E-Z830 (E1b1b1b2) This is a recently discovered subclade which has not yet been included in most haplogroup trees, E-Z830 includes the confirmed subclades of E-M123, E-V1515 (E-M293, E-V42, E-V6, E-V92), and E-Z830*, and is a sibling clade to E-L19. Currently, the E-M35 phylogeny project recognizes four distinct clusters of Z830* carriers, two of which are exclusively Jewish in origin. The remaining two are significantly smaller, and include scattered individuals in Germany, Spain, Latin America, Egypt, and Ethiopia.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Yes, this connection between North East Africa (Egypt, Sudan and Ethiopia) has always been noted by many people. Physically we could be talking about a population of Africans with "fine" features and straight to curly hair which can be found across a large swath of North and Northeast Africa.
Given the difference in appearance between various known representatives of the "first wave" groups to settle Asia the question becomes did these differences appear after they got to Asia or did some of these differences arise in or Near Africa?
It is quite possible there were varying features among the different 'waves' of populations leaving Africa.
The only difficulty is proving how much of the ASI-Mota-like is recent enough to qualify as recent African ancestry, as opposed Aterian-like pre-Toba ancestry associated with various OOA migrations.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: For instance, tools of the same general type that were widespread in Africa during the time of Gladysvale hairs, have been found all the way in Pakistan and beyond. [These humans] are early offshoots, not [closely related to] us.
quote:Two particular forms of point technology are highlighted: a) retouched points, and particularly those with hafting modifications similar to Aterian points; and b) Nubian point cores. Both forms of point technology have played a significant role in guiding the systematics of Middle Stone Age assemblages across North Africa. The presence of tanged tools in MSA assemblages in the Sahara has provided the basis for labelling a site or assemblage as Aterian, whereas the appearance of Nubian point cores in assemblages in NE Africa led to the identification of Nubian Complex sites. Recent reassessment of North African MSA assemblages has indicated that underlying variability within artefact assemblages is not structured by the presence or absence of these conspicuous artefact forms, but within geographic and ecologically delimited zones (Scerri et al., 2014b). Nevertheless, the appearance of Nubian cores in Arabia has been linked to potential dispersals from Africa (Rose et al., 2011; Crassard and Hilbert, 2013; Usik et al., 2013), while ongoing research is identifying retouched point forms in diverse settings (Petraglia et al., 2011, 2012; Scerri et al., in this volume). Associating particular lithic types with biological populations is inherently problematic, yet the identification of either Nubian cores or retouched points that are comparable to African MSA points in South Asia would remove the proposed obstacle for Middle Palaeolithic dispersal models
Of course, this only applies to the Mota-like ancestry linked to the ASI component, not the E-Z830-linked ancestry and other more recent African ancestry in South Asia (e.g. Arab-Indian sickle cell haplotype). These are much more recent and count as recent African ancestry.
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We found that 17 individuals, all of whom were Shia Muslims, carried YAP retrotransposition insertion derived haplogroup E. This is the first report of haplogroup E observed in Shias, and its high frequency excludes the possible false positives. Presence of YAP lineage was further confirmed by the G→A transition at M145 and the G→C transition at M203 UEP. Further resolution of the YAP + lineage in our population was into E haplogroup, which was identified by M40-A allele. All 17 individuals had a G→C mutation at M35, which is the designated marker to distinguish E1b1b1 (major subclade of E) from other E sub-haplogroups (Karafet et al. 2008). Importantly, E1b1b1 is the most frequently observed haplogroup in the Africa/Mid-East region. Therefore, our observation suggests that Shia Muslims might carry some African/Middle-Eastern ancestral alleles.
Am J Hum Genet. 2006 Feb; 78(2): 202–221. Published online 2005 Dec 16. doi: 10.1086/499411
Polarity and Temporality of High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists
Sanghamitra Sengupta,1
the presence of HG E lineages, thought to possibly be associated with the spread of agriculturalists in southeastern Europe (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2004), are absent in India except in specific populations known to have recent African heritage (Thangaraj et al. 1999).
Afghanistan's Ethnic Groups Share a Y-Chromosomal Heritage Structured by Historical Events Marc Haber 2012
Haplogroups autochthonous to India [15]; L-M20, H-M69, and R2a-M124 were found more (p = 0.004) in Pashtuns (20.41%) and Tajiks (19.64%) than in Uzbeks (5.88%) and Hazaras (5%). E1b1b1-M35 was found in Hazaras (5%) and Uzbeks (5.88%) but not in Pashtuns and Tajiks. RM network of E1b1b1-M35 (Figure S1C) shows that Afghanistan's lineages are correlated with Middle Easterners and Iranians. We also note the presence of the African B-M60 only in Hazara, with a relatively recent common founder ancestor from East Africa as shown in the RM network (Figure S1D).
