quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Again, the arrival of light skin in North Africa predates the arrival of Europeans. There have likely always been a Northern "San like" population in Northern Africa that was relatively lighter than those in other areas.
That's not necessarily impossible, since skin color is a polygenic trait and we may not have identified all mutations for lighter skin. However, I don't think there's evidence for such mutations in pre-Neolithic North African aDNA either. So the prevalence of any skin-lightening alleles in North Africa prior to late Neolithic and later admixture with Europeans and West Asians will have to remain speculative for the time being.
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Lioness has spent over a decade on this forum trying to imply that white skin, red/blone hair and blue eyes were indigenous to North Africa and Ancient Egypt. Implying this by mostly spamming pictures of blonde mummies, blue eyed Egyptian statues, and Egyptian depictions of blonde or white european like libyans.
Now DNA science has disproved this, blonde hair and blue eyes is a late development in Europe subject to selective sweep in the last 5000k years. and truth be told it was the pre historic europeans who where dark skinned lol
And yet still Lioness is allowed to troll with pics of the supposed blonde north africans and say stupid crap like it's not about black or white it's about " RED "
There are Red/brown skinned Africans all over the continent and the San are TAN! So ancient depictions of Red/brown skinned Africans do not mean they were not Indigenous " black " Africans
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One can wonder when very light people first can be seen in North Africa, like this girl:
Blonde haired Libyans are mentioned from more than 2000 years back
The 3rd century BC cyrenaican poet Callimachus in his Hymns to Apollo talked about greek men dancing with yellow haired libyan women :
quote:Greatly, indeed, did Phoebus rejoice as the belted warriors of Enyo danced with the yellow-haired Libyan women , when the appointed season of the Carnean feast came round. But not yet could the Dorians approach the fountains of Cyre,28 but dwelt in Azilis29 thick with wooded dells.
In the Periplous of the Pseudo-Scylax (4th century BC), he mentions blonde haired libyans known as the Gyzantes :
quote:The Gyzantes Libyans live around it, a nation, with a city to the west. For these Gyzantes Libyans are said to be all blond and handsome. And this country is the best and most fertile, with huge flocks, and the richest
Blondes came to North Africa during the Bronze age collapse
Blondes came to North America during the 14th Century ad.. now look how prevalent blonde and blue eye is in North America now 2024
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: There have likely always been a Northern "San like" population in Northern Africa
no evidence
This has been a popular theory held in anthropology for a long while. But if by San-like you mean having the light complexion caused by SLC24A5 mutation, so far the earliest remains tested (epipaleolithic) in the Maghreb lack it and had dark skin. And thus far all the evidence for SLC24A5 in North Africa is associated with Eurasian population influence.
As to what Yatunde pointed out about Nok Culture, early West African cultures have strong ties to the Central Sahara.
I wasn't speaking SAN related DNA as opposed to complexion. We know all Africans don't have the same skin color and that variation is not due to Eurasian mixture.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: That's not necessarily impossible, since skin color is a polygenic trait and we may not have identified all mutations for lighter skin. However, I don't think there's evidence for such mutations in pre-Neolithic North African aDNA either. So the prevalence of any skin-lightening alleles in North Africa prior to late Neolithic and later admixture with Europeans and West Asians will have to remain speculative for the time being.
I posted this on page 1 of this thread yet people still keep posting misinformation:
quote: As Colin Barras at New Scientist reports, each of these sites had genetic variants associated with paler skin and ones associated with darker skin. Seven genetic variants associated with lighter skin developed at least 270,000 years ago and four more than 900,000 years ago. Considering our species, Homo sapiens, did not evolve until around 200,00 to 300,000 years ago, the discovery suggests that the genes responsible for lighter skin tones were present into the genetic material of our hominin ancestors—hundreds of thousands of years before the first humans walked the Earth.
The study suggests that genes of light and dark skin are more fluid than we once thought. Three of the genes associated with the darkest skin are likely to have evolved from genes for lighter skin tones, Barras reports, meaning that people with the darkest skin tones, like herdsmen who live in the Sahara, may have developed that deep pigmentation in the evolutionarily recent past.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: 3rd & 4th century BC
The Bronze age collapse happened 1100 BC
Blondes came to North Africa during the Bronze age collapse
Blondes came to North America during the 14th Century ad.. now look how prevalent blonde and blue eye is in North America now 2024
Remember though that before 1492 America was more or less isolated from the so called Old World, even if some Norse people actually visited, and built a farm on Newfoundland already in the 11th century AD.
North Africa was not as isolated from Europe. So it can be hard to know exactly when the first blonde person from Europe came to set his/her foot on African soil.
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: 3rd & 4th century BC
The Bronze age collapse happened 1100 BC
Blondes came to North Africa during the Bronze age collapse
Blondes came to North America during the 14th Century ad.. now look how prevalent blonde and blue eye is in North America now 2024
Remember though that before 1492 America was more or less isolated from the so called Old World, even if some Norse people actually visited, and built a farm on Newfoundland already in the 11th century AD.
North Africa was not as isolated from Europe. So it can be hard to know exactly when the first blonde person from Europe came to set his/her foot on African soil.
I don't want to get into a extended discussion of blondes and blondism, because they are the exception and not the rule. Especially, when the discussion is really a back door way of establishing that white Europeans established Egyptian culture or a psuedo hamitic theory.
Again you miss the point about the 14th century sea people/european invasions and colonization of North America. And you are missing the point about how because whites are now present in North America and dominant on this continent does not make said white people indigenous
THE SAME GOES FOR ANCIENT NORTH AFRICA
Of course if you are caught in climate change and always hungry as it seems the Europeans in the eastern Mediterranean where the option is to move and colonize.
