posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:






Personally I don't see why Seti I wouldn't be well liked. After the ritual calamity that Akhenaten caused at the end of the 18th dynasty with his Aten cult as well as neglect in foreign policy, it was Seti who reconciled with the Amun priesthood, as well as secure Egyptians control in both the Levant and Nubia, though he ceded some of the former territory with the Hittites.

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Posts: 80 | From: USA, America | Registered: May 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:

That you for posting pictures, I don’t know what went wrong as to why they aren’t showing up on my OP. But that’s interesting information.

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quote:

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About the Egyptians control over Nubia, what was the relationship like? I imagine there was a lot of fighting and revolts going on. Any other information?

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Egypt has always had rivalry with Nubia which was by the way a region and NOT a state or polity though various polities have existed there. For example when the first Egyptian proto-state of Ta-Shemau formed in Upper Egypt, there was an equally old if not older state of Ta-Seti that formed in Lower Nubia but culturally included groups in southern Upper Egypt. After Ta-Shemau conquered Ta-Mehu (Lower Egypt) they defeated Ta-Seti and assimilated many of their populace into southern Upper Egypt which is the 1st nome in Upper Egypt was called Ta-Seti. During the Middle Kingdom there were Setiu remnants in Lower Nubia that wanted revenge and even had assassination attempts on the 12th dynasty kings which is why the king forbade Nubians from entering Egypt except to do trade. Then when a new Kushite kingdom of Kerma formed in Upper Nubia and created its own empire there, they made several devastating raids on Egypt and by the time of the 17th dynasty conquered the southern part of Upper Egypt.



While the Hyksos held the Delta. The Kushite king even made a deal with the Hyksos king to split Egypt between them which lead to the Theban 18th dynasty war on two fronts to create the New Kingdom Empire. So the empire was created as a defense against foreign aggression on native Egyptians both Asiatics and Nubians.

quote:

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Also, btw, I noticed some things about the mummies as well, like they start to show more near eastern type characteristics. For example, the nose shape and angular jawlines.

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It's a common assumption that they may be of Asiatic descent but Seti's family that founded the 19th and 20th dynasties originated in the Delta, and while Ramesside kings of the 20th dynasty did marry many Asiatic princesses, there is no evidence to suggest that they were Asiatic themselves. In fact, features like large skulls and aquiline noses are not uncommon among native Delta Egyptians, though there's no doubt connections to Neolithic peoples of the Levant.

See Description and Analysis of X-ray Images from X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies

XVIV Dynasty

Seti I


Father: Ramesses I, Mother: Queen Sitre
Projecting, arched glabella. Zygomatic arches are rather forward giving prominent cheekbones. Very straight upper incisors; receding chin; moderately steep mandible and broad ramus. Sloping, rather flattened forehead. Occipital region is similar to Pharaohs of XVIII Dynasty.

Conclusions:
..In summation, the New Kingdom Pharaohs and Queens whose mummies have been recovered bear strong similarity to either contemporary Nubians, as with the XVII and XVIII dynasties, or with Mesolithic-Holocene Nubians, as with the XVIV and XX dynasties. The former dynasties seem to have a strong southern affinity, while the latter possessed evidence of mixing with modern Mediterranean types and also, possibly, with remnants of the old Tasian and Natufian populations. From the few sample available from the XXI Dynasty, there may have been a new infusion from the south at this period.

Some recent genetic evidence has disproved the theory of admixture and shows that these features are indigenous.

--------------------
Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:

That you for posting pictures, I don’t know what went wrong as to why they aren’t showing up on my OP. But that’s interesting information.

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You forgot to put / at the end of the tag ex: [/img]. Also the first pic had % character which the url code doesn't allow.

quote:

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About the Egyptians control over Nubia, what was the relationship like? I imagine there was a lot of fighting and revolts going on. Any other information?

---

Egypt has always had rivalry with Nubia which was by the way a region and NOT a state or polity though various polities have existed there. For example when the first Egyptian proto-state of Ta-Shemau formed in Upper Egypt, there was an equally old if not older state of Ta-Seti that formed in Lower Nubia but culturally included groups in southern Upper Egypt. After Ta-Shemau conquered Ta-Mehu (Lower Egypt) they defeated Ta-Seti and assimilated many of their populace into southern Upper Egypt which is the 1st nome in Upper Egypt was called Ta-Seti. During the Middle Kingdom there were Setiu remnants in Lower Nubia that wanted revenge and even had assassination attempts on the 12th dynasty kings which is why the king forbade Nubians from entering Egypt except to do trade. Then when a new Kushite kingdom of Kerma formed in Upper Nubia and created its own empire there, they made several devastating raids on Egypt and by the time of the 17th dynasty conquered the southern part of Upper Egypt.



While the Hyksos held the Delta. The Kushite king even made a deal with the Hyksos king to split Egypt between them which lead to the Thebant 18th dynasty war on two fronts to create the New Kingdom Empire. So the empire was created as a defense against foreign aggression on native Egyptians both Asiatics and Nubians.

quote:

---

Also, btw, I noticed some things about the mummies as well, like they start to show more near eastern type characteristics. For example, the nose shape and angular jawlines.

---

It's a common assumption that they may be of Asiatic descent but Seti's family that founded the 19th and 20th dynasties originated in the Delta, and while Ramesside kings of the 20th dynasty did marry many Asiatic princesses, there is no evidence to suggest that they were Asiatic themselves. In fact, features like large skulls and aquiline noses are not uncommon among native Delta Egyptians, though there's no doubt connections to Neolithic peoples of the Levant.

See Description and Analysis of X-ray Images from X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies

XVIV Dynasty

Seti I


Father: Ramesses I, Mother: Queen Sitre
Projecting, arched glabella. Zygomatic arches are rather forward giving prominent cheekbones. Very straight upper incisors; receding chin; moderately steep mandible and broad ramus. Sloping, rather flattened forehead. Occipital region is similar to Pharaohs of XVIII Dynasty.

Conclusions:
..In summation, the New Kingdom Pharaohs and Queens whose mummies have been recovered bear strong similarity to either contemporary Nubians, as with the XVII and XVIII dynasties, or with Mesolithic-Holocene Nubians, as with the XVIV and XX dynasties. The former dynasties seem to have a strong southern affinity, while the latter possessed evidence of mixing with modern Mediterranean types and also, possibly, with remnants of the old Tasian and Natufian populations. From the few sample available from the XXI Dynasty, there may have been a new infusion from the south at this period.

Some recent genetic evidence has disproved the theory of admixture and shows that these features are indigenous.

---

quote:

---

It's a common assumption that they may be of Asiatic descent but Seti's family that founded the 19th and 20th dynasties originated in the Delta, and while Ramesside kings of the 20th dynasty did marry many Asiatic princesses, there is no evidence to suggest that they were Asiatic themselves. In fact, features like large skulls and aquiline noses are not uncommon among native Delta Egyptians, though there's no doubt connections to Neolithic peoples of the Levant.

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Wouldn’t AE that lived near or in the delta be more admixed than Egyptians living further south? That was the impression I got considering it borders the Mediterranean and Levant from the East. I assume that was the whole reasoning for the Ramses mummy having red hair and his aquiline nose or something like that. Answer me this:Would you deem Seti as being more African or Mediterranean? Based on the art it depicts him as having brown skin(as I think most Native Egyptians would have). But quite a few reconstructions tell differently:




Do you think he would have looked similar to these reconstructions?

Posts: 80 | From: USA, America | Registered: May 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

^ Of course Egyptians living in the Delta would have relatively more mixture with Asiatics than other Egyptians, the same way Egyptians living in southern Upper Egypt had relatively more mixture with Nubians than other Egyptians but that doesn't mean we should generalize entire populations to be mixed.

As far as reconstructions go, you can do a search on this forum to find the many threads on the subject. I've said it many times before but I'll say it again. Forensic reconstructions are as much an art as it is a science. There is only so much information a skull can provide. It can't tell you the soft tissue parts that are important features of the face like nose tip, lips, ear shape etc. Maybe a mummy with some soft tissue left can give some info on that but definitely not in regards to skin color. This why a lot of those gaps are filled by the imagination of the artist this is why reconstructions are heavily prone to bias and why many scientists prefer that the artist is double-blinded that is not knowing the identity the skull. This in turn eliminates much of the bias.

The skull of King Tut for example was reconstructed over a dozen times yet in only 2 of those reconstructions do I know for certain the artists were double-blinded.

Unfortunately people have a bad habit of projecting themselves on to their subjects which is why for example this 2006 reconstruction of the mummy Senu by a Japanese team ended up looking like this..



Japanese!

I could easily find examples posted in this thread by Afrocentrics of reconstructions that looked more shall we say Nigerian or Ghanaian looking, yet why do their reconstructions get laughed off and rejected yet the European-looking ones are accepted? By the way, that's not to say the above reconstructions of Seti that you posted are inaccurate at least in terms of features, but I do definitely question the skin color. We have plenty of paintings of Seti, showing that he was much darker. I don't know if you know this but there are Egyptians today as well as other other Africans who have those same exact features as well as his skin color shown in portraits.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:

Hmm, didn’t Seti I come from a military family? I wonder what they were doing during the Hittite occupation like you said. Also, I was always under the impression that Nubians and Egyptians were always in a state of back and forth enemies to friends. As if it were always a cycle. Didn’t native Egyptians accept 25th Dynasty pharaohs since the culture would have been similar as opposed to other foreign occupations? I feel I’ve read that somewhere but I do not know if it was accurate.

