quote:Originally posted by One Third African: Honestly, the discussion over who does and doesn't count as "black" and how "black" is defined became a tired one long ago. We all know that, not only do definitions differ across cultures and countries, but also that people will shift the goal posts whenever it's convenient.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
All you people in this forum with sense, leave Nassbean alone! The guy is done, he has been thoroughly debunked and beaten to death already. You're now just fighting with a mental zombie akin to 'The Walking Dead' except you can't destroy washed-brain on this one.
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quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: It was a northafrican/middle eastern civilization that had no link with west,central,east and south Africa.
Ok, if you say so it must be "true."
quote: “Meanwhile, in the Western Sahara, Joel Irish’s (2005) dental study, of 671 individuals spanning the Late Pleistocene through to the Christian periods, reveals a break in population continuity between the Pleistocene (Jebel Sahaba) and the Final Neolithic (Gebel Ramlah, dating to the first half of the fifth millennium BC) samples. The dental traits from Jebel Sahaba align more closely with modern sub-Saharan populations, while Gebel Ramlah and later align closer to Egypt specifically and to the Sahara in general.
Irish’s results are particularly informative in light of his earlier study of the human mortuary remains from Nabta Playa (Irish, 2001). Analyses of dental and osseous non-metric traits exhibit both sub-Saharan and North African linkages, with cranial morphologies yielding a similar result.
Taken together, the unexplored potential of the data from Saharan isotopic, genetic and skeletal studies lays in demonstrating the degree to which populations grade into each other, as well as intra-and inter-regional patterns of interactions and integration.”
quote: QUEEN HATASU has been happily described as the Queen Elizabeth of Egyptian history; and she was undoubtedly one of the most extraordinary women in the annals of the ancient East. A daughter of Thothmes I., third Pharaoh of the Eighteenth Dynasty, and of his wife, Queen Ahmes Nefertari, she inherited sovereign rights in virtue of her maternal descent from the old Twelfth Dynasty line.
quote: "There is still some debate regarding the precise location of Punt, which was once identified with the region of modern Somalia. A strong argument has now been made for its location in either southern Sudan or the Eritrean region of Ethiopia, where the indigenous plants and animals equate most closely with those depicted in the Egyptian reliefs and paintings.
~Ian Shaw, The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, p. 317, 2003:
Men of Punt
King and Queen of Punt
quote: At a recent meeting in Oakland of the American Research Center in Egypt three scientists announced with confidence they had ruled out all of those five locations, and there was no disagreement from the 300 archaeologists there.
The Land of Punt, the scientist said, must have existed in eastern North Africa - either in the region where Ethiopia and Eritrea confront each other, or east of the Upper Nile in a lowland area of eastern Sudan.
More than a score of wooden cargo boxes coated with gypsum were found in the sand-filled cave, one of a series which lies at Wadi Gawasis, just south of Safaga on the western Red Sea coastline and about 300 miles southeast of Cairo. The ancient harbour, now inland from the present beach, lay at the point where an overland trade route from Qena on the Nile, and thus from the southern capital at Thebes and Luxor, reached the sea.
One of the boxes had a painted hieroglyphic inscription with a royal cartouche, probably of the Pharaoh Nimaatra Amenemhat III (1831-1786BC). It dates to Year 8 of his reign, and describes the contents of the box as "The wonderful things of Punt". Exactly what these "wonderful things" are will have to await the opening of the boxes.
Men from Punt Carrying Gifts, Tomb of Rekhmire Artist: Nina de Garis Davies (1881–1965) Period: New Kingdom Dynasty: Dynasty 18 Reign: reign of Thutmose III–early Amenhotep II Date: ca. 1479–1420 B.C. Geography: Original from Egypt, Upper Egypt, Thebes, Sheikh Abd el-Qurna, Tomb of Rekhmire (TT 100) Medium: Tempera on paper Dimensions: Facsimile: H. 46 cm (18 1/8 in.); W. 61.5 cm (24 3/16 in.) scale 1:1 Frame: H. 49 cm (19 5/16 in.); W. 65.5 cm (25 13/16 in.) Credit Line: Rogers Fund, 1930 Accession Number: 30.4.152
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quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: I only talk here because of quarantine lol you're just clowns to me none of you debunked me and none of you convinced me.
What is so special about that? We all are in quarantine. And nobody is here to "convince" you, you are not that special.
Anyway, is she haratin as well? If so, why? If not, why?
Is she haratin?
Are these haratin?
How do you think the people above are being viewed at in America?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Haratin is a multifaceted designation.
Usage is applied to different populations pending local meanings.
Algerian oasis Haratin aren't the same as Maurianian Hartini. They are Masters of the Waters and no oasis could live w/o them.
The former is much more a few millenia old mostly endogamous breeding population.
The latter is more a class designation for people.
I aint saying I know more n you but my resources go back farther plus this old man's held company of students and expatriates from the NW sector of Africa.
Just a few hours ago I went to buy couscous from Egyptian merchants who always show me nothng but respect expected in human interactions. But when I left and pulled opened the door an 'Arab' tried to walk in. I had to physically push him two feet back and told him I'm not his slave as he tried to walk through me after I told him I'm not holding the door for him but opening it for me. As he walked in the door after my exit he started to mouth off something until I turned around with fiery eyes and loudly told him again I'm not your slave. I stood ready. This burly man 30 yrs my junior turned and entered the store.
I am glad and thankful I did not have to go to jail for defending my honour. I do not the HipHop era blk kids who freely call themselves niggers in the presence of non-blx to disrespect me either. I suspect one o dem gon murder me once I'm too too old to defend myself w/o a firearm.
BTW bypasser harassing BHI are a far cry from "Black Jews". Obama's in-law Chief Rabbi Capers Funnye sits on the Chicago Board of Rabbis.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Thanks man, I appreciate the compliments, and you are right, Ill take your first hand knowledge. TBH I have'nt really studied the Heratin, All I remember is that some consider them the natives of Mariatania and Tunisia who were pushed south and enslaved by Arabs and Berbers, Then I read about them being slaves from sedintary Sudani people like Wolof, Songhai, Tekrur...etc.
Then I see black and tawny "Bidane" in their "Noble" or high caste robes, again my American culture sees them as black, and I know various Muslim cultures consider one an "Arab" through the Father, producing Jet Black Self Identified "Arabs" like the Sultans of Oman, and Blond Hair Blue Eyed Arabs sultans like the Al-Rahman caliphs of Andalus.
Even the Berber nationalist woman you posted considers Heratin as native North Africans and thus Berber and not Abid...
All I know is that the Heratin are still suffering, unlike white Europeans, the Arabs and Berbers are still proud of what they did and continue to do. Even the Confederates and sypathizers with the South, out shame tried to downplay slavery...claiming instead they were fighting for states rights.
