posted
Just a correction, but the base of ancient Egyptian language is Afrasian in general and NOT Cushitic. Cushitic is merely a branch of Afrasian just like Egyptian. The Beja language To-Bedawi was once classified as Cushitic, but linguists now acknowledge it is separate and closely closer related to Egyptian than Cushitic languages however some features do bear similarities to northern Cushitic languages like Agaw.
Another main point to get across is that the ancient Egyptians were not one single people but various groups that inhabited the Nile Delta, Nile Valley, Western deserts and Eastern deserts. These four regions show variances. That a Beja-like people is responsible for predynastic culture is nothing new or surprising.
Posts: 26318 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Beja probably do have a very close ethnic connection to the ancient Egyptians, but Djehuti is right, the people who would become the Egyptians came from many different African peoples. In fact Sundjata thinks that the predynastic Badarians were Nilo-Saharans rather than Afrasians.
BTW, while "Afrasian" is a step above "Afroasiatic", I still think it should be renamed. I propose "Ethiosudanic" (since the phylum is believed to have originated on the Sudanese to Ethiopian coastline).
Posts: 7100 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Personally I like the name Afro-Erythrean or Erythrean better. By the way, how can we even know what language phylum the Badarians or any other predynastic group spoke? Both Nilo-Saharan and Afrasian speakers cohabited the same areas during that time.
Posts: 26318 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: By the way, how can we even know what language phylum the Badarians or any other predynastic group spoke?
Ask Sundjata, but I guess he bases this on the semi-nomadic cattle pastoral lifestyle the Badarians apparently had.
Posts: 7100 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
While I don't recall finalizing that as my official opinion, I do remember considering that to be a distinct possibility based on several factors, namely the fact that Ehret's (2010) loan word table for Nilo-saharan items borrowed into Egyptian, seem to all center on the Neolithic industries that the Badarians pioneered, namely animal husbandry. I also considered the dates he gave for when these loan words were introduced and the geographic distribution of Nilo-saharan speakers west of the Nile. What Truthcentric mentions is also a consideration. I'd more cautiously say that either the Badarians were Nilo-Saharan-speakers or they were among the first to incorporate Nilo-Saharan agricultural terms into their (presumably Afrasan) lexicon.
I also think Ancient Egyptian was probably a lingua franca based on Ehret's notes concerning evidence of intense bilingualism around this time in the lower Nile valley (among other considerations like the tale of Sinuhe and Clyde's observation of the use of different "cursive" scripts).. the only thing that we can be sure about is that the Naqadans were definitely Egyptian-speakers and if the Qustul incense burner truly depicts proto-hieroglyphs, we can be sure that at least a segment of the A-group were Egyptian-speakers as well.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: I also think Ancient Egyptian was probably a lingua franca based on Ehret's notes concerning evidence of intense bilingualism around this time in the lower Nile valley (among other considerations like the tale of Sinuhe and Clyde's observation of the use of different "cursive" scripts)
I myself was wondering whether ancient Egyptian was only the official language (a lingua franca as you describe) instead of a vernacular language spoken universally by the Egyptian population. For all we know, some Egyptians well into the dynastic period may have been native Nilo-Saharan-speakers who only wrote in Afrasian but didn't necessarily speak it in private.
Come to think of it, the Egyptians' own name for their written language translates to "Language of the Gods", which implies a belief that the gods spoke a different language from ordinary Egyptian mortals.
Posts: 7100 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
No one is taking into account the fact that the Egyptian overal bodybuld alligns them equadistantly to Sudanese groups as to Pygmies?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
What is the "Beja type". Can you lay this out scientifically?
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, "Cushitic speakers type" doesn't sound any better, because it is not the "scientific" response that I pressed for. And the location of Pwnt is far from being certain.
BTW, where do the AE claim to have come from Pwnt?
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Personally I like the name Afro-Erythrean or Erythrean better. By the way, how can we even know what language phylum the Badarians or any other predynastic group spoke? Both Nilo-Saharan and Afrasian speakers cohabited the same areas during that time.
