posted
The Nubians of Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt are Descendants of The Ancient Egyptians not The Ancient Kushites. The word ''NUBIAN'' Derives from the oldest Pre-Dynastic City-State in Egypt which was originally called ''NWB'' or ''NUB'' Because of it being a major source of Gold. Egyptologists intentionally renamed it ''NAQADA'' to disguise its link to The Nubians still living in Southern Egypt today. The terms ''NUBIAN'' and ''KUSHITE'' are NOT! Synonymous. The Ancient Egyptians referred to Sudan as ''KSH'' not ''NWB''. The true Descendants of The Ancient Kushites are The Dinka/Nuer/Mundari. The word for people in The Dinka language is ''KOCH'' or ''KOC''. The Nubians are not indigenous to Sudan. They are Migrants from Egypt who were pushed further South by The Romans. it was not Until the destruction and evacuation of Napata and Meroe by The Aksumites that The Nubians began to move in and push The Dinka/Nuer further South.
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I think that the Nubians were diverse people from Dinka- to Horner-like people (Somali/Beja). Personally, I assume that the early Nubians were Dinka- like.
Posts: 49 | From: Germany | Registered: Oct 2015
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as you can see The people of South Sudan best represent Ancient Kush
Definitely. I have seen many Southern Sudanese people like the Dinka or the Nuer who look like a carbon copy of the ancient Nubians in Egyptian art. Besides the traditional clothing of the Dinka/Nuer that is of leopard fur looks basically identical to some clothing of the ancient Nubians. However, keep in mind Beja-like people were also depicted in ancient Egyptian paintings. However, the ancient Greeks even the bible underline the tallness of the Nubians/Cushites. And Southern Sudanese are one of, if not the tallest people in the world. Saying that modern Nubians are probably the descendants of both- ancient Egyptians and Nubians.
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The Nubians of Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt are Descendants of The Ancient Egyptians not The Ancient Kushites. The word ''NUBIAN'' Derives from the oldest Pre-Dynastic City-State in Egypt which was originally called ''NWB'' or ''NUB'' Because of it being a major source of Gold. Egyptologists intentionally renamed it ''NAQADA'' to disguise its link to The Nubians still living in Southern Egypt today. The terms ''NUBIAN'' and ''KUSHITE'' are NOT! Synonymous. The Ancient Egyptians referred to Sudan as ''KSH'' not ''NWB''. The true Descendants of The Ancient Kushites are The Dinka/Nuer/Mundari. The word for people in The Dinka language is ''KOCH'' or ''KOC''. The Nubians are not indigenous to Sudan. they are Migrants from Egypt who were pushed further South by The Romans. it was not Until the destruction and evacuation of Napata and Meroe by The Aksumites that The Nubians began to move in and push The Dinka/Nuer further South.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: \ The word ''NUBIAN'' Derives from the oldest Pre-Dynastic City-State in Egypt which was originally called ''NWB'' or ''NUB'' Because of it being a major source of Gold.
Nubia, Kom Ombo (the city of gold) in Ta Seti Posted on December 29, 2015 by Aethiops Neo Matamoros
Those of us who study archaeology performed in Africa should know the term “Naqada” refers to Egyptian burial excavations. On the other hand Nubian burial sites were classified by A-group through X-group by George Reisner. We must know that archaeological and political borders are different. If we adhere to modern political borders and old archaeology, yes, some may find the location Kom Ombo to be in Egypt. But if one sticks to the rule of using multiple disciplines to substantiate such a claim, also new information as well as the information of our elders and ancestors, we would have to consider such a claim insufficient to answer the perplex question of whether Kom Ombo or /nybt/ originally fell under Egyptian borders or if it was a region of Ta Nehesi, which we know as Nubia.
With the evidence provided in Maria C. Gatto’s reassessment of the A-group culture, also in her “Cultural entanglement at the dawn of the Egyptian history: a view from the Nile First Cataract region”, and primarily the work done in “Nubians in Egypt: Survey in the Aswan-Kom Ombo Region”, we find the latest archaeological evidence to substantiate the claims of the Late Great Dr.Ben, that Ta Seti, or Nubia, was the mother of Egypt.
The Egyptian name for Kom Ombo is /nwbt/ “gold”. For simplicity’s sake let’s throw “Kom Ombo” out for a minute and establish that Ancient Egyptians called this region /nwbt/ “gold”. It has been argued in earlier research that the abundance of gold and gold mines in the regions of Kom Ombo in Ta Seti could indeed be related to the Greek use of the term Nubia. Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop wrote “...the etymology of Nubia is said to signify ‘gold’. Historically, Nubia was the country from which Egypt acquired all of her gold.”(1987: 105). Rosemarie Klemm & Dietrich Klemm discussed the etymology of Nubia being related to the Egyptian term “nub” (2012). Here we find a reference to Alfred Grimm’s citation of the primary source of a phrase/term “/tA nbw/ “The land of Gold”, coming from the 5th dynasty fragment list of Djedkare where exotic goods brought back from “Ta Nebu” were accounted. In Madjai-A Handbook for the Conscious Community I produced a term /smr-nbw/ “gold friends” which was associated with a particular people of Ta Seti. Fergus Sharman is another scholar who offers work on the etymology of Nubia and its relation to gold from the Bantu perspective. Sharman points to the quite plausible pronunciation of the Egyptian /nwb/ “gold” as NU-BWE by demonstrating its relation to the Bantu term M-BWE; precious stone. Sharman goes on to demonstrate the interchangeability of the N- and M- between the Ancient Egyptian and Bantu languages to substantiate a theory that the Ancient Egyptian term /nwb/ is etymologically related to Nubia. The evidence that Nybt is the etymon to Nubia is not overwhelming but it prevails over the lack of evidence to the contrary so much so that it causes its opponents to inadvertently switch their stance from what Nubia means to where Nubia is. If you go look over my previous articles address the meaning and etymology of Nubia you will see the former argument concerned the meaning of the name “Nubia”. This document concerns the borders of Egypt against Nubia and whether or not Kom Ombo is in what we call Nubia.
The current argument for scholars who disagree is now “Kom Ombo, or Nybt is within the ancient and Modern borders of Egypt, not in Nubia”. This definitive statement is subjected to the same rigorous scrutiny performed under the control of primary sources to see if the aloof nature of such a claim is qualified by one’s own research. Like; “Where you get that from?” or, can you please cite the primary source, i.e. ancient map or manuscript that one is using to definitive establish the “ancient borders” of Egypt?
In the first two parts of this Nubia Trilogy (two chapters can be found in Madjai-A Handbook for the Conscious Community) I presented primary accounts of the “borders of Egypt” which were left to us by Remetch (Egyptians). To Remetch the city /nwbt/ was in the first Sepat (nome).
First Nome: Ta Seti: Land of the arch or Ta Khentit : the frontier
1a– Pawareq (p-jw-rq ; Coptic Pilak, Greek Philae): Island, Isis temple complex (3rd cent. BCE). Temples of Hathor, and of the Nubian gods Mandulis and Arensnuphis 1b– Swentet (swn.w ; Greek Syene, modern Aswan) : Temple of Isis 1c– Nebeet, Nubyt (Greek Ombi-Kom, modern Ombo): Capital of the nome during the Ptolemaic period. Temples of Sobek and Horus (2nd cent. BCE) 1d– Abu (Abw ; Greek Elephantine): Capital of the nome. Frontier and garrison town, built on an island in the Nile. Temples of Khnum and Satet (since predynastic at least) and of Amenhotep III which was destroyed in the 19th century, Nilometer Kheny (modern Gebel)
This sepat on the first cataract was called Ta Seti. As Dr. Ben taught us, we all know Ta Seti existed as what we today call Nubia before an “Egypt” ever had sepats or even existed. The archaeology tells us this also. It is because the pottery of the Nubian A-group seems to blend seamlessly with the Tazain and Badarian cultures that preceded the Naqada cultures of Kemet (Gatto: 2005). Yet the contemporary Naqada culture (Naqada I) started in Abydos then moved southward leaving some grave sites retaining close to 20% Nubian materials. Abydos is not in Ta Seti and if Egyptian culture is first found around Abydos then it stands to argue that the original inhabitants of Ta Seti were not culturally Egyptians. Nubians were in Ta Seti before the concept of Egypt arose. It was the Naqada culture that descended on the areas of Kom Ombo and therefore the original natural “border” would lie between the original Egyptians and Nubian burial sites in the area. Also Kom Ombo /nwbt/ is not to be confused with Naqada /nwbt/ then by default erroneously lumped in with Naqada culture. Naqada (a different /nwbt/) is its own city located north of Edfu, Karnak and Luxor in the third sepat (nome) while Naqada Culture is an archaeological classification of burial sites in the area named after Naqada. The only extraction sites actually in Naqada is Naqada III, which is dated from 3200-3000 BCE and is contemporaneous with the decline of A-Group culture and the unification of Egypt. This means exactly what is stated, that Nubian Culture in the regions of Ta Seti was in decline at the same time Egypt is being formed. This makes it hard for one to argue Kom Ombo was originally in Egypt unless the subject’s uses an “ancient map” from the time where Egypt dominated and then enveloped the areas of Ta Seti. There is no primary source map extant from these time periods for one to draw such a conclusion about Ta Seti. If one is searching for ancient borders it would be an unfair assessment for one to not consider the political structure of the dominating empire that envelopes smaller or less powerful towns, villages or even nations into their own culture under the auspices of unification. Before the Unification of Egypt and the structuring of Egyptian political power no ancient Borders of Egypt could have existed or being enforced and Ta Seti. Ta Nehesi and Nybt stood independently in times when Egypt was not. At this time Kom Ombo was in Ta Seti (Nubia). Nubia did not move or go anywhere but its lower portions were engulfed by Egypt. As cited before, Nubian A-group archaeology resembles the Tazian and Badarian culture that preceded Egyptian culture in the area. Ta Seti was /tA sty/ before Egypt existed and Kom Ombo is still in Ta Seti. Now Ta Seti is a nome of Egypt but originally is was what we call Nubia today.
