quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: What positions do I hold that are Afrocentrist? BTW I also think you're a good guy, you just have a chip on your shoulder. I get it but it makes you quick to fight where you don't need to.
I honestly don't think you can understand since I've shown you many times how they constantly disrespect us even in the academic sphere and you reacted as if I was overreacting so yes if I fight where I don't need to is because I've a long experience with these pernicious people and I already know where they want to lead us.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Being upset by that is understandable, I've never promoted that kind of behavior except against Berbers who initiate disrespect to me, then the gloves are off and Im willing to roll in the mud with a fellow pig.
Ive always agreed that you and your people are native to Africa going back to the depictions on the walls of Kmt.(and beyond that obviously)
what I don't get is trying to pretend like there s only one type of "black" in the world. This is why I don't like arguing what is black because its subjective to ones culture and ultimately leads to no where. Africans are Africans, they come in many different looks.
You don't promote it but you never try to contradict all the members who share their fancy theories and disrespect us. You only react to pretend I'm anti-black.
Djehuti saying east africans don't have eurasian ancestry --> silent DougM saying no eurasian ancestry in North Africa during the mesolithic and neolithic ---> silent Yatunde lisa implying modern north africans are arabs mixed with white slaves ---> silent Tazarah claiming ancient levantines were black ---> silent Antalas contradicting them with studies ----> "you're obviously anti-black" "true negro fallacy" "racist"
As for "black" it's simply your american point of view that enters in conflict with mine since here we don't consider mixed/biracial individuals to be black like you do. You clearly have a more broad definition than people in Africa or Europe. Also I think we both agree that reducing this label simply to skin color is utterly ridiculous and I already told you that I do not view sub-saharans as looking all the same or as being all perfectly "negroid". Many afrocentrists use this broad label to claim anything they want and feel kinship with people who are absolutely not related to them this is why I stick to a strict definition and something that refers to both ancestry and phenotype.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB]
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] Anyway it won't change anything of what I said ; Egypt as a whole still had more ties with the middle east than any other regions and the presence of levantines in the history of this region is also well attested and as old as the nubian one.
So what, who cares? Every Egyptologist,
EVERY
SINGLE
ONE
Knows where the Dynastic Culture came from, they know were the people lived that pioneered what became Ancient Egypt.
The South, Upper Egypt, AFRICA etc.
Its not Afrocentrism, its 100% bonafied accepted fact because thats what the evidence shows.
Post 20 Sensationalist Dog Whistling DNA studies, Post 100, Post 1 Million
It will Never Ever change that established fact.
5,000 years from now Egyptology texts will still say Dynastic Egyptian culture came from the Nile Valley.
I think you mix up the culture which span thousands of years with the unification process and I don't see what's your point exactly ? Upper egypt is not nubia nor are its people sub-saharans.
So no it's not "Africa" or "The South", that culture doesn't have much to do with any other culture in Africa nor did most africans played any role in its edification (including my own ancestors).
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: There was not one mention of a single united entity called Nubia in 3,000 years of Dynastic Egypt.
People falling under your umbrella of Nubians were incorporated by 1sy Dynasty as Egyptians, while some kept Neheshy names they still played a vital role within Egypt for all its Dynastic history and beyond, No other ethnicity can claim that, esp. any Middle Eastern one.
Middle eastern influences can literally be seen already during the predynastic era and where do you think egyptians come from ? lol most of their ancestors obviously came from the middle east and mixed with the Nile valley populations.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: What is the point of this quote?
It shows that even foreigners recognized that they were two distinct populations and not the kind of "egypto-nubian" brotherhood which you try to push.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I posted those images to show there's a such thing as a black Tunisian, not that they're the only type of Tunisian there is.
And I told you that they were most likely descendent of slaves and for no reason you got triggered by this and implied I was racist.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Antalas has had his feelings hurt and is on here crying like a baby...
Antalas, if all of these hypothesis hurt your feelings so much, I can't imagine what it must be like for you, a small dark "caucasian", to live among all those tall manly Aryan Caucasian superiors...
According to blumenbach et al.. you are a sub race of Caucasian, who is degraded by climate and admixture.. to bad for you..
Cry you big baby, the Aryans are never going to accept you! Embrace your inner AFROCENTRICST
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: [QB] Antalas has had his feelings hurt and is on here crying like a baby...
Antalas, if all of these hypothesis hurt your feelings so much, I can't imagine what it must be like for you, a small dark "caucasian", to live among all those tall manly Aryan Caucasian superiors...
According to blumenbach et al.. you are a sub race of Caucasian, who is degraded by climate and admixture.. to bad for you..
Cry you big baby, the Aryans are never going to accept you! Embrace your inner AFROCENTRICST
Stop projecting and most people where I live aren't "aryan caucasian". North africans being targeted by europeans doesn't mean they have to feel "black".
My ancestors already used to make the difference :
quote: He compared his victory of the Battle of Three Kings—‘triumph over the yellow-skinned enemy’—to the victory over the Songhai—‘triumph over the black-skinned slave’—after which he proclaims that God has ‘fulfilled this dynasty’s prayers of unifying the race of Sham with the race of Ham.’ Not only did Ahmad al-Mansur evoke the racialized interpretation of the ‘Curse of Ham’ theory, but his distinction between the ‘yellow-skinned enemy’ and the ‘black-skinned slave’ suggests he perceived himself and his Moroccan subjects as distinct from whiteness and blackness.