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Yes blonde hair is probably not so old in North Africa (even if it at least 8000 years or older in Northern Europe).
When it comes to lighter skin it seems the alleles for it existed already in the late Neolithic Morocco (c 3000 BC)
quote:IAM (Early Neolithic) people did not possess any of the European SNPs associated with light pigmentation, and most likely had dark skin and eyes. IAM samples contain ancestral alleles for pigmentation-associated variants present in SLC24A5 (rs1426654), SLC45A2 (rs16891982), and OCA2 (rs1800401 and 12913832) genes. On the other hand, KEB (Late Neolithic) individuals exhibit some European-derived alleles that predispose individuals to lighter skin and eye color, including those on genes SLC24A5 (rs1426654) and OCA2 (rs1800401).
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: One can wonder when very light people first can be seen in North Africa, like this girl:
Blonde haired Libyans are mentioned from more than 2000 years back
The 3rd century BC cyrenaican poet Callimachus in his Hymns to Apollo talked about greek men dancing with yellow haired libyan women :
quote:Greatly, indeed, did Phoebus rejoice as the belted warriors of Enyo danced with the yellow-haired Libyan women , when the appointed season of the Carnean feast came round. But not yet could the Dorians approach the fountains of Cyre,28 but dwelt in Azilis29 thick with wooded dells.
In the Periplous of the Pseudo-Scylax (4th century BC), he mentions blonde haired libyans known as the Gyzantes :
quote:The Gyzantes Libyans live around it, a nation, with a city to the west. For these Gyzantes Libyans are said to be all blond and handsome. And this country is the best and most fertile, with huge flocks, and the richest
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Lioness has spent over a decade on this forum trying to imply that white skin, red/blone hair and blue eyes were indigenous to North Africa and Ancient Egypt. Implying this by mostly spamming pictures of blonde mummies, blue eyed Egyptian statues, and Egyptian depictions of blonde or white european like libyans.
Now DNA science has disproved this, blonde hair and blue eyes is a late development in Europe subject to selective sweep in the last 5000k years. and truth be told it was the pre historic europeans who where dark skinned lol
stop the BS. Other people, since page 1 people have mentioned blonds, me not once
All you are doing is to try to pretend I did to try to discredit with fakery
Any genuine critique of me will need to include a quote of me. The thread title is "When did North Africans acquire light skin color?"
I don't care about that
Nevertheless blue eyes in the region is kind of interesting. Sometimes dark skinned Africans have them also dark skinned Solomon Islanders (as well as kids with 5-10% blond hair) and I noticed them on a brown skinned Libyan of the 18th dynasty and then Brandon showed a 12th dynasty image from Beni Hasan which seems to be Libyan and show a person with green or blue eyes.
This is around 15Kya, North Africa Haplogroups maternal haplogroups H, U, R0, JT, J, T,
These are considered originating outside of Africa That may have implications for physical appearance assuming that's important
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
Blondes came to North Africa during the Bronze age collapse
You're just making that up it may or may might be true. And if it is there could have been earlier periods also
The Late Bronze Age collapse was a time of widespread societal collapse during the 12th century BC, between c. 1200 and 1150
The Vandal Kingdom or Kingdom of the Vandals and Alans was a confederation of Vandals and Alans, which is one of the barbarian kingdoms established under Gaiseric, a Vandal warrior probably born near Lake Balaton (present-day Hungary), though this is uncertain. He became king of the Vandals in Spain and the confederation ruled in North Africa and the Mediterranean from 435 to 534 AD.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
Now DNA science has disproved this, blonde hair and blue eyes is a late development in Europe subject to selective sweep in the last 5000k years. and truth be told it was the pre historic europeans who where dark skinned lol
Now DNA science has disproved this, blonde hair and blue eyes is a late development in Europe subject to selective sweep in the last 5000k years. and truth be told it was the pre historic europeans who where dark skinned lol
Bronze Age collapse 1,150 + now, 2024 = about 3,000 year ago If the selective sweep was 5000k and Eurasian DNA in North Africa goes back at a least to 15K there could have been some blonds and blue eyed within that going back to the 5,000 year point but it is unknown But this is assuming European genetics. The blue eyes and blond hair in the Solomon Islands are are caused by a different gene than the one that makes it occur in Europeans However Europe is much closer to Africa
Ok, lets say about 1960 BC + now, 2024 = about 4,000 years ago
Doug, Yatunde thinks these are Europeans what do you think?
I'm not sure about it. This stuff is basically guessing since all we know about the Libyans depicted in Egyptian art is only from their art and a little bit of Egyptian writing
At minimum some of the Iberomaurusian are dated 10K others, 12-15K or perhaps even earlier. That data above if from Rym Kefi, they had samples from 23 Taforalt and 8 Afalou, whereas Loosdrecht study was only 7, all were U6 except one was M1 but his article had the Y-DNA which was E1b1b1a1 (M-78) Iberomaurusians may or may not have been dark, could have been caramels or anything but skin color ain't everything, it's just skin deep (not even to the deeper layers)
Some San here, Southern Africa Some are mixed with bantus which might make some darker
But many are somewhat light like this, however with features unlike the 18th dynasty representations of Libyans or Europeans
Yatunde, how long do you think many of these San people have been light-ish like this? I don't think it's due to Eurasian admixture, their features and hair don't look like it. Some have mixed with Europeans in recent times but probably less so with people like this apparently still living in the bushlands
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looked for the original in that Bates illustration but wasn't able to find it
info ____________________________________________
At Beit el-Wali, a temple begun by Ramesses close to the end of the reign of his father, and certainly sculpted during the brief coregency of Sethos and himself, least three, if not four, separate wars are recorded.w In particular, the young Ramesses had commissioned on the walls of that temple war-scenes depicting himself in Nubia, Asia, against a Libyan, and against the Shasu, all of which link up rather well with the corresponding scenes on the south wall at Abu Simbel (see fig. 2)...
