quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Actually, my citation of Hawass's claims are not about Tut or the Amarna family but go back to the late 90s in regards to DNA tests on Old Kingdom Giza mummies which have yet to be released. Again he claims it's because the results are misconstrued to be "Jewish" but many have noted such to be a load of pigcrap based on the simple reason that there is no DNA specific to "Jews" per say other than those associated with Southwest Asia ( paternal hg J) or Africa (paternal hg E). They've released the results on the Amarna family (though not entirely) and the same with the Ramessides (but again not entirely). Yet they haven't released the Giza results at all. No STRs or SNPs not one.
This was hard to find:
"Recently Zahi Hawass, the Egyptian Egyptologist and Under-Secretary of State for Giza Monuments, has indicated that the DNA tests carried out by the Cairo Museum on some of the 600 skeletal remains he found in a Giza Pyramids workers' village will soon be published"
Egypt, Trunk of the Tree: The contexts Volumes 1-2 By Simson R. Najovits · 2003 ____________________________________
"To add fuel to this fire Zahi Hawass the chief director of the Giza Plateau allow DNA testing of any mummies backed by the Egyptian government he said 'DNA testing was out of the question because it would not lead to anything."
The editor of Archaeology magazine, Mark Rose, reported in 2002 that the work was cancelled “due to concern that the results might strengthen an association between the family of Tutankhamun and the Biblical Moses.” An Egyptologist with close links to the antiquities service, speaking to me on condition of anonymity, agreed: “There was a fear it would be said that the pharaohs were Jewish.”
Specifically, if the results showed that Tutankhamun shared DNA with Jewish groups, there was concern that this could be used by Israel to argue that Egypt was part of the Promised Land.
posted
^ Bingo! Thank you Lioness for bringing that up.
So the Egyptian authorities have no qualms about studies on Late Period Lower Egyptians who likely are are foreign ancestry showing genetic ties to the Levant but they do have a problem with Old Kingdom Giza period folk showing the same type of results??!
It just doesn't add up.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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"Recently Zahi Hawass, the Egyptian Egyptologist and Under-Secretary of State for Giza Monuments, has indicated that the DNA tests carried out by the Cairo Museum on some of the 600 skeletal remains he found in a Giza Pyramids workers' village will soon be published"
Egypt, Trunk of the Tree: The contexts Volumes 1-2 By Simson R. Najovits · 2003 ____________________________________
"To add fuel to this fire Zahi Hawass the chief director of the Giza Plateau allow DNA testing of any mummies backed by the Egyptian government he said 'DNA testing was out of the question because it would not lead to anything."
The editor of Archaeology magazine, Mark Rose, reported in 2002 that the work was cancelled “due to concern that the results might strengthen an association between the family of Tutankhamun and the Biblical Moses.” An Egyptologist with close links to the antiquities service, speaking to me on condition of anonymity, agreed: “There was a fear it would be said that the pharaohs were Jewish.”
Specifically, if the results showed that Tutankhamun shared DNA with Jewish groups, there was concern that this could be used by Israel to argue that Egypt was part of the Promised Land.
I want to add that I can't verify any of the above 3 sources quotes (two in books that are a bot fringe, one an article). They could be true or could be fabricated
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-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: This is my portrait of the Ptolemaic Egyptian princess Arsinoe IV (b. 68-63 BC), who was the youngest daughter of Ptolemy XII and a sister to Cleopatra VII (the famous Cleopatra).
This is supposed to be a Ptolemaic queen, it's absurd Brandon does the same thing Eurocentrics do ignoring the Egyptian art and coming up with his own fantasy twists It's fetishization Just do your black girl fantasies separately as modern Black women of the united states instead of trying to cloak the fantasy as historical. If you are going to do Egyptian history look at the damn art, then make the cartoon.
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Its Probably who they used as a source model
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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This is a perfect example of how forensic reconstruction is as much art as it is science and bias ideology affects artistry.
