quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Lighter skin has always existed among various African groups as there is no single skin color in Africa and there never has been. So we can safely say that among certain populations in Northern parts of Africa there has always been an indigenous lighter skinned component.
what are the names of some of these groups?
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Oh, I assumed that this was already common knowledge by now? In short the origins of the "White North African" stems from an invasion conducted by a Syrio-Palestinian invading group known as the Meshwesh.
These men ruled over the Libyans and mixed with them to produce soldiers that would eventually invade Egypt during the 18th dynasty. Thus the in the tomb of Kherouef
the "White North African makes their debut" and they initiate what we now refer to as the "Sea people invasions"
quote:Originally posted by Ibis: Oh, I assumed that this was already common knowledge by now? In short the origins of the "White North African" stems from an invasion conducted by a Syrio-Palestinian invading group known as the Meshwesh.
No, "common knowledge" is not credible you need a reference for the above theory, to a published article or page number in a book which discusses evidence for the theory
Doug was talking about an indigenous lighter skinned population
Scholars often discuss Libyans and Sea people as separate groups
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Lighter skin has always existed among various African groups as there is no single skin color in Africa and there never has been. So we can safely say that among certain populations in Northern parts of Africa there has always been an indigenous lighter skinned component.
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^ Why is there even a debate when we have genetic evidence showing that light skin was introduced to North Africa by foreign populations.
Ancient Genomes of North Africa IAM (Early Neolithic) people did not possess any of the European SNPs associated with light pigmentation, and most likely had dark skin and eyes. IAM samples contain ancestral alleles for pigmentation-associated variants present in SLC24A5 (rs1426654), SLC45A2 (rs16891982), and OCA2 (rs1800401 and 12913832) genes. On the other hand, KEB (Late Neolithic) individuals exhibit some European-derived alleles that predispose individuals to lighter skin and eye color, including those on genes SLC24A5 (rs1426654) and OCA2 (rs1800401).
Neolithic (Josef Eiwanger 1987) Orange: Cardial and Impressoceramics Brown: Neolithic Capsian tradition light green: Saharo-Sudanese cultures (Khartoum culture, Shaheinab culture) red: Neolithic of the Niger purple: Levant - Old Neolithic (Fayum Neolithic, Merimde) green: Upper Egyptian Neolithic (Badari)
^ As for northeast Africa we have not only historical accounts from Greeks, Hebrews, and Assyrians, but genetic samples from Egyptians showing them to be melanated, and ironically the same is shown with some Natufian DNA in the Levant. Natufians were Dark-skinned?
So it is the presence of light-skin that needs an explanation not dark-skin. Although how dark the complexion is a different issue.
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Most of the Saharan rock art show brown people but there are some exceptions. How to interpret the exceptions is another matter. Are they a sign of more light skinned groups that are not well known? Maybe they are a result of artistic conventions? Do they descend from later immigrants?
About 3000 BC we have a couple of such pictures in Sahara, like the light bovine riding ladies from Uan Derbuaen (Tasili-n-Ajjer, Algeria). I seen others too, belonging at least to the later parts of the bovine style/period.
Four ladies on a painting from Uan Derbuaen (Tasili-n-Ajjer, Algeria)
Their authenticity has been questioned, but at least the rock art expert Jean-Loïc Le Quellec says they are authentic,
An interesting detail on the painting is the cone or pot on the head of at least one of the women. It looks like similar headgear in Egypt and other places. But it can of course be a coincident.
When it comes to later time we have well known Egyptian pictures of relatively light skinned Libyans, and later in history there are even mentionings in the literature of light haired Libyans. Among such mentionings are the 3rd century BC Greek author Callimachus and the 4th century BC author of the Pseudo-Scylax who both talk about yellow haired Libyan women.
But it is maybe hard to pinpoint exactly when light skin first existed in North Africa. We need more DNA.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Most of the Saharan rock art show brown people but there are some exceptions. How to interpret the exceptions is another matter. Are they a sign of more light skinned groups that are not well known? Maybe they are a result of artistic conventions? Do they descend from later immigrants?
About 3000 BC we have a couple of such pictures in Sahara, like the light bovine riding ladies from Uan Derbuaen (Tasili-n-Ajjer, Algeria). I seen others too, belonging at least to the later parts of the bovine style/period.
Four ladies on a painting from Uan Derbuaen (Tasili-n-Ajjer, Algeria)
Their authenticity has been questioned, but at least the rock art expert Jean-Loïc Le Quellec says they are authentic,
An interesting detail on the painting is the cone or pot on the head of at least one of the women. It looks like similar headgear in Egypt and other places. But it can of course be a coincident.
