posted
i remember reading Champollion saying that the Tamahu were Caucasians of Asia and Europe. could there be any truth to this statement? when did this view change, by whom, and for what reason did it change. i notice that ancient Egyptians never made maps so what makes them so sure that the so called Tamahu were Libyans
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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posted
During the invansion of Egypt by the people of the Sea, Europeans enter the Delta Region of Egypt. Most researchers link these "whites" to the Berbers. The whites who were part of the Sea People invansion were called the Meshwesh. Researchers link the Meshwesh to modern Berbers.
The tehenu and Meshwesh
The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time .
This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).
The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with during his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.
Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people (who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).
The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.
The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".
The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64).
The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People .
David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).
The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of the army organized into "family or tribal ' units under the leadership of a "great one". As result to understand why the Asian and Tehenu figures on the Table of Nations are identified differently you have use both the pictorical and textual material from the reign of Ramses III to understand the representations.
As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu.
The personage that is second from the Egyptians which is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu, was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was labled Asian. You can find out more about this reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy (pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990. In the Table of Nation figure B we see the traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock, shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh
The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status.
David O'Connor makes it clear that there was "marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41). The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign. Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu, later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live near Cape Verde The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic type [that] are markedly different from the Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing, 1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered: Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered from the Egyptians to be chracteristic of ancient Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or in some way had these rtraits imposed upon them by the Egyptians" (p.74). It is my opinion that given the organiztion of the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups', sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of time Indo-European speaking people later to be known as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but maintaining their traditional beards,. The original Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase their number and possibily conquer Egypt.
It is interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because they brought their cattle and other animals with them when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples: Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield. The Nehasyu were ancient members of the Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman.
In conclusion, the names for the personages in the Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled correctly. These personages were recorded in the the Tables based on the military and family units were attached too, not the country identifiable by their dress.
Annotated Bibliography
(huge bibliography deleted- taking up too much space, it was longer than the post itself-lioness)
[ 06. April 2018, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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West Africa and Saharan Africa were part of Atlantis.
.
.
quote: For it is related in our records how once upon a time your State stayed the course of a mighty host, which, starting from a distant point in the Atlantic ocean, was insolently advancing to attack the whole of Europe, and Asia to boot. For the ocean there was at that time navigable; for in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as you say, 'the pillars of Heracles,' there lay an island which was larger than Libya and Asia together; and it was possible for the travelers of that time to cross from it to the other islands, and from the islands to the whole of the continent over against them which encompasses that veritable ocean. For all that we have here, lying within the mouth of which we speak, is evidently a haven having a narrow entrance; but that yonder is a real ocean, and the land surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, of great and marvelous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many other islands also and parts of the continent
posted
these are nothing more but conjectures the libu(ribu) or tamahu could still be Europeans because they were associated with the west
libu could mean libya or ribu could mean Europe(euribe)
tamahu were ivory colored (white) north African people are not white
north Africans are the same color as the Asiatics
there is documentation that Egypt had many wars with Europeans such as the goths, Thracians, Spaniards, and Scythians via sesotris
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: these are nothing more but conjectures the libu(ribu) or tamahu could still be Europeans because they were associated with the west
libu could mean libya or ribu could mean Europe(euribe)
tamahu were ivory colored (white) north African people are not white
north Africans are the same color as the Asiatics
there is documentation that Egypt had many wars with Europeans such as the goths, Thracians, Spaniards, and Scythians via sesotris
I seem to have misplaced my resources detailing these things, could you please quote their locations in your sources - please?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: tamahu are from the west, that is all we know
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Tamahu in Ancient Egyptian means land of the North literally
Ta means land mahu, mehu, or mehti means North
so Tamahu literally means Northlander
None of the Tamahu present African animals as tribute to the pharaoh, they only give cattle. I am convinced that the tamahu are really europeans. I am convinced that White Egyptology are lying about the tamahu to get away with a white north Africa and erase the history of European submission to Africa/Egypt.
I believe Jean-François Champollion indeed was right about the tamahu
^^ just re-posting this last quote for the record, the questioner's opening remark from a recent thread that I locked in Deshet due to this original not that old thread on virtually the same topic
(note this topic doesn't exist anymore in Deshret forum)
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: During the invansion of Egypt by the people of the Sea, Europeans enter the Delta Region of Egypt. Most researchers link these "whites" to the Berbers. The whites who were part of the Sea People invansion were called the Meshwesh. Researchers link the Meshwesh to modern Berbers.
The tehenu and Meshwesh
The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time .
This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).
The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with during his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.
Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people (who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).
The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.
The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".
The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64).
The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People .
David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).