The E1b1b1-M35 lineages in some Pakistani Pashtun were previously traced to a Greek origin brought by Alexander's invasions [48]. However, RM network of E1b1b1-M35 found that Afghanistan's lineages are correlated with Middle Easterners and Iranians but not with populations from the Balkans.
The Islamic invasion in the 7th century CE left an immense cultural impact on the region, with reports of Arabs settling in Afghanistan and mixing with the local population [49]. However the genetic signal of this expansion is not clearly evident: some Middle Eastern lineages such as E1b1b1-M35 are present in Afghanistan, but the most prevalent lineage among Arabs (J1-M267) was only found in one Afghan subject. In addition, the three Afghans that identified their ethnicity as Arab, had lineages autochthonous to India.
We also note that three Hazara subjects belonged to haplogroup B-M60, which is very rare outside Africa. RM network shows that the subjects had a recent founding ancestor from East Africa, which could have been brought to Afghanistan through slave trade. This shows that the genetic ethnic boundaries have been selectively permeable, however the history of the rules of assimilation in this region over time are not yet clearly understood.
posted
Hope you're not trying to say E-Z830 is non-African or contentious in origin. Because posting a map with no commentary would be a real cowardly way of doing it.
Another Lioness post with no commentary of her own:
quote:E-Z830 (E1b1b1b2) This is a recently discovered subclade which has not yet been included in most haplogroup trees, E-Z830 includes the confirmed subclades of E-M123, E-V1515 (E-M293, E-V42, E-V6, E-V92), and E-Z830*, and is a sibling clade to E-L19. Currently, the E-M35 phylogeny project recognizes four distinct clusters of Z830* carriers, two of which are exclusively Jewish in origin. The remaining two are significantly smaller, and include scattered individuals in Germany, Spain, Latin America, Egypt, and Ethiopia.
You're a funny guy. Do you have something to say with these highlights of E-Z830*'s mainly non-African distribution?
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Hope you're not trying to say E-Z830 is non-African or contentious in origin. Because posting a map with no commentary would be a real cowardly way of doing it.
I don't know why you hope that but I don't don't know what the origin is. I haven't read anything about it's highest diversity yet. And I'm just giving you FYI about Hg E in South Asia and the distribution of E-Z830 which is in an early phase of record right now. If you look at the haplozone, about 40 individuals in various places, Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia, Spain etc. Notably nothing in Southern Asia.
Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots Alexandros Heraclides, 2017
E-M123 is found at very low frequencies among both mainland Greeks and Turks (apart from South Turks, 9%). Recently this haplogroup has been found in human remains from Bronze Age Armenia[53], while a subclade ancestral to E-M123 (E-PF1961/Z830) has been found among Natufian cultures from Epipaleolithic Israel[54] pointing to this being a South Levantine Neolithic haplogroup, probably already present in Cyprus from prehistoric years.
[54]the big homie Lazzy Laz - genetic structure of the world's first farmers.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Hope you're not trying to say E-Z830 is non-African or contentious in origin. Because posting a map with no commentary would be a real cowardly way of doing it.
I don't know why you hope that but I don't don't know what the origin is. I haven't read anything about it's highest diversity yet. And I'm just giving you FYI about Hg E in South Asia and the distribution of E-Z830 which is in an early phase of record right now. If you look at the haplozone, [b]about 40 individuals in various places, Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia, Spain etc. Notably nothing in Southern Asia.
Let me put it like this. If by posting those E-Z830*s you were trying to argue that Natufians and South Asian E-Z830s form a clade with 40 mostly non-Africans to the exclusion of Africans, you're wrong. The V1515 subclade contains more E-Z830 samples and diversity than the 40 mostly non-Africans you keep posting.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The V1515 subclade contains more E-Z830 samples
doesn't make sense
Feel free to explain..
I bet you liked the idea of Natufians and ancient Pakistanis being isolated from Africans inside E-Z830. Sorry to burst your bubble.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Let me put it like this. If by posting those E-Z830*s you were trying to argue that Natufians and South Asian E-Z830s form a clade with 40 mostly non-Africans to the exclusion of Africans, you're wrong. The V1515 subclade contains more E-Z830 samples and diversity than the 40 mostly non-Africans you keep posting.
40 modern day E-Z830-mi carriers are interesting to note. These include Ethiopians, Egyptians an Eritrean, a Tunisian. I haven't noticed any in South Asia though (although there is some E in Pakistan, Afghanistan and India) Why you are talking about exclusion I don't know. Don't kill the messenger. I went to post the E-Z830 carriers and what I got was what I got.
However this is the modern world and it's easy to travel.
E-Z830 is ancestor to V1515 but that doesn't matter.
