posted
Keep in mind Europeans are part of “Eurasians” but the yellow represent Sardinians/Europeans @K=3 NOT Eurasians. So the astonishing thing is large amount of the “European AIM found in Luxmunda(60%) and Malawi_Hora-8100BP(~10%). Also the timeline. LaBrana at that time did carried virtually no “European” ancestry. So “European” ancestry was in deep southern sub-saharan Africa BEFORE it reached Europe. Looking at the geographic distance. That is almost across the entire African continent to Iberia. Those of you who follow this stuff, knows I called it. Dead/Cass was asked about Malawi_Hora skeleton. I said when the aDNA was publish it will be ground breaking. I speculated that this Late Stone Age African may carry Eurasian ancestry. I did not know it would be really “European” Ancestry. Lol!
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by capra: the yellow is under no obligation to be the *same* something at each K.
Assuming this is in response to my post to lioness, the samples range from 0% to >50% affinity with the Sardinian sample at K=3. Are you really trying to argue that the yellow is not obligated to stable across unmixed Africans populations, or absent, if there is not really something going on there?
So, in your view, this yellow gradient at k=3 could happen, even if there is nothing going on here (i.e. no real asymmetric closeness to Eurasians)?
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: So, in your view, this yellow gradient at k=3 could happen, even if there is nothing going on here (i.e. no real asymmetric closeness to Eurasians)?
I expect it *could* at low K, but that's not what I am saying. There is a gradient in relatedness to Eurasians of course. The point is that it doesn't have to be some discrete Afro-eurasian ancestral component which is serially replaced by more specific components. If that's what you're suggesting?
i.e. the yellow component can reflect a variety of kinds of ancestry that could have quite independent histories. Obvs there is the specific West Eurasian-related ancestry in e.g. Somalis, but also could have (for example) some western ancestry with L2a1 and B1/3, some eastern ancestry with L4b2 and B2b, some Sahelo-Sudanian ancestry with L3 and E, all related to Eurasians in different degrees and at way too deep in time for ADMIXTURE to actually pick out.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Also the timeline. LaBrana at that time did NOT carried virtually no “European” ancestry. So “European” ancestry was in deep southern sub-saharan Africa BEFORE it reached Europe.
note how fucking La Brana is almost 100% European (West Eurasian really) all the way up? - and how Europeans have trace to zero African component at any K?
then once Africans actually get noticed at K=5 most of their West Eurasian disappears, except among admixed East Africans. then at K=8 the West Eurasian splits into ultramarine WHG component which Loschbour and La Brana have ~100% and Bedouin/farmer light blue component. North Europeans still have large majority of that WHG component, Africans now get the Bedouin component instead.
even by your own retarded standards La Brana is already European, and way more European than any African lol. now try finding us an admixture graph with WHG, Europeans, and Africans where Europeans are African and not WHG.
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posted
Of course it is too deep in time to separate out because it originated in Africa! Don’t’ you get that?
Mark my word. EVERY aDNA of Africans from now on will carry “Eurasian” ancestry even going back 40,000years before AMH entered “Europe”.
Quote: “i.e. the yellow component can reflect a variety of kinds of ancestry that could have quite independent histories. Obvs there is the specific West Eurasian-related ancestry in e.g. Somalis, but also could have (for example) some western ancestry with L2a1 and B1/3, some eastern ancestry with L4b2 and B2b, some Sahelo-Sudanian ancestry with L3 and E, all related to Eurasians in different degrees and at way too deep in time for ADMIXTURE to actually pick out.”
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quote:Originally posted by capra: i.e. the yellow component can reflect a variety of kinds of ancestry that could have quite independent histories. Obvs there is the specific West Eurasian-related ancestry in e.g. Somalis, but also could have (for example) some western ancestry with L2a1 and B1/3, some eastern ancestry with L4b2 and B2b, some Sahelo-Sudanian ancestry with L3 and E, all related to Eurasians in different degrees and at way too deep in time for ADMIXTURE to actually pick out.