Meanwhile here is what a couple more objective analyses of Nazlet Khater's skeletal morphology state:
Nazlet Khater man was the earliest modern human skeleton found near Luxor, in 1980. The remains was dated from between 35,000 and 30,000 years ago. The report regarding the racial affinity of this skeleton concludes: "Strong alveolar prognathism combined with fossa praenasalis in an African skull is suggestive of Negroid morphology [form & structure]. The radio-humeral index of Nazlet Khater is practically the same as the mean of Taforalt (76.6). According to Ferembach (1965) this value is near to the Negroid average." The burial was of a young man of 17-20 years old, whose skeleton lay in a 160cm- long narrow ditch aligned from east to west. A flint tool, which was laid carefully on the bottom of the grave, dates the burial as contemporaneous with a nearby flint quarry. The morphological features of the Nazlet Khater skeleton were analysed by Thoma (1984). The 35,000 year old skeleton was examined using multivariate statistical procedures. In the first part, principal components analysis is performed on a dataset of mandible dimensions of 220 fossils, sub-fossils and modern specimens, ranging in time from the Late Pleistocene to recent and restricted in space to the African continent and Southern Levant. --- Thoma A., Morphology and Affinities of the Nazlet Khater Man; Journal of Human Evolution, vol. 13, 1984
Nazlet Khater falls closer to the Late Palaeolithic Nubian samples.... If an ancestral descendant relationship existed between Nazlet Khater and the Late Palaeolithic Nubian specimens, then regional continuity persisted among the Upper/Late Pleistocene populations of the Upper Nile region. The Nazlet Khater specimen is part of a relict population which is a descendant of a larger sub-Saharan stock, which extended as far north as present day upper Egypt sometime during the Last Interglacial period, or the early part of the Last Glacial period. Both hypotheses are compatible with the hypothesis proposed by Brothwell (1963) of an East African proto-Khoisan Negro stock which migrated southwards and westwards at some time during the Upper Pleistocene, and replaced most of the local populations of South Africa. Under such circumstances, it is possible that the Nazlet Khater specimen is part of a relict population of this proto-Khoisan Negro stock which extended as far north as Nazlet Khater at least until the late part of the Late Pleistocene. At the onset of the Holocene, the proto-Khoisan Negro stock became differentiated to proto-Negro and large proto-Khoisan varieties. The proto-Negro stock migrated west and the large proto-Khoisan varieties migrated south.... ...The morphometric affinities of the 33,000 year old skeleton from Nazlet Khater, Upper Egypt are examined using multivariate statistical procedures.. The results indicate a strong association between some of the sub-Saharan Middle Stone Age (MSA) specimens, and the Nazlet Khater mandible. Furthermore, the results suggest that variability between African populations during the Neolithic and Protohistoric periods was more pronounced than the range of variability observed among recent African and Levantine populations. In such a scenario, the Nazlet Khater belongs to a relict population which retained some of the morphological features [form & structure] that were present among Middle Stone Age populations, but no longer present in other contemporaneous sub-Saharan and North African populations. --- The Position of the Nazlet Khater Specimen Among Prehistoric and Modern African and Levantine Populations, Ron Pinhasi, Departent of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, U.K., Patrick Semal, Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences, Belgium; Journal of Human Evolution (2000) vol. 39, 269–288.
But apparently you can make anybody look white even an ancestral "Pre-proto-Negro"! LMAO
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The article notes how he would have been "of African ancestry", and yet he still looks a little pale to me.
Considering the assessments of experts like Brothwell and Pinhasi perhaps the artist was going for more of a 'Khoisan' look instead of the 'Negro' whose features he equally possessed-- both racial groups are 'Sub-Saharan'.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ Ironically genes in the saliva of modern Sub-Saharans shows such admixture with archaic Hominins which racist whites use as evidence to dehumanize said Africans. So the genetics of Sub-Saharans correlates with Nazlet Khater.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ It's actually rare to see any ancient Egyptian construction use the skin tone of the people native to that area. Of course technically skin tone shouldn't be part of a reconstruction based on the skull anyway.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Ironically genes in the saliva of modern Sub-Saharans shows such admixture with archaic Hominins which racist whites use as evidence to dehumanize said Africans. So the genetics of Sub-Saharans correlates with Nazlet Khater. [/QB]
It is interesting that Homo sapiens in Europe (and the Middle East) mixed with Neanderthals, Homo sapiens in Asia mixed with Denisovans, and Homo sapiens in Africa are said to have mixed with one or another form of archaic human. Seems we have been rather fond of mixing from oldest time.
Also archaic humans (at least Neanderthals and Denisovans) seem to have mixed with each other.
Homo mixtus
Scene from the documentary The Lost Tribes of Humanity (2017)
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
not only is Ramses looking Black he is the same color as some of the Nubians: what don't people understand, they ignore the pictures and give Ramses a light pigment skin color.
Some of the nubians have the exact same color as pharaoh ramses they are playing dumb because they scholars dont want to go by the picture but by there feeling of egypt as a white civilzations
Ramses looks Black and is the exact same skin color as some of the Nubians
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KING: [QB] not only is Ramses looking Black he is the same color as some of the Nubians: what don't people understand, they ignore the pictures and give Ramses a light pigment skin color.
Some of the nubians have the exact same color as pharaoh ramses they are playing dumb because they scholars dont want to go by the picture but by there feeling of egypt as a white civilzations
Ramses looks Black and is the exact same skin color as some of the Nubians
Are you saying some of the Nubians weren't black ?
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Ironically genes in the saliva of modern Sub-Saharans shows such admixture with archaic Hominins which racist whites use as evidence to dehumanize said Africans. So the genetics of Sub-Saharans correlates with Nazlet Khater.
Which white people are you referring to? what are their names and are the quotes of them saying these things?
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: Ironically genes in the saliva of modern Sub-Saharans shows such admixture with archaic Hominins which racist whites use as evidence to dehumanize said Africans. So the genetics of Sub-Saharans correlates with Nazlet Khater.
Which white people are you referring to? what are their names and are the quotes of them saying these things? [/QUOTEB]
Stop gaslighting Lioness, you asked me the same exact thing in the other thread about Keita, which white supremacist you said, I produced ample evidence and you have yet to comment I AM STILL WAITING. I hope you read all and I mean ALL the sources and names of DNA scientists I referenced.
So why would anyone waste time producing evidence for you. White supremacist have been using the archaic admixture in Africans to imply that they are less than human since that study came out.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: Ironically genes in the saliva of modern Sub-Saharans shows such admixture with archaic Hominins which racist whites use as evidence to dehumanize said Africans. So the genetics of Sub-Saharans correlates with Nazlet Khater.
