posted
This new study suggests that ancient Saharans may have introduced a "Eurasian" Lactase persistence allele to Eurasia:
"Archeological evidence shows that first nomadic pastoralists came to the African Sahel from northeastern Sahara, where milking is reported by ~7.5 ka. A second wave of pastoralists arrived with the expansion of Arabic tribes in 7th–14th century CE. All Sahelian pastoralists depend on milk production but genetic diversity underlying their lactase persistence (LP) is poorly understood.
Materials and methods We investigated SNP variants associated with LP in 1,241 individuals from 29 mostly pastoralist populations in the Sahel. Then, we analyzed six SNPs in the neighboring fragment (419 kb) in the Fulani and Tuareg with the −13910*T mutation, reconstructed haplotypes, and calculated expansion age and growth rate of this variant.
Results Our results reveal a geographic localization of two different LP variants in the Sahel: −13910*T west of Lake Chad (Fulani and Tuareg pastoralists) and −13915*G east of there (mostly Arabic‐speaking pastoralists). We show that −13910*T has a more diversified haplotype background among the Fulani than among the Tuareg and that the age estimate for expansion of this variant among the Fulani (~8.5 ka) corresponds to introduction of cattle to the area.
Conclusions This is the first study showing that the “Eurasian” LP allele −13910*T is widespread both in northern Europe and in the Sahel; however, it is limited to pastoralists in the Sahel. Since the Fulani haplotype with −13910*T is shared with contemporary Eurasians, its origin could be in a region encompassing the Near East and northeastern Africa in a population ancestral to both Saharan pastoralists and European farmers."
Can anyone access this? I will go use my university's wifi services to see if its possible later, but in the meantime if anyone else can access it, we would appreciate it. Looking at you xyyman if you have not been banned.
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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posted
10 years would be too quick for them. When did they discover Basal Eurasian, and how close are they to admitting that it may have an African origin? The study actually suggests that a European lactase persistence allele may have originated from Western Africa:
"Because the −13910*T haplotype associated with LP is shared between the Fulani from Ziniaré, Burkina Faso, and Europeans (Vicente et al., 2019) and since we found an old age of expansion for this mutation within the African population of the Fulani (dataset covering much larger area of the Sahel), it is possible that. . .13910*T may have originated in a food-producing population that lived in the Near East, including northeastern Africa, as suggested by Myles et al. (2005)."
Was there not a study that found an African haplogroup in ancient Spain/Portugal and linked it to the spread of cattle?
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Ten years from now they'll finally admit it originated with African Humid Period proto-Fulani of the central Sahara.
This. I swore you had this figured out like 15 years ago when Fulani had the oldest estimates of the mutations in ALL populations.
Here is anther paper having African specific LP mutation in Southern Europeans.
quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: This new study suggests that ancient Saharans may have introduced a "Eurasian" Lactase persistence allele to Eurasia:
"Archeological evidence shows that first nomadic pastoralists came to the African Sahel from northeastern Sahara, where milking is reported by ~7.5 ka. A second wave of pastoralists arrived with the expansion of Arabic tribes in 7th–14th century CE. All Sahelian pastoralists depend on milk production but genetic diversity underlying their lactase persistence (LP) is poorly understood.
Materials and methods We investigated SNP variants associated with LP in 1,241 individuals from 29 mostly pastoralist populations in the Sahel. Then, we analyzed six SNPs in the neighboring fragment (419 kb) in the Fulani and Tuareg with the −13910*T mutation, reconstructed haplotypes, and calculated expansion age and growth rate of this variant.
Results Our results reveal a geographic localization of two different LP variants in the Sahel: −13910*T west of Lake Chad (Fulani and Tuareg pastoralists) and −13915*G east of there (mostly Arabic‐speaking pastoralists). We show that −13910*T has a more diversified haplotype background among the Fulani than among the Tuareg and that the age estimate for expansion of this variant among the Fulani (~8.5 ka) corresponds to introduction of cattle to the area.
Conclusions This is the first study showing that the “Eurasian” LP allele −13910*T is widespread both in northern Europe and in the Sahel; however, it is limited to pastoralists in the Sahel. Since the Fulani haplotype with −13910*T is shared with contemporary Eurasians, its origin could be in a region encompassing the Near East and northeastern Africa in a population ancestral to both Saharan pastoralists and European farmers."
Can anyone access this? I will go use my university's wifi services to see if its possible later, but in the meantime if anyone else can access it, we would appreciate it. Looking at you xyyman if you have not been banned.