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The last king of the previous 18th Dynasty was Horemheb who had no sons to succeed him so he appointed his vizier Paramesse (Ramesses I) who was originally his highest ranked general and war-chief. Paramesse married Sitre who held the title of iryt-p`t meaning royal heiress or hereditary princess which suggests she was a matrilineal descendant of the 18th dynasty and gave legitimacy to Ramses enthronement. Seti I was able to secure the Levant but lost northern Syria to the Hittites.



After several years of conflict, Seti agreed to a peace treaty with the Hittites who annexed the northern part of Syria.



--------------------
Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Of course Egyptians living in the Delta would have relatively more mixture with Asiatics than other Egyptians, the same way Egyptians living in southern Upper Egypt had relatively more mixture with Nubians than other Egyptians but that doesn't mean we should generalize entire populations to be mixed.

As far as reconstructions go, you can do a search on this forum to find the many threads on the subject. I've said it many times before but I'll say it again. Forensic reconstructions are as much an art as it is a science. There is only so much information a skull can provide. It can't tell you the soft tissue parts that are important features of the face like nose tip, lips, ear shape etc. Maybe a mummy with some soft tissue left can give some info on that but definitely not in regards to skin color. This why a lot of those gaps are filled by the imagination of the artist this is why reconstructions are heavily prone to bias and why many scientists prefer that the artist is double-blinded that is not knowing the identity the skull. This in turn eliminates much of the bias.

The skull of King Tut for example was reconstructed over a dozen times yet in only 2 of those reconstructions do I know for certain the artists were double-blinded.

Unfortunately people have a bad habit of projecting themselves on to their subjects which is why for example this 2006 reconstruction of the mummy Senu by a Japanese team ended up looking like this..



Japanese!

I could easily find examples posted in this thread by Afrocentrics of reconstructions that looked more shall we say Nigerian or Ghanaian looking, yet why do their reconstructions get laughed off and rejected yet the European-looking ones are accepted? By the way, that's not to say the above reconstructions of Seti that you posted are inaccurate at least in terms of features, but I do definitely question the skin color. We have plenty of paintings of Seti, showing that he was much darker. I don't know if you know this but there are Egyptians today as well as other other Africans who have those same exact features as well as his skin color shown in portraits.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:

Hmm, didn’t Seti I come from a military family? I wonder what they were doing during the Hittite occupation like you said. Also, I was always under the impression that Nubians and Egyptians were always in a state of back and forth enemies to friends. As if it were always a cycle. Didn’t native Egyptians accept 25th Dynasty pharaohs since the culture would have been similar as opposed to other foreign occupations? I feel I’ve read that somewhere but I do not know if it was accurate.

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The last king of the previous 18th Dynasty was Horemheb who had no sons to succeed him so he appointed his vizier Paramesse (Ramesses I) who was originally his highest ranked general and war-chief. Paramesse married Sitre who held the title of iryt-p`t meaning royal heiress or hereditary princess which suggests she was a matrilineal descendant of the 18th dynasty and gave legitimacy to Ramses enthronement. Seti I was able to secure the Levant but lost northern Syria to the Hittites.



After several years of conflict, Seti agreed to a peace treaty with the Hittites who annexed the northern part of Syria.

---

quote:

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Of course Egyptians living in the Delta would have relatively more mixture with Asiatics than other Egyptians, the same way Egyptians living in southern Upper Egypt had relatively more mixture with Nubians than other Egyptians but that doesn't mean we should generalize entire populations to be mixed

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quote:

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The last king of the previous 18th Dynasty was Horemheb who had no sons to succeed him so he appointed his vizier Paramesse (Ramesses I) who was originally his highest ranked general and war-chief. Paramesse married Sitre who held the title of iryt-p`t meaning royal heiress or hereditary princess which suggests she was a matrilineal descendant of the 18th dynasty and gave legitimacy to Ramses enthronement.

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Posts: 80 | From: USA, America | Registered: May 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:
So would you classify Seti and the Ramessids as “mulattos” since they were very likely to carry this admixture? I’m not too sure of the specifics, but wasn’t Seti I born in Avaris? Which was a well known Asiatic town in AE? I would think there is more likely to be mixture down the line there, if even definite. But like you said, we can’t pinpoint how much admixture there would be. However, I think the most likely conclusion was that he was a little mixed. Mind you, I honestly think he would look more like a modern day Somali. If you can explain to me what Levantine populations looked like that would be great.

When it comes to facial reconstructions I kind of figured it would boil down to personal motives as applied to accuracy. Call me out if I am wrong, but personally I feel many of these facial reconstructions type gigs are used to push narratives. The facial reconstructions end up trying to reimagine AE Pharaohs in the image of modern day Egyptians. Maybe to avoid backlash? I don’t know. I feel it tarnishes the validity and accuracy of the piece.

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What are you talking about ? "mulattos" as in "half eurasian/african" would be more accurate for lower nubians and some upper egyptians certainly not lower egyptians.


Ancient lower egyptians were physically close to modern arabs (bedouins) and NW africans. Overall they were physically closer to europeans than most modern sub-saharans :





Which is confirmed by genetics since the closest samples to the few ancient egyptian samples we have are modern peninsular arabs and bedouins :




Also where are you from ? You seem to talk about egyptians as if you were related to them.

Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:
So would you classify Seti and the Ramessids as “mulattos” since they were very likely to carry this admixture? I’m not too sure of the specifics, but wasn’t Seti I born in Avaris? Which was a well known Asiatic town in AE? I would think there is more likely to be mixture down the line there, if even definite. But like you said, we can’t pinpoint how much admixture there would be. However, I think the most likely conclusion was that he was a little mixed. Mind you, I honestly think he would look more like a modern day Somali. If you can explain to me what Levantine populations looked like that would be great.

When it comes to facial reconstructions I kind of figured it would boil down to personal motives as applied to accuracy. Call me out if I am wrong, but personally I feel many of these facial reconstructions type gigs are used to push narratives. The facial reconstructions end up trying to reimagine AE Pharaohs in the image of modern day Egyptians. Maybe to avoid backlash? I don’t know. I feel it tarnishes the validity and accuracy of the piece.

---

What are you talking about ? "mulattos" as in "half eurasian/african" would be more accurate for lower nubians and some upper egyptians certainly not lower egyptians.


Ancient lower egyptians were physically close to modern arabs (bedouins) and NW africans. Overall they were physically closer to europeans than most modern sub-saharans :





Which is confirmed by genetics since the closest samples to the few ancient egyptian samples we have are modern peninsular arabs and bedouins :




Also where are you from ? You seem to talk about egyptians as if you were related to them.

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Posts: 80 | From: USA, America | Registered: May 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:
I’ll admit I do not know how to read these plots at all. But what I do know is that the Delta region hosted a lot of foreign settlements so it would make sense as to why some of these mummies would show affinities to middle eastern people. However, the Egyptian culture as a whole was always AFRICAN in origin.

I don’t know what importance my origin has. There are lots of people interested in Egyptology that aren’t actually Egyptian themselves. What would knowing my background prove? If it is so important for you to know, I am an American man from Illinois. [/QB]

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The subsistence economy was increasingly based on irrigated agriculture. Despite some genetic roots and ritual survivals of North African origin, the agrosystem was of Mediterranean-Near Eastern origin, rather than African. That applies firstly to the
essential crops, including wheat, barley and legumes planted in the autumn and harvested in late winter or early spring. Second, meat, labor and special products were provided by the standard Near Eastern herd animals. Oxen pulled the basic “scratch” plow, and
although wooly strains of sheep were introduced during the Middle Kingdom, flax was woven into linen as the most common cloth.

---

quote:

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The appearance of bifacially-retouched serrated sickle blades in the Neolithic of Lower Egypt and their persistence in the Predynastic of Lower and Middle Egypt, despite their fast disappearance in the southern Levant, can be regarded as a founder’s effect, which constrained the subsequent morphological change from what had been a narrowly defined pool of variability in their place of origin. Those Neolithic sickle blades in Lower Egypt seem to suggest that Levantine domesticates and technical knowledge of farming were soon passed onto local foragers in Lower Egypt by the migrants of the Lodian culture in the southern Levant during the first half of the 6th millennium cal.BC. More importantly, the long persistence of such peculiar sickle blades in Lower Egypt suggests that after the middle 6th millennium cal.BC, further inflows of migrants, who should have brought new types of sickle blades or new ideas about making sickle blades from the southern Levant, stopped.

The widespread appearance of small projectile points comparable to Levantine Pottery Neolithic ones in the northern half of the Egyptian Western Desert including the Fayum suggests that socioeconomic contacts across the southern Levant, Negev, Sinai and northeastern Africa became frequent and fast in the late 7th - early 6th millennia cal.BC . Through these contacts and probably the establishment of dense kin networks during this period, information about arable land in Egypt would have accumulated sufficiently on the side of Levantine farmer-herders, and an idea about wheat/barley farming and sheep/goat herding would have been acquired on the side of Egyptian foragers. Levantine farmer-herders would have had little reluctance to migrate, once the information about potential destinations was acquired, and routes were defined following kinship connections.