To the west of the Asiatic scene is another smiting-relief. This time it is the Libyans who are the enemy.w Ramesses II is carved trampling upon one Libyan, ready for the coup de graceagainst a second. The texts surrounding the scene refer to Asiatics as well as Libyan enemies (!JJswt nw mhty, Hirt», "mn», and Rlnw), Nubians, and the Shasu. The text states that Ramesses transported the Nubians to the north and the Asiatics to the south, as well as the Shasu to the west and the Libyans to the hilltops (tst), probably indicating the common practice of the New Kingdom Pharaohs of moving captives to various sites for corvee labour or for military service...
. The Libyan-warscene on the south wall of the columned hall at Abu Simbel corresponds to the same event recorded in scene 14 at Beit el-Wali and the Libyan-war register of Sethos I at Karnak.
Scene 14 at Beit el-Wali records a Libyan war in which Ramesses places himself as the main participant. Again, at Karnak Sethos records a Libyan war (the middle register of the outer wall of the hypostyle court) in which Ramesses later had himself (plus name and titles) inserted." Therefore, the same reasoning employed with respect to the Shasu-warfare can be employed for the Libyan campaign, namely, the Karnak warscenes of Sethos can be associated with war-reliefs of Ramesses.
Spalinger, A. J. (1980). Historical Observations on the Military Reliefs of Abu Simbel and Other Ramesside Temples in Nubia. The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, 66(1), 83–99. doi:10.1177/030751338006600110
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^ You cited the genetic samples from Taforalt but as Brandon pointed out the autosomal results showed that Taforalt and Early Neolithic Maghrebis (at least from the samples tested) had dark skin and no SCL4A mutation for light skin. The latter was only found in Late Neolithic samples.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ You cited the genetic samples from Taforalt but as Brandon pointed out the autosomal results showed that Taforalt and Early Neolithic Maghrebis (at least from the samples tested) had dark skin and no SCL4A mutation for light skin. The latter was only found in Late Neolithic samples.
a Berber man in Ouanskra, a Berber village in the High Atlas Mountains, Morocco
Who knows what their deep ancestry is
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^ Yes, we've seen those examples before. Here is more: Rif ArchivesPosts: 26515 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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@lioness keeps posting this picture of a libyan because LIONESS believes this is a picture of a Caucasian north african and and has an apriori ASSumption that this person is a white north african. And this one picture wipes out all the other evidence of BLack African libyans. It's trolling and its the same exact thing of people who post negroid looking bhuddist statues or negroid olmec statues and say they must have been black africans.
But these are faulty ASSumptions. First, how do we know this person is not a black african person? Or even how do we know this person is not a European migrant who has adopted Libyan dress? Especially since his features are Atypical of all the other representations of Libyans from the old to middle kingdom.
Here is a Fulani in Northern Nigeria... he has the small nose, no prothaganism and requisite small pointy beard just like the " Libyan " on Tut's stool.
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You know I have seen this picture before but I have never really really looked at it.
But the texture of the beber hair on the top is 4c
quote:4C hair is a type of hair that is naturally curly, tightly coiled, and high in density. 4C hair is the coarsest and tightest curl type, with coils that are tightly packed and have a "Z" pattern. 4C hair is also prone to shrinkage and breakag
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^ I don't know how you came to the conclusion that the man in the photo has type 4c hair, when most of his head is shaved and what hair remains doesn't look like it.
In fact the typical hair texture of most Berbers including dark skinned or black types is loose curls to wavy hair as example below:
Tuareg boy
Ironically kinky hair type hair occurs more in modern Egyptians than in Amazigh (Berbers).
"The place which was called El Gazie, ( 2 ) was a low sandy beach, having no trees in sight, nor any verdure. There was no appear-ance of mountain or hill ; nor (excepting only the rock on which the ship was wrecked) any thing but sand as far as the eve could reach. The Moors [of Mauritania] were straight haired, but quite black; their dress consisted of little more than a rug or a skin round their waist, their upper parts and from their knees downwards, being wholly naked."--Robert Adams (African American explorer in 1810)
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I don't know how you came to the conclusion that the man in the photo has type 4c hair, when most of his head is shaved and what hair remains doesn't look like it.
In fact the typical hair texture of most Berbers including dark skinned or black types is loose curls to wavy hair as example below:
Tuareg boy
Ironically kinky hair type hair occurs more in modern Egyptians than in Amazigh (Berbers).
"The place which was called El Gazie, ( 2 ) was a low sandy beach, having no trees in sight, nor any verdure. There was no appear-ance of mountain or hill ; nor (excepting only the rock on which the ship was wrecked) any thing but sand as far as the eve could reach. The Moors [of Mauritania] were straight haired, but quite black; their dress consisted of little more than a rug or a skin round their waist, their upper parts and from their knees downwards, being wholly naked."--Robert Adams (African American explorer in 1810)
as with any admixed population that has black african ancestry, textures can vary even with siblings of the same parents.
It is EASY to see his texture if you look at it closely
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2731 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I don't know how you came to the conclusion that the man in the photo has type 4c hair, when most of his head is shaved and what hair remains doesn't look like it.
In fact the typical hair texture of most Berbers including dark skinned or black types is loose curls to wavy hair as example below:
Tuareg boy
Ironically kinky hair type hair occurs more in modern Egyptians than in Amazigh (Berbers).