Yeah it no funny Amazigh activist crying bout oppression and staging that "Berber Spring" while at the same time oppressing Berbers who are black and blx who aren't. Even though I taught Fanon as an undergrad I have as much use for him as 21st century Imazighen do who spit on that black man's efforts to champion Algeria against French colonialist abuses.
. This one photo is not representative for upper caste Tuare. It also depends on what country the particular Tuaregs are from. Niger actually has the highest population but their social structure will look different from Libyan, Malian or Algerian. And also Burkina Fasp has the 3rd highest population after Mali (although population data might not be reliable)
I don't think that Mauritanian term bidane is used there. And the somewhat equivalent term to Haratin as regards the Tuareg is "Bella" or "Ikelan".
In Mali some Tuaregs claim to be racially marginalized by the "blacker" much larger population of non-Tuareg Malians (but in Niger perhaps upper caste less so color distinguished)
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wikipedia
Tuareg
Slaves
Bellah constitute the historic slave strata within Tuareg society.[61] The Tuareg confederations acquired slaves as well as tribute paying states by conducting raids on communities to their south in West Africa.[7] They also secured captives as war booty or purchased slaves in markets.[62] The slaves or servile communities are locally called Ikelan (or Iklan, Eklan), and slavery was inherited, with the descendants of the slaves known as irewelen.[7][56]
According to the ethnographer Johannes Nicolaisen (1963), the Ikelan are of assimilated Nilotic origin rather than of Berber heritage like the ethnic Tuareg. They often live in communities separated from other castes. The Ikelan's Nilotic extraction is denoted via the Ahaggar Berber word Ibenheren (sing. Ébenher), which alludes to slaves that only speak a Nilo-Saharan language. The slaves of the Tuareg were generally of Sub-Saharan African heritage (Nilo-Saharan or Niger-Congo ethno-linguistic origins) and were captured during raids.[63]
The word ikelan itself means "to be black",[64] an allusion to most of the slaves.[62] In the post-colonial literature, the alternate terms for Ikelan include "Bellah-iklan" or just "Bellah" derived from a Songhay word.[61][65]
According to the historian Starratt (1981), the Tuareg evolved a system of slavery that was highly differentiated. They established strata among their slaves, which determined rules as to the slave's expected behavior, marriageability, inheritance rights if any, and occupation.[66] The Ikelan later became a bonded caste within Tuareg society, and they now speak the same Tamasheq language as the Tuareg nobles and share many customs.[63] According to Heath, the Bella in the Tuareg society were the slave caste whose occupation was rearing and herding livestock such as sheep and goats.[48]
When French colonial governments were established, they stopped acquisition of new slaves and slave trading in markets, but they did not remove or free domestic slaves from the Tuareg owners who had acquired their slaves before the French rule started.[67][68] In the Tuareg society, like with many other ethnic groups in West Africa, slave status was inherited, and the upper strata used slave children for domestic work, at camps and as a dowry gift of servants to the newlyweds.[69][70][71]
According to Bernus (1972), Brusberg (1985) and Mortimore (1972), French colonial interests in the Tuareg region were primarily economic, with no intention of ending the slave-owning institution.[72] The historian Klein (1998) states instead that, although French colonial rule indeed did not end domestic slavery within Tuareg society, the French reportedly attempted to impress upon the nobles the equality of the Imrad and Bella and to encourage the slaves to claim their rights.[73] He suggests that there was a large scale attempt by French West African authorities to liberate slaves and other bonded castes in Tuareg areas following the 1914–1916 Firouan revolt.[74] Despite this, French officials following the Second World War reported that there were some 50,000 "Bella" under direct control of Tuareg masters in the Gao–Timbuktu areas of French Soudan alone.[75] This was at least four decades after French declarations of mass freedom had happened in other areas of the colony.
In 1946, a series of mass desertions of Tuareg slaves and bonded communities began in Nioro and later in Menaka, quickly spreading along the Niger River valley.[76] In the first decade of the 20th century, French administrators in southern Tuareg areas of the French Sudan estimated that "free" to "servile" groups within Tuareg society existed at ratios of 1 to 8 or 9.[77] At the same time, the servile "rimaibe" population of the Masina Fulbe, roughly equivalent to the Bella, constituted between 70% to 80% of the Fulbe population, while servile Songhay groups around Gao made up some 2/3 to 3/4 of the total Songhay population.[77] Klein concludes that approximately 50% of the population of French Soudan at the beginning of the 20th century was in some servile or slave relationship.[77]
While post-independence states have sought to outlaw slavery, results have been mixed. Certain Tuareg communities still uphold the institution.[78] Traditional caste relationships have continued in many places, including slaveholding.[79][80] In Niger, where the practice of slavery was outlawed in 2003, according to the ABC News, almost 8% of the population are still enslaved.[81] The Washington Post reported that many slaves held by the Tuareg in Mali were liberated during 2013-14 when French troops intervened on behalf of the Malian government against Islamic radicals allied to the Tuareg.
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posted
Yeah man I hear you. Like I said in my research and readings and esp. from knowledge dropped by folks like Doug M., Dana, and DJ Ive came across countless folks, whole towns of people calling themselves Berbers, from various Kels, Timmimoun, Tissint, Tamegroute etc. all calling themselves Berber, but of course these folks are Saharan Natives not Coastal so they probably would be Heratin to Berber Nationalists...
As far as Egyptians go, I remember a few years back I was lurking on a history forum discussing the Egypt Race debate...mind you this was during its hey-day when the question was truly up in the air,(id say 2007-2010) and wiki-perdia was constantly being edited from various sides providing new evidence....Anyway I remember in that forum an Egyptian poster said to another that he didnt understand the big deal, that everyone in Egypt know that the current people are Egyptians but that Ancient Egypt was created by "black" Egyptians who now lived in the South.....I wish I had been more computer saavy or Id taken a screenshot...but I was a youngin' and my mind wasnt made up yet....anyway This was'nt an Africentist, but a native Egyptian who didn't have love for Afrocentrism.
This has been repeated by other Egyptians...even our resident troll Big-Moe to Aswani-Aswad in Arabic that the Black population were the "Innocent Doves" of Ancient Egypt, The Middle Egyptian woman in Truthteacher's video had no problem claiming Upper Egypt as older and the Upper Egyptians looked like Somali's and Ethiopians...but they could be outliers....All I know is that the Nubians are different, they recognize and love their blackness..
I remember a Youtube series...long gone, of an African American who girl was traveling through Egyptian Nubia, and living with a Nubian Family and she talked about he first hand experience of hospitality and how the Nubians called he their "Black Sister"...etc. She chalked it up to Muslim hospitality to strangers but also to a genuine pride for African Americans for the strides we made in further the plight of blackness.
Anyways Long Rant...sorry lol.
but before I go, not all Muslims or North Africans are like that...some of the DNA videos I watch are proud of DNA links to West Africans..
This one is interesting...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52poF8rJatc ^^^^ She exposes the desperation to be white by her kinsmen, rolling her eyes the way Blacks in America roll out eyes are the lightskin folks who think they're gods gift to earth..
