posted
At page 122 they write (translated into English):
quote: And this is how we were finally able to arrive at an approximation: — height, by bone measurements: 1.72 m, — age, by the state of the bones and teeth: 80 years, — of the race, by the diameters, indices, angles and cranial or facial profiles: a type a priori Berber.
There remained the hair, of exceptional interest because of its state of preservation: fine, supple, slightly wavy in places, of a blond-red color verging on yellowish. Of oval section, and covering all the other anthropometric observations, they are characteristic of the hair of a "cymotrichous leucoderma", close to the Mediterraneans of Prehistory, such as a Berber, of white skin - and not of a Nubian, black-skinned, contrary to what had been maintained for a moment. The microscopic examinations reveal a practically intact morphology and we find red pigments there: it was therefore a real red; it is only at the macro-fibrillar level that some disturbances are detected, probably due to a partial disaggregation of the non-keratinous proteins. . .
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Analyzed by who? Care to provide a source?
I already did here which you purposely avoided :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: They already analyzed his skin and Ramses II was indeed light skinned :
quote: In 1975, the mummy of Ramesses II was taken to France for preservation. The mummy was also forensically tested by Professor Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Professor Ceccaldi determined that: "Hair, astonishingly preserved, showed some complementary data - especially about pigmentation: Ramses II was a ginger haired 'cymnotricheleucoderma'." The description given here refers to a fair-skinned person with wavy ginger hair. [70][71] Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[72] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."[73]
L. Balout and C. Roubet, La momie de Ramsès II : Contribution scientifique à l'égyptologie
quote:Ramses II, as for him, would have had,according to the most recent investigations carried out on his mummy, the milky skin and the ginger hair of the man of the North , which is not surprising since it is well known that his family was born in the Eastern Delta, […]
quote:Sometimes the natural color of the skin can be distinguished in certain places, such as white skin on the mummies of Ramses II and an anonymous royal mummy, according to FOUQUET (1886), who opened their sarcophagus. However, most mummies have a black, charred appearance; this color comes from either a slow organic combustion process or a type of bitumen that hinders examination with the naked eye, which likely came from Mesopotamia and Palestine (CONNAN 1991), just like the embalming resins reserved for the wealthy, which came from Lebanon (LÉCA1976). The blackening effect of "mineral oil" is mentioned in a Roman-era papyrus (N°AE/N5158 from the Louvre) cited by Connan.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: So are you saying that Ramses was Eurasian? Because if so then basically what you are admitting is that you know the depictions represent a black African phenotype. And why would Eurasians who tan depict themselves so consistently dark? This is just a statement of fact you seem to be trying to avoid. Now, for what its worth, I am not trying to say what specific color Ramses had in life, but, the evidence I see from the mummy and the portraits seem to be consistent.
Do you believe that all Eurasians share the same skin color? Do you assume that the average non-exposed skin tone of Egyptians is similar to that of Anglo-Americans, which is typically a pale white complexion?
This reminds me of those afro-americans who got confused regarding an Algerian influencer who appeared much darker due to tanning. Asking if she was a white or black woman XD :
So let's not even start about Upper egyptians. Ramses II would have been genetically predominantly eurasian and morphologically would have been much closer to eurasians than most sub-saharan africans.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It is not red but brown. Most of these "red" images are due to color correction in photoshop. And again, people like to trot these arguments out to explain away the brown color in the artwork.
Red or brown whatever that's exactly the skin tone of most modern egyptians (you're also purposefully omitting the fact that this skin color in egyptian art was conventional and as you highlighted not all egyptians would have been that dark/light).
This color was also used in south european iconography are you going to say that europeans were black and as black as egyptians ?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I posted artwork made by Europeans depicting these people as brown, but I am in denial? Denial of what? Not to mention, I never said anything about Ramses looking like me. You need to stop making up stuff. The point there is more than enough evidence on the ground to support the position that these people were not light skinned in general. And of course that is what bothers you because people have been trying so hard to act like "North African" means light skinned today and throughout history, when it does not. That does not mean everyone on the ancient Nile was all the same complexion or that there weren't plenty of people with varying skin tones from light to dark or even "Eurasian" looking. I am just saying that the preponderance of evidence leans towards a darker skin tone.
The europeans depicted ancient egyptian conventional art and this "brown" color is similar to the skin tone of many modern Egyptians, particularly those from Upper Egypt. This color does not make Egyptians "black" or similar to you.
Why do you bring me while even today north africans like me are much lighter than upper egyptians ? You're further showing how ignorant you are about north africans. Most egyptians today are not even light skinned but "brown" "swarthy" "olive" stop projecting your germano-anglo american experience unto us. North africans like me are much more mediterranean shifted than egyptians and ancient egyptians already used to depict most eastern libyans as lighter than them. Nothing has changed.
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: They already analyzed his skin and Ramses II was indeed light skinned :
quote: In 1975, the mummy of Ramesses II was taken to France for preservation. The mummy was also forensically tested by Professor Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Professor Ceccaldi determined that: "Hair, astonishingly preserved, showed some complementary data - especially about pigmentation: Ramses II was a ginger haired 'cymnotricheleucoderma'." The description given here refers to a fair-skinned person with wavy ginger hair. [70][71] Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[72] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."[73]
L. Balout and C. Roubet, La momie de Ramsès II : Contribution scientifique à l'égyptologie
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: His skin has already been analyzed and found to be light-skinned, regardless of how artistic conventions have portrayed him.
Analyzed by who? Care to provide a source?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: At page 122 they write (translated into English):
Bull. Acad. Natle Méd., 1987, 171, n° 1, 119-127, séance du 27 janvier 1987 Recherches sur les momies Ramsès Il
Pierre-Fernand CECCALDI *, Colette ROUBET * *
quote: And this is how we were finally able to arrive at an approximation: — height, by bone measurements: 1.72 m, — age, by the state of the bones and teeth: 80 years, — of the race, by the diameters, indices, angles and cranial or facial profiles: a type a priori Berber.
There remained the hair, of exceptional interest because of its state of preservation: fine, supple, slightly wavy in places, of a blond-red color verging on yellowish. Of oval section, and covering all the other anthropometric observations, they are characteristic of the hair of a "cymotrichous leucoderma", close to the Mediterraneans of Prehistory, such as a Berber, of white skin - and not of a Nubian, black-skinned, contrary to what had been maintained for a moment. The microscopic examinations reveal a practically intact morphology and we find red pigments there: it was therefore a real red; it is only at the macro-fibrillar level that some disturbances are detected, probably due to a partial disaggregation of the non-keratinous proteins. . .
There is a menu at the bottom where you can change side in the document
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: At page 122 they write (translated into English):
quote: And this is how we were finally able to arrive at an approximation: — height, by bone measurements: 1.72 m, — age, by the state of the bones and teeth: 80 years, — of the race, by the diameters, indices, angles and cranial or facial profiles: a type a priori Berber.
There remained the hair, of exceptional interest because of its state of preservation: fine, supple, slightly wavy in places, of a blond-red color verging on yellowish. Of oval section, and covering all the other anthropometric observations, they are characteristic of the hair of a "cymotrichous leucoderma", close to the Mediterraneans of Prehistory, such as a Berber, of white skin - and not of a Nubian, black-skinned, contrary to what had been maintained for a moment. The microscopic examinations reveal a practically intact morphology and we find red pigments there: it was therefore a real red; it is only at the macro-fibrillar level that some disturbances are detected, probably due to a partial disaggregation of the non-keratinous proteins. . .
There is a menu at the bottom where you can change side in the document
So basically old outdated pseudo-science trying to claim that Ramses was some kind of white blonde. Note however, even here it states:
quote: close to the Mediterraneans of Prehistory, such as a Berber, of white skin -
The Mediterranean coast of Morocco and Algeria are not the same as the people of the Nile Valley. Yet these Europeans constantly invoke "Berbers" and the Mediterranean as some "proxy" for Europeans/Eurasians populating the Nile Valley in ancient pre-history which is not supported by any facts.
Because the indigenous populations of the ancient Nile originated in the South of the Nile and not the Mediterranean. And they know this but they love to keep reiterating these talking points.
Yet the bolded part is key:
quote: and not of a Nubian, black-skinned, contrary to what had been maintained for a moment.