I agree that it could be a number of things, or a combination.
quote:Originally posted by Xyyman: Keep in mind Europeans are part of “Eurasians” but the yellow represent Sardinians/Europeans @K=3 NOT Eurasians.
Not necessarily. I look at several analyses and try to reconstruct a picture from multiple lines of evidence. In some analyses the ancestry that has affinity to Eurasians, is closer to Asians than to Europeans or it's a mixture of both. See the Hadza here at K=3. Now look at the Hadza sample in that paper with the yellow component, and it will say the opposite at k=3.
Also, in terms of their total genetic affinity (not looking at just one component) some Africans like Dinka and Mota are closer to Asians than to Europeans. This is way more complex than just any one ADMIXTURE analysis.
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posted
some people get improved fits for Mota (and other East Africans) by including a dash of Onge.
the biggest outlier stats (with Mbuti outgroup) for Skoglund et al's qpAdm models of Khoisan were with either Mixe or Denisovans... whatever the hell that means, if anything.
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quote:Originally posted by capra: [QB] some people get improved fits for Mota (and other East Africans) by including a dash of Onge.
And you know what's funny about that? When you go back to f4 statistics and try to test for excess closeness of Africans to Onge (compared to, say, East Asians), there will be no hint of shared ancestry between Onge and Africans.
Genomic analysis of Andamanese provides insights into ancient human migration into Asia and adaptation https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3621Posts: 8791 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by capra: some people get improved fits for Mota (and other East Africans) by including a dash of Onge.
the biggest outlier stats (with Mbuti outgroup) for Skoglund et al's qpAdm models of Khoisan were with either Mixe or Denisovans... whatever the hell that means, if anything.
Thats ode to an early split time for SanHG in general. All AMH populations can be seen as a subset of khoisan... with the exception of NC/Bantu & Mbuti. Mota is a downstream paraEurasian. which is why he retains East African, Eurasian Neolithic, and Eastern Eurasian HG signals... anything that can't be attributed to any of the latter is allocated to SanHG-like or rainforest HG signals. But even still, Mota is better fitted with SanHG than RHG due to RHG, like Mbuti having ancestry that Mota simply doesn't have.
Logically the story writes itself.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Also the timeline. LaBrana at that time did NOT carried virtually no “European” ancestry. So “European” ancestry was in deep southern sub-saharan Africa BEFORE it reached Europe.
note how fucking La Brana is almost 100% European (West Eurasian really) all the way up? - and how Europeans have trace to zero African component at any K?
then once Africans actually get noticed at K=5 most of their West Eurasian disappears, except among admixed East Africans. then at K=8 the West Eurasian splits into ultramarine WHG component which Loschbour and La Brana have ~100% and Bedouin/farmer light blue component. North Europeans still have large majority of that WHG component, Africans now get the Bedouin component instead.
even by your own retarded standards La Brana is already European, and way more European than any African lol. now try finding us an admixture graph with WHG, Europeans, and Africans where Europeans are African and not WHG.
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posted
Here is another prediction and to clarify. The further back in time will show an INCREASE of East Asian ancestry in ancient Africans. While an increase in "European component" will occur about the Holocene(10-8,000 years ago). Why? Because the "European" component either emerged or became dominant about 15,000years ago in the South of the Great Lakes. Prior to that the East Asian component was the dominant "Eurasian" component in Africa. That is why San carried much more "Native American" component than other Africans. I will like to see how Mbo/A00 vs Khoi-San line up against Native Americans.
This is becoming easy.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Of course it is too deep in time to separate out because it originated in Africa! Don’t’ you get that?
Mark my word. EVERY aDNA of Africans from now on will carry “Eurasian” ancestry even going back 40,000years before AMH entered “Europe”.
Quote: “i.e. the yellow component can reflect a variety of kinds of ancestry that could have quite independent histories. Obvs there is the specific West Eurasian-related ancestry in e.g. Somalis, but also could have (for example) some western ancestry with L2a1 and B1/3, some eastern ancestry with L4b2 and B2b, some Sahelo-Sudanian ancestry with L3 and E, all related to Eurasians in different degrees and at way too deep in time for ADMIXTURE to actually pick out.”