"The place which was called El Gazie, ( 2 ) was a low sandy beach, having no trees in sight, nor any verdure. There was no appear-ance of mountain or hill ; nor (excepting only the rock on which the ship was wrecked) any thing but sand as far as the eve could reach. The Moors [of Mauritania] were straight haired, but quite black; their dress consisted of little more than a rug or a skin round their waist, their upper parts and from their knees downwards, being wholly naked."--Robert Adams (African American explorer in 1810)
as with any admixed population that has black african ancestry, textures can vary even with siblings of the same parents.
It is EASY to see his texture if you look at it closely
I will also have you know that mixed hair types or loose curl hair types can change texture with age so a young childs hair can be straight but as puberty hits it can change to different textures
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: When did North Africans acquire light skin color?
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: I will still consider Herodotus claim that the Meshwesh were descendants of the trojans
Yatunde show us an artifact please, depicting a Meshwesh
you do it
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quote:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
quote:Ramesses III calls them “foreign countries (who) made a conspiracy in their isles ” and also “northern countries who were in their isles” or even “the countries who came from their land in the isles in the midst of the sea” Hence the name coined for them, Sea Peoples which aptly describes their surroundings.Another source, the Papyrus Harris places the Danuna “in their isles” and the Shardana as well as the Washosh “of the sea”.
quote:The Meshwesh tribe , another supposed Sea People group, was allied with the Libyans and was according to Drews “often identified with the area around Tunis, [NorthAfrica] where Herodotus locates people whom he calls Maxyes”.167nLibyans are often talked of as invading the Egyptian Delta. There were many invasions of Egypt one in 1220 BC, Merneptah’s reign, known as the Libyan war; and again in 1189BC, and again in 1183BC, both in Ramesses III’s reign.168 They originally were from the central Balkans and migrated at some point in the past to become Libyans in Africa, flanking Egypt’s western borderWhen invading Egypt the whole family came with the warriors, along with their possession, with an intention to settle. This was no ordinary war.
quote:A conglomeration of different tribal names has been mentioned in the previous chapter. Egyptian Pharaoh Amenophis III names the Lukka, Sharden, Danuna, and Meshwesh . Pharaoh Ramesses II talks of the Lukka, Sharden, Quarqisha, and the Labu . Pharaoh Merenptah, who inscribed much about his victory over the Sea Peoples,lists them as Lukka, Sharden, Eqwesh, Teresh, Shekelesh, Labu and Meshwesh .
Pharaoh Ramesses III, in his fifth reigning year, inscribes the following tribes: Qayqisha, Labu, Meshwesh , Asbata, Shayu, Hasa, and Baqan.81 Pharaoh Ramesses III, again in his eighth reigning year, battles these Sea Peoples and names them: Shekelesh, Weshesh, Danyen, Tjakker, and Peleset.82 These are all Egyptian sources naming foreign enemies from the north. We have been referring to them as simply the Sea Peoples.
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They originally were from the central Balkans and migrated at some point in the past to become Libyans in Africa, flanking Egypt’s western border When invading Egypt the whole family came with the warriors, along with their possession, with an intention to settle. This was no ordinary war.
During this time “the foreign invaders included women and children in carts, and there can be no doubt that what we see was not just a military force but a population on the move”.4 This population was seeking food, wealth, trade and sustainability. They found all of it in Egypt and the Levant.
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: They originally were from the central Balkans and migrated at some point in the past to become Libyans in Africa, flanking Egypt’s western border When invading Egypt the whole family came with the warriors, along with their possession, with an intention to settle. This was no ordinary war.
During this time “the foreign invaders included women and children in carts, and there can be no doubt that what we see was not just a military force but a population on the move”.4 This population was seeking food, wealth, trade and sustainability. They found all of it in Egypt and the Levant.
Where are you quoting this? I think a population movement into the Libyan coast from the central Balkans during the Bronze Age would be worth looking into. I was under the impression that most of the European ancestry in the Maghrebi littoral would have come from Iberia, but maybe there were migrations from other regions along the northern Mediterranean?
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: They originally were from the central Balkans and migrated at some point in the past to become Libyans in Africa, flanking Egypt’s western border When invading Egypt the whole family came with the warriors, along with their possession, with an intention to settle. This was no ordinary war.
During this time “the foreign invaders included women and children in carts, and there can be no doubt that what we see was not just a military force but a population on the move”.4 This population was seeking food, wealth, trade and sustainability. They found all of it in Egypt and the Levant.
Where are you quoting this? I think a population movement into the Libyan coast from the central Balkans during the Bronze Age would be worth looking into. I was under the impression that most of the European ancestry in the Maghrebi littoral would have come from Iberia, but maybe there were migrations from other regions along the northern Mediterranean?
A really good paper, read it, she gave tons of research notes
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: They originally were from the central Balkans and migrated at some point in the past to become Libyans in Africa, flanking Egypt’s western border When invading Egypt the whole family came with the warriors, along with their possession, with an intention to settle. This was no ordinary war.
During this time “the foreign invaders included women and children in carts, and there can be no doubt that what we see was not just a military force but a population on the move”.4 This population was seeking food, wealth, trade and sustainability. They found all of it in Egypt and the Levant.
Where are you quoting this? I think a population movement into the Libyan coast from the central Balkans during the Bronze Age would be worth looking into. I was under the impression that most of the European ancestry in the Maghrebi littoral would have come from Iberia, but maybe there were migrations from other regions along the northern Mediterranean?
