Topic: How can SSA ancestry=True Negro and Niger Kongo, when....
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Covered Mousterian & Abbasia pluvials in my Wobble chart. Pluvials extend Monsoon Optimal conditions across what, at the time, would normally be monsoon retreat leading to hyperaridity.
Abbassia (~120-90k) was the era of Skuhl et al's OoA.
Mousterian (~50-30k) in N Afr was also Aterian, Dabban, and Khormusan.*** Elsewhere in Afr were Stillbay* and Lupemban** type industries in places least affected, in some cases unaffected, by Wobble.
Nature's origin of the old, soft, but enduring, northern1/3 -- central&southern2/3 African dichotomy induced by the West African Monsoon.
* east and south ** west and central *** north (of the Sahel)
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70k was the beginning of a West African Monsoon Optimum. It introduced an African Humid Period like at the Holocene. ~50k another AHP began. The Mousterian Pluvial extended it through to the next AHP @ ~30k. It overrode cyclic monsoon retreat and hyperaridity between those two AHP's.
Too late for the main event but certainly migrations out of Africa continued then. Probably some migrations toward Africa happened too. And, of course, migrations occurring throughout lands outside of Africa/Arabia.
posted
From what I've been able to find the Mousterian wasn't much of a pluvial. Some places got wetter but it was patchy, not like the current or last interglacial Green Sahara periods.
There was apparently a wet period in Arabia around 55 kya, which would fit nicely if anyone could find an archaeological trail out of the Horn at that time.
Do we have any idea what was going on in Lower Egypt at the beginning of MIS 3? It's a bad place to have a hole in the archaeological map.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: This is only tangentially related to the main topic insofar as it concerns UP/LSA cultures in North Africa, but has anyone here heard of the Mousterian Pluvial? Because it's another "Green Sahara" climatic phase that took place 50-30 kya. Anyone else see this coinciding with the >55 kya date for OOA that Posth et al 2016 estimate?
Still not having any luck in finding UP/LSA cultures in Sudan during the LGM, by the way. I think Swenet is right that MSA people would have occupied the Sudanese segment of the Nile basin during that period. But then, if UP/LSA cultures never passed through any region of Sudan, how would they have gotten to North Africa in the first place ~50 kya (assuming that the UP/LSA's ultimate origin is somewhere in southern Africa)? Did they have another route from sub-Sahara towards the north that doesn't go through Sudan?
On a final note, those UP/LSA cultures that occupied Upper Egypt during the LGM are looking like good candidates for proto-Afrasan speakers to me right now.
You're swinging from pre-Mesolithic al-Khiday originates in Central Sudan, to now PAA originates in Egypt. What evidence are you basing these positions on? The evidence also doesn't allow saying Sudan was never used as a corridor. And how can a devoted Darwinist believe in 300-200ky MSA history in Sudan stretching to the close of the pleistocene, without any convergent evolution in behavioural modernity that closes the gap with living humans? I'm sorry, but this is not a position someone devoted to mainstream evolutionary thought can take. No convergent evolution to full suite of behavioural modernity in MSA populations is an open can of warms for you. Might want to sit this one out.
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: This is only tangentially related to the main topic insofar as it concerns UP/LSA cultures in North Africa, but has anyone here heard of the Mousterian Pluvial? Because it's another "Green Sahara" climatic phase that took place 50-30 kya. Anyone else see this coinciding with the >55 kya date for OOA that Posth et al 2016 estimate?
Still not having any luck in finding UP/LSA cultures in Sudan during the LGM, by the way. I think Swenet is right that MSA people would have occupied the Sudanese segment of the Nile basin during that period. But then, if UP/LSA cultures never passed through any region of Sudan, how would they have gotten to North Africa in the first place ~50 kya (assuming that the UP/LSA's ultimate origin is somewhere in southern Africa)? Did they have another route from sub-Sahara towards the north that doesn't go through Sudan?
On a final note, those UP/LSA cultures that occupied Upper Egypt during the LGM are looking like good candidates for proto-Afrasan speakers to me right now.
You're swinging from pre-Mesolithic al-Khiday originates in Central Sudan, to now PAA originates in Egypt. What evidence are you basing these positions on? The evidence also doesn't allow saying Sudan was never used as a corridor. And how can a devoted Darwinist believe in 300-200ky MSA history in Sudan stretching to the close of the pleistocene, without any convergent evolution in behavioural modernity that closes the gap with living humans? I'm sorry, but this is not a position someone devoted to mainstream evolutionary thought can take. No convergent evolution to full suite of behavioural modernity in MSA populations is an open can of warms for you. Might want to sit this one out.