The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of the army organized into "family or tribal ' units under the leadership of a "great one". As result to understand why the Asian and Tehenu figures on the Table of Nations are identified differently you have use both the pictorical and textual material from the reign of Ramses III to understand the representations.
As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu.
The personage that is second from the Egyptians which is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu, was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was labled Asian. You can find out more about this reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy (pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990. In the Table of Nation figure B we see the traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock, shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh
The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status.
David O'Connor makes it clear that there was "marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41). The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign. Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu, later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live near Cape Verde The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic type [that] are markedly different from the Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing, 1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered: Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered from the Egyptians to be chracteristic of ancient Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or in some way had these rtraits imposed upon them by the Egyptians" (p.74). It is my opinion that given the organiztion of the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups', sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of time Indo-European speaking people later to be known as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but maintaining their traditional beards,. The original Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase their number and possibily conquer Egypt.
It is interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because they brought their cattle and other animals with them when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples: Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield. The Nehasyu were ancient members of the Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman.
In conclusion, the names for the personages in the Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled correctly. These personages were recorded in the the Tables based on the military and family units were attached too, not the country identifiable by their dress.
Annotated Bibliography
(huge bibliography deleted- taking up too much space, it was longer than the post itself-lioness) [ 06. April 2018, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
.
Look! An example of altering Rχived posts on whim. A bibliography today. What tomorrow?
I mostly disagree with and have critiqued Clyde's above claims but his bibliography is word knowledge power I or anyone can put to good use. Besides the fact it's the norm an intelligent essay have a biblio.
Anyway too much 'Arkeology' type drivel here. Questioner, can you rebroach your topic and honor academia over folklore? I'm jes aksing. You know you can damn well do what you please. I lots happened since Massey and Chandler did not vet by AEL dictionaries.
Egypte Ancienne by Champollion-Figeac, M. (Jacques-Joseph), 1876
Dans la vallée proprement dite de Biban-el-Molouk , nous avons admiré, comme tous les voyageurs qui nous ont précédés, l'étonnante fraîcheur des peintures et la finesse des sculptures de plusieurs tombeaux. J'y ai fait des- •siner la série de peuples figurée dans
des bas-reliefs. J'avais cru d'abord , d'après les copies de ces bas-reliefs publiées en Angleterre , que ces peu- ples , de race bien différente, conduits par le dieu Horus , tenant le bâton pastoral, étaient les nations soumises au sceptre des Pharaons ; l'étude des légendes m'a fait connaître que ce ta- bleau a une signification plus générale. Il appartient a la 3* heure du jour , celle où le soleil commence à faire sen- tir toute l'ardeur de ses rayons , et ré- chauffe toutes les contrées habitées de notre hémisphère. On a voulu y repré- senter , d'après la légende même , les habitants de l'Egypte et ceux des contrées étrangères. Nous avons donc ici sous les yeux l'image des diverses races d'hommes connues des Égyp- tiens, et nous apprenons en même temps les grandes divisions géographi- ques ou ethnographiques établies à cette époque reculée.
« Les hommes guidés par le pasteur des peuples , Horus , appartiennent à quatre familles bien distinctes. Le pre- mier [ n° 1 de notre planche ],\e plus voisin du dieu , est de couleur rouge sombre, taille bien proportionnée, phy- sionomie douce , nez légèrement aqui- lin , longue chevelure nattée , vêtu de blanc; les légendes désignent cette espèce sous le nom de Rot-en-ne-rôme, la race des hommes , les hommes par excellence , c'est-à-dire les Égyptiens.
« Il ne peuty avoir aucune incertitude sur la race de celui qui vient après [ n" 2 denotreplanche]-^ ilappartient àla race des nègres, qui sont désignés sous le nom général de NAHASI.
« Le suivant présente un aspect bien différent : [n» 3 de la planche] peau couleur de chair tirant sur le jaune, ou teint basané, nez fortement aquilin, barbe noire, abondante et terminée en pointe , court vêtement de couleurs variées ; ceux-ci portent le nom de WAMOU.
« Enfin , le dernier [n° 6 de la plan- che] a la teinte de peau que nous nom- mons couleur de chair, ou peau blan- che de la nuance la plus délicate, le nez droit ou légèrement voussé, les yeux bleus , barbe blonde ou rousse ,
f.GYPTE.
taille haute et très-clancée , vêtu de peau de bœuf conservant encore son
Soil , véritable sauvage tatoué sur i verses parties du corps ; on les nomme TAMHOU.