I Actually think the term "Nilo Saharan" fits best. When I first learned these languages were related years ago I assumed this was the term given to them before I learned this was not the linguistic term for the phylum. It also removes "Asia" from the picture.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
Also many people claim that The Name of Punt, lends to people thinking that Egyptians came from there meaning "Land of ancestors", or as Aboubacry Moussa LAM's translated it, translated "Original earth/home"
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: No one is taking into account the fact that the Egyptian overal bodybuld alligns them equadistantly to Sudanese groups as to Pygmies?
I guess its too much of a mind-phuk to ponder on what could be the implications for this.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
What exactly do you mean by "body build" do you mean stature or body proportions?? Explain.
Posts: 26318 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Going of the top, stature wasn't a factor in the construction of the plot. Its based on measurements taken from all four limb segments, as well as the trunk. Trenton is the author and the name of the study is,
Post cranial evidence of cold adaptation in Neanderthals.Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: While I don't recall finalizing that as my official opinion, I do remember considering that to be a distinct possibility based on several factors, namely the fact that Ehret's (2010) loan word table for Nilo-saharan items borrowed into Egyptian, seem to all center on the Neolithic industries that the Badarians pioneered, namely animal husbandry. I also considered the dates he gave for when these loan words were introduced and the geographic distribution of Nilo-saharan speakers west of the Nile. What Truthcentric mentions is also a consideration. I'd more cautiously say that either the Badarians were Nilo-Saharan-speakers or they were among the first to incorporate Nilo-Saharan agricultural terms into their (presumably Afrasan) lexicon.
Interesting. I myself have entertained this idea myself. The modern distribution and frequency of Nilo-Saharan languages point to the southern parts of the Western desert, whereas Afrasian (Berber speakers) are associated with the northern areas of the Western desert. Certainly the ranges for both groups were far more extensive during the green Sahara times. I agree the Badarians were either Nilo-Saharans who assimilated into an Afrasian majority OR Afrasians who adopted Nilotic words and customs. What of the custom of mummification associated with the Badarians? I don't know of any studies linking this practice with Nilo-Saharans (not to discount the possibility of this) but most associate the practice with early perhaps proto-Berbers per Libya and Uan Muhuggiag. And what of the Chadic loan words discovered in the Egyptian language as well?
quote:I also think Ancient Egyptian was probably a lingua franca based on Ehret's notes concerning evidence of intense bilingualism around this time in the lower Nile valley (among other considerations like the tale of Sinuhe and Clyde's observation of the use of different "cursive" scripts).. the only thing that we can be sure about is that the Naqadans were definitely Egyptian-speakers and if the Qustul incense burner truly depicts proto-hieroglyphs, we can be sure that at least a segment of the A-group were Egyptian-speakers as well.
I believe the Mdu-Neter (Ancient Egyptian) language itself as we understand it to be a kind of langua-franca. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again. Ancient Egyptian is classified as being of its own sub-phylum within Afrisian, but that doesn't mean there were no other languages comprising this group, OR that such a language did not consist of any variation or dialects. When you look at Indo-European for example, Greek is considered its own sub-branch even though ancient records show 4 closely intelligible dialects. Even the Albanian language is considered to be descended from that of the ancient Illyrians is classified a its own subcategory within I-E. Scholars think there were more dialects even languages for these groups but these were lost. Afrasian is much older than I-E, and I think even greater diversity did not survive either. Per the 'Tales of Sinhue' either the Upper Egyptians and Delta Egyptians were speaking unintelligible dialects of the same language OR different languages of the same group altogether. This is no different today with say Luzon Filipinos in the north not being able to understand Mindinao Filipinos in the south and vice-versa or northern Mexicans having difficulty understanding the Spanish dialects of southern Mexicans, or northern and southern Chinese having unintelligible comprehension. The standard hieroglyphs like Chinese writing may express the same ideas and words, but the words themselves may be expressed or pronounced differently. This may also explain the differences in cursive scripts.
