The Indians in the comment section seem to cosign this history of them coming from Africa.
Were Dravidians the predynastic Egyptians who were completely exiled from Africa? They definitely have a Nile Valley connection, and are definitely related according to the Greeks. All of Nubia included lands as far away as modern day India/Pakistan (or further).
When they exiled were they the primary African population that resettled the Mediterranean and Aegean following the Neolithic? I've seen linguistic comparison linking Dravidian to many if not all of those cultures. Then again again JK Campbell Dunn points to Niger-Congo being the substratum of Indo European.
15:23 "If you undertake to study all the native African tongues you know definitely reveal that they all evolved from ancient Tamil. As an ultimate truth we come to understand that the North African ancient language is called Tamazight and it's writing system was based on the Indus writing system. The very name Tamazight resonates with the Tamil and it's writing system was Indus and the Indus Civilization was a Tamil civilization this proves the fact that Tamil was the original language of the African continent"
Cameroonians Speak Tamil
Description
This video establishes the fact that one of the tribes of the west African nation, speak Tamil, using the Videos by NOVA.
In this video, for the first time, we have explained the origin of the name "Berber" of a tribe of people who speak Tamazight language. It is a north African language spoken by Moroco, Algeria & Libya people.
Berber means "Dry Land" people and word origin is Tamil Varavara, which is an adjective meaning Dry in Tamil. Our conclusion is proven right from the fact that Tinfinagh script of the Tamazight language is a derivative of Indus script which again is a Ancient Tamil Script.
Tamazight also sounds like Tamil. The fact that Cameroonians, situated close to Algeria, speak deformed dialect of Tamil, strengthens our conclusion that all the African languages including Tamazight, were derived from ancient Tamil.
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This could mean mankind originated in Southern India and then spread to Africa later
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"This could mean mankind originated in Southern India and then spread to Africa later"
That makes ZERO sense. They came from Africa, biological evidence has shown affinity towards these people in the form of cranial studies. Archaeology and linguistics also strongly support an African origin. The father of Indian history BB laal has made it clear that Indians originated in Africa, and migrated into Asia within the last 5-10,000 years.
That makes ZERO sense. They came from Africa, biological evidence has shown affinity towards these people in the form of cranial studies.
yes, the affinity shows that after mankind started in India people migrated to Africa, thus the physical affinity and bringing with them the Tamil language.
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quote:Originally posted by Big O: "This could mean mankind originated in Southern India and then spread to Africa later"
That makes ZERO sense. They came from Africa, biological evidence has shown affinity towards these people in the form of cranial studies. Archaeology and linguistics also strongly support an African origin. The father of Indian history BB laal has made it clear that Indians originated in Africa, and migrated into Asia within the last 5-10,000 years.
Interesting, and of course the evidence that mankind originated in Africa is too overwhelming.
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The Indians in the comment section seem to cosign this history of them coming from Africa.
Were Dravidians the predynastic Egyptians who were completely exiled from Africa? They definitely have a Nile Valley connection, and are definitely related according to the Greeks. All of Nubia included lands as far away as modern day India/Pakistan (or further).
When they exiled were they the primary African population that resettled the Mediterranean and Aegean following the Neolithic? I've seen linguistic comparison linking Dravidian to many if not all of those cultures. Then again again JK Campbell Dunn points to Niger-Congo being the substratum of Indo European.
The Dravidians originated in the Nile Valley. Their African origin is mentioned in ancient Indian literature.
During the Fifth Dynasty of Egypt (2563-2423), namely during the reign of Sahure there is mention of the Tehenu people. Sahure referred to the Tehenu leader “Hati Tehenu” . These Hatiu, correspond to the Hatti speaking people of Anatolia. The Hatti/Hurrian people often referred to themselves as Kashkas or Kaskas.
During the Old Kingdom the Kushites were also called heqa khasut. The term Heqa Khasut was used for the Kings of Nile Valley Kushites and the Hyksos. The term Heqa Khasute appears in line 46 of the Weni inscription.
There is mention of Nahuša, which correspond to the 15th Dynasty King Nhšy (Nehesy). Nehesy was a Hyksos prince.
The Nhsj (Nehesy) or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.
Srinivasan claims the Hurrian tribe was mentioned in the R V, called Hastuk ‘elephant herd’. Singer and Steiner, said the Hurrians lived in Mittanni. Mittanni was situated on the great bend of the Upper Euphrates river. Hurrian was spoken in eastern Anatolia and North Syria .
In the Indian records the individual Hurrian was called Hasti. Srinivasan made it clear that Hasti corresponds to Egyptian (Hšty) Hštyw (Ta Seti). Ta Seti is mentioned in Egyptian literature as an early Kushite nation in Nubia. Asoka Prakrit inscriptions mention several Dravidian tribes including Cholas, Seraa (Tamil), Keras (Keraalputra ) , Pandya, Cheras and Satyaputra. The Cholas were Telugu speakers. The Chola were related to the Naga. The Naga were suppose to have lived in Naagaloka, in the Underworld. Dr. Srinivasan believes the Purana underworld: Nagaloka was located in upper Nubia.
The Chola Kings in the Puranas were called Ikshvaakuš or Heqa Khasut like the Nehesy kings of the Nile Valley. Ikshvaa of the Puranas corresponds to ḫЗšt (Khasut).
The ancient Indian records indicate the Chola came to India with a great knowledge of war strategy, charioteering, ship building and navigation.
The Chola are related to the Naga. This is evident in the story of the romance between the Chola and Naga princess. Srinivasan wrote “In both [legends] the son of their union came from Naagaloka in Paataal was a real country of Upper Nubia, the myths point to a connection of the Chola with Nubia. To realize some important points of similarities the Cholas and the great Napatan Kingdom of Nubia…”.
In the Indian texts the royal title of the Cholas was Qore/Kora/Chora. In Meroitic, qore was the title for king. Among the Tamils Chola is pronounced with a /r/. As a result, in Prakrit inscription Cholas is written as Soraa and Koraa. Srinivasan suggested that the Qore “Korites” of the Bible ( 1 Chronicles 26:1), may be the same people.
A coastal region of East India was called Coromandel / Koramandal ‘domain of Koraa” . Koraa is a dynastic name for the Cholas . The royal insignia of the Cholas was snakes. Twin serpents was a popular symbol of royalty among the Napatan Kings.
The Napatan Kushite double crown was worn by the rulers of Kerma. It was called the Double Wadjet Crown. This Wadjet crown was worn by Taharqa.
In summary the Telugu speakers belonged to the Tehenu and Nehesy tribes of Nubia, or Kush in the Nile Valley. The Telugu and Egyptian languages share many terms because the Chola came from Kaši or Kush, which was called Kušadvipa. They migrated into Anatolia and formed several city states including the Hurrian/Mitanni and Kassite states and were members of the Hatti Confederation.
The major Telugu state in India was Chola. In the Puranas the Chola were also called Kora/Chora /Qore. The Chola who came to India by land and sea settled on the Coromande coast. It takes it’s name from the word Koraa, one of the names for the Chola Dynasty.
Ancient Telugu continued in India to refer to themselves as Heqa Khasut or IkshvaaKuš. The royal insignia for the Chola were two snakes. The two snakes as a symbol of royalty goes back to the Napatan Kings of Kush (Nubia) who wore the Double Wadjet crown.
