posted
This topic is based on the paper The Origin of the Zimbabwean Civilization by R. Gayre of Gayre which is quite popular in white supremacist circles. The arguments raised in the paper seem convincing only if one is ignorant of African history and physical anthropology. I mean the first argument he presents which is one of the most absurd is that "Negroes" are incapable of irrigation technology and that only "Caucasoid" and "Mongoloid" peoples are capable of inventing such. Of course he includes Egyptians and Ethiopians in the former racial category, but he's apparently clueless about ancient Niger River Valley irrigation. A second significant argument is on the physical anthropology. He cites facial features of artifacts such as narrow faces and noses and skulls that are "non-negroid", so apparently he has never heard of the "Kaffir race" which is an outdated racial grouping similar to the "Hamitic race" except they inhabited southern Africa. One can still see the same leptoprosopic faces and leptorhine noses of modern Zulu and Xhosa.
So of course nobody takes the claims of this Gayre guy seriously except the typical Stormfront, American Renaissance losers and their South Afrikaner ilk. Rather I post this paper as an example par excellence that the white-wash of Africa does not end with North Africa or Egypt alone. The Horn especially Ethiopia is whitewashed and but so too is Tichitt Culture of Niger and so too Great Zimbabwe of Southern Africa. I have even heard rumors that the white losers are even claiming the Nok civilization of the Niger River Valley as also "Caucasoid"!
So you see, nowhere in Africa is safe from white-wash not even Sub-Sahara itself! So the lesson is if there's a civilization in Africa it must have been founded by Cacazoids. LOL
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Most important is to learn the positive history of the region than to protest against 50 yr old writings trying to revive old self serving overt Eurocentric colonialist bullshit.
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^ I appreciate the links Tukuler. Again, this is why the so-called "debate" or "battle" over the black identity of Egypt is just a microcosm of has been going on in Western academia for decades. No part of African soil is safe from the Euronut supremacists and I hope that even negrophobes like Antalas can see this.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I wince at belittling terms like Euronut or CACAzoids (which smarts no different than calling African blacks shitskins, caca and is from the old Latin cac=shit https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caca) and my battle best ignores supremacists like that Beur rather than give them a platform or a rep off of my name and well known writings.
I think somewhat like Haki Madhubuti co-founder of the Institute of Positive Education who teaches
quote:However, we must not define ourselves or our struggle on their evil. We can't build a movement on anti-white man, anti-capitalism or anti-Europe/America. No! We build on pro-black people, pro-Ujamaa (Co-operative economics), pro-Pan-Afrikanism, thus defining ourselves in the positive and not only giving direction by our definitions , but values--values that would not be evident if we define in the anti-tradition. Also by defining in the positive the negative is defined <<by dialectic>>. If we're for Co-Operative Economics we're by definition against anything opposed to that <<without explict naming each such thing>>. -1973-
.
Being Pinoy none of that applies to you but very much does so for the Transdisciplinary Black Scholar.
And forgive my straight forwardness of late. Been too ill to burn trees or consume edibles for more than a week now and, since the phony pandemic, can't find Marley's Mellow Mood tea on the supermarket shelves. So it's Tukuler al-Takruri UNCHAINED (er, off da chain and raging in pain).
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At least not many people outside hardcore White supremacist communities take the attempt to whitewash Great Zimbabwe seriously. If only ancient Egyptians and certain other ancient North Africans received the same courtesy.
posted
^ The white-washing of North Africa is much easier not only due to the longer tradition of it but also certain bio-anthropological traits of North Africans that make it easier to align them with Eurasians. But after North Africa comes the Horn, and after that comes the rest of East Africa as shown in Gayre's thesis which leads to Zimbabwe.
Let's not forget the paper that came out a couple years back on Khoisan having "Eurasian" ancestry. So Sub-Sahara is not off limits to white-washing.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: At least not many people outside hardcore White supremacist communities take the attempt to whitewash Great Zimbabwe seriously. If only ancient Egyptians and certain other ancient North Africans received the same courtesy.
I am sure you and Djehuti have noticed in confrontations with these people that they suffer extreme cognitive dissonance when you eviscerate or debunk their arguments. Its like a contrary view can't exist, like you driving a huge knife into their ribs or heart. I am surprised they are still peddling the old white Zimbabwe theory still, with "king Solomon's mines" Phoenicians flitting about the landscape to civilize the natives and show them how to build the Zimbabwe walls etc. I thought this had disappeared with the old South African pro-apartheid dinosaurs that pop up here and there. But then again the dissonance is too painful for many to bear.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The white-washing of North Africa is much easier not only due to the longer tradition of it but also certain bio-anthropological traits of North Africans that make it easier to align them with Eurasians. But after North Africa comes the Horn, and after that comes the rest of East Africa as shown in Gayre's thesis which leads to Zimbabwe.
Let's not forget the paper that came out a couple years back on Khoisan having "Eurasian" ancestry. So Sub-Sahara is not off limits to white-washing.
Both whites and blacks should stop obsessing over our regions. North africans are predominantly eurasian since the upper paleolithic and horners are between 40-50% eurasian; such type of ancestry is also found in the rest of east africa albeit in lower proportion.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The white-washing of North Africa is much easier not only due to the longer tradition of it but also certain bio-anthropological traits of North Africans that make it easier to align them with Eurasians. But after North Africa comes the Horn, and after that comes the rest of East Africa as shown in Gayre's thesis which leads to Zimbabwe.
Let's not forget the paper that came out a couple years back on Khoisan having "Eurasian" ancestry. So Sub-Sahara is not off limits to white-washing.
Both whites and blacks should stop obsessing over our regions. North africans are predominantly eurasian since the upper paleolithic and horners are between 40-50% eurasian; such type of ancestry is also found in the rest of east africa albeit in lower proportion.
15kya Morocco, Taforalt is E1b1b
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: but he's apparently clueless about ancient Niger River Valley irrigation. A second significant argument is on the physical anthropology. He cites facial features of artifacts such as narrow faces and noses and skulls that are "non-negroid", so apparently he has never heard of the "Kaffir race" which is an outdated racial grouping similar to the "Hamitic race" except they inhabited southern Africa. One can still see the same leptoprosopic faces and leptorhine noses of modern Zulu and Xhosa.
I have heard of basin irrigation in the Niger, do you guys have anything on this? Saw some commentary years ago but didn't get details. Also what links etc. do you have on the leptorhine noses of modern Zulu and Xhosa.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Both whites and blacks should stop obsessing over our regions.