'1 Je me hâtai de chercher le tableau [correspondant à celui-ci dans les au- tres tombes royales, et, en le retrou- vant en effet dans plusieurs, les varia- tions que j'y observai me convainqui- rent pleinement qu'on a voulu figurer ici les habitants des quatre j]arties du monde , selon l'ancien système égyptien , savoir : 1° les habitants de l'Ègjpte, qui, à elle seule, formait une partie du monde, d'après le très- modeste usage des vieux peuples ; 2° les habitants propres de VJJiique, les nègres ; 3° les Asiatiques ; 4" enfin [et j'ai honte de le dire, puisque no- tre race est la dernière et la plus sau- vage de la série ] les Européens qui , à ces époques reculées, il faut être juste , ne faisaient pas une trop belle figure dans ce monde. Il faut entendre ici tous les peuples de race blonde et à peau blanche , habitant non-seulement X Europe, mais encore \ Asie , leur point de départ.
nt tout le caractère d'une race à part. J'ai fait copier et colorier cette curieuse série ethnogra- phique. Je ne m'attendais certaine- ment, pas, en arrivant à liiban-el-Mo- louk , d'y trouver des sculptures qui pourront servir de vignettes à l'his- toire des habitants primitifs de l'Eu- rope, si on a jamais le courage de l'entreprendre. Leur vue a toutefois quelque chose de flatteur et de conso- lant, puisqu'elle nous fait bien appré- cier le chemin que nous avons parcouru depuis. » La figure n° 5 est celle d'un Grec ou Ionien. L'origine de la race égyptienne une fois déterminée , continuons à l'obser- ver dans sa migration sur les rives inférieures du Psil , et, s'il est possible, voyons comment elle s'établit et se constitue dans ses nouvelles demeures ; comment de simple colonie , elle s'é- lève au rang de première nation du monde , par sa sagesse comme par sa constitution sociale. L'état de la civilisation de l'Ethiopie, au moment où une colonie en sortit pour aller habiter au nord de la cata- racte actuelle de Syène, nous étant inconnu, on ne saurait dire avec quel- que certitude si les Éthiopiens , par- venus en Egypte, eurent à subir les divers degrés d'épreuves et de progrès que les philosophes modernes suppo- sent inévitables pour des peuples qui se sont formés loin des préceptes et des exemples d'une civilisation antérieure, voisine ou éloignée. L'idée seule de quitter la terre qui la nourrit, pour S2 L'UNIVERS. aller en cherclier une autre , suppose [ju'une population a déjà échappé à l'état de nature , à l'usage unique des productions spontanées de la terre , à l'état de simple chasseur ou de pêcheur <{ui sait ajouter à l'insuffisance de ces F réductions. Les premiers habitantsde Egypte étaient au moins déjà formés en tribus nomades , sans demeure fixe il est vrai , et tels que sont encore les Arabes Bédouins "Aulieu de l'Arabe ou du Juif [n» 3], si simplement vêtu, figuré dans un tom- beau, l'Asie a pour représentants dans d'autres tombeaux [ceux de Rhamsès- Meïamoun, etc.] trois individus tou- jours à teint basané , nez aquilin , œil noir 0t barbe touffue, mais costumés avec une rare magnificence. Dans l'un, ce sont évidemment des Assyriens : Jeur costume, jusque dans les plus pe- tits détails, est parfaitement semblable à celui des personnages gravés sur les cylindres assyriens; dans l'autre, les peuples Mèdes, ou habitants primitifs de quelque partie de la Perse, leur physionomie et costume se retrouvant en effet, trait pour trait, sur les mo- numents dits persépolitains [n" 4 de \a planche]. On représentait donc l'A- sie par l'un des peuples qui l'habitaient, indifféremment. Il en est de même de nos bons vieux ancêtres les Tamhou [ n° 6 de la planche] ; leur costume est quelquefois différent ; leurs têtes sont plus ou moins chevelues et chargées d'ornements diversifiés ; leur vêtement sauvage varie un peu dans sa forme ; mais leur teint blanc , leurs yeux et leur barbe conservent tout le caractère d'une race à part. J'ai fait copier et colorier cette curieuse série ethnogra- phique. Je ne m'attendais certaine- ment, pas, en arrivant à liiban-el-Mo- louk , d'y trouver des sculptures qui pourront servir de vignettes à l'his- toire des habitants primitifs de l'Eu- rope, si on a jamais le courage de l'entreprendre. Leur vue a toutefois quelque chose de flatteur et de conso- lant, puisqu'elle nous fait bien appré- cier le chemin que nous avons parcouru depuis. » La figure n° 5 est celle d'un Grec ou Ionien. L'origine de la race égyptienne une fois déterminée , continuons à l'obser- ver dans sa migration sur les rives inférieures du Psil , et, s'il est possible, voyons comment elle s'établit et se constitue dans ses nouvelles demeures ; comment de simple colonie , elle s'é- lève au rang de première nation du monde , par sa sagesse comme par sa constitution sociale
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
War Dance of the Timihu (Temehu, Tamahu) at Dier El-Bahari
HISTORY OF EGYPT CHALDEA, SYRIA, BABYLONIA, AND ASSYRIA By G. MASPERO, date 1903-1904
I remember the Libyan Dance Troupe doing this from back in my ASA days. They said it was a dispute over a well that in the end ended well. They said the dance was ancient. Wow.