The topic are these E-Z830 (E1b1b1b2) carriers in Pakistan of 3,000 years ago in the Swat Valley
And I am noting Natufians also E-Z830 of 15,000 to 11,500 years ago located in the African extension
quote:These include Ethiopians, Egyptians an Eritrean, a Tunisian.
quote:E-Z830 is ancestor to V1515 but that doesn't matter.
Now she wants to emphasize Africans and acknowledge E-V1515.
But before you posted about four clusters of which two were exclusively Jewish clusters and none exclusively African. What is there significance to Natufians and Pakistanis?
quote:E-Z830 is ancestor to V1515 but that doesn't matter.
See. I knew this is what you were doing. You're trying to exclude and downplay African E-Z830/E-V1515 and try to make it seem like those 40 mostly non-African E-Z830 have a special affinity to Pakistani and Natufian E-Z830 carriers. Like I said, you can just come out and say it.
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posted
Lioness thinks the asterisk (i.e. E1b1b1b2*) has some special significance and that these are parental, while V1515 is a mere "descendant". In her mind, this presumably makes these 40 mostly non-Africans "parental" to Natufians and presumably also to most African E-Z830 carriers.
bioRxiv preprint first posted online Feb. 20, 2018; doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/268524. The copyright holder for this preprint (which was not peer-reviewed) is the author/funder.
Ancestral heterogeneity of ancient Eurasians 2018 Daniel Shriner
Abstract 2 Supervised clustering or projection analysis is a staple technique in population genetic analysis. 3 The utility of this technique depends critically on the reference panel. The most commonly used 4 reference panel in the analysis of ancient DNA to date is based on the Human Origins array. We 5 previously described a larger reference panel that captures more ancestries on the global level. 6 Here, we reanalyzed DNA data from 279 ancient Eurasians using our reference panel. We found 7 substantially more ancestral heterogeneity than has been reported. Our reanalysis provides 8 evidence against a resurgence of Western hunter-gatherer ancestry in the Middle to Late 9 Neolithic and evidence for a common ancestor of farmers characterized by Western Asian 10 ancestry, a transition of the spread of agriculture from demic to cultural diffusion, at least two 11 migrations between the Pontic-Caspian steppes and Bronze Age Europe, and a sub-Saharan 12 African component in Natufians that localizes to present-day southern Ethiopia.
The Natufian sample consisted of 61.2% Arabian, 21.2% Northern African, 10.9% Western 12 Asian, and 6.8% Omotic ancestry(Figure 1F and Table 1). Previously, no significant sharing of 13 ancestral components with sub-Saharan African populations was found to accompany the 14 presence of E1b1b1b2 Y haplogroups8. E1b1b1b1a-M81, but not E1b1b1b2-Z830, is presently 15 common among Berbers in North Africa14. However, E1b1b1b1a-M81 has a time to most recent 16 common ancestor of only 2,300 (95% confidence interval [1900,2700]) years before present15 17 and therefore was not prevalent in Northern African ancestry during the Epipaleolithic.
Ancestry 18 shared by Omotic-speaking peoples is found predominantly in present-day southern Ethiopia and 19 is associated with haplogroup E, thus revealing a plausible source. The transition in the Levant 20 from the Epipaleolithic to the Neolithic period involved an increase of Arabian ancestry at the 21 expense of Northern African and Omotic ancestries. The transition from the Neolithic period to 22 the Bronze Age involved the acquisition of principally Western Asian ancestry, with smaller 23 contributions of Southern European and Southern Asian ancestries.
Lazaridis et al. suggested that this change resulted from admixture from people resembling Chalcolithic Iranians. This 2 putative source is unlikely because none of the ancient Iranian samples had Southern European 3 ancestry; a Caucasian source, such as the Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age Armenians, provides 4 a better fit.Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Lioness thinks the asterisk (i.e. E1b1b1b2*) has some special significance and that these are parental, while V1515 is a mere "descendant". In her mind, this presumably makes these 40 mostly non-Africans "parental" to Natufians and presumably also to most African E-Z830 carriers.
again, don't try to be a mind reader because it's actually your own mind playing tricks on you
asterisk or no asterisk V1515 is descendant of E-Z830
I just said modern locations are subject to modern travel and Natufian E-Z830 is much more pertinent and older to the Swat Valley Pakistan samples and I have just posted Ethiopian Omotic ancestry associated ( and they are in the modern samples as well, of the 40 !!) wake up
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posted
Then explain why you repeatedly single out and draw attention to the 40 mostly non-Africans. That is not the behaviour of someone who acknowledges that the most diversity of Z830 is in Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] Then explain why you repeatedly single out and draw attention to the 40 mostly non-Africans.
I didn't single out anything, that is bullshit. I posted the people in that database who were Z830 If you don't like that information it's not my problem
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: That is not the behaviour of someone who acknowledges that the most diversity of Z830 is in Africa.