When it comes to later time we have well known Egyptian pictures of relatively light skinned Libyans, and later in history there are even mentionings in the literature of light haired Libyans. Among such mentionings are the 3rd century BC Greek author Callimachus and the 4th century BC author of the Pseudo-Scylax who both talk about yellow haired Libyan women.
But it is maybe hard to pinpoint exactly when light skin first existed in North Africa. We need more DNA.
Yes as a general rule Tassili Rock art shows human figures painted in brown color but there are exceptions. I'm not discounting the possibility that the ladies were light-skinned but neither am I discounting that this depiction could possibly be stylistic in the similar manner ancient Egyptians rendered women in a yellow color.
What's funny is that the four ladies all seem to sport Fulani hairstyles as Tukuler has often pointed out.
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I love how this picture is spammed the world over as proof of wondering KaKazoids below the magical SSA barrier, but let someone use a historical photo of dark skinned folks in Europe, Asia or the Americas and whole nations melt down and clutch pearls calling those folks Afrocentrics…the hypocrisy is astounding.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Most of the Saharan rock art show brown people but there are some exceptions. How to interpret the exceptions is another matter. Are they a sign of more light skinned groups that are not well known? Maybe they are a result of artistic conventions? Do they descend from later immigrants?
About 3000 BC we have a couple of such pictures in Sahara, like the light bovine riding ladies from Uan Derbuaen (Tasili-n-Ajjer, Algeria). I seen others too, belonging at least to the later parts of the bovine style/period.
Four ladies on a painting from Uan Derbuaen (Tasili-n-Ajjer, Algeria)
Their authenticity has been questioned, but at least the rock art expert Jean-Loïc Le Quellec says they are authentic,
An interesting detail on the painting is the cone or pot on the head of at least one of the women. It looks like similar headgear in Egypt and other places. But it can of course be a coincident.
When it comes to later time we have well known Egyptian pictures of relatively light skinned Libyans, and later in history there are even mentionings in the literature of light haired Libyans. Among such mentionings are the 3rd century BC Greek author Callimachus and the 4th century BC author of the Pseudo-Scylax who both talk about yellow haired Libyan women.
But it is maybe hard to pinpoint exactly when light skin first existed in North Africa. We need more DNA.
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Lioness's correction to my confusing the ancient Greek melanchroes to the modern racial classification of melanochroi has reminded me that even racist anthropologist Carleton Coon in his Races of Africa classified the coastal Maghreb and Atlas area to be predominantly of "Aryan" extraction that is European and not like the indigenous North African Mediterranean types that skin color wise would be called "melanochroi".
This is why Antalas who is from that region looks like this.
And why his people look like this.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: There is barely any berber diaspora in the US and egyptians aren't representative of all north africans, they in general are significantly darker than berbers. Most north africans live along the coast and look like me :
Meanwhile, according to Coon Maghrebi Berbers are the result of European (Aryan types) immigrating and absorbing the original melanochroi population which he describes as "gracile Mediterranean types".
Coon’s photo of a “gracile Mediterranean” Shluh Berber of Morocco
modern day Shluh Moroccan
Of course melanocrhoi are not the same as 'negroes' as the map above shows.
ADMIN WARNING: DO NOT repeat DO NOT post pictures of people without their consent even if said picture has their faces crossed out.
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^ Although most of Africans' genetic diversity is indigenous there is a obviously a fraction that is due to foreign influence.
In the case of North Africa there were indeed white European types with red and blonde hair.
At present, and until a great mass of new and scientifically gathered evidence shall have been collected, only one main fact is indisputable—viz. that the so-called Hamitic race has absorbed a number of foreign ethnic elements, which it has not succeeded in wholly assimilating physically, though it has imposed upon them this or that Hamitic dialect. The original pure Hamitic type seems to be that found among the Saharan Berbers—a type tall, spare, long-limbed, and dark (brun); hair black or dark brown, straight or wavy; head dolichocephalic, orthognathous; nose slightly aquiline or straight; eyes dark and piercing, set rather widely apart; mouth well-defined; facial capillary system slightly developed; movements generally slow and dignified. In the west, between the Wady Dra'ah ("Wed Draa") and the Senegal, this type has become fused with the Negro elements from the south, the resultant type sharing the physical peculiarities of both progenitors. The same thing appears to have happened in the case of the various Hamitic peoples of East Africa.