Which white people are you referring to? what are their names and are the quotes of them saying these things? [/QUOTEB]
Stop gaslighting Lioness, you asked me the same exact thing in the other thread about Keita, which white supremacist you said, I produced ample evidence and you have yet to comment I AM STILL WAITING. I hope you read all and I mean ALL the sources and names of DNA scientists I referenced.
So why would anyone waste time producing evidence for you. White supremacist have been using the archaic admixture in Africans to imply that they are less than human since that study came out.
You didn't answer it. You got scared and just put up some quotes, opinions of other people
It's a simple request, list a few names of people you think (not who someone else said this or that about), you in your own words, in one sentence naming who you think is a white supremacist. I'm tired of the bluffing, and hypothetical boogeymen
In this case with Djehuti, name the racist whites researchers who tried to dehumanize Africans by suggesting they have admixture with archaic Hominins
There is no risk here, we aren't even using our gov't names in this forum, just name the damn people first
Let's have some metaphorical balls here, and call out these evil whites by name
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: Ironically genes in the saliva of modern Sub-Saharans shows such admixture with archaic Hominins which racist whites use as evidence to dehumanize said Africans. So the genetics of Sub-Saharans correlates with Nazlet Khater.
Which white people are you referring to? what are their names and are the quotes of them saying these things? [/QUOTEB]
Stop gaslighting Lioness, you asked me the same exact thing in the other thread about Keita, which white supremacist you said, I produced ample evidence and you have yet to comment I AM STILL WAITING. I hope you read all and I mean ALL the sources and names of DNA scientists I referenced.
So why would anyone waste time producing evidence for you. White supremacist have been using the archaic admixture in Africans to imply that they are less than human since that study came out.
You didn't answer it. You got scared and just put up some quotes, opinions of other people
It's a simple request, list a few names of people you think (not who someone else said this or that about), you in your own words, in one sentence naming who you think is a white supremacist. I'm tired of the bluffing, and hypothetical boogeymen
In this case with Djehuti, name the racist whites researchers who tried to dehumanize Africans by suggesting they have admixture with archaic Hominins
There is no risk here, we aren't even using our gov't name in this forum, just name the damn people first
Let's have some metaphorical balls here, and call out these evil whites by name
Stop lying... the qoutes where answers, there are real dna scientist who believe Rosenbergs 5 continental races and used that study to expound on races and IQ...
Quit being a lazy gaslighter and go real ALL and I mean ALL of my links. The whole excercise of genomics was founded by a scientific racist and the whole point was to prove races exist, and negroes/ i.e. Yoruba are a subspecies of humanity.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
^ That's the way lioness operates. She is a dishonest person she once even had a black woman avatar (black face) claiming she is black. LOL As if anyone believed that.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Ironically genes in the saliva of modern Sub-Saharans shows such admixture with archaic Hominins which racist whites use as evidence to dehumanize said Africans. So the genetics of Sub-Saharans correlates with Nazlet Khater.
Which white people are you referring to? what are their names and are the quotes of them saying these things?
Don't get your knickers in a bunch. I said racist whites. The racists bring up the study of archaic Hominin admixture in Sub-Saharans as proof that they are not truly human but subhuman all the time in biodiversity blogs and without a doubt all the white supremacy sites. It is ironic because as Archaeopteryx pointed out Eurasians have similar admixture as well from Neanderthals and Denisovans. You want a specific example, how about the troll Thule who mentioned it on more than one occasion.
Seriously Lioness, what's wrong? Doth protest too much or rather the guilty flee where none pursueth?
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Ironically genes in the saliva of modern Sub-Saharans shows such admixture with archaic Hominins which racist whites use as evidence to dehumanize said Africans. So the genetics of Sub-Saharans correlates with Nazlet Khater.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Which white people are you referring to? what are their names and are the quotes of them saying these things? [/qb]
I said racist whites. The racists bring up the study of archaic Hominin admixture in Sub-Saharans as proof that they are not truly human but subhuman all the time in biodiversity blogs and without a doubt all the white supremacy sites.
I don't read biodiversity blogs. Fill us in, give us a link to a blog where someone is arguing archaic Hominin admixture in Sub-Saharans is proof that they are not truly human. What is your source someone is making this argument? I have never heard this argument being made. What backwaters have you been swimming in?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
It is ironic because as Archaeopteryx pointed out Eurasians have similar admixture as well from Neanderthals and Denisovans.
Since 2010 when a Neanderthal Genome was sequenced there have been numerous mainstream media articles talking about archaic Hominin admixture with humans by Neanderthals and Denisovans in Eurasians. and these articles often pointed out >but not in Africans.
This is why I ask for sources, actual quotes by people instead of "Euronuts say" or "white supremacists Eugenic researchers say"
I'm not saying people didn't say this or that, I just want the names, some accountability here so we can call out these racists by name, real names, not some handle like "thule" from 10 years go on ES
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by KING: not only is Ramses looking Black he is the same color as some of the Nubians:
what don't people understand, they ignore the pictures and give Ramses a light pigment skin color.