She's probably African American imposing our standards on people
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Haratin is a multifaceted designation.
Usage is applied to different populations pending local meanings.
Algerian oasis Haratin aren't the same as Maurianian Hartini. They are Masters of the Waters and no oasis could live w/o them.
The former is much more a few millenia old mostly endogamous breeding population.
The latter is more a class designation for people.
I aint saying I know more n you but my resources go back farther plus this old man's held company of students and expatriates from the NW sector of Africa.
Just a few hours ago I went to buy couscous from Egyptian merchants who always show me nothng but respect expected in human interactions. But when I left and pulled opened the door an 'Arab' tried to walk in. I had to physically push him two feet back and told him I'm not his slave as he tried to walk through me after I told him I'm not holding the door for him but opening it for me. As he walked in the door after my exit he started to mouth off something until I turned around with fiery eyes and loudly told him again I'm not your slave. I stood ready. This burly man 30 yrs my junior turned and entered the store.
I am glad and thankful I did not have to go to jail for defending my honour. I do not the HipHop era blk kids who freely call themselves niggers in the presence of non-blx to disrespect me either. I suspect one o dem gon murder me once I'm too too old to defend myself w/o a firearm.
BTW bypasser harassing BHI are a far cry from "Black Jews". Obama's in-law Chief Rabbi Capers Funnye sits on the Chicago Board of Rabbis.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Thanks man, I appreciate the compliments, and you are right, Ill take your first hand knowledge. TBH I have'nt really studied the Heratin, All I remember is that some consider them the natives of Mariatania and Tunisia who were pushed south and enslaved by Arabs and Berbers, Then I read about them being slaves from sedintary Sudani people like Wolof, Songhai, Tekrur...etc.
Then I see black and tawny "Bidane" in their "Noble" or high caste robes, again my American culture sees them as black, and I know various Muslim cultures consider one an "Arab" through the Father, producing Jet Black Self Identified "Arabs" like the Sultans of Oman, and Blond Hair Blue Eyed Arabs sultans like the Al-Rahman caliphs of Andalus.
Even the Berber nationalist woman you posted considers Heratin as native North Africans and thus Berber and not Abid...
All I know is that the Heratin are still suffering, unlike white Europeans, the Arabs and Berbers are still proud of what they did and continue to do. Even the Confederates and sypathizers with the South, out shame tried to downplay slavery...claiming instead they were fighting for states rights.
Yeah it no funny Amazigh activist crying bout oppression and staging that "Berber Spring" while at the same time oppressing Berbers who are black and blx who aren't. Even though I taught Fanon as an undergrad I have as much use for him as 21st century Imazighen do who spit on that black man's efforts to champion Algeria against French colonialist abuses.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
Nah, you didn't. Dear Yvette?
Probably Black America's closest to best political analysist.
posted
America is changing drastically over coronovirus, health threat and huge economic repercussions and the poor will get it worse If you look at Yvette Carnell's youtube she's not talking about, she is behind
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Hey, the title tells nothing about the whole video. Vette even tells you about work around titling due to YouTube policy on Coronavirus, how YT might delete even appropriate vids to avoid lawsuits over pimping CoViD 19 mania.
Always with the know nothing controversy like you been watching Breakin Brown or Tone Talks solidly over any length of time.
You can't data mine troves of 90 minute long vids in 10 seconds.
Description: Ethiopian head. His hair is worked in very thick curls staged symmetrically around the head. The beard wraps in small twists along the cheeks and chin. The top of the head is pierced with a circular hole and there are still two hinges on the cover.
Mode of acquisition: legacy Donor (s), testator (s) or seller (s): Janzé, Hippolyte, viscount of Date of act of acquisition: 1865 Former membership (s): Janzé, Hippolyte, viscount of Inventory number: bronze.1018 Other number (s): Janzé.br.31 Bibliography: Snowden, Jr .. Blacks in Antiquity. 1970, p. 28, p. 81 no.54.
Volubilis (Berber languages: Wolubilis, Arabic: وليلي) is a partly excavated Berber city in Morocco situated near the city of Meknes, and commonly considered as the ancient capital of the kingdom of Mauretania.[1] Built in a fertile agricultural area, it developed from the 3rd century BC onward as a Berber, then proto-Carthaginian, settlement before being the capital of the kingdom of Mauretania. It grew rapidly under Roman rule from the 1st century AD onward and expanded to cover about 42 hectares (100 acres) with a 2.6 km (1.6 mi) circuit of walls.
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A anthropomorphic balsarium, a vessel to contain ointment, balm or salve, in the shape of a bust with Nubian resemblance. Second century AD, made of bronze. Probable origin: Egypt.
Currently on view in the permanent collections of the Art & History Museum in Brussels, Belgium.
A Roman bronze balsamarium in the form of a head, 2nd - 3rd century, Hollow worked head of an African man with braided hair and expressive face, teeth visible between the open lips. The eyes and teeth separately inlaid in silver. At the back of the head a loop hinge which enables the lifting of the lid. the top layer of hair. Two lateral eyelets already broken off during the time of use, which formerly held the carrying handle of the balsamarium. Green patina with slight incrustations. Height 9.5 cm. Provenance: Austrian private collection,
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Hey, the title tells nothing about the whole video. Vette even tells you about work around titling due to YouTube policy on Coronavirus, how YT might delete even appropriate vids to avoid lawsuits over pimping CoViD 19 mania.
I have probably been watching her videos before you have She doesn't monetize her videos with ads. People who monetize are the ones concerned because they leave the video but take away the ads so it can't make ad money.
So to prove you know what you are talking about reference a video title where she spends substantial time talking about coronavirus but it's not in the title, I'll wait
I made a thread on her in 2018 (although I know she goes back much further)
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Wait forever! I don't jump for you. Have nothing to prove to you. So continue w/yr blab blab woof woof Sekhmet chaos for those who'll eat it.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: America is changing drastically over coronovirus, health threat and huge economic repercussions and the poor will get it worse If you look at Yvette Carnell's youtube she's not talking about, she is behind
Description: Ethiopian head. Her hair is worked in very thick curls staged symmetrically around the head. The beard wraps in small twists along the cheeks and chin. The top of the head is pierced with a circular hole and there are still two hinges on the cover.
1) How did they figure out this is the head of a slave?
2) Why is the has claimed to be from a female, while there clearly is a mustache visible?
The same was done here, when there clearly is facial hair:
The face and bust of the woman almost face completely forward and are painted against a gray background. Her face is chubby, her chin round and prominent. The support consists of a thin strip of limewood glued to a more recent plank. Recent restoration work removed modern additions on the upper corners, which were intended to give this portrait a rectangular form. It has been returned to its original curved shape.