It was Ta Seti, the areas of Edfu south to Kom Ombo, Aswan on to the second cataract (before they were enveloped into the Egyptian sepat system) which Dr. Yosef Ben Jochannan calls “The Mother of Egypt”. In “Cultural entanglement at the dawn of the Egyptian history: a view from the Nile First Cataract region” Gatto reveals the debt of field research that has caused her to question whether the borders of Egypt enveloped Nybt (Kom Ombo) or not. Regardless archaeologist in 2015 place the borders of the classical Nubia north of Kom Ombo, in Jebel es-Silsila.
Gatto; Nubians in Egypt: A Study of the Aswan-Kom Ombo region. The Sudan Archaeological Research Society, p.74
I hope I have begun to detail why conducting a survey of this type by only using linguistic tools would cause one to form error riddled conclusions about the borders of Egypt. This has been one of my mistakes. The manifestation of an A-group Tumulus just east of Kom Ombo and Roman (Nubian) Tumuli just to the north of Wadi Kubbaniya are new developments in the research of Ta Seti that caused scholars to question ancient borders. As we see above Gatto discussed the border being more northward towards Gebel es-Silsila, between the modern towns of Kom Ombo and Edfu. this work is never done but I hope we can see that there is enough source material available beyond these three articles for us to research and begin to conclude that Kom Ombo was in Ta Seti.
Alfred Grimm: tA-nbw “Goldland” und “Nubien”. Zu den Inschriften auf dem Listenfragment aus dem Totentempel des Djedkare. In: Göttinger Miszellen (GM). Band 106, 1988, S. 23–28. Diop, Cheikh Anta. Precolonial Black Africa: A Comparative Study of the Political and Social Systems of Europe and Black Africa, from Antiquity to the Formation of Modern States. Westport, CT: L. Hill, 1987. Print. Klemm, Rosemarie, and Dietrich D. Klemm. Gold and Gold Mining in Ancient Egypt and Nubia: Geoarchaeology of the Ancient Gold Mining Sites in the Egyptian and Sudanese Eastern Deserts. Heidelberg: Springer, 2013. 380. Print. M.C. Gatto. Nubians in Egypt: Survey in the Aswan-Kom Ombo Region. Sudan & Nubia, No 9, published by The Sudan Archaeological Research Society, 2005 M.C. Gatto. The Nubian A-Group: a reassessment. M.C. Gatto. The most ancient evidence of the “A-Groups” culture in Lower Nubia.Studies in African Archaeology 7, Poznan Archaeological Museum 2000. Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^ Awesome article by Aethiops and excellently on point to what we discuss about this topic all the time in this forum.
It's been long noted by archaeologist that the so-called 'A-Group' or Qustul predynastic culture of Lower Nubia whom the Egyptians called Ta-Seti stretched as far north as southern Upper Egypt.
A-Group 3800-3100 BCE
Interestingly enough the 1st sepat in the list of sepats of Upper Egypt is southernmost one called Ta-Khentit or Ta-Seti.
At the same time, the northernmost area of predynastic Egypt showed more cultural ties to Libya (see: Delta: Tjehenu or Romitu?)
This means that dynastic 'Egypt' as we know it began with Naqada in between the Nubian south and Libyan north and the kingdom was formed by an assimilation if not conquest of the two.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The Nubians of Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt are Descendants of The Ancient Egyptians not The Ancient Kushites. The word ''NUBIAN'' Derives from the oldest Pre-Dynastic City-State in Egypt which was originally called ''NWB'' or ''NUB'' Because of it being a major source of Gold. Egyptologists intentionally renamed it ''NAQADA'' to disguise its link to The Nubians still living in Southern Egypt today. The terms ''NUBIAN'' and ''KUSHITE'' are NOT! Synonymous. The Ancient Egyptians referred to Sudan as ''KSH'' not ''NWB''. The true Descendants of The Ancient Kushites are The Dinka/Nuer/Mundari. The word for people in The Dinka language is ''KOCH'' or ''KOC''. The Nubians are not indigenous to Sudan. they are Migrants from Egypt who were pushed further South by The Romans. it was not Until the destruction and evacuation of Napata and Meroe by The Aksumites that The Nubians began to move in and push The Dinka/Nuer further South.
I have no doubt that the Greek term 'Nubia' is in fact derived from the Egyptian 'Nubt' meaning 'golden ones'. Though a distinction should be made between the Nubt of Naqada Culture and that of Qustul Culture further south in Kom Ombo. The patron of Naqadan Nubt was the god Set while that of A-Group Nubt was Sobek.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The Nubians of Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt are Descendants of The Ancient Egyptians not The Ancient Kushites. The word ''NUBIAN'' Derives from the oldest Pre-Dynastic City-State in Egypt which was originally called ''NWB'' or ''NUB'' Because of it being a major source of Gold. Egyptologists intentionally renamed it ''NAQADA'' to disguise its link to The Nubians still living in Southern Egypt today. The terms ''NUBIAN'' and ''KUSHITE'' are NOT! Synonymous. The Ancient Egyptians referred to Sudan as ''KSH'' not ''NWB''. The true Descendants of The Ancient Kushites are The Dinka/Nuer/Mundari. The word for people in The Dinka language is ''KOCH'' or ''KOC''. The Nubians are not indigenous to Sudan. they are Migrants from Egypt who were pushed further South by The Romans. it was not Until the destruction and evacuation of Napata and Meroe by The Aksumites that The Nubians began to move in and push The Dinka/Nuer further South.
posted
@TheLioness 1 through 7 are all Depictions of The Ancient Kushites. number 8 is actually a depiction of Egyptian Soldiers. We know those aren't Kushites because Those are Egyptian Grooming practices. The Kushites never wore that hairstyle or Cloth. The Kushites wore Leopard Skins and Yellow/Orange or Red hair Dye.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: \ The word ''NUBIAN'' Derives from the oldest Pre-Dynastic City-State in Egypt which was originally called ''NWB'' or ''NUB'' Because of it being a major source of Gold.
Nubia, Kom Ombo (the city of gold) in Ta Seti Posted on December 29, 2015 by Aethiops Neo Matamoros
Those of us who study archaeology performed in Africa should know the term “Naqada” refers to Egyptian burial excavations. On the other hand Nubian burial sites were classified by A-group through X-group by George Reisner. We must know that archaeological and political borders are different. If we adhere to modern political borders and old archaeology, yes, some may find the location Kom Ombo to be in Egypt. But if one sticks to the rule of using multiple disciplines to substantiate such a claim, also new information as well as the information of our elders and ancestors, we would have to consider such a claim insufficient to answer the perplex question of whether Kom Ombo or /nybt/ originally fell under Egyptian borders or if it was a region of Ta Nehesi, which we know as Nubia.
With the evidence provided in Maria C. Gatto’s reassessment of the A-group culture, also in her “Cultural entanglement at the dawn of the Egyptian history: a view from the Nile First Cataract region”, and primarily the work done in “Nubians in Egypt: Survey in the Aswan-Kom Ombo Region”, we find the latest archaeological evidence to substantiate the claims of the Late Great Dr.Ben, that Ta Seti, or Nubia, was the mother of Egypt.
The Egyptian name for Kom Ombo is /nwbt/ “gold”. For simplicity’s sake let’s throw “Kom Ombo” out for a minute and establish that Ancient Egyptians called this region /nwbt/ “gold”. It has been argued in earlier research that the abundance of gold and gold mines in the regions of Kom Ombo in Ta Seti could indeed be related to the Greek use of the term Nubia. Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop wrote “...the etymology of Nubia is said to signify ‘gold’. Historically, Nubia was the country from which Egypt acquired all of her gold.”(1987: 105). Rosemarie Klemm & Dietrich Klemm discussed the etymology of Nubia being related to the Egyptian term “nub” (2012). Here we find a reference to Alfred Grimm’s citation of the primary source of a phrase/term “/tA nbw/ “The land of Gold”, coming from the 5th dynasty fragment list of Djedkare where exotic goods brought back from “Ta Nebu” were accounted. In Madjai-A Handbook for the Conscious Community I produced a term /smr-nbw/ “gold friends” which was associated with a particular people of Ta Seti. Fergus Sharman is another scholar who offers work on the etymology of Nubia and its relation to gold from the Bantu perspective. Sharman points to the quite plausible pronunciation of the Egyptian /nwb/ “gold” as NU-BWE by demonstrating its relation to the Bantu term M-BWE; precious stone. Sharman goes on to demonstrate the interchangeability of the N- and M- between the Ancient Egyptian and Bantu languages to substantiate a theory that the Ancient Egyptian term /nwb/ is etymologically related to Nubia. The evidence that Nybt is the etymon to Nubia is not overwhelming but it prevails over the lack of evidence to the contrary so much so that it causes its opponents to inadvertently switch their stance from what Nubia means to where Nubia is. If you go look over my previous articles address the meaning and etymology of Nubia you will see the former argument concerned the meaning of the name “Nubia”. This document concerns the borders of Egypt against Nubia and whether or not Kom Ombo is in what we call Nubia.
The current argument for scholars who disagree is now “Kom Ombo, or Nybt is within the ancient and Modern borders of Egypt, not in Nubia”. This definitive statement is subjected to the same rigorous scrutiny performed under the control of primary sources to see if the aloof nature of such a claim is qualified by one’s own research. Like; “Where you get that from?” or, can you please cite the primary source, i.e. ancient map or manuscript that one is using to definitive establish the “ancient borders” of Egypt?
In the first two parts of this Nubia Trilogy (two chapters can be found in Madjai-A Handbook for the Conscious Community) I presented primary accounts of the “borders of Egypt” which were left to us by Remetch (Egyptians). To Remetch the city /nwbt/ was in the first Sepat (nome).