Yeah, I'm not going to bother with you anymore. At least not if you keep up this attitude.
Your two last post are months apart and respond to me saying the same subject matter. Given similar drive-by reactions in the past just to disapprove of what I say, do you have some sort of problem with the ideas put forward in my posts? What does the first sentence you bolded have to do with relaxing or not relaxing?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
I'm still waiting... What specifically is it about the bolded sentences that have to do with relaxing or not relaxing?
If someone is dismissing non-Darwinian evolutionary thought out of hand, I think I'm well within my right to point out when he is co-signing a 300-200ky Nilotic MSA record that challenges Darwinism as a full explanation to human evolution.
You come in here with a pretext, overwriting a post that broke no rules, while spambots are spamming the forum. But I get it. You only come out the woodwork when precious ideas about Egyptians or Nubians are offended, as your last three post show.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Heaven forbid that I have things going on in my life, such as military requirements and personal issues. Point being there is a way to tactfully disagree with people or provide a counter-argument. You could learn to do that instead of masking passive-aggressive insults behind "objectivity". Enough.
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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square. Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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You're swinging from pre-Mesolithic al-Khiday originates in Central Sudan, to now PAA originates in Egypt. What evidence are you basing these positions on? The evidence also doesn't allow saying Sudan was never used as a corridor. And how can a devoted Darwinist believe in 300-200ky MSA history in Sudan stretching to the close of the pleistocene, without any convergent evolution in behavioural modernity that closes the gap with living humans? I'm sorry, but this is not a position someone devoted to mainstream evolutionary thought can take. No convergent evolution to full suite of behavioural modernity in MSA populations is an open can of warms for you. Might want to sit this one out.
Convergent evolution? With whom? Are you insinuating that humans have “evolved” within the last 300k years?
I just need clarity on how these points are relevant.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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You're swinging from pre-Mesolithic al-Khiday originates in Central Sudan, to now PAA originates in Egypt. What evidence are you basing these positions on? The evidence also doesn't allow saying Sudan was never used as a corridor. And how can a devoted Darwinist believe in 300-200ky MSA history in Sudan stretching to the close of the pleistocene, without any convergent evolution in behavioural modernity that closes the gap with living humans? I'm sorry, but this is not a position someone devoted to mainstream evolutionary thought can take. No convergent evolution to full suite of behavioural modernity in MSA populations is an open can of warms for you. Might want to sit this one out.
Convergent evolution? With whom? Are you insinuated humans have “evolved” within the last 300k years?
I just need clarity on how these points are relevant.
It's a variation of the old "why are there still monkeys if evolution is true" line of reasoning that he's only bringing up again in this thread as his way of personally attacking me. His playing dumb about it notwithstanding, it's nothing more than an obvious troll tactic.
quote:Heaven forbid that I have things going on in my life, such as military requirements and personal issues. Point being there is a way to tactfully disagree with people or provide a counter-argument. You could learn to do that instead of masking passive-aggressive insults behind "objectivity". Enough.
So, where are you leading by example? You’ve banned your detractors and never tactfully disagreed. How convenient. Everyone can create an homogeneous environment where only some views are welcome, and then preach higher morals. You are not an embodiment of your "higher morals", sorry. None of this kumbaya stuff when I made comments over the years about Nile Valley populations you didn’t like. As I recall, I and others were supposed to be a "Hamiticists". You are only describing yourself (as recent as your last two posts before yesterday). At least I'm not a hypocrite and cry about insults when they come my way. If you have a problem with my style of posts, change the rules. And change your own behaviour to match your own rules/preaching.
quote:It's a variation of the old "why are there still monkeys if evolution is true" line of reasoning that he's only bringing up again in this thread as his way of personally attacking me. His playing dumb about it notwithstanding, it's nothing more than an obvious troll tactic.
On the previous page I mentioned Cabrera, Petraglia and Rose and said it’s all connected to Sudan’s MSA record. I already mentioned evolution in behavioural modernity when I referenced new age multiregionalism. But, in your mind, the world revolves around you and everyone is out to get you.