S. Errazzouki, Between the "yellow-skinned enemy" and the "black-skinned slave": early modern genealogies of race and slavery in Sa'dian Morocco
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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These two pharaohs above come from two different yet successive dynasties, Amenhotep III of the 18th dynasty and Seti I founder of the 19th dynasty. Of course these two kings show no resemblance because they are unrelated; however is there no connection between them at all??
Seti I was originally a commander of the army hailing from the Delta and was successor to Horemheb who was the last pharaoh of the 18th dynasty who was originally commander-in-chief of the army who served under the pharaohs Aye and his predecessor Tutankhamun.
There is one theory that the key member connecting the 19th to the 18th is Seti I's wife Sitre. She is often assumed to be a nonroyal or even "commoner" simply because of the many royal titles she bears, that of 'King's Daughter' is absent. But such a basis for this assumption is invalid if one considers that Egyptians were matrilineal to begin with. In fact, one royal title she does bear is that of Iryt-pt which is often translated as "hereditary princess". If such is the case then, hereditary to whose family? Tutankhamun or Ay (who is brother to Tiye)??
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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I accidentally discovered this is actually a replica of the Seti I mummy from the National Geographic Treasures of the Earth exhibit at the Children's museum of Indianapolis
.
.
This is the actual mummy the replica seems very close to it, probably made with a 3D laser scan
Subject SN to M Plane Seqenenre Tao 34 Ahmose I 27.2 Amenhotep I 33.7 Thutmose I 34 Thutmose II 37.4 Thutmose III 43.1 Amenhotep II 38.4 Thutmose IV 26.2 Amenhotep III 28 Smenkhkare 37.33 ---------------------- Seti I 32.22 Ramesses II 31.9 Merenptah 33.4 Seti II 41.9 Siptah 49 Ramesses III 28.9 Ramesses IV 31.8 Ramesses V 28.6 Ramesses IX (XI)33.4
In the study of Alexander and Hitchcock of Alabama populations, the AA norm for SN-Mand. was 34.4 compared to 32.0 for Caucasians. The average for the Pharaohs is 34.23. If one includes the New Kingdom Queens the mean is 35.83! (Alexander TL, Hitchcock HP. Cephalometric standards for American Negro children. Am J Orthod 1978;74:298-304)
ANB Values (A point-Nasion-B point)
Subject ANB Seqenenre Tao 6.22 Ahmose I 7.5 Amenhotep I 5.56 Thutmose I 10.46 Thutmose II 3.41 Thutmose III 6.1 Amenhotep II 5.5 Thutmose IV 5.84 Amenhotep III 6 Smenkhkare 5.41 --------------------- Seti I 5.49 Ramesses II 6.94 Merenptah 7.5 Seti II 3.7 Siptah -- Ramesses III 7.2 Ramesses IV 6.26 Ramesses V 3.14 Ramesses IX (XI)4.74
The values here are almost all very high. The mean is 5.9428, which exceeds the means obtained for persons of African descent in previous studies and far exceeds the means obtained for Caucasians (Downs WB. Variations in facial relationships: Their significance in treatment and prognosis. Am J Orthod 1948;34:812-840; Fonseca RJ, Klein WD. A cephalometric evaluation of American Negro women. Am J Orthod 1978;73:152-160; Steiner CC. Cephalometrics in clinical practice. Angle Orthod 1959;29:8-29).
Mind you craniofacial traits are inherited from both parents though the stronger masculine traits come from the father. So what of queens?...
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Subject SN to M Plane Tetisheri 31.75 Nefertary 32.79 Sitakamos 34.95 Meryetamon 33.50 Tjuya 36.51 Tiye 47.16 ---------------------- Tawosret 29.46 Nodjme 40.38 Makare 52.93 Henttowy 45.52 Esemkhebe 39.54
The mean for the New Kingdom Queens is 38.59. The rays of this angle are very long, so slight differences in degrees can translate to large linear differences.
The ANB angle is one that has proved successful in developing dentofacial norms for blacks in both Africa and America. Together with steep mandible angles, protruding incisors, anterior prognathism, receding chin, large facial angle (SN-M Plane) and higher lower face as compared to middle face, these features help distinguish the dentofacial complex of persons of African descent. In addition, the royal mummies show features like elevated skull, projecting glabella, and possibly an occipital bun, all of which were common amongst the widespread ancestral African population. The mean for ANB angle among the New Kingdom Queens is 5.803.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Who was Who Among the Royal Mummies (1995) Several mummies in particular Jim found to be quite anomalous in terms of their positions within the genealogical sequence: Ahmose, Amenhotep II, Amenhotep III, and Seti II. Seti II is an interesting case, because he should belong to the Nineteenth Dynasty line, being the grandson of Ramesses II and son of Merenptah. Elliot Smith in his catalogue of the royal mummies had already noted in 1912 that Seti II does not at all resemble the orthognathous heavy-jawed pharaohs of the Nineteenth Dynasty, but bears a striking resemblance to the kings of the Eighteenth Dynasty. Smith's observations, which were not made with the aid of x-rays and computer analysis of craniofacial variation, nonetheless were those of a person with considerable experience in examining human remains. Subjected to Jim's more sophisticated approach using cephalometric x-ray tracings and cluster analysis, this mummy was found to be most similar in craniofacial morphology to the mummies of Thutmose II and III. In other words, Seti II was not Seti II. The confusion between Seti II and Thutmose II may have been occasioned by the similarity of their prenomens when written in the hieratic script.
And here is a genetic paper on the identification of royal mummies I haven't finished reading yet.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] [I think you mix up the culture which span thousands of years with the unification process and I don't see what's your point exactly ? Upper egypt is not nubia nor are its people sub-saharans.