First Nome: Ta Seti: Land of the arch or Ta Khentit : the frontier
1a– Pawareq (p-jw-rq ; Coptic Pilak, Greek Philae): Island, Isis temple complex (3rd cent. BCE). Temples of Hathor, and of the Nubian gods Mandulis and Arensnuphis 1b– Swentet (swn.w ; Greek Syene, modern Aswan) : Temple of Isis 1c– Nebeet, Nubyt (Greek Ombi-Kom, modern Ombo): Capital of the nome during the Ptolemaic period. Temples of Sobek and Horus (2nd cent. BCE) 1d– Abu (Abw ; Greek Elephantine): Capital of the nome. Frontier and garrison town, built on an island in the Nile. Temples of Khnum and Satet (since predynastic at least) and of Amenhotep III which was destroyed in the 19th century, Nilometer Kheny (modern Gebel)
This sepat on the first cataract was called Ta Seti. As Dr. Ben taught us, we all know Ta Seti existed as what we today call Nubia before an “Egypt” ever had sepats or even existed. The archaeology tells us this also. It is because the pottery of the Nubian A-group seems to blend seamlessly with the Tazain and Badarian cultures that preceded the Naqada cultures of Kemet (Gatto: 2005). Yet the contemporary Naqada culture (Naqada I) started in Abydos then moved southward leaving some grave sites retaining close to 20% Nubian materials. Abydos is not in Ta Seti and if Egyptian culture is first found around Abydos then it stands to argue that the original inhabitants of Ta Seti were not culturally Egyptians. Nubians were in Ta Seti before the concept of Egypt arose. It was the Naqada culture that descended on the areas of Kom Ombo and therefore the original natural “border” would lie between the original Egyptians and Nubian burial sites in the area. Also Kom Ombo /nwbt/ is not to be confused with Naqada /nwbt/ then by default erroneously lumped in with Naqada culture. Naqada (a different /nwbt/) is its own city located north of Edfu, Karnak and Luxor in the third sepat (nome) while Naqada Culture is an archaeological classification of burial sites in the area named after Naqada. The only extraction sites actually in Naqada is Naqada III, which is dated from 3200-3000 BCE and is contemporaneous with the decline of A-Group culture and the unification of Egypt. This means exactly what is stated, that Nubian Culture in the regions of Ta Seti was in decline at the same time Egypt is being formed. This makes it hard for one to argue Kom Ombo was originally in Egypt unless the subject’s uses an “ancient map” from the time where Egypt dominated and then enveloped the areas of Ta Seti. There is no primary source map extant from these time periods for one to draw such a conclusion about Ta Seti. If one is searching for ancient borders it would be an unfair assessment for one to not consider the political structure of the dominating empire that envelopes smaller or less powerful towns, villages or even nations into their own culture under the auspices of unification. Before the Unification of Egypt and the structuring of Egyptian political power no ancient Borders of Egypt could have existed or being enforced and Ta Seti. Ta Nehesi and Nybt stood independently in times when Egypt was not. At this time Kom Ombo was in Ta Seti (Nubia). Nubia did not move or go anywhere but its lower portions were engulfed by Egypt. As cited before, Nubian A-group archaeology resembles the Tazian and Badarian culture that preceded Egyptian culture in the area. Ta Seti was /tA sty/ before Egypt existed and Kom Ombo is still in Ta Seti. Now Ta Seti is a nome of Egypt but originally is was what we call Nubia today.
It was Ta Seti, the areas of Edfu south to Kom Ombo, Aswan on to the second cataract (before they were enveloped into the Egyptian sepat system) which Dr. Yosef Ben Jochannan calls “The Mother of Egypt”. In “Cultural entanglement at the dawn of the Egyptian history: a view from the Nile First Cataract region” Gatto reveals the debt of field research that has caused her to question whether the borders of Egypt enveloped Nybt (Kom Ombo) or not. Regardless archaeologist in 2015 place the borders of the classical Nubia north of Kom Ombo, in Jebel es-Silsila.
Gatto; Nubians in Egypt: A Study of the Aswan-Kom Ombo region. The Sudan Archaeological Research Society, p.74
I hope I have begun to detail why conducting a survey of this type by only using linguistic tools would cause one to form error riddled conclusions about the borders of Egypt. This has been one of my mistakes. The manifestation of an A-group Tumulus just east of Kom Ombo and Roman (Nubian) Tumuli just to the north of Wadi Kubbaniya are new developments in the research of Ta Seti that caused scholars to question ancient borders. As we see above Gatto discussed the border being more northward towards Gebel es-Silsila, between the modern towns of Kom Ombo and Edfu. this work is never done but I hope we can see that there is enough source material available beyond these three articles for us to research and begin to conclude that Kom Ombo was in Ta Seti.
Alfred Grimm: tA-nbw “Goldland” und “Nubien”. Zu den Inschriften auf dem Listenfragment aus dem Totentempel des Djedkare. In: Göttinger Miszellen (GM). Band 106, 1988, S. 23–28. Diop, Cheikh Anta. Precolonial Black Africa: A Comparative Study of the Political and Social Systems of Europe and Black Africa, from Antiquity to the Formation of Modern States. Westport, CT: L. Hill, 1987. Print. Klemm, Rosemarie, and Dietrich D. Klemm. Gold and Gold Mining in Ancient Egypt and Nubia: Geoarchaeology of the Ancient Gold Mining Sites in the Egyptian and Sudanese Eastern Deserts. Heidelberg: Springer, 2013. 380. Print. M.C. Gatto. Nubians in Egypt: Survey in the Aswan-Kom Ombo Region. Sudan & Nubia, No 9, published by The Sudan Archaeological Research Society, 2005 M.C. Gatto. The Nubian A-Group: a reassessment. M.C. Gatto. The most ancient evidence of the “A-Groups” culture in Lower Nubia.Studies in African Archaeology 7, Poznan Archaeological Museum 2000.
Yes but the point im making is Todays Nubians of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan are Descendants of those Pre-Dynastic Naqada people because they still carry the original name which was ''NUBT''.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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Who are the "Nubians" of modern Egypt? The word Nubian was never used by the Egyptians to describe Kushites. The word Nubia derives from the city of Nubit (near Waset/Luxor) in Upper Kemet. The name meaning, City of Gold. Nubit is the indigenous name for what Egyptologists call Naqada, a made up name intended to disguise the original name Nubit and its obvious association with the "Nubian" people. Don't listen to me, do your research. The word Nubian to refer to Black people in southern Egypt and northern Sudan did not come into use until the 6th-century ce when the Christian Greco-Coptics began using it to refer to the Blacks still living in the Nile Valley (whether in southern Egypt or Sudan). The majority of the people called "Nubian" are not descended from migrates moving north from the Kushite Kingdom. In fact, they are indigenous to southern Kemet (Nubit). The people of Nubit are not from south of Aswan but were pushed south into southern Egypt and northern Sudan over several centuries (330 bc all the way to 525 ce) and brought with them their Upper Egyptian language and culture which is now called Nubian but is not descended from the Meroitic-Kushite language. We know this because the Nubian language has proven to be of no use in deciphering the Meroitic script. If it was related to Meroitic, it would be useful, as Coptic was for the Rosetta Stone. In fact, it was a combination of Coptic and Nubian that unlocked the Rosetta Stone. Unfortunately, many who call themselves Nubians don't know this and define themselves and their origins by Mainstream Egyptology's definition. So if the Nubians are actually Egyptians and not real Kushites, then where are the Kushites? Some of them were absorbed into the Egyptian exodus to northern Sudan. However, as Christian forces (from Aksum first and later from Greco-Coptic Egypt) destroyed Kush in 350 ce, most of them were pushed south into what is now Southern Sudan. Thus, the populations known as the Dinka,Nuer, etc are the pure Kushites of the Meroitic Dynasty. The people who are largely called Nubians, are not Kushites, but actually indigenous Egyptians given a new name that is misleading because people don't realize that it was not referring to Kush but to Nubit (renamed Naqada), Kemet's most ancient city
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by real expert: I think that the Nubians were diverse people from Dinka- to Horner-like people (Somali/Beja). Personally, I assume that the early Nubians were Dinka- like.
The Dinka people are THE Kushites because they still carry the name and grooming practices till this day. look up the word for People in The Dinka dictionary and you will see that it is ''KOC''. There's even a place called ''KOCH COUNTY'' in South Sudan. The Nubians are The Ancient Egyptians because they still carry The original name of Naqada which is ''NUBT''. The Ancient Egyptians never used that term to refer to Sudan.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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as you can see The people of South Sudan best represent Ancient Kush
Definitely. I have seen many Southern Sudanese people like the Dinka or the Nuer who look like a carbon copy of the ancient Nubians in Egyptian art. Besides the traditional clothing of the Dinka/Nuer that is of leopard fur looks basically identical to some clothing of the ancient Nubians. However, keep in mind Beja-like people were also depicted in ancient Egyptian paintings. However, the ancient Greeks even the bible underline the tallness of the Nubians/Cushites. And Southern Sudanese are one of, if not the tallest people in the world. Saying that modern Nubians are probably the descendants of both- ancient Egyptians and Nubians.
Herodotus referring to The Kushites as the Tallest people in the world is more proof that he was speaking about The Dinka people and not The Nubians. I don't doubt that The Nubians may have mixed with The Kushites but today they are distinct Ethnic Groups. The Beja are also not Descendants of The Ancient Egyptians but rather The Medjay. Both The Romans and The Arabs documented this.The Beja cannot possibly be The Ancient Egyptians because they are a Nomadic People which The Ancient Egyptians were not. The Beja are The Medjay who were also Nomadic people and inhabited The Eastern desert exactly like The Beja people today.
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: @TheLioness 1 through 7 are all Depictions of The Ancient Kushites. number 8 is actually a depiction of Egyptian Soldiers. We know those aren't Kushites because Those are Egyptian Grooming practices. The Kushites never wore that hairstyle or Cloth. The Kushites wore Leopard Skins and Yellow/Orange or Red hair Dye.
Picture Number 8 is actually a depiction of Medjay soldiers from Nubia!
These are Egyptian soldiers below!
The Medjay are distinguished from the above Egyptians by darker skin color as well as features like longer faces, narrower noses and thinner lips. Also the Medjay wear red colored skirts or red sashes which the Egyptians don't wear.
The Medjay were close allies of the Egyptians since before the start of the New Kingdom when they joined the 17th dynasty Egyptians in a war against both the Hyksos and the Kushites!
Middle Kingdom Map of Nubia Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The Well Defined Kingdom of Nubia, Nehesy & The Neh Bird, And Taharka In The Land of “Ta Seti” Posted on December 13, 2012by Aethiops Neo Matamoros The Kingdom of Nubia
I wonder why people become irate when I say /nHsy/ means Nubian? I don’t know but I’ll be really simple in this blog to make things clear.