The most important extra-African elements among the Hamites are the brachycephalic Berbers and the blonds. Both, as one would a priori expect, are found in the north. The brachycephals are, almost certainly, invaders, since they form but a small group near the northern seaboard of the dolichocephalic African continent. The blonds are much more numerous, but are even more clearly of extra-African origin. Various theories have been advanced to account for the presence of this xanthochroid element in Africa, it even having been asserted that the blonds owed their origin to the Vandals. This is, however, not only in itself incredible, owing to the number and distribution of the xanthochroids in the fastnesses of Morocco, but is even flatly contradicted by the ancient evidence. Whatever may be the true significance of the word Tehenu, which some would have to mean "fair" or "bright " (scil. "people"), evidence of a more satisfactory nature is to be found in the Egyptian monuments. For whereas the Libyan in earlier Egyptian art is regularly a brun, later representations exist showing Libyans not only blond, but even with red hair and blue eyes." Classical notices of blond Africans also exist; and though they are few, they are explicit. The Greek colonists of Cyrene are mentioned by Callimachus as dancing with the blond Libyan women.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The most important extra-African elements among the Hamites are the brachycephalic Berbers and the blonds. Both, as one would a priori expect, are found in the north. The brachycephals are, almost certainly, invaders, since they form but a small group near the northern seaboard of the dolichocephalic African continent. The blonds are much more numerous, but are even more clearly of extra-African origin. Various theories have been advanced to account for the presence of this xanthochroid element in Africa, it even having been asserted that the blonds owed their origin to the Vandals. This is, however, not only in itself incredible, owing to the number and distribution of the xanthochroids in the fastnesses of Morocco, but is even flatly contradicted by the ancient evidence. Whatever may be the true significance of the word Tehenu, which some would have to mean "fair" or "bright " (scil. "people"), evidence of a more satisfactory nature is to be found in the Egyptian monuments. For whereas the Libyan in earlier Egyptian art is regularly a brun, later representations exist showing Libyans not only blond, but even with red hair and blue eyes." Classical notices of blond Africans also exist; and though they are few, they are explicit. The Greek colonists of Cyrene are mentioned by Callimachus as dancing with the blond Libyan women.[/i]
Thanks for the link to that book, especially since I had questions on how ancient Libyans related to western Amazigh the other day. Skimming through the chapter on dress and ornamentation, it's funny how these European-admixed Libyans still shared some customs with darker-skinned African groups in addition to speaking African languages. They're almost the Bronze Age equivalent of Vanilla Ice or Iggy Azalea.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, unlike the much later Afrikaners of South Africa, this was truly a case of European immigrants assimilating into an African culture.
But the converse also took place in the Iberian Peninsula with African immigrants assimilating into the local cultures there.
I wonder what that process would have actually looked like. Wouldn't it be more probable for immigrants to adopt an indigenous culture if the indigenous people outnumbered them? Because, if so, that might have implications for how European the resulting Libyans (and other coastal NW Africans in Bronze to Iron Age times) might have actually looked.
The fact that we do have the occasional AE depiction of dark-skinned Tehenu* makes me inclined to think that they could have actually been somewhat variable in skin tone, or at least more than the Book of Gates representations imply.
* BTW, despite how we were talking about them in the 2000s, Tehenu are actually the coastal Libyans whereas Temehu/Tamehou are the interior ones.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: I wonder what that process would have actually looked like. Wouldn't it be more probable for immigrants to adopt an indigenous culture if the indigenous people outnumbered them? Because, if so, that might have implications for how European the resulting Libyans (and other coastal NW Africans in Bronze to Iron Age times) might have actually looked.
The indigenous majority vs. immigrant minority argument is not always valid. As I pointed out the Dutch Afrikaners (along with the later British) were/are a minority in South Africa but they obviously did not assimilate into the indigenous culture; on the contrary it was the opposite because the Europeans were a colonial presence who imposed their culture on the indigenous populace. So it depends on the cultural views of the immigrant people. Another example would be the Proto-Semites or Pre-proto-Semites in Asia. Depending on what area of SW Asia they were in and likely how much admixture they had with the indigenous populace, there were different levels of assimilation, with Semitic speakers in Mesopotamia perhaps being no different from the other groups except in language.
quote:The fact that we do have the occasional AE depiction of dark-skinned Tehenu* makes me inclined to think that they could have actually been somewhat variable in skin tone, or at least more than the Book of Gates representations imply.[/b]
As Bates pointed out all Tehenu in the Old Kingdom were of the same complexion as the Egyptians. I don't know about the Middle Kingdom, but definitely by the New Kingdom you see variation in types from fair-blonde and red-head types to olive skin types to the original type. The latter are identified with tribes farther west like the Libu and Meshwesh so something was going on in those areas. If not the Sea Peoples, then their predecessors from Europe.
quote:[qb]* BTW, despite how we were talking about them in the 2000s, Tehenu are actually the coastal Libyans whereas Temehu/Tamehou are the interior ones.
Yeah, back then I used to get confused over the names. LOL But I still identify Tehenu with the original Delta people or at least the western part of the Delta. The Temehu are obviously identified with the Waheti (Oases) People of the Western Desert.