What does "Sub Sahrans" have to do with anything. You claim that I falsely portray you as upholding a True Negro ideology, yet when we discuss Africans above your mythological magical barrier you bring up Sub Sahran red herring arguments.
Second, people falling under your United entity not used in 3,000 Dynastic history of "Nubia" were in fact present in Upper Egypt, the nome of Ta Seti, and remained a vital aristocracy in that region through Dynastic history.
Stop trying to talk about history yo know nothing about making claims as if you are an authority.
quote:So no it's not "Africa" or "The South", that culture doesn't have much to do with any other culture in Africa nor did most africans played any role in its edification (including my own ancestors).
You are not an expert or even know WTF you are talking about, the peopling of the Nile Valley and formation of Dynastic Egypt is well known.
This is basic grounded fact, that every Egyptologist or anyone studying the history of the Nile Valley knows and accepts.
I mean really who are you to make sweeping, idiotic statements like that
quote:It shows that even foreigners recognized that they were two distinct populations and not the kind of "egypto-nubian" brotherhood which you try to push.
You post quotes of Greco-Roman authors showing one people were darker skinned than the other, a Fact anyone with two brain cells can see portrayed by the Egyptians themselves...and that somehow equals them not being a "brotherhood"
That's somehow a revelation to me?
again whats the relevance of that post, if you don't subscribe to True Negro ideologies and accept Africans can still be Africans and have different shades of skin color?
BTW, when did I ever say anything about an "Egypto-Nubian" brotherhood?
Must hurt knowing Ta-Set Neheshy were a foundation of A. Egypt culture huh....must Drive you and every one spamming Ka-Kazoid Egypt what those blubbery lipped True N-gger Egyptians left on the Temple Walls..
quote:And I told you that they were most likely descendent of slaves and for no reason you got triggered by this and implied I was racist
I did'nt get "triggered" I just find it odd that every black Coastal NA is a slave to you, I mean is there a such thing as a native non slave black in the Mahgreb according to you?
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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I don't post here that much, nor do I know much about "Eurasianizing" of Africa as much as you do, so how can I even critique them properly.
Hell my posts to you at least when it comes to NA populations history is mainly me agreeing with you more than the posters you mention.
My disagreement with you is you using True Negro/Neo Hamite arguments in you debates. Maybe you don't realize it, but its obvious to me.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB]Djehuti saying east africans don't have eurasian ancestry --> silent DougM saying no eurasian ancestry in North Africa during the mesolithic and neolithic ---> silent Yatunde lisa implying modern north africans are arabs mixed with white slaves ---> silent Tazarah claiming ancient levantines were black ---> silent Antalas contradicting them with studies ----> "you're obviously anti-black" "true negro fallacy" "racist"
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Must hurt knowing Ta-Set Neheshy were a foundation of A. Egypt culture huh....must Drive you and every one spamming Ka-Kazoid Egypt what those blubbery lipped True N-gger Egyptians left on the Temple Walls..
Naqada and early dynastic history don't have much to do with Ta-seti and there was no "blubbery lipped True N-gger Egyptians" actually they made the distinction clear enough :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I did'nt get "triggered" I just find it odd that every black Coastal NA is a slave to you, I mean is there a such thing as a native non slave black in the Mahgreb according to you?
The people you posted were not "coastal" but southern tunisians living next to the Sahara ; exactly where there are whole communities/villages of ex-slaves and like I said many times there has never been any native coastal north african that was black. Most black in North Africa were brought with the slave trade and we're not talking about a few thousand slaves but millions being brought non-stop from the early 8th century to the early XXth century.
Here one example since you don't want to listen :
quote: According to many Tunisian researchers, whole villages of former slaves still exist in the South. One could even distinguish a discrete border separating them from the villages of their former masters where their descendants continue to live. These villages, where several hundred families reside, bear the collective name that the masters had given to their slaves. It is still in Tunisia that the word 'abid (slave) is used to designate a black person.
Malek Chebel, L'esclavage en terre d'islam, p.227
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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My disagreement with you is you using True Negro/Neo Hamite arguments in you debates. Maybe you don't realize it, but its obvious to me.
???
So denying that people with recent european ancestry are fully black african or that dark skinned indians aren't related to west africans is being a proponent of the hamitic theory or the true negro fallacy ? Did I say all advancements and civilizations in Africa are the product of eurasian influences ? Did I ever imply any kind of superiority ? Did I say all sub-saharans look the same ? No quite the contrary I kept insisting that there is an important diversity in this region and people from there do not simply identify as "black".
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Must hurt knowing Ta-Set Neheshy were a foundation of A. Egypt culture huh....must Drive you and every one spamming Ka-Kazoid Egypt what those blubbery lipped True N-gger Egyptians left on the Temple Walls..
Naqada and early dynastic history don't have much to do with Ta-seti and there was no "blubbery lipped True N-gger Egyptians" actually they made the distinction clear enough :
who is the one on the upper left?
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^ People, just ignore Antalas the same way he ignores the craniofacial data of the kings and queens showing their African traits while resorting to post cherry picked pics of southern Sudanese to contrast with Egyptians.
The topic is about the 18th and 19th dynasties and their relations or lack thereof to each other.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I only ignore people who have shown blatant dishonesty and made pseudo-scientific claims. Your craniofacial datas are too specific to draw any conclusion when it comes to race (also nubian admixture can influence the datas) and the same kind of values are found among NW africans so imagine if we had to compared them to modern egyptian values.