posted
Diop translation of Champollion letter to his brother:
quote:
Finally, the last one is what we call flesh-coloured, a white skin of the most delicate shade, a nose straight or slightly arched, blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender clad in a hairy ox-skin, a veritable savage tattooed on various parts of his body, he is called, Tamahou.
I hasten to seek the tableau corresponding to this one in the other royal tombs and, as a matter of fact, I found it in several. The variations I observed fully convinced me that they had tried to represent here the inhabitants of the four corners of the earth, according to the Egyptian system, namely;
The inhabitants of Egypt which, by itself formed one part of the world
The inhabitants of Africa proper: Blacks
Asians
Finally [and I am ashamed to say so, since our race is the last and the most savage in the series]. Europeans who, in those remote epochs, frankly did not cut too fine a figure in the world. In this category we must include all blonds and white-skinned people living not only in Europe, but Asia as well, their starting point. This manner of viewing the tableau is all the more accurate because, on the other tombs, the same generic names appear, always in the same order. We find there, Egyptians and Africans represented in the same way, which could not be otherwise; but the Namou [the Asians] and the Tamahou [Europeans] present significant and curious variants. Instead of the Arab or the Jew, dressed simply and represented on one tomb, Asian's representatives on other tombs [those of Ramases 11 ect] are three individuals, tanned complexion, aquiline nose, black eyes, and thick beard but clad in rare splendour.
In one, they are evidently Assyrians, their costume, down to the smallest detail, is identical with that of personages engraved on Assyrian cylinders. In the other, are Medes or early inhabitants of some part of Persia. Their physiognomy and dress resemble, feature for feature, those found on monuments called, Persepolitan. Thus, Asia was represented indiscriminately by any one of the peoples who inhabited it.
The same is true of our good old ancestors, the Tamahou. Their attire is sometimes different; their heads are more or less hairy and adorned with various ornaments; their savage dress varies somewhat in form, but their white complexion, their eyes and beard all preserve the character of a race apart. I had this strange ethnographical series copied and coloured. I certainly did not expect, on arriving at Biban-el-Moluk, to find sculptures that could serve as vignettes for the history of the primitive Europeans , if ever one has the courage to attempt it, nevertheless, there is something flattering and consoling in seeming them, since they make us appreciate the progress we have subsequently achieved..."
- Champollion
.
.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Tamahu in Ancient Egyptian means land of the North literally
Ta means land mahu, mehu, or mehti means North
so Tamahu literally means Northlander
None of the Tamahu present African animals as tribute to the pharaoh, they only give cattle. I am convinced that the tamahu are really europeans. I am convinced that White Egyptology are lying about the tamahu to get away with a white north Africa and erase the history of European submission to Africa/Egypt.
I believe Jean-François Champollion indeed was right about the tamahu
^^ This tile from Ramesess III matches in garb in the Champollion-Figeac book illustration I posted of the Tamhou from the Seti I tomb
Either the above is the garb if a European circa 1294 to 1279 BC (but where exactly?)
your theory is White Egyptology is lying about the tamahu to get away with a white north Africa and erase the history of European submission to Africa/Egypt.
So in your theory he's not Libyan so how is that getting away with a white North Africa?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Damn do I have to repost the authentic tile yet again behind the fakes you keep posting?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Diop translation:
quote:
Finally, the last one is what we call flesh-coloured, a white skin of the most delicate shade, a nose straight or slightly arched, blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender clad in a hairy ox-skin, a veritable savage tattooed [see my article on European Goths] on various parts of his body, he is called, Tamahou.