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^ That reminds me of a phenomenon that Bates or Briggs and other ethnologists spoke of-- that being the 'blue-eyed Tuareg'. It's rare but it occurs. Foreign admixture may not be the cause because it happens among noble, allegedly 'pure-blood' castes who in everything else display the dark 'Hamitic' type. Of course it's not unusual for blue eyes to occur among black populations like those of Melanesia and Australia.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26516 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: As Bates pointed out all Tehenu in the Old Kingdom were of the same complexion as the Egyptians. I don't know about the Middle Kingdom, but definitely by the New Kingdom you see variation in types from fair-blonde and red-head types to olive skin types to the original type. The latter are identified with tribes farther west like the Libu and Meshwesh so something was going on in those areas. If not the Sea Peoples, then their predecessors from Europe.
seems to be a blue eyed Libyan, which I have never seen before depicted
He sure has big lips
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2731 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Here is some talk from another youtuber talking about north african and east african dna and phenotypes etc..
ancient egyptian are East African (black)dna @AncestralBrew
quote: #history #africa #egyptian #ancient #ancientcivilization #now #wow #egypt #art #europe this is a breakdown of the genetic history of east Africa in its highest component
quote:Originally posted by Ibis: Oh, I assumed that this was already common knowledge by now? In short the origins of the "White North African" stems from an invasion conducted by a Syrio-Palestinian invading group known as the Meshwesh.
These men ruled over the Libyans and mixed with them to produce soldiers that would eventually invade Egypt during the 18th dynasty. Thus the in the tomb of Kherouef
the "White North African makes their debut" and they initiate what we now refer to as the "Sea people invasions"
Correct! However I will still consider Herodotus claim that the Meshwesh were descendants of the trojans
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2731 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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If the identification is accurate, this might indicate a Middle Kingdom-era arrival for lighter-skinned Libyans.
Thanks, I'll keep this in mind. Some North African
Methodology and African Prehistory edited by Joseph Ki-Zerbo
I read this whole article on UNESCO he never sites his source for Old Kingdom references to blonde hair and blue eyes
Some north african " ethiopians" resembled cretans because they were descended from cretans just like the PHilistines were descended from cretans
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Chief X is an agent, in all that " agent " means in this here USA. A plant an informant probably FBI to smoke out black identity extremists
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^ There are no references to white or blonde Berbers in the Old Kingdom. The first references to such people comes from the Middle Kingdom as Brandon cites.
Also, the idea that the lighter-skinned Berbers--not the Nordic types but the dark-haired ones-- originated from Syria-Palestine is something I've read about before in several sources. This largely stems from not just physical appearance but also certain attire.
And not only appearance and attire...
The Greek Age of Bronze Sea Peoples The Great Karnak inscription of the Pharaoh Merneptah also states that at least three of the Sea Peoples, the Ekwesh, Sheklesh and Sherden, were circumcised. It is interesting to note in any event, the biblical emphasis on the Philistines as uncircumcised and the fact that they are almost the only group so labeled in the biblical corpus suggest that they may have been the archetype of "uncircumcision" for the biblical authors.
This image of Sherden chief closely resembles that of Semites as the Egyptians habitually portrayed them, and also suggests that Sherden were native to the East with its ancient Semitic population. As already mentioned also the Sherden together the Ekwesh, and Sheklesh were circumcised as states in the Great Karnak inscription of the Pharaoh Merneptah.
So it's clear that some of these Sea Peoples adopted the African specifically Afroasiatic custom of circumcision. As for the Meshwesh who were not a Sea People but a Libyan group, that they descend from the Trojans is a curious claim considering Virgil's epic Aeneid which describes how the Trojan prince Aeneas led a group of refugees fleeing the Greek sacking of Troy, and how before their final destination in Latium they stopped in the recently founded Phoenician colony of Carthage in Tunisia.
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The Meshwesh were newcomers from elsewhere and were NOT indigenous Lybians as and neither were Rebu
The fact that the Meshwesh needed head shawls because of the heat unlike other libyans is a clear indication of their origin elsewhere.
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^ I never said they were indigenous but simply that they were Libyan in that they lived in Libya. As to where they are from is anybody's guess but you seem to act as if you know the answers. Tukuler was the first to post hints that they may be Asiatic, if that's the case then they and likely the some of the Sea People whom they allied with were also Asiatic and I presume to be Phoenicians themselves if not a related people as the Phoenicians were the ones who dominated the Mediterranean before the Greeks and settled in many areas throughout that basin.
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To refer to them as " libyan " is an old mistake and causes modern confusion
It was also Clyde Winters back in 2011 on egyptsearch who sourced good historical quotes for this but he was ignored and I am sure many others have pointed it out.