Again always put your information into the egyptian context if you're not able to do this then avoid drawing conclusion about ancient egypt's racial make up. Here one example :
In the 1972 paper, "On the Craniological Study of Egyptians in various periods" by M.F Gaballah et al, with reference to the works of both Batrawi 1946 and Sidney Smith 1926, it is said that the available series of modern Egyptian skulls conform more closely with the Southern phenotype that characterized the predynastic and early dynastic cultures of Upper Egypt such as the Naqada.Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ People, just ignore Antalas the same way he ignores the craniofacial data of the kings and queens showing their African traits while resorting to post cherry picked pics of southern Sudanese to contrast with Egyptians.
The topic is about the 18th and 19th dynasties and their relations or lack thereof to each other.
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
X-ray of King Tut's skull (18th dynasty)
Posts: 2493 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: These two pharaohs above come from two different yet successive dynasties, Amenhotep III of the 18th dynasty and Seti I founder of the 19th dynasty. Of course these two kings show no resemblance because they are unrelated; however is there no connection between them at all??
Seti I was originally a commander of the army hailing from the Delta and was successor to Horemheb who was the last pharaoh of the 18th dynasty who was originally commander-in-chief of the army who served under the pharaohs Aye and his predecessor Tutankhamun.
There is one theory that the key member connecting the 19th to the 18th is Seti I's wife Sitre. She is often assumed to be a nonroyal or even "commoner" simply because of the many royal titles she bears, that of 'King's Daughter' is absent. But such a basis for this assumption is invalid if one considers that Egyptians were matrilineal to begin with. In fact, one royal title she does bear is that of Iryt-pt which is often translated as "hereditary princess". If such is the case then, hereditary to whose family? Tutankhamun or Ay (who is brother to Tiye)??
As others have said, Seti was the father of Ramses I and most importantly this family line originated in the South. The reason Horemheb chose this new dynasty was to restore the defenses of the country that had waned under Akhenaton. And this is why he chose a military man from the South who also was part of the worship of Set of Nubt. This is documented on the year 400 stela which retraces the Ramessid family line all the way back to Seti the commander who was a worshipper of Set "Nubti" (from Nubt). A lot of this confusion about whether they originated in the Delta comes from outdated Egyptologists who tried to argue that Set worship was a "foreign" influence in the Delta. And as such being Southerners and the first of the line Seti, being great of the Medjay, it isn't shocking there is a strong connection to other populations in the South......
quote: The stela was unearthed in 1863 by Auguste Mariette, who was excavating within the great temple at Tanis. Mariette copied and then reburied the stela, which was rediscovered by Pierre Montet in 1933 and then moved in the Cairo Museum.
The incomplete stela was made during the reign of Ramesses II of the 19th Dynasty; this pharaoh appears in the lunette while offering wine jars to Seth, whose name was erased when this deity was demonised in later times. Behind the pharaoh stands an official named Seti, the author of the stela.
The inscription on the lower register says that Seti, son of Paramessu and Tia, came to worship Seth and commemorate this event by issuing the granite stela; curiously, and with the approval of Ramesses II, Seti dated the stela to the “Year 400, fourth day of the fourth month of the Season of the Inundation” of a pharaoh named Aapehtiseth Nubti (“Great is the strength of Seth, he of Ombos”):
Since the discovery it was obvious that the Year 400 of Nubti was not a regnal year, but rather a sort of anniversary. Giving the 400-years interval and the explicit references to the god Seth, Nubti was initially considered an othervise unattested Hyksos ruler. Thus, it was suggested that the 400th anniversary could refer to an important event such as the construction of a temple of Seth, or, more generally, to the beginning of a new era. The discovery also fueled the now-disproven hypothesis that Tanis had to be identified with the ancient Hyksos capital Avaris, and that the stela may have been a commemoration of the arrival of the Hyksos.
In more modern times, however, scholars realized that the official Seti is none other than Ramesses' father Seti I in his early career, and the earlier king Nubti was not a real king, but rather Seth himself provided with fictitious royal titles. Going 400 years back before the period suggested by the stela (most likely when Seti was an official under king Horemheb), gives a datation of the celebrated event of around 1730–1720 BCE.[
Set the Nubti is a reference to the earliest known site of Set worship which is in Nubt, also called Ombos, far to the South. Nubt is also called Naqada in the modern Arabic language and was used in the naming convention of the predynastic era. The town is called Nubt because it was a gold trading center and thus associated with the heiroglyph for gold. Technically the "naqada period" should be called the "Nubt period" or golden period of the predynastic.
quote: May the strong bull [1] beloved of Ma'at [2] live, the lord of the Sed festival [2] , like his father Ptah-Tanen , the King of Upper and Lower Egypt , User-Ma'at-Re , Setep-en-Re , son of Re , Ramses-Meri-Amen [4] , endowed with life, he who is under the tutelage of the two Ladies [5], the protector of Egypt, the conqueror of neighbouring countries, Re who gave birth to all gods, who ordered the Double-land [6], Golden Horus rich in years and great in victories, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt User-Ma'at-Re Setep-en-Re, son of Re, Ramses Meri-Amen, the prince who furnished the Double-Land with monuments in his name in order that the sun may shine in all its love, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt User-Ma'at-Re Setep-en-Re, son of Re, Ramses-Meri-Amen
His Majesty has commanded to raise a great stela in granite for the great name of his fathers, in order to raise the name of the father of his fathers ( and for ) his father the King Men-Ma'at-Re, son of Re, Seti Mer-ne-Ptah lasting for eternity, like Re every day.