Portrait of a woman
The woman's face is painted quite graphically. The eyes have a black pupil, brown iris, and highlights for the whites of the eyes. The eyelashes are depicted by lines all around the two eyelids. The thick eyebrows, which meet at the bridge of the nose, are indicated by crosshatching. The nose is round and fleshy, and her forehead is marked by two deep lines. Curls form black rings all around her head, against the gray background. She has small black curls on her forehead, as well as spots of gray that create shadows. Her ears are partly hidden by her hair.
Sober attributes
The white tunic is decorated with purple bands, or clavii, over the shoulders. The thick folds of the cloak over her left shoulder cross over her chest; these folds are indicated by sketchy brushstrokes. The woman is wearing a large necklace; the links are represented by light-colored lines. An oval pendant stands out against her white tunic. She is also wearing earrings consisting of three beads.
An adapted encaustic technique
The portrait was painted without an undercoat. The gray background was applied directly to the wood in a single layer. The paint itself, which has a wax binder (the Greek encaustic technique), is very smooth and applied in thin layers. This technique was usually used by the Egyptians for distemper painting, which uses a water-soluble binder. The painter therefore first applied a red ocher background over the entire surface. He then applied light ocher to the cheeks, the chin and the forehead. Finally, he completed the shading using yellow-ocher hatching, notably on the chin, above the lips, to the right of the nose, and on the forehead. The painter also rendered the brilliance of the bridge and the tip of the nose with white paint. Shadows were represented with black under the lips, under and to the left of the nose, and finally, around the eyes.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: America is changing drastically over coronovirus, health threat and huge economic repercussions and the poor will get it worse If you look at Yvette Carnell's youtube she's not talking about, she is behind
1) How did they figure out this is the head of a slave?
2) Why is the has claimed to be from a female, while there clearly is a mustache visible?
1) There are many of these balsarium containers some depicting Africans others Greco-latin types I'm not sure how they determined slave but it probably pertains to the all of these balsariums, the ones that depict Africans
Is anyone able to find more information about this picture?
^^ from the above link we get this> _____________________
Bronze head of a Numidian man, bearing traces of dark brown pigment on one eyelid and on the lips. He wears an ancient Egyptian/Kushite short coiled hairstyle. Volubilis, Roman Mauretania. 200BC… More Tried this Pin? Add a photo to show how it went
Add photo Amina Bari Amina Bari saved to MELANO-MEDITERRANEAN Bronze head of a Numidian man, bearing traces of dark brown pigment on one eyelid and on the lips. He wears an ancient Egyptian/Kushite short coiled hairstyle. Volubilis, Roman Mauretania. 200BC. Museum of Rabat, Morocco.
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^^ this is pinterest
It seems like the person who made this caption is assuming it's a Numidian must simultaneously wearing a "Nubian" hairstyle
It reminds me of a post Tukular had I think in this thread. I'm not sure if he deleted it the Bardo herm head, I did a thread on it
"Crown pillar-shaped head of a man from probably Western Sudan, at the Bardo Museum. Unknown origin or dating (Baths of Antoninus, Roman Carthage)"
(this was the wiki caption)
but when he made the post on it he called it a Numidian. Read the page from Blacks in Antiquity: Ethiopians in the Greco-Roman Experience, p 142
Snowden calls it an Ethiopian and he says it in context of similar looking Roman art and the Romans often refer to Ethiopians in their texts
I would not assume that the bronze Balsarium or Bardo herm are Numidians because the items were found in North Africa and resembles the hair styles of Numidians on Trajan's Column or that all the mosaics in Roman Africa represent berbers
We know the Romans had about 20% slaves in many of their settlements, slaves of different ethnicity but I don't know if that bronze balsarium depicts a slave
In my opinion the bronze balsarium above and the black stone herm from Bardo look like Africans but one cannot assume they are North Africans just because the piece was found or made in North Africa and that this hairstyle is particular only to Mauretania
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Can ya imagine a 21st cent intelligent blk person drudging up slave or "ethiopian" explanations by ytes for everything blk in antiquity north of 15 degrees latitude?
My copy of Snowden (1970) bought at Una's Liberation Bookstore in the good ole days has this caption for fig 54
54. Bronze head, Roman -- hair arranged in long rows of tight curls, broad nose, high cheek- bones, subnasal prognathism, thick lips. E. Babelon, "Tete de negre de la collection de Janze au Cabinet des Medailles/" Gazette archaeologique IX (1884) 204-206 and plate 27; E. Babelon and J. Adrien Blanchey, Catalogue des bronzes antiques de la Biblio- theque Nationale (Paris 1895) 443-444, no. 1018
The book got plenty of corkscrew haired bronzes.
The original Image of the Black in Western Art v1 (1976) fig 304
304. Perfume vase: head of a Negro. Roman Period. Bronze H: 15.8 cm Paris Bibliotheque Nationale. "one, a vase, a careful study of a lively face, with a painstaking rendering of the unusual beard,"
same source notation as above
I no longer own Before Color Prejudice so can't reference it.
Snowden doesn't say anything about the figure's nationality.
Doubt anybody along the Nile was meant --(because mustachioed and bearded).
posted
Forty2Tribes, you heard Jabari has coronavirus for 2 weeks?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
Nah, you didn't. Dear Yvette?
Probably Black America's closest to best political analysist.
Indeed. Unfortunately there isn't much competition.
It's tough to be a non-negro mentalitied leader in Black America.
Sometimes her prejudice dives into the deep end but I can easily overlook that.
It's time Descendants of American Slaves see themselves as a particular nation of black people.
Some blk immigrants are surely out they mind thinking they're Foundational Black Americans while they eat fufu and stinking fish and'd never touch cornbread hogmaws and chitlins or eating callaloo and saltfish but clueless about collards and catfish.
At s*la we have cou cou and codfish but then we're Pan-Africa Israel I know, I know.
=-=-=
<<meow>>
I had always wanted to post Snowden 1970 fig 85 w/t two previously posted herms side by side. Got no flatbed, hand-scanner dropped and broken long long ago, library one out of commission.
So I did the best I could via internet imgs but then what's a mobile device good for?
but I'm wondering what that mohawk looking hairstyle on the left bust, if I'm seeing it right, if that corresponds to some group in Africa or maybe the Egyptian foreigner pantheon. Also noticeably, the left figure has a narrower face than the one on the right, an egghead
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Unknown to you, sure.
Both are "libyans" of Tunis association.
Check ethnic coif descriptions in ethno-geographies of Herodotus Scylax Strabo Diodorus Pliny Ptolemy and even the Byzantines to figger out tribe
Look it up don't make it up
Have fun, let's see what the Cat can drag in. This Dog done ruined the rug already. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009649;#000046 (64) G. Charles-Picard, "Tunisia" s.v. Archaeology News: Classical Lands, AJA LII (1948) 498 and plate XLVI; G. and C. Charles Picard, Daily Life in Carthage at the Time of Hannibal (New York 1961) 216 and G. Picard, Carthage (new York 1965) plate 2, p.18.
