quote: Originally posted by Djehuti: There was however a heretical sect of Judaism known as the Notzrim meaning 'watchers' (Greek: Grigori) or more accurately 'gazers' since their whole name was Notzrim ha Kokavim-- Star Gazers. This sect centered their worship on astrology and even performed divination rituals which was forbidden. According to both Talmudic and Biblical references, they built towers which served as their centers for both astrological observation and ritual. They're referenced in 2nd Kings 17:9 with King Hoshea's raid against Samaria in which he came upon Sons of Israel who did things secretly which were not right against the LORD God. These Notzrim were most likely the forebears of the Harranian religion that became centered in Harran who were accused of worshipping the stars and planets which have angelic names. Unfortunately, some pharisees and even modern rabbis have wittingly or unwittingly confounded the early title of Netzrim (Scionists) for Christians with Notzrim.
^Thanks for the info on that sect. Will look into it. And yes, I can see what you mean about the difference between astrology in general and the making of personal horoscopes, although I'm not knowledgeable on that so I'll have to take your word on restrictions that may have been placed on astrology by religious authorities.
I'm curious about the Jewish sect you referred to, and what they were actually doing that offended Yahweh according to that verse. Was it really divination?
Up until recently I thought divination was forbidden, even after I had already disproved misconceptions about Judaism's relationship to the occult (which I had to do, ironically, by studying other things, as I was not helped in this by Christians in my environment). Divination as forbidden and not debatable was one of my last remaining misconceptions in this area of Judaism, that I only corrected in the beginning of 2023. What corrected my views was a work I came across on accident on the now lost Urim and Thummim divination stones that the OT says were used to communicate with Yahweh and which is just one more example of something my environment miseducated me on by refusing to talk about it (I was taught prayer is the only acceptable way to communicate with the god of the bible).
Even though I had already debunked many of my misconceptions, like I said, this is when I became full circle w/ my realization that occult practices aren't necessarily forbidden in Judaism. Even many practices that to us seem like full-blown occult can be sanctioned by Yahweh. And yes, according to esoteric Jewish literature, Yahweh does seem to sanction a lot of practices that are traditionally considered taboo by Christians. People would be surprised.
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There were many sects of Judaism and Christianity in the ancient world. But anyway, nothing to do with ancient Nile Valley usage of stars to predict events in life or personality based on birth date and star alignments.
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^ The problem is we don't have any of that indigenous Nile Valley astrological data. Most of the data we have comes from Ptolemaic times.
To Swenet, the word 'occult' means hidden and occultism as a practice simply means practices associated with the hidden that is spiritual world and its forces. ALL religions have some feature of occultism since they are based on the spiritual. In regards to divination, not all of it was forbidden. There were many types of divination and the Bible was clear about which types were forbidden while in other instances there was some ambiguity.
Jewish Divination Manticism & Clairvoyance in the Bible Within these general rubrics, the books of the Hebrew Scriptures make reference to myriad forms of mantic practices, both licit and illicit. The generic biblical words for divination are kesem and nahash. Among the accepted means of divination are prophets and seers of God (Deuteronomy 18:14-22; I Samuel 9:6; II Kings 3:11), one iromancy (dream interpretation; Genesis 37:5-9; Daniel), Urimand Thumim, the casting of lots (I Samuel 23:10-12), mic (II Kings 3:15), lecanomancy or hydromancy (reading patterns in liquid; Genesis 44:5), and word omens (I Samuel 14:9-10).
Illicit methods, condemned by biblical authors, include terafim (consulting idols; Zechariah 10:2), hepatoscopy or extispiciomancy (reading animal entrails; Ezekiel 21:26), necromancy (communing with the dead; I Samuel 15:23), belomancy (casting or shooting arrows; Ezekiel 21:26), and *astrology* (Isaiah 47:13; Jeremiah10:2).
At times, the biblical witnesses are not always in agreement about what constitutes legitimate mantic practice. Thus, for example, despite the cases of exemplary practitioners like Joseph and Daniel, the prophet Zechariah condemns one iromancy along with other forms of divination (10:2). II Kings 13:15-19 recounts a case of what appears to be prophetically endorsed belomancy.
Clairvoyant divination (revealing a hidden current reality) is less common, though veridical dreams are acknowledged as a way for mortals to understand God’s will (Genesis 20:3; I Samuel 3:3-10; I Kings, 3:5-15). Other acceptable forms of clairvoyance include the casting of lots to determine who enjoys God’s favor (I Samuel 10:20-24) and conferring with a seer to find a lost possession (I Samuel 9:6), though the evidence is more ambiguous here; given their narrative context, careful readers must decide whether we are meant to regard these two practices as efficacious, or merely ruses by the prophet to further God’s inscrutable purpose.
Biblical Diviners Many types of diviners are mentioned in Scripture. Under the general category of oracular prophets, there is the navi (prophet), the roeh (seer),and the ish elohim (man of God). There are also several terms formantics separate from the Israelite institution of prophecy, all of them being targets of condemnation: baal ov, itztzim, kosem kesamim, menahesh, meonen, and yeddioni.
The exact meaning of these terms is tentative, as the usage and meaning may well have changed within the time frame of the thousand years over which the Bible was composed. And, as in English, some terms may not even reflect technical distinctions, but are merely synonyms, often borrowed from other languages.
^ Note one of the illicit forms of divination was astrology which was what the Notzrim were guilty of. This is why the zodiac should properly be used to mark times and seasons and not determining destiny.