I think this study is a replication of one done years ago since I recall a similar paper that was discussed in this forum.
It's not surprising though it is disappointing to see these experts assume that this allele is of "Eurasian" extraction despite the Fula nomads having more a less a genomic profile that is entirely African. Lactase persistence is definitely associated with pastoralism so the presumption then is that pastoralism was introduced to Africa rather than developed indigenously.
Recall the 2018 paper by Brass Early North African Cattle Domestication and Its Ecological Setting: A Reassessment. In it they conclude also presumably that domesticated cattle was introduced from Asia due to the simple fact that the cattle tested in Nabta Playa were wild aurochs, but the Sahara is a vast area and the earliest evidence of domesticated cattle in North Africa come not from Egypt but the central Sahara. What's more is despite the introgression/admixture of Eurasian breeds into African ones, domesticated African cattle possess anatomical features that are distinct to them such as horn shape and breadth and saddle-back which can be seen in Saharan rock paintings. This has lead some scholars to suggest not only an independent African domestication event but a subspecies or supra-breed called Bos. africanus.
quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: This new study suggests that ancient Saharans may have introduced a "Eurasian" Lactase persistence allele to Eurasia:
"Archeological evidence shows that first nomadic pastoralists came to the African Sahel from northeastern Sahara, where milking is reported by ~7.5 ka. A second wave of pastoralists arrived with the expansion of Arabic tribes in 7th–14th century CE. All Sahelian pastoralists depend on milk production but genetic diversity underlying their lactase persistence (LP) is poorly understood.
Materials and methods We investigated SNP variants associated with LP in 1,241 individuals from 29 mostly pastoralist populations in the Sahel. Then, we analyzed six SNPs in the neighboring fragment (419 kb) in the Fulani and Tuareg with the −13910*T mutation, reconstructed haplotypes, and calculated expansion age and growth rate of this variant.
Results Our results reveal a geographic localization of two different LP variants in the Sahel: −13910*T west of Lake Chad (Fulani and Tuareg pastoralists) and −13915*G east of there (mostly Arabic‐speaking pastoralists). We show that −13910*T has a more diversified haplotype background among the Fulani than among the Tuareg and that the age estimate for expansion of this variant among the Fulani (~8.5 ka) corresponds to introduction of cattle to the area.
Conclusions This is the first study showing that the “Eurasian” LP allele −13910*T is widespread both in northern Europe and in the Sahel; however, it is limited to pastoralists in the Sahel. Since the Fulani haplotype with −13910*T is shared with contemporary Eurasians, its origin could be in a region encompassing the Near East and northeastern Africa in a population ancestral to both Saharan pastoralists and European farmers."
Can anyone access this? I will go use my university's wifi services to see if its possible later, but in the meantime if anyone else can access it, we would appreciate it. Looking at you xyyman if you have not been banned.
I think this study is a replication of one done years ago since I recall a similar paper that was discussed in this forum.
It's not surprising though it is disappointing to see these experts assume that this allele is of "Eurasian" extraction despite the Fula nomads having more a less a genomic profile that is entirely African. Lactase persistence is definitely associated with pastoralism so the presumption then is that pastoralism was introduced to Africa rather than developed indigenously.
Recall the 2018 paper by Brass Early North African Cattle Domestication and Its Ecological Setting: A Reassessment. In it they conclude also presumably that domesticated cattle was introduced from Asia due to the simple fact that the cattle tested in Nabta Playa were wild aurochs, but the Sahara is a vast area and the earliest evidence of domesticated cattle in North Africa come not from Egypt but the central Sahara. What's more is despite the introgression/admixture of Eurasian breeds into African ones, domesticated African cattle possess anatomical features that are distinct to them such as horn shape and breadth and saddle-back which can be seen in Saharan rock paintings. This has lead some scholars to suggest not only an independent African domestication event but a subspecies or supra-breed called Bos. africanus.
When it comes to Africa, the only chance there is of the typical Euro scientists giving any credit to Africa, especially in regard to innovations such as pastoralism, agriculture, and iron invention, is evidence of said innovation being too abundant and too obvious to ignore. Even then, it might not be enough (take iron for example). I believe Africa has the highest diversity for lactase persistence alleles. This would mean according to the center of origin hypothesis that Africa is likely the origin of the trait. Insecure Western scientists recognize the fact only to brush it away as insignificant. Here is what one study had to say after recognizing that Africa was the region or center of greatest diversity for specific LP alleles: Liebert et al.