I have already addressed the popular Egyptological definition of /nHsy/, “Nubian” in my document “Conversation on Nehesy The Nubian Pharaoh”. We also discussed how some often confuse Nubians with Kushites etc. See the breakdown; The Breakdown on Nehesy
Anyway today I want to present more sources that will help us know the borders of the “Kingdom of Nubia”. I will try to only present sources and information while keeping my commentary to a minimum(we’ll see how that works! ha!).
“The Four Races of Mankind”-The Book of The Gates
The people of Ta Nehesy are represented in the four races of mankind of the Book of Gates as /nHs.w/. Below is E.A. Wallis Budge’s translation. The questionable part of Budge’s translation does not concern the transliteration of the term /nHs.w/. Nehesu are represented in the “Four Races of Mankind”.
Budge’s translation;
“….. I was content with the hundreds of thousands (of beings) who came forth from me in your name of Nehesu;”
We can look at different translations and still see Nehesu represented in the “Four Races of Mankind”. Please see the Theban Mapping Project Link for photos of Nehesu.1 The point of emphasis is Nehesu were a prominent people in Egyptian Mythology represented socially, but not racially, as other than Egyptians.
The Borders and Crown of Ta Nehesy
Contrary to popular belief there was a crown of Ta Nehesy. I don’t mean a crown of Upper Egypt, I mean a crown of Ta Nehesy (Nubia). I do not know if this was a physical crown but claims to a “crown” of Ta Nehesy were made by Harsiotef.
Please see the quote from Harsiotef. We can get Mark Vygus Online Dictionary to translate for ourselves. Harsiotef “The Kushite” says he had the crown to Ta Nehesy. He also said Ta Nehesy had borders;
“(Harsiotef Stela lines 11–13): Dd n.i Imn Npt i-di(.i) n.k pA sHw n pA tA NHs di.i n.k pA 4 oaHw n pA tA Driw.f di(.i) n.k pA mw nfr di(.i) n.k pt mw Hwa nfr
‘Amun of Napata has said to me, “I give you the crown of the land of Nubia. I give you the four corners of the land in its entirety. I give you the good water; I give you a sky of good rain” THE JOURNAL OF Egyptian Archaeology VOLUME 95 2009
The area of Egypt does not see much rainfall. The “sky of good rain” is the Nubian sky. To scrutinize the term used for crown, it’s /pA sHw/. This is New Egyptian Grammar closer to Coptic. Then /sHw/ could be the coptic word “cwoyhi” which means “the top of the head or , a Crown”. Another option is the “pschent”, which is Greek way to say Sekhemti, an Egyptian crown. 2
What Harsiotef is saying is he was blessed by Amun(an Egyptian god), from Napata(a Kushite land), to conquer Ta Nehesy, i.e. the area between the First and Second Cataract. It is clear looking at the Stele of Senwoset III that Senwoset III was attempting to confine Nehesy to areas below the second cataract. Senwoset III’s boundry stelae are found in Semna (below the second cataract). Though Senwoset III never mention Kushites, he did mention that /nHsy/ Nehesy should not cross the border he called “Heh”. 3
So there were borders of Ta Nehesy. Now we also see a Crown of Ta Nehesy and as Harsiotef described we see “four corners” of Ta Nehesy. This lets us know that Ta Nehesy was a Kingdom. When you have borders, a Crown, abundant resources, highly sought after soldiers, and your people were represented in Egyptian mythology as one of the Four Races of Mankind, you have a Kingdom.
How Does The Term /nHsy/ Imply “Southern”?
Ta Nehesy is south of Egypt, north of Kush. Two major cities in Ta Nehesy were both called /nbw/ Nubu and /nbyt/ nub-ee-et. Both cities are names after gold. Egyptians traveled upstream to reach Lower Nubia for gold. Egyptian knew gold could be found in the southern lands of Ta Nehesy because it was the southern people of Ta Nehesy(Mena of Nubt) who founded and established Egypt.
IF we look at the glyphs for /nHsy/ we should notice G21 was used to signify the /nH/ neh in the word /nHsy/ neh-esy.
If we see Gardiner’s definition of G21 we see this bird is a Numididae Game Fowl.
We can also see this bird is used in the word /nHi/ “pray” and “eternity”. There are not a lot of Egyptian words that use this /nH/ bird but there are others. Numididae Guineafowl are not indigenous to “Egypt”. Specifically, the /nH/ Neh bird is a Helmeted Guineafowl (Numida meleagris) which are only found south of Egypt. Numididae Guineafowl are a “Ethiopian stock” says Wildlife of the World: a descriptive survey of the geographical By Richard Lydekker 4
Bird maps indicate the first place Egyptian would encounter this /nH/ Neh bird was in Ta Neh-esy, south of Egypt. “Taxonomy: Phasianus meleagris Linnaeus, 1758, upper Nile, Nubia, Sudan.” 5 Numida Meleagris habitat map;
Helmeted Guineafowl in the Egyptian iconography indicates that Egyptians must have encountered /nH/ Neh birds on exhibitions through /tA nHsy/ Ta Nehesy, or they could have received /nH/ neh birds as exotic gifts from travelers. Neh birds are non-migratory terrestrial birds whose natural habitat is south of Egypt. 6
Now we can at least see one way the /nH/ Neh in neh-esy could indicate south or southern.
The term /nHs/ also means to pray. We also should remember that most birds used in Egyptian Iconography are sacred. Nehesy could be a cultural indication of the lifestyle of the /nHs/ nehes people i.e. the way they pray, reference to unique animals of southern habitat, even the feather seen in the determinative used for /nHsy/ can be see in a stele depicting Assyrians ejecting “Nubians” (who were hired by Kushite Rulers of the 25th dynasty) out of Egypt. This feather was first used by Nubians for the arrows on Nubian Bows. 7 This same feather was worn on the headdress of Nubians. This can be seen on a Assyrian Stele of Esarhaddon’s invasion of Kemet. Esarhaddon expelled the Nubians and Taharka The Kushite escaped back to Upper Egypt(Nubia was enveloped by Upper Egypt at this time). See photos below. Find the “Nubian feather”
That is the same feather from this facsimile of the Inscription of Uni where the word reads /nHs/ nehes. Uni also confirms that Nehesu are mercenaries. This is how Kushite kings were able to hire Nubian soldiers. We all know Nubians were the “Royal guard” of egypt”; The Medjay. The cultural indication of /nHs.w/ being a different people than Kushites or Egyptians is undeniable. Look at the head feathers in the second photo above and compare to the facsimile below. Both the stele and facsimile are referring to /nHs.w/ Nubians.
There is no confusing Nubias with Kushites here. Follow me. First Taharka fought Nubians with Kushite warriors. Next Taharka fought Assyrians with Kushites, Egyptians and Nubians warriors. We can tell because when Taharka’s army was getting overwelmed Taharka’s cry to Amun of Napata reads like this;
“/i Imn pA i.iri.i n pA tA nHsy i.di [ … (16)… … ] imi iri.i sw n pAy.k inw n pA tA n #Arw I. amD r-r.k/
“Oh Amun, what I did in the land of Nubia, let [ … (16) … … ], let me do it with your tribute (inw) of Khor (Syria-Palestine) which has been turned aside from you.” 8
Taharkas cried to the God of Napata to let him do to the Syrians what he did to the Nehesu. We know by reading Kawa V( and by using geographical common sense) that Taharka encountered Nubians before he encountered /rmT/ Egyptian. Taharka’s cry; “let me do the same thing I did to Ta Nehesy to the land of Khol(Syria)” (paraphrased) indicates that Taharka’s excursion downstream(from Kush) before his sojourn in Ta Pedjet involved some military action in the land of Ta Nehesy. Remember what Taharka said on Kawa V;
Register (9) Now, the rain was in Ta-pedjet and made the hills glisten in their entirety.
Any man of Ta-pedjet was inundated with everything. Kemet was in a beautiful festival,
adoring His Majesty……
Register (13) ……..I came from Ta-pedjet in the midst
of the king’s brothers whom His Majesty had brought together
Register (14) “……. I was with him; he loved me more than all his brothers, more than all his children. I was distinguished from them by His Majesty; the hearts of the pat-people served me and the love of me was before all men.”
Register (16); ………….My mother was in Ta-Pedjet,…………..
All of these places in Ta Nehesy are south of Egypt, north of Kush between the first and second cataract. These areas were only included into Upper Egypt by Pharaohs like Senwosret III. Hut-nub, Nub, Nubeet, Wawet, Maam, Kaau were first the domains of /nHs.w/ Nehesu says Uni. Taharka’s told us that he came from a sojourn in Ta pedjet(Ta Seti). He confirmed this with “Nehesu land” in his prayer. So now after I have presented information and sources on everything stated; from the non-migratory terrestrial Helmeted Guineafowl’s (Gardiner G21) southern habitat, to the bird feathers seen worn on the heads of /nHs.w/ Nehesu in primary documents, to Nehesu existing in The Book of Gates as the prominent people from the Egyptian perspective, to Hat-Nub, Nub, Nubeet and all the most significant gold cites and mines being south of Egypt in Ta Nehesy, to Senwoset III border of Ta Nehesy, to Harsiotef claim of the Crown of Ta Nehesy, To Taharka’s crys; If all of the above cannot be accepted as considerable information regarding the definition of Nehesy and its southern indication, I can continue.
“He makes the Bowmen of Ta Pedet come to him. Their tribute is gold (in its vein of) ore, ebony, ivory, red jasper, green feldspar, panther skins” 8 My translation of The Acephalous Stela JdE285691
Next let’s scrutinize the term “Desert Nubians” and Ta Pedjet.
Ta Pedjet and “Desert Nubians”
/wDA Hm.f m xntyt r sxrt iwntiw nw pDt, aHa.n sx.n.i nHsi [m knkf] r gs nwtiw/
“His majesty proceeded upstream to overthrow the desert Nubians (lit. tribesmen of the bow). Then I smote a Nubian [at Kenekef] in the presence of the/my townsmen.” The Acephalous Stela translated by Rutgers U.