I hasten to seek the tableau corresponding to this one in the other royal tombs and, as a matter of fact, I found it in several. The variations I observed fully convinced me that they had tried to represent here the inhabitants of the four corners of the earth, according to the Egyptian system, namely;
The inhabitants of Egypt which, by itself formed one part of the world
The inhabitants of Africa proper: Blacks
Asians
Finally [and I am ashamed to say so, since our race is the last and the most savage in the series]. Europeans who, in those remote epochs, frankly did not cut too fine a figure in the world. In this category we must include all blonds and white-skinned people living not only in Europe, but Asia as well, their starting point. This manner of viewing the tableau is all the more accurate because, on the other tombs, the same generic names appear, always in the same order. We find there, Egyptians and Africans represented in the same way, which could not be otherwise; but the Namou [the Asians] and the Tamahou [Europeans] present significant and curious variants. Instead of the Arab or the Jew, dressed simply and represented on one tomb, Asian's representatives on other tombs [those of Ramases 11 ect] are three individuals, tanned complexion, aquiline nose, black eyes, and thick beard but clad in rare splendour.
In one, they are evidently Assyrians, their costume, down to the smallest detail, is identical with that of personages engraved on Assyrian cylinders. In the other, are Medes or early inhabitants of some part of Persia. Their physiognomy and dress resemble, feature for feature, those found on monuments called, Persepolitan. Thus, Asia was represented indiscriminately by any one of the peoples who inhabited it.
The same is true of our good old ancestors, the Tamahou. Their attire is sometimes different; their heads are more or less hairy and adorned with various ornaments; their savage dress varies somewhat in form, but their white complexion, their eyes and beard all preserve the character of a race apart. I had this strange ethnographical series copied and coloured. I certainly did not expect, on arriving at Biban-el-Moluk, to find sculptures that could serve as vignettes for the history of the primitive Europeans , if ever one has the courage to attempt it, nevertheless, there is something flattering and consoling in seeming them, since they make us appreciate the progress we have subsequently achieved..."
- Champollion
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Tamahu in Ancient Egyptian means land of the North literally
Ta means land mahu, mehu, or mehti means North
so Tamahu literally means Northlander
None of the Tamahu present African animals as tribute to the pharaoh, they only give cattle. I am convinced that the tamahu are really europeans. I am convinced that White Egyptology are lying about the tamahu to get away with a white north Africa and erase the history of European submission to Africa/Egypt.
I believe Jean-François Champollion indeed was right about the tamahu
^^ This tile from Ramesess III matches in garb in the Champollion-Figeac book illustration I posted of the Tamhou from the Seti I tomb
Either the above is the garb if a European circa 1294 to 1279 BC (but where exactly?)
your theory is White Egyptology is lying about the tamahu to get away with a white north Africa and erase the history of European submission to Africa/Egypt.
So in your theory he's not Libyan so how is that getting away with a white North Africa?
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Tamahu in Ancient Egyptian means land of the North literally
Ta means land mahu, mehu, or mehti means North
so Tamahu literally means Northlander
None of the Tamahu present African animals as tribute to the pharaoh, they only give cattle. I am convinced that the tamahu are really europeans. I am convinced that White Egyptology are lying about the tamahu to get away with a white north Africa and erase the history of European submission to Africa/Egypt.
I believe Jean-François Champollion indeed was right about the tamahu
your theory is White Egyptology is lying about the tamahu to get away with a white north Africa and erase the history of European submission to Africa/Egypt.
So in your theory he's not Libyan so how is that getting away with a white North Africa?
^^ Illustration from
Egypte Ancienne by Champollion-Figeac, M. (Jacques-Joseph), 1876
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Anyway too much 'Arkeology' type drivel here. Questioner, can you rebroach your topic and honor academia over folklore? I'm jes aksing. You know you can damn well do what you please. I lots happened since Massey and Chandler did not vet by AEL dictionaries.
Every student of academia knows there is truth in folklore
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Tamahu in Ancient Egyptian means land of the North literally
Ta means land mahu, mehu, or mehti means North
so Tamahu literally means Northlander
None of the Tamahu present African animals as tribute to the pharaoh, they only give cattle. I am convinced that the tamahu are really europeans. I am convinced that White Egyptology are lying about the tamahu to get away with a white north Africa and erase the history of European submission to Africa/Egypt.
I believe Jean-François Champollion indeed was right about the tamahu
your theory is White Egyptology is lying about the tamahu to get away with a white north Africa and erase the history of European submission to Africa/Egypt.
So in your theory he's not Libyan so how is that getting away with a white North Africa?
^^ Illustration from
Egypte Ancienne by Champollion-Figeac, M. (Jacques-Joseph), 1876
______________________________________
Could the above be ancient European clothing and hairstyle?
I don't know but it would have to be for your theory to be correct
In order for the tamahu to be African one must show the Tamahu with African animals. Then we could conclude they were on the African continent.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Tamahu in Ancient Egyptian means land of the North literally
Ta means land mahu, mehu, or mehti means North
so Tamahu literally means Northlander
None of the Tamahu present African animals as tribute to the pharaoh, they only give cattle. I am convinced that the tamahu are really europeans. I am convinced that White Egyptology are lying about the tamahu to get away with a white north Africa and erase the history of European submission to Africa/Egypt.