"We observe clear geographic distribution differences for each of the derived enhancer region alleles, even though some of them co-occur in East Africa. Although it might be tempting to speculate that the regions of highest frequency are the regions where the alleles originated, simulation modelling (Edmonds et al. 2004; Itan et al. 2009; Klopfstein et al. 2006) has shown that demographic and selection processes can displace spatial allele frequency distributions away from their origin location ."
Sometimes I despair about how even the most elite and highly educated, White scientists could allow racial biases to creep into their work in this way. The dude referenced simulation modelling to dismiss one of the cornerstones of evolutionary biology to avoid the implications of a possible African origin for LP alleles.
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^ I've always suspected that LP alleles were most diverse in Africa, though I don't recall an analyses of all global populations. Let's not forget the yak pastoralists of Tibet, the horse and oxen pastoralists of Mongolia, the reindeer pastoralists of Siberia, and a possible 5th center of Bos domestication in northeast Asia in the Manchu-Korean region.
Getting back to Africa, what about the cattle pastoralists of Southern Africa?? You don't hear much about them.
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^Because they're more recent and somewhat derivative; relying on the implication of western Saharan pastoralism or early east African pastoralism. Both of which are controversial.
by the way. I feel like folk here on ES should be more inquisitive to stay ahead of game. With all that's been put at our feets what can we make of it?
Basically I'm suggesting we stop saying "this is African" and start asking questions such as "what does this mean for African population history". One question that I haven't straight up asked yet, and should have is... "what were the fulani 8kya?"
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^ To answer your last question there was no "Fulani" ethnicity 8,000 years ago. Though judging by depictions of facial features and hairstyles, their ancestors may very well have lived in the Central Saharan area.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ To answer your last question there was no "Fulani" ethnicity 8,000 years ago. Though judging by depictions of facial features and hairstyles, their ancestors may very well have lived in the Central Saharan area.
I figured as much. But can we take it a step further? Which other regions might those ancient Saharan move on to populate? (Northern Africa? GGP? North east Africa?) What might they have looked like autosomally? (ANA, Ancient west African?) Which uniparental haplogroups would you attribute this group (E-M2 L3??) Did they herd and drink milk from biologically wild cattle prior to interbreeding them with docile Near eastern ones?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Lookit the "Fula I" exemplar K in your STRUCTURE-like run results.
Hal Pulaaren, like other Atlantic speakers are evident in the early/mid Holocene Central Saharans who moved up from Cameroon and dispersed in all directions from there by my judgement of D'Atanasio's article (no follow up releases).
Her article, the massive amount of tabled data, is too vital not to be taken to the next stage.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ To answer your last question there was no "Fulani" ethnicity 8,000 years ago. Though judging by depictions of facial features and hairstyles, their ancestors may very well have lived in the Central Saharan area.
I figured as much. But can we take it a step further? Which other regions might those ancient Saharan move on to populate? (Northern Africa? GGP? North east Africa?) What might they have looked like autosomally? (ANA, Ancient west African?) Which uniparental haplogroups would you attribute this group (E-M2 L3??) Did they herd and drink milk from biologically wild cattle prior to interbreeding them with docile Near eastern ones?
Some time ago there was a long argument about Fulani and their Berber influences. After a lot of back and forth and other related topics I came to a few personal conclusions, this was all prior to aDNA from NW AFrica.
- Fulani dont have ancient ancestry directly from "Berber Speakers". Their interaction with Saharans or ancestry typically described as North West African predates Berber Speakers linguistically and or the M81 Founder Effect. Typically Fulani have hardly any E-M81, its rare to non existent in most Fulani samples. Other Eurasian mtdna lineages generally found in Berbers are also low.
- North West African ancestry in Fulani could have come along with E-M33, V68 or Even E-M2....and i got a lot of pushback from the E-M2. V68 lineages in the Central Sahara found among saharans and sahelians could predate those in the Nile Valley. The Nile Valley may not the Epicenter of distribution but rather the mid point: Sahara > Nile Valley > Nile Basin\Horn of Africa > Rift. And Some V68 avoided the HOA when moving below the sahara.
-The NWA like ancestors of Fulani and NEA Ancestors of Horners are STILL largely UNIDENTIFIED. When genetic studies link them with Early European Farmers and especially "Sardinians" it actually what we should expect because they are essentially describing the MOST BASAL population sitting at the Eurasian Cline. Sardinians to Eurasia what Khoisan are to Sub Saharan Africa.
Geographic Eurasia starts in the Levant, but Genetic Eurasia starts at Sardianians as some geographic Eurasian population are on the African side of the cline. They are the real "Basal Eurasian" on paper if one existed.