A really good paper, read it, she gave tons of research notes
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: They originally were from the central Balkans and migrated at some point in the past to become Libyans in Africa, flanking Egypt’s western border When invading Egypt the whole family came with the warriors, along with their possession, with an intention to settle. This was no ordinary war.
During this time “the foreign invaders included women and children in carts, and there can be no doubt that what we see was not just a military force but a population on the move”.4 This population was seeking food, wealth, trade and sustainability. They found all of it in Egypt and the Levant.
Where are you quoting this? I think a population movement into the Libyan coast from the central Balkans during the Bronze Age would be worth looking into. I was under the impression that most of the European ancestry in the Maghrebi littoral would have come from Iberia, but maybe there were migrations from other regions along the northern Mediterranean?
A really good paper, read it, she gave tons of research notes
RUTGERS UNIVERSITY THE SEA PEOPLE AND THEIR MIGRATION PRESENTING AN HONORS THESIS THAT HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO THE FACULTY OF THE RUTGERS UNIVERSITY HISTORY DEPARTMENT. BY SHELL PECZYNSKI NEW BRUNSWICK, NEW JERSEY MARCH 2009
The debate has settled somewhat and most scholars agree that the Sea Peoples hailed from Asia Minor, the Aegean, the Balkans, and Cyprus. [124]
There is today agreement that the Sea Peoples came from the Balkans and the Aegean world, with Cyprus as the last stop on the way before the invasion into the Levant. [1]
quote: [1] 1. Strange (1980) 157-65; Dothan (1982) 21-23; Dothan and Dothan (1992) 191-98; Stone (1995) 17-19; Killebrew (1998). _______________________________________
Strange, J. 1980. Caphtor/Keftiu (Leiden)
Dothan, T. 1982. The Philistines and their Material Culture (Jerusalem).
Dothan, T. & Dothan M. 1992. People of the Sea. The Search for the Philistines (New York).
Stone, B.J. 1995. “The Philistines and Acculturation: Cultural Change and Ethnic Continuity in the Iron Age,” Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research 298, 7-32.
Killebrew, A. 1998. “Ceramic Typology and Technology of the Late Bronze and Iron I. Assemblages from Tel Miqne-Ekron: The Transition from Canaanite to Philistine Culture,” in S. Gitin
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: They originally were from the central Balkans and migrated at some point in the past to become Libyans in Africa, flanking Egypt’s western border When invading Egypt the whole family came with the warriors, along with their possession, with an intention to settle. This was no ordinary war.
During this time “the foreign invaders included women and children in carts, and there can be no doubt that what we see was not just a military force but a population on the move”.4 This population was seeking food, wealth, trade and sustainability. They found all of it in Egypt and the Levant.
Initially blood typing and then later genetics has proven that white Berbers of the Maghreb are actually descended from populations from the Iberian Peninsula.
As far as the islands of the Sea Peoples, these too need not be the Aegean but could also be the Tyrrhenian or Balearic Islands.
We know the Sherden Sea People were most likely Sardinians since their attire including their horned headdresses match the Nuragic peoples of that area.
Hypothetical Sea Peoples Origins and Routes
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Nigerian Fula's DNA ancestry test... 1% Greece & Italy is a trace region that matches the SOURCE of bronze age collapse invasions.
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Fulani documented as far north as Siwa Oasis was my point. And the even the possibility of Hausas that far north is interesting.
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As far as their connections to ancient Greeks that was first exposed by Arnaiz Villena ages ago with his HLA genetic findings.
Seems that Arnaiz Villena´s findings have been criticized through the years. Wiki made a summary of the debate:
quote:Greeks and Sub-Saharans
Arnaiz-Villena et al. published five scientific articles, where, among other claims, they concluded that the Greek population originates from Sub-Saharan Africa and do not cluster with other Mediterraneans. The explanation they offered is that a large number of Sub-Saharans had migrated to Greece (but not to Crete) during Minoan times i.e. predating both Classical and Mycenaean Greece. Those conclusions were related to the "Black Athena" debate and became embroiled in disputes between Greek and ethnic Macedonian nationalists.
They cited Dörk et al. for having found a marker on Chromosome 7 that is common to Black Africans and, among Caucasoid populations, is found only in Greeks. Dörk et al. did find an African-type of cystic fibrosis mutation in Greeks, however this mutation was extremely rare; it was detected only in three Greek families. The explanation they offered is quite different from Arnaiz-Villena's. Dörk et al. state: "Historical contacts—for example, under Alexander the Great or during the ancient Minoan civilization—may provide an explanation for the common ancestry of disease mutations in these ethnically diverse populations."
Hajjej et al. claimed to have confirmed the genetic relatedness between Greeks and Sub-Saharans. However they used the same methodology (same gene markers) and same data samples like Arnaiz-Villena et al.
Other authors contradict Arnaiz-Villena's results. In The History and Geography of Human Genes (Princeton, 1994), Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza grouped Greeks with other European and Mediterranean populations based on 120 loci (view MDS plot). Then, Ayub et al. 2003 did the same thing using 182 loci (view dendrogram. Another study was conducted in 2004 at Skopje's University of Ss. Kiril and Metodij, using high-resolution typing of HLA-DRB1 according to Arnaiz-Villena's methodology. Contrary to Arnaiz-Villena's conclusion, no sub-Saharan admixture was detected in the Greek sample.