Year 400, the fourth month of the season of Shammu, the fourth day of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Seth-Great-of-valor, son of Re whom he loves, Nubti [11], beloved by Re-Hor-akhty, may he live for ever.
The Regent came, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the fanbearer on the right hand of the King [7], the leader of the bowmen, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw [8], the great of Medjay [9], the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry the lord master of the ceremonies of the Feast of the He-goat [10], the master of Smendes, the first prophet of Seth, the lector-priest of Wadjet-Opet-Tawy, the head of all priests of all the gods, Seti, right of voice, son of the Prince regent, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw, the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry, Paramesse [12], right of voice, born from the mistress of the house, the songstress of Re, Tiw, right of voice, he says :
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Must hurt knowing Ta-Set Neheshy were a foundation of A. Egypt culture huh....must Drive you and every one spamming Ka-Kazoid Egypt what those blubbery lipped True N-gger Egyptians left on the Temple Walls..
Naqada and early dynastic history don't have much to do with Ta-seti and there was no "blubbery lipped True N-gger Egyptians" actually they made the distinction clear enough :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I did'nt get "triggered" I just find it odd that every black Coastal NA is a slave to you, I mean is there a such thing as a native non slave black in the Mahgreb according to you?
The people you posted were not "coastal" but southern tunisians living next to the Sahara ; exactly where there are whole communities/villages of ex-slaves and like I said many times there has never been any native coastal north african that was black. Most black in North Africa were brought with the slave trade and we're not talking about a few thousand slaves but millions being brought non-stop from the early 8th century to the early XXth century.
Here one example since you don't want to listen :
quote: According to many Tunisian researchers, whole villages of former slaves still exist in the South. One could even distinguish a discrete border separating them from the villages of their former masters where their descendants continue to live. These villages, where several hundred families reside, bear the collective name that the masters had given to their slaves. It is still in Tunisia that the word 'abid (slave) is used to designate a black person.
Malek Chebel, L'esclavage en terre d'islam, p.227
Who is the pharaoh on the left? Is that Hatshepsut?
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: He isn't really flip flopping because he actually believes that ancient "North Africans" were always Eurasian looking going back 20,000 years and therefore could be considered caucasian.
The boy is not only flip-flopping but twisting himself in knots like a pretzel.
When he initially questioned Egyptians looking black, I responded by posting photos of Baladi which he then tried to dismiss with the lie that they were cherry-picked photos of "Nubians living near the Sudanese border" even though they were actually indigenous Egyptians from Luxor northward up to Giza! He later posts photos of Baladi of the same exact complexion and in a few instances darker than the ones I posted but denies that they are black!
Then in Brandon's thread on Didyme, he makes the assumption that Didyme was Nubian because the Greek sources liken her complexion to coal even though they say she was a native of Egypt, but then he posts cranial nonmetric data showing Egyptians to be closely related to Nubians anyway! LOL
Then in another thread discussing Nubians, he states that Nubians aren't black either and that they are "genetically closer to Europeans than they are to Sub-Saharans" of course without presenting proof to his claims, though I think he erroneously makes his basis on the Christian Period Kulubnarti study. The guy is obviously caught in a confusion of his own making.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Are you implying that nubians were not already diverse and depicted differently? Are you implying that the nubians of Kush and Wawat were depicted the same way? Lower nubians had eurasian ancestry and were roughly similar to upper egyptians meanwhile further south nubians have always been depicted as similar to modern day dinkas.
Hey nutcase, I already told you that Kushites of Upper Nubia did NOT look like Dinka and Nuer!
Multiple metric studies from Keita and others show that Kushites morphologically resembled predynastic Egyptians, particularly Naqadans!
The peoples in ancient depictions who resemble Dinka and Nuer and most likely ancestors of these groups were instead tribes who lived under Kushite hegemony since Kush was actually an empire that included many peoples.
As for Lower Nubians i.e. Wawati having Eurasian ancestry, do you have any evidence of this? Christian Era Kulubnarti are not the same as dynastic Lower Nubians.
quote:Of course I will not answer to the mad claims of djehuti denying eurasian admixture in the Horn but it's now pretty much settled that lower nubians had eurasian ancestry;..
Since when have I ever denied Eurasian admixture in the Horn??! Your statement is a blatant lie so of course you can't cite a single post from me supporting your assertion.
My only claim is that most of the Eurasian admixture in the Horn dates to the early historical period if not Eneolithic times, and that such admixture tends to be overexaggerated by Euronuts like yourself since most of the admixture there occurs among Habesha (Ethio-Semitic speakers) at around 40%.
Again you cite the Kulubnarti study even though Nubia is not in the Horn and again Kulubnarti dates to the early Christian Period.
However, a recent autosomal study on modern Nubians shows that unsurprisingly their autosomal profile most closely resembles modern Sudanese Arabs who are essentially culturally Arabized Nubians.
By the way, I also question how much of this "Eurasian" ancestry actually originated in Eurasia since even scholars are now admitting that Basal Eurasian originated in Africa.
All of your claims are either outright lies or tenuous theories resting on a boat full of holes.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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resembles that painting, stereotypic African features
This leads me to believe that this skull might not be Amenhotep III although he may still may be part of the Amenhotep lineage. The identification of this mummy has been historically disputed although recent DNA extraction has proved kinship
However I am not completely certain the features of that painting could not correspond to that skull
Yes the depiction look somewhat sub-saharan so he might have had nubian ancestors but the skull itself shows no evident ssa traits so either these depictions are misleading or that's not his skull.