-The African Y-dna with Euraisna Mtdna is NOT a recent phenomenon, and there is no reason it couldnt exist with E-M2.
There was more, it was years ago and the board is defunct. I would like to see more DNA from Sahelians and Saharans especially Oasis dwellers and Haratin. Populations from Mali and ancient DNA from the region. I have a hunch that Haraitin could be in the West what Hadza are in the East.
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Basically I'm suggesting we stop saying "this is African" and start asking questions such as "what does this mean for African population history". One question that I haven't straight up asked yet, and should have is... "what were the fulani 8kya?"
I am not that knowledgeable about the Fulani specifically. But if I had to guess, they would be a fundamentally West African, Niger-Congo-speaking population that picked up pastoralism and some genetic admixture from a Saharan population sometime during the last African Humid Period. It'd be like how the Maasai are Nilotes with some Northeast African admixture.
As for the OP study, it would be amusingly ironic if the LP allele that is ubiquitous in northern Europe as well as the Fulani ultimately originated in Northeastern Africa like a couple of people have suggested. But what population movements from Africa would have brought that allele so deep into Eurasia within the last 8,000 years? It couldn't have been the same population movement that brought North African ancestry to the Natufians >10 kya since they weren't pastoralists AFAIK. Maybe it has something to do with Proto-Semitic speakers moving into the Middle East ~5 kya? At least that's the only other wave of African migration into Eurasia after 10 kya that I can think of.
posted
Conclusions This is the first study showing that the “Eurasian” LP allele −13910*T is widespread both in northern Europe and in the Sahel; however, it is limited to pastoralists in the Sahel. Since the Fulani haplotype with −13910*T is shared with contemporary Eurasians, its origin could be in a region encompassing the Near East and northeastern Africa in a population ancestral to both Saharan pastoralists and European farmers."
Although the ancestors of European farmers came from the 'Near East', the coalescent dating of the LP haplotype post-dates the arrival of the farming in Europe or 'Basal Eurasian', which suggests another migration event.
quote:Originally posted by One Third African:
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Basically I'm suggesting we stop saying "this is African" and start asking questions such as "what does this mean for African population history". One question that I haven't straight up asked yet, and should have is... "what were the fulani 8kya?"
I am not that knowledgeable about the Fulani specifically. But if I had to guess, they would be a fundamentally West African, Niger-Congo-speaking population that picked up pastoralism and some genetic admixture from a Saharan population sometime during the last African Humid Period. It'd be like how the Maasai are Nilotes with some Northeast African admixture.
As for the OP study, it would be amusingly ironic if the LP allele that is ubiquitous in northern Europe as well as the Fulani ultimately originated in Northeastern Africa like a couple of people have suggested. But what population movements from Africa would have brought that allele so deep into Eurasia within the last 8,000 years? It couldn't have been the same population movement that brought North African ancestry to the Natufians >10 kya since they weren't pastoralists AFAIK. Maybe it has something to do with Proto-Semitic speakers moving into the Middle East ~5 kya? At least that's the only other wave of African migration into Eurasia after 10 kya that I can think of.
Or it could have been a whole other migration that didn't have anything to do with the 'Near East' or Southwest Asia.
It reminds me of the old Arnaiz-Villena HLA study.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Or it could have been a whole other migration that didn't have anything to do with the 'Near East' or Southwest Asia.
Are you suggesting that African pastoralists went across the Mediterranean (or the Strait of Gibraltar) straight to Europe?
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He certainly would not be the first to suggest African migration directly to Western Europe: A Western Route . . .
"Being at the western fringe of Europe, Iberia had a peculiar prehistory and a complex pattern of Neolithization. A few studies, all based on modern populations, reported the presence of DNA of likely African origin in this region, generally concluding it was the result of recent gene flow, probably during the Islamic period. Here, we provide evidence of much older gene flow from Africa to Iberia by sequencing whole genomes from four human remains from northern Portugal and southern Spain dated around 4000 years BP (from the Middle Neolithic to the Bronze Age). We found one of them to carry an unequivocal sub-Saharan mitogenome of most probably West or West-Central African origin, to our knowledge never reported before in prehistoric remains outside Africa. Our analyses of ancient nuclear genomes show small but significant levels of sub-Saharan African affinity in several ancient Iberian samples, which indicates that what we detected was not an occasional individual phenomenon, but an admixture event recognizable at the population level. We interpret this result as evidence of an early migration process from Africa into the Iberian Peninsula through a western route, possibly across the Strait of Gibraltar."