Some of the nubians have the exact same color as pharaoh ramses they are playing dumb because they scholars dont want to go by the picture but by there feeling of egypt as a white civilzations
Ramses looks Black and is the exact same skin color as some of the Nubians
It seems that the Nubians have slightly different facial features though.
One interesting detail is that the black Nubians have red hair and the brown ones have yellow hair. Is it decorative or symbolic? Is it thought to illustrate two different groups of Nubians?
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
Most of the time the light skin complexion of Ramses or others in the Ramessid dynasty is mostly tied to the so-called Asian lineages of the dynasty. All of this is completely made up by early archeologists and in no way shape or form is supported by the facts. The actual evidence quite clearly states that this dynasty originated in the South and potentially was of so-called "Nubian" origin.
quote: The non royal origin of Ramesses is attested on a statue recovered in 1913 by G. Legrain at the foot of a giant of Horemheb, under the Xème pylon of Karnak.It was dedicated to the "prince in the whole country, mayor of the city, vizier, Paramessu, who the chief of the archers Sethy begat". The inscription sculpted on the loincloth stretched on the knees completes its titles thus: "chief of the archers, intendant of the horses, chief of the seal, transporter of His Majesty, royal messenger for all foreign countries, royal scribe, commander of the army of the Lord of the Two Lands, chief of the priests of all gods, lieutenant of His Majesty in Upper and Lower Egypt, ordering the mouths of the Nile, noble, mayor of the city, vizier, Paramessu". From this non royal period survives two sarcophaguses, of which one will also be re-used by his great-grandson.
The Ramesside family is therefore, traditionally, a family of soldiers. He was from the East of the Delta, from the city of Tanis, situated on the edge of Asia, an origin which could have an influence on some aspects of Ramesside politics. It also explains the frequency of the Sethy name in the family: "the one that belongs to Seth ", a God particularly honoured in the oriental part of the Lower Egypt. One also knows, thanks to a stela dated from Ramesses II, and discovery in Tanis that, even before his advent, vizier Paramessu had sent his son Sethy to do homage to Seth in his city.
In all the titles and honors related to the founders of the Ramessid dynasty it is repeatedly mention that this person was "chief of the archers" and "great of the Medjay". Obviously this indicates Southern origins not to mention these titles also mention Set the Nubti, meaning Set from the town of Nubt, also called Naqada, which is the ancient predynastic town where Set worship originated in Upper Egypt. But according to these clowns, all of a sudden, after hundreds of years as the Medjay/Southerners being the main military and police of the Nile, they chose a person of Eurasian origin to lead the armies against Eurasian invaders. It is totally made up nonsense. And even now, when the facts show this is nonsense, they still persist in pushing it regardless.
quote: The incomplete stela was made during the reign of Ramesses II of the 19th Dynasty; this pharaoh appears in the lunette while offering wine jars to Seth, whose name was erased when this deity was demonised in later times. Behind the pharaoh stands an official named Seti, the author of the stela.
Since the discovery it was obvious that the Year 400 of Nubti was not a regnal year, but rather a sort of anniversary. Giving the 400-years interval and the explicit references to the god Seth, Nubti was initially considered an othervise unattested Hyksos ruler.[1][4][5] Thus, it was suggested that the 400th anniversary could refer to an important event such as the construction of a temple of Seth,[6] or, more generally, to the beginning of a new era.[1][4] The discovery also fueled the now-disproven hypothesis that Tanis had to be identified with the ancient Hyksos capital Avaris,[7] and that the stela may have been a commemoration of the arrival of the Hyksos.[2][6][8]
In more modern times, however, scholars realized that the official Seti is none other than Ramesses' father Seti I in his early career, and the earlier king Nubti was not a real king, but rather Seth himself provided with fictitious royal titles. Going 400 years back before the period suggested by the stela (most likely when Seti was an official under king Horemheb), gives a datation of the celebrated event of around 1730–1720 BCE.
The stela is a celebration of the origins of the Dynasty under Paramessu, also known as Ramses I, and his son Seti I. And it is clear that this dynasty has southern origins and were not descended from Hyksos invaders. Yet this myth keeps persisting for the obvious reasons.
How Rosellini and Champollion recorded members of the 18th and 19th Ramessid dynasty paintings, which is consistent with how they depicted themselves throughout the dynastic era with chocolate brown skin. There is no evidence from the Nile of a light skin Ramessid dynasty.
posted
They already analyzed his skin and Ramses II was indeed light skinned :
quote: In 1975, the mummy of Ramesses II was taken to France for preservation. The mummy was also forensically tested by Professor Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Professor Ceccaldi determined that: "Hair, astonishingly preserved, showed some complementary data - especially about pigmentation: Ramses II was a ginger haired 'cymnotricheleucoderma'." The description given here refers to a fair-skinned person with wavy ginger hair. [70][71] Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[72] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."[73]
L. Balout and C. Roubet, La momie de Ramsès II : Contribution scientifique à l'égyptologie
quote:Ramses II, as for him, would have had,according to the most recent investigations carried out on his mummy, the milky skin and the ginger hair of the man of the North , which is not surprising since it is well known that his family was born in the Eastern Delta, […]
quote:Sometimes the natural color of the skin can be distinguished in certain places, such as white skin on the mummies of Ramses II and an anonymous royal mummy, according to FOUQUET (1886), who opened their sarcophagus. However, most mummies have a black, charred appearance; this color comes from either a slow organic combustion process or a type of bitumen that hinders examination with the naked eye, which likely came from Mesopotamia and Palestine (CONNAN 1991), just like the embalming resins reserved for the wealthy, which came from Lebanon (LÉCA1976). The blackening effect of "mineral oil" is mentioned in a Roman-era papyrus (N°AE/N5158 from the Louvre) cited by Connan.