By the way, all these permitted divinatory practices were used by Levites and especially the priesthood in context of the Tabernacle/Temple. In the New Testament with the advent of the Messiah (Jesus) all divinatory practices became abolished especially with the destruction of the Temple. Thus in Christian belief the Holy Spirit would answer any questions directly, if not then so be it.
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^I think we're talking about different things.
For instance, I already stated here that I'm aware of mainstream views on this subject.
Unless I can get those claims confirmed by an authority on ancient Jewish beliefs and practices, I don't trust mainstream western sources on the subject of occult undercurrents in the bible, as westerners have their own historical baggage with pagans and the occult (e.g. burning of 'witches') and biases against so-called 'primitive' and 'superstitious' practices, and will often mix their own cultural and church establishment views with those of scripture.
According to the OT, Moses was instructed in all the occult arts of the Egyptians, and this knowledge was not used against him by the authors of the bible. Moses went toe to toe with Egyptian court magicians in a faceoff, but mainstream sources will claim Moses was somehow not doing what the Egyptians were doing, because 'that would be magic, and we all know the god of Israel is against magic' . The bible actually never says this, and claims to the contrary are mostly non-Jewish sources who think they can get the full meaning of ancient texts that belong to a foreign culture, simply because they possess the physical document and can translate the words. This is where the hubris becomes a joke that is on them because, as non-Jews, they're missing the oral transmissions that are supposed to go along with the texts.
Some of these have left writings, but the honest scholars studying these texts will admit that they cannot be penetrated to any meaningful depth.
I bet close reading of the relevant Hebrew verses will similarly reveal that the bible at best has astro sceptical portions in specific contexts (e.g. denouncing pagan cultures they considered as being on the wrong path of which unchecked astrology was merely a symptom, not the problem itself). But to my awareness this does not amount to prohibiting astrology.
But we can agree to disagree.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Unless I can get those claims confirmed by an authority on ancient Jewish beliefs and practices, I don't trust mainstream western sources on the subject of occult undercurrents in the bible, as westerners have their own historical baggage with pagans and the occult (e.g. burning of 'witches') and biases against so-called 'primitive' and 'superstitious' practices, and will often mix their own cultural and church establishment views with those of scripture.
The source I provided is a Jewish source and there are actually many Jewish sources that openly and adamantly explain occult traditions in their religion that is mentioned in the Bible. Brandon created a thread here about an alleged Jewish priestess based on the fact that there were discovered in an Elephantine temple, prayers and even curses authored by a woman. Many people don't realize that prayers and curses are occultic techniques. Paganism and the occult are two different things since even Christianity uses occult practices from priestly rites to simple rites from laity involving crucifixes, holy water, rosaries etc. By the way, the burning of witches is actually a pre-Christian pagan practice from Roman religion. The Bible in the Old Testament makes it clear that the punishment for witchcraft was stoning to death. And yes I'm aware that in Western Europe (as opposed to Eastern Europe/Byzantium) there was always a problem balancing scientism and skepticism devoid of spirituality vs. irrational superstition.
quote:According to the OT, Moses was instructed in all the occult arts of the Egyptians, and this knowledge was not used against him by the authors of the bible. Moses went toe to toe with Egyptian court magicians in a faceoff, but mainstream sources will claim Moses was somehow not doing what the Egyptians were doing, because 'that would be magic, and we all know the god of Israel is against magic' . The bible actually never says this, and claims to the contrary are mostly non-Jewish sources who think they can get the full meaning of ancient texts that belong to a foreign culture, simply because they possess the physical document and can translate the words. This is where the hubris becomes a joke that is on them because, as non-Jews, they're missing the oral transmissions that are supposed to go along with the texts.
Again, not all occult knowledge was something forbidden or against God. Ironically I have come across many Jewish sources saying how Moses learned things like alchemy from the Egyptians which was basically chemistry. Why would the Biblical authors be against that? Also not all magic is bad so long as the source of that power is God. When it comes to true magic or sorcery as opposed to illusionism it was understood in the ancient world that to use such forces invoked spirits or deities. The Bible makes it clear that the Israelites and other peoples of God are to commune with no other spirits. Thus the feat of Aaron's staff becoming a serpent devouring the other serpent staffs of the Egyptian priests was all done by the Holy Spirit. That was the difference the Israelites and modern Jews make between legit religious rites and kashaph (sorcery). Kabbalah has been rather controversial in this regard in that some of it rites have been contested by sages as to their legitimacy and whether they are truly of God. Christianity does not have that problem because the mystical rites practiced are much more simple and regulated by the church.
quote:Some of these have left writings, but the honest scholars studying these texts will admit that they cannot be penetrated to any meaningful depth.
I bet close reading of the relevant Hebrew verses will similarly reveal that the bible at best has astro-skeptical portions in specific contexts (e.g. denouncing pagan cultures they considered as being on the wrong path of which unchecked astrology was merely a symptom, not the problem itself). But to my awareness this does not amount to prohibiting astrology.
But we can agree to disagree.
That depends on what type of astrology is being practiced.
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. The bible actually never says this, and claims to the contrary are mostly non-Jewish sources who think they can get the full meaning of ancient texts that belong to a foreign culture, simply because they possess the physical document and can translate the words. This is where the hubris becomes a joke that is on them because, as non-Jews, they're missing the oral transmissions that are supposed to go along with the texts.
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