Because in the late 1800s and 1900s this is how they saw Ramses: Crystal Palace Worlds Fair Britain reconstruction of a temple of Ramses:
Which is based on the art from Abu Simbel and the other temples which were excavated and documented by Champollion and others.
So all these arguments aren't new and are based on the age old desire of folks from outside of Africa to claim ancient Nile Valley history as an extension of Eurasia when it is not.
In fact Abu Simbel, Ramses II greatest monument, was likely built on what is now the border of Egypt and Sudan as a celebration of his "Medjay" origins. Which means at some point even the Europeans saw him as even partially of so-called "Nubian" ancestry. Because even then the Medjay were often identified by Egyptology as "Nubian".
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: I already did here which you purposely avoided :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: They already analyzed his skin and Ramses II was indeed light skinned :
quote: In 1975, the mummy of Ramesses II was taken to France for preservation. The mummy was also forensically tested by Professor Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Professor Ceccaldi determined that: "Hair, astonishingly preserved, showed some complementary data - especially about pigmentation: Ramses II was a ginger haired 'cymnotricheleucoderma'." The description given here refers to a fair-skinned person with wavy ginger hair. [70][71] Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[72] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."[73]
L. Balout and C. Roubet, La momie de Ramsès II : Contribution scientifique à l'égyptologie
As I responded to above, that "hair analysis" is not skin analysis. Basically it is trying to say that the hair was "blonde" and therefore his skin was white. Please. It isn't even scientific by modern standards. Not to mention I have already provided the actual Year 400 stela stating point blank that the Ramessid dynasty started with a Chief of the Medjay who worshipped Set from Nubt in Upper Egypt. So that nonsense about Set worship being somehow evidence of Eurasian origins is nonsense.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Ramses II, as for him, would have had,according to the most recent investigations carried out on his mummy, the milky skin and the ginger hair of the man of the North , which is not surprising since it is well known that his family was born in the Eastern Delta, […]
quote:Sometimes the natural color of the skin can be distinguished in certain places, such as white skin on the mummies of Ramses II and an anonymous royal mummy, according to FOUQUET (1886), who opened their sarcophagus. However, most mummies have a black, charred appearance; this color comes from either a slow organic combustion process or a type of bitumen that hinders examination with the naked eye, which likely came from Mesopotamia and Palestine (CONNAN 1991), just like the embalming resins reserved for the wealthy, which came from Lebanon (LÉCA1976). The blackening effect of "mineral oil" is mentioned in a Roman-era papyrus (N°AE/N5158 from the Louvre) cited by Connan.
The person who unwrapped the mummy actually stated that the skin was dark brown with black areas. And that is how it looks to this day, no matter if they try and use fancy lighting effects to make it appear light. I already posted an actual picture of the mummy under normal lighting showing this. So this is just people making up facts. If that was his skin color, then it certainly was not due to a tan.
quote:Gaston Maspero, who first unwrapped the mummy of Ramesses II, writes, "on the temples there are a few sparse hairs, but at the poll the hair is quite thick, forming smooth, straight locks about five centimeters in length. White at the time of death, and possibly auburn during life, they have been dyed a light red by the spices (henna) used in embalming...the moustache and beard are thin...The hairs are white, like those of the head and eyebrows...the skin is of earthy brown, splotched with black... the face of the mummy gives a fair idea of the face of the living king".
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Do you believe that all Eurasians share the same skin color? Do you assume that the average non-exposed skin tone of Egyptians is similar to that of Anglo-Americans, which is typically a pale white complexion?
You keep bringing up Eurasians with no actual proof that any of the Ramessids were "Eurasians". All you keep doing is ignoring facts you don't like in order to promote this nonsense that the Nile Valley is in Eurasia when it is not.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: This reminds me of those afro-americans who got confused regarding an Algerian influencer who appeared much darker due to tanning. Asking if she was a white or black woman XD :
So let's not even start about Upper egyptians. Ramses II would have been genetically predominantly eurasian and morphologically would have been much closer to eurasians than most sub-saharan africans.
When you provide some actual proof of this we can discuss it. I am still waiting for you to provide it. Suffice to say I will stick to the facts.
Year 400 stela documenting the lineage of the Ramessid dynasty:
quote: Year 400, the fourth month of the season of Shammu, the fourth day of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Seth-Great-of-valor, son of Re whom he loves, Nubti [11], beloved by Re-Hor-akhty, may he live for ever.
The Regent came, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the fanbearer on the right hand of the King [7], the leader of the bowmen, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw [8], the great of Medjay [9], the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry the lord master of the ceremonies of the Feast of the He-goat [10], the master of Smendes, the first prophet of Seth, the lector-priest of Wadjet-Opet-Tawy, the head of all priests of all the gods, Seti, right of voice, son of the Prince regent, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw, the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry, Paramesse [12], right of voice, born from the mistress of the house, the songstress of Re, Tiw, right of voice, he says :
Hail to thee, o Seth, son of Nut, great of strength in the boat of millions of years, in the bow of the ship of Re, the great screamer .... .. [ mayest thou ] give me a good time for following [13] your Ka and may I be lasting in ....
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Red or brown whatever that's exactly the skin tone of most modern egyptians (you're also purposefully omitting the fact that this skin color in egyptian art was conventional and as you highlighted not all egyptians would have been that dark/light).
Modern Egyptians are not the same as ancient Egyptians. Some have more ancient ancestry than others of course, but to sit here and argue that all modern Egyptians are representative of the ancients is nonsense.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: This color was also used in south european iconography are you going to say that europeans were black and as black as egyptians ?
Brown skinned Africans are not Eurasians. OK? You are mixing apples and oranges. The Nile Valley is not in Eurasia. No part of it. So we are not talking about depictions of Eurasians when we talk about the images of pharaohs from the Nile Valley in the old middle and new kingdoms. You just keep running away from the facts that the people of the ancient Nile did not depict themselves as light skinned Eurasians. The point is, if these people were Eurasians then all the facts and evidence would line up and they don't. The facts and evidence that do line up shows them as primarily indigenous Africans with a darker skin complexion common to black Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QUOTE]The europeans depicted ancient egyptian conventional art and this "brown" color is similar to the skin tone of many modern Egyptians, particularly those from Upper Egypt. This color does not make Egyptians "black" or similar to you.
European art has nothing to do with this and doesn't make ancient Nile Valley Africans into Eurasians And you are being dishonest because you said specifically that these Eurasians were "light skinned". None of the pharoahs of the Ramessid dynasty depicted themselves that. This is simply a fact and you keep trying to dance around it because you know it isn't a reflection of "light skinned" people. Again, doesnt mean all of them were dark skinned, but obviously if they chose that color, it meant on average that most of them were.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Why do you bring me while even today north africans like me are much lighter than upper egyptians ? You're further showing how ignorant you are about north africans. Most egyptians today are not even light skinned but "brown" "swarthy" "olive" stop projecting your germano-anglo american experience unto us. North africans like me are much more mediterranean shifted than egyptians and ancient egyptians already used to depict most eastern libyans as lighter than them. Nothing has changed.
Again, this is about the depictions that have been well known from the ancient Nile for hundreds of years. You are trying to change the point. If a tomb in the ancient Nile is full of dark brown images with Afros, what on earth explains that other than that is how they looked? And yes, there are some modern Egyptians who match that look. But there are plenty that do not. So this isn't an issue of modern Egypt in general as we know the features vary greatly across Egypt. Again, if they were "light skinned" why would we have such a consistent use of chocolate brown to depict them? It doesn't make sense. And to my point, this is why Rosellini and others depicted the Ramessids in their paintings of the monuments the way they did: as dark brown Africans.
In fact Abu Simbel, Ramses II greatest monument, was likely built on what is now the border of Egypt and Sudan as a celebration of his "Medjay" origins. Which means at some point even the Europeans saw him as even partially of so-called "Nubian" ancestry. Because even then the Medjay were often identified by Egyptology as "Nubian".