In a sample of 125 Greeks from Thessaloniki and Sarakatsani, 2 Asian-specific mtDNA sequences (M and D) were detected (1.6%). No sub-Saharan African genes were observed in this population, therefore, non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Greece is very low, as elsewhere in Europe. Additionally, in a sample of 366 Greeks from thirteen locations in continental Greece, Crete, Lesvos and Chios, a single African haplogroup A Y Chromosome was found (0.3%). This marks the only instance to date of sub-Saharan DNA being discovered in Greece. In another sample of 42 Greeks, one sequence of the Siberian Tat-C haplogroup turned up, while other studies with larger sample populations have failed to detect this paternal marker in the Greek gene pool and while its frequencies are actually much higher in Scandinavian and Slavic populations. Also, a paper has detected clades of haplogroups J and E3b that were likely not part of pre-historic migrations into Europe, but rather spread by later historical movements. Greeks possess none of the lineages denoting North African ancestry within the last 5000 years and have only 2% (3/148) of the marker J-M267, which may reflect more recent Middle Eastern admixture.
Jobling et al., in their genetics textbook "Human Evolutionary Genetics: Origins, Peoples & Disease", state that Arnaiz-Villena's conclusions on the Sub-Saharan origin of Greeks, is an example of arbitrary interpretation and that the methodology used is not appropriate for this kind of research. Karatzios C. et al., made a systematic review of genetics and historical documents, showing great flaws in Arnaiz-Villena's methodology and theory on the Greeks/Sub-Saharan genetic relationship.
Three respected geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, criticised Arnaiz-Villena's methodology. They stated that "Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics. The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups." Arnaiz-Villena et al. countered this criticism in a response, stating "single-locus studies, whether using HLA or other markers, are common in this field and are regularly published in the specialist literature".
A 2017 archaeogenetic study concluded concerning the origin of both the Minoans and Mycenaeans, that:
Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Myceneans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions.
The other proposed migrations that is mentioned and disproved by the paper pertain to Black Athena's positions that Arnaiz-Villena also tried to support with his work.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Initially blood typing and then later genetics has proven that white Berbers of the Maghreb are actually descended from populations from the Iberian Peninsula.
True, but I don't know if that disproves contributions to ancient Libyan ancestry from other European regions. We would probably need aDNA from Bronze Age Libyans to assess that. I do think it is possible that some of the ANF-like ancestry in the Abusir el-Meleq samples is from Libyan sources though, especially since that part of Egypt had a lot of immigrants from Libya after the New Kingdom.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: True, but I don't know if that disproves contributions to ancient Libyan ancestry from other European regions. We would probably need aDNA from Bronze Age Libyans to assess that. I do think it is possible that some of the ANF-like ancestry in the Abusir el-Meleq samples is from Libyan sources though, especially since that part of Egypt had a lot of immigrants from Libya after the New Kingdom.
As far as I know the first Europeans to settle Libya just west of Egypt were the Greeks, but even they spoke of blonde or red head natives.
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Fulani documented as far north as Siwa Oasis was my point. And the even the possibility of Hausas that far north is interesting.
Well the Fulani are nomadic not so much Hausa but they get around too. Most Fulani tend to range the Sahel west to east with the latter up to the Nile Valley, though some may cross the desert with camels. Mind you this is with the Sahara today so imagine how far their ancestors ranged during the Green Holocene. We have genetic evidence of this too as I will show..
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Seems that Arnaiz Villena´s findings have been criticized through the years. Wiki made a summary of the debate:
quote:Greeks and Sub-Saharans
Arnaiz-Villena et al. published five scientific articles, where, among other claims, they concluded that the Greek population originates from Sub-Saharan Africa and do not cluster with other Mediterraneans. The explanation they offered is that a large number of Sub-Saharans had migrated to Greece (but not to Crete) during Minoan times i.e. predating both Classical and Mycenaean Greece. Those conclusions were related to the "Black Athena" debate and became embroiled in disputes between Greek and ethnic Macedonian nationalists.
They cited Dörk et al. for having found a marker on Chromosome 7 that is common to Black Africans and, among Caucasoid populations, is found only in Greeks. Dörk et al. did find an African-type of cystic fibrosis mutation in Greeks, however this mutation was extremely rare; it was detected only in three Greek families. The explanation they offered is quite different from Arnaiz-Villena's. Dörk et al. state: "Historical contacts—for example, under Alexander the Great or during the ancient Minoan civilization—may provide an explanation for the common ancestry of disease mutations in these ethnically diverse populations."
Hajjej et al. claimed to have confirmed the genetic relatedness between Greeks and Sub-Saharans. However they used the same methodology (same gene markers) and same data samples like Arnaiz-Villena et al.
Other authors contradict Arnaiz-Villena's results. In The History and Geography of Human Genes (Princeton, 1994), Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza grouped Greeks with other European and Mediterranean populations based on 120 loci (view MDS plot). Then, Ayub et al. 2003 did the same thing using 182 loci (view dendrogram. Another study was conducted in 2004 at Skopje's University of Ss. Kiril and Metodij, using high-resolution typing of HLA-DRB1 according to Arnaiz-Villena's methodology. Contrary to Arnaiz-Villena's conclusion, no sub-Saharan admixture was detected in the Greek sample.
In a sample of 125 Greeks from Thessaloniki and Sarakatsani, 2 Asian-specific mtDNA sequences (M and D) were detected (1.6%). No sub-Saharan African genes were observed in this population, therefore, non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Greece is very low, as elsewhere in Europe. Additionally, in a sample of 366 Greeks from thirteen locations in continental Greece, Crete, Lesvos and Chios, a single African haplogroup A Y Chromosome was found (0.3%). This marks the only instance to date of sub-Saharan DNA being discovered in Greece. In another sample of 42 Greeks, one sequence of the Siberian Tat-C haplogroup turned up, while other studies with larger sample populations have failed to detect this paternal marker in the Greek gene pool and while its frequencies are actually much higher in Scandinavian and Slavic populations. Also, a paper has detected clades of haplogroups J and E3b that were likely not part of pre-historic migrations into Europe, but rather spread by later historical movements. Greeks possess none of the lineages denoting North African ancestry within the last 5000 years and have only 2% (3/148) of the marker J-M267, which may reflect more recent Middle Eastern admixture.
