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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Yeah. As I already mentioned there were waves of migration from the Levant and Mesopotamia into Arabia during the Bronze to Iron Ages. The linguistics is just one proof of this, not to mention the reference in Biblical Genesis speaks of the Hebrews (Ebrim--descendants of Eber) as divided into two branches-- Peleg progenitor of the northern Hebrews and Joktan progenitor of the southern Hebrews who made their way into Arabia as far south as Yemen, with the original inhabitants of the region said to be Hamites. On a linguistic note there is Alexander Militarev's hypothesis of a Cushitic substratum in Arabian languages especially South Semitic, as well as the mysterious language in the Sabean inscription from Marib showing Nilo-Saharan features.

The recent 'whitening' in Arabia especially around the Gulf and in Oman and Yemen is due Iranian population influence with many Iranians becoming Arabized and intermarrying with locals.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
The linguistics is just one proof of this, not to mention the reference in Biblical Genesis speaks of the Hebrews (Ebrim--descendants of Eber) as divided into two branches-- Peleg progenitor of the northern Hebrews and Joktan progenitor of the southern Hebrews who made their way into Arabia as far south as Yemen, with the original inhabitants of the region said to be Hamites.

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Posts: 7083 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Forty2Tribes:
[No, Africa doesn't warp anything
Panel (e) is the most recent of the maps at 30,000 years ago and there are haplogroups that have evolved since then
In Panel(e) the fact that in Europe there is a pie chart with light green, orange and yellow
and In Africa there are are dots which include the same light green, orange and yellow does not mean those are haplogroups or proxy for them

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they have common genotype but some mutations, we call haplogroups evolved inside Africa and others didn't
-and the DNA comprising the haplogroup, the sex based DNA is only a small fraction of all the DNA (although it can be followed back in time)

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Published: 14 July 2020
A Southeast Asian origin for present-day non-African human Y chromosomes
Pille Hallast, Anastasia Agdzhoyan, Oleg Balanovsky, Yali Xue & Chris Tyler-Smith
Human Genetics volume 140, pages299–307 (2021)

Abstract
The genomes of present-day humans outside Africa originated almost entirely from a single out-migration ~ 50,000–70,000 years ago, followed by mixture with Neanderthals contributing ~ 2% to all non-Africans. However, the details of this initial migration remain poorly understood because no ancient DNA analyses are available from this key time period, and interpretation of present-day autosomal data is complicated due to subsequent population movements/reshaping. One locus, however, does retain male-specific information from this early period: the Y chromosome, where a detailed calibrated phylogeny has been constructed. Three present-day Y lineages were carried by the initial migration: the rare haplogroup D, the moderately rare C, and the very common FT lineage which now dominates most non-African populations. Here, we show that phylogenetic analyses of haplogroup C, D and FT sequences, including very rare deep-rooting lineages, together with phylogeographic analyses of ancient and [b]present-day non-African Y chromosomes, all point to East/Southeast Asia as the origin 50,000–55,000 years ago of all known surviving non-African male lineages (apart from recent migrants). This observation contrasts with the expectation of a West Eurasian origin predicted by a simple model of expansion from a source near Africa, and can be interpreted as resulting from extensive genetic drift in the initial population or replacement of early western Y lineages from the east, thus informing and constraining models of the initial expansion.


According to serial founder model, the earliest-branching non-African lineages are expected to expand and be present closer to Africa (a), but instead have expanded in East or Southeast Asia (b). Simplified Y tree is shown as reference for colours

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Presence of haplogroups C, D and F in 2302 present-day samples. The map demonstrates how many of the three haplogroups of interest (none, one, two, or all three) were found in different areas of the Old World and Near Oceania. Black dots indicate the locations of the studied populations

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Look at what their theory is based on.

Frequency of all of them together.




The study I sourced found C near Africa and based an African origin on the clades. They actually did the hard work. We know where F is in Africa. Instead of studying the clades of African F which would really make their case if they were downstream from east Asian clades, they just overlayed 3 Wiki maps and sited a few old clades of D, C and F from other studies.

The founder's effect would make it easier to find D, C and F in distant populations regardless of origin.

Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:

I would believe Dana first about the color of Muhammad peace be upon him... before any conclusions reached by any posters on this board.


“…all the peoples settled in the Harra besides the Banu Sulaym are black. These tribes take slaves from among the Eshban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their wives from among the Byzantines… ” Al Jahiz of Iraq born 776 A.D. on the tribes of the region of Northwestern Arabia found in Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh.


“Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying, ‘… a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome and Persia. ” From Al Dhahabi of Damascus Syria, in Seyar ‘Alam al-Nubala’a, (Biography of Eminent Nobles) cited on p. 55, The Unknown Arabs, 2002, by Tariq Berry.


“As for the black sheep, they are the Arabs. They will accept Islam and become many. The white sheep are the non-Arab Persians and the like. They will accept Islam and become so many that the Arabs will not be noticed amongst them.” From the 15th c. writer, El-Suyuti of Egypt, in Taarikh in El Khulafaa quoting Abu Bakr “a companion” of the Prophet’s interpreting his dream. Cited on p. 80, in The Unknown Arabs, 2002.


The irony of history is that early Arab-speaking historians and linguists made a distinction between the Arabs in Arabia and the fair-skinned peoples to the north, and contrary to what may be fact in our day, in the days of early Islam, those called “Arabs” looked down condescendingly on fair-skinned populations and commonly used the phrase “fair-skinned as a slave” when describing individuals in tribes in the peninsula that were pale in complexion. According to the text Iqd el Farid or the Precious Necklace of Ibn Rabbu or Rabbih of Cordoba (born 860 A.D. ), there were very few things as “rare” and “unthinkable” as a fair-skinned Arab. Of course, today due mainly to slavery and conversion of peoples to the “Arab” nationality, the opposite is thought to be true by many in the West.


This is a good 20 minute video on the SLAVIC slave ( redundant) also helped to whiten north africa/levant arabia aka greater africa


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU2KwlWL1Us

#Slavic #Slaves #History
Introduction to the Slavic Slave Trade

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Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by BrandonP:

Speaking of Hamites, what do you make of the Bible classifying Canaanites as Hamitic? A lot of archaeologists nowadays argue that the Hebrews were an outgrowth of a Canaanite culture, and it appears the Phoenicians further north called themselves "Kena'ani" which is eerily similar to Canaanite. It seems a bit weird to me that the Hebrews would associate Canaanites with (mostly black) Hamites and themselves as Shemites when they were so closely related.

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A good source on the topic would be this book:



Goldenberg explains that the Land of Canaan was inhabited by a variety of peoples and tribes though its "Hamitic" identity was ascribed specifically to natives in the southern areas around the Negeb and Edom who were described as "dark-skinned" or "kushi". This well could be a memory of Natufian descendants in the area.

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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Goldenberg explains that the Land of Canaan was inhabited by a variety of peoples and tribes though its "Hamitic" identity was ascribed specifically to natives in the southern areas around the Negeb and Edom who were described as "dark-skinned" or "kushi". This well could be a memory of Natufian descendants in the area.

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Posts: 7083 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Yes, it seems what is todays Israel have been inhabited by several peoples over time. First Natufians, then neolithic peoples and then different groups with roots in Iran and Caucasus.

In Peki´in cave in northern Israel we find traces of people whose main Y-DNA haplogroup was T. In Bronze age Canaanite burials we find mostly Y-DNA haplogroup J. Earlier, in the neolithic E seems most common.

The people at Peki´n had a genetic disposition for light hair and light skin.

Ancient DNA from Chalcolithic Israel reveals the role of population mixture in cultural transformation (Nature 2018)

The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant (Cell 2020)

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Ancient DNA from Chalcolithic Israel reveals the role of population mixture in cultural transformation
Éadaoin Harney, et al, 2018

Abstract
The material culture of the Late Chalcolithic period in the southern Levant (4500–3900/3800 BCE) is qualitatively distinct from previous and subsequent periods. Here, to test the hypothesis that the advent and decline of this culture was influenced by movements of people, we generated genome-wide ancient DNA from 22 individuals from Peqi’in Cave, Israel. These individuals were part of a homogeneous population that can be modeled as deriving ~57% of its ancestry from groups related to those of the local Levant Neolithic, ~17% from groups related to those of the Iran Chalcolithic, and ~26% from groups related to those of the Anatolian Neolithic. The Peqi’in population also appears to have contributed differently to later Bronze Age groups, one of which we show cannot plausibly have descended from the same population as that of Peqi’in Cave. These results provide an example of how population movements propelled cultural changes in the deep past.