Medjay could also mean an occupation, a member of a police force. The name came from the tribe but gradually got to mean a member of that force
quote: By the Eighteenth Dynasty during the New Kingdom, the Medjay were an elite paramilitary police force. No longer did the term refer to an ethnic group, and over time the new meaning became synonymous with policing in general. As an elite force, the Medjay were often used to protect valuable areas, especially areas of pharaonic interest like capital cities, royal cemeteries, and the borders of Egypt. Though they are best known for their protection of the royal palaces and tombs in Thebes and the surrounding areas, the Medjay were used throughout Upper and Lower Egypt. Each regional unit had its own captains. Chiefs of the Medjay are also known from the New Kingdom, but that title is more likely to refer to a person in charge of building and building material procurement.
At first, the group just consisted of ethnic Medjay and those descended from that ancient tribal group. This changed over time as more and more Egyptians took up their occupation. Records show that various Medjay chiefs and captains had Egyptian names and were depicted as such. Why this change occurred is not known, but it is assumed that, because of the Medjay's elite status, Egyptians joined them.
posted
^^^^Yeah Medjai became associated with the police force in the later Dynasties, which IMO probably best explains Ramses "Great of Medjai" title, though Doug is right that Abu Simbel was made to impress the local Nehesy/Upper Egyptians of Ta Seti who protected his borders
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In fact Abu Simbel, Ramses II greatest monument, was likely built on what is now the border of Egypt and Sudan as a celebration of his "Medjay" origins. Which means at some point even the Europeans saw him as even partially of so-called "Nubian" ancestry. Because even then the Medjay were often identified by Egyptology as "Nubian".
Medjay could also mean an occupation, a member of a police force. The name came from the tribe but gradually got to mean a member of that force
quote: By the Eighteenth Dynasty during the New Kingdom, the Medjay were an elite paramilitary police force. No longer did the term refer to an ethnic group, and over time the new meaning became synonymous with policing in general. As an elite force, the Medjay were often used to protect valuable areas, especially areas of pharaonic interest like capital cities, royal cemeteries, and the borders of Egypt. Though they are best known for their protection of the royal palaces and tombs in Thebes and the surrounding areas, the Medjay were used throughout Upper and Lower Egypt. Each regional unit had its own captains. Chiefs of the Medjay are also known from the New Kingdom, but that title is more likely to refer to a person in charge of building and building material procurement.
At first, the group just consisted of ethnic Medjay and those descended from that ancient tribal group. This changed over time as more and more Egyptians took up their occupation. Records show that various Medjay chiefs and captains had Egyptian names and were depicted as such. Why this change occurred is not known, but it is assumed that, because of the Medjay's elite status, Egyptians joined them.
You are right, this isn't a "smoking gun" however the idea here is that as the Medjay were a native force and associated with other Southern Africans, there is no evidence to support Levantine origins for this dynasty. They were following the traditions of dynasties before them which all and restored their connections to the South as the source of the culture and society. Set is a deity that originated in Nubt during the predynastic and therefore they would not be worshipping a Levantine deity as part of repelling Asiatic invaders into the delta. The whole point of the Ramessid dynasty was to bring a strong line of warrior kings to the throne to keep the northern borders safe from Asiatic incursions. Also, part of the reason for the 18th dynasty conquest of the Southern regions was to prevent rebellions and make those areas a permanent part of the kingdom. Because as the term Medjay indicates, many of those groups were key to their military and police force (which means they were elevated members of the society).
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posted
Do you have sources on this, not saying I don't believe you but this is new to me and interesting, Ive never heard this one, I know there was an old theory that Amun was of NHSY origin but I can't find the old sources from back in the day..
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] [QUOTE] Set is a deity that originated in Nubt during the predynastic and therefore they would not be worshipping a Levantine deity
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Do you have sources on this, not saying I don't believe you but this is new to me and interesting, Ive never heard this one, I know there was an old theory that Amun was of NHSY origin but I can't find the old sources from back in the day..
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] [QUOTE] Set is a deity that originated in Nubt during the predynastic and therefore they would not be worshipping a Levantine deity
Set worship originated at Nubt/Naqada and his temples there were excavated by Petrie and documented in the work "Naqada and Ballas". Not ironically it is also in that same text that Petrie references his dynastic race theory. Since that time, various towns became centers of Set worship and often the name of the town would be indicated when invoking the name of the deity. So when you see a stele saying "Set Nubti" it means set of the town of Nubt.
quote: The worship of Seth originally centred at Nubt (Greek Ombos), near present-day Ṭūkh, on the western bank of the Nile River. Nubt, with its vast cemetery at nearby Naqādah, was the principal predynastic centre in Upper Egypt. The town lost its preeminent position with the unification of Egypt about 3050 bce, which was carried out under kings whose capital was Abydos and whose royal god was Horus.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Do you have sources on this, not saying I don't believe you but this is new to me and interesting, Ive never heard this one, I know there was an old theory that Amun was of NHSY origin but I can't find the old sources from back in the day..
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] [QUOTE] Set is a deity that originated in Nubt during the predynastic and therefore they would not be worshipping a Levantine deity
Set worship originated at Nubt/Naqada and his temples there were excavated by Petrie and documented in the work "Naqada and Ballas". Not ironically it is also in that same text that Petrie references his dynastic race theory. Since that time, various towns became centers of Set worship and often the name of the town would be indicated when invoking the name of the deity. So when you see a stele saying "Set Nubti" it means set of the town of Nubt.
quote: The worship of Seth originally centred at Nubt (Greek Ombos), near present-day Ṭūkh, on the western bank of the Nile River. Nubt, with its vast cemetery at nearby Naqādah, was the principal predynastic centre in Upper Egypt. The town lost its preeminent position with the unification of Egypt about 3050 bce, which was carried out under kings whose capital was Abydos and whose royal god was Horus.
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Nubian mercenary buried at Gebelein (late third millennium BCE). (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Gebelein_stela_of_mercenary.jpg)
quote:Colonies of foreign soldiers settled in Egypt provide other clues about the coexistence of different peoples. The inscriptions of some Nubian soldiers settled at Gebelein, south of Luxor, in the very late third millennium BCE show that they were conscious and proud of their Nubian roots .
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] That image is so cherry picked its almost laughable in its dishonesty....
"Neighboring Populations"...Like its almost insulting.
Imagine an Afrocentrist posting the image in reverse or something similar, the whole internet would melt down.
Especially considering how it includes an east Asian among the 'blacks'. The Egyptian with the missing toe wouldn't even be dark enough by that true negro standard.
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Nubian mercenary buried at Gebelein (late third millennium BCE). (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Gebelein_stela_of_mercenary.jpg)
quote:Colonies of foreign soldiers settled in Egypt provide other clues about the coexistence of different peoples. The inscriptions of some Nubian soldiers settled at Gebelein, south of Luxor, in the very late third millennium BCE show that they were conscious and proud of their Nubian roots .
Do you have any of these inscriptions stating "nubian" pride, because I am skeptical as no such "nubia" existed. Yes we know for a fact there was a large influx of soldiers from the South during the middle kingdom as seen in the tomb of Mesehti, but they would not have been integrated into the society and nearly indistinguishable. It wasn't simply one or two mercenaries. Not to mention you have the Prophecy of Neferti also claiming a pharoah would rule from Ta Seti "Land of the Bow". So these kinds of people would have been at all levels of the society throughout the dynastic era.
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: That image is so cherry picked its almost laughable in its dishonesty....
"Neighboring Populations"...Like its almost insulting.
Imagine an Afrocentrist posting the image in reverse or something similar, the whole internet would melt down.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QUOTE]
This color was also used in south european iconography are you going to say that europeans were black and as black as egyptians ?
Antalas is trying to claim that the "reddish brown" of the ancient artwork is some kind of unique characteristic of "Eurasians" in North Africa and unrelated to black Africans. As if all black Africans come in the same complexion and have the same features across Africa.
Here is a better example of populations in Africa matching the customs and features of some ancient artwork and all of them have varying complexions of reddish brown. But no matter the complexion, the main thing is that these people are practicing distinctively African cultural traditions and they have nothing to do with Eurasia.
This isn't simply an issue of skin color, anthropology is about far more than that and includes other characteristics and features including cultural traits as well.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^Yeah Medjai became associated with the police force in the later Dynasties, which IMO probably best explains Ramses "Great of Medjai" title, though Doug is right that Abu Simbel was made to impress the local Nehesy/Upper Egyptians of Ta Seti who protected his borders
Also found some interesting information about Hathor and Sycamores. It seems that two wives of ancient Pharaohs had temples built to them as manifestations of Hathor, all between the 1st and 2nd cataract: Queen Tiye and Nefertari. Not sure if any other such temples have been found anywhere else.