It is whites who have been obsessing over Africa for well over a century especially North Africa but not just North Africa as I've clearly cited.
quote:North Africans are predominantly Eurasian since the upper paleolithic...
You keep repeating this same lie no matter how many times you have been debunked on countless threads in this forum and most recently here.
quote:..and Horners are between 40-50% Eurasian; such type of ancestry is also found in the rest of east africa albeit in lower proportion.
Another debunked lie. Y chromosome studies show that Populations of the Ethiopia-Eritrea region are 40% Eurasian namely Ethio-Semitic speakers and not any higher than that. But Eurasionuts like yourself love to exaggerate (lie about) that number and apply it to the entire Horn region. About 33% of Europeans have African ancestry and the percentage is higher in Southwest Asia but Eurasionuts like yourself always ignore that!
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] This topic is based on the paper The Origin of the Zimbabwean Civilization by R. Gayre of Gayre which is quite popular in white supremacist circles.
you exhuming this 1972 article from it's grave, to suggest it is even worth linking to and reading is to breathe new life into it
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: It is whites who have been obsessing over Africa for well over a century especially North Africa but not just North Africa as I've clearly cited.
Today there are far more blacks obsessing over north africa than whites. We're constantly harassed by afrocentrists while encounter with eurocentrists are much more rare.
Examples like this are common :
I know no whites who larp as north african like that.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: You keep repeating this same lie no matter how many times you have been debunked on countless threads in this forum and most recently here.
It has never been "debunked" this is simply factual :
quote:"To demonstrate that IAM has a Levantine origin, rather than a local origin in Africa, we tested f4(IAM, Chimp; Levantine population, African population), with the Levantine population being BedouinB, Levant_N or Natufian, and the African population being Jo’hoan North, Mbuti, Mota or Yoruba. All comparisons are positive, with high significant Z scores, indicating IAM is more related to Levantine than to African populations (Table S10.1). "
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Another debunked lie. Y chromosome studies show that Populations of the Ethiopia-Eritrea region are 40% Eurasian namely Ethio-Semitic speakers and not any higher than that. But Eurasionuts like yourself love to exaggerate (lie about) that number and apply it to the entire Horn region. About 33% of Europeans have African ancestry and the percentage is higher in Southwest Asia but Eurasionuts like yourself always ignore that!
Y chromosome are not autosomal results. By autosomal, Horners are overall 40-50% west eurasian :
Nobody cares about eurasians having a few % of "african" ancestry that's not comparable to north africans being predominantly eurasian genetically and horners scoring 40/50 % of it.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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A thread about Great Zimbabwe of all places had to turn into another conversation about the "Blackness" of North and Northeast Africans, all because of our resident Frenchman and his insecurities. Sheesh.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: It is whites who have been obsessing over Africa for well over a century especially North Africa but not just North Africa as I've clearly cited.
Today there are far more blacks obsessing over north africa than whites. We're constantly harassed by afrocentrists while encounter with eurocentrists are much more rare.
Yet here you are posting screenshots and sharing your opinion of these black people on this forum. Why are you so invested in what black people think? This tells me your greatest fear is what black people are saying is true. How are people like you being harassed?
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Mighty Mack: Yet here you are posting screenshots and sharing your opinion of these black people on this forum. Why are you so invested in what black people think? This tells me your greatest fear is what black people are saying is true. How are people like you being harassed? [/QB]
Literally 3/4 of posts about north africa on the internet are filled with blacks spamming their afrocentrist theories and their racism towards north africans and you dare to ask me why I react ?
Just type "ancient egypt" on IG and see the comment section of any picture you want; same on twitter, youtube, fb, etc So it's not about "caring about what black people think" it's about fighting racism and cultural/historical appropriation.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
this thread is not about ancient Azania this thread about white baiting/bashing and fueling beef between certain ES members
nobody's learning shite about Africa bodies are learning 50 yr old white supremacy and how to invite nobody know nothings to spar using SE African civilizations as a foil/snare
it look like active ES members couldn't give a good shite about actual African Studies
inactive members truly interested in Africana have given up hope and quit posting
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: This topic is based on the paper The Origin of the Zimbabwean Civilization by R. Gayre of Gayre which is quite popular in white supremacist circles. The arguments raised in the paper seem convincing only if one is ignorant of African history and physical anthropology. I mean the first argument he presents which is one of the most absurd is that "Negroes" are incapable of irrigation technology and that only "Caucasoid" and "Mongoloid" peoples are capable of inventing such. Of course he includes Egyptians and Ethiopians in the former racial category, but he's apparently clueless about ancient Niger River Valley irrigation. A second significant argument is on the physical anthropology. He cites facial features of artifacts such as narrow faces and noses and skulls that are "non-negroid", so apparently he has never heard of the "Kaffir race" which is an outdated racial grouping similar to the "Hamitic race" except they inhabited southern Africa. One can still see the same leptoprosopic faces and leptorhine noses of modern Zulu and Xhosa.
So of course nobody takes the claims of this Gayre guy seriously except the typical Stormfront, American Renaissance losers and their South Afrikaner ilk. Rather I post this paper as an example par excellence that the white-wash of Africa does not end with North Africa or Egypt alone. The Horn especially Ethiopia is whitewashed and but so too is Tichitt Culture of Niger and so too Great Zimbabwe of Southern Africa. I have even heard rumors that the white losers are even claiming the Nok civilization of the Niger River Valley as also "Caucasoid"!
So you see, nowhere in Africa is safe from white-wash not even Sub-Sahara itself! So the lesson is if there's a civilization in Africa it must have been founded by Cacazoids. LOL
True. But the larger context is that the colonial era was all about "exploration" for Europeans to go out and "discover" and "redefine" history, identity and culture in a way to elevant the European in world history and contemporary affairs. Stealing land, artifacts, people, resources and anything of value, including history itself all is part of the colonial system. This is why these histories of Africa are for the most part written by Europeans and this is based on but a small part of all the loot they have stolen from Africa over hundreds of years. Unfortunately the biggest problem is getting Africans to want to tell their own history instead of allowing others to do it.
Good video on this from African brother on youtube:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: African Studies is in part about raising consciousness of Africa(ns) at home and abroad for those who want to learn.
I second this post.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The white-washing of North Africa is much easier not only due to the longer tradition of it but also certain bio-anthropological traits of North Africans that make it easier to align them with Eurasians. But after North Africa comes the Horn, and after that comes the rest of East Africa as shown in Gayre's thesis which leads to Zimbabwe.