How this relates to lactase persistence alleles in North Western Europe, I have no idea. For southern Europe at least, I think it has been shown that the breed of cattle there is related to African cattle.
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posted
Here is one study which explains that West African cattle genetic influence is typical for Mediterranean cattle:
" Worldwide Patterns of Ancestry, Divergence, and Admixture in Domesticated Cattle African taurine genetic background is commonly observed among European Mediterranean breeds. The absence of indicine introgression within most European taurine breeds, but presence within three Italian breeds is consistent with at least two separate migration waves of cattle to Europe, one from the Middle East which captured taurines in which indicine introgression had already occurred and the second from western Africa into Spain with no indicine introgression. This second group seems to have radiated from Spain into the Mediterranean resulting in a cline of African taurine introgression into European taurines."
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^ Mansamusa took the very words right out my mind before I could write it! But yeah, either it was an expansion across Gibraltar into Iberia OR a couple of other routes that did not involve West Asia..
Namely, an expansion into the Balkans from Cyrenaica Libya OR if we are focusing on the haplotype possessed by the Fulani a possible expansion into the Italian Peninsula from Tunisia via the Strait of Sicily and Sicily.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Conclusions This is the first study showing that the “Eurasian” LP allele −13910*T is widespread both in northern Europe and in the Sahel; however, it is limited to pastoralists in the Sahel. Since the Fulani haplotype with −13910*T is shared with contemporary Eurasians, its origin could be in a region encompassing the Near East and northeastern Africa in a population ancestral to both Saharan pastoralists and European farmers."
Although the ancestors of European farmers came from the 'Near East', the coalescent dating of the LP haplotype post-dates the arrival of the farming in Europe or 'Basal Eurasian', which suggests another migration event.
quote:Originally posted by One Third African:
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Basically I'm suggesting we stop saying "this is African" and start asking questions such as "what does this mean for African population history". One question that I haven't straight up asked yet, and should have is... "what were the fulani 8kya?"
I am not that knowledgeable about the Fulani specifically. But if I had to guess, they would be a fundamentally West African, Niger-Congo-speaking population that picked up pastoralism and some genetic admixture from a Saharan population sometime during the last African Humid Period. It'd be like how the Maasai are Nilotes with some Northeast African admixture.
As for the OP study, it would be amusingly ironic if the LP allele that is ubiquitous in northern Europe as well as the Fulani ultimately originated in Northeastern Africa like a couple of people have suggested. But what population movements from Africa would have brought that allele so deep into Eurasia within the last 8,000 years? It couldn't have been the same population movement that brought North African ancestry to the Natufians >10 kya since they weren't pastoralists AFAIK. Maybe it has something to do with Proto-Semitic speakers moving into the Middle East ~5 kya? At least that's the only other wave of African migration into Eurasia after 10 kya that I can think of.
Or it could have been a whole other migration that didn't have anything to do with the 'Near East' or Southwest Asia.
It reminds me of the old Arnaiz-Villena HLA study.
the Greek shows up for Fulani genetic tests, but reading the study I see they focused on the Balkans/Slavic
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
^ Ironically that very circled area of Italy/Greece corresponds with locality of E1b1b-V13.
Although Fulani predominantly carry E1b1a, a minority carry E1b1b as well.
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^ I really don't have much time on my hands as of late, but since you suggested this, might you gather the frequency of which LP genes are carried by E-M13 carriers in southern Europe. We could be lumping two different migratory events via E-M13.
@One Third African And yes indeed African pastoralists could have crossed the Mediterranean around that time. It explains the time V88 could have touched down in Northern africa as well as when A-m13, E-M2*, E-EV68 and L2, L3 could have gotten into places like Iberia and Sardinia. The question is why didn't it leave an autosomal footprint. Like in the example of COV20126.
...
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Ten years from now they'll finally admit it originated with African Humid Period proto-Fulani of the central Sahara.
one day indeed
The framing of calling Africans that are clearly, a hundred percent African, "Eurasian" admixture because of some "Eurasian" genome or genetic marker that most likely isn't "Eurasian" at all. But African in origin and not because of some back-migration. That has not left a trace of evidence besides allele but somehow it has to be foreign...
Makes no sense
-------------------- "Nothing hurts a racist more than the absolute truth and a punch to the face" Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020
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^ But that's the double-standard. If a haplotype arose in Europe like E-V13 even though it descends from an African ancestor, they are quick to label it as European or Eurasian. But when people do the converse like labeling mt hapotype U6 African, they are quick to say that U6 descends from a Eurasian ancestor.