I don't acknowledge the most diversity of Z830 is in Africa because I have not seen a source speaking of the diversity of Z830 and there might not be one
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posted
That still doesn't answer why you posted those 40 mostly non-African E-Z380 carriers and related them to the samples of this thread.
See why I get suspicious? You don't post commentary under your cut and paste jobs and you don't clarify what special relevance the 40 mostly non-Africans have to Natufians and Pakistanis.
Maybe I'm completely wrong. But you still haven't answered why are you specifically linking these 40 mostly non-African E-Z830 carriers to Natufians and Pakistanis.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I didn't single out anything, that is bullshit. I posted the people in that database who were Z830 If you don't like that information it's not my problem
Why didn't you post African-specific clusters of E-Z830? Very simple and legitimate question. But you're suspiciously evasive at this point.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Why didn't you post African-specific clusters of E-Z830? Very simple and legitimate question.
This thread is about E1b found in a 3,000 yo gravesite in Pakistan. The YDNA was E-Z830. Later I also realized it was the same clade found in much older Natufians I then went to look for information about that haplogroup and I found that it is found in various places including Africa. So why would I only post data about Africa?
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posted
You still didn't answer any of the questions I asked, not even the one you're responding to right now.
You're answering a question with a question, and I never asked why you don't "post exclusively about Africa".
My guess is you posted the 40 mostly non-Africans because you believe the asterisk means parental , and you liked the idea of Eurasians having "parental" E-Z830. Why else would you dismiss E-V1515 as "a descendant that doesn't matter"?
quote:E-Z830 is ancestor to V1515 but that doesn't matter.
But never mind. I'm not going to waste my time getting coherent answers out of you. Why? So you can make it seem like I'm harassing you with figments of my imagination? Like I said, you're a funny guy.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: You still didn't answer any of the questions I asked, not even the one you're responding to right now.
You're answering a question with a question, and I never asked why you don't "post exclusively about Africa".
My guess is you posted the 40 mostly non-Africans because you believe the asterisk means parental , and you liked the idea of Eurasians having "parental" E-Z830. Why else would you dismiss E-V1515 as "a descendant"?
But never mind. I'm not going to waste my time getting answers out of you.
This thread is about E1b found in a 3,000 yo gravesite in Pakistan. The YDNA was E-Z830. Later I also realized it was the same clade found in much older Natufians I then went to look for information about that haplogroup and I found that it is found in various places including Africa. Why would I post about E-V1515?
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: You still didn't answer any of the questions I asked, not even the one you're responding to right now.
You're answering a question with a question, and I never asked why you don't "post exclusively about Africa".
My guess is you posted the 40 mostly non-Africans because you believe the asterisk means parental , and you liked the idea of Eurasians having "parental" E-Z830. Why else would you dismiss E-V1515 as "a descendant"?
But never mind. I'm not going to waste my time getting answers out of you.
This thread is about E1b found in a 3,000 yo gravesite in Pakistan. The YDNA was E-Z830. Later I also realized it was the same clade found in much older Natufians I then went to look for information about that haplogroup and I found that it is found in various places including Africa. Why would I post about E-V1515?
Keep buck dancing.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ! But yDNA A and E-M2 is found far INLAND in Turkey my man! E-M2 is found in ALL ethnic groups in Iran and predominates around the old Persia City/state. These were African men fugking ElMaestro.
what were African men doing there?
Exploring?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Punctuated bursts in human male demography inferred from 1,244 worldwide Y-chromosome sequences G. David Poznik1,2,*, Yali Xue3
Of the clades resulting from the four deepest branching events, all but one are exclusive to Africa, and the TMRCA of all non-African lineages (i.e., the TMRCA of haplogroups DE and CF) is ~76 ky. We see a major increase in the number of lineages outside Africa ~50–55 kya, perhaps reflecting the geographic expansion and differentiation of Eurasian populations as they settled the vast expanse of these continents. Consistent with previous proposals13, a parsimonious interpretation of the phylogeny is that the predominant African haplogroup, E, arose outside the continent. This model of geographic segregation within the CT clade requires just one continental haplogroup exchange (E to Africa), rather than three (D, C, and F out of Africa). Furthermore, the timing of this putative return to Africa—between the emergence of E and its differentiation within Africa by 58 kya—is consistent with proposals, based on non-Y data, of abundant gene flow between Africa and nearby regions of Asia 50–80 kya14.
Even if this were so, this would mean all of Africa, not just north and east Africa are Eurasian or Eurasian admixed. And people living in Africa would still be oldest. This offers no win that I can see. Eurocentrism would have to create a new way to establish genetic Eurasian "identity" outside of OOA migrations. Why would R and U in North Africa make a group of people non-African, but E is allowed to be African? I mean it to would have supposedly arrived from Asia after all.
Co-signed, and it means that supposed Africans are actually Asians (Asiatics). So that means they also brought Hg R etc. to Africa. Let’s see how this is going to unfold. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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