You can find out more in my book: Nile Valley History and the Rigveda here
References:
Bright, John (2000). "A History of Israel". Westminster John Knox Press . Borchardt, L. Das Grabdenkmal des Konigs Sahure. Vol. II, Table 1. Brass, M. (2013). Revisiting a hoary chestnut: the nature of early cattle domestication in North-East Africa. Sahara (Segrate, Italy), 24, 65–70. Drews, Robert ( 1994). "The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East". Princeton University Press El Mosallamy,A.H.S. Libyco-Berber relations with ancient Egypt:The Tehenu in Egyptian records. In (pp.51-68) 1986, p.55; Lal, B B. 1963. "The Only Asian Expedition in threatened Nubia:Work by an India Mission at Afyeh and Tumas". THE ILLUSTRATED TIMES, 20 April. Levy et al. ( 1997).Egyptian-Canaanite Interaction at Nahal Tillah, Israel (ca. 4500-3000 B. C. E.): An Interim Report on the 1994-1995 Excavations. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302287010_Egyptian-Canaanite_Interaction_at_Nahal_Tillah_Israel_ca_4500-3000_B_C_E_An_Interim_Report_on_the_1994-1995_Excavations Mitchell P., Paul Lane (Ed.),(2013). The Oxford Handbook of African Archaeology. Oxford . Miller N.F., Robert N Spengler, Michael Frachetti. (2010). Millet cultivation across Eurasia: Origins, spread, and the influence of seasonal climate, The Holocene , Vol. 26 10:1566-1575 Singer, Itamar. (1981). Hittites and Hattians in Anatolia at the beginning of the Second Millennium B.C., Journal of Indo-European Studies, 9 (1-2):119-149. Srinivasan, L.. Myths, Metaphors and Dravidians. Indian Linguistics, 66:133-156. Steiner, Gerd. (1981).The role of the Hittites in ancient Anatolia, Journal of Indo-European Studies, 9 (1-2): 119-149. Wengrow, D., Dee, M., Foster, S., Stevenson, A., & Ramsey, C. (2014). Cultural convergence in the Neolithic of the Nile Valley: A prehistoric perspective on Egypt's place in Africa. Antiquity, 88(339), 95-111. [URL=https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/cultural-convergence-in-the-neolithic-of-the-nile-valley-a-prehistoric-perspective-on-egypts-place-in-africa/198005B5 D23B644951E17B3F0803AF74]https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/cultural-convergence-in-the-neolithic-of-the-nile-valley-a-prehistoric-perspective-on-egypts-plac e-in-africa/198005B5D23B6 44951E17B3F0803AF74
Here is my latest video on the reality that the Nile Valley is the subject of Ancient India literature. Just click on the Video below
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The Indians in the comment section seem to cosign this history of them coming from Africa.
Were Dravidians the predynastic Egyptians who were completely exiled from Africa? They definitely have a Nile Valley connection, and are definitely related according to the Greeks. All of Nubia included lands as far away as modern day India/Pakistan (or further).
When they exiled were they the primary African population that resettled the Mediterranean and Aegean following the Neolithic? I've seen linguistic comparison linking Dravidian to many if not all of those cultures. Then again again JK Campbell Dunn points to Niger-Congo being the substratum of Indo European.
The Dravidians originated in the Nile Valley. Their African origin is mentioned in ancient Indian literature
Clyde, you made a big post yet not addressing the linguistic aspect of thread topic >
1) Is Tamil Spoken by Cameroonians?
2) Is Tamil language similar in particular to Tamazight or any other specific language in Africa?
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also
3) can you quote a work of ancient Indian literature that supports your claim that Dravidians have an African origin?
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The the same youtube channel that produced this Big O thread topic tiled "Cameroonians Speak Tamil" also said in another video "out of Africa Theory is definitely defeated by this video"
The Indians in the comment section seem to cosign this history of them coming from Africa.
Were Dravidians the predynastic Egyptians who were completely exiled from Africa? They definitely have a Nile Valley connection, and are definitely related according to the Greeks. All of Nubia included lands as far away as modern day India/Pakistan (or further).
When they exiled were they the primary African population that resettled the Mediterranean and Aegean following the Neolithic? I've seen linguistic comparison linking Dravidian to many if not all of those cultures. Then again again JK Campbell Dunn points to Niger-Congo being the substratum of Indo European.
The Dravidians originated in the Nile Valley. Their African origin is mentioned in ancient Indian literature
Clyde, you made a big post yet not addressing the linguistic aspect of thread topic >
1) Is Tamil Spoken by Cameroonians?
2) Is Tamil language similar in particular to Tamazight or any other specific language in Africa?
_____________________
also
3) can you quote a work of ancient Indian literature that supports your claim that Dravidians have an African origin?
_________________________
The the same youtube channel that produced this Big O thread topic tiled "Cameroonians Speak Tamil" also said in another video "out of Africa Theory is definitely defeated by this video"
The people in the video spoke Mofu, a Chadic language.This video confirms the relationship batween Chadic and Dravidian languages. Tamazight is not related to Tamil.Tamil is related to the Mande, Nubia and Somali languages to name a few.
A comparison of Egyptian, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande, Elamite,Dravidian and Sumerian indicated that they diverged from a common ancestor. The Dravidian examples discussed below are taken from Tamil. All of these languages share pronouns and demonstrative bases. (Winters 1989a) This is proven by a comparison of cognate culture terms. .
. The above examples from languages spoken by blacks validates Diop's theory that there were cognate black civilizations in Africa and Asia, before the expansion of the Indo-European speaking peoples after 1500 BC. This linguistic data which is outlined in further detail elsewhere (Winters 1985b,1989a) illustrates that a common cultural macrostructure is shared by these speakers, which subsequently evolved along separate lines. The Dravidians and Mande began to migrate out of Africa by 2800BC. They were part of the C-Group. They first settled in Iran and from here expanded into Central Asia and the Indus Valley.
B.B. Lal ("The Only Asian expedition in threatened Nubia:Work by an Indian Mission at Afyeh and Tumas", The Illustrated London Times , 20 April 1963) and Indian Egyptologist has shown conclusively that the Dravidians originated in the Saharan area 5000 years ago. He claims they came from Kush, in the Fertile African Crescent and were related to the C-Group people who founded the Kerma dynasty in the 3rd millennium B.C. (Lal 1963) The Dravidians used a common black-and-red pottery, which spread from Nubia, through modern Ethiopia, Arabia, Iran into India as a result of the Proto-Saharan dispersal.
. B.B. Lal (1963) a leading Indian archaeologist in India has observed that the black and red ware (BRW) dating to the Kerma dynasty of Nubia, is related to the Dravidian megalithic pottery. Singh (1982) believes that this pottery radiated from Nubia to India. This pottery along with wavy-line pottery is associated with the Saharo-Sudanese pottery tradition of ancient Africa . I call these people the Proto Saharans. I discuss their history here:
Aravaanan (1980) has written extensively on the African and Dravidian relations. He has illustrated that the Africans and Dravidian share many physical similarities including the dolichocephalic indexes (Aravaanan 1980,pp.62-263; Raceand History.com,2006), platyrrhine nasal index (Aravaanan 1980,pp.25-27), stature (31-32) and blood type (Aravaanan 1980,34-35; RaceandHistory.com,2006). Aravaanan (1980,p.40) also presented much evidence for analogous African and Dravidian cultural features including the chipping of incisor teeth and the use of the lost wax process to make bronze works of arts (Aravaanan 1980,p.41).