"Somewhat Sub Saharan," "Nubian ancestors" Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
In Anglo America whites forced black identity onto anyone having the slightest smidgen of black ancestry. Nonetheless hateful anti-blacks hypothesize one drop theory as a Black invention??? Cuckoo ding cuckoo!
Historically in Latin America various schemes were developed for every possible joining of American, African, and European ancestries. In some countries right down to the 1/64 level. These schemes are so ridiculous LAs of any African descent today recognize themselves as black and are seen so in Europe.
So regardless of any non-black ancestry such people are taunted as monkeys the same as young Saharawi will stoop grunt and drag their knuckles on the ground to insult black kids there.
Mixed race bi-racial (which two races -- European and East Asian?) is meaningless. The precise ingredients are called for.
Ain't nobody going back to the terms smoothing over black self-identity chosen by most multiple ancestried individuals. Get over it.
In contrast to France’s team, Italy fielded an all-white squad. Marco Materazzi, the Italian player headbutted by Zidane, also plays for the Italian pro team Lazio. Lazio’s hardcore fan club, “the Ultras,” is infamous for its fascist politics and overtly racist behavior. “The Ultras” recruit people to ultra-right political groups in Italy. They have displayed racist banners at matches calling opposing players “n*****s” and frequently make racist chants and monkey sounds at opposing players of African descent.
Again, the racist abuse against African soccer players is NOT limited to "Sub-Saharans" or those who are ebony dark. To many Euros North Africans are "white-washed n*ggers"! Which is ironically what Europeans describe many Egyptian natives especially in the Delta.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: they look different.
Again, of course they look different because they are from different dynasties and different families.
However, is there no relation between them at all?
One thing I find curious is that although the 19th dynasty originates in the Delta patrilineally from Commander Seti and his son Ramessu I, many of their wives not only hail from Waset (Thebes) but also happen to hold the title of iryt-pat which is often translated as "hereditary princess" and the feminine equivalent of iry-pat which is commonly translated as 'crown prince'.
If one looks at the 19th dynasty family tree, Ramessu I's wife Sitra, their son Seti I's wife Tuya, and the wife their son Ramess II who was Isetnofret-- all held the title of iryt-pat.
When one reads the Wiki entry on Sitre, in her biography it says: The absence of the title King's Daughter for her indicates that Sitre was of non-royal descent. She did hold a large number of titles. She was a Hereditary Princess (iryt-p`t), a Great King’s Mother (mwt-niswt-wrt), also described as a God’s Mother (mwt-ntr). Her queenly titles included Lady of The Two Lands (nbt-t3wy), King’s Wife (hmt-nisw), Great King’s Wife, his beloved (hmt-niswt-wrt meryt.f) and Mistress of Upper and Lower Egypt (hnwt-Shm’w-mhw). She also held the title of God’s Wife (hmt-ntr).
The assumption that she was non-royal simply because she wasn't a king's daughter is one that is all too common in Egyptology though some Egyptologists are realizing the significance of matrilineal kinship in ancient Egyptian culture. Only matrilineage can explain how one can have the title of "hereditary princess" without being a king's daughter and such is found throughout Egyptian dynastic families.
We know that by the late 18th dynasty there were many royal daughters and princesses not all of whom we have records of. We don't even know the identity of Tutankhamun's mother-- the Younger Lady-- other than that she was the full sister of his father whose identity as Akhenaten is also uncertain.
My guess is to legitimize their rule, the 19th dynasty and other dynasty kings married hereditary princesses.
This also explains the unusual craniometric trend among the 19th-21st dynasties, whereas the males tend to have very 'northern' profiles i.e. Coastal North African whereas the females had very 'southern' profiles. [See P.K.M.'s Data for New Kingdom Queens]
Again I am reminded of W.M.F. Petrie commenting how kings of the late New Kingdom "favored queens of inferior type".
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Again, the racist abuse against African soccer players is NOT limited to "Sub-Saharans" or those who are ebony dark. To many Euros North Africans are "white-washed n*ggers"! Which is ironically what Europeans describe many Egyptian natives especially in the Delta.
. Interesting. I know a Moroccan Jewess who dated a European white guy who called her ma negresse. There was nothing black about her in the least and her profile was the same as many a coastal NA Jewish woman. Much to my delight she shared her region's Judaic culture with NYC blackish Jews identifying themselves as Sepharade.
I guess Euros who feel this way are continuing a long held Euro labelling of blacks from Alexandrine word mauros to Morocco ancient Mauretania named for their maur color.
Kudos to DJ because my original posting of the below is lost. Still searching the archive for the post referencing the Tufts Greco-Latin dictionaries for those who recognize a dictionary overrides common man-on-the-street opinion.
adjective μαύρος => black, colored, sable, pitchy, coloured σκοτεινός => dark, obscure, dingy, murky, shady, black μαυρισμένος => black άσχημος => ugly, nasty, unsightly, seamy, homely, black άγριος => wild, feral, fierce, savage, ferocious, black δυσοίωνος => sinister, ominous, inauspicious, portentous, pessimistic, black
verb μουτζουρώνω => black, smudge, smut αμαυρώνω => darken, tarnish, stain, black δυσφημώ => disparage, discredit, vilify, defame, denigrate, black
DJ added From Snowden: The Mauri, another northwest African people whose color received frequent notice, were at times described as 'nigri' (black) and 'adusti' (scorched).
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Luckily I had a copy of the below in my personal archive. It was hacked out by Ukranians from a thread with lots of good stuff from Jari and others.