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posted
Ok. SMH. Again! Siiigh! Several lies by Capra. First, this is not unsupervised. It is supervised. In other words it is manipulated to show the relatedness of La Brana to modern Europeans. In other words they "chose" the SNP to draw the relationship. More deception by Capra typical of modern Europeans.
Aside from what is cited below you can tell what is going on at K=3. They are using Khoisan to represent "Africans' not Mbuti or YRI. That is why some Khoi_San groups show no "Eurasian/European" admixture @K=2. That is a dead giveaway that we are looking at a supervised cluster chart. Also notice Somalis are at 60%European/Eurasian @K3. . Yoruba, Hadza etc also carry a high frequency of "Eurasian" AIM. We are looking at the wrong set of AIM. This is NOT unsupervised.
And if you don't believe me.... here....from **YOUR*** source.
Oh! And I cited Near East Bedouins being Africans for the newbies. A freebie. My treat!
--------------------------------- QUOTE: "Human Origins dataset curation The Human Origins array consists of 14 panels of SNPs for which the ascertainment is well known8,61. All population genetics analysis were carried out on a set of 594,924 autosomal SNPs, ****after restricting to sites that had >90% completeness ****across 7 different batches of sequencing, and that had >97.5% concordance with at least one of two subsets of samples for which whole genome sequencing data was also *****available****. The total dataset consists of 2,722 individuals, which we filtered to 2,345 individuals (203 populations) after removing outlier individuals or relatives based on visual inspection of PCA plots14,62 or model-based clustering analysis13. Whole genome amplified (WGA) individuals were not used in analysis, except for a Saami individual who we included because of the special interest of this population for Northeastern European population history (Extended Data Fig. 7).
Admixture proportions for Stuttgart in the absence of a Near Eastern ancient genome We used Loschbour and BedouinB as surrogates for “Unknown hunter-gatherer” and Near Eastern (NE) farmer populations that contributed to Stuttgart (SI13). Ancient Near Eastern ancestry in Stuttgart is estimated by the f4-ratio8,15 f4(Outgroup, X; Loschbour, Stuttgart)/f4(Outgroup, X; Loschbour, NE). A complication is that*** BedouinB is a mixture of NE and African ancestry***. We therefore **SUBSTRACTED** 17 the effects of African ancestry using estimates of the BedouinB African admixture proportion from ADMIXTURE (SI9) or ALDER68." ----------------------------------------------
Modern Europeans(like Iberians/La Brana homeland) are virtually purely EEF. That is why carried virtually no modern European DNA. LA Brana carried no EEF. Stop BSing Capra. SMH
quote: Originally posted by xyyman: Also the timeline. LaBrana at that time did NOT carried virtually no “European” ancestry. So “European” ancestry was in deep southern sub-saharan Africa BEFORE it reached Europe.
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posted
You white people think you have the right to BS the rest of the world with your games. Sorry this brotha is on to your trickery.
I just notice this. That is why it is sometimes good to re-hash these old papers. Sicilians carry *****ZERO***** La Brana AIM. Yes, you heard right! Sicilians are virtual pure Neolithic Africans with traces of ancient Asian ancestry. I can't make this stuff up. Lol! Just in case you cannot do the math. Sicilians and Iberians Will carry the least amount of La Brana ancestry, see "black" in the pie-chart which means La Brana has no relation to Sicilians which means La Brana is NOT a modern European.
Dinkum if you are reading this...that is why you cannot "eye-ball" anthropology!!! Look under the skin...check out the DNA. There something called convergent evolution. Not all Negros are from Africa. Just saying.
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posted
Notice WHG is virtually non-existent in Sicily also corroborating Lazaridis. The data is consistent. Notice As we head East and North the black increases(pie chart). What they have done is combined all Eurasian Hunter gatherers . That is why as I said Makrani, Onge and Melanesians are the best representation of ancient Europeans.