I believe Jean-François Champollion indeed was right about the tamahu
your theory is White Egyptology is lying about the tamahu to get away with a white north Africa and erase the history of European submission to Africa/Egypt.
1) So in your theory he's not Libyan so how is that getting away with a white North Africa?
^^ Illustration from
Egypte Ancienne by Champollion-Figeac, M. (Jacques-Joseph), 1876
posted
It literally translates into the "Created White People". More confirmation of the story that they were created by a group of rogue Kemetic priest (Yacub).
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Anyway too much 'Arkeology' type drivel here. Questioner, can you rebroach your topic and honor academia over folklore? I'm jes aksing. You know you can damn well do what you please. I lots happened since Massey and Chandler did not vet by AEL dictionaries.
Every student of academia knows there is truth in folklore
Ok, you don't want critique and will dismiss willy nilly any and all falsifying evidence?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
War Dance of the Timihu (Temehu, Tamahu) at Dier El-Bahari
HISTORY OF EGYPT CHALDEA, SYRIA, BABYLONIA, AND ASSYRIA By G. MASPERO, date 1903-1904
Like I done seen Libyans doing that stick dance with my own eyes time and again as our two African Dance Troupes performed from place to place and that they didn't say it was old they said it was ancient i.e., before Islam in Libya. It's a reenactment of a water rights dispute is what they said it was. I believe them.
And really, you expect gorillas in coastal Libya? Believe it or not fauna conform to a geography's flora, their food.
Monumental art, names, customs, all mean nothing? Only animals count, except Bos taurus and Equus africanus I presume?
what appears to be Tamahu, first left (based on side lock)
figures 1, 3 and 5 skin tone might be unpainted wood, not sure
notice the hair type
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
No it don't. If I show it to you from 3 AEL dictionaries will you accept the dictionary translations of each word Massey uses even if suggests he was talking out his ass?
Lexicon or ideology? If you just want to push a faith despite what's in dictionaries I won't bother. I'll leave it up to you.
quote:Originally posted by Akachi: It literally translates into the "Created White People". More confirmation of the story that they were created by a group of rogue Kemetic priest (Yacub).
posted
North Africa in ancient times had elephants, antelopes, gazelles, crocodiles, ostriches, giraffes, panthers, hyenas,and monkeys. so far i have not found a single Tamahu with any of these animals.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: North Africa in ancient times had elephants, antelopes, gazelles, crocodiles, ostriches, giraffes, panthers, hyenas,and monkeys. so far i have not found a single Tamahu with any of these animals.
So North Africa was uninhabited by humans at that time?
where are the North Africans in Egyptian art then?
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
In order for the tamahu to be African one must show the Tamahu with African animals.
false
since you don't see animals you can't exclude a location
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: North Africa in ancient times had elephants, antelopes, gazelles, crocodiles, ostriches, giraffes, panthers, hyenas,and monkeys. so far i have not found a single Tamahu with any of these animals.
So North Africa was uninhabited by humans at that time?
where are the North Africans in Egyptian art then?
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
In order for the tamahu to be African one must show the Tamahu with African animals.
false
since you don't see animals you can't exclude a location
Some of the nations they are falsely calling "Nubians" may actually be North Africans
The lack of animals puts doubt in the supposed location
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Guys, let's learn a little of the language. I understand the transliteration's misleading but these are two completely different words.
Ta Mehh - marshland; Lower Egypt
Tjemehu - ethnonym; • same root as the tjemeh stone • people adjacent to '6th Dyn' Kenset (Nubia) • New Kingdom generic for any Libyan
Seti I tomb Tjemehu in Egyptian afterlife scene Long ago somebody stole the last intact face. posted 2012
Last is the Denkmäler's color fax. Lepsius 40 years after the Napoleon expedition saw the next to last face. The skin is creamy. The hair is brown. The eye, dark brown. If any, there's only one 'authenticated' image of super rare blond and blue pharaonic era Libyans.
The Retenus or Syrians, who bring pots, carts and weapons, along with various animals (horses, a bear and an elephant).