Let's not forget the paper that came out a couple years back on Khoisan having "Eurasian" ancestry. So Sub-Sahara is not off limits to white-washing.
Both whites and blacks should stop obsessing over our regions. North africans are predominantly eurasian since the upper paleolithic and horners are between 40-50% eurasian; such type of ancestry is also found in the rest of east africa albeit in lower proportion.
That models as Eurasia as a subset of Africa. Africa is Eurasia+
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The white-washing of North Africa is much easier not only due to the longer tradition of it but also certain bio-anthropological traits of North Africans that make it easier to align them with Eurasians. But after North Africa comes the Horn, and after that comes the rest of East Africa as shown in Gayre's thesis which leads to Zimbabwe.
Let's not forget the paper that came out a couple years back on Khoisan having "Eurasian" ancestry. So Sub-Sahara is not off limits to white-washing.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: It is whites who have been obsessing over Africa for well over a century especially North Africa but not just North Africa as I've clearly cited.
Today there are far more blacks obsessing over north africa than whites. We're constantly harassed by afrocentrists while encounter with eurocentrists are much more rare.
Examples like this are common :
I know no whites who larp as north african like that.
Wow. We learn that anyone who posts vacation pics of some black people posing next to some pyramids or a hotel are undertaking this huge campaign of "harassment"?
Really? One wonders where are these massive numbers of suffering "north africans" complaining about this "harassment"? With such a dastardly conspiracy going on, there should be many credible links showing the north african "sufferahs" enduring "constant" harassment. Strangely nothing credible showing this mass campaign ha been offered. Guess pics of black people on vacation qualify as "harassment."
And some say "far more blacks obsessing"? Really? All this from 2-3 vacation pics? Who are these "obsessing blacks?" If there was such a campaign against north africans" it should be easily able to demonstrate it with SPECIFIC examples of the mass campaign. But we know the old troll angle playing.. Like ""white nord" used to play.. lol
Pause. Wait for standard furious "denial" and so on.. Wait for Anglo's old "Hamitic Union" to put in an appearance... Cue dupe account "replies" and so on... lmao..
^^The woman above posed for a vacation snapshot and then talk about her hotel and a few drinks. This is part of the "black harassment" campaign?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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@zaharan Why do you purposely omit the fact they explicitly claim those civilisations ? And you think I'll spam hundreds of pictures ? You maybe need something like this ? :
Like I said you can check any photo of artifacts from ancient or medieval north africa and you'll see comments like this :
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LOL you are just trolling. Simply because someone "posts" a "tweet" (and that someone could be trolling as well, which Instagram, Facebook etc is famous for) does not constitute a black "harassment campaign" against "North Africans." You aren't fooling anyone with Your own manufactured "outrage" campaign. But carry on nevertheless...
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Yet here you are posting screenshots and sharing your opinion of these black people on this forum. Why are you so invested in what black people think? This tells me your greatest fear is what black people are saying is true. How are people like you being harassed?
Apparently TRUTH harasses him.
Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues A-M Mekota1 and M Vermehren2 Department of Biology I, Biodiversity Research/Anthropology, Ludwig-Maximilians University, Munich, Germany Skin sections showed particularly good tissue preservation, although cellular outlines were never distinct. Although much of the epidermis had already separated from the dermis, the remaining epidermis often was preserved well (Fig. 1). The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin. In the dermis, the hair follicles, hair, and sebaceous and sweat glands were readily apparent (Fig. 2). Blood vessels, but no red blood cells, and small peripheral nerves were identified unambiguously (Fig. 3). The subcutaneous layer showed loose connective tissue fibers attached to the dermis, and fat cell remnants were observed. To evaluate the influence of post-mortum tissue decay by micro-organisms, the samples were tested for the presence of fungi using silver staining
Old Kingdom
Middle Kingdom
New Kingdom
(^when this portrait was originally posted Antalas claimed it was a modern 'Afrocentric' fake LOL)
modern Egyptians
^ And yes the above men are natives to the Giza area NOT Aswan or anywhere near the Sudan! LOL
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Has there ever been a genetic study comparing lower-class Egyptians (aka baladi or fellahin) from their upper-class compatriots? ES veterans might remember an article by an Egyptian writer (I forgot his name, unfortunately) observing that lower-class Egyptians tend to have darker skin and more indigenous (African) cultural traits than the upper-class ones, and there is that old Lucotte paper comparing the frequency of certain haplogroups in Lower versus Upper Egypt, but I haven't seen a paper describing a significant genetic difference between Egyptians of different social strata. It would be interesting to see if, regardless of location, rural and lower-class Egyptians tend to have more indigenous African ancestry than the urban upper class.
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And as far as harassment goes...while it's never OK to bully or harass someone for their racial or ethnic background, I can vouch from years of personal experience that North African ethno-nationalists (whether Egyptian or Maghrebi) are every bit as prone to harassing behavior as the hoteps they whine about. And they often aren't subtle about their racist motivations, either. Andumbass himself is no stranger to that behavior. So he and his buddies can cry me a river of (off-) white tears about those mean Afrocentrics.
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^ It's called the hypocritical crybully phenomenon. You have North Africans like the Egyptians be appallingly racist to Africans from further south (even if its within their own country) but when they enter Europe and get called 'black' or 'darky' or worse, complain about white racism. It's similar to how in North America Mexicans complain about racism towards them and the phrase "dirty Mexican" or stereotypes about them being dumb or backwards while in Mexico it's not uncommon to hear derogatory talk about Hispanics from Central America being called names like "Guatemalteco sucio" (dirty Guatemalan) or "Nicas tontos" (dumb Nicaraguans). So it's hypocrisy at its ridiculousness.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Has there ever been a genetic study comparing lower-class Egyptians (aka baladi or fellahin) from their upper-class compatriots? ES veterans might remember an article by an Egyptian writer (I forgot his name, unfortunately) observing that lower-class Egyptians tend to have darker skin and more indigenous (African) cultural traits than the upper-class ones, and there is that old Lucotte paper comparing the frequency of certain haplogroups in Lower versus Upper Egypt, but I haven't seen a paper describing a significant genetic difference between Egyptians of different social strata. It would be interesting to see if, regardless of location, rural and lower-class Egyptians tend to have more indigenous African ancestry than the urban upper class.