Above Khu-sobek is clearly saying he sailed up stream(headed south of Egypt)with Senwoset to Ta Pedet where he killed a Nubian in the center of town. Notice the word used here for “desert Nubians” is /iwntiw nw pDt/. /iwntiw/ means tribesman and has nothing to do with desert (Faulkner p.13). Ta Pedet is the place Egyptologist and Kemetologist alike call Ta Seti. Ta Pedet was independent of Kemet and as we can see by reading Khu-Sobek’s Stele, the glyphs say Senwoset took Khu-sobek to Ta Pedjet(Ta Seti). This is confirmed by reading Taharka’s Stele Kawa V. Taharka said when His Majesty took the throne he himself was in Ta Pedjet. Taharka’s following sentence confirms Ta Pedjet is a place as Taharka says the /pAt/ people of /tA pDt/ Ta Pedjet treated him well (Kawa V lines 14-16). The /pAt/ Pat of /tA pDt/ Ta pedjet were attested to by Taharka as the people of the place we call Ta Seti. So who are the Ta Seti-ans? I never seen that term in a primary document /sty.w/. The People of Ta Pedjet(Ta Seti) were Nehesy, Nubians. 9 The /pAt/ were Nubian dignitaries.
I know some are thinking of /stx/ Sutekh, Seth, Set etc. and his connotation towards the land we know as Ta Seti. Set was first venerated at Nubt but let’s examine this; Gardiner C7, which is the glyphs for /stx/ Sutekh is hardly ever used to spell “Ta Seti”.
The glyphs for Ta Seti and /nHsy/ Nehesy(Nubian) can be seen used together in the same sentence of Khu-Sobek’s Stele. They are in yellow below;
ook at the bow symbol used in the first word I highlighted. The word is /pDt/ pedjet. A bow is called a Pedjet in Ancient Egyptian, not a Seti. Also Faulkner list /pDt.w/ as “foreigners” (Faulkner Concise Dictionary Of Egyptian Grammar p.97). Khu-sobek said /iwntiw nw pDt/ which we see Rutgers U. define as; lit. Tribesmen of the Bow. This doesn’t make sense because the word /iwntiw/ by itself means “Tribesman of the Bow”(Faulkner p.13) /iwnt/ means bow. Alan Gardiner Egyptian Grammar page 495 tells us /iwnt/ was used in the Pyramid text to mean Bow. The -y suffix makes the word an adjective and the -w makes it plural, then Bowmen would be a better interpretation than “desert Nubians”, besides bowmen Ta Pedjet was know for rainfall. Faulkner’s definition “tribesmen” is not specific enough to scrutinize text of this nature. His definition of /iwntiw/ as “tribesmen” does not reflect his root definition of /iwnt/ Bow, instead it has extract and subtracted the root meaning “bow” from his new definition of /iwntiw/ “tribesman”. Also we see the land determinative in yellow above (N25) indicating that the word /pDt/ pedjet is a land. This should be translated as “Bowmen of Pedjet, Bowmen of Ta Pedet, or even Bowmen of Pedjet Khaset(The country of Pedjet) before “Tribesman of the Bow”.
On page 88 of Faulkners dictionary we see /pAt/ means “Patricians, Mankind”. On Taharka’s Kawa V Stele Taharka said he was in /tA pDt/ Ta pedjet amongst the /pAt/ people when His Majesty took the throne. 10
The above evidence shows that Ta Seti was a place called Ta Pedjet and that Ta Seti was occupied by /nHsy/ Nubians.
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If we look at the definition of Ta Seti(Faulkner p.253) we will see /tA sty/ uses a glyph similar to Gardiner T10. This glyphs is Gardiner Aa32 (or J32 depending of if your sign list is updated or not). If we look at every definition that use Aa32 we will get a hint that the phonetic quality attributed to Aa32, “Seti” is incorrect. In other Egyptian words we find Aa32 used as a determinative which has no sound. Aa32 is used as an /s/ in a word for Milk but it would be hard for one to explain why this was without addressing the misnomer I am speaking to. If we check Gardiner’s definition we will find Aa32 undefined and without phonetic quality. Gardiner tells us “For Aa32 see T10” (p. 543). Below I will post the definition for T10 and you tell me where you see /Sty/.
If we go look at the glyphs most often used to say TA Seti we will be hard pressed to find ta seti spelled with the Egyptian s-t-y symbols in a primary document. Actually when looking at the glyphs used to say Ta Seti we see the /pDt/ Bow and a suffixed /T/, or /pDt/ with two T’s which could represent the /d/ and the /t/ in /pDt/. We can conclude the two t’s in Taharka’s “ta Seti” could not be the phonetic complements to the word /sty/. Reading the glyphs lets one know this could have been pronounced /pDt/ “pedjet”, for the bow.
Read what Taharka said on his Kawa V Stele. It’s interesting that Taharka was talking about /tA pDt/ Ta pedjet and never mention coming from /kAS/ Kush. Taharka said he was in Ta Pedet before he came to Kemet.
Kava V from The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology Volume 95
Whether we say Ta seti or Ta Pedjet does not matter because Taharka’s stele says he was there amongst the /pAt/ people. He also referred to what he did in the land as TA Nehesy as he cried to Amun of Napata. Harsiotef said he had The Crown and Four Corners of Ta Nehesy. Senwoset III tried to expand the borders of Egypt to envelope the “gold lands” of Ta Nehesy. This is Nubia. Even the term Viceroy of Kush was not installed until c.a. 18th Dynasty, and even then the Viceroy governed Nubia, not Kush(no viceroys in Kerma!). A title like “viceroy of kush” could indicate that at some point Nubia fell under Kushite control. Before then this was the Kingdom of Ta Nehesy. Ta pedjet(Ta Seti) was a major region in Ta Nehesy and Taharka said he sojourned there. So everything we attribute to Ta Seti is attributed to The Kingdom Ta Nehesy, when we read the primaries. Dr.Ben said this in a witty way that was delightful for me to hear; “Nubia was Egypt before Egypt was Nubia”.
Viceroy of Kush
“Thutmose I (Akheperkare, r. ca.1527-1515), created the title of /sA nsw n kS/, King’s Son of Kush , and appointed Turi as the first viceroy.” 11
The above quote means there was no official “Egyptian governor” of the lands of Nubia before Turi. It also indicates that by the 18th dynasty Ta Nehesy must have been enveloped into /kAS/ or /kS/ Kush because the famous “gold lands” of Ta Nehesy are now discribed by Egyptian as being in Kush. The title Viceroy was /sA nswt/ and really just mean “son of the King” but the epithet worn by the Viceroy was “’Overseer of the Gold Lands of the Lord of the Two Lands’.
The /sA nswt/ viseroy was not a Kushite coming to see the Egyptian king, but was native Egyptian installed as a governor of foreign lands of Nub, Gold. The Viseroy was governor of the overseers and scribes;
/imy-r mSa.w nbw/ Overseer of the gold “gang” /sS Hsb nbw/ the scribe who counts the gold /sS nbw n xAst/ Scribe of the gold of foreign lands
The viceroy was in charge of everything; /n pr n pA nbw xAst/ “to(regarding) country of the gold”. By the time of Thutmoses II the “Nubians” had assimilate to either Egyptian or Kushite culture or they became confused(culturally) with Kushites in primary Egyptian documents. We know this because Taharka himself did not call this area Kush, yet see what Thutmose Inscription called the people of the land of Ta Nehesy(the inscription is at Aswan, Nubian County);
From the Aswan inscription of Thutmose II, Year 1;
“One came to inform his majesty as follows: “The wretched” Kush has begun to rebel, those who were under the dominion of the Lord of the Two Lands purpose hostility, beginning to smite him. …..”
James Henry Breasted Ancient Records of Egypt Part Two, § 121
I dont mean to point to the mistranslated term “Wretched”, I mean to show that by the time of Thutmose II “The Viceroy of Kush” had lost or had not established complete control over the land between the first and second cataract, which during the time of Thutmose II we see was called Kush. I also find evidence of Nehesu assimilation to Egyptian culture which could justify their 18th Dynasty absence from the area between the first and second cataract which during that time was called Kush. But Taharka didn’t call it Kush, he said Ta Pedjet and Ta Nehesy. We learned that captives of war had a chance to assimilate to Egyptian society by reading JJ’s Shirley’s dissertation “The Culture of the Officialdom”. Plenty egyptians wore /nHsy/ as a personal name. Royal people, pharaohs, viziers even The “Viceroys of Kush” called themselves Nehesy, Nehy and Panehesy, even Phinehas which is Hebrew for Panehesy, and I know some remember Phinehas(lit. the Nubian) of the Bible, The Priest of Israel, also Taharka The Kushite helping Hezekiah stop the Assyrians from burning down Judah. These dignitaries (all but Taharka) wore the name /nHsy/ to represent their Nehesy lineage. Most Viceroys of Kush whose name indicate “location” or “culture” or “a people” are adorned with /nHs/ in their personal name.
Names that include /nHs/
“Senebnehas (C): Wife of Sobekhotep III Titles: King’s Wife (hmt-nisw) , United with the White Crown (khnmt-nfr-hdjt), Hereditary Princess (iryt-p`t), Great of Grace (wrt-im3t), Great of Praises (wrt-hzwt), Mistress of the Entire Land (hnwt-t3w-mhw)
Nehesy The Pharoah of the 14th Dynasty
Nehesy, From the time of Hatshepsut (and Tuthmosis III?). Chancellor. Buried in tomb I.6 in the cliffs of the Bubasteion. Discovered by The French Archaeological Mission of the Bubasteion lead by A. Zivie. Nehesy was in charge of the famous expedition to Punt somewhere around year 9 of Hatshepsut’s reign.
Neshi, Chancellor, leader of the expedition to Punt, Chief treasurer. Buried in Saqqara (tomb discovered by Zivie)
Panehesy. The Vizier from the time of Merneptah is known from a chapel at the Speos at Gebel el-Silsila.
Panehesy: Viceroy of Kush at the end of the 20th dynasty. This Viceroy became persona non-grata. Panehsy, the most powerful person in the Thebaid, set up a military coup by his own decision and without royal support. High Priest Amenhotep may not have been killed then, but helped by the king, without gaining back his former position, however. A source of conflict was Amenhotep’s accusation of atrocities by the Nubian soldiers of Panehsy against the Theban population, whereupon Panehsy received the royal command to leave Thebes and to travel south. Nine months after the war had started, Herihor’s army dispelled that of Panehsy, the later enemy of state, to the south. Panehsy, buried in Aniba, can be considered the founder of an independent Nubia.