There are also similarities between the Dravidian and African religions. For example, both groups held a common interest in the cult of the Serpent and believed in a Supreme God, who lived in a place of peace and tranquility ( Thundy, p.87; J.T. Cornelius,"Are Dravidians Dynastic Egyptians", Trans. of the Archaeological Society of South India 1951-1957, pp.90-117; and U.P. Upadhyaya, "Dravidian and Negro-African", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 5, no.1) .
There are also affinities between the names of many gods including Amun/Amma and Murugan . Murugan the Dravidian god of the mountains parallels a common god in East Africa worshipped by 25 ethnic groups is called Murungu, the god who resides in the mountains .
Up until the South Indian megalithic period the Dravidians continued to use black-and-red ware and Libyco-Berber/Indus Valley writing. Under the influence of the Ethiopians the script changed into what it is today. The architecture of the Dravidians is an ornamented pyramid with statues and other featured added within the construction of the pyramid.
The architecture makes it clear that they have remained faithful to classical pyramid style.
Dravidians have a unique culture—but it is analogous to many culture presently found in Africa.
Given the genetic unity of these languages I named this group B(lack) Af(rican), Su(merian), Draa(vidian), (E)lam or Bafsudraalam Superset of languages. This supports Diop's use of the comparative method to illuminate the African past.
Tamil is related to these languages and more. I wrote about these linguistic relations in my articles on these languages for the Dravidian Encyclopadea back in the 1980's. You can read more about this relationship in my book
Dr. Homburger was the first researcher to discover a relationship between African and Dravidian languages. Tamil should be classified as a Niger-Congo language See: https://www.webmedcentral.com/article_view/3149
References:
Clyde Winters, Egyptian Language:The Mountains of the Moon Niger-Congo Speakers and the Origin of Egypt. 2013.
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In the topic video presented by Big O, " Cameroonians Speak Tamil" in the description box of the video it says
"Tamazight resonates with the Tamil and it's writing system was Indus and the Indus Civilization was a Tamil civilization this proves the fact that Tamil was the original language of the African continent"
But if Tamazight is actually not related to Tamil where does it come from?
quote:Originally posted by Big O:
Tamil Spoken in Cameroon?...Dravidians of Saharan-Nubian Origins?
Also looking at this video. Do you think any of the details here about particular words in whatever Chadic language the Cameroonians are speaking here are properly associated with Tamil words? Are there any proper connections being made here that make linguistic sense?
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posted
Good information Dr. Winters! Question though, it seems that Dravidians made a complete exist from Africa. Is there historical context to their exist? In pre-dynastic Nile Valley civilization were they the population that worshipped Seth? Diop acknowledges the likihood that the "racially ambiguous") Northern Egyptian type were Dravidians (countering Chancellor William's assertion that they were White people). We know that they were exiled by Narmer, and likely went into Asia. The only cults in those regions were African cults (Seth), and the Hyksos proved that when they came back into Africa. I think that Hyksos likely resulted from a mixture of that Dravidian type leaving Africa and them mixing in with nomadic white populations wandering throughout Asia.
quote:Originally posted by Big O: Good information Dr. Winters! Question though, it seems that Dravidians made a complete exist from Africa. Is there historical context to their exist? In pre-dynastic Nile Valley civilization were they the population that worshipped Seth? Diop acknowledges the likihood that the "racially ambiguous") Northern Egyptian type were Dravidians (countering Chancellor William's assertion that they were White people). We know that they were exiled by Narmer, and likely went into Asia. The only cults in those regions were African cults (Seth), and the Hyksos proved that when they came back into Africa. I think that Hyksos likely resulted from a mixture of that Dravidian type leaving Africa and them mixing in with nomadic white populations wandering throughout Asia.
Most of the Hyksos never left Africa they were the dominant people in Lower Egypt. Yes the Hyksos worshipped Seth, just like Seti of the New Kingdom, who also came from Lower Egypt. The Hyksos were Kushites here, and here .
The Dravidians belonged to the C-Group, they were not pushed out by Narmer. According to the Indian literature, it was Hyksos who mixed with Central Asian whites to form the Indo-Aryan people.
Dravidians usually left Africa along with the Mande people.Appearance of Straight hair of such groups as the Nubians, Fulani and Dravidians are probably the result of West Africa and the Sahara containing glaciers in ancient times, especially in the Atlas Mountains. The presence of straight hair and oriental fold are the direct consequence of adaptation made by humans who live in an arctic environment.
During the Old Kingdom the Kushites were also called heqa khasut. The term Heqa Khasut was used for the Kings of Nile Valley Kushites and the Hyksos. The term Heqa Khasute appears in line 46 of the Weni inscription.
There is mention of Nahuša, which correspond to the 15th Dynasty King Nhšy (Nehesy). Nehesy was a Hyksos prince. He was also recognized as the Emperor of the Su Dynasty.
.
.
The Nhsj (Nehesy) or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.
Srinivasan claims the Hurrian tribe was mentioned in the R V, called Hastuk ‘elephant herd’. Singer and Steiner, said the Hurrians lived in Mittanni. Mittanni was situated on the great bend of the Upper Euphrates river. Hurrian was spoken in eastern Anatolia and North Syria .
In the Indian records the individual Hurrian was called Hasti. Srinivasan made it clear that Hasti corresponds to Egyptian (Hšty) Hštyw (Ta Seti). Ta Seti is mentioned in Egyptian literature as an early Kushite nation in Nubia. Asoka Prakrit inscriptions mention several Dravidian tribes including Cholas, Seraa (Tamil), Keras (Keraalputra ) , Pandya, Cheras and Satyaputra. The Cholas were Telugu speakers. The Chola were related to the Naga. The Naga were suppose to have lived in Naagaloka, in the Underworld. Dr. Srinivasan believes the Purana underworld: Nagaloka was located in upper Nubia.
The Chola Kings in the Puranas were called Ikshvaakuš or Heqa Khasut like the Nehesy kings of the Nile Valley. Ikshvaa of the Puranas corresponds to ḫЗšt (Khasut).
The ancient Indian records indicate the Chola came to India with a great knowledge of war strategy, charioteering, ship building and navigation.
The Chola are related to the Naga. This is evident in the story of the romance between the Chola and Naga princess. Srinivasan wrote “In both [legends] the son of their union came from Naagaloka in Paataal was a real country of Upper Nubia, the myths point to a connection of the Chola with Nubia. To realize some important points of similarities the Cholas and the great Napatan Kingdom of Nubia…”.
In the Indian texts the royal title of the Cholas was Qore/Kora/Chora. In Meroitic, qore was the title for king. Among the Tamils Chola is pronounced with a /r/. As a result, in Prakrit inscription Cholas is written as Soraa and Koraa. Srinivasan suggested that the Qore “Korites” of the Bible ( 1 Chronicles 26:1), may be the same people.
A coastal region of East India was called Coromandel / Koramandal ‘domain of Koraa” . Koraa is a dynastic name for the Cholas . The royal insignia of the Cholas was snakes. Twin serpents was a popular symbol of royalty among the Napatan Kings.