I think we did at least several threads on the topic. There are more genetic differences between Egyptians of different regions than from different classes though even with this there are certain exceptions. I presume that Bohari (northern) Baladi communities that are somewhat insulated with almost no intermarriage with outsiders are genetically going to be more similar to Sa'idi Baladi who have similar traditions of social isolation. Also certain classes, mainly the upper crest Afrangi are not even Arab let alone Baladi but have family origins from Syria, Turkey, and even Circassian (Caucasus Mountains) even if they're Muslim like most Arab Egyptians. And or course the Greek Copts of Alexandria will differ from other Copts from more rural areas.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ It's called the hypocritical crybully phenomenon. You have North Africans like the Egyptians be appallingly racist to Africans from further south (even if its within their own country) but when they enter Europe and get called 'black' or 'darky' or worse, complain about white racism. It's similar to how in North America Mexicans complain about racism towards them and the phrase "dirty Mexican" or stereotypes about them being dumb or backwards while in Mexico it's not uncommon to hear derogatory talk about Hispanics from Central America being called names like "Guatemalteco sucio" (dirty Guatemalan) or "Nicas tontos" (dumb Nicaraguans). So it's hypocrisy at its ridiculousness.
That is indeed a thing, but I was thinking more in terms of the "white tears" phenomenon, which (as I understand it) is when someone from a relatively privileged group acts like a more disadvantaged group is somehow oppressing or discriminating against them. A Japanese person in Japan complaining about Koreans hating on Japanese people, when ethnic Japanese clearly occupy a dominant position over Koreans in that country, would be one example of this trend. The way Andumbass speaks about how Black people relate to North Africans, despite the well-documented phenomenon of anti-Blackness in Arabized North African communities, would be another.
That said, racism and ethnic chauvinism can and do travel in all directions. I don't think any form of those are OK, even if some groups arguably occupy a more advantaged position in their respective societies than others.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ It's called the hypocritical crybully phenomenon. You have North Africans like the Egyptians be appallingly racist to Africans from further south (even if its within their own country) but when they enter Europe and get called 'black' or 'darky' or worse, complain about white racism. It's similar to how in North America Mexicans complain about racism towards them and the phrase "dirty Mexican" or stereotypes about them being dumb or backwards while in Mexico it's not uncommon to hear derogatory talk about Hispanics from Central America being called names like "Guatemalteco sucio" (dirty Guatemalan) or "Nicas tontos" (dumb Nicaraguans). So it's hypocrisy at its ridiculousness.
That is indeed a thing, but I was thinking more in terms of the "white tears" phenomenon, which (as I understand it) is when someone from a relatively privileged group acts like a more disadvantaged group is somehow oppressing or discriminating against them. A Japanese person in Japan complaining about Koreans hating on Japanese people, when ethnic Japanese clearly occupy a dominant position over Koreans in that country, would be one example of this trend. The way Andumbass speaks about how Black people relate to North Africans, despite the well-documented phenomenon of anti-Blackness in Arabized North African communities, would be another.
That said, racism and ethnic chauvinism can and do travel in all directions. I don't think any form of those are OK, even if some groups arguably occupy a more advantaged position in their respective societies than others.
You talk as if racism wasn't universal. That there is anti-blackness in North Africa doesn't mean harassement and the afrocentric pov should be tolerated the latter being a clearly racist ideology.
Also I don't see how I'm supposed to be more "advantaged" than AAs or blacks in Europe ?? You're also clearly naive if you think an "arab" like me can't be victim of racism in SSA. Anyway my point wasn't to cry but to show that there is indeed harassement, obsession and racism unlike what many members here believe (about afrocentrists being a fringe minority and quiet group on the internet).
and this perfectly sum up my opinion :
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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^ This from the ignoramus who thinks every black/dark-skinned Egyptian is from "the Sudanese border" and then posts pictures of Afrangi claiming them to be indigenous! LOL
But getting back to the topic, I remember years back in university coming across info on ancient irrigation systems of West Africa used in the Niger River and its tributaries.
Here is some info on ancient irrigation systems of southern Africa:
ABSTRACT Lani van Vuuren describes how ancestors were closely attached with water with early southern African communities using irrigation technologies to manipulate water to survive and thrive in a harsh land. Irrigation technologies were practiced by Iron Age communities unearthed in southern Africa, which include the sites at Nyanga in eastern Zimbabwe, the Limpopo River catchment area, the Lowveld and the Drakensberg escarpment region of Mpumalanga and KwaZulu-Natal. The site contains numerous old aqueducts with some being 3,2 km or more in length, running from artificial-dams on the mountain streams, and crossing from hill-to-hill. The retaining walls of terraces were seldom more than 0,6 m and were built from stones that had been cleared when the lands were prepared. The best regional example of pre-colonial irrigation technology is to be found in the Nyanga district in the north-eastern part of Zimbabwe, where a veritable archaeological treasure trove was discovered.
posted
In this context one must remember that not only white fringe groups are out there spreading false and misleading information. Also fringe groups among Black Americans are doing the same, but with Native Americans as victims.
There are actually some propagandists and pseudohistorians among Black Americans who do not want Native Americans to have their history in peace but who try to distort it and take credit for Native achievements.
Black pseudo historians spew a lot of rubbish about Black Olmecs and similar. Seems they are hellbent on trying to erase Native Americans out of history.
Here are a couple of earlier threads here on ES that adress how they try to spread misinformation about Native cultures and distort the past.
One can argue that these amateur pseudo historians are just a small fringe group, but still their propaganda have become annoying for some Native Americans who feel that they already lost everything to invaders and now their very history and connection to the continent they have lived on for thousands of years is questioned.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: In this context one must remember that not only white fringe groups are out there spreading false and misleading information. Also fringe groups among Black Americans are doing the same, but with Native Americans as victims.
There are actually some propagandists and pseudohistorians among Black Americans who do not want Native Americans to have their history in peace but who try to distort it and take credit for Native achievements.
Black pseudo historians spew a lot of rubbish about Black Olmecs and similar. Seems they are hellbent on trying to erase Native Americans out of history.
Here are a couple of earlier threads here on ES that adress how they try to spread misinformation about Native cultures and distort the past.
One can argue that these amateur pseudo historians are just a small fringe group, but still their propaganda have become annoying for some Native Americans who feel that they already lost everything to invaders and now their very history and connection to the continent they have lived on for thousands of years is questioned.
This is my contribution, pertaining American soil.
quote:Paying to Play Indian: The Dawes Rolls and the Legacy of $5 Indians
Paying a commissioner $5 could get an opportunistic white person on the Dawes Rolls 125 years ago, which still causes problems for tribes today.
It may be fashionable to play Indian now, but it was also trendy 125 years ago when people paid $5 apiece for falsified documents declaring them Native on the Dawes Rolls.