But, I never needed answers from you (so, don't even bother). I'm content telling you that Sudan's MSA record is arguably the clearest example of the human revolution being specific to one human lineage out of 1000s of MSA and MP lineages in which no convergent evolution occurred, and that this makes Sudan's MSA record the last one proponents of mainstream evolutionary thought need to draw attention to and try to co-sign/act like it doesn't pose a problem.
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: Yea can we please get back on topic?
What is on topic in regards to this thread? The OP made accusations about Hamiticism that were never substantiated.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: On the previous page I mentioned Cabrera, Petraglia and Rose and said it’s all connected to Sudan’s MSA record. I already mentioned evolution in behavioural modernity when I referenced new age multiregionalism. But, in your mind, the world revolves around you and everyone is out to get you.
> Makes irrelevant claim about how the MSA's persistence in certain region of Sudan disproves "Darwinism" (read atheism) for no other apparent reason than to troll me, a "devoted Darwinist" > Gets called out on his passive-aggressive trolling behavior > Accuses me of paranoia for it > Also lashes out at Punos_Rey for also calling him out
But I get it. This is the part where you repeat your lies, just like in the Peabody thread where you tried to defend your misinformation about al Khiday. Only to admit you were wrong later and latch on other unsubstantiated positions about PAA in Egypt.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Swenet, if you have a problem with my adminship, take it up with me via direct message or create a new thread. That is the last time I will address this here.
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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square. Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Swenet, are u getting into beefs again?
I don’t ask for ‘beef’, but I recognize that my dislike for certain things tends to lead to that. I know there has to still be hope for me though as long I’m lightyears away from breaking your legendary beef record.
Peep these 'beef'ed up numbers: Posts: 34702
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Don't want to create a new thread. But you (not lioness) PM'ed me and I can't get back. Pls empty your inbox.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: On a final note, those UP/LSA cultures that occupied Upper Egypt during the LGM are looking like good candidates for proto-Afrasan speakers to me right now.
If lurkers really want to know what my reasoning was for this last thing I wrote, I simply had a hard time finding LSA/UP Paleolithic cultures along the Red Sea coast of Sudan, the area Ehret claimed represented the proto-Afrasan homeland (the closest I could find was one at Sodmein along the coast in southern Egypt). It seemed to me that the LSA/UP communities identified in Upper Egypt and Lower Nubia would be better candidates since that's where we find most of the archaeological data for a human presence in the eastern Sahara. I could be wrong on that count though.
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All of this nonsense about what "SSA" means in prehistory is misdirection. The issue is the overlap of Africans with non Africans in areas close to Africa in history. By shifting the focus to "SSA" as the only "true African" they can deny and ignore the obvious African features extending into Eurasia in history.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
For colleague Swenet: Hope you eventually see this. Maybe of some interest to you, I don't know
quote:Early Human Occupation at al-Jamrab (White Nile Region, Central Sudan): A Contribution to the Understanding of the MSA of Eastern Africa
Article in Journal of African Archaeology 16(2) · November 2018
Abstract
The middle reaches of the Nile River play a key role in the current models about the diffusion of modern Humans out of Africa, nevertheless the Early and the Middle Stone Age (Early Palaeolithic and Middle Palaeolithic) in central Sudan are poorly known.
On-going investigation at al-Jamrab (White Nile region) highlights the archaeological potential of the central Sudan and illustrates the importance of an integrated approach combining • archaeological excavation and • palaeoenvironmental reconstruction for understanding cultural site formation and post-depositional dynamics.
The stratigraphic sequence at al-Jamrab includes a thick cultural layer rich in Early and Middle Stone Age artefacts, preserved in a deeply weathered palaeosol developed on fluvial sediments. The cultural layer includes a two-fold human occupation covering the Middle Stone Age, with Acheulean and Sangoan bifacial artefacts, although an Early Stone Age/Middle Stone age transitional phase cannot be excluded.
The artefact-bearing unit is attributed to the Upper Pleistocene based on • preliminary OSL dating, • the local palaeoenvironmental context, and • strong pedogenetic weathering.
Considering the paucity of archaeological data for the Pleistocene of Sudan and the importance of this region in the study of human dispersal out of Africa, this preliminary work on a new site and its associated stratigraphic context provides insights into the early peopling of Sudan and adds one more tessera to the Eastern Africa picture.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: : Sudan has no known Upper Palaeolithic industry.
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