Panhesy, First servant of the Aten in the house of Aten in Akhet-Aten, Second prophet of the Lord of the Two Lands Neferkheprure-Waenre (Akhenaten), the sealbearer of the King of Lower Egypt. Overseer of the storehouse of the Aten in Akhetaten, Overseer of cattle of the Aten in Akhet-Aten. On one of the ceilings Panehesy mentions receiving gold from the king for doing a great thing for his lady, the king’s daughter. Panehesy’s wife was named Iabka.
Nehi: Viceroy of Kush under Tuthmosis III. Nehy was commanded to see to the renewal of the offerings installed by Sesostris III for the gods Dedun and Khnum at the Temple of Semna. Nehy Vizier of the South under Ramesses II. Mentioned by Kitchen.
Nehy? from the time of Ramesses III (IV?) Possibly a Vizier mentioned on blocks from Thebes. Appears in a scene with Ramesses III, Queen Isis and her mother Queen Hemdjeret? Possibly this is a scene depicting the installation of Isis as God’s Wife, which would date this to the reign of Ramesses IV Queen Ēse of the Twentieth Dynasty and Her Mother
Hesi – Vizier under Teti (maybe Unas?) – figure and name erased from Mastaba.”
(See source #12 & 13)
So now we see the Viceroy of Kush did not use names like “Kashta” or Kushesy” etc. Kashta was a Kushite King but I want all who can read glyphs to go and look at how Kashta was spelled. If you cannot read glyphs please use an online Hieroglyphic dictionary. It seems certain Viceroys used names that indicated themselves being from, or amongst the Nehes people of Nub. /sA nswt/ Sa Nesut did not mean they were of the bloodline of the King. Viseroys were chosen and appointed by the king as good governors of Ta Nehesu(or “Kush” during this time period) southern lands of Gold.
Conclusion
The term Nehesy does indicate south of Egypt. Ta Nehesy is Nubia which was a separate kingdom from Kush and Kemet. Ta Seti was call Ta Pedjet by Taharka(and others). Taharka also called the place, Ta Nehesy. Harsiotef manifested the Crown of Ta Nehesy. Senwoset III establish the borders of Ta Nehesy.
The denial of a Kingdom of Ta Nehesy(Nubia), a kingdom which was based primarily on the resource Nub(gold) of Hat-Nub (lit. Mansion of Gold), is denying one the option of referring to, or mentioning, a true Nubian legacy in Nilotic African culture outside of Kush and Kemet. Bar the flood of the Aswan Dam, the modern day Mahasi Nubians still live in the same area of “Ta Nehesy” as the did thousands of years ago.
Lastly, If one cannot see why Théophile Obenga, Cheikh Anta Diop and Dr.Yosef Ben-Jochannan use the term Nubian to describe Nehesy, then at this point I say too bad for you that you cannot see things the way our African Scholars and forefathers seen it.
Strait up, Yahya Mahasen The #Rapgod,
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: @TheLioness 1 through 7 are all Depictions of The Ancient Kushites. number 8 is actually a depiction of Egyptian Soldiers. We know those aren't Kushites because Those are Egyptian Grooming practices. The Kushites never wore that hairstyle or Cloth. The Kushites wore Leopard Skins and Yellow/Orange or Red hair Dye.
Picture Number 8 is actually a depiction of Medjay soldiers from Nubia!
These are Egyptian soldiers below!
The Medjay are distinguished from the above Egyptians by darker skin color as well as features like longer faces, narrower noses and thinner lips. Also the Medjay wear red colored skirts or red sashes which the Egyptians don't wear.
The Medjay were close allies of the Egyptians since before the start of the New Kingdom when they joined the 17th dynasty Egyptians in a war against both the Hyksos and the Kushites!
Middle Kingdom Map of Nubia
OK You're Right those are Medjay. but the point I was making is that those are not Kushites as many claim. They are The Beja People of today. They were called Blemmyes by The Romans and eventually Beja by The Arabs. This is well documented. This is important because I see Afrocentrics claiming The Beja are Ancient Egyptians when that's impossible because they are a Nomadic People and The Ancient Egyptians never had a Nomadic Cuture. All Evidence points to The Nubians being The Ancient Egyptians. Their Language even helped Decipher The Rosetta Stone. They are still recognized as Indigenous even by the very Arab Republic of Egypt.
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If we look at the definition of Ta Seti(Faulkner p.253) we will see /tA sty/ uses a glyph similar to Gardiner T10. This glyphs is Gardiner Aa32 (or J32 depending of if your sign list is updated or not). If we look at every definition that use Aa32 we will get a hint that the phonetic quality attributed to Aa32, “Seti” is incorrect. In other Egyptian words we find Aa32 used as a determinative which has no sound. Aa32 is used as an /s/ in a word for Milk but it would be hard for one to explain why this was without addressing the misnomer I am speaking to. If we check Gardiner’s definition we will find Aa32 undefined and without phonetic quality. Gardiner tells us “For Aa32 see T10” (p. 543). Below I will post the definition for T10 and you tell me where you see /Sty/.
If we go look at the glyphs most often used to say TA Seti we will be hard pressed to find ta seti spelled with the Egyptian s-t-y symbols in a primary document. Actually when looking at the glyphs used to say Ta Seti we see the /pDt/ Bow and a suffixed /T/, or /pDt/ with two T’s which could represent the /d/ and the /t/ in /pDt/. We can conclude the two t’s in Taharka’s “ta Seti” could not be the phonetic complements to the word /sty/. Reading the glyphs lets one know this could have been pronounced /pDt/ “pedjet”, for the bow.
Read what Taharka said on his Kawa V Stele. It’s interesting that Taharka was talking about /tA pDt/ Ta pedjet and never mention coming from /kAS/ Kush. Taharka said he was in Ta Pedet before he came to Kemet.
Kava V from The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology Volume 95
Whether we say Ta seti or Ta Pedjet does not matter because Taharka’s stele says he was there amongst the /pAt/ people. He also referred to what he did in the land as TA Nehesy as he cried to Amun of Napata. Harsiotef said he had The Crown and Four Corners of Ta Nehesy. Senwoset III tried to expand the borders of Egypt to envelope the “gold lands” of Ta Nehesy. This is Nubia. Even the term Viceroy of Kush was not installed until c.a. 18th Dynasty, and even then the Viceroy governed Nubia, not Kush(no viceroys in Kerma!). A title like “viceroy of kush” could indicate that at some point Nubia fell under Kushite control. Before then this was the Kingdom of Ta Nehesy. Ta pedjet(Ta Seti) was a major region in Ta Nehesy and Taharka said he sojourned there. So everything we attribute to Ta Seti is attributed to The Kingdom Ta Nehesy, when we read the primaries. Dr.Ben said this in a witty way that was delightful for me to hear; “Nubia was Egypt before Egypt was Nubia”.
Viceroy of Kush
“Thutmose I (Akheperkare, r. ca.1527-1515), created the title of /sA nsw n kS/, King’s Son of Kush , and appointed Turi as the first viceroy.” 11
The above quote means there was no official “Egyptian governor” of the lands of Nubia before Turi. It also indicates that by the 18th dynasty Ta Nehesy must have been enveloped into /kAS/ or /kS/ Kush because the famous “gold lands” of Ta Nehesy are now discribed by Egyptian as being in Kush. The title Viceroy was /sA nswt/ and really just mean “son of the King” but the epithet worn by the Viceroy was “’Overseer of the Gold Lands of the Lord of the Two Lands’.
The /sA nswt/ viseroy was not a Kushite coming to see the Egyptian king, but was native Egyptian installed as a governor of foreign lands of Nub, Gold. The Viseroy was governor of the overseers and scribes;
/imy-r mSa.w nbw/ Overseer of the gold “gang” /sS Hsb nbw/ the scribe who counts the gold /sS nbw n xAst/ Scribe of the gold of foreign lands
The viceroy was in charge of everything; /n pr n pA nbw xAst/ “to(regarding) country of the gold”. By the time of Thutmoses II the “Nubians” had assimilate to either Egyptian or Kushite culture or they became confused(culturally) with Kushites in primary Egyptian documents. We know this because Taharka himself did not call this area Kush, yet see what Thutmose Inscription called the people of the land of Ta Nehesy(the inscription is at Aswan, Nubian County);
From the Aswan inscription of Thutmose II, Year 1;
“One came to inform his majesty as follows: “The wretched” Kush has begun to rebel, those who were under the dominion of the Lord of the Two Lands purpose hostility, beginning to smite him. …..”
James Henry Breasted Ancient Records of Egypt Part Two, § 121
I dont mean to point to the mistranslated term “Wretched”, I mean to show that by the time of Thutmose II “The Viceroy of Kush” had lost or had not established complete control over the land between the first and second cataract, which during the time of Thutmose II we see was called Kush. I also find evidence of Nehesu assimilation to Egyptian culture which could justify their 18th Dynasty absence from the area between the first and second cataract which during that time was called Kush. But Taharka didn’t call it Kush, he said Ta Pedjet and Ta Nehesy. We learned that captives of war had a chance to assimilate to Egyptian society by reading JJ’s Shirley’s dissertation “The Culture of the Officialdom”. Plenty egyptians wore /nHsy/ as a personal name. Royal people, pharaohs, viziers even The “Viceroys of Kush” called themselves Nehesy, Nehy and Panehesy, even Phinehas which is Hebrew for Panehesy, and I know some remember Phinehas(lit. the Nubian) of the Bible, The Priest of Israel, also Taharka The Kushite helping Hezekiah stop the Assyrians from burning down Judah. These dignitaries (all but Taharka) wore the name /nHsy/ to represent their Nehesy lineage. Most Viceroys of Kush whose name indicate “location” or “culture” or “a people” are adorned with /nHs/ in their personal name.