The Napatan Kushite double crown was worn by the rulers of Kerma. It was called the Double Wadjet Crown. This Wadjet crown was worn by Taharqa.
In summary the Telugu speakers belonged to the Tehenu and Nehesy tribes of Nubia, or Kush in the Nile Valley. The Telugu and Egyptian languages share many terms because the Chola came from Kaši or Kush, which was called Kušadvipa. They migrated into Anatolia and formed several city states including the Hurrian/Mitanni and Kassite states and were members of the Hatti Confederation.
The major Telugu state in India was Chola. In the Puranas the Chola were also called Kora/Chora /Qore. The Chola who came to India by land and sea settled on the Coromande coast. It takes it’s name from the word Koraa, one of the names for the Chola Dynasty.
Ancient Telugu continued in India to refer to themselves as Heqa Khasut or IkshvaaKuš. The royal insignia for the Chola were two snakes. The two snakes as a symbol of royalty goes back to the Napatan Kings of Kush (Nubia) who wore the Double Wadjet crown. .
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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In ancient times there was a large Island the Indian Ocean called Kumarinadu. Kamarinadu or Kumari-Kandam formerly existed as a large Island in the India ocean which connected India with East Africa.
. .
but Kumarinadu aka Lemuria isn't touching Africa in the above
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Dravidian literature makes it clear that the Dravidian people came to South India from the North, South and East. The final Dravidian speaking people to enter South India were the Tamil. The Tamil, who were early Kings of Shang China, were forced out of China
So the Dravidians were in China before they went to India
Big O, this is very interesting
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In ancient times there was a large Island the Indian Ocean called Kumarinadu. Kamarinadu or Kumari-Kandam formerly existed as a large Island in the India ocean which connected India with East Africa.
. .
but Kumarinadu aka Lemuria isn't touching Africa in the above
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Dravidian literature makes it clear that the Dravidian people came to South India from the North, South and East. The final Dravidian speaking people to enter South India were the Tamil. The Tamil, who were early Kings of Shang China, were forced out of China
So the Dravidians were in China before they went to India
Big O, this is very interesting
They were not in China first. The Dravidians associated with the migration from China were the Yueh-chih.
First, I would like to make it clear that the probable language of the Kushana was Tamil. According to Dravidian literature, the Kushana were called Kosars=Yakshas=Yueh chih/ Kushana. This literature maintains that when they entered India they either already spoke Tamil, or adopted the language upon settlement in India.
The Kushana and the Yueh chih were one and the same. In addition to North Indian documents the Kushana-Yueh chih association are also discussed in Dravidian literature.V Kanakasabhai,The Tamils Eighteen hundred years ago,note that in theSanskrit literature the Yueh chih were called Yakshas, Pali chroniclers called them Yakkos and Kosars< Kushana.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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In ancient times there was a large Island the Indian Ocean called Kumarinadu. Kamarinadu or Kumari-Kandam formerly existed as a large Island in the India ocean which connected India with East Africa.
. .
but Kumarinadu aka Lemuria isn't touching Africa in the above
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Dravidian literature makes it clear that the Dravidian people came to South India from the North, South and East. The final Dravidian speaking people to enter South India were the Tamil. The Tamil, who were early Kings of Shang China, were forced out of China
So the Dravidians were in China before they went to India
Big O, this is very interesting
They were not in China first. The Dravidians associated with the migration from China were the Yueh-chih/Yuezhi.
First, I would like to make it clear that the probable language of the Kushana was Tamil. According to Dravidian literature, the Kushana were called Kosars=Yakshas=Yueh chih/ Kushana. This literature maintains that when they entered India they either already spoke Tamil, or adopted the language upon settlement in India.
The Kushana and the Yueh chih were one and the same. In addition to North Indian documents the Kushana-Yueh chih association are also discussed in Dravidian literature.V Kanakasabhai,The Tamils Eighteen hundred years ago,note that in theSanskrit literature the Yueh chih were called Yakshas, Pali chroniclers called them Yakkos and Kosars< Kushana.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The Yuezhi were the Kushana, a Black population that spoke Tamil.
The Kushana and the Yuezhi are one and the same. The Kushana- Yuezhi association is discussed in Chinese and Dravidian literature. V Kanakasabhai, The Tamils Eighteen hundred years ago note that in the Sanskrit literature the Ramayana and Matsya, the Yuezhi were called Yakshas or Kosar. The Pali chroniclers called them Yakkos and Kosars< Kushana.
The Chinese called the Blacks of China Yueh. The Yueh people were also called Yuezhi or Kuishuang [Kushana]. The Yueh of North China established Xia. According to the Yi Xia Dong Xi Shuo, by Fu Ssumein. The li Qiang Black Qiang of Shang were united with the Yueh people of southwest China. Tochari is a Turkic word for Western European whites in Central Asia. The Greeks called the Yuezhi: Kushana in the Karosthi inscriptions, and Kocano, not Tochari. In the Chinese sources the Kushana were called Koei-shuang or Kwei-shwang = Yuezhi . The Kushana/Yuezhi made fine sculptures and engraved beautiful carved sheets of ivory. Their plaques are some of the finest art pieces in India.
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The greatest king of the Kushana was Kaniska. Kaniska came to power between A.D. 78-144. (Thapar 1972, p.92)
Kaniska ruled an empire extending from Central Asia, to Varansi in the Ganges Valley. He supported the arts and repaired many Kushana monuments and cities.
Kaniska had two capitals. The capital in Central Asia was Bergraam or Kupura in Afghanistan, while in India the capital was established at Muthura.
The Kushana/ Yuezhi were at this time in control of the Silk Road, which took Chinese goods to the West. It was also under the Kushana that Buddhism entered China. The Kushana ruled India for almost 200 years.
They show the Black African or Sub-Saharan African/Dravidian types.
The Kushana conquered the Sakas and Parthians and took control of an empire stretching from the Oxus river in Afghanistan, to the Ganges plains of India. This unite under one authority the former dominions of the Indo-Greeks and the Sunga dynasts.
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In ancient times there was a large Island the Indian Ocean called Kumarinadu. Kamarinadu or Kumari-Kandam formerly existed as a large Island in the India ocean which connected India with East Africa.
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but Kumarinadu aka Lemuria isn't touching Africa in the above
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Dravidian literature makes it clear that the Dravidian people came to South India from the North, South and East. The final Dravidian speaking people to enter South India were the Tamil. The Tamil, who were early Kings of Shang China, were forced out of China
So the Dravidians were in China before they went to India
Big O, this is very interesting
. Africans could have sailed or walked to Kumarinadu.
The Dravidian tradition of Kumarinadu is not the same as the Lemuria theory. The Dravidians have documented sources claiming that Kumari nadu was present in the Indian Ocean during historic times. this means that people could have walked to Australia, India and Southeast Asia.
I don't accept everything that Europeans write as the God given answer to every question. I do accept that people in otherlands have their own histories which they know for themselves and we do no have to hypothesize on what their history was/is based on our own assumptions. If they tell us this or that about where they came from, and when they migrated to this point or that I can accept what they teach.
The whole idea that only hunter-gathers migrated out of Africa is not valid. We know that by 100,000 BC Africans were in Brazil. They could have only came by sea. This fact alone makes it clear that in very prehistoric times civilizations existed in Africa, that practiced more than hunting and gathering as their major means of sustenance.