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[...] a recent preliminary study of Mesolithic and Early Neolithic human remains (Crèvecoeur 2012) describes strong and signifcant diferences (anatomical discontinuity) between the two populations from el-Barga (in the Kerma area). The Mesolithic group is more similar in terms of body size and robustness to the groups at Jebel Sahaba, Taforalt and Wadi Halfa (Crèvecoeur 2012, p. 28). Moreover, the genetic or anatomic discontinuity between the late Pleistocene population of Jebel Sahaba and that of the Gebel Ramlah Final Neolithic (following the Wendorf terminology) implies that ‘replacement or genetic swamping of an existing gene pool by an outside group, or groups, occurred after the Pleistocene’ (Irish 2005, p. 520). If this suggestion is correct, we anticipate that this discontinuity occurred near the end of the 7th millennium cal BC and that it is linked to the arrival of small agro-pastoral groups from the Levant (Bar-Yosef 2013, p. 244), apparently in connection with the so-called 8200 BP climate crisis, as suggested on genetic grounds (Smith, A.C. 2013).

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:
I’ll admit I do not know how to read these plots at all. But what I do know is that the Delta region hosted a lot of foreign settlements so it would make sense as to why some of these mummies would show affinities to middle eastern people. However, the Egyptian culture as a whole was always AFRICAN in origin.

I don’t know what importance my origin has. There are lots of people interested in Egyptology that aren’t actually Egyptian themselves. What would knowing my background prove? If it is so important for you to know, I am an American man from Illinois.

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The plots show that the majority of modern sub-Saharan Africans exhibit significant differences from the populations of ancient Egypt and Nubia. It also challenges the notion that Lower Egyptians occupy an intermediate position (mulatto) as you proposed, as they predominantly display Eurasian affinities. Additionally, the presence of foreign settlements, which you have mentioned, can be traced back not only to the dynastic period but also to the early Holocene, if not even earlier. People did not wait until the Bronze Age to migrate into the Nile Valley, and it appears that you are intentionally disregarding the presence of foreign settlers from the South. There were numerous Nubian settlements in Egypt, extending as far north as the Fayoum region.

The term "African" is quite broad and doesn't carry specific connotations. Just like I can categorize Hindu culture as "Asiatic," yet it doesn't imply any cultural affinity with Japanese, Yemenites, and Syrians despite all falling under the "Asiatic" label. Likewise, the independent emergence of a culture in Africa doesn't provide substantial insights into genetics, anthropology, or kinship.

Now that I know your background, I'm not particularly surprised, as it is common for some African-Americans to identify primarily based on skin color. Consequently, they may feel a sense of pride or associate themselves with the culture and history of people who share a similar level of darkness in skin tone, even if there is no significant genetic or cultural connection between them.


Here a few sources for you so you can see that I'm not making bold statements :

quote:

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The subsistence economy was increasingly based on irrigated agriculture. Despite some genetic roots and ritual survivals of North African origin, the agrosystem was of Mediterranean-Near Eastern origin, rather than African. That applies firstly to the
essential crops, including wheat, barley and legumes planted in the autumn and harvested in late winter or early spring. Second, meat, labor and special products were provided by the standard Near Eastern herd animals. Oxen pulled the basic “scratch” plow, and
although wooly strains of sheep were introduced during the Middle Kingdom, flax was woven into linen as the most common cloth.

---

Karl W. Butzer, Subsistence and diet in Dynastic Egypt, in: Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, Routledge, 2005, pp. 918

quote:

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The appearance of bifacially-retouched serrated sickle blades in the Neolithic of Lower Egypt and their persistence in the Predynastic of Lower and Middle Egypt, despite their fast disappearance in the southern Levant, can be regarded as a founder’s effect, which constrained the subsequent morphological change from what had been a narrowly defined pool of variability in their place of origin. Those Neolithic sickle blades in Lower Egypt seem to suggest that Levantine domesticates and technical knowledge of farming were soon passed onto local foragers in Lower Egypt by the migrants of the Lodian culture in the southern Levant during the first half of the 6th millennium cal.BC. More importantly, the long persistence of such peculiar sickle blades in Lower Egypt suggests that after the middle 6th millennium cal.BC, further inflows of migrants, who should have brought new types of sickle blades or new ideas about making sickle blades from the southern Levant, stopped.

The widespread appearance of small projectile points comparable to Levantine Pottery Neolithic ones in the northern half of the Egyptian Western Desert including the Fayum suggests that socioeconomic contacts across the southern Levant, Negev, Sinai and northeastern Africa became frequent and fast in the late 7th - early 6th millennia cal.BC . Through these contacts and probably the establishment of dense kin networks during this period, information about arable land in Egypt would have accumulated sufficiently on the side of Levantine farmer-herders, and an idea about wheat/barley farming and sheep/goat herding would have been acquired on the side of Egyptian foragers. Levantine farmer-herders would have had little reluctance to migrate, once the information about potential destinations was acquired, and routes were defined following kinship connections.

---

http://%2A%20https//openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/15339/Shirai%20Chapter%208.pdf?sequence=5

quote:

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[...] a recent preliminary study of Mesolithic and Early Neolithic human remains (Crèvecoeur 2012) describes strong and signifcant diferences (anatomical discontinuity) between the two populations from el-Barga (in the Kerma area). The Mesolithic group is more similar in terms of body size and robustness to the groups at Jebel Sahaba, Taforalt and Wadi Halfa (Crèvecoeur 2012, p. 28). Moreover, the genetic or anatomic discontinuity between the late Pleistocene population of Jebel Sahaba and that of the Gebel Ramlah Final Neolithic (following the Wendorf terminology) implies that ‘replacement or genetic swamping of an existing gene pool by an outside group, or groups, occurred after the Pleistocene’ (Irish 2005, p. 520). If this suggestion is correct, we anticipate that this discontinuity occurred near the end of the 7th millennium cal BC and that it is linked to the arrival of small agro-pastoral groups from the Levant (Bar-Yosef 2013, p. 244), apparently in connection with the so-called 8200 BP climate crisis, as suggested on genetic grounds (Smith, A.C. 2013).

---

Salvatori et al., The neolithic and "pastoralism" along the Nile : a dissenting view, 2019


So as you can see the arrival of levantine settlers in Egypt and Sudan is much older than what you proposed. [/QB]

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quote:

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Now that I know your background, I'm not particularly surprised, as it is common for some African-Americans to identify primarily based on skin color. Consequently, they may feel a sense of pride or associate themselves with the culture and history of people who share a similar level of darkness in skin tone, even if there is no significant genetic or cultural connection between them

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Posts: 80 | From: USA, America | Registered: May 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:
What is this implication? It isn’t solely African Americans that partake in this but also white Americans as well. Again, let’s not forget which group of people created the idea of race science and phenology in the first place, and the introduction to outdated racial classifications. It was not African Americans, I will tell you that much.

Anyways, for the sake of my thread if you do not plan on contributing any information about Seti I then may I ask if you leave. I have a suspicion that you came in here specifically to argue with me about genetic makeup of AEs. That’s why you’re posting all of these charts and graphs to get into it with me.

So with that being said, if you have nothing to contribute then there is nothing else for me to say to you further. [/QB]

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:
What is this implication? It isn’t solely African Americans that partake in this but also white Americans as well. Again, let’s not forget which group of people created the idea of race science and phenology in the first place, and the introduction to outdated racial classifications. It was not African Americans, I will tell you that much.

Anyways, for the sake of my thread if you do not plan on contributing any information about Seti I then may I ask if you leave. I have a suspicion that you came in here specifically to argue with me about genetic makeup of AEs. That’s why you’re posting all of these charts and graphs to get into it with me.

So with that being said, if you have nothing to contribute then there is nothing else for me to say to you further.

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Well wasn't it you who brought the look of Seti I and the Lower Egyptians? I was simply answering to your false statements in regards to this subject.

Furthermore, I would like to emphasize that just because African Americans did not partake in the pseudo-scientific racial beliefs of Westerners in the late 19th century, does not mean that we should now, in the 21st century, tolerate opposing racist ideologies. [/QB]

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Posts: 80 | From: USA, America | Registered: May 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

What does "black" even mean here? Are afro-americans native to North Africa? Is any dark-skinned person native to North Africa? Are you treating "Blacks" as a monolith?

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Your first question was already countless times "black" means very dark or heavy melanated skin. The earliest use of the term 'black' was by Greeks to describe North Africans i.e. Egyptians who were called "melanchroi" meaning black colored. Hence the below examples:

Herodotus: "..Still the Egyptians said that they believed the Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair, which certainly amounts to but little, since several other nations are so too. But further and more especially, on the circumstance that the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians, are the only nations who have practiced circumcision from the earliest times..."
(The Histories, Book 2:104)

Aristotle: "Too black a hue marks the coward as witness Egyptians and Ethiopians and so does also too white a complexion as you may see from women, the complexion of courage is between the two..." ""Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair."
(Physiognomics)

Lucian: (Lycinus describing a young Egyptian) "This boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin... his hair worn in a plait behind shows that he is not a freeman."
(Timolaus responds) "But that is a sign of really distinguished birth in Egypt, Lycinus, All freeborn children plait their hair until they reach manhood. It is the exact opposite of the custom of our ancestors who thought it seemly for old men to secure their hair with a gold brooch to keep it in place."
(Navigations)

Aeschylus: (The Danaids upon seeing their Egyptian cousins sailing towards them) "I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics."
(The Suppliants)

Ammianus Marcellinus: "..the men of Egypt are mostly dusky and black with a skinny and desiccated look.."