That people here keep picturing spamming " libyans" without historical context is trolling.
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^ If they are native to Libya as in being born there though not necessarily originating there what's wrong with using the term Libyan? The elites of Mexico are Castilian Spanish many of whom Nordic looking but they are still Mexican even though they may not descend from the Aztecs.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ If they are native to Libya as in being born there though not necessarily originating there what's wrong with using the term Libyan? The elites of Mexico are Castilian Spanish many of whom Nordic looking but they are still Mexican even though they may not descend from the Aztecs.
Elite Castilian Spanish in Mexico make sure you know they are SPANISH as in the country and not Mexican/mestizaje 500 years after Cortez landed
The same for the Meshwesh who were claiming to be descended from Trojans 600 years after the war of the sea peoples in 1200 bc when Herodotus reported it in 450 BC
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The most important extra-African elements among the Hamites are the brachycephalic Berbers and the blonds. Both, as one would a priori expect, are found in the north. The brachycephals are, almost certainly, invaders, since they form but a small group near the northern seaboard of the dolichocephalic African continent. The blonds are much more numerous, but are even more clearly of extra-African origin. Various theories have been advanced to account for the presence of this xanthochroid element in Africa, it even having been asserted that the blonds owed their origin to the Vandals. This is, however, not only in itself incredible, owing to the number and distribution of the xanthochroids in the fastnesses of Morocco, but is even flatly contradicted by the ancient evidence. Whatever may be the true significance of the word Tehenu, which some would have to mean "fair" or "bright " (scil. "people"), evidence of a more satisfactory nature is to be found in the Egyptian monuments. For whereas the Libyan in earlier Egyptian art is regularly a brun, later representations exist showing Libyans not only blond, but even with red hair and blue eyes." Classical notices of blond Africans also exist; and though they are few, they are explicit. The Greek colonists of Cyrene are mentioned by Callimachus as dancing with the blond Libyan women.[/i]
Thanks for the link to that book, especially since I had questions on how ancient Libyans related to western Amazigh the other day. Skimming through the chapter on dress and ornamentation, it's funny how these European-admixed Libyans still shared some customs with darker-skinned African groups in addition to speaking African languages. They're almost the Bronze Age equivalent of Vanilla Ice or Iggy Azalea.
This is how colonizers behave as more recent history shows us. For instance, the sea peoples of the British Isles and their invasion of North America.
Many British men went native, for various reasons. Trade, women, or maybe they just liked the new culture more. More exposure more admiration and adaption to the new environment.
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quote: Apparently, according to another study, the European gene responsible for blue eyes arose from a single ancestor between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago around the Black Sea, during the expansion of the human population in Europe and the arrival of agriculture from the Middle East. Such date is rather recent when compared to the genetic results suggesting the Temahuq speakers (the Berbers) breaking up from the Afro-Asiatic group between 21,000 and 32,000 years ago
Generally speaking the Libyans were in the Old Kingdom shown "red brown", with a long, lock-like beard, very similar to the beard of Osiris, which the pharaohs also adopted as a sign of royalty. However, the Tehenu were portrayed as tall, dark skinned (or bronze-skinned, as I noted above), with long black hair, short pointed beards, slender faces and thick lips ; most of which needless to say are features characteristic of African populations - the ancestors of humanity.
In ancient times men wore single hair locks on one side of the head, and in some cases the side-lock was worn on both sides of the head at once. Libyan chiefs however were found wearing the double side-lock (as seen on two chiefs in a relief at Karnak). Libyan captives often appear as wearing only one side-lock, either on the left or on the right side of the head. Incidentally, writes Oric Bates, the hieroglyph for the "west" iment (the Libyan land) is seemingly a cap with a plume, and two pendants of unequal length which appear to be side-locks; which he compared to modern Berber Imushagh ('Berber Tuareg') women, who sometimes braid their hair in two side-locks on the right and left of the head.
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Mass Migration from Europe to the levant and africa during the bronze age collapse discussed in new video. Colonizers! The Bronze age collapse should be called The Destruction of Black civilization.
Ancient Apocalypse - The Sea People: Catalysts of Bronze Age Collapse | Full Documentary
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quote:This study showed that the maternal genetic lineage of TAF population is composed of North African and Eurasian haplogroups.
This study showed also that the maternal genetic lineage of TAF population is composed of North African haplogroup (U6) and Eurasian haplogroups (H, U, R0).
