Scriptores physiognomonici graeci et latini by Foerster, Richard, 1843-1922; Adamantius; Polemo, Antonius, approximately 88-145; Hoffmann, Georg, 1845-; Muhammad ibn Zakarīyā, Abū Bakr, al-Rāzī, active 10th century; Aristotle. Spurious and doubtful works. De physiognomia
^^ however I wasn't able to find it in the latin source
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
According to my theory The Tamahu live north of the delta, this is why the flowers are not depicted. The flowers symbolize Lower Egypt to distinguish from the lands North of Egypt or north in general.
the spelling is to prevent confusion between north as a direction and north as a particular region or people
Also Wallis Budge is not an ancient Egyptian so Don't take everything he says as 100 percent accurate. Budge is merely putting together a language that has been lost for many years
the lioness what evidence do you have that the Tamahu lived in a desert?
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: According to my theory The Tamahu live north of the delta,
you would have to back that up with Egyptian texts describing location
It is bogus however to try to prove it with negatives
like such and such is not present therefore my theory is true You keep doing that over and over again.
That is a straw man used for the purpose of confirmation bias.
You have to have affirmative evidence not try to use lack of evidence to prove something you also have no evidence for.
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] Diop translation of Champollion letter to his brother:
[QUOTE]
Finally, the last one is what we call flesh-coloured, a white skin of the most delicate shade, a nose straight or slightly arched, blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender clad in a hairy ox-skin, a veritable savage tattooed on various parts of his body, he is called, Tamahou.
^ I checked the French in the book this is an accurate translation of Champolion.
Why even consider this if you can't produce a single piece of art which corresponds to that?
quote:
"blue eyes, blond or reddish beard.....clad in a hairy ox-skin......
I hasten to seek the tableau corresponding to this one in the other royal tombs and, as a matter of fact, I found it in several. The variations I observed fully convinced me that they had tried to represent here the inhabitants of the four corners of the earth, according to the Egyptian system
,"
How come these Libyans are always depicted black haired and black eyed ?
^^ This is the savage dressed in hairy ox skin ??
tatoos? Yes that is a match
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: According to my theory The Tamahu live north of the delta,
you would have to back that up with Egyptian texts describing location
It is bogus however to try to prove it with negatives
like such and such is not present therefore my theory is true You keep doing that over and over again.
That is a straw man used for the purpose of confirmation bias.
You have to have affirmative evidence not try to use lack of evidence to prove something you also have no evidence for.
as early as Year 2 of Ramesses II,(9) the Aswan stela has the couplet: 'He has trampled down the Northern foreign lands, and the Temehu are fallen through terror of him'
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: questioner, did Eurasian traders from Phoenicia in what is now Lebanon settle in North Africa and build cities there?
yes or no ?
yes but The Phoenicians were Afroasians not Eurasians because they came originally from the Red Sea
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: According to my theory The Tamahu live north of the delta,
you would have to back that up with Egyptian texts describing location
It is bogus however to try to prove it with negatives
like such and such is not present therefore my theory is true You keep doing that over and over again.
That is a straw man used for the purpose of confirmation bias.
You have to have affirmative evidence not try to use lack of evidence to prove something you also have no evidence for.
as early as Year 2 of Ramesses II,(9) the Aswan stela has the couplet: 'He has trampled down the Northern foreign lands, and the Temehu are fallen through terror of him'
meaning the Sea People AND their Libyan allies
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: According to my theory The Tamahu live north of the delta,
you would have to back that up with Egyptian texts describing location
It is bogus however to try to prove it with negatives
like such and such is not present therefore my theory is true You keep doing that over and over again.
That is a straw man used for the purpose of confirmation bias.
You have to have affirmative evidence not try to use lack of evidence to prove something you also have no evidence for.
as early as Year 2 of Ramesses II,(9) the Aswan stela has the couplet: 'He has trampled down the Northern foreign lands, and the Temehu are fallen through terror of him'
posted
questioner, did thousands of Germanic Vandals settle in Tunisia and part of Algeria in 5th century AD, remain there for about a hundred years and then get expelled by the Byzantines?
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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So these images of tamahu from the 19th dynasty around 1292 BC to 1189 BC
what part of Europe do you think they come from? Or was the entire Europe populated by people dressed like this at that time?
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: questioner, did thousands of Germanic Vandals settle in Tunisia and part of Algeria in 5th century AD, remain there for about a hundred years and then get expelled by the Byzantines?