Whoops better tack this here less it disappear like Energy's whole Hebrew thread did. Egyptian foreigner pantheon? What dat?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ they are of unknown ethnicity
but I'm wondering what that mohawk looking hairstyle on the left bust, if I'm seeing it right, if that corresponds to some group in Africa or maybe the Egyptian foreigner pantheon. Also noticeably, the left figure has a narrower face than the one on the right, an egghead
BOOK IV. THE FOURTH BOOK OF THE HISTORIES, CALLED MELPOMENE
174. Above these towards the South Wind in the region of wild beasts dwell the Garamantians, 157 who fly from every man and avoid the company of all; and they neither possess any weapon of war, nor know how to defend themselves against enemies.
175. These dwell above the Nasamonians; and next to the Nasamonians along the sea coast towards the West come the Macai, who shave their hair so as to leave tufts, letting the middle of their hair grow long, but round this on all sides shaving it close to the skin; and for fighting they carry shields made of ostrich skins. Through their land the river Kinyps runs out into the sea, flowing from a hill called the "Hill of the Charites." This Hill of the Charites is overgrown thickly with wood, while the rest of Libya which has been spoken of before is bare of trees; and the distance from the sea to this hill is two hundred furlongs.
176. Next to these Macai are the Gindanes, whose women wear each of them a number of anklets made of the skins of animals, for the following reason, as it is said:—for every man who has commerce with her she binds on an anklet, and the woman who has most is esteemed the best, since she has been loved by the greatest number of men.
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Excavations at thera - Volumes 5-7 - Page 45books.google.com › books Spyridon Marinatos - 1972 FOUND INSIDE - PAGE 45 Happily, Herodotus says that both these features characterize a Libyan clan inhabiting the shore. Its name is given in Greek as Makai (Maxai). They are the Mashuasha or Mashasha of the Egyptian sources. They were warlike people and ...
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Pharaohs, Fellahs and Explorers - Page Amelia Ann Blanford Edwards - 1891 PAGE 84 The side-lock was a fashion peculiar to the Libyans and Mashu- asha outside Egypt ; and it is stated by Herodotus that the Maxyans (who are in all probability identical with the Mashuasha of Egyptian inscriptions), allowed their hair to grow in ...
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Sho far sho good ... tilt
Mrroww u did do it in no time n did it right
I'm old and slow As yr teacher u just made me proud now lemme go git loud
The Student's Manual of Oriental History: A Manual of the Ancient ..., Volume 2 By François Lenormant, Elisabeth Chevallier 1891
There is, however, much still to be done before the importance of Libyan myths in primitive Grecian mythology is fully understood. The existence and origin of these traditions, for a long time inexplicable, is now easily understood, when the Egyptian monuments have revealed the relationship of the Pelasgic populations to the Libyans, the bonds of alliance and incessant communication in the times of the nineteenth and twentieth Egyptian dynasties between the Achaeans of the Peloponnesus and the Arian tribes of Northern Africa, and the part taken by the Achaeans, Tyrrhenians, Laconians, and Philistines of Crete, in the attacks of the Libyans and Mashuash, or Maxyans, on Egypt. Herodotus mentions the nations beyond Lake Triton as being no longer nomadic. “Westward of the River Triton, and adjoining upon the Auseans, are other Libyans, who till the ground and live in houses; these people are named the Maxyans. They let the hair grow long on the right side of their heads, and shave it close on the left; they besmear their bodies with red paint, and they say that they are descended from the men of Troy. Their country and the remainder of Libya towards the west is far fuller of wild beasts and of wood than the country of the wandering people.” The Maxyans, as we have already said, are the Mashuash of the Egyptian monuments, who were at one time settled much nearer the valley of the Nile. In reading the description given of their costume, it seems to represent those Tamahu, or Japhetic Libyans, depicted on the Pharaonic monuments with a lock of braided hair falling on one side of the head, the rest of which is shaved, and the body tattooed all over. “Next to the Maxyan Libyans are the Zavecians, whose wives drive their chariots to battle.”f The Zavecians are evidently the ancestors of the Zuavas of Algeria, an essentially warlike population, from amongst whom were first raised the French Zouaves, and who have preserved their name for ages. “On them border the Gyzantians, in whose country a vast deal of honey is made by bees; very much more, however, by the skill of men. The people all paint themselves red, and eat monkeys, whereof there is inexhaustible store in the hills.”f These Gyzantians, or Byzantes, were among the tribes in whom the Arian blood was purest; for Scylax describes them as still in his time fair, and remarkably handsome. They formed a numerous nation; a small portion, however, alone was independent, and preserved its former customs. The greater part had joined the Liby-Phoenicians and
[ocr errors] the Carthaginian colonists (whose manners and language they adopted) in the province to which the name of Byzacium had been given. “It seems to me that Libya is not to compare for goodness of soil with either Asia or Europe, except the Cinyps region, which is named after the river that waters it. This piece of land is equal to any country in the world for cereal crops, and is in nothing like the rest of Libya. For the soil here is black, and springs of water abound, so that there is nothing to fear from drought; nor do heavy rains (and it rains in that part of Libya) do any harm when they soak the ground. The returns of the harvest come up to the measure which prevails in Babylonia. The soil is likewise good in the country of the Euesperites, for there the land brings forth in the best years a hundred-fold; but the Cinyps region yields three hundred-fold.”" What Herodotus here says of the extraordinary fertility of certain parts of Africa is confirmed by modern witnesses. The territory of Carthage, now the government of Tunis, was in this respect one of the most favoured regions of the African continent. 6. Herodotus does not mention the nations of the Atlas region, nor those of the districts now called Algeria and Morocco. We gather our information about these countries from the Greek and Roman historians of a later period. We have already quoted the valuable extracts on their original population, made by Sallust from the books of Hiempsal and other Carthaginian authors. The tradition, faithfully recorded by this historian, of the Medes, Persians, and Armenians, who arrived in Western Africa by sea, and who had belonged to the army of Hercules during his expedition into Spain, seemed formerly a fable invented by the Numidians, in order to claim for themselves an illustrious origin; but after the light thrown by the Egyptian inscriptions on the history of Northern Africa, it is impossible to avoid recognising a distorted but well-founded tradition of the establishment of a branch of the great Arian colony in Libya, probably not the one settled on the banks of Lake Triton, and possibly Iranian. Thus is explained the presence, among the Kabyles of Algeria, of fair-haired tribes, who have been there from time immemorial, and who plainly belong to the IndoEuropean stock—tribes among whom it was at one time thought were to be found the descendants of the Vandals. The union of the Arian invaders with the ancient populations of the coast sprung from Phut gave birth to the Mauri, or Maurusii, whose primitive name it has been asserted was Medes, probably an alteration of the word, Amazigh. The alliance of the same invaders with the Getulians beyond the Atlas, produced the Numidians. The Mauri were agriculturists, and of settled habits; the Numidians, as
[ocr errors] their Greek appellation indicates, led a nomadic life. They bore the same relation to each other as do now the two elements into which the population of Algeria and Morocco is divided. On one side the Moors of the towns, the Berbers, Kabyles, or Schillus, who lead in the mountains a settled agricultural life; and on the other the Arab tribes, who wander through the plains as nomadic shepherds.