Also the Sycamore tree was often the symbol of Hathor and the tree of love. Hathor was also called Lady of the Sycamore or Lady of the Southern Sycamore. This particular variety of Sycamore primarily being native to Africa south of the Sahel. It is now endangered in Egypt and no longer grows natively there without human cultivation.
quote: Ficus sycomorus is native to Africa south of the Sahel and north of the Tropic of Capricorn, also excluding the central-west rainforest areas. It also grows naturally in Lebanon; in the southern Arabian Peninsula; in Cyprus; in very localised areas in Madagascar; and in Israel, Palestine and Egypt.
quote: Professor al-Mewafy al-Ghadban, responsible for the greenhouse and botanical garden in Egypt’s National Gene Bank, relates how the sycamore tree was introduced to Egypt from the Southern Arabian Peninsula and Ethiopia. “The ancient Egyptians widely cultivated this tree, which they called the “tree of love,” and the fruit, the twig and the wood of the sycamore tree is represented on the tombs of the early, middle and late kingdoms,” he says.
posted
^^^^You don't even need to go into any square inch of land outside of the Nile Valley to find the exact skin tones and features depicted on the Temple Walls in Km.t
Its still found among the Upper Egyptians and Northern Sudanese...Like another poster pointed out the image uses an Asian Negrito, who is not even related genetically to Africans.
Yet, these same people will claim "NeGrItOs ArEnT BlAcK BeCaUsE ThEyRe NoT SsA GeNeTiCaLlY"....then use some sloppy image like that in the same breath...
Nothing but True Negroisim that Afrocentrists use..
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posted
I have a thread that delves into this subject, basically many Elites in Upper Egypt would use NSHY names and worship Ethinic NSHY gods such as those found in Kom Ombos, and build tombs in rock-hewn styles..while still maintaining an Egyptian culture/identity..
Egyptologists will use terms like "Nubian" and "Immigrant" to obfuscate the facts, that these Elites were from the Nome of Ta-Seti, which was a Rival Kingdom to Egypt that was conquered and incorporated into A. Egypt early on after the unification of Upper/Lower Egypt.
all this shows is these Ta Seti Elites, who were once Royals/Sutens in their own rights prior to unification never went away, and still retained their NHSY culture while contributing to A. Egyptian dynastic culture themselves.
Nubian mercenary buried at Gebelein (late third millennium BCE). (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Gebelein_stela_of_mercenary.jpg)
quote:Colonies of foreign soldiers settled in Egypt provide other clues about the coexistence of different peoples. The inscriptions of some Nubian soldiers settled at Gebelein, south of Luxor, in the very late third millennium BCE show that they were conscious and proud of their Nubian roots .
Do you have any of these inscriptions stating "nubian" pride, because I am skeptical as no such "nubia" existed. Yes we know for a fact there was a large influx of soldiers from the South during the middle kingdom as seen in the tomb of Mesehti, but they would not have been integrated into the society and nearly indistinguishable. It wasn't simply one or two mercenaries. Not to mention you have the Prophecy of Neferti also claiming a pharoah would rule from Ta Seti "Land of the Bow". So these kinds of people would have been at all levels of the society throughout the dynastic era.
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What is going on, Antalas just showed an algerian with a deep sun tanned that proved she could get Black and no matter the roots of Black euros is exactly what its supposed to be, They can get as rich tanned and is Black as it seems and not deny that Euros come inside that color This shows these people that is on the frescoes is painted as reddish brown is true to their color and is what the people looked like:
She looks like a person that lived majority inside the Ancient Past of europe and likely is Part of the first europeans and original People of europe
Original Europeans were Black skinned and that cannot be refuted
Be real, no one who is pale skin paints themselves as Reddish brown unless that is what they are Reddish Brown, and the color of skin was higher inside Reddish Brown and you have remnants of europeans today that show it.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] They already analyzed his skin and Ramses II was indeed light skinned :
quote: In 1975, the mummy of Ramesses II was taken to France for preservation. The mummy was also forensically tested by Professor Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Professor Ceccaldi determined that: "Hair, astonishingly preserved, showed some complementary data - especially about pigmentation: Ramses II was a ginger haired 'cymnotricheleucoderma'." The description given here refers to a fair-skinned person with wavy ginger hair. [70][71] Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[72] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."[73]
L. Balout and C. Roubet, La momie de Ramsès II : Contribution scientifique à l'égyptologie
quote:Ramses II, as for him, would have had,according to the most recent investigations carried out on his mummy, the milky skin and the ginger hair of the man of the North , which is not surprising since it is well known that his family was born in the Eastern Delta, […]
quote:Sometimes the natural color of the skin can be distinguished in certain places, such as white skin on the mummies of Ramses II and an anonymous royal mummy, according to FOUQUET (1886), who opened their sarcophagus. However, most mummies have a black, charred appearance; this color comes from either a slow organic combustion process or a type of bitumen that hinders examination with the naked eye, which likely came from Mesopotamia and Palestine (CONNAN 1991), just like the embalming resins reserved for the wealthy, which came from Lebanon (LÉCA1976). The blackening effect of "mineral oil" is mentioned in a Roman-era papyrus (N°AE/N5158 from the Louvre) cited by Connan.
Thats a LIE, Ramses 2nd was shown to be An Black African by Diop that has not been refuted:
quote: We then applied the method to a few Egyptian mummies preserved in the anthropological laboratory of the Musée de l’Homme in Paris
quote: We used the technique of thin sections observed in ultraviolet or natural light
quote: In particular, it would make it possible to analyze the skin of all the royal mummies of the Cairo Museum in perfect state of preservation: Thutmosis III, founder of the XVIIIth dynasty, the conqueror of all Western Asia, Sethi (Seti) I the founder Of the XIXth Dynasty, his son the famous Rameses II.
quote:we can say that such an examination undoubtedly reveals an unknown melanin level in leucoderm races and undoubtedly classifies ancient Egyptians among Africans of Black Africa.
quote:t should be noted at the outset that even today’s Egyptians, after so many millennia of crossbreeding, still belong to the blood group B of the Negroes of West Africa 2 except group A2, except for the present inhabitants of the delta region that have obviously come from elsewhere.
Egyptians not only were shown to be Black African they were also linked to west Africans from blood grouping
Theres also another test done that showed melanin packed mummmies:
quote: Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren Department of Biology I, Biodiversity Research/Anthropology1and Department of Veterinary Anatomy II2, Ludwig-Maximilians University Munich, Germany Submitted January 8, 2002; revised May 4, 2004; accepted August 12, 2004
Abstract During an excavation headed by the German Institute for Archaeology, Cairo, at the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt, three types of tissues from different mummies were sampled to compare 13 well known rehydration methods for mummified tissue with three newly developed methods. Furthermore, three fixatives were tested with each of the rehydration fluids. Meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and a placenta were used for this study. The rehydration and fixation procedures were uniform for all methods.
Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies : meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approxi- mately 1550-1080 BC).
Skin Skin sections showed particularly good tissue preservation, although cellular outlines were never distinct. Although much of the epidermis had already separated from the dermis, the remaining epidermis often was preserved well (Fig. 1).
The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin. In the dermis, the hair follicles, hair, and sebaceous and sweat glands were readily apparent (Fig. 2). Blood vessels, but no red blood cells, and small peripheral nerves were identified unambiguously (Fig. 3). The subcutaneous layer showed loose connective tissue fibers attached to the dermis, and fat cell remnants were observed. To evaluate the influence of postmortum tissue decay by micro-organisms, the samples were tested for the presence of fungi using silver staining.
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7Á/13
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I have a thread that delves into this subject, basically many Elites in Upper Egypt would use NSHY names and worship Ethinic NSHY gods such as those found in Kom Ombos, and build tombs in rock-hewn styles..while still maintaining an Egyptian culture/identity..