posted
Red hair light skin, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ still probably had E1b1a lineage, so he was a descendant from upper Egypt and if Hawas & Co. were so confident in his European lineage they would test his DNA. Bob Briar in a recent interview, said that National Geographic requested to retest the Armana mummies to confirm the findings and National Geo is still waiting for an answer, but the delay is probably a denial.
R1
Red hair in mixed families is not the flex that some think it is...
TWINS.... phenotype expression in mixed families is very random.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Most of the time the light skin complexion of Ramses or others in the Ramessid dynasty is mostly tied to the so-called Asian lineages of the dynasty. All of this is completely made up by early archeologists and in no way shape or form is supported by the facts. The actual evidence quite clearly states that this dynasty originated in the South and potentially was of so-called "Nubian" origin.
quote: The non royal origin of Ramesses is attested on a statue recovered in 1913 by G. Legrain at the foot of a giant of Horemheb, under the Xème pylon of Karnak.It was dedicated to the "prince in the whole country, mayor of the city, vizier, Paramessu, who the chief of the archers Sethy begat". The inscription sculpted on the loincloth stretched on the knees completes its titles thus: "chief of the archers, intendant of the horses, chief of the seal, transporter of His Majesty, royal messenger for all foreign countries, royal scribe, commander of the army of the Lord of the Two Lands, chief of the priests of all gods, lieutenant of His Majesty in Upper and Lower Egypt, ordering the mouths of the Nile, noble, mayor of the city, vizier, Paramessu". From this non royal period survives two sarcophaguses, of which one will also be re-used by his great-grandson.
The Ramesside family is therefore, traditionally, a family of soldiers. He was from the East of the Delta, from the city of Tanis, situated on the edge of Asia, an origin which could have an influence on some aspects of Ramesside politics. It also explains the frequency of the Sethy name in the family: "the one that belongs to Seth ", a God particularly honoured in the oriental part of the Lower Egypt. One also knows, thanks to a stela dated from Ramesses II, and discovery in Tanis that, even before his advent, vizier Paramessu had sent his son Sethy to do homage to Seth in his city.
In all the titles and honors related to the founders of the Ramessid dynasty it is repeatedly mention that this person was "chief of the archers" and "great of the Medjay". Obviously this indicates Southern origins not to mention these titles also mention Set the Nubti, meaning Set from the town of Nubt, also called Naqada, which is the ancient predynastic town where Set worship originated in Upper Egypt. But according to these clowns, all of a sudden, after hundreds of years as the Medjay/Southerners being the main military and police of the Nile, they chose a person of Eurasian origin to lead the armies against Eurasian invaders. It is totally made up nonsense. And even now, when the facts show this is nonsense, they still persist in pushing it regardless.
quote: The incomplete stela was made during the reign of Ramesses II of the 19th Dynasty; this pharaoh appears in the lunette while offering wine jars to Seth, whose name was erased when this deity was demonised in later times. Behind the pharaoh stands an official named Seti, the author of the stela.
Since the discovery it was obvious that the Year 400 of Nubti was not a regnal year, but rather a sort of anniversary. Giving the 400-years interval and the explicit references to the god Seth, Nubti was initially considered an othervise unattested Hyksos ruler.[1][4][5] Thus, it was suggested that the 400th anniversary could refer to an important event such as the construction of a temple of Seth,[6] or, more generally, to the beginning of a new era.[1][4] The discovery also fueled the now-disproven hypothesis that Tanis had to be identified with the ancient Hyksos capital Avaris,[7] and that the stela may have been a commemoration of the arrival of the Hyksos.[2][6][8]
In more modern times, however, scholars realized that the official Seti is none other than Ramesses' father Seti I in his early career, and the earlier king Nubti was not a real king, but rather Seth himself provided with fictitious royal titles. Going 400 years back before the period suggested by the stela (most likely when Seti was an official under king Horemheb), gives a datation of the celebrated event of around 1730–1720 BCE.
The stela is a celebration of the origins of the Dynasty under Paramessu, also known as Ramses I, and his son Seti I. And it is clear that this dynasty has southern origins and were not descended from Hyksos invaders. Yet this myth keeps persisting for the obvious reasons.
How Rosellini and Champollion recorded members of the 18th and 19th Ramessid dynasty paintings, which is consistent with how they depicted themselves throughout the dynastic era with chocolate brown skin. There is no evidence from the Nile of a light skin Ramessid dynasty.
A very good break down. The Delta had many kushites settlements
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
Robert Bianchi, in p. 64 of his Daily Life of the Nubians, has argued that the mummification process can sometimes remove traces of melanin:
quote:That [these Middle Kingdom mummies] may have been Nubians themselves is quite possible, although the process of mummification removes all traces of melanin by which their ethnicity may have been confirmed.