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The tribe of Sea Peoples known as the Meshwesh rose to prominence during the reign of Ramesses III in Egypt. Some of the first references to this group appear in the Medinet Habu inscriptions, the Harris Papyrus and the Anastasi Papyrus. They are also depicted in several reliefs detailing the battles the Egyptians fought against the Sea Peoples. During the recurring, incessant border wars of the time, the Meshwesh first appeared as kindred tribes of the Tehenu and Temehu, but began to play increasingly substantial roles in the later campaigns. In 1182 BC, Egypt was under threat from an alliance between the Libyans and the Meshwesh -who possibly also coordinated an attack with the Peleset and the Tjekker. Even if it is not certain many Labu (Lybians) who wore the phallus sheath may have been Meshwesh. Following Ramesses III’s victory in the second Libyan war, the Meshwesh were left with enough strength and numbers to become Egypt’s chief opponent for the remainder of the conflict. Another historical record of the Meshwesh comes from inscriptions found at Karnak from Merneptah’s victory in Libya during the fifth year of his reign—when he fought against an army composed of the Libyans, Meshwesh, and other northern sea-borne forces. The Meshwesh are again found in the Classical writings of Herodotus, over a thousand years later. He refers to this group of peoples as the "Maxyes", and offers the most physical description outside of the pictorial reliefs. Herodotus describes their semi-barbaric hairstyle—consisting of shaving one side of the head while leaving the other—and the fact that they paint their bodies and lay claim to Trojan heritage. He goes on to talk about the land from which they came (eastern Libya), all the while making sure to guard himself by saying that he cannot vouch for any of these statements, he is merely passing along what he himself has heard. These are the two major sources for description, both physical and cultural, for the Meshwesh. They are initially identified in Egyptian battle records as having fought alongside the Libyans and their allies, but also recognized as having risen to their own respective seat of power following these skirmishes. The fact that they are again specifically singled out by Herodotus in his Histories serves notice to the fact that they were indeed a significant socio-political entity in the Eastern Mediterranean at this time.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: stfu, thanks
I don't know what to make of this? It's like receiving lap-dance and a slap in the face at the same time. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Macae/Makai are mentioned by six classical authors one of whom mentions their coif, a dead ringer for the coastal North African herm.
Anything else is sour grapes not champaigne.
Don't knock your A down to a D because of need to fight against knowledge I lead you to w/some cockamamie wishology like "I'm determined to make the herm unknown or an Egyptian foreign pantheon member." Nobody been doing this for decades, like me, and taught you where to look gonna accept you over all the ancient accounts or believe you trying to originate the art anywhere except where it's from, 2nd cent CE Carthage and the commisioner who wanted to depict the best mercenaries to the east (Macae) and to the west (Numidia) or pretending sidelocks are a center plait.
But gwan knock yourself out. Those really seeking knowledge have learned something they probably had no idea of till today.
Nah no thank me, it's my job --An Authentic Africana-- <<hear me o ancestored Cheikh Anta>>
BTW I always reread posts in a thread. Ppl maybe weren't finished composing it first time I read it. Like me, who's always tweaking for clarity or expanding w/a lil tidbit. This not a game for me. Been about this since a pre-teen when I was corporally punished for demonstrating w/t class geography map that Egypt is located in Africa although the correct test answer was Asia.
<<hey this guy's hell driven by ghosts of colonialism past>>
The Meshwesh are again found in the Classical writings of Herodotus, over a thousand years later. He refers to this group of peoples as the "Maxyes", and offers the most physical description outside of the pictorial reliefs. Herodotus describes their semi-barbaric hairstyle—consisting of shaving one side of the head while leaving the other—and the fact that they paint their bodies and lay claim to Trojan heritage.
Crown pillar-shaped head of a man, at the Bardo Museum. Unknown origin or dating (herm type) (Baths of Antoninus, Roman Carthage)
Meshwesh
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] .
Macai (Makai)
____________________________________
THE HISTORY OF HERODOTUS
By Herodotus
Translated into English by G. C. Macaulay
IN TWO VOLUMES
VOL. I
BOOK IV. THE FOURTH BOOK OF THE HISTORIES, CALLED MELPOMENE
175. These dwell above the Nasamonians; and next to the Nasamonians along the sea coast towards the West come the Macai, who shave their hair so as to leave tufts, letting the middle of their hair grow long, but round this on all sides shaving it close to the skin; and for fighting they carry shields made of ostrich skins.
So this raises two questions:
1) according to the two pictures at top do the correspond, are the Meshwesh corresponding to the Bardo sculpture? - does not seem to
2) Does the Bardo sculpture correspond to the Herodotus description of Maxyes (Makai): the Macai, who shave their hair so as to leave tufts, letting the middle of their hair grow long, but round this on all sides shaving it close to the skin;
the middle of the hair is not long, it's short tufts, although perhaps "long" meant long in relation to shaven. Another translation says "their hair resemble a crest" , yes that seems to fit
It's not competent scholarship to have this one sculpture and no other art and them say it corresponds to a Makai(Maxyes) for sure as described by Herodotus but maybe. It's a descent guess but other than the Greeks and Romans this Macae people is unknown
and let's say late 19th c writers I quoted earlier are wrong Makai are not Meshwesh (Mashuasha)
Meshwesh
^^so could this conform to the Herodtus description. I guess it could if their hair is shaved on the opposite side, both sides in fact but our view is of a limp "mohawk" that is very long so it is flapped over the side of head we are viewing. But it's not convincing, you could never tell the other side is shaved by looking and they have also have sidelock and that is not mentioned in the Herodotus description
Crown pillar-shaped head of a man, at the Bardo Museum. Unknown origin or dating (herm type) (Baths of Antoninus, Roman Carthage)
^^^Let's say that this Bardo sculpture is a Macai (Macae, Makai, Maxyes) a North African as described by Herodotus
and he is just not a Meshwesh, he is some type of North African (kind of Caucasoid-ish featured) and his hair type is not depicted in Egyptian art, that Herodotus is describing some type outside of the Egyptian art we have seen
^^ Does that then prove this entirely different looking head is also some other type of North African or Numidian because it was also at this Roman bathhouse in Tunisa?
Of course not. One would have to call it a guess otherwise not be scholarly, it is assumption. It is unknown, both will remain unknown until the end of time
As we saw with the bronze balsarium, the Romans had an established motif of an African depicted with these types of hanging curls and these as well as small figure sculptures are found in different places and don't necessarily mean they are North African in particular or are native to the region where they were made. Scholars need more verification to identify these things.
As my teacher says:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You can't tell a person's ethnicity by looking at their faces/heads.