Jobling et al., in their genetics textbook "Human Evolutionary Genetics: Origins, Peoples & Disease", state that Arnaiz-Villena's conclusions on the Sub-Saharan origin of Greeks, is an example of arbitrary interpretation and that the methodology used is not appropriate for this kind of research. Karatzios C. et al., made a systematic review of genetics and historical documents, showing great flaws in Arnaiz-Villena's methodology and theory on the Greeks/Sub-Saharan genetic relationship.
Three respected geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, criticised Arnaiz-Villena's methodology. They stated that "Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics. The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups." Arnaiz-Villena et al. countered this criticism in a response, stating "single-locus studies, whether using HLA or other markers, are common in this field and are regularly published in the specialist literature".
A 2017 archaeogenetic study concluded concerning the origin of both the Minoans and Mycenaeans, that:
Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Myceneans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions.
The other proposed migrations that is mentioned and disproved by the paper pertain to Black Athena's positions that Arnaiz-Villena also tried to support with his work.
Yes, I am well aware. This was discussed before in the forum. His HLA work was shoddy considering that at that time it was harder to pin point HLA alleles as those are the most genetically diverse genes. That said, he did identify certain markers which were later verified.
Here is another study more recent than Villena.
HLA-DRB1 and -DQB1 loci in three west African ethnic groups: Genetic relationship with sub-Saharan African and European populations (2008) Abstract The Fulani of west Africa have been shown to be less susceptible to malaria and to mount a stronger immune response to malaria than sympatric ethnic groups. The analysis of HLA diversity is useful for the assessment of the genetic distance between the Fulani and sympatric populations, which represents the necessary theoretical background for the investigation of genetic determinants of susceptibility to malaria. We assessed the polymorphism of HLA-DRB1 and -DQB1 loci and analyzed the distribution of alleles/haplotypes in Fulani, Mossi, and Rimaibé from Burkina Faso. We then investigated the genetic relationship of these three ethnic groups with other sub-Saharan African populations as well as with Europeans. We confirmed that the Fulani from Burkina Faso are genetically distinct from sympatric Mossi and Rimaibé. Furthermore the Fulani from Burkina Faso are close to those from The Gambia and, intriguingly, share the distribution of specific alleles with east African populations (Amhara and Oromo). It is noteworthy that the HLA-DRB1*04 and -DQB1*02 alleles, which are implicated in the development of several autoimmune diseases, are present at high frequency in the Fulani, suggesting their potential involvement in the enhanced immune reactivity observed in this population.
HLA-DRB1*04 is what links ancient Egyptians to West Africans like Mandenka.
And one of the most common autoimmune disorders it causes is rheumatoid arthritis.
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quote:As far as I know the first Europeans to settle Libya just west of Egypt were the Greeks, but even they spoke of blonde or red head natives.
What are the dates of these reports?
1700bc 1300bc 400bc
quote:Berbers are undoubtedly the descendants of the races known to the Greeks and Romans under the generic name of Libyans. The Kabyles of the hills between Algiers and Bougie, and the Shawia of the Aures Mountains are very similar to one another and may be taken as typical Berbers. They are distinctly white-skinned, even when sunburned. Usually they have black hair and brown or hazel eyes, some have yellow hair and blue eyes. In the royal necropolis of Thebes of about 1300 B.C., certain Libyans are depicted as having a white skin, blue eyes and fair beards. Blonds are represented on Egyptian monuments from 1700 B.C. and were noted by the Greeks in the fourth century B.C. In the east the blonds have quite died out, but there are patches of this race in the west of North Africa. This fair race still remain an unsolved problem. Some students bring them from Spain, other authors from Italy, others again from the east. Perhaps they were a sporadic invasions and formed an aristocratic class. One suggestion is that they were Proto-Nordics who formed a part of the various groups of Asiatics who raided Egypt about 1300 B.C. and moved westwards. Alfred Cort Haddon, The Races of Man and Their Distribution (1924), University Press, 1924, p. 36
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^ The older journal and anthropological articles do distinguish white Berbers from darker Berbers. And if you're trying to compare that white Berber woman to Nofret the two have different features and Nofret was actually painted in the conventional yellow color which was brushed off her face.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The older journal and anthropological articles do distinguish white Berbers from darker Berbers. And if you're trying to compare that white Berber woman to Nofret the two have different features and Nofret was actually painted in the conventional yellow color which was brushed off her face.
Older journal articles is not a good argument. It means you are trying to justify racial terminology with potentially outdated sources. The thread title says "light skin" which is not a race word. Black and white are race words.
There are many photos of the Nofret/Rahotep sculpture so, without standing in front of it we cannot be certain that the color in this one is more accurate then others but regardless, arbitrarily using this one and comparing to a typical color yellow
The color in the photo is what is. I have sampled the color and put it in the squares, call the color what you want
Sometimes a more saturated yellow color is used depicting goddesses, to represent gold (they did not have gold paint) rather than real people depicted who might be a yellowish sand-like color
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Nofret was actually painted in the conventional yellow color which was brushed off her face.