In contrast to France’s team, Italy fielded an all-white squad. Marco Materazzi, the Italian player headbutted by Zidane, also plays for the Italian pro team Lazio. Lazio’s hardcore fan club, “the Ultras,” is infamous for its fascist politics and overtly racist behavior. “The Ultras” recruit people to ultra-right political groups in Italy. They have displayed racist banners at matches calling opposing players “n*****s” and frequently make racist chants and monkey sounds at opposing players of African descent.
Again, the racist abuse against African soccer players is NOT limited to "Sub-Saharans" or those who are ebony dark. To many Euros North Africans are "white-washed n*ggers"! Which is ironically what Europeans describe many Egyptian natives especially in the Delta.
How do you know it was directed towards north african players ? Especially that zidane looks whiter than italian players XD
Also even if europeans saw north africans as black including folks like me so what ? My identity is not based on what others perceive me as and my genetics and culture are unique and do not show any particular affinity with black africans, europeans or middle easterners.
You guys are mentally colonized and talk from the point of view of a discriminated "diaspora" and try to impose your pov on us and other africans.
Here the opinion of some somalis :
In historical/genetics debates blacks like to emphasize the supposedly "blackness" of some population to appropriate their culture and history and create this narrative of us the victims vs whites. Learn to respect our identities and the african diversity you can't reduce all of this to "black" because "whites hate you" "you're niggers to them".
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
^ I've read the news articles years ago where they said the slurs were against ALL Africans including North Africans. Yes some North Africans like Zidane look European themselves but not all of them. Many look black-mixed hence the French call them "nègre à la peau claire" and the Spanish "güeros negros" or as earlier Europeans said "whitened n*ggers". These are THEIR words not mine!
As for some Somalis not liking the label black, as you pointed out it is simply because the label has traditionally been used to describe Black Americans of slave descent. Somali of course are not that, however it still does not change the fact that the term is first and foremost a color label NOT an ethnic one which is why most Somalis I know have no problem with the label being applied to them only as a color one. Are you aware the same holds true for Nigerians?? I know many Nigerians who don't like the label 'black' applied to them for the same exact reasons as well as certain negative views they have on Black Americans which they use the slur "akata".
As for South Asians, I already told your ignorant self that IN India (and Sri-Lanka) guys like the one in your post would be described as kalu which is a Sanskrit based word. Do you know what that word means? If so, do you think its usage has anything to do with African Americans??
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ I've read the news articles years ago where they said the slurs were against ALL Africans including North Africans. Yes some North Africans like Zidane look European themselves but not all of them. Many look black-mixed hence the French call them "nègre à la peau claire" and the Spanish "güeros negros" or as earlier Europeans said "whitened n*ggers". These are THEIR words not mine!
How could they know ? There were thousands of people shouting. Also I speak french and I've never heard north africans being called "nègre à la peau claire" wtf... Spaniards use the pejorative term "moro" for us not what you typed.
In france north africans are known as "rebeu" "beur/beurette" "arabe" "bougnoule" etc You clearly invent terms and expression and no european view north africans as black.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: As for some Somalis not liking the label black, as you pointed out it is simply because the label has traditionally been used to describe Black Americans of slave descent. Somali of course are not that, however it still does not change the fact that the term is first and foremost a color label NOT an ethnic one which is why most Somalis I know have no problem with the label being applied to them only as a color one. Are you aware the same holds true for Nigerians?? I know many Nigerians who don't like the label 'black' applied to them for the same exact reasons as well as certain negative views they have on Black Americans which they use the slur "akata".
As for South Asians, I already told your ignorant self that IN India (and Sri-Lanka) guys like the one in your post would be described as kalu which is a Sanskrit based word. Do you know what that word means? If so, do you think its usage has anything to do with African Americans??
If it's simply a color label then many khoisans and ethiopians/eritreans aren't black same for many AAs who are considered "black" by most AAs. What would be the point of labelling people by color only ? You go by ancestry, history, culture, etc
As for India they certainly didn't use it to put all dark skinned humans under the same label but to emphasize the contrast between northern and southern indians.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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If people want to label themselves black, it is their thing. But people who are dark skinned, but not label themselves black should be respected. Not all dark skinned people in the world want to be lumped together with African Americans in the "black bag".
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Again, Ethiopia means black.
Yes ppl must be recognized by ancestry history culture etc. So why then promote black = only certain Africans?
Who says all dark skinned ppl fit the black adjective? Hell, there are completely "negroid" ppl of Inner African descent who reject the adjective like weather woman Elise Finch or some Cabo Verde Americans etc. More power to 'em. Self-determination is each individuals natural right.
We must respect the world's ppl who do in fact use the color descriptor black for themselves or do not reject the label.
Hatred of and bias against Blacks (the noun ID of most USA blacks) is not what counts as adefinitive argument. Other than Australians I know of no other ppl using Black as a noun instead of a descriptive adjective.
The problem arises from you white inventors of anthropology who are the ones who officially stripped away natural parameters like geography and ethnicity to fabricate a world of 2-5 races denoted by hierarchy color labels based on white perception. Dissenters need argue with them --your own white ppl-- and leave your ADOS jealousy and hatred out the room.
Yes that's what it amounts to when it comes to ones who have never said one positive thing about ADOS or can't say black without saying slave (since Mulay Ishmael, himself Hamria, reduced all blacks in Morocco to slavery despite censure from most imam) but always just rant and rage on with their obvious anti-black prejudices blaming the world's racial schema on they who had nothing to do with the formation and development of race science a white European idea forced onto the world.