Achilles Tatius of Alexandria: "...the herdsmen of the [Egyptian] Delta are blackish of skin like Ethiopians.."

And what of these post-Classical Judeo-Christian sources below?

Rabbi Yuda ben Simon in a Midrashic text: Abraham says to his wife Sarah, "Now we are about to enter a place (Egypt) of ugly and black people"

In a Midrash: "The black people will come out of Egypt, Kush will stretch its hands to God"

Church Father Theodore of Mopsuestia says above the Shulamite bride in the 'Song of Songs': "She was black like all the Egyptians and Ethiopians."

Church Father Origen Adamantius says of the Egyptians: "They are the discolored (black) posterity of Ham"

As to your second question, it's idiotic. Of course Afro-Americans are not native to North Africa, they're not even native to West Africa which is where their ancestors came from? Are Euro-Americans native to North Africa? No but that hasn't stopped white Hollywood actors from portraying them.

Your third question is not as obtuse as the previous one but still obtuse. Yes blacks are native to North Africa but that doesn't mean any black person is. You love to post pictures of your white Amazigh people of the coast, should I assume then that every white person who happens to be in the region is Amazigh instead of a European visitor? By the way, that still doesn't change the fact that whites are not aboriginal to the area but descend from European influxes.

Your last question is hilarious. Am I treating blacks as a monolith?! You are obviously projecting since YOUR warped definition of "black" only means Sub-Saharans types from West and Central Africa. The definition of 'black' is based on skin color and 'Africa' is limited to the continent of Africa.

Thus Baladi (indigenous Egyptians) below are black Africans.

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It's interesting how this individual, who appears to be mentally unwell, mentioned European admixture despite arguing a few weeks ago that the closeness between Eurasians and North Africans is primarily due to African admixture.

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Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Your first question was already countless times "black" means very dark or heavy melanated skin.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: The earliest use of the term 'black' was by Greeks to describe North Africans i.e. Egyptians who were called "melanchroi" meaning black colored. Hence the below examples:

Herodotus: "..Still the Egyptians said that they believed the Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair, which certainly amounts to but little, since several other nations are so too. But further and more especially, on the circumstance that the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians, are the only nations who have practiced circumcision from the earliest times..."
(The Histories, Book 2:104)

Aristotle: "Too black a hue marks the coward as witness Egyptians and Ethiopians and so does also too white a complexion as you may see from women, the complexion of courage is between the two..." ""Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair."
(Physiognomics)

Lucian: (Lycinus describing a young Egyptian) "This boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin... his hair worn in a plait behind shows that he is not a freeman."
(Timolaus responds) "But that is a sign of really distinguished birth in Egypt, Lycinus, All freeborn children plait their hair until they reach manhood. It is the exact opposite of the custom of our ancestors who thought it seemly for old men to secure their hair with a gold brooch to keep it in place."
(Navigations)

Aeschylus: (The Danaids upon seeing their Egyptian cousins sailing towards them) "I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics."
(The Suppliants)

Ammianus Marcellinus: "..the men of Egypt are mostly dusky and black with a skinny and desiccated look.."

Achilles Tatius of Alexandria: "...the herdsmen of the [Egyptian] Delta are blackish of skin like Ethiopians.."

And what of these post-Classical Judeo-Christian sources below?

Rabbi Yuda ben Simon in a Midrashic text: Abraham says to his wife Sarah, "Now we are about to enter a place (Egypt) of ugly and black people"

In a Midrash: "The black people will come out of Egypt, Kush will stretch its hands to God"

Church Father Theodore of Mopsuestia says above the Shulamite bride in the 'Song of Songs': "She was black like all the Egyptians and Ethiopians."

Church Father Origen Adamantius says of the Egyptians: "They are the discolored (black) posterity of Ham"

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Indeed, most of these passages do not even mention lips or hair but demonstrate only that adjectives denoting color in classical texts, though used to describe several peoples darker than Greeks and Romans, by no means indicate that persons so described were Ethiopians, that is, blacks or Negroes in the modern usage of such terms.

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I have this much further to say of this country: four nations and no more, as far as we know, inhabit it, two of which are aboriginal and two not; the Libyans in the north and the Ethiopians in the south of Libya are aboriginal ; the Phoenicians and Greeks are later settlers.

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The evidence clearly shows that those Greco-Roman authors who refer to skin color and other physical traits distinguish sharply between Ethiopians (Nubians) and Egyptians , and rarely do they refer to the Egyptians, even though they were described as darker than themselves. No Greek doubted that the Egyptians were darker than the Greeks, but not as dark as black Africans

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Now the inhabitants of the marches are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.

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For in the correspondingly situated places on our side of the equator, that is those on the Summer Tropic [i.e. at Egypt's latitude], people do not yet have the color of the Aithiopians , and there are no rhinoceros and elephants; but in places not much to the south of these, moderately black people are to be found, such as those who live in the "Thirty Schoinoi" [region in lower Nubia] outside of Soene. Of the same type, too, are the people of Garame, whom Marinos also says (and indeed, for this very reason) live neither right on the Summer Tropic nor to the north, but entirely to the south of it. But in places around Meroe people are already quite black in color, and are at last pure Aithiopians, and the habitat of the elephants and more wonderful animals is there.

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Several classical authors specifically emphasized that Ethiopians were darker than Egyptians. Inhabitants of the area near the Ethiopian-nubian boundary were said by Flavius Philostratus (Life of Apollonius 6.2) to be not fully black, not as black as ethiopians, but blacker than egyptians. That the pigmentation of Egyptians was seen as lighter than that of Ethiopians is also attested by the adjective subfusculi ("somewhat dark") which Ammianus Marcellinus (22.16.23) chose to describe Egyptians. The people inhabiting the regions around Meroe, on the other hand were deeply black in color and were pure Ethiopians (Ptolemy Geography 1.9)

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The pseudo-aristotelian Physiognomonica (812a, b) describes both egyptians and Ethiopians as melanes, but mentions only Ethiopians, not Egyptians, as having exceedingly woolly hair. In short, Ethiopians whose skin was the blackest and whose hair was the woolliest or most tightly curled of all mankind were the only people in classical texts who correspond roughly to the concept of blacks or negroes as generally understood in modern usage.

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Despite the efforts of Armayor and English, there is no linguistic justification for relating this term to negores. Melanchroes could denote any colour from bronzed to black, and negroes are certainly not the only physical type to show curly hair. These characteristics found in many Egs., ancient and modern, but they are at variance with what we should expect to find amongst the inhabitants of the Caucasus area. To Hippocrates the Phasians of Colchis were sallow (ochros) whilst the complexions of the modern-day Georgian population have been described as fair, sallow or ruddy. On the other hand, Arab geographer Istakhri describes an element of the Khazar people dwelling east of the Caucasus from at least the 6th century AD ” as if they were a kind of Indians.

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After this man the priest enumerate to me from a papyrus the names of other Kings, three hundred and thirty in number; and in all these generations of men eighteen were Ethiopians, one was a woman and the rest were men and of Egyptian race.

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The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.

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The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.

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As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians.

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Black people resided not in the Nile valley but in a far land, by the fountain of the sun .

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Depictions of Libyan men on Egyptian walls show them wearing long cloaks of colorful animal skins, tied at the neck and open on one side (Bates 1914, plate III). They are light skinned , with sparse beards, and long hair including a braided side knot hanging down in front of their ear, decorated on top with ostrich feathers. A notable feature is the use of tattoos to enliven both arms and legs.

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"Ethiopian", the word of crucial import as to the full significance of the ethnic identification of peoples darker than greeks and romans, was applied, with a few poetical exceptions, neither to egyptians nor to inhabitants of northwestern Africa, such as Carthaginians, Numidians, or Moors. In other words, all Ethiopians were black or dark, but with hair, noses, and lips differing from these features in other peoples described as black or dark. And Afri (africans) generally referred to the lighter-skinned populations of countries west of Egypt along the northern coast of Africa - peoples whose physical characteristics Greeks and Romans distinguished from those of the dark-skinned inhabitants of the interior of northwestern Africa.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Your third question is not as obtuse as the previous one but still obtuse. Yes blacks are native to North Africa but that doesn't mean any black person is. You love to post pictures of your white Amazigh people of the coast, should I assume then that every white person who happens to be in the region is Amazigh instead of a European visitor? By the way, that still doesn't change the fact that whites are not aboriginal to the area but descend from European influxes.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Your last question is hilarious. Am I treating blacks as a monolith?! You are obviously projecting since YOUR warped definition of "black" only means Sub-Saharans types from West and Central Africa. The definition of 'black' is based on skin color and 'Africa' is limited to the continent of Africa.

Thus Baladi (indigenous Egyptians) below are black Africans.

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Baladi are not "black african" they're indigenous egyptians who happen to be genetically closer and related to population in the middle east than most "black africans". West, Central, South and good chunk of east africans genetically plot far from upper egyptians let alone physically.