Does make you wonder about the Mekota et al study reporting finding substantial melanin "as expected for specimens of negroid origin" in New Kingdom Egyptian mummies though.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: A very good break down. The Delta had many kushites settlements
Well the crux of the issue is that basal populations of the Lower Nile originate in the South. This has always been true historically prior to the modern era. This is the significance of the Nazlet Khater skull and many other later sites such as those now under Lake Nasser. There is no physical evidence of Eurasian back migration, which only exists based on theoretical statistical models of ancient DNA.
And so too did the basal culture of the Lower Nile also originate in the South through the dynastic period, even though they still try to impose a Eurasian origin for it and this carried on even into the late period, especially starting in the late 19th dynasty. Many early Egyptologists had no choice but to acknowledge this, even begrudgingly as the 21st dynasty was a renaissaince in culture led by the priests of Amun in conjunction with the Kings sons of Kush. It was during this era when mummification reached its highest point and when most plundered mummies were reburied.
quote: It seems probable that one branch of the family, endowed with greater capability than the rest, was settled at Tanis, where Sesostris had, as we have seen, resided for many years; Smendes was the first of this branch to ascend the throne. The remembrance of his remote ancestor, Ramses II, which was still treasured up in the city he had completely rebuilt, as well as in the Delta into which he had infused new life, was doubtless of no small service in securing the crown for his descendant, when, the line of the Theban kings having come to an end, the Tanites put in their claim to the succession. We are unable to discover if war broke out between the two competitors, or if they arrived at an agreement without a struggle; but, at all events, we may assume that, having divided Egypt between them, neither of them felt himself strong enough to overcome his rival, and contented himself with the possession of half the empire, since he could not possess it in its entirety. We may fairly believe that Smendes had the greater right to the throne, and, above all, the more efficient army of the two, since, had it been otherwise, Hrihor would never have consented to yield him the priority.
The unity of Egypt was, to outward appearances, preserved, through the nominal possession by Smendes of the suzerainty; but, as a matter of fact, it had ceased to exist, and the fiction of the two kingdoms had become a reality for the first time within the range of history. Hence forward there were two Egypts, governed by different constitutions and from widely remote centres. Theban Egypt was, before all things, a community recognizing a theocratic government, in which the kingly office was merged in that of the high priest. Separated from Asia by the length of the Delta, it turned its attention, like the Pharaohs of the VIth and XIIth dynasties, to Ethiopia, and owing to its distance from the Mediterranean, and from the new civilization developed on its shores, it became more and more isolated, till at length it was reduced to a purely African state. Northern Egypt, on the contrary, maintained contact with European and Asiatic nations; it took an interest in their future, it borrowed from them to a certain extent whatever struck it as being useful or beautiful, and when the occasion presented itself, it acted in concert with Mediterranean powers. There was an almost constant struggle between these two divisions of the empire, at times breaking out into an open rupture, to end as often in a temporary re-establishment of unity. At one time Ethiopia would succeed in annexing Egypt, and again Egypt would seize some part of Ethiopia; but the settlement of affairs was never final, and the conflicting elements, brought with difficulty into harmony, relapsed into their usual condition at the end of a few years. A kingdom thus divided against itself could never succeed in maintaining its authority over those provinces which, even in the heyday of its power, had proved impatient of its yoke.
Note the contempt put on the "Theban" priests for turning back to the South where the culture originated. And note how he skips over the renaissance spurred on by this activity of the Theban priests. But even with that they have to begrudgingly admit the African nature of the culture.
Wehem Mesut
quote: The period of ancient Egyptian history known as wehem mesut or, more commonly, Whm Mswt (Manuel de Codage transliteration: wHm msw.t) can be literally translated as Repetition of Births, but is usually referred to as the (Era of the) Renaissance.
And the reason why this period is not well known and confusing is because of its nature as a period of Southern focus in Upper Egypt. All of which goes completely against any suggestions of the 19th dynasty being of Northern/Eurasian origins and reaffirms the Southern orientation and "basal" origin of the culture.
quote: Sometime during the reign of Ramesses XI, Pinehesy succeeded in temporarily removing the Theban High Priest of Amun, Amenhotep from office. This action is often referred to as "the war against the High Priest" or "the suppression of the High Priest Amenhotep". However, in a very detailed study, Kim Ridealgh has shown that the traditional translation "suppression" of the Egyptian term "thj" is misleading, since it suggests that Amenhotep was somehow besieged and/or robbed of his freedom. The term rather denotes a more general act of aggression.[5] Therefore, a more neutral translation like "transgression against the High Priest" is to be preferred.
Although this "transgression against the High Priest of Amun" used to be dated quite early in the reign (prior to year 9 of the reign, on the basis of Pap. B.M. 10053),[6] recently the communis opinio has changed to the view that it took place only shortly before the start of the Whm Mswt or Renaissance, an era which was inaugurated in regnal Year 19, probably to stress the return of normal conditions following the coup of Pinehesy. Pinehesy and Piankh
Following his "transgression", Pinehesy was chased out of the Thebais, although it is not entirely clear who ended this anarchic period. It seems that Pinehesy more or less maintained his position in Nubia for over a decade.