It will be a grand day when like yellow, black is relegated to the dust bin as other than a relative complexion descriptor. However that's not going to happen because unlike E Asians, Africans have been integral ppls to Europeans since classical antiquity. Also the so-called caucasoids simply could not live without Africa's black ppls hence their massive importation either through bloody raids burning out villages killing the old, enslaving the young, and raping the females or direct purchase from those African blacks too strong to capture.
It is white America who invented Black or African American as a race. Be damned if I ever check that box. Why is there no White or European American box? Where is the Yellow or Asian American box. Likewise no Red or Native American box. A Brown box linked to geography is an impossibility. There is no history or culture or geography justifying anything like a Brown race. ADOS did not create this abhorent racial rubbish you caucasoids did it. So shut up already and steam in the stew your ppl created rather than act like it comes from any other of the world's ppls.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The assumption that she was non-royal simply because she wasn't a king's daughter is one that is all too common in Egyptology though some Egyptologists are realizing the significance of matrilineal kinship in ancient Egyptian culture. Only matrilineage can explain how on can have the title of "hereditary princess" without being a king's daughter and such is found throughout Egyptian dynastic families.
We know that by the late 18th dynasty there were many royal daughters and princesses not all of whom we have records of. We don't even know the identity of Tutankhamun's mother-- the Younger Lady-- other than that she was the full sister of his father whose identity as Akhenaten is also uncertain.
My guess is to legitimize their rule, the 19th dynasty and other dynasty kings married hereditary princesses.
This also explains the unusual craniometric trend among the 19th-21st dynasties, whereas the males tend to have very 'northern' profiles i.e. Coastal North African whereas the females had very 'southern' profiles. [See P.K.M.'s Data for New Kingdom Queens]
Again I am reminded of W.M.F. Petrie commenting how kings of the late New Kingdom "favored queens of inferior type".
I am open to the possibility of matrilineage having more importance in ancient Egyptian culture than Western Egyptologists have traditionally assumed, but isn't it usually the case that, in matrilineal societies, leadership gets passed down from maternal uncle to nephew instead of father to son? I normally see AE royal inheritance described as being passed down from father to son, as in a typical patrilineal society.
posted
^ It is not practiced everywhere. For example in Sweden race or skin color is not a part of any census, and neither is it written in peoples passports or other ID papers. It is usually not mentioned in police reports, or other kinds of judicial documents either.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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So shut up already and steam in the stew your ppl created rather than act like it comes from any other of the world's ppls.
Interesting though that African Americans have adopted a term that originally was devised to oppress them. Seems like they can not come up with some better identity label for themselves?
And what´s wrong with brown? That is actually the color most African Americans, and other dark skinned people have. Very few people are actually black.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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So shut up already and steam in the stew your ppl created rather than act like it comes from any other of the world's ppls.
Interesting though that African Americans have adopted a term that originally was devised to oppress them. Seems like they can not come up with some better identity label for themselves?
And what´s wrong with brown? That is actually the color most African Americans, and other dark skinned people have. Very few people are actually black.
What is the actual color of the people who call themselves white?
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Again for those who refused to hear it earlier or just want to deny it and believe they can dictate to a ppl what they should call themselves. You need direct your energies to admonish your ppl calling themselves white. You NW Euros are pink not white, go fim fam and futter with that why don't you.
ADOS embraced Black after centuries of being told black is ugly bestial etc. It was a big leap from ADOS straight razoring a fellow for calling one black to the triumphant call of James Brown's SAY IT LOUD I'M BLACK AND I'M PROUD. Nonetheless the term is a misnomer as even pink skinned blond haired blue eyed individuals have been forced to take on colooured negro black social identity. Why? All America's slaves weren't African. Even German's sometimes found themselves enslaved right along w/Afrs.
Sweden doesn't have enough nonNordic less lone non-white ppl to need a racial/color census nor does it have a history of involvemnt in forcefully importing Africans and/or Asians then discriminating against them to the point of hanging and castrating ppl due to racial hatred and fear. Get it? No, w/u it's in one ear out the other as this is like the 5th time you been told about this.
It's really disingenuous to bring up Sweden in any discussion of multi-ethnic/multi-racial matters.
quote:People also ask How racially diverse is Sweden? Is Sweden Culturally Diverse? Historically, Sweden was mainly ethnically homogenous. This means that most people in the country were ethnic Swedes. The only major minority group was the Sami, a Finno-Ugric people who live in the far north of Scandinavia.Dec 31, 2021
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: I am open to the possibility of matrilineage having more importance in ancient Egyptian culture than Western Egyptologists have traditionally assumed, but isn't it usually the case that, in matrilineal societies, leadership gets passed down from maternal uncle to nephew instead of father to son? I normally see AE royal inheritance described as being passed down from father to son, as in a typical patrilineal society.
Interesting point you bring up. The only thing that makes sense is that if BOTH parental lineages were applied. In fact in Egyptian culture sons were valued not only as protectors and leaders of the home but most importantly as maintainers of funerary rites and ancestor cults. The eldest son had the responsibility of funerary preparations for his parents and the cult of veneration for their departed spirits including the preservation of his father's name by uttering it in the rituals. The cult of the divine king was inextricably linked with the funerary cult of his death and succession by a son. Meanwhile records of land deeds show that familial lands and estates were passed from mother to daughter and women were responsible for cults of fertility that of themselves and the land they owned.
This is why I think royal incest developed as way of reconciling royal succession with family inheritance-- one patrilineal and the other matrilineal.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: This is why I think royal incest developed as way of reconciling royal succession with family inheritance-- one patrilineal and the other matrilineal.
That is as good a suggestion as any other in my opinion.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Your statement is a blatant lie so of course you can't cite a single post from me supporting your assertion.
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