Egyptologists will use terms like "Nubian" and "Immigrant" to obfuscate the facts, that these Elites were from the Nome of Ta-Seti, which was a Rival Kingdom to Egypt that was conquered and incorporated into A. Egypt early on after the unification of Upper/Lower Egypt.
all this shows is these Ta Seti Elites, who were once Royals/Sutens in their own rights prior to unification never went away, and still retained their NHSY culture while contributing to A. Egyptian dynastic culture themselves.
Nubian mercenary buried at Gebelein (late third millennium BCE). (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Gebelein_stela_of_mercenary.jpg)
quote:Colonies of foreign soldiers settled in Egypt provide other clues about the coexistence of different peoples. The inscriptions of some Nubian soldiers settled at Gebelein, south of Luxor, in the very late third millennium BCE show that they were conscious and proud of their Nubian roots .
Do you have any of these inscriptions stating "nubian" pride, because I am skeptical as no such "nubia" existed. Yes we know for a fact there was a large influx of soldiers from the South during the middle kingdom as seen in the tomb of Mesehti, but they would not have been integrated into the society and nearly indistinguishable. It wasn't simply one or two mercenaries. Not to mention you have the Prophecy of Neferti also claiming a pharoah would rule from Ta Seti "Land of the Bow". So these kinds of people would have been at all levels of the society throughout the dynastic era.
I understand your point, but what I am saying is that in the ancient art you hardly ever see "coal black" people as various southerners were depicted. Therefore, how do you distinguish someone of southern foreign ancestry from those who were indigenous to the nation. They aren't shown to be much different. This is why I question that assignmant of that particular stela as a "nubian mercenary" as somehow having some 'unique' depiction at this point in the middle kingdom.
posted
No I get what your say brother, in the case of that mercenary, I don't think its the skin color because the man is depicted with light skin, IMO, and Im guessing, but if you read between the lines, Egyptlogists identify NHSY by their names...In my thread, many of the Ta Seti elite were depicted no different than Egyptians, many even had Egyptian names, they would practice certain customs associated with various NHSY tribes Like rock-hewing, or retain a NHSY names, pray to gods from Ta-Seti etc.
That's my guess...but yeah IDK how they're determining its a Nubian Mercenary...unless by his name.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I have a thread that delves into this subject, basically many Elites in Upper Egypt would use NSHY names and worship Ethinic NSHY gods such as those found in Kom Ombos, and build tombs in rock-hewn styles..while still maintaining an Egyptian culture/identity..
Egyptologists will use terms like "Nubian" and "Immigrant" to obfuscate the facts, that these Elites were from the Nome of Ta-Seti, which was a Rival Kingdom to Egypt that was conquered and incorporated into A. Egypt early on after the unification of Upper/Lower Egypt.
all this shows is these Ta Seti Elites, who were once Royals/Sutens in their own rights prior to unification never went away, and still retained their NHSY culture while contributing to A. Egyptian dynastic culture themselves.
Nubian mercenary buried at Gebelein (late third millennium BCE). (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Gebelein_stela_of_mercenary.jpg)
quote:Colonies of foreign soldiers settled in Egypt provide other clues about the coexistence of different peoples. The inscriptions of some Nubian soldiers settled at Gebelein, south of Luxor, in the very late third millennium BCE show that they were conscious and proud of their Nubian roots .
Do you have any of these inscriptions stating "nubian" pride, because I am skeptical as no such "nubia" existed. Yes we know for a fact there was a large influx of soldiers from the South during the middle kingdom as seen in the tomb of Mesehti, but they would not have been integrated into the society and nearly indistinguishable. It wasn't simply one or two mercenaries. Not to mention you have the Prophecy of Neferti also claiming a pharoah would rule from Ta Seti "Land of the Bow". So these kinds of people would have been at all levels of the society throughout the dynastic era.
I understand your point, but what I am saying is that in the ancient art you hardly ever see "coal black" people as various southerners were depicted. Therefore, how do you distinguish someone of southern foreign ancestry from those who were indigenous to the nation. They aren't shown to be much different. This is why I question that assignmant of that particular stela as a "nubian mercenary" as somehow having some 'unique' depiction at this point in the middle kingdom.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: No I get what your say brother, in the case of that mercenary, I don't think its the skin color because the man is depicted with light skin, IMO, and Im guessing, but if you read between the lines, Egyptlogists identify NHSY by their names...In my thread, many of the Ta Seti elite were depicted no different than Egyptians, many even had Egyptian names, they would practice certain customs associated with various NHSY tribes Like rock-hewing, or retain a NHSY names, pray to gods from Ta-Seti etc.
That's my guess...but yeah IDK how they're determining its a Nubian Mercenary...unless by his name.
I don't want to sideline this thread too much but here is a paper discussing the "nubian" mercenaries at gebelien and the only evidence they can point to is those stelae. Other than that in burials and art there is nothing to distinguish who was and wasn't "nubian".
And to may point, this just means there wasn't much of a distinction to begin with, especially if we are talking of populations closer to the 1st and 2nd cataracts as opposed to much further South. But using the term "nubia" just obfuscates the fact that there were different groups all along the Nile from the 1st cataract through Sudan. And not only that in this era you had the prophecy of Neferti also referring to Ta Seti and 'land of the bow' but they don't call that a reference to "Nubia". Also, I believe I have called out before someone named Ankhtifi who was a key player in the region and who would have been the one who employed these mercenaries.
quote: nkhtifi was Nomarch (Governor) of the 3rd Nome of Upper Egypt in the turbulent times of an era known as the 1st Intermediate Period ( c 2100 BC ). A time of famine, unrest and anarchy was spread across the land. The fundamental cause, many believe, for the collapse of the Old Kingdom.
A haunting tomb (sadly much defaced ) although there are many wonderful wall paintings, colors I cannot recall seeing in such profusion in any other provincial tomb, excepting Elephantine. It is an artistic style that appeared to me unique.
The text is partly autobiographical, extolling Ankhtifis beneficence in a time of great hardship, how he opened his granaries to feed the starving. Furthermore how he and his Valiant Band brought defeat upon the Overlord of Edfu.
An excerpt from the Tomb inscription reads as follows.
I am the Vanguard of the men the Rearguard of the men. One who finds the solution where it is lacking. A leader of the land through active conduct . Strong in speech , collected in thought, on the day of joining the 3 Nomes (Hieraconpolis , Edfu , allied with Elephantine) . For I am without Peer , who spoke out when people were silent , on the day of fear when Upper Egypt was silent. (1).
https://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/ank.htm The key here is that before the Middle Kingdom there are no depictions of so called "Nubians" in AE art likely due to things being relatively peaceful. But during the 1st intermediate period there was a civil war and probably many southern troops (mercenaries or whatever) from to the south of Aswan were involved as seen in the models of archers from tombs of the period, like that of Mesehti. This may have helped to usher in those Uakha lines into power via the prophecy of Neferti and so forth.
And this goes back to how arbitrary and inconsistent they can be with these distinctions. In the case of the Ramessids you have "leader of the bowmen" and "great of the medjay" and "set of Nubti" as part of the titles for Ramses 1 but somehow that means nothing in terms of Southern origins.....
Either way I basically am in agreement with you, just asking if they actually have a way of making such distinctions. And the other thread you created is a classic no doubt.
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-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2701 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] No I get what your say brother, in the case of that mercenary, I don't think its the skin color because the man is depicted with light skin, IMO, and Im guessing, but if you read between the lines, Egyptlogists identify NHSY by their names...In my thread, many of the Ta Seti elite were depicted no different than Egyptians, many even had Egyptian names, they would practice certain customs associated with various NHSY tribes Like rock-hewing, or retain a NHSY names, pray to gods from Ta-Seti etc.
That's my guess...but yeah IDK how they're determining its a Nubian Mercenary...unless by his name.
They say it's based on their names and the way they were depicted :
quote:Similarly, from the First Intermediate Period onwards, evidence from steles suggests that Gebelein had a colony of Nubian mercenaries (Zakrzewski 2001). For example, some steles, such as Boston MFA03.1848 ( which specifically calls the individual depicted “Nehesy” , the ancient Egyptian name for Nubians (Kendall 1997)) and Leiden F 1938/1.6, suggest that Nubian mercenaries had married Egyptian women (Fischer, 1961). These steles from Gebelein indicate that Nubians lived with, and were buried near the Egyptian community they served, and although they were buried in an Egyptian manner,they were still depicted as Nubian , thus retaining their ethnic identity.