The Megalakes which extended for thousands of miles would have made Africans navigating these lakes expert seamen since they would have been confronted by various weather patterns. Given the probable long distances between some towns they would have been familiar with stocking up on enough goods to make a successful voyage.
it is time we take a serious look at the nautical history of African people. The idea that the first civilizations in Africa were solely hunter-gather without boat technology is groundless. We have to move away from European ideas about the origins of sailing and boat technology.
The varied style of crafts depicted in the Sahara indicate that Africans made seacraft that was capable of traveling in rough waters and in the Ocean.
Look at this map of the Mega lakes that formerly existed in Africa. These lakes were thousands of miles long. The weather on these inland seas given the size of the lakes would have made conditions similar to what sailors would have experienced sailing in the Ocean.
Moreover we find that by 100kya African tool kits appear in Brazil and on the island of Crete. This archaeological evidence indicates that Africans were sailing great distances at a time we believe that AMH were simply gathering seeds and berries to eat—instead of fishing for supplemental source of food.
Ancient Africans were probably great navigators. They had to have been great navigators to have sailed fromAfrica to Brazil 100,000 years ago. They probably gained their nautical ability sailing on the Megalakes of Middle Africa which allowed you to sail from North Africa to South Africa.
Secondly, kumarinadu, land mass connecting Africa to south india and beyond was probably the way the various African populations beginning with the Australians migrated into Asia. Kumarinadu, was last ruled by the Pandyans, so the land mass existed into historic times.
[ 21. October 2021, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
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SO Lioness wouldn't you say that this is proof that the Dravidians came from Africa? If so why do you think that there is so much contention to deny this African connection?
SO Lioness wouldn't you say that this is proof that the Dravidians came from Africa?
By 55,000 years ago, the first modern humans had arrived on the Indian subcontinent from Africa Homo sapiens arrived in Europe around 45,000 and 43,000 years ago
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SO Lioness wouldn't you say that this is proof that the Dravidians came from Africa?
By 55,000 years ago, the first modern humans had arrived on the Indian subcontinent from Africa Homo sapiens arrived in Europe around 45,000 and 43,000 years ago
Dravidian speakers only arrived in India 5kya from Africa 14-15.
This would explain why Dravidian tribal populations and Africans share several y-chromosomes
1) You're saying Dravidian speakers arrived in India 5kya but you also say "14-15" what are you referring to when you say "14-15" ? I don't understand that part
2) Why aren't you outright saying Dravidian speakers are Africans if only 5,000 years ago some of them migrated to India?
3) what place in Africa does Dravidian language come from?
4) when you say Dravidian tribal populations and Africans share several Y-chromosomes do Africans share every chromosome with tribal Dravidian populations in India or are there also some chromosomes that they don't share?
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posted
1) You're saying Dravidian speakers arrived in India 5kya but you also say "14-15" what are you referring to when you say "14-15" ? I don't understand that part
These were footnotes
2) Why aren't you outright saying Dravidian speakers are Africans
African tribes have varied names or they belong to linguistic families. For example, the Mande languages include Soninke, Malinke-Bambara, Mende and etc.Dravidian is a generic name of a family of languages, like Mande.I am out right saying the Dravidians are Africans, I just refer to them as Dravidians like I refer to the Mande group.
3) what place in Africa does Dravidian language come from?
They lived in an area from Chad to the Nile Valley.
4) when you say Dravidian tribal populations and Africans share several Y-chromosomes do Africans share every chromosome with tribal Dravidian populations in India or are there also some chromosomes that they don't share?
People carry varied genes.
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3) what place in Africa does Dravidian language come from?
They lived in an area from Chad to the Nile Valley.
a) What particular language in that region is Dravidian, if not most related African language that Dravidian emerges from?
b) kumarinadu* is described by some is a land mass connecting Africa to south India. Do you believe that to be a fact or just possibility?
*including the idea that humans lived on it at the time
Tamil and other Dravidian languages belong to the Niger-Congo Family of languages.
Only Euronuts and their negro and asian flunkies believe the Dravidians did not come from Africa. Dravidian Indians have various hair textures just like Blacks in Africa.
It was Dravidians who proved that Dravidian speaking people originated in Africa, and that Dravidians and Africans are related historically and genetically. The Niger-Congo (NC) Superfamily of languages is the largest family of languages spoken in Africa. Researchers have assumed that the NC speakers originated in West Africa in the Inland Niger Delta or East Africa. The research indicates that the NC speakers originated in the Saharan Highlands 12kya and belonged to the Ounanian culture. The NC population cultivated millet from Saharan Africa to South India.
Phylogenetically the NC mtDNA haplogroups include L1,L2,L3, U5, L3(M,N). The y-Chromosome haplotypes associated with the NC population were A,B, E1b1a, E1b1b, E2, E3a and R1. A major finding was that the Atlantic, Mande and Dravidian languages of India, form a new NC Subfamily we can designate Indo-African. See:
The Niger-Congo Speakers probably played an important role in the peopling of the Sahara. Drake et al make it clear there was considerable human activity in the Sahara before it became a desert[1]. Drake et al [1] provides evidence that the original settlers of this wet Sahara, who used aquatic tool kits, were Nilo-Saharan (NS) speakers. The authors also recognized another Saharan culture that played a role in the peopling of the desert. This population hunted animals with the bow-and –arrow; they are associated with the Ounanian culture. The Ounanian culture existed 12kya [2]. The Ounanians were members of the Capsian population.There was continuity between the populations in the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Capsians, Iberomaurusians, and Mechtoids [3]. The Niger-Congo speakers are decendants of the Capsian population. Capsian people did not only live in Afrca, they were also present in South Asia. Using craniometric data researchers have made it clear that the Dravidian speakers of South India and the Indus valley were primarily related to the ancient Capsian or Mediterranean population [4-9]. Lahovary [7] and Sastri [8] maintains that the Capsian population was unified over an extensive zone from Africa, across Eurasia into South India. Some researchers maintain that the Capsian civilization originated in East Africa [7].
The Ounanian culture is associated with sites in central Egypt, Algeria, Mali, Mauretania and Niger [10]. The Ounanian tradition is probably associated with the Niger-Congo phyla. This would explain the close relationship between the Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan languages.
The original homeland of the Niger-Congo speakers was probably situated in the Saharan Highlands during the Ounanian period. From here NC populations migrated into the Fezzan, Nile Valley and Sudan as their original homeland became more and more arid.
The Niger-Congo speakers formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. Originally hunter-gatherers the Proto-Niger- Congo people developed an agro-pastoral economy which included the cultivation of millet, and domestication of cattle (and sheep).
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The anthropological and linguistic data make it clear that East Indian people came to India from Africa during the Neolithic and not the Holocene period.Dravidian languages belong to the Niger-Congo family.
In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The traditional view for the population origins in India suggest that the earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Clyde A. Winters, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians",Tamil Civilizations 3, no.1(1985), pp.1-9. (http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf ). The the Proto-Dravidians were probably one of the cattle herding groups that made up the C-Group culture of Nubia Kush (K.P. Aravanan, "Physical and Cultural Similarities between Dravidian and African", Journal of Tamil Studies, no.10 (1976, pp.23-27:24. ).