The seven individuals of AFA showed five different haplotypes, classified into four haplogroups. Three specimens (AF2, AF13, and AF XXV) presented the same sequence of the reference: rCRS and could belong to H or U haplogroup. Two individuals (AF3 and AF7) were classified as haplogroup J and J1c3f. One individual (AF19) was classified as Haplogroup T2b. The last individual (AF22B) carrying the substitution 16126C could be classified as haplogroup JT or H14b1. Interestingly among the seven samples tested, no Sub-Saharan haplogroups (L0–L7) were identified.
The absence of haplotype belonging to Sub-Saharan haplogroups (L0–L7) would suggest that our sample of Iberomaurusians is not originating from Sub-Saharan region. These results confirm dental, craniofacial, post-cranial comparative studies, and industry investigations which found divergence between Iberomarusian skeletons and their contemporaneous Nubians (Camps 1974; Ferembach 1985; Bermudez de Castro 1991; Irish 2000).
According to our results, the presence of Eurasian haplogroups (JT, J, T, H, R0a1, U) in AFA and in TAF individuals suggests that these lineages were present in North Africa at least 21,000 YBP confirming the estimated coalescence time for these haplogroups (Brandst€atter et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al 2009; Ottoni et al., 2010; Pala et al. 2012; Zheng et al. 2012).
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Mass Migration from Europe to the levant and africa during the bronze age collapse discussed in new video. Colonizers! The Bronze age collapse should be called The Destruction of Black civilization.
Ancient Apocalypse - The Sea People: Catalysts of Bronze Age Collapse | Full Documentary
This documentary is focused mainly on the destruction of Ugarit. You believe these people were Africans or resembling Africans?
Also, the documentary describes destruction not colonization and includes the possibility by invasion, drought, earthquake, possibly a combination of factors
Ugarit was an ancient port city in northern Syria, in the outskirts of modern Latakia, discovered by accident in 1928 with the Ugaritic texts. Its ruins are often called Ras Shamra[note after the headland where they lie.
Ugarit had close connections to the Hittite Empire, sent tribute to Egypt at times, and maintained trade and diplomatic connections with Cyprus (then called Alashiya), documented in the archives recovered from the site and corroborated by Mycenaean and Cypriot pottery found there. The polity was at its height from c. 1450 BC until its destruction in c. 1185 BC;[5] this destruction was possibly caused by the purported Sea Peoples, or an internal struggle. The kingdom would be one of the many dismantled during the Bronze Age Collapse
History Ras Shamra lies on the Mediterranean coast, some 11 kilometres (7 mi) north of Latakia, near modern Burj al-Qasab.
Origins and the second millennium
A tomb in the Royal palace's courtyard Neolithic Ugarit was important enough to be fortified with a wall early on, perhaps by 6000 BC, though the site is thought to have been inhabited earlier. Ugarit was important perhaps because it was both a port and at the entrance of the inland trade route to the Euphrates and Tigris lands.[citation needed] The city reached its heyday between 1800 and 1200 BC, when it ruled a trade-based coastal kingdom, trading with Egypt, Cyprus, the Aegean, Syria, the Hittites, and much of the eastern Mediterranean.[6]
Baal God, bronze and gold statuette from Ugarit (Ras Shamra), Syria
in your doc Sea People or Philistines are suggested as contributing to the destruction of the Bronze Age
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quote: Apparently, according to another study, the European gene responsible for blue eyes arose from a single ancestor between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago around the Black Sea, during the expansion of the human population in Europe and the arrival of agriculture from the Middle East. Such date is rather recent when compared to the genetic results suggesting the Temahuq speakers (the Berbers) breaking up from the Afro-Asiatic group between 21,000 and 32,000 years ago
Generally speaking the Libyans were in the Old Kingdom shown "red brown", with a long, lock-like beard, very similar to the beard of Osiris, which the pharaohs also adopted as a sign of royalty. However, the Tehenu were portrayed as tall, dark skinned (or bronze-skinned, as I noted above), with long black hair, short pointed beards, slender faces and thick lips ; most of which needless to say are features characteristic of African populations - the ancestors of humanity.
In ancient times men wore single hair locks on one side of the head, and in some cases the side-lock was worn on both sides of the head at once. Libyan chiefs however were found wearing the double side-lock (as seen on two chiefs in a relief at Karnak). Libyan captives often appear as wearing only one side-lock, either on the left or on the right side of the head. Incidentally, writes Oric Bates, the hieroglyph for the "west" iment (the Libyan land) is seemingly a cap with a plume, and two pendants of unequal length which appear to be side-locks; which he compared to modern Berber Imushagh ('Berber Tuareg') women, who sometimes braid their hair in two side-locks on the right and left of the head.
So the descendants of the Tehenu are Fula?
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
quote: the Tehenu were portrayed as tall, dark skinned (or bronze-skinned, as I noted above), with long black hair, short pointed beards, slender faces and thick lips
where are the beards at?