Snowden, Jr .. Blacks in Antiquity. 1970,p 284, notes to 109-110
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
^ Another fine example of making it up instead of looking it up methodology from a N African history "greenie" out to be contrary to select personalities. Yes we we were all greenhorns in the beginning until buckling down to learn not to win debates.
I still own Bates among others. Camps or Fentress won't help much on this. The UNESCO is better and good luck acquiring volumes of Libya Antiqua, but don't forget the www.temehu.com site which rises far above its ethnocentricism when it came out over a decade ago (my apologies to Nemenser for language we had to use against Nassbe attacking us in our house.
The maps based on 6 classical authors I named above clearly delineate Macae from any rendering of Meshwesh and lists several ethnies with Ma in their first syllable.
Please post Bates' maps and lists to disconfirm that statement.
Liberating oneself from the colonial mentality that Snowden, until his death, adhered to as yte Academia's sole approved responsible 'cullert" voice, one finds the same conclusion of flanking mercenaries adjacently east and west of Carthage as was concluded above.
Not gonna go back and forth on this. If any believe the last voice is the right voice or won't go back and reread the analysis then go ahead.
I'm willing to discuss. I will fail at debate. Debate requires a debate winner, it's a kind of game or sport. This is why we see many attempts, each at odds to the last, jumping from two unsustained non-researched opinions ("unknown"; "Egyptian foreign pantheon" whatever that gobbledeegook supposed to mean) to more and more conflicting guesses overturning those wild stabs in the dark vainly attempting to kill a factual base opinion unaltered since first posted.
Egyptology should be free of Deshret methodology, in my opinion.
Discussion, on the other hand, enriches all participants makes everyone a winner if their goal is adding the knowledge base rather than catty paw swiping just to be contrary or rankle readers. Knowledge: giving it away makes the receiver wealthy w/o impoverishing the giver.
Well, gotta keep the post counter clicking although the Classified Bots are doing that job of making the owner $$$. There's nothing wrong with that as it supplies us with this platform no longer officially attached to Egypt tourism etc.
posted
there is also a long dry gap on the Arabian peninsula where there are not sure about continuity, if there were people there in that period. The Libyans are mysterious in that they are militarily powerful enough to take on the Egyptians to some extent, be depicted in consistent clothing and hairstyle yet not have the ruins like the Nubians and Kermans. It's not clear if they were to a large extent sea people from the levant, maybe Iberia or if they go back 12,000 years. Also to what extent there were more African looking people in the area and for how long. Few of these details are known and probably never will be. Then there's the coins, the people look Greco-Roman but it is unclear to what extent the average berber at the time looked like that. The Juba I has a very European looking face yet prominent Numidian curls
this is bizarre to me. How to explain it. The beard is of inconsistent texture to the hair . It looks like a European type perhaps with dreaded hair which is possible but you don't see berbers who look "Caucasoid" or semi-Caucasoid dreading their hair in more recent times. Was it just leaders of the period that looked like this? Is it just a contrivance? I don't think we will ever know And what extent did the Romans bring in Africans from other regions into North Africa?
Libyan
^^ this could have been a darker brown skinned, hard to tell the original color, nevertheless it's a straight hair type. Why? Did this type come from across the Mediterranean or was the hair type indigenous? If so did the come 3,000 years ago or 12,000? We will probably never know
wikipedia:
Herodotus referred to the Troglodytae in his Histories as being a people hunted by the Garamantes. He said that the Troglodytae were the swiftest runners of all humans known and that they ate snakes, lizards, and other reptiles. He also stated that their language was unlike any known to him, and sounded like the screeching of bats. Alice Werner (1913) believed (in passing) that this was a clear allusion to the early Khoisan, indigenous inhabitants of Southern Africa, because their languages contain distinctive click sounds.
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Couldn't be Khosians, Garamantes were in Libya...
Unless it was Khsoian types were in NA at the time, a couple of photos we have seen
but then how reliable is this speculation just based on maybe a click language and Herodotus often being inaccurate?
Were Phoenician Cities laid on top of some other indigenous settlements? Not sure, more speculation. and who exactly were in the Atlas in those times?
yes, some forget it's just a sliver off to the West, but what did the density map look like 3,000 years ago or 10,000? Maybe there are some maps that might show more vegetation but human density would be more speculative
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Most UPPER Egyptians that were the ORIGINAL founders looked like Ethiopians and Nubians. No one was arguing ALL Egyptians through all eras looked like them. But that the founders DID.
Dude, sorry I have to interject here.....
Oi. But of course..
quote:Ramses was from Upper Egypt and his family upper Egyptian and not very mixed.
Huh? Upper Egypt had been mixing for thousands of years with both Asiatics and Lower Egyptians by the time he was born. The phenotype becomes less dominant by the New Kingdom so it's certainly possible he didn't have it. It wasn't completely erased, but it lacked it's prior dominance. Oh, and in the case of mass immigration and Asiatic rule, a large portion of Upper Egypt was theirs to control as well. That reconstruction could well be accurate, it's not impossible.
The fact is that during the first and second intermediate eras, waves of Africans from the south came into Egypt as allies and Auxilliaries as testified in their own tombs and artwork. It was always these southern folks who helpe repel foreign invaders. These are hard facts testified in the tombs and writings from Egypt. So how did "Asiatics" and Eurasians counteract all this blood flow from the South? Not to mention the 18th Dynasty border of Egypt stretched way down into Kush. So there was always plenty of Southern blood flooding into the land.
Not to mention large parts of Upper Egypt remained in Southern hands long after the 19th dynasty right up to the Persian period because of the strong ties between Upper Egypt and Kush.
These are hard facts and not speculation.
Here is a late dynasty mummy of Nodjmet,wife of High Priest of Amun. The significance of this is that Amun was strongly affiliated with Kush.
Also note this:
quote: Herihor never really held power outside the environs of Thebes, and Ramesses XI may have outlived him by two years although Jansen-Winkeln argues that Ramesses XI actually died first and only then did Herihor finally assume some form of royal status at Thebes and openly adopted royal titles—but only in a "half-hearted" manner according to Arno Egberts who has adopted Jansen-Winkeln's views here.[7] Herihor's usurpation of royal privileges is observed "in the decoration of the court of the Khonsu temple" but his royal datelines "betray nothing of the royal status he enjoyed according to the contemporary scenes and inscriptions of the court of the Khonsu temple."[7] While both Herihor and his wife Nodjmet were given royal cartouches in inscriptions on their funerary equipment, their 'kingship' was limited to a few relatively restricted areas of Thebes whereas Ramesses XI's name was still recorded in official administrative documents throughout the country.[8] During the Wehem Mesut era, the Theban high priest—Herihor—and Ramesses XI quietly agreed to accept the new political situation where the High Priest was unofficially as powerful as Pharaoh. The report of Wenamun (also known as Wen-Amon) was made in Year 5 of Herihor and Herihor is mentioned in several Year 5 and Year 6 mummy linen graffitos.