Register 5: The captives of vassal countries, Nubia and Retenu, tomb of Rekhmire
Retjenu (rṯnw; Reṯenu, Retenu), was an Ancient Egyptian name for Canaan and Syria. It covered the region from the Negev Desert north to the Orontes River. The borders of Retjenu shifted with time, but it generally consisted of three regions. The southernmost was Djahy, which had about the same boundaries as Canaan.[2] Lebanon proper was located in the middle, between the Mediterranean and the Orontes River.[2] North of Lebanon was designated Amurru, the land of the Amorites.[2]
The earliest attestation of the name occurs in the Tale of Sinuhe, inscribed on a piece of limestone in 14th century BC
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Tukuler
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Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: North Africa in ancient times had elephants, antelopes, gazelles, crocodiles, ostriches, giraffes, panthers, hyenas,and monkeys. so far i have not found a single Tamahu with any of these animals.
So according to you all those animals were in coastal Libya. Tjemehu were in coastal Africa but somehow avoid them or they just migrated from Europe. Ok I won't which species croc for instance was coastal or why Tjemehu'd be walking them on a leash to Pharaoh. But you do know their chiefs wore the ostrich feather and coastal Libya isn't tropical.
When and where do Tjemehu enter history.
But let me make sure I got your argument. Are you saying it's only the Tjemehu and no others (Tehenu, Libu, Hes,Esbet, Beken, Meshwesh) who are not African?
These are the animals Libya was known for
Bos taurus Equus africanus and some damn kinda ungulate.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: North Africa in ancient times had elephants, antelopes, gazelles, crocodiles, ostriches, giraffes, panthers, hyenas,and monkeys. so far i have not found a single Tamahu with any of these animals.
So according to you all those animals were in coastal Libya. Tjemehu were in coastal Africa but somehow avoid them or they just migrated from Europe. Ok I won't which species croc for instance was coastal or why Tjemehu'd be walking them on a leash to Pharaoh. But you do know their chiefs wore the ostrich feather and coastal Libya isn't tropical.
When and where do Tjemehu enter history.
But let me make sure I got your argument. Are you saying it's only the Tjemehu and no others (Tehenu, Libu, Hes,Esbet, Beken, Meshwesh) who are not African?
These are the animals Libya was known for
Bos taurus Equus africanus and some damn kinda ungulate.
Im pretty sure none of the animals i mentioned were found in the Sahara desert so of course they were in coastal Libya
all of the commonly depicted so called "libyan" are up for questioning not just the Tamahu (the umbrella term)
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Im pretty sure none of the animals i mentioned were found in the Sahara desert so of course they were in coastal Libya
all of the commonly depicted so called "libyan" are up for questioning not just the Tamahu (the umbrella term)
So suppose they found out all these people called Libyan were actually Iberian or Italian. Then what?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Ok Questioner
I see you don't know the climate and vegetation of the Sahara Desert from the Mediterranean coast.
posted
Could The problem be that We;re using modern Borders in historical context? Coastal Maghreb, Iberia, east Med can all be seen as the same region. The question could be, Might 'Tahamu' be inclusive to Southern Europeans?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Ok Questioner
I see you don't know the climate and vegetation of the Sahara Desert from the Mediterranean coast.
Yep, you'r right ancient Libyans of Egyptian record aren't Africans because they weren't walking crocs on a leash, riding giraffes, and playing Marco Polo with hippos.
Nevermind early and old kingdom docs listing cattle, donkeys, sheep/goats, and antelope/gazelles as the fauna of the Libyans.
Nevermind Tjemehu enter history in a 6th Dyn text by Harkhuf who convinced Heqa Yam.khast let's go make some money not go beat the shit out the Tjemehu in Ta-Tjemehu 'Sudan.' Omigosh Tjemehu first appear somewhere west of the Nile between Lower Nubia and Upper Egypt not coastal Libya where the Tehenu dwell nor in Europe. Oh my.
Carry on.
I'm not going to keep giving supporting evidence that you will dismiss in one sentence meanwhile giving no examples from any multidisciplinary evidence for Tjemehu being Euros not even living in Africa.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Could The problem be that We;re using modern Borders in historical context? Coastal Maghreb, Iberia, east Med can all be seen as the same region. The question could be, Might 'Tahamu' be inclusive to Southern Europeans?
The only AEL generic name for S Euros is Hau Nebu, ttbomk. Tjemehu originally were west of Nile and south of the main oases.
Before imperialist borders on modern maps Libya was defined as all Africa west of the Nile and in particular the delta to the gulf (Sidre). I can post a series of Bates' maps if you'd like (start a thread on that or on the Mediterranean concept and lets hope people will post, there are far too few members willing to post about anything and engage in rational discussion).
Should we forget the genetics and archaelogy of coastal Libya where the Tehenu lived less lone the genetic and lingual basis of Tjemehu and their adjacent to Nubia homeland?