Yes that is true They settled mainly in Tunisia and their were Ancient Romans (Italians) in North Africa as well who settled and mixed with the population (also mainly in Tunisia)
Herodotus said their were four peoples living in Libya (Africa) during his time Greeks, Phoenicians, Libyans, and Ethiopians. Herodotus said the Libyans and Ethiopians were indigenous while the Greeks and Phoenicians were newcomers
posted
There were two groups of Libyans depicted by the AE, one was a more Northern Group and the other was a more Southern group. The initial references of the Southern groups were called Temehu and associated with the C-Group so-called "Nubians". During the old and Middle Kingdom. The later depictions of lighter skinned Libyans primarily comes from around the time of the invasions of the Sea Peoples and as many others have suggested represents a mixture of indigenous lighter skinned Libyans and Eurasian elements. And by that time it was no different than it is today where the more coastal groups are lighter skinned while the Southern groups in the Sahara and south are darker skinned.
And there are numerous other references to various Libyan and other groups with various skin complexions, some lighter and some darker. The modern descendants of the Southern groups would be the Tuareg, The Fulani, Beja and others.
Also mnany of the cultural elements found in those lighter skinned "Temehu" images are found on these groups as well as well as even some Egyptian folks. So I would say that the lighter skinned LIbyans weren't the only Libyans or Africans to the west of Egypt and yes they are part of the ancestral population that became part of modern Berber populations, but again that includes a wide range of populations and traditions from the north and the South.
Egyptians wearing two feathers as seen in Medinet Habu:
posted
As a side note, the TmH.w and Thn.w were ethnic designations of people who actually lived and settled in the Delta. The very name TmH.w is an ethnic designation of someone from the Delta: i.e., tA-mH.w. The T- prefix is the same affix found in the word rmT, designating a people. This is discussed in the introduction of my latest work Aaluja Vol. II.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
The Temehu were no lighter skinned than any other Black African that has varying hues. There were no Caucasians in Delta until the spread of the People of the Sea between 1400-1200BC.
During the invansion of Egypt by the people of the Sea, Europeans enter the Delta Region of Egypt. Most researchers link these "whites" to the Berbers. The whites who were part of the Sea People invansion were called the Meshwesh. Researchers link the Meshwesh to modern Berbers.
The tehenu and Meshwesh
The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time .
This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).
The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with during his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.
Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people (who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).
The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.
The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".
The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64).
The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People .
David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).
The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of the army organized into "family or tribal ' units under the leadership of a "great one". As result to understand why the Asian and Tehenu figures on the Table of Nations are identified differently you have use both the pictorical and textual material from the reign of Ramses III to understand the representations.
As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu.
The personage that is second from the Egyptians which is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu, was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was labled Asian. You can find out more about this reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy (pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990. In the Table of Nation figure B we see the traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock, shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh
The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status.
David O'Connor makes it clear that there was "marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41). The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign. Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu, later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live near Cape Verde The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic type [that] are markedly different from the Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing, 1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered: Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered from the Egyptians to be chracteristic of ancient Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or in some way had these rtraits imposed upon them by the Egyptians" (p.74). It is my opinion that given the organiztion of the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups', sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of time Indo-European speaking people later to be known as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but maintaining their traditional beards,. The original Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase their number and possibily conquer Egypt.
It is interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because they brought their cattle and other animals with them when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples: Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield. The Nehasyu were ancient members of the Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman.
In conclusion, the names for the personages in the Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled correctly. These personages were recorded in the the Tables based on the military and family units were attached too, not the country identifiable by their dress.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted December 05 2011 by alTakruri:
I would think "ties" of any Sea Peoples to Africa come only after these folk of non-African origins settled in Africa. They were H3w Nbw not Tamehu.
Of all the Sea Peoples the Peleshet are the only ones I can see of possible African ancestry based on Hebrew records.
Similarities of Med isle and N. Med peoples with North Africa stem from Europe -> Africa movement not the reverse since the cultural similarities appear earlier outside of Africa rather than within Africa.
Only two "Libyans" with esh names * the Meshwesh nation * the Keykesh tribe [I now have reason to believe they not Libyans ]
Four Sea Peoples with esh names * Ekwesh * Teresh * Shekelesh * Weshesh
Of particular notice are the Meshwesh nation and Weshesh H3W NBW tribe, especially when we note Graeco-Latin authors relating origins of some North African peoples as coming from the Aegean and even as far as Persia. The Meshwesh were unknown to Egypt before the Sea Peoples era and seem distinct from the either the Tehenu or Lebu, known at least from the 5th and 11th dynasties respectively.