These so-called five-dollar Indians paid government agents under the table in order to reap the benefits that came with having Indian blood. Mainly white men with an appetite for land, five-dollar Indians paid to register on the Dawes Rolls, earning fraudulent enrollment in tribes along with benefits inherited by generations to come.
“These were opportunistic white men who wanted access to land or food rations,” said Gregory Smithers, associate professor of history at Virginia Commonwealth University. “These were people who were more than happy to exploit the Dawes Commission—and government agents, for $5, were willing to turn a blind eye to the graft and corruption.”
The Dawes Commission, established in 1893 to enforce the General Allotment Act of 1887 (or the Dawes Act), was charged with convincing tribes to cede their land to the United States and divide remaining land into individual allotments. The commission also required Indians to claim membership in only one tribe and register on the Dawes Rolls, what the government meant to be a definitive record of individuals with Indian blood.
The Curtis Act, passed in 1898, targeted the Five Civilized Tribes (Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek and Seminole), forcing them to accept allotments and register on the Dawes Rolls. The two acts—which came during a “period of murky social context” after the Civil War when white and black men were intermarrying with Native American women, aimed to help the government keep track of “real” Indians while accelerating efforts to assimilate Indian people into white culture, Smithers said.
“By 1865, African Americans and white Americans were moving into the Midwest, into the Indian and Oklahoma territories, all vying for some patch of land they could call their own and live out their Jeffersonian view of independence,” he said. “The federal government poured a lot of effort and energy into the Dawes Commission, but at the same time it was very hard for both Native and American governments to keep track of who was who.”
The Dawes Commission set up tents in Indian Territory, said Bill Welge, director emeritus of the Oklahoma Historical Society’s Office of American Indian Culture and Preservation. There, field clerks scoured written records, took oral testimony and generated enrollment cards for individuals determined to have Indian blood.
That included authentic Indians, Welge said. But it also included lots of people with questionable heritage.
“Commissioners took advantage of their positions and enrolled people who had very minimal or questionable connections to the tribes,” he said. “They were not adverse to taking money under the table.”
The Dawes Commission, established in 1893 to enforce the General Allotment Act of 1887 (or the Dawes Act), was charged with convincing tribes to cede their land to the United States and divide remaining land into individual allotments. The commission also required Indians to claim membership in only one tribe and register on the Dawes Rolls.
The implications of such shady practices are enormous now, Smithers said. Five-dollar Indians passed their unearned benefits to heirs who still lay claim to tribal citizenship and associated privileges.
“Now we have people who are white but who can trace their names back to the rolls used by tribal nations to ascertain who has rights as citizens,” he said. “That means we have white people who have the ability to vote at large; it means political rights; it means the potential to influence tribal policy on a whole range of issues; it means people have access to health care, education and employment. The implications are quite profound for people who got away with fraud.”
On the flip side, while non-Natives paid to play Indian, many authentic Indians who didn’t trust the government chose not to register with the Dawes Rolls at all, said Gene Norris, a genealogist at the Cherokee National Historical Society. That means people with legitimate claims to tribal enrollment and the benefits are now excluded.
“Native Americans are the only racial group defined by blood,” Norris said. “Even that was arbitrary. In the 1890s, siblings who talked to different commissioners emerged with different blood quantum. Because they didn’t apply together, some of them have different blood degrees.”
In short, the Dawes Rolls forever changed the way the federal government defined Indians—and, in many cases, the way Indians still define themselves.
In 1900, one woman registered on the rolls with 1/256 Cherokee blood, Norris said. Now, some enrolled members of the Cherokee Nation have as little as 1/8,196 Indian blood.
The Dawes Rolls—even now—are a murky and “very inaccurate” gauge of Indian citizenship, he said. In the 2000 Census, the number of people claiming Cherokee ancestry was three times that of official tribal enrollment.
“That’s what happens when the federal government established the rules, not the Natives,” he said.
Smithers has no estimate of the number of people who fraudulently registered on the Dawes Rolls—or who lay false claim to Indian citizenship now. But five-dollar Indians did not represent an isolated case of appropriation.
“What we had was simply white people claiming to be Indian,” he said. “They were early wannabes, just like we have today. Five-dollar Indian is just another term for that.”
Afrocentrism is known as Africana. It's clear you don't know what this curriculum is about. Africana has fought back against white supremacy and with that Eurocentrism. It has put African history in it's popper African context.
Of course you don't know this as an online babble box.
On that note, you are a bootlicker who is subjugated to Arabcentrism.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Yeah, there are both whites and blacks that "play indians" in one or another way. And fakes and cultural appropriation is rather common in many contexts.
I made the comment since the OP discussed some fringe white people claiming Great Zimbabwe as a White city (an old and outdated narrative descending from colonial times. It was rather popular during the time of the White rule in Zimbabwe, at that time called Rhodesia).
But as i mentioned also fringe groups of Blacks distort history and claim heritage that is not theirs. I have spoken with several Native Americans that see it as a sort of attack on their history and cultural integrity. It is perhaps fringe groups, but their activities still affect Native Americans, since they are already marginalized in the American society. The worst is when such narratives are sneaked into schools and even into academic papers. Children have difficulties to discern what is factual and what is just made up stuff, so it is rather imperative that such distortions not become a part of school curriculum.
Also some Native Americans are afraid that some American politicians would come to embrace such ideas which could in worst case scenarios affect political decisions concerning land rights and similar.
It is really a bit sad that also some Black people would resort to such fakehood, since Black people themselves often have been affected by it, as in the case of Great Zimbabwe. One can wonder why some of them would repeat the mistakes of history.
Great Zimbabwe in Zimbabwe, and La Venta in Mexico, both used by people who want to distort history.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Yeah, there are both whites and blacks that "play indians" in one or another way. And fakes and cultural appropriation is rather common in many contexts.
A few Black Americans claim Indian ancestry, and somehow that equates to 5 dollar white pretendians, who steal billions of dollars from actual Indians. lol ok dudeo ok.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I made the comment since the OP discussed some fringe white people claiming Great Zimbabwe as a White city (an old and outdated narrative descending from colonial times. It was rather popular during the time of the White rule in Zimbabwe, at that time called Rhodesia).