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: which he compared to modern Berber Imushagh ('Berber Tuareg') women, who sometimes braid their hair in two side-locks on the right and left of the head.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Mass Migration from Europe to the levant and africa during the bronze age collapse discussed in new video. Colonizers! The Bronze age collapse should be called The Destruction of Black civilization.
Ancient Apocalypse - The Sea People: Catalysts of Bronze Age Collapse | Full Documentary
quote: Libyan Origins: That the Meshwesh were of Libyan origin is explicitly stated in a genealogy contained on the stela of Pasenhor (dated to the reign of Shoshenq V), where the great chiefs of the Meshwesh (including the kings of the 22nd Dynasty) are stated to be the descendants of "Buyuwawa the Libyan." The Libyo-Berber origin of the Meshwesh is also indicated in their personal names (such as Osorkon, Takelot, Nimlot, Shoshenq, etc.) and a handful of non-Egyptian titles used by these people that are related to the Berber languages. After the Egyptians, the Greeks, Romans, and Byzantines mentioned various other tribes in Libya. Later tribal names differ from the Egyptian ones but, probably, some tribes were named in the Egyptian sources and the later ones, as well. The Meshwesh tribe represents this assumption. Some scholars argue it would be the same tribe called Mazyes by Hecataeus of Miletus and Maxyes by Herodotus, while the tribe was called Mazices and Mazax in Latin sources.
I keep forgetting that the 22nd Dynasty was ethnically Meshwesh, but from the surviving portraits they did not fit the 'white' type of Libyan.
quote:The Meshwesh are known from ancient Egyptian texts as early as the 18th Dynasty, where they are mentioned as a source of cattle provided to king Amenhotep III's palace at Malkata. This indicates there may have been some trade relations between the Meshwesh and the Egyptians at the time. At the very least, it can be said that the Egyptians were familiar with the Meshwesh. For the remainder of the 18th Dynasty, information about Meshwesh or Libyans in general is sketchy. There are, however, representations of Libyans (perhaps Meshwesh) from the reign of Akhenaten, including a remarkable papyrus depicting a group of Libyans slaying an Egyptian. However, the papyrus is fragmentary, so it is not known what the historical context was. The Meshwesh or Ma were nomad hunter pastoralists, living off their goats, camels and other livestock while hunting and gathering at the same time. Milk, meat, hides and wool were gathered from their livestock for food, tents and clothing.
The first ancient Egyptian sources described the Meshwesh men with tattoos and long hair with longer side locks in the front, while centuries later they appear with shorter hair of Egyptian influence but braided and beaded, neatly parted in both sides from their temples and decorated with one or two feathers attached to leather bands around the crown of the head. They still used the same robes as before, a thin mantle of antelope hide, dyed and printed, crossing one of their shoulders and coming down until mid calf length to make an open robe over a loincloth with an adorned phallus sheath, being the only exception of the new addition of a kilt above the knees and an animal tail in the Egyptian manner of king Narmer and the phallus adornment over it. Men wore facial hair trimmed except at their chin and the older men kept their longer chin tufts braided. Women wore the same robes as men, plaited, decorated hair and both genders wore heavy jewelry. Later images showed them to have accepted and adapted some Greek or Macedonian tunics. Weapons included bows and arrows, hatchets, spears and daggers.
The style of dress is very African but the description fits with these figures as well.
Posts: 26516 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Nigerian Fula's DNA ancestry test... 1% Greece & Italy is a trace region that matches the SOURCE of bronze age collapse invasions.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2731 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
Lioness, I am not shocked that you could watch that excellent historical documentary about the sea peoples and the bronze age collapse and come away with such INANE comments.
I truly believe that English is not your first language and AND! Your comprehension is left wanting.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2731 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2731 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
^ The Fulani have some North African genetic influence and probably some cultural influence as well. But I wouldn't claim them as representing the ancient Libyans if that's what you're trying to do. Most of their ancestry is still West Africa IIRC and their native language is Niger-Congo rather than Libyco-Berber as the Libyans' language appears to have been. They're not quite the same ethnic group.
posted
Fulani ancestry was discussed here. They are part West African and part Central Saharan.
Posts: 26516 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Apparently, according to another study, the European gene responsible for blue eyes arose from a single ancestor between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago around the Black Sea, during the expansion of the human population in Europe and the arrival of agriculture from the Middle East. Such date is rather recent when compared to the genetic results suggesting the Temahuq speakers (the Berbers) breaking up from the Afro-Asiatic group between 21,000 and 32,000 years ago
Generally speaking the Libyans were in the Old Kingdom shown "red brown", with a long, lock-like beard, very similar to the beard of Osiris, which the pharaohs also adopted as a sign of royalty. However, the Tehenu were portrayed as tall, dark skinned (or bronze-skinned, as I noted above), with long black hair, short pointed beards, slender faces and thick lips ; most of which needless to say are features characteristic of African populations - the ancestors of humanity.