Again Ancient egyptians whether from Upper or lower Egypt were closer to Bedouins, Berbers, Europeans than most (not all) Sub-saharan Africans :

Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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The precise origins of Ramses I are difficult to discern. Most of the information about his family comes from the 400-Year Stela, an inscription at the Temple of Seth in Avaris during the reign of Ramses II. This inscription provides several titles held by Seti I during the reign of Horemheb and also lists Ramses I as Horemheb’s ‘Deputy in Upper and Lower Egypt.’ But researchers cannot rely entirely on the 400-Year Stela for its inherently political purpose: It was carved during the reign of Ramses II to legitimize his reign, so its inscription likely has a political agenda. Furthermore, the stela itself is damaged and the entire text has not been preserved.

Other textual sources about the early history of the Ramesside dynasty are equally vague and troublesome. A fragment of a votive stela currently held in the collection of the Oriental Institute Museum in Chicago (OI 11456) is dedicated to a troop-commander by the name of Seti. Appearing alongside Seti are his son, Paramessu, and his brother Khaemwaset. While it is not certain, this Paramessu may in fact be Ramses I in the early stages of his career. That would make his father, the troop-commander Seti, the great-grandfather of Ramses II and the earliest named member of the Ramesside dynasty in the historical record. A statue of this leader, alongside his son Paramessu, was also found at Karnak Temple, where in addition to ‘troop-commander’ he is given the title ‘judge.’

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His Majesty has commanded to raise a great stela in granite for the great name of his fathers, in order to raise the name of the father of his fathers ( and for ) his father the King Men-Ma'at-Re, son of Re, Seti Mer-ne-Ptah lasting for eternity, like Re every day.

Year 400, the fourth month of the season of Shammu, the fourth day of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Seth-Great-of-valor, son of Re whom he loves, Nubti [11], beloved by Re-Hor-akhty, may he live for ever.

The Regent came, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the fanbearer on the right hand of the King [7], the leader of the bowmen, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw [8], the great of Medjay [9], the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry the lord master of the ceremonies of the Feast of the He-goat [10], the master of Smendes, the first prophet of Seth, the lector-priest of Wadjet-Opet-Tawy, the head of all priests of all the gods, Seti, right of voice, son of the Prince regent, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw, the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry, Paramesse [12], right of voice, born from the mistress of the house, the songstress of Re, Tiw, right of voice, he says :

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Originally called Pa-ra-mes-su, Ramesses I was of non-royal birth, being born into a noble military family from the Nile Delta region, perhaps near the former Hyksos capital of Avaris. He was a son of a troop commander called Seti. His uncle Khaemwaset, an army officer, married Tamwadjesy, the matron of Tutankhamun's[4] Harem of Amun, who was a relative of Huy, the viceroy of Kush, an important state post.[5] This shows the high status of Ramesses' family. Ramesses I found favor with Horemheb, the last pharaoh of the tumultuous Eighteenth Dynasty, who appointed the former as his vizier. Ramesses also served as the High Priest of Set[6] – as such, he would have played an important role in the restoration of the old religion following the Amarna heresy of a generation earlier, under Akhenaten.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
After Ta-Shemau conquered Ta-Mehu (Lower Egypt) they defeated Ta-Seti and assimilated many of their populace into southern Upper Egypt which is the 1st nome in Upper Egypt was called Ta-Seti. During the Middle Kingdom there were Setiu remnants in Lower Nubia that wanted revenge and even had assassination attempts on the 12th dynasty kings which is why the king forbade Nubians from entering Egypt except to do trade.

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Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Kimbles:
What racist ideologies are you talking about? The fact that the AE would have been dark-skinned, or "blackish" today? I don't see how you can come to the conclusion of racism. i am quite ignorant of North African history on that side of Africa, but from what I know wasn't there many different settlements from the Roman period as well as from Iberia? A lot of North Africans look especially White along the coast, and there's a reason for that. Also, arent you the one that attributed "Sub-Saharan" ancestry in the North African region to slaves? Why do you think the only times "Black" Africans were ever present in the North Sahara were as slaves? The fact is, "Black" people as you define it have been everywhere in Africa, they arent just restricted to areas below the Sahara.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:
What racist ideologies are you talking about? The fact that the AE would have been dark-skinned, or "blackish" today? I don't see how you can come to the conclusion of racism. i am quite ignorant of North African history on that side of Africa, but from what I know wasn't there many different settlements from the Roman period as well as from Iberia? A lot of North Africans look especially White along the coast, and there's a reason for that. Also, arent you the one that attributed "Sub-Saharan" ancestry in the North African region to slaves? Why do you think the only times "Black" Africans were ever present in the North Sahara were as slaves? The fact is, "Black" people as you define it have been everywhere in Africa, they arent just restricted to areas below the Sahara.

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Racist ideologies promoting the notion of North Africans as "invaders," advocating for the appropriation of their culture and history, and inciting violence against them to "repel the Arab invader" lack any empirical evidence to support their claims. It is particularly disconcerting when such ideas are propagated by Afro-Americans who have no connection to North-east Africa.

While I understand that you may not be well-versed in this subject, it is important to note that Morocco is only 15km away from Europe, and Egypt is geographically linked to the Middle East. Migration of Eurasians into Africa has been occurring since the Pleistocene epoch, and it is not a recent phenomenon. Numerous genetic and anthropological studies exist that shed light on the population history of the region, and I encourage you to delve into these scholarly works instead of making unsubstantiated statements.

Furthermore, it is essential to refrain from making assumptions about me, as I never claimed that all black individuals in North Africa are descendants of slaves. While it is true that many are, I am one of the few North Africans on the internet who acknowledges the existence of black skinned populations in ancient times, particularly in the Sahara.


I already made threads on the the trans-saharan slave trade impact and arab admixture all backed up by many papers : here and here

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Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:

Yea lets get back on topic. Further off topic garbage will lead to vacation.

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What's funny is that I addressed issues of Seti I, not just how he looked or his "racial makeup" but also his family heritage and his accomplishments, yet the troll Antalas tries to turn this thread into another race debate! Why, when he already has dozens of other threads on that topic?? Is it because he gets trashed in every one of them?! LOL

So here it is again.

Seti I's family tree


Commander Seti was the founding father of the dynasty and wiki states:

Seti or Suti was an ancient Egyptian soldier during the late 18th Dynasty (14th century BCE), the commander of the army, later mentioned as vizier on monuments of his son, Pharaoh Ramesses I.[1]

Seti, the forefather of the 19th Dynasty, was from a military family in the Nile Delta. According to one theory he is identical with a royal envoy mentioned in the Amarna letters as Shuta.[1]

According to another theory, he had a brother called Khaemwaset who is identical with the Royal Fanbearer and Chief of the Bowmen of Kush Khaemwaset. The latter is mentioned on a statue dating to Tutankhamun's reign. Khaemwaset's wife Taemwadjsy was mistress of the Harem of Amun and is probably the same Taemwadjsy who was sister to Huy, Viceroy of Kush.[2] This theory is based on a stela now in the Oriental Institute in Chicago. However, other pointed out that the stela dates most likely under Amenhotep III and is therefore too early for this identification. The reading of the name Ramose (the future king Ramesses I as son Seti), on this stela is very doubtful too and a reading Amenmose seems more likely.[3]

The fragment of the votive stela is now in the Oriental Institute in Chicago (OI 11456). This fragment is 115 cm wide and 65–70 cm high, its upper part depicts a sitting male and female figure, but only the feet remained intact. Its lower part shows three persons in clothing influenced by Amarna-style, flanked by Khaemwaset and Amenmose (read as Ramise by Eugene Cruz-Uribe). The stela's inscription is: “an offering to the ka of Osiris-Suti, Commander of the Troops of the Lord of the Two Lands”.

Commander Seti's son Ramessu I


Again from Wiki:

Originally called Pa-ra-mes-su, Ramesses I was of non-royal birth, being born into a noble military family from the Nile Delta region, perhaps near the former Hyksos capital of Avaris. He was a son of a troop commander called Seti. His uncle Khaemwaset, an army officer, married Tamwadjesy, the matron of Tutankhamun's[4] Harem of Amun, who was a relative of Huy, the viceroy of Kush, an important state post.[5] This shows the high status of Ramesses' family. Ramesses I found favor with Horemheb, the last pharaoh of the tumultuous Eighteenth Dynasty, who appointed the former as his vizier. Ramesses also served as the High Priest of Set[6] – as such, he would have played an important role in the restoration of the old religion following the Amarna heresy of a generation earlier, under Akhenaten.

Horemheb himself had been a nobleman from outside the immediate royal family, who rose through the ranks of the Egyptian army to serve as the royal advisor to Tutankhamun and Ay and, ultimately, pharaoh. Since Horemheb had no surviving children, he ultimately chose Ramesses to be his heir in the final years of his reign presumably because Ramesses I was both an able administrator and had a son (Seti I) and a grandson (the future Ramesses II) to succeed him and thus avoid any succession difficulties.

Upon his accession, Ramesses assumed a prenomen, or royal name. When transliterated, the name is mn-pḥty-rʿ, which is usually interpreted as Menpehtyre, meaning "Established by the strength of Ra". However, he is better known by his nomen, or personal name. This is transliterated as rʿ-ms-sw, and is usually realised as Ramessu or Ramesses, meaning 'Ra bore him'. Already an old man when he was crowned, Ramesses appointed his son, the later pharaoh Seti I, to serve as the Crown Prince and chosen successor. Seti was charged with undertaking several military operations during this time–in particular, an attempt to recoup some of Egypt's lost possessions in Syria. Ramesses appears to have taken charge of domestic matters: most memorably, he completed the second pylon at Karnak Temple, begun under Horemheb.