Whites violently took Zimbabwe and claimed all accomplishments, not just there but all over the globe. Of course it was illogical.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: But as i mentioned also fringe groups of Blacks distort history and claim heritage that is not theirs. I have spoken with several Native Americans that see it as a sort of attack on their history and cultural integrity. It is perhaps fringe groups, but their activities still affect Native Americans, since they are already marginalized in the American society. The worst is when such narratives are sneaked into schools and even into academic papers. Children have difficulties to discern what is factual and what is just made up stuff, so it is rather imperative that such distortions not become a part of school curriculum.
What you don't seem to grasp is that these Black peoples historically lineage was distorted. The lineage, history and language was cut off by laws. Do you have any idea what this means and what the impact of this has been on a people. As ridiculous as it is what some Black Americans claim, we can't blame them for these conditions.
I think a by fr bigger issue is the white pretentians who steal billions of dollars from the actual Indians.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Also some Native Americans are afraid that some American politicians would come to embrace such ideas which could in worst case scenarios affect political decisions concerning land rights and similar.
It is really a bit sad that also some Black people would resort to such fakehood, since Black people themselves often have been affected by it, as in the case of Great Zimbabwe. One can wonder why some of them would repeat the mistakes of history.
Great Zimbabwe in Zimbabwe, and La Venta in Mexico, both used by people who want to distort history.
This is a nonsense comparison. One group violently took a land and claimed the history and accomplishments of that land.
The other was expounded by Europeans, where they claimed it was originally by Africas. It was not Black people who created this narrative. But as always Black should be blamed. Go focus on the white men who started with this narrative.
You are good at one thing and this is altering narratives aka lying.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The white-washing of North Africa is much easier not only due to the longer tradition of it but also certain bio-anthropological traits of North Africans that make it easier to align them with Eurasians. But after North Africa comes the Horn, and after that comes the rest of East Africa as shown in Gayre's thesis which leads to Zimbabwe.
Let's not forget the paper that came out a couple years back on Khoisan having "Eurasian" ancestry. So Sub-Sahara is not off limits to white-washing.
Both whites and blacks should stop obsessing over our regions. North africans are predominantly eurasian since the upper paleolithic and horners are between 40-50% eurasian; such type of ancestry is also found in the rest of east africa albeit in lower proportion.
15kya Morocco, Taforalt is E1b1b
That was equal to an uppercut. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @zaharan Why do you purposely omit the fact they explicitly claim those civilisations ? And you think I'll spam hundreds of pictures ? You maybe need something like this ? :
Like I said you can check any photo of artifacts from ancient or medieval north africa and you'll see comments like this :
quote: Originally posted by Ish Geber: A few Black Americans claim Indian ancestry, and somehow that equates to 5 dollar white pretendians, who steal billions of dollars from actual Indians. lol ok dudeo ok.
What you don't seem to grasp is that these Black peoples historically lineage was distorted. The lineage, history and language was cut off by laws. Do you have any idea what this means and what the impact of this has been on a people. As ridiculous as it is what some Black Americans claim, we can't blame them for these conditions.
I think a by fr bigger issue is the white pretentians who steal billions of dollars from the actual Indians. ----- This is a nonsense comparison. One group violently took a land and claimed the history and accomplishments of that land.
The other was expounded by Europeans, where they claimed it was originally by Africas. It was not Black people who created this narrative. But as always Black should be blamed. Go focus on the white men who started with this narrative.
You are good at one thing and this is altering narratives aka lying.
Obviously some Native Americans see it as a problem having their history distorted, whatever you think of it. Seems you are overly sensitive to any criticism of Black people, you always have something to complain about. Seems you see Black Americans as some kind of innocent victims who are so traumatized by past events that some of them can not think clearly, and just loose themselves in all kind of fantasies.
The comparison is valid even if intention and impact was different. But fakery is fakery whether whites or blacks are behind it. And as I said, if some Native Americans are worried about it, it is a problem for them. Remember that also Native Americans have a rather traumatic history behind them, which can increase their suspicion about people from other groups trying to hijack their past.
And in todays world Zimbabwe is not a colony anymore so one can instead compare with the fringe white groups that still claim that Zimbabwe was a white civilisation.
And yes white pretendians is also a problem, but one can actually adress more than one problem at the same time.
Native Americans have many problems and this is just one of them, but still it is a nuisance to some of them.
Native Americans are a small and often marginalized group. So it is weird that the producers of the fakery target them. Better they claim European culture which probably is not seen as some threat by most Europeans.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Fortunately also some African Americans are getting tired of the fakery and pseudo history and react against it. Maybe that has a greater impact than if the criticism comes from white people or Native Americans.
Some of the proponents of the fakery are obviously somewhat disturbed, but others like Greg Wiggan, a well educated man who tried to sneak in the Black Olmec narrative into an academic paper ought to know better.
This podcast made by a historian and an archaeologists with Native background also adresses the problem. Among others the retracted article by Greg Wiggan (who conveys the Black Olmec narrative) in an Academic Journal is discussed.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Obviously some Native Americans see it as a problem having their history distorted, whatever you think of it.
Black Americans always have been critical of the 5 dollar white pretendians. They way have called out the lie that Christopher Columbusis the founder of America. So yeah. I agree here.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Seems you are overly sensitive to any criticism of Black people, you always have something to complain about. Seems you see Black Americans as some kind of innocent victims who are so traumatized by past events that some of them can not think clearly, and just loose themselves in all kind of fantasies.
What criticism are you talking about when it pertains Black people?
Black Americans are traumatized victims, it's not what I seem to think. It's a historical well documented fact! So yeah, there is a lot to complain about. What do you think would happen to a people being subjected to racism and injustices generation after generation?
quote:Consequently, the Black community, in particular, is at significantly increased risk of developing a mental health issue due to historical, economic, social, political influences that systemically expose the Black community to factors known to be damaging to psychological and physical health. Research consistently shows that these disparities are not a new phenomenon and have been present for generations. Historically, the Black community was and continues to be disadvantaged in mental health through subjection to trauma through enslavement, oppression, colonialism, racism, and segregation. A growing body of research suggests that traumatic experiences can cause profound biological changes in the person experiencing the traumatic event. Cutting edge researchers are also beginning to understand how these physiological changes are genetically encoded and passed down to future generations. These findings suggest that in addition to the cultural and psychological inheritance of trauma, intergenerational trauma may be passed down biologically from one generation to the next.
quote:"American jurisprudence and law have profoundly shaped, defined, and constrained the lives of Black people for over 400 years. Racial inequality has extremely deep roots in American society, and our Constitution, statutes, court cases, and regulations not only bear witness to this, but are often the source of it Black Americans and the LawBlack American timeline provides an overview of some of these laws, beginning with the first known case marking the legal difference between Africans and Europeans in 1640 in Virginia, and continuing with laws recently introduced in the wake of the killing of George Floyd and other Black Americans. While not exhaustive, the timeline focuses on a number of key legal events and actions that have structured and systematized racism in America".