Sonia Zakrzewski, Behind Every Mask There is a Face,and Behind That a Story.Egyptian Bioarchaeology and Ancient Identities,in: Egyptian Bioarchaeology:Humans, Animals, and the Environment, Sidestone Press, 2015
Now make the link with those results which show that a MK series from Gebelein was very heterogeneous because of the integration of nubian mercenaries :
quote:Figure 2 indicates that, despite the small sample size, craniometric heterogeneity is found as the MK individuals are placed in all quadrants of the plot. Furthermore, discriminant functions [...] Interestingly, the only other sample deriving from Gebelein, an EPD sample, was found to be significantly biologically distant to the MK sample (Table 7). This result suggests that there is no simple biological population continuity at Gebelein. Stele indicate that Nubian mercenaries lived, married, died, and were buried at this site over the MK period (Fischer, 1961). Previous research has suggested that this sample may include some of these Nubians (Zakrzewski, 2003). If Nubians had been integrated into the Egyptian population in the MK but not in preceding periods, then one would expect to see higher phenotypic variance in the MK than in the EDyn and OK.
Sonia R. Zakrzewski, population continuity or population change : formation of the ancient egyptian state, 2007
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posted
^^^Are there stele with so called Nubians depicted, the man above looks no different than Egyptians..
Also that statement in that study is inconclusive and is guesswork by the author not based on facts, kinda weird you're making sweeping statements off something so baseless.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] ^^^Are there stele with so called Nubians depicted, the man above looks no different than Egyptians..
Here :
quote:Nehesi appear on so called ‘Nubian stelae’ found at Gebelein (e.g. Turin Supp. 1273) itself and thenecropolis of er-Rizeiqat (e.g. CG 1612). The stelae from which they are known today are the result ofcultural interactions between Nubians and Egyptians. Their form is Egyptian and they incorporate typical Egyptian ways of presenting the human body but with the addition of Nubian details in their appearance, such as typical Nubian bushy hair, a complexion darker than a native Egyptian, anda sash around the waist tied at the back. The stelae are executed in a distinctive style, sometimes with very basic finishing, described by scholars as crude and rough (e.g. Fisher 1961; Rosati 2004). But there was also a second workshop in the region, which was producing higher quality stelae for the army commanders and the local elite (Kubisch 2000). The composition of the latter group follows traditional Egyptian artistic conventions. The workshop that was producing for the Nubian soldiers is more interesting because it presents subjects in a more relaxed manner, leaving moreopportunity for individuality, self-expression, and innovation. This gave to the Nubians a mediumthrough which they could express how they saw themselves in relation to Egyptian culture
quote:There is no doubt about the ethnicity of many of the owners of the stelae because they are called Nehesy in the accompanying hieroglyphic text. But in some cases, the situation is not that clear. Nubians sometimes bear Egyptian names and clothes. Some soldiers are depicted with Egyptian-looking consorts,who bear Egyptian names but the complexion of their skin and the ethnic term Nehesi indicates Nubian descent. In other cases only the word Nehesi indicates their ancestry. Four stelae will serve as examples of the complexity of the situation in the region.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Also that statement in that study is inconclusive and is guesswork by the author not based on facts, kinda weird you're making sweeping statements off something so baseless.
Since you're a specialist and know better than them how would you explain this heterogeneity ?
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So basically they're using the fact that these soldiers used NHSY names as the main point of their conclusion, Like I said earlier. Hell even they admit its not clear and ambiguous. Were the soldiers depicted with black skin and bushy hair, sure but where are the examples...do you have photos? The image above has typical hair/skin seen on Egyptians...
quote:OSince you're a specialist and know better than them how would you explain this heterogeneity ?
Where did I make such claims....Im simply reporting the facts from the paper itself...
Here is the part of the paper that you left out after quote mining..
quote:If Nubians had been inte-grated into the Egyptian population in the MK but not in preceding periods, then one would expect to see higher phenotypic variance in the MK than in the EDyn and OK.
This cannot be ascertained from the current analysis, but must remain a topic for future research.
Id agree with you that the NHSY would have introduced variation into that area, esp. if they came from below the 3rd/4th Cataracts ..but the papet does'nt claim that. So again who is pretending to be a specialist that "Knows better than them"...
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: So basically they're using the fact that these soldiers used NHSY names as the main point of their conclusion, Like I said earlier. Hell even they admit its not clear and ambiguous. Were the soldiers depicted with black skin and bushy hair, sure but where are the examples...do you have photos? The image above has typical hair/skin seen on Egyptians...
Go read the paper since there are other hints and some examples of those stelae are in the paper itself which you haven't checked.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Where did I make such claims....Im simply reporting the facts from the paper itself...
Here is the part of the paper that you left out after quote mining..
quote:If Nubians had been inte-grated into the Egyptian population in the MK but not in preceding periods, then one would expect to see higher phenotypic variance in the MK than in the EDyn and OK.
This cannot be ascertained from the current analysis, but must remain a topic for future research.
Id agree with you that the NHSY would have introduced variation into that area, esp. if they came from below the 3rd/4th Cataracts ..but the papet does'nt claim that. So again who is pretending to be a specialist that "Knows better than them"... [/QB]
I didn't make a statement, I simply suggested cross-checking the information. Anthropological data could provide additional support to theories put forth by historians. Zakrzewski has offered a plausible explanation, and if you have a different viewpoint, please propose an alternative explanation.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Go read the paper since there are other hints and some examples of those stelae are in the paper itself which you haven't checked.
So basically you wont provide the evidence...got it. The paper itself proves that the evidence is ambiguous. For sure there was NHSY mercenaries in the area but it was'nt as clear cut it seems the cultures blended.
quote:I didn't make a statement, I simply suggested cross-checking the information. Anthropological data could provide additional support to theories put forth by historians. Zakrzewski has offered a plausible explanation, and if you have a different viewpoint, please propose an alternative explanation. [/QB]
I don't need to give alternative explanations, Im happy letting the evidence speak for itself, and Zarzweski's hypothesis is based on the premise that so called Nubians were introduced and integrated in Geblin ONLY during the Middle Kingdom, Which Contradicts what the paper you posted says based on the archeological record, that Geblin ALWAYS had a so called Nubian and Egyptian population....
Here is what she said
quote:If Nubians had been integrated into the Egyptian population in the MK but not in preceding periods, then one would expect to see higher phenotypic variance in the MK than in the EDyn and OK.[/b]
Sonia R. Zakrzewski, population continuity or population change : formation of the ancient egyptian state, 2007[/QUOTE]
Yet the archeological paper says...
quote:Region of two cultures Due to Gebelein location in the southern part of Egypt and on the crossroads of desert as well as valley tracks, the region was nearly always populated by Egyptians and people who are related to Nubia in scholarly literature but actually they were living in Egypt (possibly for many generations). Furthermore, Nubians and Egyptians can be regarded as indigenous populations of the Gebelein region.
So again who is not reading papers and pretending to be an expert...
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The paper itself proves that the evidence is ambiguous. For sure there was NHSY mercenaries in the area but it was'nt as clear cut it seems the cultures blended.
Who denied this ? Still it does not contradict the presence of nubian mercenaries or settlers.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I didn't make a statement, I simply suggested cross-checking the information. Anthropological data could provide additional support to theories put forth by historians. Zakrzewski has offered a plausible explanation, and if you have a different viewpoint, please propose an alternative explanation. [/QB]I don't need to give alternative explanations, Im happy letting the evidence speak for itself, and Zarzweski's hypothesis is based on the premise that so called Nubians were introduced and integrated in Geblin ONLY during the Middle Kingdom, Which Contradicts what the paper you posted says based on the archeological record, that Geblin ALWAYS had a so called Nubian and Egyptian population....