In ancient times men wore single hair locks on one side of the head, and in some cases the side-lock was worn on both sides of the head at once. Libyan chiefs however were found wearing the double side-lock (as seen on two chiefs in a relief at Karnak). Libyan captives often appear as wearing only one side-lock, either on the left or on the right side of the head. Incidentally, writes Oric Bates, the hieroglyph for the "west" iment (the Libyan land) is seemingly a cap with a plume, and two pendants of unequal length which appear to be side-locks; which he compared to modern Berber Imushagh ('Berber Tuareg') women, who sometimes braid their hair in two side-locks on the right and left of the head.
quote:
Fula man with beard
Random pictures spams and saying someone has big lips or a beard is of completely no significance and prove nothing. Argue for Tobuou continuation in Libya from ancient times, even though they're native to and have been in Libya from ancient times? Of course not. Argue for Fulani continuation in Libya from ancient times, yet can't name one Fulani tribe native to or that dispersed from Libya? Of course, we know why.....
quote:Originally posted by Brandon Pilcher: ^ The Fulani have some North African genetic influence and probably some cultural influence as well. But I wouldn't claim them as representing the ancient Libyans if that's what you're trying to do. Most of their ancestry is still West Africa IIRC and their native language is Niger-Congo rather than Libyco-Berber as the Libyans' language appears to have been. They're not quite the same ethnic group.
quote:Originally posted by Brandon Pilcher: I agree that the Fulanis are still mainly West Africans.
Although the Fulanis speak a Niger-Congo language, it likely doesn't represent their original tongue and no they don't cluster with most West Africans, but rather with Chadic groups (who are largely of Nilo-Saharan extraction) and Nilo-Saharan groups. The sedentary fulani groups (Toucouleurs, Rimmaaybe etc) are more similair to a average west african, with them being less eurasian, but if you're of the belief that the Ikelan groups aren't real Tuaregs, equally these groups aren't real Fulanis
Posts: 206 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023
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posted
^^ no one should confuse the modern country of Libya with the ancient libya mentioned by the greeks.
From Dana's site Afro-Asiatica blogspot
From my own study I agree with everything she says here
quote: The origins of the Fulani have stirred some lasting controversy over the last several decades due to their physical appearance or phenotype, Arabic records concerning their origins, the presence of Zebu cattle thought to be native to India, certain inconsistencies with regard to their phenotype and their current linguistic affinities which were thought to not match their phenotype. Due to European colonialist ideas about indigenous African origins and especially North African “racial” origins, the notion has gradually evolved – as it has with the Tuareg and other dark-skinned Africans once prevalent in North Africa - that their ethnic roots were “enigmatic” or “unknown”. Yet, in fact, the earliest Fulani were one of the few peoples for whom there is an abundance of evidence for origins in the Sahara oases and North Africa since the Neolithic. The evidence is both archeological and anthropological and tends to show that original Fulani population belonged to a group of neolithic pastoralists in the central and northern Sahara who were spread to Kharga, Kerma and possibly further east in Africa in later times. They appear to have been among the first people to be known to ancient Egyptians as under the names Tjehenu or Temehou. Their presence in stone age north Africa probably led to contact with other groups as far back as the late stone age which has led to their current so–called non-African features such as notably long and less frizzly hair than other west African tribes and perhaps the introduction of a curvature to their innately narrow long noses.
Again, Meshwesh & Libu are NEW libyan groups encounterd by the middle kingdom Egyptians
quote:Egyptian contacts with ‘new’ Libyan groups
Low-intensity contact between Egyptians and Tjemehu/Tjehenu typifies EgyptoLibyan relations from the beginning of the dynastic period to the late eighteenth Dynasty. A second phase may be said to have begun at the end of that period, and is characterized by the attempts of Libyan groups to migrate in large numbers into Egypt itself. This is best attested by the records of the great Libyan war in year 5 of Merenptah, most famously on the so-called 'Israel Stela' and on a companion text at Kamak, and by the textual and pictorial accounts of two major Libyan wars in years 5 and 11 of Ramesses III. In both these reigns 'new' Libyan groups, especially the Meshwesh and Libu, take the lead, although accompanied by other 'older' Libyan groups and smaller new ones of whom little is heard before or after. It is likely that the Meshwesh and Libu were groups which possessed more substantial settlements than the Tjemehu/Tjehenu, probably, at least in part, within Cyrenaica (O'Connor 1990), although this location for the Meshwesh/Libu is far from universally accepted (Spalinger 1979).
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2731 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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