Names that include /nHs/
“Senebnehas (C): Wife of Sobekhotep III Titles: King’s Wife (hmt-nisw) , United with the White Crown (khnmt-nfr-hdjt), Hereditary Princess (iryt-p`t), Great of Grace (wrt-im3t), Great of Praises (wrt-hzwt), Mistress of the Entire Land (hnwt-t3w-mhw)
Nehesy The Pharoah of the 14th Dynasty
Nehesy, From the time of Hatshepsut (and Tuthmosis III?). Chancellor. Buried in tomb I.6 in the cliffs of the Bubasteion. Discovered by The French Archaeological Mission of the Bubasteion lead by A. Zivie. Nehesy was in charge of the famous expedition to Punt somewhere around year 9 of Hatshepsut’s reign.
Neshi, Chancellor, leader of the expedition to Punt, Chief treasurer. Buried in Saqqara (tomb discovered by Zivie)
Panehesy. The Vizier from the time of Merneptah is known from a chapel at the Speos at Gebel el-Silsila.
Panehesy: Viceroy of Kush at the end of the 20th dynasty. This Viceroy became persona non-grata. Panehsy, the most powerful person in the Thebaid, set up a military coup by his own decision and without royal support. High Priest Amenhotep may not have been killed then, but helped by the king, without gaining back his former position, however. A source of conflict was Amenhotep’s accusation of atrocities by the Nubian soldiers of Panehsy against the Theban population, whereupon Panehsy received the royal command to leave Thebes and to travel south. Nine months after the war had started, Herihor’s army dispelled that of Panehsy, the later enemy of state, to the south. Panehsy, buried in Aniba, can be considered the founder of an independent Nubia.
Panhesy, First servant of the Aten in the house of Aten in Akhet-Aten, Second prophet of the Lord of the Two Lands Neferkheprure-Waenre (Akhenaten), the sealbearer of the King of Lower Egypt. Overseer of the storehouse of the Aten in Akhetaten, Overseer of cattle of the Aten in Akhet-Aten. On one of the ceilings Panehesy mentions receiving gold from the king for doing a great thing for his lady, the king’s daughter. Panehesy’s wife was named Iabka.
Nehi: Viceroy of Kush under Tuthmosis III. Nehy was commanded to see to the renewal of the offerings installed by Sesostris III for the gods Dedun and Khnum at the Temple of Semna. Nehy Vizier of the South under Ramesses II. Mentioned by Kitchen.
Nehy? from the time of Ramesses III (IV?) Possibly a Vizier mentioned on blocks from Thebes. Appears in a scene with Ramesses III, Queen Isis and her mother Queen Hemdjeret? Possibly this is a scene depicting the installation of Isis as God’s Wife, which would date this to the reign of Ramesses IV Queen Ēse of the Twentieth Dynasty and Her Mother
Hesi – Vizier under Teti (maybe Unas?) – figure and name erased from Mastaba.”
(See source #12 & 13)
So now we see the Viceroy of Kush did not use names like “Kashta” or Kushesy” etc. Kashta was a Kushite King but I want all who can read glyphs to go and look at how Kashta was spelled. If you cannot read glyphs please use an online Hieroglyphic dictionary. It seems certain Viceroys used names that indicated themselves being from, or amongst the Nehes people of Nub. /sA nswt/ Sa Nesut did not mean they were of the bloodline of the King. Viseroys were chosen and appointed by the king as good governors of Ta Nehesu(or “Kush” during this time period) southern lands of Gold.
Conclusion
The term Nehesy does indicate south of Egypt. Ta Nehesy is Nubia which was a separate kingdom from Kush and Kemet. Ta Seti was call Ta Pedjet by Taharka(and others). Taharka also called the place, Ta Nehesy. Harsiotef manifested the Crown of Ta Nehesy. Senwoset III establish the borders of Ta Nehesy.
The denial of a Kingdom of Ta Nehesy(Nubia), a kingdom which was based primarily on the resource Nub(gold) of Hat-Nub (lit. Mansion of Gold), is denying one the option of referring to, or mentioning, a true Nubian legacy in Nilotic African culture outside of Kush and Kemet. Bar the flood of the Aswan Dam, the modern day Mahasi Nubians still live in the same area of “Ta Nehesy” as the did thousands of years ago.
Lastly, If one cannot see why Théophile Obenga, Cheikh Anta Diop and Dr.Yosef Ben-Jochannan use the term Nubian to describe Nehesy, then at this point I say too bad for you that you cannot see things the way our African Scholars and forefathers seen it.
Strait up, Yahya Mahasen The #Rapgod,
The thing is The Ancient Egyptians still never used the term ''NUBT'' to refer to the land that is now Sudan. ''NUBT'' was not a separate Kingdom or People from The Ancient Egyptians. it was just a City that is now falsely being called ''NAQADA''. You're correct They used the term ''NEHESY'' to refer to Sudan but the terms ''NEHESY'' and ''NUBT'' are not Synonymous. ''NUBT'' was the oldest Pre-Dynastic City-State in Egypt and ''NEHESY'' Was the collective term they used for The Kushites.
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I also want to point out that The Ancient Nehesy/Kushites were Cattle Herders like The Dinka People of today. Cattle Herding is completely absent in The Nubians of today. This is because The Nubians of today are The Ancient Egyptians and The Dinka people today are The Ancient Kushites.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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I'm not sure how to do that because I'm a new user. I'm not sure how to post pictures either but I will post links so you can view the pictures yourself. but I'm assuming You're asking me to post pictures of the people of Nehesy/Kush? so I will.
use copy or type these and put the URL in between>
[IMG]
[/IMG]
or just hit "full reply form" on the buttons and Image is there
(just please do not post wider than 950-ish, otherwise it messes up the readability of the the thread)
If you want to go back and edit hit the notepad icon in the post at the top of the post field
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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@The Lioness those pyramids were built by The Nehesy/Kushites who were Dinka/Nuer People.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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I mention in my last post to you how to make the images show
also please show a picture of Nubians depicted that was made in the time period corresponding to dynastic Egypt, thanks
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I just Can't seem to get it work. However I do not want to keep flooding the post so I would Appreciate it if you could click the links that I sent. You're asking me to post pictures of the people of Nubt and I showed you pictures from The Nubt(Naqada era). The thing is you are asking me to post pictures of Nubts(Nubians) as if they were a distinct people from The Ancient Egyptians. What You aren't realizing is that THE NUBIANS ARE THE EGYPTIANS!. You keep confusing them with The Nehesy when they are two different People. So by you asking me to post you Photos of Nubians I'd just be showing you pictures of The Ancient Egyptians because that's exactly who they were. Saying that The Nubts(Nubians) were a different people from The Egyptians is like saying The Romans were a different people than The Italians when The Romans were just one group of Italians. Their name is just named after a City in Italy just like The Nubians were named after a City in Egypt which was called Nubt. Since Nubt was the oldest Pre-Dynastic City-State in Egypt it would thus be responsible for The Existence of Egypt as a Nation itself.
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you are linking art from Egypt pre-dynastic period before any Pharaohs
Please show the art depicting Nubians that would fall into a time period when there were Pharoahs in Egypt and numbered dynasties
you have a link there to a google search, that won't show as an image only individual photos
right click directly on top of the photo and pick "copy image address" not "copy image" without "address"
then go to the pre-existing post and click the small pen and pencil notepad icon to edit then put that URL inside [IMG][/IMG]
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I explained in my post who they Were. You keep asking me to post pictures of a supposed distinct Nubian group from The Egyptians when no such group existed. The Nubians/Nubts are The Egyptians themselves because they sprang from Ancient Nubt. when I showed you pictures of the people of Nehesy who are mislabeled Nubians by Egyptologists you kept asking me to post pictures of a distinct people called Nubians during The Pharaonic Period when no such distinct group Existed. By the time Pharaonic Egypt was established The Egyptians were one people so all Pharaonic Egyptians would be Ethnically the same as those Ancient Pre-Dynastic People of Nubt. There is no Ethnic difference between Pre-Dynastic and Pharaonic Egyptians whatsoever.
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Thanks. This is an important topic because it proves todays Nubians of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan are in fact The Ancient Egyptians in Their Purest form While groups like The Copts,Fellahin ETC are Mixed Hybrid groups who don't truly represent The Ancient Egyptians Though they are partially related to them. The Nubians are the closest link to Ancient Egypt/Kemet.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: [QB] Thanks. This is an important topic because it proves todays Nubians of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan are in fact The Ancient Egyptians in Their Purest form
what do you mean? how is it proven rather than a theory?
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It is not a Theory because they still inhabit Egypt and are recognized as an Indigenous Population. They are Black. They still carry the name of Egypt's most Ancient City. What more Evidence do you need?
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: It is not a Theory because they still inhabit Egypt and are recognized as an Indigenous Population. They are Black. They still carry the name of Egypt's most Ancient City. What more Evidence do you need?
what is Ta Nehesi ? (nHsy )
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Ta Nehesi(Nhsy) was the collective term the Ancient Egyptians used to describe the various kingdoms of Sudan(Kush) such as Wawat, Irtjet, Yam ETC. Nehesi can also be spelled as Nahasi and The Ancient Egyptians spelled it as ''NHSYW'' or ''NHS''. This name still survives amongst The Nuer people today who call themselves and their Language ''NATH'' or ''NAATH''.
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The main modern Nubian groups from north to south are the Kenzi, Faadicha (Halfawi), Sukkot, Ja'alin, Shaigiya, Mahas and Danagla.
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Yes but those Nubian groups are not Descendants of The Ancient Nehesi. The Dinka/Nuer are. look at Ancient Egyptian and Greek Depictions of The Ancient Nehesi/Kushites and you will see that the grooming practices of The Ancient Kushites/Nehesi and Dinka/Nuer are identical. Herodotus described them as the tallest people in the world which is more proof that he was speaking about The Dinka. The Egyptians use of ''NHS'' and ''KSH'' are just Egyptian pronunciations of the Dinka word for people which is ''KOCH'' or the original name of the Nuer People which is ''NATH''. Those Nubian groups you mentioned are Migrants from Egypt. We know this because The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt and are still recognized as an Indigenous Egyptian Population by The Arab Republic. You can't be Indigenous to Egypt and Sudan at the same time. they are two different Lands. This is why The Greeks didn't begin using the term Nubia until 500AD because by that time Kush/Nehesy had long been gone and The Nubt refugees from Egypt had become the dominant population of Northern Sudan. It's important to note that The Greeks didn't begin using the term Nubia for the people in Northern Sudan until AFTER the fall of Kush. this is because The Kushites left Northern Sudan and migrated further into South Sudan and became The Dinka/Nuer people we know today. That's why The Greeks gave Northern Sudan a new name because The Nubians(Egyptians) became the predominant population.