It has been estimated that the burial cave contained up to 600 individuals, making it the largest burial site ever identified from the Late Chalcolithic period in the Levant. Direct radiocarbon dating suggests that the cave was in use throughout the Late Chalcolithic (4500–3900 BCE), functioning as a central burial location for the region

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We find that the individuals buried in Peqi’in Cave represent a relatively genetically homogenous population. This homogeneity is evident not only in the genome-wide analyses but also in the fact that most of the male individuals (nine out of ten) belong to the Y-chromosome haplogroup T (see Supplementary Table 1), a lineage thought to have diversified in the Near East46. This finding contrasts with both earlier (Neolithic and Epipaleolithic) Levantine populations, which were dominated by haplogroup E24, and later Bronze Age individuals, all of whom belonged to haplogroup J

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wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184

Haplogroup T-M184


Haplogroup T-M184, also known as Haplogroup T, is a human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup.
T1 (T-L206) – the numerically dominant primary branch of T-M184 – appears to have originated in Western Asia, and possibly spread from there into the East Africa, South Asia, Southern Europe and adjoining regions.


Haplogroup T is found at exceptionally high levels amongst the Dir and Isaaq clans in the Somaliland,[a][6] Djibouti, and Ethiopia.[7][8] it is also found at relatively high levels in specific populations in other parts of the world. These include Kurru, Bauris and Lodha in South Asia; among Toubou in Chad; and in a significant minority of Rajus and Mahli in South Asia; general Somalis, southern Egyptians and Fula (Fulbe) in north Cameroon; people from the Chian, Aquilani, Saccensi, Ibizan (Eivissenc) and Mirandese regions in Europe; Zoroastrians, Bakhtiaris in the Middle East, and Nenets and Kazakhs (especially Momyns and Argyns) in Siberia/Central Asia

Approximately 3% of Sephardi Jews and 2% of Ashkenazi Jews belong to haplogroup T.





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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toubou_people

The Toubou or Tubu (from Old Tebu, meaning "rock people"[9]) are an ethnic group native to the Tibesti Mountains[10] that inhabit the central Sahara in northern Chad, southern Libya and northeastern Niger. They live either as herders and nomads or as farmers near oases.

According to a study published in The American Journal of Human Genetics (Haber et al. 2016) that examined Y-DNA haplogroups from samples obtained from 75 Toubou men, haplogroups associated with paternal Eurasian ancestry were present at rates of 34% for R1b, 31% for T1a, and 1% for J1. The African associated haplogroup E-M78 were present at rates of 28%, while E-M81 appeared at a rate of 5%.[24] The study also found that 20-30% of Toubou autosomal DNA was Eurasian in origin, and their African ancestral component was best represented by Laal-speaking populations. The most likely source of this Eurasian DNA, according to the analysis, would be a population originating among Near Eastern farmers during the Neolithic Revolution. In contrast, Near Eastern populations scored African ancestry at a rate of 7%-14% (Yemen) to 0.7%-5% (Lebanese Christians). Other ethnic groups in the Chad, such as the Sara people and the Laal speakers had considerably lower Eurasian admixture, at only 0.3%-2% (Sara) and 1.25%-4.5% (Laal)

Posts: 42936 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by BrandonP:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Goldenberg explains that the Land of Canaan was inhabited by a variety of peoples and tribes though its "Hamitic" identity was ascribed specifically to natives in the southern areas around the Negeb and Edom who were described as "dark-skinned" or "kushi". This well could be a memory of Natufian descendants in the area.

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Makes sense. There's also the Shulammite woman in the Biblical "Song of Songs" book who describes herself as "black, but comely". She could very well be one of those Natufian descendants you mentioned.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Songs

Song of Songs


The most reliable evidence for its date is its language: Aramaic gradually replaced Hebrew after the end of the Babylonian exile in the late 6th century BCE, and the evidence of vocabulary, morphology, idiom and syntax clearly point to a late date, centuries after King Solomon to whom it is traditionally attributed. It has parallels with Mesopotamian and Egyptian love poetry from the first half of the 1st millennium, and with the pastoral idylls of Theocritus, a Greek poet who wrote in the first half of the 3rd century BCE; as a result of these conflicting signs, speculation ranges from the 10th to the 2nd centuries BCE, with the language supporting a date around the 3rd century.