Here is what she said
quote:If Nubians had been integrated into the Egyptian population in the MK but not in preceding periods, then one would expect to see higher phenotypic variance in the MK than in the EDyn and OK.[/b]
Sonia R. Zakrzewski, population continuity or population change : formation of the ancient egyptian state, 2007
Yet the archeological paper says...
quote:Region of two cultures Due to Gebelein location in the southern part of Egypt and on the crossroads of desert as well as valley tracks, the region was nearly always populated by Egyptians and people who are related to Nubia in scholarly literature but actually they were living in Egypt (possibly for many generations). Furthermore, Nubians and Egyptians can be regarded as indigenous populations of the Gebelein region.
So again who is not reading papers and pretending to be an expert...
[/QB]
So you assume that it continuously received the same amount of nubian settlers ? Seems like you're not even aware that the only other sample from Gebelein in that paper is from the early predynastic...
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posted
Im not assuming anything, I never made one conclusion about Geblin, YOU DID after quote mining Zarzewski.
You can keep trying to dig yourself out of the hole you made...but once again from the paper you posted...
quote:Region of two cultures Due to Gebelein location in the southern part of Egypt and on the crossroads of desert as well as valley tracks, the region was nearly always populated by Egyptians and people who are related to Nubia in scholarly literature but actually they were living in Egypt (possibly for many generations). Furthermore, Nubians and Egyptians can be regarded as indigenous populations of the Gebelein region.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [qb]
[QUOTE]So you assume that it continuously received the same amount of nubian settlers ? Seems like you're not even aware that the only other sample from Gebelein in that paper is from the early predynastic..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: It seems that the Nubians have slightly different facial features though.
One interesting detail is that the black Nubians have red hair and the brown ones have yellow hair. Is it decorative or symbolic? Is it thought to illustrate two different groups of Nubians?
This issue was covered before, but the main reason for the difference in skin tones for these foreign Africans was simply due to the convention of distinguishing individual figures since if they were all depicted in the same jet black tone the bodies would look more meshed and indistinguishable. However, I believe another reason would be the simple fact that there were tribes of lighter tone similar to Ramesses and other Egyptians. Note how this lighter tone including that or Ramesses is the same as the horses which is a reddish dark brown tone.
You are correct about their facial features. In fact due to their facial features and attire, I seriously doubt these soldiers are actual ethnic Nubians but Africans further south who were under Nubian control. This is another issue that I've brought up time and again. 'Nubia' and specifically Kush was an empire before the ascendancy of the Egyptian New Kingdom. Many of the African foes depicted in New Kingdom art with stereotypical 'Sub-Saharan' features were in fact Sub-Saharans that were under the hegemony of Kush. This is why there is a common fallacy to identify every African enemy of Egypt as "Nubian" when they are not actually Nubian.
As for the hair colors, these are not symbolic either since the practice of dying hair red with ochre or blonde with a cattle urine solution is still practiced by many Nilotic tribes today.
Here are actual Nubian/Kushite royals.
^ Note their facial features are the same as the Egyptians and this is verified by cranial studies which even Antalas likes to cite but according to him this must mean Nubians aren't black either even though all academics say otherwise, and even academia is starting to admit Egyptians were black also.
Posts: 26260 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: It seems that the Nubians have slightly different facial features though.
One interesting detail is that the black Nubians have red hair and the brown ones have yellow hair. Is it decorative or symbolic? Is it thought to illustrate two different groups of Nubians?
This issue was covered before, but the main reason for the difference in skin tones for these foreign Africans was simply due to the convention of distinguishing individual figures since if they were all depicted in the same jet black tone the bodies would look more meshed and indistinguishable. However, I believe another reason would be the simple fact that there were tribes of lighter tone similar to Ramesses and other Egyptians. Note how this lighter tone including that or Ramesses is the same as the horses which is a reddish dark brown tone.
You are correct about their facial features. In fact due to their facial features and attire, I seriously doubt these soldiers are actual ethnic Nubians but Africans further south who were under Nubian control. This is another issue that I've brought up time and again. 'Nubia' and specifically Kush was an empire before the ascendancy of the Egyptian New Kingdom. Many of the African foes depicted in New Kingdom art with stereotypical 'Sub-Saharan' features were in fact Sub-Saharans that were under the hegemony of Kush. This is why there is a common fallacy to identify every African enemy of Egypt as "Nubian" when they are not actually Nubian.
As for the hair colors, these are not symbolic either since the practice of dying hair red with ochre or blonde with a cattle urine solution is still practiced by many Nilotic tribes today.
Here are actual Nubian/Kushite royals.
^ Note their facial features are the same as the Egyptians and this is verified by cranial studies which even Antalas likes to cite but according to him this must mean Nubians aren't black either even though all academics say otherwise, and even academia is starting to admit Egyptians were black also.
Africians are diverse and without going way off topic, Africans vary in skin tones and features even in one part of Africa. Sudan has many ethnic groups and all of them are not coal black. Some are brown and some certainly have feature similar to the leather loincloth wearing Africans, such as the Nuba. I don't see that as necessarily "sub Saharan". All across the Nile from Upper Egypt to Ethiopia there are a wide variety of African features that includes everything seen in most of the art depicting both Ramses and other Africans.
Posts: 8896 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: His skin has already been analyzed and found to be light-skinned, regardless of how artistic conventions have portrayed him...
Sources? I have not been made aware of any analysis on Ramesses skin color only his hair color. A study years ago shows that the reddish blonde hue of his hair is simply due to the fact that the eumelanin of his hair was completely broken down due to age and/or embalming leaving only the phaelomelanin. Such hair color is not uncommon among elderly (black) Africans.
modern Beja man and predynastic Naqada man from Gebelein nicknamed "Ginger"
quote:Secondly, many Eurasians, particularly those from North Africa, can tan, which DougM may not be familiar with because most of the "white" people he has encountered in his life are from Northwestern Europe and live in North America. Lastly, the red skin tone depicted in these artworks can be found almost everywhere in modern-day North Africa and the color of the mummy as I've shown is due to the mummification process.
LMAO Sorry but the dark mahogany brown color common to Egyptians is NOT a tan. Unless the African enemies who share the same complexion are also "tanned".
I guess these modern Egyptians who preserve this color are tanned too.
Also, you claim that the dark coloration of the mummy is due to mummification process yet in other threads you used the light coloring of some other mummies as proof of them being non-black even as if mummified skin preserves its original complexion! LOL You are inconsistent and self-contradicting as usual.
quote:Individuals like DougM are frequently in denial and hold the belief that all Africans must resemble them. Literally an afro-american of west african descent with a tropically adapted body thinks people who live further north at the gate of Asia have to look like him or else it's a conspiracy to hide the glory of black folks.
You keep repeating the same STRAWDOLL LIE that NOBODY in this forum not even Doug has ever claimed! Meanwhile YOU are the one insisting that the ancient Egyptians resemble modern white coastal Maghrebis like yourself! Not only is this hypocrisy, but a severe form of psychological projection. This is why I say you need professional mental help.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26260 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Im not assuming anything, I never made one conclusion about Geblin, YOU DID after quote mining Zarzewski.
You can keep trying to dig yourself out of the hole you made...but once again from the paper you posted...
quote:Region of two cultures Due to Gebelein location in the southern part of Egypt and on the crossroads of desert as well as valley tracks, the region was nearly always populated by Egyptians and people who are related to Nubia in scholarly literature but actually they were living in Egypt (possibly for many generations). Furthermore, Nubians and Egyptians can be regarded as indigenous populations of the Gebelein region.
Again how does that contradict the idea of gebelein receiving lots of nubian settlers/mercenaries during a particular period ? The craniometric data show heterogeneity so it wasn't one homogeneous population and many burials show nubian influences.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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^ Note their facial features are the same as the Egyptians and this is verified by cranial studies which even Antalas likes to cite but according to him this must mean Nubians aren't black either even though all academics say otherwise, and even academia is starting to admit Egyptians were black also. [/QB]
What sort of nonsensical argument is being made here? In terms of facial structure, Lower Nubians and Horners share similarities with Eurasians (including North Africans), and they are genetically more closely related to us. Studies have shown that Nubians have a significant amount of Eurasian ancestry, as demonstrated by the Kulubnarti and Kadruka specimens. From the available data, it appears that Nubians have more sub-Saharan African ancestry than Egyptians, and there is no credible evidence or academic support for the notion that Egyptians were "black."