Some ten years after the suppression, in year 10 of the Whm Mswt, the then High Priest of Amun Piankh, in his position as Viceroy of Kush, led an army into Nubia with the apparent aim to 'meet' a certain Pinehesy, probably the former Viceroy of Kush. Although it is often postulated that it was the aim of this expedition to attack Pinehesy,[7] this is by no means certain. The verb used has the more general meaning "to go to" rather than "attack".[8] The negative determinative which was used in the Tomb Robbery Papyri to designate him as an enemy is absent.[9][10] Other Egyptologists have suggested that Piankh may have rather gone south to negotiate with Pinehesy, either officially or not. The sources are actually ambiguous on this point and the political climate may well have changed over the years. There is some evidence that at this time Piankh may no longer have been a loyal servant of Ramesses XI, which allows for the possibility that he was secretly negotiating with Pinehesy,[11][12] possibly even plotting against the reigning king.
E. Wente wrote: "One has the impression that the viceroy and his Nubian troops were loyalists, for the remarks made by his opponent Piankh in letter No. 301 are quite disparaging of the pharaoh, Ramesses XI."[13] In this letter, better known as LRL no. 21, Piankh remarks:[14]
As for Pharaoh, l.p.h., how shall he reach this land? And of whom is Pharaoh, l.p.h., superior still?
Unfortunately, due to the very limited nature of the sources, the exact relationships between the three main protagonists, Piankh, Pinehesy and Ramesses XI remain far from clear. Some scholars believe that the Nubian campaign was part of an ongoing power struggle between the High Priest of Amun and the Viceroy of Kush.[15] However, it is equally possible that Piankh came to the rescue of Pinehesy against some common enemy. In fact, neither the aim of the expedition nor its outcome are beyond doubt. It has also been argued that shortly afterwards Piankh disappeared off the stage with the Viceroy Pinehesy being reinvested in his former position as Viceroy, which would only be possible with the consent of Ramesses XI, either willingly or not.[16]
It seems that Pinehesy died of old age while still in control of Lower Nubia.[17] He was buried in Aniba, where a tomb inscribed with his name was discovered.
quote: Gaston Maspero, who first unwrapped the mummy of Ramesses II, writes, "on the temples there are a few sparse hairs, but at the poll the hair is quite thick, forming smooth, straight locks about five centimeters in length. White at the time of death, and possibly auburn during life, they have been dyed a light red by the spices (henna) used in embalming...the moustache and beard are thin...The hairs are white, like those of the head and eyebrows...the skin is of earthy brown, splotched with black... the face of the mummy gives a fair idea of the face of the living king".
posted
How do they infer the skin color? Is it complete artistic license or are they inferring via the modern populations that most closely match the cranial traits?
Posts: 44 | From: West Bumble... | Registered: Apr 2017
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posted
Some seem to have seen both Nubian and Mediterranean features in him
quote: In 1980, James Harris and Edward F. Wente conducted a series of X-ray examinations on New Kingdom Pharaohs crania and skeletal remains, which included the mummified remains of Ramesses II. The analysis in general found strong similarities between the New Kingdom rulers of the 19th Dynasty and 20th Dynasty with Mesolithic Nubian samples. The authors also noted affinities with modern Mediterranean populations of Levantine origin. Harris and Wente suggested that this represented admixture as the Rammessides were of northern origin.
quote:In April 2021, his mummy was moved from the Egyptian Museum to the National Museum of Egyptian Civilization along with those of 17 other kings and 4 queens in an event termed the Pharaohs' Golden Parade.
Here is a couple of pictures from the occasion
Pictures from a French documentary from 2022
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Earlier in the film this conversation took place between Caroline Wilkinson and Sahar Salim (radiolog who scanned the mummy), regarding the color of Ramses skin:
quote: CW: Hello Sahar
SS: Hello, how are you?
CW: We are getting there, we are coming along thanks to the data. Have you got some information for us in relation to appearance? Is there any research been done on skin color of the ancient Egyptians?
SS: They considered themselves as brown colored...and it is not like the Libyans which have whiter color or fair color, or like the African people who had very dark, black color. I would choose this tone for the skin of the king, I wont go wrong by choosing this ... I think that this color would be good and I think it would suite the king
CW: Thanks Sahar, nice to speak to you
They showed this plate with the recommended color, which was honey colored
Reconstruction with color
Here is the reconstruction without color
They also did an age regression
Ramses at 45 years of age
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Earlier in the film this conversation took place between Caroline Wilkinson and Sahar Salim (radiolog who scanned the mummy), regarding the color of Ramses skin:
quote: CW: Hello Sahar
SS: Hello, how are you?
CW: We are getting there, we are coming along thanks to the data. Have you got some information for us in relation to appearance? Is there any research been done on skin color of the ancient Egyptians?
SS: They considered themselves as brown colored...and it is not like the Libyans which have whiter color or fair color, or like the African people who had very dark, black color. I would choose this tone for the skin of the king, I wont go wrong by choosing this ... I think that this color would be good and I think it would suite the king
CW: Thanks Sahar, nice to speak to you
They showed this plate with the recommended color, which was honey colored
Reconstruction with color
Here is the reconstruction without color
They also did an age regression
Ramses at 45 years of age
That isn't brown and it isn't the color they used in the dynastic period for their art. Whatever specific shade of brown he was in life, this reconstruction deliberately is misleading in claiming that the dynastic era portrayed themselves as tan in color.
posted
Something about Sahar Saleem who scanned the mummy and who is seen in the above mentioned documentary. She seems to be an Egyptian.
quote: Sahar Saleem is a professor of radiology at Cairo University where she specialises in paleoradiology, the use of radiology to study mummies. She discovered the knife wound in the throat of Ramesses III, which was most likely the cause of his death.