The de facto split between Ramesses XI and his 21st Dynasty successors with the High Priests of Amun at Thebes (referred to in Ancient Egyptian as Wehem Mesut or 'Renaissance') resulted in the unofficial political division of Egypt between Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt, with the kings ruling Lower Egypt from Tanis. This division did not come to a complete end until the accession of the Libyan Dynasty 22 king Shoshenq I in 943 BC. Shoshenq was able to appoint his son Iuput to be the new High Priest of Amun at Thebes, thus exercising authority over all of ancient Egypt.
..... Traditional Ethiopian kinglists name Herihor, and his successors through Pinudjem II, among the rulers of Saba in the Semitic Agazyan Ethiopian dynasty,[14] and he is considered to have ruled Ethiopia for 16 years in addition to being de facto ruler in Egypt. According to Ethiopian historian Tekletsadiq Mekuria, Herihor's father was the former High Priest Amenhotep, and his mother was a daughter of Ramesses IV.
Also note the following (beginning of 3rd intermediate period):
quote: Sometime during the reign of Ramesses XI, Pinehesy succeeded in temporarily removing the Theban High Priest of Amun, Amenhotep from office. This action is often referred to as "the war against the High Priest" or "the suppression of the High Priest Amenhotep". However, in a very detailed study, Kim Ridealgh has shown that the traditional translation "suppression" of the Egyptian term "thj" is misleading, since it suggests that Amenhotep was somehow besieged and/or robbed of his freedom. The term rather denotes a more general act of aggression.[5] Therefore, a more neutral translation like "transgression against the High Priest" is to be preferred.
Although this "transgression against the High Priest of Amun" used to be dated quite early in the reign (prior to year 9 of the reign, on the basis of Pap. B.M. 10053),[6] recently the communis opinio has changed to the view that it took place only shortly before the start of the Whm Mswt or Renaissance, an era which was inaugurated in regnal Year 19, probably to stress the return of normal conditions following the coup of Pinehesy.
.... Unfortunately, due to the very limited nature of the sources, the exact relationships between the three main protagonists, Piankh, Pinehesy and Ramesses XI remain far from clear. Some scholars believe that the Nubian campaign was part of an ongoing power struggle between the High Priest of Amun and the Viceroy of Kush[15] However, it is equally possible that Piankh came to the rescue of Pinehesy against some common enemy. In fact, neither the aim of the expedition nor its outcome are beyond doubt. It has also been argued that shortly afterwards Piankh disappeared off the stage with the Viceroy Pinehesy being reinvested in his former position as Viceroy, which would only be possible with the consent of Ramesses XI, either willingly or not.[16]
It seems that Pinehesy died of old age while still in control of Lower Nubia.[17] He was buried in Aniba, where a tomb inscribed with his name was discovered.
quote: [QUOTE] The point being that if there was any mixture it was between Upper Egyptians and people further south.
That is wishful thinking. We know from the first dynasty Upper Egyptians had no reservations taking northern wives. Neithotep's name would suggest she came from the Delta, as Neith's cult primarily resided there. In the sparsely populated Abusir el-Meleq, two skeletal types lived there, one associated with Upper Egypt, and the other with Lower Egypt. Years of contact plus a large scale migration from Canaan (following increased aridity of the Sahara at about 2,000 B.C) could very EASILY explain that reconstruction if true. I've no pony in the discussion of what Ramses is.So whatever.
quote: Sure some mixture did occur from elsewhere but as mentioned before the power base and origin of Egyptian culture was always in the South and derived from Southern populations.
Always? No. But the cultural origin developed there.
This is what is wrong... most modern Egyptians do not have "white" phenotype... yet here we are...
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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^ yes, "white" and "black" should not be on the census
there's no "yellow' or "red"
none of these colors should be on the census.
Everyone else is by nationality background only except Europeans and Africans. Many other counties don't have these skin color codes in their census
I think "Black and proud" was a mistake because despite the all the racist history in the U.S. I think many people of African descent like being called a color because the people in power call themselves a color while Asians, Mexicans and others don't have that perceived "privilege", they go by "foreign" names
However if you take away the skin color system attaching the word "American" resolves the issue
African American European American Native American Arab American Egyptian American Asian American
etc. ^^ all consistent "Black" and "white" should be deleted from the census but we think color is power "white" power, "black power" , melanated this and that The color focus needs to end
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It is about power... Europeans & European Americans both in Government/Educational Institutions/Military seeks to expand power and influence by expanding "whiteness" and limiting "blackness"
Notice..
White is not = to all "Eurasians"
Indians ( India) are Caucasions but not white..
Hilarious
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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It is about power... Europeans & European Americans both in Government/Educational Institutions/Military seeks to expand power and influence by expanding "whiteness" and limiting "blackness"
Notice..
White is not = to all "Eurasians"
one problem is identity based on "white"
or "black" That is an ideological problem
we should not play into that by agreeing to the terms
Nationalism is another problem
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posted
Euro institutions are now playing the same game with DNA...
Declaring some DNA Haplogroups Eurasians.. Same game different day
In his monumental two-volume study, The Invention of the White Race (Revised edition, 2012), as early as in the 1960s Theodore W Allen had documented the manner in which the ruling elite in the United States had devised the category of "white people" by way of economic exploitation of the African slaves and the social control of the emerging polities. More recently, in her Birth of a White Nation: The Invention of White People and Its Relevance Today (2013), Jacqueline Battalora has offered an examination of the enduring issue of race in the US tracing it back to when "white people" were invented through legislations and enactment of laws.
The problem with this scholarly body of literature is not only the fact that its erudite message does not get through the thick skulls of illiterate racists like Donald Trump's white supremacist supporters. The problem is that such archaeology of hatred does not erase the fact that a massive body of humanity has suffered precisely because they have been branded as "black" or "red," or "yellow" or "brown". Racially constituted to divide and rule, those colourful delusions have become social facts.
Central to all such socially constructed delusions are the relations of power they entail and sustain - whether colour-coded, classed, racialised, or gendered. "One is not born, but rather becomes a woman", Simone de Beauvoir declared in her path-breaking book The Second Sex (1949). In later, critical expansion of this idea, scholars like Judith Butler have shown how varied social practices are definitive to the social constitution of gender. The same is true about race or ethnicity. One is not born, we may extend de Beauvoir's insight, but rather becomes white, or black, etc
Although many today consider race to be an immutable characteristic, that wasn’t always the case. Before the 17th century, whiteness didn’t even exist as a racial category. It emerged for the worst of reasons: slave-owning politicians invented “whiteness” as part of a political strategy intended to restrict the voting rights of free black men. Lawmakers subsequently refined “whiteness” by developing a “one-drop rule” — the idea that one drop of African blood would make a person “black.” In other words, race isn’t just connected to voter suppression; black voter suppression created whiteness.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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