Now of course there were SEuro-NAfr 'marriages'. I caught heat and ridicule everytime I've brought that up since 2005. Also the climate is Mediterranean not tropical African for Libya-Maghreb. For close on 20000 years Med Africa was cut off from facile communication with anywhere south by thousands of miles of Pleistocene desert. Only the very coastal rim was in loose communication with each other and likely the Levant. Med Europe was out the picture then.
Diop translation, Champollion to his brother about foreign captives, tomb of Seti I:
Finally, the last one is what we call flesh-coloured, a white skin of the most delicate shade, a nose straight or slightly arched, blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender clad in a hairy ox-skin, a veritable savage tattooed on various parts of his body, he is called, Tamahou.
I hasten to seek the tableau corresponding to this one in the other royal tombs and, as a matter of fact, I found it in several. The variations I observed fully convinced me that they had tried to represent here the inhabitants of the four corners of the earth, according to the Egyptian system, namely;
The inhabitants of Egypt which, by itself formed one part of the world
The inhabitants of Africa proper: Blacks
Asians
Finally [and I am ashamed to say so, since our race is the last and the most savage in the series]. Europeans who, in those remote epochs, frankly did not cut too fine a figure in the world. In this category we must include all blonds and white-skinned people living not only in Europe, but Asia as well, their starting point.
The quote is about similar figures to the pictured Rameses III tiles in the Seti I tomb
but looking at these tiles it doesn't match the description that well, except there are tatoos unless exaggerated by Champollion
"blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, "a veritable savage tattooed"
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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Over a decade ago ES critically examined Champollion's letter. So why act like it never happened?
Why not be an honest human being and credit past posters' accomplishments instead making a slow build up approach as if uncovering this for yourself?
quote:Originally posted 18 July, 2007 by rasol: ^ Fair enough. But the reason I knew the quote was false is because we discussed it before on Egyptsearch, when Wally presented it, Ozzy refuted it, and then Wally sulked over it, and never brought it up again, until now.
This was years ago.
Why knowingly repeat falsified garbage, unless your aim is to deceive?
Wally is responsible because he knows no such -racial tables - as rmt, followed by nehesi, then aamu, and temehu exists.
Wally isn't dense. He tried to pull a fast one, and got caught.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Could The problem be that We;re using modern Borders in historical context? Coastal Maghreb, Iberia, east Med can all be seen as the same region. The question could be, Might 'Tahamu' be inclusive to Southern Europeans?
I see you don't know the climate and vegetation of the Sahara Desert from the Mediterranean coast.
Yep, you'r right ancient Libyans of Egyptian record aren't Africans because they weren't walking crocs on a leash, riding giraffes, and playing Marco Polo with hippos.
Nevermind early and old kingdom docs listing cattle, donkeys, sheep/goats, and antelope/gazelles as the fauna of the Libyans.
Nevermind Tjemehu enter history in a 6th Dyn text by Harkhuf who convinced Heqa Yam.khast not to go beat the shit out of the Tjemehu in Tjemehu Sudan.
Omigosh Tjemehu first appear somewhere west of the Nile between Lower Nubia and Upper Egypt not coastal Libya where the Tehenu dwell nor in Europe. Oh my.
Carry on.
I'm not going to keep giving supporting evidence that you will dismiss in one sentence meanwhile giving no examples from any multidisciplinary evidence for Tjemehu being Euros not even living in Africa.
Provide primary evidence to support your theory
Where are the African animals of the tamahu? Surely they should be dressed in leopard skin or lion skin just as the Greeks described them.
The Nehsi are depicted walking African animals to the pharaoh Clearly the Nehsi are on the African continent
The Tamahu's association with the "sea peoples" makes my theory even stronger
The Tamahu's association with the "sea peoples" makes my theory even stronger
they could be pre-Phoenician from what is now called Lebanon and have settled in Libya
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Tukuler
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I presented lots of reproducible evidence from various fields. You have presented none. Nor have you put together a brief post specifically outlining your Tjemehu, or any ancient Libyans', origin in Europe and residence there.
When did they indigene in Europe? Where did they live in Europe? What Europeans have the same coif and costume? Why are there no records of them in Europe? How did Herodotus miss listing them European? Who has documented any of the above?
Tukuler
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posted
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Could The problem be that We;re using modern Borders in historical context? Coastal Maghreb, Iberia, east Med can all be seen as the same region. The question could be, Might 'Tahamu' be inclusive to Southern Europeans?
Excellent theory and question
Mordern borders has distorted history
Agreed.
But what bigger distortion to conflate Egypt with France because both have Mediterranean shores?
I am not one to declare ancient Siwa as Egypt when Siwa was Libya that era.
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