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The comparison is valid even if intention and impact was different. But fakery is fakery whether whites or blacks are behind it. And as I said, if some Native Americans are worried about it, it is a problem for them. Remember that also Native Americans have a rather traumatic history behind them, which can increase their suspicion about people from other groups trying to hijack their past.
What comparisons are you talking about and what is supposedly fair about what?
Show me the images and articles of these Native Americans you are talking about.
Lastly, Black people are behind what fakery exactly?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: And in todays world Zimbabwe is not a colony anymore so one can instead compare with the fringe white groups that still claim that Zimbabwe was a white civilisation.
Why are you comparing Zimbabwe with what is going on in America with Black Americans? Black Americans who have been in America for over 400 years. Black Americans have only one place to compare and this is the place they have been instrumental in building for hundreds of years. Most Black Americans by far never claimed that they have origin in the Americas. Of course you don't know this since you don't know any Black Americans. You only know them from online social media outlets.
The old civilization of Zimbabwe was already there long before and pasty people entered that region.
One deals with some people online making claims, while the other dealt with white people in scholarship creating false narratives attempting to steal a history that clearly was not theirs to do.
How do you even come up to mash these two together?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: And yes white pretendians is also a problem, but one can actually adress more than one problem at the same time.
What other problem are you talking about? Some individuals who claim to have been in the Americas for thousands of years? It's probably something like 1% who claim this. Some indeed have admixture as well. As is documented by historical events.
There are well known Americans who had mixture of both Native American and African.
The First Census of the United States (1790).
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Native Americans have many problems and this is just one of them, but still it is a nuisance to some of them.
Nobody here is saying Native Americans have no problems. I acknowledged that the biggest problem, the elephant in the room is the 5 dollar white pretendians who steal billions of dollars from the actual Indians. If this problem is solved it means all these billions can be streamlined to the actual Indians.
My suggestion to you is, go invest time into dismantling the 5 dollar white pretendians who steal billions of dollars from the actual Indians.
That willl solve 99% of Native American problems.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Native Americans are a small and often marginalized group.
Yes, Native Americans are a small and often marginalized group. How many Native Americans are there in total (without the white 5 dollar pretendians)?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: So it is weird that the producers of the fakery target them. Better they claim European culture which probably is not seen as some threat by most Europeans.
Not sure what you mean, perhaps you can elaborate?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Fortunately also some African Americans are getting tired of the fakery and pseudo history and react against it. Maybe that has a greater impact than if the criticism comes from white people or Native Americans.
Some of the proponents of the fakery are obviously somewhat disturbed, but others like Greg Wiggan, a well educated man who tried to sneak in the Black Olmec narrative into an academic paper ought to know better.
Some? The vast MAJORITY of Black Americans reject the notion to always have been native to the Americas as Indians. It's clear you have no idea what you are talking about.
But who made these? Was it Black Americans? I ask so, to understand the correlation to the 5 dollar pretendians.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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This podcast made by a historian and an archaeologists with Native background also adresses the problem. Among others the retracted article by Greg Wiggan (who conveys the Black Olmec narrative) in an Academic Journal is discussed.
Whites wrote this and somehow it's "Afrocentric"? Sir ma'am, it, you have mental issues.
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin.
quote:The last detailed discussions and critiques of this general idea (J. Comas, 1972, 1973) bolstered my anthropological findings (A. Wiercinski, 1974) particularly in regard to the presence of Negroid components among Olmec groups. In Almogaren III, Z. Krzak (1972: The problem of reconstruc ting an Afro-Iberian Ship from the Neolithic Age) proved the possibility of sufficient megalithic navigational skill to allow for the voyages necessary to establish the validity of the hypothesis.
quote:It is strange that some people still believe that all the Negroid images in this book were “accidental” creations of the American “Indians.” A severe blow to this erroneous belief was given during the XLI International Congress of Americanists in Mexico (September 1974) by Andrzej Wiercinski, the well-known craniologist from the University of Warsaw. Dr. Wiercinski was kind enough to lend me the manuscript of his contribution to the Congress, which I included in my paper also read at the Congress. Wiercinski says:
It appeared that some of the skulls from Tlatilco, Cerro de las Mesas and Monte Alban (all pre-Classic sites in Mexico) show, to a different degree, a clear prevalence of the total Negroid pattern that has been evidenced by the use of two methods: a) multivariate distance analysis of average characteristics of individual fractions distinguished cranioscopically; b) analysis of frequency distributions of Mean Index of the position between combinations of racial varieties.
(Alexander von Wuthenau, Unexpected Faces In Ancient America The Historical Testimony Of Pre Columbian Artists 1500 B C A D 1500)
quote:To commemorate Mexico’s assistance to Ethiopia during its occupation by Italy; Ethiopia named a center square in Addis Ababa “Mexico Square”. In 2010, the Mexican government donated a replica of an Olmec colossal head to Ethiopia where it was placed in Mexico Square. On the 22nd of June, 1954, a traffic circle in Mexico City was named “Plaza Etiopía”, under which in August 1980, a metro station in Mexico City was built and named Metro Etiopía
Indeed it was whites who started the narrative. Blacks just followed suit. But note that this theory of African origins was based solely on facial features.
Gee, this sounds awfully familiar...
It sounds a lot like the theory that Egyptians were white/caucasoids based on their facial features.
It comes to show you can't judge a peoples' ancestry by their features alone.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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"Phony Pandemic"? I find much cultural/historical information on this site yet you say COVID-19 is not a real disease? Mask wearing & vaccinations are just for entertainment purposes.
-------------------- Tehutimes Posts: 115 | From: north america | Registered: Jan 2014
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quote:Some? [Big Grin] The vast MAJORITY of Black Americans reject the notion to always have been native to the Americas as Indians. [Roll Eyes] It's clear you have no idea what you are talking about. [Cool]
But who made these? Was it Black Americans? I ask so, to understand the correlation to the 5 dollar pretendians
Well, some claim that their ancestors always been in America, others claim that Africans (Egyptians, Nubians, West Africans) came to the Americas in precolumbian times and built civilisations like the Olmec, the Maya, Aztec, Moundbuilder, Inca and so on. There are some different versions. I have followed some of the discussions about this for a couple of years now and I heard the most hilarious statements, whereof some are promoted rather aggressively.