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Sources? I have not been made aware of any analysis on Ramesses skin color only his hair color. A study years ago shows that the reddish blonde hue of his hair is simply due to the fact that the eumelanin of his hair was completely broken down due to age and/or embalming leaving only the phaelomelanin. Such hair color is not uncommon among elderly (black) Africans.
The source has already been posted. Here :
Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi et Colette Roubet, Recherches sur les momies Ramsès II, Bull. Acad. Natle Méd., 1987, 171, n° 1
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: LMAO Sorry but the dark mahogany brown color common to Egyptians is NOT a tan. Unless the African enemies who share the same complexion are also "tanned".
I guess these modern Egyptians who preserve this color are tanned too.
Are you saying that egyptians/lower nubians cannot tan ?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Also, you claim that the dark coloration of the mummy is due to mummification process yet in other threads you used the light coloring of some other mummies as proof of them being non-black even as if mummified skin preserves its original complexion! LOL You are inconsistent and self-contradicting as usual.
Are you saying that all parts of the skin were equally affected ?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: You keep repeating the same STRAWDOLL LIE that NOBODY in this forum not even Doug has ever claimed! Meanwhile YOU are the one insisting that the ancient Egyptians resemble modern white coastal Maghrebis like yourself! Not only is this hypocrisy, but a severe form of psychological projection. This is why I say you need professional mental help.
You literally contradicted yourself the other day and fled. Claiming that "black" is only a "color descriptor" and then talking about "black ancestry and features" XD
Moreover why do you constantly lie about what I said or claimed ? I never said that egyptians looked like us.
If I did can you explain why in this own thread I said this :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Why do you bring me while even today north africans like me are much lighter than upper egyptians ? You're further showing how ignorant you are about north africans. Most egyptians today are not even light skinned but "brown" "swarthy" "olive" stop projecting your germano-anglo american experience unto us. North africans like me are much more mediterranean shifted than egyptians and ancient egyptians already used to depict most eastern libyans as lighter than them. Nothing has changed. [/QB]
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: Sources? I have not been made aware of any analysis on Ramesses skin color only his hair color. A study years ago shows that the reddish blonde hue of his hair is simply due to the fact that the eumelanin of his hair was completely broken down due to age and/or embalming leaving only the phaelomelanin. Such hair color is not uncommon among elderly (black) Africans.
The source has already been posted. Here :
Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi et Colette Roubet, Recherches sur les momies Ramsès II, Bull. Acad. Natle Méd., 1987, 171, n° 1
[QUOTE]
And you have failed to understand diop and his method of reading the skin that showed the mummies as having Black African skin.
Thats a LIE, Ramses 2nd was shown to be An Black African by Diop that has not been refuted:
quote: We then applied the method to a few Egyptian mummies preserved in the anthropological laboratory of the Musée de l’Homme in Paris quote: We used the technique of thin sections observed in ultraviolet or natural light quote: In particular, it would make it possible to analyze the skin of all the royal mummies of the Cairo Museum in perfect state of preservation: Thutmosis III, founder of the XVIIIth dynasty, the conqueror of all Western Asia, Sethi (Seti) I the founder Of the XIXth Dynasty, his son the famous Rameses II . quote: we can say that such an examination undoubtedly reveals an unknown melanin level in leucoderm races and undoubtedly classifies ancient Egyptians among Africans of Black Africa. quote: t should be noted at the outset that even today’s Egyptians, after so many millennia of crossbreeding, still belong to the blood group B of the Negroes of West Africa 2 except group A2, except for the present inhabitants of the delta region that have obviously come from elsewhere. https://keyamsha.com/2017/04/10/the-melanin-dosage-test-by-cheikh-anta-diop/
Egyptians not only were shown to be Black African they were also linked to west Africans from blood grouping
Theres also another test done that showed melanin packed mummmies:
quote: Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren Department of Biology I, Biodiversity Research/Anthropology1and Department of Veterinary Anatomy II2, Ludwig-Maximilians University Munich, Germany Submitted January 8, 2002; revised May 4, 2004; accepted August 12, 2004
Abstract During an excavation headed by the German Institute for Archaeology, Cairo, at the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt, three types of tissues from different mummies were sampled to compare 13 well known rehydration methods for mummified tissue with three newly developed methods. Furthermore, three fixatives were tested with each of the rehydration fluids. Meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and a placenta were used for this study. The rehydration and fixation procedures were uniform for all methods.
Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies : meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approxi- mately 1550-1080 BC).
Skin Skin sections showed particularly good tissue preservation, although cellular outlines were never distinct. Although much of the epidermis had already separated from the dermis, the remaining epidermis often was preserved well (Fig. 1).
The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin. [Big Grin] In the dermis, the hair follicles, hair, and sebaceous and sweat glands were readily apparent (Fig. 2). Blood vessels, but no red blood cells, and small peripheral nerves were identified unambiguously (Fig. 3). The subcutaneous layer showed loose connective tissue fibers attached to the dermis, and fat cell remnants were observed. To evaluate the influence of postmortum tissue decay by micro-organisms, the samples were tested for the presence of fungi using silver staining.
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7Á/13
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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The source KING posted does not say that Ramses II was tested in that way, it only says that the method Diop used made it possible to test also mummies like Ramses II
quote: We then applied the method to a few Egyptian mummies preserved in the anthropological laboratory of the Musée de l’Homme in Paris, thanks to the kindness of Mrs. CHAMLA, head of the department, and her aides. We used the technique of thin sections observed in ultraviolet or natural light
quote: In particular, it would make it possible to analyze the skin of all the royal mummies of the Cairo Museum in perfect state of preservation: Thutmosis III, founder of the XVIIIth dynasty, the conqueror of all Western Asia, Sethi (Seti) I the founder Of the XIXth Dynasty, his son the famous Rameses II. The game would be worth the candle, and that’s why I tried to get samples to analyze. The Curator of the Cairo Museum, Dr. RYAD (Riyadh?), had promised to send me, but I have been waiting for more than a year.
So according to his text there was no such test made on Ramses, at least not when he wrote that article.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2686 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The source KING posted does not say that Ramses II was tested in that way, it only says that the method Diop used made it possible to test also mummies like Ramses II
quote: We then applied the method to a few Egyptian mummies preserved in the anthropological laboratory of the Musée de l’Homme in Paris, thanks to the kindness of Mrs. CHAMLA, head of the department, and her aides. We used the technique of thin sections observed in ultraviolet or natural light
quote: In particular, it would make it possible to analyze the skin of all the royal mummies of the Cairo Museum in perfect state of preservation: Thutmosis III, founder of the XVIIIth dynasty, the conqueror of all Western Asia, Sethi (Seti) I the founder Of the XIXth Dynasty, his son the famous Rameses II. The game would be worth the candle, and that’s why I tried to get samples to analyze. The Curator of the Cairo Museum, Dr. RYAD (Riyadh?), had promised to send me, but I have been waiting for more than a year.
So according to his text there was no such test made on Ramses, at least not when he wrote that article.
What are you talking about it says the mummies including Ramses was tested and were seeing to be Black Africans right here:
quote: we can say that such an examination undoubtedly reveals an unknown melanin level in leucoderm races and undoubtedly classifies ancient Egyptians among Africans of Black Africa. quote:
It said they classified ancient Egyptians as Black African due to melanin dosage
it also states that Ancient Egypt is part of Blood groupings that link them to west Africa
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
But it did not say that they made a melanin test on Ramses II. Diop actually says that when he wrote his article he had not access to the royal mummies in Cairo for such a test.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2686 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: But it did not say that they made a melanin test on Ramses II. Diop actually says that when he wrote his article he had not access to the royal mummies in Cairo for such a test.
what are you talking about it says they did melanin dosage on ramses, seti and thutmosis
quote: In particular, it would make it possible to analyze the skin of all the royal mummies of the Cairo Museum in perfect state of preservation: Thutmosis III , founder of the XVIIIth dynasty, the conqueror of all Western Asia, Sethi (Seti) I the founder Of the XIXth Dynasty, his son the famous Rameses II .
and then the concluded with the melanin dosage that shows the mummies were Deeply enriched with melanin that links them to Black Africa
quote: we can say that such an examination undoubtedly reveals an unknown melanin level in leucoderm races and undoubtedly classifies ancient Egyptians among Africans of Black Africa.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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