La Brana carries virtually no modern European ancestry because modern European are recent Africans ... Skoglund et al 2017
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posted
Five Eurasian/European population carry no WHG. Sicilian, Greeks, Southern Iberians, Maltese and "Ashkenazi" Jews. But we know that they have tend to group (Neolithic)Bedouins with Ashkenazis . I know their game! Bedoiuns represent the purest form of the African Neolithics that went East to Arabia. Bifurcation taking place near the Nile at the Sahara. Notice ANE has higher frequency in the East of the Sahara through Eurasia. McEvoy, Arnaiz-Villens, Sergi, Coon, xyyman all had it correct.
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posted
lol nice try xyyman, if only you had the slightest idea what the methods you are desperately cutting and pasting actually meant.
we all know you pick and show your 'evidence' based strictly on whether you think it can fit into your retarded fantasies. waste of fucking time, man, and kind of repellent, like spending your day stroking it in public.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: First, this is not unsupervised. It is supervised. In other words it is manipulated to show the relatedness of La Brana to modern Europeans. In other words they "chose" the SNP to draw the relationship. More deception by Capra typical of modern Europeans.
that's not what "supervised" means, you cretin. in a supervised run the ADMIXTURE program creates its components based on preselected populations rather than the algorithm creating them during the run. you have to set the program to do it, it's not just any change that could affect how the run comes out.
quote:Aside from what is cited below you can tell what is going on at K=3. They are using Khoisan to represent "Africans' not Mbuti or YRI. That is why some Khoi_San groups show no "Eurasian/European" admixture @K=2. That is a dead giveaway that we are looking at a supervised cluster chart.
no dumbass that is what ADMIXTURE does unsupervised. the program is doing that because there are a lot of Khoisan in this particular run. ADMIXTURE runs aren't consistent, as would be fucking obvious if you ever actually thought about what you were seeing instead of skimming for something you can crop and paste
quote:"Human Origins dataset curation The Human Origins array consists of 14 panels of SNPs for which the ascertainment is well known. All population genetics analysis were carried out on a set of 594,924 autosomal SNPs, after restricting to sites that had 90% completeness across 7 different batches of sequencing, and that had 97.5% concordance with at least one of two subsets of samples for which whole genome sequencing data was also available. The total dataset consists of 2,722 individuals, which we filtered to 2,345 individuals (203 populations) after removing outlier individuals or relatives based on visual inspection of PCA plots or model-based clustering analysis."
you idiot, of course they selected for SNPs which they have good data for and got rid of relatives. they filtered the data in Skoglund et al too, yet you claim *their* ADMIXTURE run is valid. the data is always filtered and who goes in the run is always chosen by someone.
quote:Admixture proportions for Stuttgart in the absence of a Near Eastern ancient genome We used Loschbour and BedouinB as surrogates for “Unknown hunter-gatherer” and Near Eastern (NE) farmer populations that contributed to Stuttgart (SI13). Ancient Near Eastern ancestry in Stuttgart is estimated by the f4-ratio(Outgroup, X; Loschbour, Stuttgart)/f4(Outgroup, X; Loschbour, NE). A complication is that BedouinB is a mixture of NE and African ancestry. We therefore subtracted the effects of African ancestry using estimates of the BedouinB African admixture proportion from ADMIXTURE (SI9) or ALDER68."
moron, that's talking about the f4 admixture ratio, not the ADMIXTURE graph.
ok that's enough xyyman for a while, i may cause myself actual brain-damage
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quote:Aside from what is cited below you can tell what is going on at K=3. They are using Khoisan to represent "Africans' not Mbuti or YRI. That is why some Khoi_San groups show no "Eurasian/European" admixture @K=2. That is a dead giveaway that we are looking at a supervised cluster chart.
no dumbass that is what ADMIXTURE does unsupervised. the program is doing that because there are a lot of Khoisan in this particular run. ADMIXTURE runs aren't consistent, as would be fucking obvious if you ever actually thought about what you were seeing instead of skimming for something you can crop and paste
^This, Skoglunds Admixture run basically reveal a gradient from Ju_Hoan to Sardinia (Neolithic Europe). Being that in the absene of YRI, the combination of heterogeneity and shared frequency within the Ju-Hoan gives the strongest likely hood for a singular population. Xyyman can show us another plot where the San HGs shows Eurasian signals at Low K... He used to spam that.