Again, the theory that the family was Asiatic is based solely that they may be native to the area where the Hysksos ruled. The irony is that now there are indications that the Rammesides may have possessed E1b1a which is shared by mostly Sub-Saharan West Africans!!

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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ No problem.

Here is some info on Seti I's mother Sitre:

There is some debate around the identity of Ramesses' wife and Seti's mother. Sitre is shown together with Ramesses I and Seti in Seti's Abydos temple where she is called the King's Mother.[2] She is called the King's Great Wife both in Seti's temple and in Seti's tomb (where one would expect her to be mentioned as King's Mother). However, Sitre's tomb, which can stylistically be dated to this period, mentions its owner as a King's Mother.[3]

The Year 400 Stela, found in Tanis and dated to the reign of Sitre's grandson Ramesses II describes Seti as the son of Paramessu (the name of Ramesses I before he became pharaoh) and Tia. Also, Seti's daughter was named Tia. It can be assumed that Tia and Sitre are the same person and that she altered her name when her husband became pharaoh, just like he changed his name from Paramessu to Ramesses. The fact that one of the daughters of Ramesses II was named Tia-Sitre makes it even more likely.[3]

The absence of the title King's Daughter for her indicates that Sitre was of non-royal descent.[4] She did hold a large number of titles. She was a Hereditary Princess (iryt-p`t), a Great King’s Mother (mwt-niswt-wrt), also described as a God’s Mother (mwt-ntr). Her queenly titles included Lady of The Two Lands (nbt-t3wy), King’s Wife (hmt-nisw), Great King’s Wife, his beloved (hmt-niswt-wrt meryt.f) and Mistress of Upper and Lower Egypt (hnwt-Shm’w-mhw). She also held the title of God’s Wife (hmt-ntr)

There seems to be a presumption that royal descent only counts from the king. Yet the title of iryt-p`t is held by numerous royal women who were not daughters of kings but of queens or other princesses. This makes me wonder if Sitre was related in someway to the previous (18th) dynasty.

Likewise the wife of Seti I's own wife Tuya also held the title of iryt-p`t even though her father Raia was also a military officer.

See Matrilineality in KMT.

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The absence of the title King's Daughter for her indicates that Sitre was of non-royal descent.

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The name 'Seti' means "of Set", which indicates that he was consecrated to the god Set (also termed "Sutekh" or "Seth").

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As per Wikipedia, Seti's name derives from the Egyptian God Set. Wasn't Set known for...ahem, doing some weird things with Horus concerning Lettuce...
You would think that it would hold a negative connotation now that we know what type of God Set represented in Egyptian mythos. or did people not really care about that? How was this fact taken among the Egyptian locals?

Btw, the AEs must have been some "MURICA" patriotic type people. They really, and I mean REALLY loved themselves and their culture . Wouldn't you say almost like the Romans later down the line.

Posts: 80 | From: USA, America | Registered: May 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

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This shoudl be the end of discussion, no need to speculate and play little guessing games with bogus reconstructions when the A. Egyptian artists with functioning brains left clear, countless examples of how they, with their own two eyes, depicted Seti.



No need for biodiversity google scholars to envoke Arabs and Europ[eans when there's still Egyptians alive today with the exact same features as Seti..

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Originally posted by Djehuti:






Personally I don't see why Seti I wouldn't be well liked. After the ritual calamity that Akhenaten caused at the end of the 18th dynasty with his Aten cult as well as neglect in foreign policy, it was Seti who reconciled with the Amun priesthood, as well as secure Egyptians control in both the Levant and Nubia, though he ceded some of the former territory with the Hittites.

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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The Rameside dynasty was cleary very patrotic and proud of their Upper Egyptian origins.




Go deeper, and look at their regalia. Oh the irony, that the racist favorite pharoah is from this dynasty and lineage.



Set, originally Upper Egypt's chief god, God of the WESTERN DESERT

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Set was worshipped at the temples of Ombos (Nub near Naqada) and Ombos (Nubt near Kom Ombo), at Oxyrhynchus in Upper Egypt

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Upper Egyptians/Nubians/Kushites with a colony/outpost in the Delta/Avaris. How? Why?





this is the dynasty that most fascinates Hollywood because of the biblical connections.




But the West African / western desert parallels are interesting. The things that make you go mmmm...






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It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions

Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Kimbles:

Military, military, military. it seems like we had a family of natural born fighters it seems in the 19th dynasty lol. I mean, take for example all the territory and battles won during the reign, I think the merit speaks for itself. I guess you could say, "they were the shit".

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So since the mother of Seti I was thought to be of non-royalty does that mean that the Egyptian practice of incest wasn't a significant part of the 19th Dynasty? We see plenty of past Pharaohs partake in that practice, and from what I've seen its seems as though these particular Pharaohs did not.

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I also noticed they don't have some of the odd skull shapes some other mummified Pharaohs had either which is interesting.

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As per Wikipedia, Seti's name derives from the Egyptian God Set. Wasn't Set known for...ahem, doing some weird things with Horus concerning Lettuce...

You would think that it would hold a negative connotation now that we know what type of God Set represented in Egyptian mythos. or did people not really care about that? How was this fact taken among the Egyptian locals?

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Btw, the AEs must have been some "MURICA" patriotic type people. They really, and I mean REALLY loved themselves and their culture . Wouldn't you say almost like the Romans later down the line.

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Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] ^ The Ramesides at least their paternal origins are local to the Delta not Upper Egypt. While the cult of may originally be southern in origin, his cult was adopted by many in the Delta including foreigners from Asia since Set was a god of the desert and thus many people of desert nomad ancestry adopted him their patron deity.

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The Ramesside could be locals from the Delta and still be ethnically upper egyptian/nubian etc.

I am American and I still woke up this morning Blackity black

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In addition, one of the garrisons of Ramesses II held Set as its patron deity, and Ramesses II erected the so-called "Year 400 Stela" at Pi-Ramesses, commemorating the 400th anniversary of the Set cult in the Nile delta.[36]

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

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His Majesty has commanded to raise a great stela in granite for the great name of his fathers, in order to raise the name of the father of his fathers ( and for ) his father the King Men-Ma'at-Re, son of Re, Seti Mer-ne-Ptah lasting for eternity, like Re every day.

[quote]Year 400, the fourth month of the season of Shammu, the fourth day of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Seth-Great-of-valor, son of Re whom he loves, Nubti [11], beloved by Re-Hor-akhty, may he live for ever.

The Regent came, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the fanbearer on the right hand of the King [7], the leader of the bowmen, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw [8], the great of Medjay [9], the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry the lord master of the ceremonies of the Feast of the He-goat [10], the master of Smendes, the first prophet of Seth, the lector-priest of Wadjet-Opet-Tawy, the head of all priests of all the gods, Seti, right of voice, son of the Prince regent, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw, the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry, Paramesse [12], right of voice, born from the mistress of the house, the songstress of Re, Tiw, right of voice, he says :

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ The Ramesides at least their paternal origins are local to the Delta not Upper Egypt. While the cult of may originally be southern in origin, his cult was adopted by many in the Delta including foreigners from Asia since Set was a god of the desert and thus many people of desert nomad ancestry adopted him their patron deity.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:

Military, military, military. it seems like we had a family of natural born fighters it seems in the 19th dynasty lol. I mean, take for example all the territory and battles won during the reign, I think the merit speaks for itself. I guess you could say, "they were the shit".

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Well technically all royal families and those of nobility were military also since military defense is a huge part in ruling. But in the case of the Ramesides, they were non-royal in origin but rose up in the ranks of the military. However, as I pointed out this we know more about their paternal heritage but no so much about their maternal heritage which could very well be royal in origin since the women they married held the title of hereditary princess.

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So since the mother of Seti I was thought to be of non-royalty does that mean that the Egyptian practice of incest wasn't a significant part of the 19th Dynasty? We see plenty of past Pharaohs partake in that practice, and from what I've seen its seems as though these particular Pharaohs did not.

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Again, the assumption that she was non-royal comes solely from the fact that she wasn't the daughter of a king but as I've pointed out they don't take into account that royal lineage was also matrilineal hence why she had the title of hereditary princess in the first place. I believe that royal incest was originally practiced as a way of reconciling both paternal and maternal lineages together. While royal incest was not uncommon in Egyptian dynasties it wasn't the rule, however what seemed to be a very common practice is that when a male ascends the throne he would marry a princess who was iryt-p`t meaning she was a descendant of the current or preceding dynasty even if she descend from the king but rather from the queen or her maternal lineage. This is why royal women would often bestow their own names to daughters or granddaughters etc.

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I also noticed they don't have some of the odd skull shapes some other mummified Pharaohs had either which is interesting.

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What do you mean by "odd"? If your mean elongated, such skull shapes were not unusual in Nile Valley Africa. See here.

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As per Wikipedia, Seti's name derives from the Egyptian God Set. Wasn't Set known for...ahem, doing some weird things with Horus concerning Lettuce...

You would think that it would hold a negative connotation now that we know what type of God Set represented in Egyptian mythos. or did people not really care about that? How was this fact taken among the Egyptian locals?

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Yes Set was a god of the foreign, strange, and even 'left-hand path' so to speak but that was the image the Delta Egyptians in their Osirian myths.