It's the genetic equivalent of what they were doing with skeletal remains. Skeletal features are "negroid" until they are found outside of Africa in neighboring areas like Southwest Asia then they are Eurasians or Caucasoids with "negroid" tendencies, but if "Caucasoid" skeletal features are found in sub-Saharan areas like Kenya and Tanzania they are automatically Eurasian or Caucasoid.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I really don't have much time on my hands as of late, but since you suggested this, might you gather the frequency of which LP genes are carried by E-M13 carriers in southern Europe. We could be lumping two different migratory events via E-M13.
I don't have much time myself either, but I will try and see what I can find. The only autosomal studies I'm aware of are those of HLA, HBS (sickle cell), Thalassemia, and LP.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ But that's the double-standard. If a haplotype arose in Europe like E-V13 even though it descends from an African ancestor, they are quick to label it as European or Eurasian. But when people do the converse like labeling mt hapotype U6 African, they are quick to say that U6 descends from a Eurasian ancestor.
It's the genetic equivalent of what they were doing with skeletal remains. Skeletal features are "negroid" until they are found outside of Africa in neighboring areas like Southwest Asia then they are Eurasians or Caucasoids with "negroid" tendencies, but if "Caucasoid" skeletal features are found in sub-Saharan areas like Kenya and Tanzania they are automatically Eurasian or Caucasoid.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I really don't have much time on my hands as of late, but since you suggested this, might you gather the frequency of which LP genes are carried by E-M13 carriers in southern Europe. We could be lumping two different migratory events via E-M13.
I don't have much time myself either, but I will try and see what I can find. The only autosomal studies I'm aware of are those of HLA, HBS (sickle cell), Thalassemia, and LP.
The games they play is pretty f'd up.
They've been playing this game for so long, that you can't chalk it up to ignorance or scientific error, simply but borderline racial malice. Purposely creating these fallacies and labels that have no real consistency other than making sure to push European and Caucasoid's narratives, inside and outside Africa. Knowing these groups weren't static, knowing, that they are more likely the origin. Somehow all the news and studies on haplotype diversity Africa goes out the window if they can't put a version of themselves into the picture.
It's like you said; haplotype's, just like skeletal remains (Phenotypes, Noses, Cranial ranges) is just another space where they can muddy the field. For the next ten to twenty years before they "discover" and admit the truth or discard it for another game. All of this just to claim that African's could never naturally have these haplotypes (Skeletal features), rather its through mutation or an interaction with another African group that carries a unique marker. Especially, when we know that certain Africa populations can indeed develop or carry unique clades. But of course the first thing that happens is someone goes out of Africa to find a possible match that is a "Eurasian" or "Semitic" type and because one or two sub-clade is found in European or Arab populations.
That trumps an African origin. Despite the rush to look elsewhere or to find a study, from a different era that confirms their basis. All based off one or two sub-clades. But they'll downplay or ignore other clade findings that are similar that show up in, previously further away African populations, from the same branch.
But that has to be due to dilution or other unknown factors.
They say the above I highlighted. But still go on to continue with particular conclusions.
How can they possibly know that these types, clades, or markers are non-African? When they admit that they have great difficulty even processing the diverse "Sub-Saharan" populations...they barely even know who lived in the Green Sahara, let alone the number or genetic make up.
-------------------- "Nothing hurts a racist more than the absolute truth and a punch to the face" Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: The question is why didn't it leave an autosomal footprint. Like in the example of COV20126.
...
Huh? I'm confused. It sounds like you are asking a question you already answered.
I've seen ancestry test where Ashkenazi are more Broadly European than Ashkenazi. Yet more than 1% of them have L2 and they have quite a bit of E. Didn't you already answer this question with way Europeans lost Neanderthal ancestry markers without mixing with 'Africans'?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Was just on the Berber Encyclopedia today and read an old Rock Art entry that laid out proto-Fulani as the earlier (beef) pastoralist while proto-African whites pastured sheeps and goats (later pastors). https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/2599
quote:Originally posted by One Third African: West African, Niger-Congo-speaking population that picked up pastoralism and some genetic admixture from a Saharan population sometime during the last African Humid Period. It'd be like how the Maasai are Nilotes with some Northeast African
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Both ancestral pops were living in W Afr Monsoon optimal Tasilli/Akakus Tropical North Africa.
Independent STRUCTURE-like graphs show Chenini --the only 'Berbers' without Fula I-- with Fula I and in the Levant. They also show Fula I in Mykenaea. This Fula I exemplar ancestry runs throughout most the African samples even if < 3%.