You have no evidence of someone on modern times brushing off color
And if someone brushed off color you don't know which color was brushed off, the lighter or darker color
Whatever the case may be the condition is a bit streaky looking on the face's skin tone You don't know the reason, it may just be decay of the paint If this is the case the darker streaks might be the ones more similar to the original color. To speak to condition you can't just look at a photo and make assumptions, you would have to have some art conservationist or restorer's remarks who may have handled this sculpture There is also potential for inconsistences in the chemistry of the paint or if they painted in mire than one layer and these could have later caused the streakiness
Without standing in front of the sculpture we also don't know if this less yellowish color is more accurate than the other photo. I have seen a many this beige color
and of the great contrast in their skin tones are we to assume that that could not their actual skin tones? Are we to assume that she was the same color as Rahotep but they made her light for symbolic reasons? If that was the case it would have to be proven by Egyptian text not color theories of Egyptologists
Also this art is Old Kingdom Try finding any other color depiction of a female real person (not a goddess)
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What do you think of Ygor Coelhos commentary on Berber history on the site Quora? Ygor Coelho is a recurring writer on Quora and he often writes about history and genetics. He is no professional geneticist or historian but he often writes quite interesting posts.
quote: Question: Since the Berbers are Middle Eastern people who invaded Africa 10,000 years ago, and they expelled the black people who lived there earlier, does it mean that they are not real Africans?
Answer by Ygor Coelho
That isn't what happened. Berbers are a group of populations — a very heterogeneous one, I add — that emerged in North Africa itself when indigenous North African hunter-gatherers, early Anatolian farmers and later their European descendants, Levantine farmers and herders, West African farmers and East African herders met successively and gradually mixed to form new populations.
Of course, other African population clusters were native to their own core areas (e.g. West Africans, Nilotic East Africans, Horn African hunter-gatherers, Khoisan Southern Africans, at least two highly distinct clusters of Central African rainforest hunter-gatherers so-called “pygmies”). North Africa already had its own distinctive indigenous African population, which mixed with later waves of immigrants from several parts of Eurasia and Africa and is now ancestral to modern North Africans.
In fact, that’s such an ancient process of Eurasia-Africa interaction that the indigenous North African cluster itself was also a combination of an even older North African population (*not* identical nor even ancestral to any other extant African population cluster, either) with an also older and divergent layer of a West Eurasian population — a mixing event that may have happened even before the Last Glacial Maximum around 20,000–25,000 years ago.
No Berber-like population existed in the Middle East at any time in the past, nor even 10,000 years ago. You can’t find any Berber-like people among the ancient DNA samples from the entire Middle East, except, in later times, when they are evident genetic outliers, that is, obvious (i.e because they differ too much from the other samples in ancestry composition) immigrants or unmixed descendants of immigrants.
The typical Berber-like genetic makeup is the result of historical events that took place in North Africa itself from the onset of the Neolithic Period onward, and the modern populations that carry the most ancestral admixture from the Late Paleolithic inhabitants of Northwest Africa are the Berbers (average around ~25–35%), not any other African or non-African people.
Actually, Berbers tend to have MORE ancestry from the Late Paleolithic (i.e. ~10–20 kya) inhabitants of the broad zone where their current homelands are located than the large majority of Western and Central Europeans, Central Africans, East Africans, Southern Africans, Southeast Asians, Central Asians, West Siberians, and North Americans do. That is no small feat in a rapidly changing Holocene Era.
That kind of periodic renovation of the genetic ancestry composition of the inhabitants of a land is no novelty. It’s happened all over the world several times, and it didn’t happen in the last 10,000 years or so only in the most isolated parts of the world (at least not until the contemporary era).
Anyway, is there anything more racist and xenophobic than claiming a people is not “really from here” even if they and their ancestors have been living and evolving in that same area for the last 10,000 years? What's this obsession with racial/ethnogeographic purity? What’s up with this segregation between “real Africans” and “fake/illegitimate Africans” 10,000 years after an alleged invasion? Should then the descendants of African immigrants that moved to Europe, regardless of how mixed they might be, be still considered aliens and non-Europeans even 2,000 years from now? It’s really sad how often the oppressed one just seems to dream of becoming the oppressor eventually.
How long do you think a population needs to be living in some region to be considered native to it and to be viewed by modern foreigners moving to it as the indigenous population of the land that is receiving them? Because, if you think the minimum time required is longer than 2,000 years — or even 3,000 years — , then the overwhelming majority of the Bantu-speaking Africans are not any more indigenous and native to their current lands than the Chinese are native to Iraq just because they both happen to live in Africa.
Now, I bet that would be considered outrageous by a lot of Africans south of the Sahara… and yet we keep hearing those extreme ideas about what makes a people indigenous (or even just native) when it comes to Berbers, obviously just because of their physical appearance that does not fit within the very narrow and originally racist stereotype about what an “African is supposed to be/look like”, whereas everyone finds it perfectly fine that Asia is natively inhabited by totally different people like Georgians, Tamils, Yemenis, Malays and Koreans.
But it happens that the large majority of the ancestors of the Berbers were already living in North Africa before any typical Bantu African was living in, say, Mozambique, Kenya, Tanzania or South Africa. I hope that does not mean that you want us to say that those are not real natives of the lands thet have been inhabiting for dozens or even hundreds of generations.
Supplementary Figure S3: Plot of the D statistic in the form D(Fulani, Mandenka, Eurasia/Northern Africa, Chimpanzee), where the two clusters FulaniA and FulaniB are represented separately (blue and purple respectively).
So for dna studies when talking about mandinka they are talking about the Mandinka sub-group Mandinka/Mandenka.
Even Mandingo and Mandinka could be another word just for mande and Bambara,Malinke etc..and are not included as alternate word even if they are mande and they are too.
Yes i saw that too recently and that even adds more confusion.I was trying to find that website today but can't find it now.
There is someone or groups etc.. deliberately trying to add to this confusion.
Anybody else notice the deliberate confusion?
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