Many people forget that Egyptian mythology varied by region and locale. Set was originally a god of Upper Egypt with his oldest cult centers being ther, but even in Heliopolitan myths in the north he served Ra as his guard and protector during his night journey. So he was not actually totally evil. The negative views of Set were more popular in the Delta but since Set was a god of foreigners he was adopted as the patron deity of Asiatics including the Hyksos. But because Set was also a warrior god and a god of the deserts he was taken up by many soldiers and nomads. The Ramesides fit with the former.

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Btw, the AEs must have been some "MURICA" patriotic type people. They really, and I mean REALLY loved themselves and their culture . Wouldn't you say almost like the Romans later down the line.

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And what's wrong with being patriotic?? Usually citizens of every nation are proud of their respective nations. Nationhood and nationality are part of a peoples' identity. You seem to confuse patriotism which is pride in ones' nation for chauvinism which is ethnic or national superiority or even imperialism which is expansionist dominion. Certainly there was chauvinism in the Egyptians' part but their imperialism was different from that of the Romans, because Egyptian imperialism was a reaction to almost being wiped out by foreigners during the 17th dynasty as I've shown above. Is there a problem with loving or being proud of your own nation? Funny how it's not a problem when other countries do it, but when American's do it somehow becomes bad or "fascist". Why is that?

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Well technically all royal families and those of nobility were military also since military defense is a huge part in ruling. But in the case of the Ramesides, they were non-royal in origin but rose up in the ranks of the military.

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quote:

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Again, the assumption that she was non-royal comes solely from the fact that she wasn't the daughter of a king but as I've pointed out they don't take into account that royal lineage was also matrilineal hence why she had the title of hereditary princess in the first place. I believe that royal incest was originally practiced as a way of reconciling both paternal and maternal lineages together. While royal incest was not uncommon in Egyptian dynasties it wasn't the rule, however what seemed to be a very common practice is that when a male ascends the throne he would marry a princess who was iryt-p`t meaning she was a descendant of the current or preceding dynasty even if she descend from the king but rather from the queen or her maternal lineage. This is why royal women would often bestow their own names to daughters or granddaughters etc.

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quote:

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And what's wrong with being patriotic?? Usually citizens of every nation are proud of their respective nations. Nationhood and nationality are part of a peoples' identity. You seem to confuse patriotism which is pride in ones' nation for chauvinism which is ethnic or national superiority or even imperialism which is expansionist dominion. Certainly there was chauvinism in the Egyptians' part but their imperialism was different from that of the Romans, because Egyptian imperialism was a reaction to almost being wiped out by foreigners during the 17th dynasty as I've shown above. Is there a problem with loving or being proud of your own nation? Funny how it's not a problem when other countries do it, but when American's do it somehow becomes bad or "fascist". Why is that?

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Certainly there was chauvinism in the Egyptians' part but their imperialism was different from that of the Romans, because Egyptian imperialism was a reaction to almost being wiped out by foreigners during the 17th dynasty as I've shown above.

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This shoudl be the end of discussion, no need to speculate and play little guessing games with bogus reconstructions when the A. Egyptian artists with functioning brains left clear, countless examples of how they, with their own two eyes, depicted Seti.

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No need for biodiversity google scholars to envoke Arabs and Europ[eans when there's still Egyptians alive today with the exact same features as Seti..

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Posts: 80 | From: USA, America | Registered: May 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Kimbles:
I have a question for you, are you an American? How do you think that man in the picture you posted will be received in the US? Would they think of him as a "black" man or would he be perceived as a dark-skinned Arabian man from the Middle East? I think that people, even Black folk, would not think of him as a black man and instead as an Arab. And not to throw my thread off, but this is kind of where things get a little confusing. Because just recently, Ive come to discover the real diversity that is Africa and of Black people. But I am not gonna lie, If would have seen him walking down the street in the past I would think he was an Arab man lol(and still kind of do).

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FWIW, my idea of an archetypal Arab person is considerably lighter than that dude. More like these:



Which is to say, more of a light yellowish brown.

The ancient Egyptians actually did portray such people in their artwork BTW:


--------------------
Brought to you by Brandon S. Pilcher

My art thread on ES

And my books thread

Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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As a Black person, I felt like a queen in parts of Egypt. For example, when we arrived in Aswan, right when I got off the boat, I was embraced and welcomed with “my cousin.” At other sites, specifically in the Aswan area, I would also be greeted with “Queen” or “my sister.” This makes sense considering that Aswan (which is at the tip of Egypt in the South) was once the heart of the Nubian empire, where you saw Black pharaohs. I was surprised to see how many people there looked like me and shared either my skin tone or darker. I felt like family -- and by the picture here -- they felt that way too

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
And the Afrocentrism Diop pioneered, had nothing to do with Olmecs, Native Americans, Greece or China etc

it is the same "Afrocentism" that Afrocentric African Zanib Badawi hosted Documentary where interviewed Afrocentric Nubian Egyptian claims a black(Majority) Egypt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4EjZpIF71Y

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Originally posted by Kimbles:
[I have a question for you, are you an American? How do you think that man in the picture you posted will be received in the US? Would they think of him as a "black" man or would he be perceived as a dark-skinned Arabian man from the Middle East? I think that people, even Black folk, would not think of him as a black man and instead as an Arab. And not to throw my thread off, but this is kind of where things get a little confusing. Because just recently, Ive come to discover the real diversity that is Africa and of Black people. But I am not gonna lie, If would have seen him walking down the street in the past I would think he was an Arab man lol(and still kind of do).

So what are your thoughts?

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by BrandonP:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:
I have a question for you, are you an American? How do you think that man in the picture you posted will be received in the US? Would they think of him as a "black" man or would he be perceived as a dark-skinned Arabian man from the Middle East? I think that people, even Black folk, would not think of him as a black man and instead as an Arab. And not to throw my thread off, but this is kind of where things get a little confusing. Because just recently, Ive come to discover the real diversity that is Africa and of Black people. But I am not gonna lie, If would have seen him walking down the street in the past I would think he was an Arab man lol(and still kind of do).

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FWIW, my idea of an archetypal Arab person is considerably lighter than that dude. More like these:



Which is to say, more of a light yellowish brown.

The ancient Egyptians actually did portray such people in their artwork BTW:

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*sigh*

Here we go again. And the fact that you decided to use Alladin our of all the other source photos you could have used is just...

Anyways, I don't think Peninsular Arabs would have looked the same way they do today back then. if many "Blacks" and "Whites" can come in many different shades of features, then why can't Middle Easterners?

Yeah, we get it, the Egyptians(and Seti I) would have what we consider in the US to have Black skin, in fact possibly darker then African-Americans. But still, it doesn't change the fact that they, and many Egyptians, did have some foreign remnants added to their culture(and I would think this would reflect in their genetics as well). All in all, it doesn't take away from the fact that they were 100% African culturally and genetically.

quote:

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As a Black person, I felt like a queen in parts of Egypt. For example, when we arrived in Aswan, right when I got off the boat, I was embraced and welcomed with “my cousin.” At other sites, specifically in the Aswan area, I would also be greeted with “Queen” or “my sister.” This makes sense considering that Aswan (which is at the tip of Egypt in the South) was once the heart of the Nubian empire, where you saw Black pharaohs. I was surprised to see how many people there looked like me and shared either my skin tone or darker. I felt like family -- and by the picture here -- they felt that way too.

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Okay so I've seen this from videos of African-Americans traveling to Egypt and going to ancestral Nubian villages in the South, but how do you know this isn't being said so that people can come shop at their stores and give them money? What does the average Egyptian know about Black American people? I dont know, let me just be quiet.

Posts: 80 | From: USA, America | Registered: May 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ The Ramesides at least their paternal origins are local to the Delta not Upper Egypt. While the cult of may originally be southern in origin, his cult was adopted by many in the Delta including foreigners from Asia since Set was a god of the desert and thus many people of desert nomad ancestry adopted him their patron deity.

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Since the discovery it was obvious that the Year 400 of Nubti was not a regnal year, but rather a sort of anniversary. Giving the 400-years interval and the explicit references to the god Seth, Nubti was initially considered an othervise unattested Hyksos ruler. Thus, it was suggested that the 400th anniversary could refer to an important event such as the construction of a temple of Seth, or, more generally, to the beginning of a new era. The discovery also fueled the now-disproven hypothesis that Tanis had to be identified with the ancient Hyksos capital Avaris, and that the stela may have been a commemoration of the arrival of the Hyksos.

In more modern times, however, scholars realized that the official Seti is none other than Ramesses' father Seti I in his early career, and the earlier king Nubti was not a real king, but rather Seth himself provided with fictitious royal titles. Going 400 years back before the period suggested by the stela (most likely when Seti was an official under king Horemheb), gives a datation of the celebrated event of around 1730–1720 BCE.

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Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] Sorry I don't want to come off as condesending but who cares what you or I think, the blacks of Egypt know exactly who they are. That man is not an Arab but an African, NATIVE EGYPTIAN, who's people who among the most important factors in the creation, preservation, innovation, and continuation of Ancient Nile Valley/Dynastic Egyptian culture from the predynastic until his people were the last folks writing Mdu Ntr on the temple walls.

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Thus, despite a superficial resemblance on our PCA, the present-day Nubian populations for which we have genotype data are not descended from a population related to the earlier Kulubnarti Nubians without additional admixture following the Christian Period

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Here's what his people think..