However I was gonna let him rock for the fact that the argument can be made about Early African-San HG-like populations representing a later expansion into Europe. I've been messing with the Idea for a while that there might be recent shared undetectable ancestry in SSA and west Eurasians. One of the few ways I find that achievable is if this mysterious population was relatively undifferentiated (from ancient founder) and possibly ancestral to both West Eurasians and SSAs. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009649;p=2#000053
This is possibly seen in the ancient Moroccan DNA. who I speculate to have introgressed Ibermaurasian HG DNA. They lack SSA admixture related to any modern African population which would be detectable via Dstats or even genetic distance however behaves like an intermediate population to SSAs and Neolithic Europeans. The Idea that an Ancient population is made closer to SSA populations by mixing with Eurasians is fun to play with when looking at the Neolithic Moroccans. See the transition between IAM -> KEB.
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posted
Nowadays some scientists are claiming Haplogroup E is EURASIAN and never originated in Ethiopia. The true reality is, the oldest modern humans are NORTH AFRICANS and are at least 100 000 years older than any Ethiopian ancient human remains.
Both MTDNA L3 and Haplogroup E are likely to be Eurasian in origin and back migrated into Africa:
posted
Capra said: "that's not what "supervised" means, you cretin. in a supervised run the ADMIXTURE program creates its components based on "PRESELECTED" populations rather than the algorithm creating them during the run. you have to set the program to do it, it's not just any change that could affect how the run comes out."
Lazaridis said: "Human Origins dataset curation The Human Origins array consists of 14 panels of SNPs for which the ascertainment is well known. All population genetics analysis were carried out on a set of 594,924 autosomal SNPs, after restricting to sites that had 90% completeness across 7 different batches of sequencing, and that had 97.5% concordance with at least one of two subsets of samples for which whole genome sequencing data was also available. The total dataset consists of 2,722 individuals, which we filtered to 2,345 individuals (203 populations) after removing outlier individuals or relatives based on visual inspection of PCA plots or model-based clustering analysis."
Capra said: "you idiot, of course they selected for SNPs which they have good data for and got rid of relatives. they filtered the data in Skoglund et al too, yet you claim *their* ADMIXTURE run is valid. the data is always filtered and who goes in the run is always chosen by someone. "
Xyyman said: I rest my case. preselected=supervised, As I pointed out Sicilian carry's **zero** WHG. Iberians very little. Don’t believe me? Ask Lazardis. What does it all mean? As I said. Simple logic. It is impossible for La Brana to be related or carry modern Euros DNA like Iberians and Sicilians because these modern populations are almost entirely from a Neolithic population. Logic 101. Carry on with you BS Capra. Siigh Europeans and their circular logic. SMH
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Quote: same data, ***consistently*** demonstrate a significantly more recent relationship between Europe and Africa than between East Asia and Africa. Using simulated populations, we show that under the single-wave ‘‘Out of Africa’’ model,
While the exact bias is difficult to estimate (Sved et al. 2008), it appears that post-divergence migration rates from Africa to Europe would need to be approximately CONSTANT because we observe consistent ratios of TF and TLD at different genetic distances. Thus, the observations are suggestive that GREATER MIGRATION TO EUROPE FROM SUB-SAHARAN AFRICAN HAS BEEN A LONG-TERM PHENOMENON. Y-chromosome and mtDNA lineages are
quote:Aside from what is cited below you can tell what is going on at K=3. They are using Khoisan to represent "Africans' not Mbuti or YRI. That is why some Khoi_San groups show no "Eurasian/European" admixture @K=2. That is a dead giveaway that we are looking at a supervised cluster chart.