No telling what proto-Fulani spoke in the early-mid Holocene. Mantel Test get language and genetics in kilter. As far as E-M2 goes language affiliation today is 'Nilo-Saharan' and 'Niger-Congo' perhaps not then differentiated. Fulani are known to adopt and abandon tongues. Oral traditions tell of language barriers between an older generation and the first generation phraty heads. Those Fulani who took over Hausa Bakwai now themselves speak Hausa nearly exclusively.
posted
^ You bring up an interesting point. As Keita and others wisely pointed out, language and culture is different from biology. This is not to say the ancestral or pre-Fulani ancestors necessarily spoke Afrithrean language but they may not have spoken the prevailing Niger-Congo languages they speak now. Speaking of which (pun intended) do you Tukuler know of the type of pastoral vocab or syntax the Fulani use and of what linguistic provenance it may have. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Nilo-Saharan. Recall that modern Nubians are Nilo-Saharan speakers but ancient Nubians were likely not (likely Afrithrean) judging by substratum words, and that interestingly even all the Egyptian cattle and pastoral terms are Nilo-Saharan in origin.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: The question is why didn't it leave an autosomal footprint. Like in the example of COV20126.
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Huh? I'm confused. It sounds like you are asking a question you already answered.
I've seen ancestry test where Ashkenazi are more Broadly European than Ashkenazi. Yet more than 1% of them have L2 and they have quite a bit of E. Didn't you already answer this question with way Europeans lost Neanderthal ancestry markers without mixing with 'Africans'?
I might have suggested things before, but I don't recall dropping any specifics regarding this time period in question (~11-7kya). Right now I feel like we can develop a better understanding of the genetic landscape around that time period, considering we have aDNA and quite a few interesting studies revolving around pastorilsm and LP. I think we have enough data do to make solid prediction of which Haplogroups these saharans carried, their autosomal composition, and when and where they've traveled.
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: The question is why didn't it leave an autosomal footprint. Like in the example of COV20126.
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Huh? I'm confused. It sounds like you are asking a question you already answered.
I've seen ancestry test where Ashkenazi are more Broadly European than Ashkenazi. Yet more than 1% of them have L2 and they have quite a bit of E. Didn't you already answer this question with way Europeans lost Neanderthal ancestry markers without mixing with 'Africans'?
I might have suggested things before, but I don't recall dropping any specifics regarding this time period in question (~11-7kya). Right now I feel like we can develop a better understanding of the genetic landscape around that time period, considering we have aDNA and quite a few interesting studies revolving around pastorilsm and LP. I think we have enough data do to make solid prediction of which Haplogroups these saharans carried, their autosomal composition, and when and where they've traveled.
Gone head spit.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Keita was alright for his day and age but even then Mantel's test linked biology to language to an extent. A Mantel test can also link geography to biology. Don't think Baker's 2017 article used it but it draws links between language and biology.
Fulani are Hal Pulaaren (speakers of Pulaar) and are an 'Atlantic' subset which is a 'Niger-Congo' subset. Only the Hausa-Fulani are 'Afrithrean' speakers, adapted little more than a century ago.
If current language is the determinant then Fulani didn't exist until ~1500 yrs ago in the mid-lower Senegal on both sides of the river.
Even the sample providers of that Fula I ancestral lineage have multiple ancestries. At K=7 Fula I is more Mandinka II than Chenini/Fula I. By K=13 Fula I comprises ~70% of their makeup and eleven other ancestral lineages are apparent.
Comparing cattle related terminology is an apt approach but but I don't have any resources at hand to do that assignment.
Blench has a lamented, self unpublished, article on NC/NS split following up on Nicolai & Rottland.
BTW if Afrithrean replaces "Afro-Asian" I'm all for it. A designation that doesn't include Asia like Asia was some big founder locale for an African phylum.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Keita was alright for his day and age but even then Mantel's test linked biology to language to an extent. A Mantel test can also link geography to biology. Don't think Baker's 2017 article used it but it draws links between language and biology.
Of course! I never denied there was a link between biology and language at all since all languages originate from specific populations. My point is like Keita we should assess this link with cautions as language can easily be adopted by other populations. I make the analogy between Indo-European and Afrithrean. You have Indo-Aryans speakers in Sri-Lanka who are black-skinned and genetically do not represent the original Indo-Aryans much less original Indo-Europeans. At the same time you have fair-skinned Semitic speakers in the Middle East who don't represent the original Semitic speakers much less original Afrithrean speakers in Africa.
quote:Fulani are Hal Pulaaren (speakers of Pulaar) and are an 'Atlantic' subset which is a 'Niger-Congo' subset. Only the Hausa-Fulani are 'Afrithrean' speakers, adapted little more than a century ago.