Genetics as noted by Mait Metspalu et al writing in 2004, in “Most extant mtDNA boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were likely shaped during the initial settlement of Eurasia by anatomically modern humans” http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/5/26
can not tell which group first entered India. Mait Metspalu wrote _________________________________________________________________ Language families present today in India, such as Indo-European, Dravidic and Austro-Asiatic, are all much younger than the majority of indigenous mtDNA lineages found among the present day speakers at high frequencies. It would make it highly speculative to infer, from the extant mtDNA pools of their speakers, whether one of the listed above linguistically defined group in India should be considered more “autochthonous” than any other in respect of its presence in the subcontinent (p.9). ________________________________________________________________________
B.B. Lal ("The Only Asian expedition in threatened Nubia:Work by an Indian Mission at Afyeh and Tumas", The Illustrated London Times , 20 April 1963) and Indian Egyptologist has shown conclusively that the Dravidians originated in the Saharan area 5000 years ago. He claims they came from Kush, in the Fertile African Crescent and were related to the C-Group people who founded the Kerma dynasty in the 3rd millennium B.C. (Lal 1963) The Dravidians used a common black-and-red pottery, which spread from Nubia, through modern Ethiopia, Arabia, Iran into India as a result of the Proto-Saharan dispersal.
B.B. Lal (1963) a leading Indian archaeologist in India has observed that the black and red ware (BRW) dating to the Kerma dynasty of Nubia, is related to the Dravidian megalithic pottery. Singh (1982) believes that this pottery radiated from Nubia to India. This pottery along with wavy-line pottery is associated with the Saharo-Sudanese pottery tradition of ancient Africa .
Aravaanan (1980) has written extensively on the African and Dravidian relations. He has illustrated that the Africans and Dravidian share many physical similarities including the dolichocephalic indexes (Aravaanan 1980,pp.62-263; Raceand History.com,2006), platyrrhine nasal index (Aravaanan 1980,pp.25-27), stature (31-32) and blood type (Aravaanan 1980,34-35; RaceandHistory.com,2006). Aravaanan (1980,p.40) also presented much evidence for analogous African and Dravidian cultural features including the chipping of incisor teeth and the use of the lost wax process to make bronze works of arts (Aravaanan 1980,p.41).
There are also similarities between the Dravidian and African religions. For example, both groups held a common interest in the cult of the Serpent and believed in a Supreme God, who lived in a place of peace and tranquility ( Thundy, p.87; J.T. Cornelius,"Are Dravidians Dynastic Egyptians", Trans. of the Archaeological Society of South India 1951-1957, pp.90-117; and U.P. Upadhyaya, "Dravidian and Negro-African", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 5, no.1 ) .
There are also affinities between the names of many gods including Amun/Amma and Murugan . Murugan the Dravidian god of the mountains parallels a common god in East Africa worshipped by 25 ethnic groups called Murungu, the god who resides in the mountains .
There is physical evidence which suggest an African origin for the Dravidians. The Dravidians live in South India. The Dravidian ethnic group includes the Tamil, Kurukh,Malayalam, Kananda (Kanarese), Tulu, Telugu and etc. Some researchers due to the genetic relationship between the Dravidians and Niger-Congo speaking groups they call the Indians the Sudroid (Indo-African) Race (RaceandHistory,2006).
Dravidian languages are predominately spoken in southern India and Sri Lanka. There are around 125 million Dravidian speakers. These languages are genetically related to African languages. The Dravidians are remnants of the ancient Black population who occupied most of ancient Asia and Europe.
Linguistic Evidence
1.1 Many scholars have recognized the linguistic unity of Black African (BA) and Dravidian (Dr.) languages. These affinities are found not only in the modern African languages but also that of ancient Egypt. These scholars have made it clear that lexical, morphological and phonetic unity exist between African languages in West and North Africa as well as the Bantu group.
1.2 K.P. Arvaanan (1976) has noted that there are ten common elements shared by BA languages and the Dr. group. They are (1) simple set of five basic vowels with short-long consonants;(2) vowel harmony; (3) absence of initial clusters of consonants; (4) abundance of geminated consonants; (5) distinction of inclusive and exclusive pronouns in first person plural; (6) absence of degrees of comparison for adjectives and adverbs as distinct morphological categories; (7) consonant alternation on nominal increments noticed by different classes; (8)distinction of completed action among verbal paradigms as against specific tense distinction;(9) two separate sets of paradigms for declarative and negative forms of verbs; and (l0) use of reduplication for emphasis.
1.3 There has been a long development in the recognition of the linguistic unity of African and Dravidian languages. The first scholar to document this fact was the French linguist L. Homburger (1950,1951,1957,1964). Prof. Homburger who is best known for her research into African languages was convinced that the Dravidian languages explained the morphology of the Senegalese group particularly the Serere, Fulani group. She was also convinced that the kinship existed between Kannanda and the Bantu languages, and Telugu and the Mande group. Dr. L. Homburger is credited with the discovery for the first time of phonetic, morphological and lexical parallels between Bantu and Dravidians
1.6 By the 1970's numerous scholars had moved their investigation into links between Dr. and BA languages on into the Senegambia region. Such scholars as Cheikh T. N'Diaye (1972) a Senegalese linguist, and U.P. Upadhyaya (1973) of India , have proved conclusively Dr. Homburger's theory of unity between the Dravidian and the Senegalese languages.
1.7 C.T. N'Diaye, who studied Tamil in India, has identified nearly 500 cognates of Dravidian and the Senegalese languages. Upadhyaya (1973) after field work in Senegal discovered around 509 Dravidian and Senegambian words that show full or slight correspondence.
1.8 As a result of the linguistic evidence the Congolese linguist Th. Obenga suggested that there was an Indo-African group of related languages. To prove this point we will discuss the numerous examples of phonetic, morphological and lexical parallels between the Dravidian group: Tamil (Ta.), Malayalam (Mal.), Kannanda/Kanarese (Ka.), Tulu (Tu.), Kui-Gondi, Telugu (Tel.) and Brahui; and Black African languages: Manding (Man.),Egyptian (E.), and Senegalese (Sn.) _________________________________________________________________
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COMMON INDO-AFRICAN TERMS
ENGLISH DRAVIDIAN SENEGALESE MANDING MOTHER AMMA AMA,MEEN MA FATHER APPAN,ABBA AMPA,BAABA BA PREGNANCY BASARU BIIR BARA SKIN URI NGURU,GURI GURU BLOOD NETTARU DERET DYERI KING MANNAN MAANSA,OMAAD MANSA GRAND BIIRA BUUR BA SALIVA TUPPAL TUUDDE TU CULTIVATE BEY ,MBEY BE BOAT KULAM GAAL KULU FEATHER SOOGE SIIGE SI, SIGI MOUNTAIN KUNRU TUUD KURU ROCK KALLU XEER KULU STREAM KOLLI KAL KOLI
6.1 Dravidian and Senegalese. Cheikh T. N'Diaye (1972) and U.P. Upadhyaya (1976) have firmly established the linguistic unity of the Dravidian and Senegalese languages. They present grammatical, morphological, phonetic and lexical parallels to prove their point.
6.2 In the Dravidian and Senegalese languages there is a tendency for the appearance of open syllables and the avoidance of non-identical consonant clusters. Accent is usually found on the initial syllable of a word in both these groups. Upadhyaya (1976) has recognized that there are many medial geminated consonants in Dravidian and Senegalese. Due to their preference for open syllables final consonants are rare in these languages.