AFRICAN Nubian Elder to AA woman "Welcome to Nubia, Nubian American Lady"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvn1CTVbAQM


As a Black person, I felt like a queen in parts of Egypt. For example, when we arrived in Aswan, right when I got off the boat, I was embraced and welcomed with “my cousin.” At other sites, specifically in the Aswan area, I would also be greeted with “Queen” or “my sister.” This makes sense considering that Aswan (which is at the tip of Egypt in the South) was once the heart of the Nubian empire, where you saw Black pharaohs. I was surprised to see how many people there looked like me and shared either my skin tone or darker. I felt like family -- and by the picture here -- they felt that way too https://www.frannythetraveler.com/post/blackinegypt


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvJ0F299kFQ

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Yes Set was a god of the foreign, strange, and even 'left-hand path' so to speak but that was the image the Delta Egyptians in their Osirian myths.

Many people forget that Egyptian mythology varied by region and locale. Set was originally a god of Upper Egypt with his oldest cult centers being ther, but even in Heliopolitan myths in the north he served Ra as his guard and protector during his night journey. So he was not actually totally evil. The negative views of Set were more popular in the Delta but since Set was a god of foreigners he was adopted as the patron deity of Asiatics including the Hyksos. But because Set was also a warrior god and a god of the deserts he was taken up by many soldiers and nomads. The Ramesides fit with the former.

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Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimbles:
Okay so I've seen this from videos of African-Americans traveling to Egypt and going to ancestral Nubian villages in the South, but how do you know this isn't being said so that people can come shop at their stores and give them money? What does the average Egyptian know about Black American people? I dont know, let me just be quiet. [/QB]

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

Yeah, they knew excactly what "Nubti" was and what it implies...Nubti=A PErson from Nubt, i.e Kom Ombos



But Naw bro, the Egyptians were too stupid to depict Seti correctly, they're just playing games, depicting him with dark skin and he tying his lineage to Ta-Seti/The South...

Yeah Dog, Lets speculate what Seit looked like...Derp


^^^^
Did he look like this...hurr hurr...derp...

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ The Ramesides at least their paternal origins are local to the Delta not Upper Egypt. While the cult of may originally be southern in origin, his cult was adopted by many in the Delta including foreigners from Asia since Set was a god of the desert and thus many people of desert nomad ancestry adopted him their patron deity.

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Again this is mostly speculation. The closest thing we have to a document on the ancestry of the Ramessids is the year 400 stela and that stela has very clear statements tying Set to Nubt as it states point blank "Set Nubti". And it also makes it clear that Seti was "great of the Medjay" and "chief of the Archers which could suggest southern origins as Medjay have always been associated southerners. Not sure how desert nomads adopting set worship even factor into this unless people are simply speculating and trying to suggest that the Ramessids where desendants of these nomads when there is no evidence for it. Again, the iconography of the year 400 stela does depict Set in asiatic fashion, but outside of that, the text itself does not suggest Asiatic origins for the deity or the family worship of the deity.

quote:

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Since the discovery it was obvious that the Year 400 of Nubti was not a regnal year, but rather a sort of anniversary. Giving the 400-years interval and the explicit references to the god Seth, Nubti was initially considered an othervise unattested Hyksos ruler. Thus, it was suggested that the 400th anniversary could refer to an important event such as the construction of a temple of Seth, or, more generally, to the beginning of a new era. The discovery also fueled the now-disproven hypothesis that Tanis had to be identified with the ancient Hyksos capital Avaris, and that the stela may have been a commemoration of the arrival of the Hyksos.

In more modern times, however, scholars realized that the official Seti is none other than Ramesses' father Seti I in his early career, and the earlier king Nubti was not a real king, but rather Seth himself provided with fictitious royal titles. Going 400 years back before the period suggested by the stela (most likely when Seti was an official under king Horemheb), gives a datation of the celebrated event of around 1730–1720 BCE.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_400_Stela


Bolded parts indicating how at one time the Ramessids were claimed to be blonde/red headed descendants of Asiatics or Hyksos who worshiped Set. Mostly due to speculation more than anything else.

And beyond that the suggesting that the deity was depicted in "asiatic" form are also mostly speculation and wishful thinking.

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:

The Ramesside could be locals from the Delta and still be ethnically upper egyptian/nubian etc.

I am American and I still woke up this morning Blackity black

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In addition, one of the garrisons of Ramesses II held Set as its patron deity, and Ramesses II erected the so-called "Year 400 Stela" at Pi-Ramesses, commemorating the 400th anniversary of the Set cult in the Nile delta.[36]

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

@ DJ...I dont think anyone is denying that the Ramsedese family originated in the Delta, just the notion that they were of foreign or asiatic origin...

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I honestly was of the opinion that the "Great of Medjai" was nothing but a nothing burger considering that by that point in Egyptian history the Madjai became the word for police force, but honsestly Doug proved me wrong with this...
Year 400 stela:

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His Majesty has commanded to raise a great stela in granite for the great name of his fathers, in order to raise the name of the father of his fathers ( and for ) his father the King Men-Ma'at-Re, son of Re, Seti Mer-ne-Ptah lasting for eternity, like Re every day.

[quote]Year 400, the fourth month of the season of Shammu, the fourth day of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Seth-Great-of-valor, son of Re whom he loves, Nubti [11], beloved by Re-Hor-akhty, may he live for ever.

The Regent came, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the fanbearer on the right hand of the King [7], the leader of the bowmen, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw [8], the great of Medjay [9], the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry the lord master of the ceremonies of the Feast of the He-goat [10], the master of Smendes, the first prophet of Seth, the lector-priest of Wadjet-Opet-Tawy, the head of all priests of all the gods, Seti, right of voice, son of the Prince regent, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw, the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry, Paramesse [12], right of voice, born from the mistress of the house, the songstress of Re, Tiw, right of voice, he says :

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Honetly this is good, dame good evidence IMO of a reference to possible NHSY origin or association..

It could very well be a case of political PR,
IMO this is similar to how Ramses II built Abu Simbel to impress the NHSY in the region he built the temple

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Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Kimbles:

Well considering the accomplishments they gathered for Egypt at the time, I think that's grounds for some merit, right? I mean they conquered a lot of land and basically put Egypt on the map. Imagine if they were able to continue and keep expanding who knows what the Egyptians could have accomplished. But maybe that wasn't the goal, and instead was the push back against the foreigners(like Hittites, Kushites, and Libyans). But just something to think about.

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Okay, since the Egyptian royalty was considered matrilineal correct? That would mean the royal blood would be passed down through the woman and not the man. In that case, why weren't there many more female Pharaohs? Hmm, or was it just in the event that the Pharaoh was not able to father a male heir for the throne like in Horemheb's case?

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Who said I had an issue with American patriotism? I was just making a comparison to the type of patriotism that the AEs may have showed with something more modern to put into context. Although, I do think some forms of American patriotism are harmful and extremely damaging, there's nothing wrong in my book with being American. I like being American as I am one myself.

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So their imperialism was more so a defensive one. That makes sense. But why did they stop at that? They could have expanded into the Arabian Peninsula possibly, or was it just an expedition to try and keep foreigners out?

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As I explained above, it was an expedition to ensure Asiatics or Nubians could no longer invade them. This is why after the 18th dynasty conquered both Nubia and the Levant, they built a series of fortresses and made the native vassals including military forces to defend against outside foes.

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And if the Ramessides WERE originated in the Delta, that would mean they would come into contact with a lot of Asiatic foreigners, possibly mixing and mingling, exchange of culture, etc. But to oppose, I realize that at the time there were plenty of turmoil between Egyptians and foreigners, so how would it make Horemheb look to appoint a foreign Asiatic to ascend to the throne? it would be pretty stupid to do so, I think. Which makes me believe that although they may have originated in the Delta they were still native Egyptian.

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Even though the Hyksos were expelled from the Delta there were still Asiatic communities living there so I don't discount the possibility that the Ramesides had mixed Asiatic ancestry, but I just haven't seen any conclusive proof. Then there is the DNA study showing he carried E1b1a. So unless you or anyone can provide me evidence to the contrary I won't be holding my breath. And I don't want to hear the tired old argument about his facial features since apparently and ironically there are E1b1a carrying Sub-Saharan West African who have such features like this guy below.




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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Afro-americans have NW european ancestry

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Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

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So are you saying only Upper Egyptians were black but not Lower Egyptians of the Delta?? Even thought Greeks, Romans, and everyone else described Egyptians of the Delta coast as "black" too.

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Apparently Yatunde seems to identify being a black Egyptian to being Upper Egyptian only.

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvn1CTVbAQM

As a Black person, I felt like a queen in parts of Egypt. For example, when we arrived in Aswan, right when I got off the boat, I was embraced and welcomed with “my cousin.” At other sites, specifically in the Aswan area, I would also be greeted with “Queen” or “my sister.” This makes sense considering that Aswan (which is at the tip of Egypt in the South) was once the heart of the Nubian empire, where you saw Black pharaohs. I was surprised to see how many people there looked like me and shared either my skin tone or darker. I felt like family -- and by the picture here -- they felt that way too

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Heres a interesting video of Nubian from Aswan who believes his ancestors followed the god Hapi from communities in Kenya,Rwanda etc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYyUQGtxBT8

Im not saying what he's saying is necessarily true, but its interesting to hear these peoples outlooks of who they're and where they come from IMO

Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023  |  IP: Logged |