Then the similar archaeology, like the bell shaped vessels c.2000 BCE of Cueta and Tetuan, came from Iberia. The copper/bronze arrowheads of c.1500 BCE North Africa were imported from Iberia and the NA obsidian manufactures of the same era are imports from Sicily and Pantellaria, the obsidan itself coming from the Lipari islands. Other "industrial" influences c.1500-1300 BCE stem from Cyprus & Asia Minor carried by Aegeans & Phoenicians via Malta, Pantellaria, and Sicily; and the dolmens of Algeria and Tunisia have their prototype in Malta just as the late bronze chamber tombs of Cap Bon are preceded by those of Sicily.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted December 06 2011 by alTakruri:
... please address each of the points I raised one by one and disconfirm their validity. If undone they remain factual and strongly counter ideas of "Sea Peoples" having originating ties to Africa rather than invading and/or settling Africa post 18th Dyn.
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Only one set of "Libyans" with an esh name * the Meshwesh nation
Five Sea Peoples with esh names * Ekwesh * Teresh * Keykesh * Shekelesh * Weshesh
* c.2000BCE Ceuta&Tetuan bell shaped vessels from Iberia * c.1500BCE N.Africa copper/bronze arrowheads from Iberia * c.1500BCE N.Africa obsidian products from Sicily&Pantellaria via Lipari * c.1400BCE N.Africa industrial influences from Cyprus&Asia Minor via Malta&Pantellaria&Sicily
* Algeria&Tunisia dolmens from Malta prototypes * late bronze age Cap Bon chamber tombs style preceded in Sicily
=-=-=-=-=-=
All this evinces ancestry of their originators as not African. Overreaching claims about Africa are damaging to verifiable African historiography. The unknowledgeable will surmise it's all fluff with no solid core just what if's and could be's.
Is there firm support in favor of African ancestral ties for any of the following Sea Peoples (and if not, supposing so seemingly underlies a need that Africans must incorporate others to puff themselves up).
* Lukka (Lycia) * Sharden (Sardonians of Lydia) * Eqwesh (Kos) * Teresh (Tursenoi of Lydia) * Shekelesh (Sagalassos of Pisidia) * Qeyqesh (Caria) * Weshesh (Wassos of Caria) * Tjeker (Teucrians of the Troad)
The Libyan Meshwesh, if the Maxyes of Herodotus, have a legendary claim of being Trojan in ancestry and Egypt knew nothing of the Meswesh until the Sea Peoples invasion of Amenophis III's time. The Meshwesh are the funniest looking Africans.
[Redux insert not in original post] [Rebu in my Redux for comparison with Senegalese Libu]
I grant African ancestral ties for the Sea Peoples known as Peleset (whether "Cretan" or Illyrian) and some of the Danyen (Danaoi of Argos).
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Wawat (lower nubia) vs Tjemehu (west of lower nubia) two different peoples per Harkhuf who persuaded the King of Yam and army that making $$$ is far better than "smiting Tjemehu to heaven".
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Wawat (lower nubia) vs Tjemehu (west of lower nubia) two different peoples per Harkhuf who persuaded the King of Yam and army that making $$$ is far better than "smiting Tjemehu to heaven".
Is the image supposed to be Wawat vs Tjemehu? They look the same in terms of iconography (hunters with dogs).
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
@ DougM: Stumbled across March 23rd posting of the above in the N Afr Genetic Tests Collections thread
Bowl figure reps Kush Rock figure reps Meshwesh see provenances below for whatever it's worth Just my own personal surmise with 'approriate' illustration per my take on the two ethnies accept or reject as you see fit
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Uh oh
The NK/LP old Kush vs Meshwesh thing resurrected
quote: Harkhuf's Third Journey
His majesty now sent me a third time to Yam; I went forth from - - - upon the Wehat (wh'.t) Road, and I found the ruler of Yam [line 11] going to the land of Temeh (tmh) to smite Temeh [line 12] as far as the western corner of heaven. I went forth after him to the land of Temeh, [line 13] and I pacified him, until he praised all the gods for the king's sake. [line 14]
Figures 37 and 19 from Förster2006 Abu Ballas Trail Painted bowl, dated to the First Intermediate Period, from a tomb at the Qubbet el-Hawa near Aswan and a Rock engraving at Abu Ballas showing a ‘Libyan’ (?) hunter with two dogs chasing a gazelle (photos: R. Kuper).
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