no dumbass that is what ADMIXTURE does unsupervised. the program is doing that because there are a lot of Khoisan in this particular run. ADMIXTURE runs aren't consistent, as would be fucking obvious if you ever actually thought about what you were seeing instead of skimming for something you can crop and paste
^This, Skoglunds Admixture run basically reveal a gradient from Ju_Hoan to Sardinia (Neolithic Europe). Being that in the absene of YRI, the combination of heterogeneity and shared frequency within the Ju-Hoan gives the strongest likely hood for a singular population. Xyyman can show us another plot where the San HGs shows Eurasian signals at Low K... He used to spam that.
However I was gonna let him rock for the fact that the argument can be made about Early African-San HG-like populations representing a later expansion into Europe. I've been messing with the Idea for a while that there might be recent shared undetectable ancestry in SSA and west Eurasians. One of the few ways I find that achievable is if this mysterious population was relatively undifferentiated (from ancient founder) and possibly ancestral to both West Eurasians and SSAs. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009649;p=2#000053
This is possibly seen in the ancient Moroccan DNA. who I speculate to have introgressed Ibermaurasian HG DNA. They lack SSA admixture related to any modern African population which would be detectable via Dstats or even genetic distance however behaves like an intermediate population to SSAs and Neolithic Europeans. The Idea that an Ancient population is made closer to SSA populations by mixing with Eurasians is fun to play with when looking at the Neolithic Moroccans. See the transition between IAM -> KEB. [/QB]
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posted
Hey bro. Have you have analyzed any research papers yourself instead of citing bloggers? This is the wrong section and topic for you. You are in the wrong section. Have you ever looked at the yDNA E geographical phyloTree? Have you ever analyzed the paper you are citing? Do you know the premise or hypothesis for their claim of E back-migrating or mtDNA-L3.
First off the this paper is using an "experimental" dating method based upon mutation rate NOT ancestral clades. What does that mean? Exactly what it is...experimental to test a hypothesis.
Is OOA true? Absolutely! Why? On both YDNA and mtDNA haplotree the ancestral clades are found in AFRICA.
All ancestral clades of YDNA E are found in Africa and the subclades are found outside Africa and diminishes as we move further away FROM Africa. The same goes for mtDNA R0a and N. mtDNA M is debatable but it has been proven that M1 is African in origin and this is on the first branch of the mtDNA M Tree. So the logical conclusion is mtDNA M like R0a/N is ALSO of AFRICAN origin.
As I said if you can't follow you are in the wrong section. So follow but ssshhhh...listen.
Here! Check this out.
quote:Originally posted by Dinkum: Nowadays some scientists are claiming Haplogroup E is EURASIAN and never originated in Ethiopia. The true reality is, the oldest modern humans are NORTH AFRICANS and are at least 100 000 years older than any Ethiopian ancient human remains.
Both MTDNA L3 and Haplogroup E are likely to be Eurasian in origin and back migrated into Africa:
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posted
Again I am right…. ----- Nice find Brada. You would of thought I wrote the piece. Lol!
The only thing I take exception to is they suggest a "middle Eastern" origin of this black man Englishman. That is a lie. Again they are trying to distance themselves from Africa. It is geographically improbable for him to be from the "Middle East". He is African/North African. They affirm, as I, for some reason Europeans remained black until the Neolithics arrived. Within the last 5000years.
Quote: "The discovery shows that the genes for lighter skin became widespread in European populations far later than originally thought – and that skin colour was not always a proxy for geographic origin in the way it is often seen to be today." "The results pointed to a Middle Eastern origin for Cheddar Man, suggesting that his ancestors would have left Africa,"
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posted
As I said. Someone is going to break rank. It is coming.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I remember I asked Davidski one time to run TreeMix analysis to prove my point. He said he will did came back a few days later to backed out the agreement. Instead he deleted the post(s).
I know. That's really how they are. Can speak from experience.
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