6.3 There are numerous parallel participle and abstract noun suffixes in Dravidian and Senegalese. For example, the past participle in Fulani (F) -o, and oowo the agent formative, corresponds to Dravidian -a, -aya, e.g., F. windudo 'written', windoowo 'writer'.
6.4 The Wolof (W) -aay and Dyolo ay , abstract noun formative corresponds to Dravidian ay, W. baax 'good', baaxaay 'goodness'; Dr. apala 'friend', bapalay 'friendship'; Dr. hiri 'big', hirime 'greatness', and nal 'good', nanmay 'goodness'.
6.5 There is also analogy in the Wolof abstract noun formative suffix -it, -itt, and Dravidian ita, ta, e.g., W. dog 'to cut', dogit 'sharpness'; Dr. hari 'to cut', hanita 'sharp-ness'.
6.6 The Dravidian and Senegalese languages use reduplication of the bases to emphasize or modify the sense of the word, e.g., D. fan 'more', fanfan 'very much'; Dr. beega 'quick', beega 'very quick'.
6.7 Dravidian and Senegalese cognates.
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English Senegalese Dravidian body W. yaram uru head D. fuko,xoox kukk hair W. kawar kavaram 'shoot' eye D. kil kan, khan mouth D. butum baayi, vaay lip W. tun,F. tondu tuti heart W. xol,S. xoor karalu pup W. kuti kutti sheep W. xar 'ram' cow W. nag naku hoe W. konki bronze W. xanjar xancara blacksmith W. kamara skin dol tool mother W. yaay aayi child D. kunil kunnu, kuuci ghee o-new ney
Above we provided linguistic examples from many different African Supersets (Families) including the Mande and Niger-Congo groups to prove the analogy between Dravidian and Black African languages. The evidence is clear that the Dravidian and Black African languages should be classed in a family called Indo-African as suggested by Th. Obenga. This data further supports the archaeological evidence accumulated by Dr. B.B Lal (1963) which proved that the Dravidians originated in the Fertile African Crescent.
The major grain exploited by Saharan populations was rice ,the yam and pennisetum. McIntosh and McIntosh (1988) has shown that the principal domesticate in the southern Sahara was bulrush millet. There has been considerable debate concerning the transport of African millets to India. Weber (1998) believes that African millets may have come to India by way of Arabia. Wigboldus (1996) on the other hand argues that African millets may have arrived from Africa via the Indian Ocean in Harappan times.
Both of these theories involve the transport of African millets from a country bordering on the Indian Ocean. Yet, Weber (1998) and Wigboldus (1996) were surprised to discover that African millets and bicolor sorghum , did not reach many East African countries until millennia after they had been exploited as a major subsistence crop at Harappan and Gujarat sites.
This failure to correlate the archaeological evidence of African millets in countries bordering on the Indian Ocean, and the antiquity of African millets in India suggest that African millets such as Pennisetum and Sorghum must have come to India from another part of Africa. To test this hypothesis we will compare Dravidian and African terms for millet.
Winters (1985) has suggested that the Proto-Dravidians formerly lived in the Sahara. This is an interesting theory, because it is in the Sahara that the earliest archaeological pennisetum has been found.
Millet impressions have been found on Mande ceramics from both Karkarchinkat in the Tilemsi Valley of Mali, and Dar Tichitt in Mauritania between 4000 and 3000 BP. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1983a,1988; Winters 1986b; Andah 1981)
In conclusion, the Ounanian tradition began around 10kya [2-3]. The population associated with this civilization was probably Niger-Congo speakers.
The Niger-Congo speakers originated in the Saharan Highlands and early migrated into the Sudan[4,9,28]. Around the time we see the development of the Ounanian culture in North Africa, we see the spread of the Saharan-Sudanese ceramic style into the Sahara [5,9, 12,28] by Niger Congo speakers.
The linguistic and anthropological data make it clear that the Dravidian speakers were part of the C-Group people who formed the backbone of the Niger-Congo speakers. It indicates that the Dravidians took their red-and-black pottery with them from Africa to India, along with the cultivation of millet.
Given the archaeological evidence for millets in the Sahara, leads to the corollary theory that if the Dravidians originated in Africa, they would share analogous terms for millet with African groups that formerly lived in the Sahara. The linguistic and anthropological data make it clear that the Dravidian speaking people were part of the C-Group people who formed the backbone of the Niger-Congo speakers. It indicates that the Dravidians took there red-and-black pottery with them from Africa to India, and the cultivation of millet. The evidence makes it clear that the genetic evidence indicating a Holocene migration to India for the Dravidian speaking people is wrong. The Dravidian people given the evidence for the first cultivation of millet and red-and-black pottery is firmly dated and put these cultural elements in the Neolithic. The evidence makes it clear that genetic evidence can not be used to effectively document historic population movements.
. K.P. Aravanan, former Vice-Chancellor of Manonmaniyam Sundaranar University
Dravidian speaking people recognize their African heritage. See:
Aravanan KP. 1976. ''Physical and cultural similarities between Dravidians and Africans''. Journal of Tamil Studies 10:23–27;
Aravanan KP. 1979. "Notable negroid elements in Dravidian India". J Tamil Studies 20–45.
Aravanan KP. 1980. Dravidians and Africans, Madras.
U. P. Upadhyaya and S.P. Upadhyaya
1. 'Dravidian and Negro-African', U.P.Upadhyaya, Intnl. J. of Dravidian Linguisitsics 5:1 (1976) 32-64
2. U. P.Upadhyaya & S.P.Upadhyaya, 'Affinites ethno-linguistiques entre Dravidiens et les Negro-Africain' , Bull. IFAN , no.1 (1976) pp.127-157
3. U. P. Upadhyaya & S.P. Upadhyaya, 'Les liens entre Kerala et l"Afrique tels qu'ils resosortent des survivances culturelles et linguistiques', Bulletin de L'IFAN , no.1 .
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3) what place in Africa does Dravidian language come from?
They lived in an area from Chad to the Nile Valley.
a) What particular language in that region is Dravidian, if not most related African language that Dravidian emerges from?
The Paleo-African hunters quickly learned the habits of wild sheep and goats. As a result of this hunting experience and the shock of the short arid period after 8500 BC, Paleo-Africans began to domesticate goat/sheep to insure a reliable source of food. By 6000 BP the inhabitants of Tadrart Acacus were reliant on sheep and goats (Barich 1985).
The first domesticated goats came from North Africa. This was the screw horn goat common to Algeria, where it may have been deposited in Neolithic times. We certainly see goat/sheep domestication moving eastward: Tadrart Acacus (Camps 1974), Tassili-n-Ajjer , Mali (McIntosh & McIntosh 1988), Niger (Roset 1983) and the Sudan. Barker (1989) has argued that sheep and goats increased in importance over cattle because of their adaptation to desiccation.
The linguistic evidence indicates that ovicaprids were domesticated before the Proto-Saharan people migrated out of the Sahara into the Nile Valley, Europe and Asia. As a result we have proto-terms for sheep going back to Proto-Saharan times.