Earlier in the film this conversation took place between Caroline Wilkinson and Sahar Salim (radiolog who scanned the mummy), regarding the color of Ramses skin:
quote: CW: Hello Sahar
SS: Hello, how are you?
CW: We are getting there, we are coming along thanks to the data. Have you got some information for us in relation to appearance? Is there any research been done on skin color of the ancient Egyptians?
SS: They considered themselves as brown colored...and it is not like the Libyans which have whiter color or fair color, or like the African people who had very dark, black color. I would choose this tone for the skin of the king, I wont go wrong by choosing this ... I think that this color would be good and I think it would suite the king
CW: Thanks Sahar, nice to speak to you
They showed this plate with the recommended color, which was honey colored
How did you get this part of the conversation and clip? I can't find a link to the full doc
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
The film can be seen on Swedish television and it is available online until October 2025.
I am not sure if it is available outside Sweden though. The speaker voice is in Swedish but the dialogue between the researchers is in English and some interviews are in French and English.
posted
Ironic they mention Champollion as he was among the first to document the monuments of the Nile Valley in a work that is still considered a critical element of any documentation on the ancient monuments of the Nile. Curious if that didn't come up at all in this.
posted
His skin has already been analyzed and found to be light-skinned, regardless of how artistic conventions have portrayed him. Secondly, many Eurasians, particularly those from North Africa, can tan, which DougM may not be familiar with because most of the "white" people he has encountered in his life are from Northwestern Europe and live in North America. Lastly, the red skin tone depicted in these artworks can be found almost everywhere in modern-day North Africa and the color of the mummy as I've shown is due to the mummification process.
Individuals like DougM are frequently in denial and hold the belief that all Africans must resemble them. Literally an afro-american of west african descent with a tropically adapted body thinks people who live further north at the gate of Asia have to look like him or else it's a conspiracy to hide the glory of black folks.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] Ironic they mention Champollion as he was among the first to document the monuments of the Nile Valley in a work that is still considered a critical element of any documentation on the ancient monuments of the Nile. Curious if that didn't come up at all in this.
How he met and saw Ramses II:
the caption on the print itself in French is here is
Additional title: 1. Buste de Sésostris, ou Rhamsès III, ... ; 2. Buste de la reine Nofré-Ari, femme de Sésostris; ... 3. Figure, en pied, d'une princesse, fille de Sésostris, coiffée en déesse Hathôr, et faisant l'offrande d'un bouquet de papyrus et de l'instrument religiuex, en or, nommé Pât; 4. Figure, en pied, de la même reine Nofré-Ari, dans un riche costume, ...
1. Bust of Sesostris, or Ramses III, ...; 2. Bust of Queen Nofré-Ari, wife of Sesostris; ... 3. Figure, full length, of a princess, daughter of Sesostris, wearing her hair as the goddess Hathor, and making the offering of a bouquet of papyrus and of the religious instrument, in gold, called Pât; 4. Figure, full length, of the same queen Nofré-Ari, in a rich costume, ..
________________________________
I think it is probably Ramses III,
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: His skin has already been analyzed and found to be light-skinned, regardless of how artistic conventions have portrayed him.
Analyzed by who? Care to provide a source?
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Secondly, many Eurasians, particularly those from North Africa, can tan, which DougM may not be familiar with because most of the "white" people he has encountered in his life are from Northwestern Europe and live in North America.
So are you saying that Ramses was Eurasian? Because if so then basically what you are admitting is that you know the depictions represent a black African phenotype. And why would Eurasians who tan depict themselves so consistently dark? This is just a statement of fact you seem to be trying to avoid. Now, for what its worth, I am not trying to say what specific color Ramses had in life, but, the evidence I see from the mummy and the portraits seem to be consistent.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Lastly, the red skin tone depicted in these artworks can be found almost everywhere in modern-day North Africa and the color of the mummy as I've shown is due to the mummification process.
It is not red but brown. Most of these "red" images are due to color correction in photoshop. And again, people like to trot these arguments out to explain away the brown color in the artwork.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Individuals like DougM are frequently in denial and hold the belief that all Africans must resemble them. Literally an afro-american of west african descent with a tropically adapted body thinks people who live further north at the gate of Asia have to look like him or else it's a conspiracy to hide the glory of black folks.
I posted artwork made by Europeans depicting these people as brown, but I am in denial? Denial of what? Not to mention, I never said anything about Ramses looking like me. You need to stop making up stuff. The point there is more than enough evidence on the ground to support the position that these people were not light skinned in general. And of course that is what bothers you because people have been trying so hard to act like "North African" means light skinned today and throughout history, when it does not. That does not mean everyone on the ancient Nile was all the same complexion or that there weren't plenty of people with varying skin tones from light to dark or even "Eurasian" looking. I am just saying that the preponderance of evidence leans towards a darker skin tone.
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