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^ Some of your arguments dont make sense. 1 - You CAN be indigenous to two different places. You are concentrating on the modern Borders. Any population can be indigenous to an area only to be later split by a political or nation/state border. See the Somali in Ethiopia....or the Yoruba in Togo and Benin. OR nearly ALL the ethnic conflict in Africa revolving around modern borders created by Europeans.
2 - As understand it Nehesi [Nhsj(w)] was a term used to apply to different groups south of Egypt NOT ALL of which were Nilo-Saharan speakers or Nilotic peoples. For example this term was used to describe the people of Punt and Medjay, which were likely Cushitic speakers.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Ok I can agree with you about Modern borders but the point I'm making is that The Nubians of today are not the people of Ancient Nehesi but The Ancient Egyptians themselves. There is absolutely ZERO Evidence that The Ancient Egyptians ever used the term ''NUBT'' to refer to Those groups living south of Egypt. They used the term ''NEHESI'' instead. The terms ''NUBT'' and ''NEHESI'' ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS!. Nubt was the original name of Naqada, a CITY WITHIN THE BORDERS OF EGYPT NOT LAND SOUTH OF EGYPT!. You also mention The Medjay but if you scroll up you will see in my earlier posts I mention that The Medjay are the Beja people today who still live south of Egypt in the Eastern Desert exactly where The Medjay lived. Punt was not located where modern Sudan is but even further south in to Southern Somalia and Kenya. The Egyptians called it ''PWANET''. The name still survives in The Swahilli Language as ''PWANI'' meaning Coast. So even if The Ancient Egyptians used The term ''NEHESI'' as a collective term for all the nations south of Egypt it still doesn't negate the fact that the term Nubia(Nubt) never referred to land South of Egypt.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: todays Nubians of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan are in fact The Ancient Egyptians in Their Purest form... THE NUBIANS ARE THE EGYPTIANS!. You keep confusing them with The Nehesy when they are two different People.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The main modern Nubian groups from north to south are the Kenzi, Faadicha (Halfawi), Sukkot, Ja'alin, Shaigiya, Mahas and Danagla.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Yes but those Nubian groups are not Descendants of The Ancient Nehesi. The Dinka/Nuer are.
.
.
I didn't say they were the Nehesi.
You said todays Nubians of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan are in fact The Ancient Egyptians in Their Purest form so I then listed Nubian groups who according to you are descendants of the ancient Egyptians
So please clarify
The Nubian groups of today in Sudan are the Kenzi, Faadicha (Halfawi), Sukkot, Ja'alin, Shaigiya, Mahas and Danagla.
So do you agree that some of these names of today's Nubians in today's Sudan are descendants of the Egyptians?
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My understanding is that modern Nubians are descended from groups like the Nobatae who migrated into the Nile Valley from the west during the 4th century AD, when the kingdom of Kush was in its waning days. These Nubians would have absorbed the native Kushites, of course, but they would have started out as a separate collection of ethnic groups.
That said, modern Nubian languages are classified as Nilo-Saharan rather than Afroasiatic like ancient Egyptian, so I would dispute the OP's claim modern Nubians primarily represent a migration of Egyptians into the Sudan. More likely in my opinion, any physical resemblance between modern Nubians and ancient Egyptians is due to their shared Northeast African heritage, not because the latter is descended from the former.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: todays Nubians of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan are in fact The Ancient Egyptians in Their Purest form... THE NUBIANS ARE THE EGYPTIANS!. You keep confusing them with The Nehesy when they are two different People.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The main modern Nubian groups from north to south are the Kenzi, Faadicha (Halfawi), Sukkot, Ja'alin, Shaigiya, Mahas and Danagla.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Yes but those Nubian groups are not Descendants of The Ancient Nehesi. The Dinka/Nuer are.
.
.
I didn't say they were the Nehesi.
You said todays Nubians of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan are in fact The Ancient Egyptians in Their Purest form so I then listed Nubian groups who according to you are descendants of the ancient Egyptians
So please clarify
The Nubian groups of today in Sudan are the Kenzi, Faadicha (Halfawi), Sukkot, Ja'alin, Shaigiya, Mahas and Danagla.
So do you agree that some of these names of today's Nubians in today's Sudan are descendants of the Egyptians?
Yes because they are all apart of the larger Nubian family though they may be different groups.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: todays Nubians of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan are in fact The Ancient Egyptians in Their Purest form... THE NUBIANS ARE THE EGYPTIANS!. You keep confusing them with The Nehesy when they are two different People.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The main modern Nubian groups from north to south are the Kenzi, Faadicha (Halfawi), Sukkot, Ja'alin, Shaigiya, Mahas and Danagla.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Yes but those Nubian groups are not Descendants of The Ancient Nehesi. The Dinka/Nuer are.
.
.
I didn't say they were the Nehesi.
You said todays Nubians of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan are in fact The Ancient Egyptians in Their Purest form so I then listed Nubian groups who according to you are descendants of the ancient Egyptians
So please clarify
The Nubian groups of today in Sudan are the Kenzi, Faadicha (Halfawi), Sukkot, Ja'alin, Shaigiya, Mahas and Danagla.
So do you agree that some of these names of today's Nubians in today's Sudan are descendants of the Egyptians?
Yes because they are all apart of the larger Nubian family though they may be different groups.
what do you mean "part of the larger Nubian family" ? What other groups apart from those I listed are Nubian ?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by One Third African: My understanding is that modern Nubians are descended from groups like the Nobatae who migrated into the Nile Valley from the west during the 4th century AD, when the kingdom of Kush was in its waning days. These Nubians would have absorbed the native Kushites, of course, but they would have started out as a separate collection of ethnic groups.
That said, modern Nubian languages are classified as Nilo-Saharan rather than Afroasiatic like ancient Egyptian, so I would dispute the OP's claim modern Nubians primarily represent a migration of Egyptians into the Sudan. More likely in my opinion, any physical resemblance between modern Nubians and ancient Egyptians is due to their shared Northeast African heritage, not because the latter is descended from the former.
The Nobatae that you speak of are The Nubians in Southern Egypt. Are you forgetting that half of The Nubian population still lives in Egypt?. If they aren't The Ancient Egyptians according to you then who are they? and why are they still in Egypt? and why are they still recognized as an Indigenous Population?. Since we both agree that they Migrated to Sudan and a Chunk of them still live in Egypt then where else could they possibly have came from? why are they only found in Egypt and Sudan and not anywhere else?. You say they came from West of Sudan which would be Libya, Chad. Yet there are no Nubians living in Libya or Chad. The only place you will find Nubians outside of Sudan is Egypt because that's exactly where they as an ethnic group originated from. Also just because they speak a Nilo-Saharan Language today doesn't disqualify them from being Ancient Egyptians. Albert Churchward classified The Egyptian Language as Nilo-Saharan so we are not even fully sure whether or not The AE language was Afro-Asiatic.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: todays Nubians of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan are in fact The Ancient Egyptians in Their Purest form... THE NUBIANS ARE THE EGYPTIANS!. You keep confusing them with The Nehesy when they are two different People.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The main modern Nubian groups from north to south are the Kenzi, Faadicha (Halfawi), Sukkot, Ja'alin, Shaigiya, Mahas and Danagla.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Yes but those Nubian groups are not Descendants of The Ancient Nehesi. The Dinka/Nuer are.
.
.
I didn't say they were the Nehesi.
You said todays Nubians of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan are in fact The Ancient Egyptians in Their Purest form so I then listed Nubian groups who according to you are descendants of the ancient Egyptians
So please clarify
The Nubian groups of today in Sudan are the Kenzi, Faadicha (Halfawi), Sukkot, Ja'alin, Shaigiya, Mahas and Danagla.
So do you agree that some of these names of today's Nubians in today's Sudan are descendants of the Egyptians?
Yes because they are all apart of the larger Nubian family though they may be different groups.
what do you mean "part of the larger Nubian family" ? What other groups apart from those I listed are Nubian ?
I'm saying those groups are collectively called Nubian so they are the same. You are making it seem as if they are unrelated groups when they are all classified as Nubian.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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I already ruled out The Beja from being The Ancient Egyptians because they are a Nomadic People and That wasn't a Characteristic of The Ancient Egyptians. All Evidence points to The Beja being The Medjay. The Afar are also ruled out because they are also a Nomadic People. What I don't understand is how you guys claim that Ancient Egypt was Black yet you don't know which particular group of Black Africans are Their descendants?. We have a group of Blacks still living in Egypt till this very day who still carry the name of the most Ancient Pre-Dynastic City-State known as ''NUBT'' or ''NWB'' but for some reason you doubt it?
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Ok I can agree with you about Modern borders but the point I'm making is that The Nubians of today are not the people of Ancient Nehesi but The Ancient Egyptians themselves. There is absolutely ZERO Evidence that The Ancient Egyptians ever used the term ''NUBT'' to refer to Those groups living south of Egypt. They used the term ''NEHESI'' instead. The terms ''NUBT'' and ''NEHESI'' ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS!. Nubt was the original name of Naqada, a CITY WITHIN THE BORDERS OF EGYPT NOT LAND SOUTH OF EGYPT!. You also mention The Medjay but if you scroll up you will see in my earlier posts I mention that The Medjay are the Beja people today who still live south of Egypt in the Eastern Desert exactly where The Medjay lived. Punt was not located where modern Sudan is but even further south in to Southern Somalia and Kenya. The Egyptians called it ''PWANET''. The name still survives in The Swahilli Language as ''PWANI'' meaning Coast. So even if The Ancient Egyptians used The term ''NEHESI'' as a collective term for all the nations south of Egypt it still doesn't negate the fact that the term Nubia(Nubt) never referred to land South of Egypt.
The "Nubian" people of the "Nubian" Ethnic group today are KNOWN recent migrants to the Nile Valley from somewhere west of the Nile around Darfur. What you are saying about the term Nubian being based on Nubt is information that Could have been found here -10 and 15 years ago. Its nothing new.
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