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. The Egyptian terms for sheep,ram are ř zr #, or ř sr # . In the terms for sheep we find either the consonant /s/ or /z/ before the consonant /r/, e.g., s>řa/e/i#________r. This corresponds to many other African terms for sheep, ram:
Language….Sheep, Ram Egyptian sr, zr Wolof xar Coptic sro Bisa sir Kouy siri Lebir sir Amo zara Bobofing se-ge,sege Toma seree Malinke sara Busa sa Bambara sarha,saga Koro isor Boko sa Bir sir Azer sege 'goat' Diola sarha
There is phonological contrast between s =/= z. We find both ř sr # and ř zr # for sheep. Here we have s>z/V_______(V)r. The proto- Niger-Congo term for ram,sheep was probably *sär / *zär.
As a result, I can not explain how Mboli was able to reconstruct the Negro-Egyptian term *(w.)xiŋʷ ‘ram’. The vocabulary items above make it evident that there was no aspirated /ŋʷ/ in Egyptian sr and Coptic sro terms for ‘ram’. It appears to me that Mboli said the NE term for ‘ram’ was *(w.)xiŋʷ to make it conform to PIE *h2gʰʷno- , or *h3gʰʷno-. The interesting fact about the antiquity of the term for ‘ram’ among NE speakers is the fact the same term appears in Dravidian and Sumerian. .
. It is interesting to note that the Bantu probably did not domesticate sheep goats as early as the Egyptians, Mande and Atlantic speakers. The Bantu term for ram,sheep was -buzi and -budi> mbuzi and mbudi.
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@Clyde Winters kumarinadu* is described by some is a land mass connecting Africa to south India. Do you believe that to be a fact or just possibility?
*including the idea that humans lived on it at the time
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Phylogenetically the Niger-Congo mtDNA haplogroups include L1,L2,L3, U5, L3(M,N). The y-Chromosome haplotypes associated with the NC population were A,B, E1b1a, E1b1b, E2, E3a and R1.
What are the Phylogenetics of Dravidians in India?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: @Clyde Winters kumarinadu* is described by some is a land mass connecting Africa to south India. Do you believe that to be a fact or just possibility?
*including the idea that humans lived on it at the time
.
. Yes.Kumarinadu was the Great Dravidian Empire in the Indian Ocean
In ancient times there was a large Island the Indian Ocean called Kumarinadu. Kamarinadu or Kumari-Kandam formerly existed as a large Island in the India ocean which connected India with East Africa. The name "Kumari Kandam" first appear in Kanda Puranam, a 15th century Tamil version of the Skanda Purana, written by Kachiappa Sivacharyara (1350-1420). Some researchers claim that Kumari Kandam is actually a derivative of the Sanskrit words "Kumarika Khanda".
In 1903, V.G. Suryanarayana Sastri first used the term "Kumarinatu" (or "Kumari Nadu", meaning "Kumari territory") in his work Tamil Moliyin Varalaru (History of the Tamil language). The term Kumari Kandam ("Kumari continent") was first used to describe Lemuria in the 1930s.
This landmass is mentioned in the Silappadikaram, which said that Kamarinadu was made up of seven nadus or regions. The Dravdian scholars Adiyarkunallar and Nachinaar wrote about the ancient principalities of Tamilaham, which existed on Kamarinadu.
Kumarinadu was ruled by the Pandyans/Pandians at Madurai before it sunk beneath the sea. The greatest king of Kumarinadu was Sengoon. According to Dravidian scholars tha Pandyans worshipped the goddess Kumari Amman. This Aman, probably corresponds to the ancient god Amon of the Kushites. The Kalittokai 104, makes it clear that after the Pandyans were forced to migrate off their Island home into South India, “to compensate for the area lost to the great waves of the sea, King Pandia without tiresome moved to the other countries and won them. Removing the emblems of tiger (Cholas) and bow (Cheras) he, in their place inscribed his reputed emblem fish (Pandia’s) and valiantly made his enemies bow to him”.
The mention of the fish emblem indicates the African origin of the Pandyans. The Proto-Saharans claimed that their great ancestor was Ma and that they belonged to the Ma (fish) clan. Fish tails were a common feature of the Egyptians, Elamites, Sumerians and Dravidians.
The common god of the fish cult was the man-fish (of Eridu) in Mesopotamia and Syria , and the ithyphallic forms of Min, a proto-type of Amon (Amman) in Egypt, the goddess Minaaksi of Madura, Amma of the Dogon, the goddess of the fish eyes, the Malabar fish bearer of Maana ; and the sacred fishes of the Maapilla of the West coast of the Dekkan. At ancient Adulis, the Greeks claimed that the fish worshippers were called Icthyophagi or Poseidon.
In fact the first kings of these people used the consonants MNS, in the term used for king: Menes, King Aha of Egypt, Mannan of the Dravidians, and the Mansa of the Mande speaking people. The descendants of Ma, include this name in their ethnonyms: Mande= “the children of Ma”. And in Kannada, Tlugu and Tulu, the word Mandi= “people”.
The Pandyans who probably spoke Malayalam, were worshippers of Posidon or Potidan of the Greeks. Just as the Kalittokai, mentioned that the totem of Pandia was the Fish, we find that Africans in areas ajoining the former lands associated with Kumarinadu also worshipped the Fish. As a result in ancient times Nubia and modern Ethiopia was called Poseidonia due to their worship of Poseidon the god of the sea and the mountains.
The major god worshipped by the Pandyans and East Africans is Murugan, the god of the mountains. This mountain god of the Dravidians: Murugan, has the same name among 25 east African ethnic groups.
The Greek god Posidon of the East Africans parallels the Dravidian god Siva. The god Siva is sometimes referred to as the “Great Fish” and represented by Fish signs. In addition, throughout Tamilnadu, tridents are associated with temples dedicated to the worship of Siva. The trident was also associated with Siva.
The final Dravidian speaking people to enter South India were the Tamil. The Tamil, who were early Kings of Shang China, were forced out of China by the Zhou dynast and other contemporary mongoloid groups, across Southeast Asia and Tibet into India. These people defeated the Pandyans , Cholas and Cheras and became the dominant group in South India.
In Summary , Dravidian literature makes it clear that the Dravidian people came to South India from the North, South and East. These people took away the South from the Naga (ancient Ethio[pians), who along with the Dravidians worshipped the gods Amon and Murugan. Moreover, it was the Ethiopians who probably introduced Sanskrit writing to the Indians. It is due to this history of Dravidian speaking people that explains the close, genetic unity between the language and cultures of the people.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Phylogenetically the Niger-Congo mtDNA haplogroups include L1,L2,L3, U5, L3(M,N). The y-Chromosome haplotypes associated with the NC population were A,B, E1b1a, E1b1b, E2, E3a and R1.
What are the Phylogenetics of Dravidians in India?
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This is a Veddoid or Australoid India. They were the first Blacks to settle india , before the Munda.
Aravaanan (1980) has written extensively on the African and Dravidian relations. He has illustrated that the Africans and Dravidian share many physical similarities including the dolichocephalic indexes (Aravaanan 1980,pp.62-263; Raceand History.com,2006), platyrrhine nasal index (Aravaanan 1980,pp.25-27), stature (31-32) and blood type (Aravaanan 1980,34-35; RaceandHistory.com,2006). Aravaanan (1980,p.40) also presented much evidence for analogous African and Dravidian cultural features including the chipping of incisor teeth and the use of the lost wax process to make bronze works of arts (Aravaanan 1980,p.41).
Reference:
Aravanan KP. 1980. Dravidians and Africans, Madras.
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