Yes that's what I figured. Most Fulani are Niger-Congo speakers though I find it interesting that their Atlantic grouping which includes Wolof is the group within Niger-Congo that gets the most comparisons to Egyptian.
quote:If current language is the determinant then Fulani didn't exist until ~1500 yrs ago in the mid-lower Senegal on both sides of the river.
Even the sample providers of that Fula I ancestral lineage have multiple ancestries. At K=7 Fula I is more Mandinka II than Chenini/Fula I. By K=13 Fula I comprises ~70% of their makeup and eleven other ancestral lineages are apparent.
Which I think hints at their partial Saharan origins
quote:Comparing cattle related terminology is an apt approach but but I don't have any resources at hand to do that assignment.
Blench has a lamented, self unpublished, article on NC/NS split following up on Nicolai & Rottland.
That's something I need to look further in.
quote:BTW if Afrithrean replaces "Afro-Asian" I'm all for it. A designation that doesn't include Asia like Asia was some big founder locale for an African phylum.
I prefer Afrithrean or Afro-Erithrean as the language phylum is found on both sides of the Erithrean or Red Sea. Speaking of which, you first cited that epigraphic evidence from Arabia showing the probability that Nilo-Saharan languages were once spoken there as well and not surprisingly there are Euronuts trying to claim that phylum as "Eurasian" as well LOL
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti
I never denied there was a link between biology and language
Never meant you thought no links exist between language and biology. Just showing you Mantel's test's the way to "assess this link with cautions". Did Keita ever use it? What results did he log?
quote:like Keita we should
I'm afraid Keita's replacing Diop as Most Worshipful Master. I acknowledge the work of my masters but reserve 'final judgements' for myself.
quote:Most Fulani are Niger-Congo speakers though I find it interesting that their Atlantic grouping which includes Wolof is the group within Niger-Congo that gets the most comparisons to Egyptian.
Yeah I've seen Francophone works on that. Yes Diop used Wolof as his Atlantic AEL proxy. Analogies are often drawn between Pulaar and Bantu.
Who knows what the proto(first)-Fulani spoke in AHP Tropical North Africa --in the region where today's Algeria, Libya, and Niger meet-- long before any AE even existed. Else walking, quacking, and looking like a duck does not make for a duck. Too many culture similarities passed down more than 5000 years that vary very little were primarily documented by the rupestral artists.
quote:their partial Saharan origins
That's where Fulani originate though I balk at Sahran because it calls a different phenotype people into people's mind as the Med coast thru Sahra's south borders are labeled North Africa.
Just like with Maurusian, I'm no longer calling any Sudanese peoples who followed their meat food supply that was hoofing it northward by a name hiding their actual origin. No more Saharo-Sudanese or like names for me. Simply Sudanese, the same way Gafsians in Sahra remain Gafsian without morphing into Saharo-Gafsian.
All African males of E-M4727 via V2003 V1891 V4257 and Z15939 lineages are Sudanese whose 'parents' migrated to Tropical North Africa then emigrated from Tropical North Africa by ~5500 BP when the rivers lakes and marshes dried up.
Here's that Blench title complete with whining. FURTHER EVIDENCE FOR NIGER-SAHARAN AND THEPROBLEM OF PAN-AFRICAN ROOTS This paper was originally presented at the VIIth Nilo-Saharan Conference in Vienna, 2-6th September, 1998 and has been revised for publication. It was sent to the editor, Norbert Cyffer in 1999 and proofed in 2000. Its non-appearance is a mystery and there is s strong suspicion it won’t be published. Roger Blench
It's a crime ES never developed teams to look into topical questions like you ask about Fulfulde.
quote:Afrithrean or Afro-Erithrean as the language phylum is found on both sides of the Erithrean or Red Sea.
Yeah, I'ma use Afrithrean because no Afro and no Asia and as you say it perfectly designates its speakers if we say all sides of the Red Sea. I know, I know.
Just wanna add Fulani and pre(before)-Berbers developed side by side such that all modern taMazight speakers and Canarians display Fula I ancestry except the Chenini in Tunisia themselves an exemplar. Funny thing is how Fula I and Chenini exemplared ancestries show up in tandem throughout the continent like in the Cape for instance.
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