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@Djehuti
It's highly usual for an ancient text like the bible for a person to say that they are a color
or for someone else to say they are a color

We might find references to "black skinned" but it
it is highly rare to find a statement like this:
"I am black" or "She was black"
and not have any reference to skin in the statement
(although in modern times this happens all the time and is how millions of people identify themselves - as a color)

But looking at this Solomon verse it seems fair to assume that whoever wrote it when describing a person as "black but..." means that whatever group they are from they would not call themselves black, otherwise she would not be pointing out that she was black, they would all be or most of them

We don't know exactly how the person would define "black" who wrote this verse in Song of Solomon.

Would it be safe to assume, that if by Middle Eastern location that whoever wrote this
is a person some shade of brown?

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

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So in your estimation could people as dark as these young, if they lived in the time that Song of Solomon was written could they have written a statement that excluded them from being black?

I think it's safe to assume that whoever wrote Song of Solomon was not part of a group of people that were as light was the average Western European
My question is what is the darkest they could have been and still not have called themselves "black"?


https://www.pinterest.com/pin/236720524134093402/
Hamar girl near Turmi. Omo Valley, Ethiopia © Johan Gerrits

She is not the darkest Ethiopian or the lightest
but her skin tone is common

I'm wondering when the Song says "black, but comely" if she would be dark enough from the perspective of whoever wrote that
Her skin is pretty close to be similar to those Arab men

So I'm wondering to what group being black would be and exception to,
but there are also metaphoric possibilities
so we don't really know how literal it is

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Lamentations 4:7-8

7 Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:

8 Their visage is blacker than a coal; they are not known in the streets: their skin cleaveth to their bones; it is withered, it is become like a stick.

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Posts: 42936 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:

Yes, it seems what is todays Israel have been inhabited by several peoples over time. First Natufians, then neolithic peoples and then different groups with roots in Iran and Caucasus.

In Peki´in cave in northern Israel we find traces of people whose main Y-DNA haplogroup was T. In Bronze age Canaanite burials we find mostly Y-DNA haplogroup J. Earlier, in the neolithic E seems most common.

The people at Peki´n had a genetic disposition for light hair and light skin.

Ancient DNA from Chalcolithic Israel reveals the role of population mixture in cultural transformation (Nature 2018)

The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant (Cell 2020)



Graphical Abstract from the 2020 article

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From Ullinger and Turner II et ales. Bioarchaeological Analysis of Cultural Transition in the Southern Levant Using Dental Nonmetric Traits

Nevertheless, in comparisons with Iron Age Italy, Dothan was more similar than Lachish to the Italian group and may have been more heavily influenced by (or influential upon) Europeans from the Mediterranean. Dothan also appears to have been phenetically more similar than Lachish to almost all other samples. Even though Lachish was a larger, more cosmopolitan city (Tufnell, 1953), it may have been more genetically isolated than Dothan.

and..

Using the mean measure of divergence (MMD) statistic to study dental affinity, this study found the Lacish sample to be most similar to a sample Dothan and then a sample from a tomb at St. Stephen’s monastery in Jerusalem, dating from approximately 438–611 AD. A Natufian sample was **most distant** from the Lacish sample.

And we have the recent study on the autosomal DNA of Philistines

Abstract
The ancient Mediterranean port city of Ashkelon, identified as “Philistine” during the Iron Age, underwent a marked cultural change between the Late Bronze and the early Iron Age. It has been long debated whether this change was driven by a substantial movement of people, possibly linked to a larger migration of the so-called “Sea Peoples.” Here, we report genome-wide data of 10 Bronze and Iron Age individuals from Ashkelon. We find that the early Iron Age population was genetically distinct due to a European-related admixture. This genetic signal is no longer detectible in the later Iron Age population. Our results support that a migration event occurred during the Bronze to Iron Age transition in Ashkelon but did not leave a long-lasting genetic signature.




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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

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Although this study focuses on the Bronze Age, it also reports two new samples from the Iron Age—one from Megiddo and the other from Abel Beth Maacah. These two individuals show ancestry patterns that are very similar to those observed in the Middle and Late Bronze Age individuals (Figure 4), suggesting that the destruction at the end of the Bronze Age in the region did not necessarily lead to genetic discontinuity in each and every site. Notably, both Abel Beth Maacah and Megiddo are inland cities, and their genetic continuity throughout the transition from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age might not be representative of other sites in the region. For example, one of the two Iron Age populations in the Philistine coastal city of Ashkelon (ASH_IA1) showed evidence of mobility of populations related to southern Europe around the Bronze Age to Iron Age transition (Feldman et al., 2019).

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