I can later make a list of some books and videos where such claims are promoted.
So enough many make the claims for it to be considered as a nuisance by some Native Americans, they feel that they already lost so much after 500 years of genocide and land theft and now some people also try to steal their history. Maybe you can not understand their frustration since you prefer to excuse black people because they have had traumatic experiences in the past. But guess what, so have Native Americans.
I have no number on exactly how many black Americans who reject the historical distortions or how many promotes it, especially in public, I do not know if anyone have made some research about it yet.
quote:Black Americans are traumatized victims, it's not what I seem to think. It's a historical well documented fact! So yeah, there is a lot to complain about. What do you think would happen to a people being subjected to racism and injustices generation after generation?
But they are still grown up people, and it is no excuse for trying to appropriate another peoples history, or try to take credit for their achievements. It is no excuse for spreading false information and pure lies in books, articles, on social media or in other ways, or trying to infiltrate schools with the nonsense. It is no excuse for poaching on a smaller, also traumatized minorities cultural heritage.
quote:What comparisons are you talking about and what is supposedly fair about what?
Show me the images and articles of these Native Americans you are talking about.
Lastly, Black people are behind what fakery exactly?
I talked about the comparison you rejected, between white fringe groups claiming Great Zimbabwe as a white civilisation and some Black fringe groups claiming the Olmecs as a black civilisation.
I know that the ideas of a white Great Zimbabwe and white Egyptians and similar ideas first rose in a colonialist context, but that does not make it OK for some African Americans to mimic similar ideas and denying others their history.
The fakery is when black people claim that they are the original Native Americans, or that Africans came to America and created several of its cultures and civilisation. Fakery is when some people claim that the Olmecs used Mande language in their inscriptions. Fakery is when some claim that the Bonampak murals depict Africans, or that Africans taught Native Americans to build pyramids, or that Cahokia was built by black/African people, just to take a few examples.
I have participated in online communities, and also had other forms of communcation, with Native Americans for some years now, and I have been member of online groups specially dedicated to refute the false narratives about ancient Native American cultures that are spread by the fringe groups, and which is promoted in social media, in books, videos and other ways. I have also debated directly with some of the proponents for these theories.
quote:What other problem are you talking about? Some individuals who claim to have been in the Americas for thousands of years? It's probably something like 1% who claim this. Some indeed have admixture as well. As is documented by historical events.
You seem to have difficulties in understanding what I write. You talk about the white pretendians, and it is a problem. And some Black groups wanting to distort Native American history is another problem. And that some of those African Americans want to sneak such narratives into school curricula is another problem.
And I do not talk about mixed people, it is a well known fact that Native Americans and Black people have mixed for centuries. I talk about those who claim that Blacks (Africans, or "original" black people) built the ancient Native American cultures in precolumbian times, or those who say that Native Americans are recently arrived, Siberian or mongolian Invaders. Some even claim that most Native Americans descend from Asians who were imported by the whites to replace the original black peoples, so they (the black people) could be used as slaves. There are many fringe ideas out there, and some Native Americans take offense about some of those ideas.
It is maybe 1% of Black Americans who claim such a thing, but they are rather active spreading their messages. Especially on social media, but also through books. I even seen examples of childrens books where those kinds of messages are spread.
You always come back to the 5 dollar Indians. They are a problem, but those blacks who want to distort Native history is also considered a problem. There are Native Americans that are afraid that those ideas will spread, infiltrate the school system, or vorse influence politicians, which could have an impact on Native life (concerning land rights and similar). Maybe some of the worries are exaggerated, but Native Americans have been badly treated through history so some of them gets very supicious when other groups starts to talk about that they (the Natives) are not the original Americans, and that Black people have more right to their land.
quote: Whites wrote this and somehow it's "Afrocentric"? [Big Grin] Sir ma'am, it, you have mental issues.
I did not write Haslip Vieras book. I did not make the podcast. If you don´t like their vocabulary I suppose you can take it up with them.
I do not know if you listened to the podcast, it is interesting and it explains some of the problems with historical distortions.
One can also add that some of the worst fringe types now and then post stuff that upset Native Americans more than usual, and native Americans have even received threats online and sometimes in telephone. Seems the fringe movement attract one or another not so stable person. Here is just an example of how toxic some of them can be. I have seen worse. Some of it is probably trolling, but it still upsets, and it is rather consistent. If you had followed these discussions some time you would see some examples of rather bad behaviour.
Fortunately some people trying to refute some of the crazy claims. Also African Americans like this young man:
Here is one Facebook page created by a Native American which adresses the Black Olmec myth. In some way the Olmecs has come to be a kind of symbol for much of the claims and speculations that are promoted in books,articles, pods, videos and social media, and sometimes even in school curricula.
One can add that it sometimes seems like everyone wants a piece of the Native American cake, since so many claim that their ancestors (or some other preferred group) visited the Americas in precolumbian times, teaching the Natives all kinds of cultural traits, like writing or building pyramids.
It is not only Black people who make speculations about other peoples predating Native Americas, which the debates about the Solutrean hypothesis or the Kennewick man show. Some white fringe groups have used such speculations to claim that whites were first in the Americas.
Even if the problem with fringe groups trying to enchroach on Native American history is not a big problem for you (or many others who do not care about such issues), it still is a problem for some Natives. They see it as just another way for other groups to further marginalize them.
It is also funny that some Black pople get upset if non blacks claim the Egyptians where light skinned, or react negatively if someone claim that North Africans always been light skinned. One can even see such discussions here on ES.
At least Native Americans live in the land where some of the fakery is produced, while most black Americans do not live in Egypt, and many have perhaps not even visited Egypt or know any Egyptians.
For you the Black fringe groups that claim Native American history in different ways are perhaps not a problem, but for some Native Americans it is. And in the end it is what matters.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Tehutimes: "Phony Pandemic"? I find much cultural/historical information on this site yet you say COVID-19 is not a real disease? Mask wearing & vaccinations are just for entertainment purposes.
The pandemic was real enough. What was the phony was the over-exaggerated danger of it. It was used to push masks and vaccines for nefarious reasons.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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It sounds a lot like the theory that Egyptians were white/caucasoids based on their facial features.
It comes to show you can't judge a peoples' ancestry by their features alone.
funny because you acknowledge the fact they were craniometrically distinct from 90% of Sub-saharan africa, you don't have their genetic results except the abusir samples and two samples found in lebanon and yet you imply they were "black". May I ask you based on what are you claiming this ?
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