Posts: 26318 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Going of the top, stature wasn't a factor in the construction of the plot. Its based on measurements taken from all four limb segments, as well as the trunk. Trenton is the author and the name of the study is,
Post cranial evidence of cold adaptation in Neanderthals.
Okay so the study appears to be about cold adaptation in Neanderthals, and??...
By the way, that study was discussed several times before.
Just for humor, can you explain what this diagram is suppose to represent??
^^ What do the x and y axes represent? I take it 'Egy' means Egyptian and 'Pyg' means Pygmy. They appear to share the same x coordinates but differing y coordinates with Egyptians being higher up. But then Egyptians seem to be in the middle of a -y/x slope between 'Sud' and 'Nub'. What do these latter two abbreviations represent??
In trying to answer my questions above, can you explain this related chart from stringer on the same topic of neanderthal cold adaptation vs. later human tropical adaptation??
^ Notice Egyptians here clearly cluster close to Pygmies first and then 'American Blacks'. What do you think this means?
Posts: 26318 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: No, "Cushitic speakers type" doesn't sound any better, because it is not the "scientific" response that I pressed for...
Of course. What KoKaKoLa hasn't realized is that 'Cushitic' is a language group and therefore should NOT be used to describe a physical 'type'.
By the way KoKaKoLa, as I said the native Beja language To-Bedawi now recognized as being separate from the Cushitic group. It may show some similarities in vocabulary with northern Cushitic languages like Agaw but grammatically it is much closer to Berber and Egyptian. Even the vocabulary is closer to Egyptian than Cushitic.
Posts: 26318 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
Also many people claim that The Name of Punt, lends to people thinking that Egyptians came from there meaning "Land of ancestors", or as Aboubacry Moussa LAM's translated it, translated "Original earth/home"
Peace
Well, actually I had a primary Kemetic/Egyptic text in mind, which supposedly professes that the AE came from Pwnt. I know about AE reverential attitudes towards "Ta-Neter" ~ the "land of God" [some have read this as the "Divine Land"], and word about this being reference to territory "south of Kemet". However beyond that, and short of speculations in some quarters, I haven't seen any concrete demonstration of the precise location of the ancestral land as it was understood by the AE themselves.
I will give you props though, for having some gut to give some form of an answer, which is much more than I can say for the topic opener.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: No, "Cushitic speakers type" doesn't sound any better, because it is not the "scientific" response that I pressed for...
Of course. What KoKaKoLa hasn't realized is that 'Cushitic' is a language group and therefore should NOT be used to describe a physical 'type'.
By the way KoKaKoLa, as I said the native Beja language To-Bedawi now recognized as being separate from the Cushitic group. It may show some similarities in vocabulary with northern Cushitic languages like Agaw but grammatically it is much closer to Berber and Egyptian. Even the vocabulary is closer to Egyptian than Cushitic.
The Egyptian/Beja connection is definitely there. Toby Wilkinson and others are on to something in finding the roots to Egyptian civilization in the Eastern desert (Beja territory). No surprise Kendall and the people at the Oriental Institute think Qustul comes from the same tradition.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
Just to throw a Wrench into some peoples arguements, Were There Pygmies in The Horn region of East Africa?
I'm thinking you think that the Horn was where the Egyptians pointed to as saying they came from.
One thing we can safely say, is that Punt was not from Arabia, Punt was probably in the Area closest to either Sudan, Chad, Kenya, Uganda since this is where we hear Pygmies were Living in Africa back in those days. To make statements that Punt was found in the Somali regions, can also be probable, but we really never hear of Pygmies coming from that part of East Africa.
Don't take this as disrespect Kola, I just want to pick your brain and see if you have any substance to your ideas.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Going of the top, stature wasn't a factor in the construction of the plot. Its based on measurements taken from all four limb segments, as well as the trunk. Trenton is the author and the name of the study is, Post cranial evidence of cold adaptation in Neanderthals.
Okay so the study appears to be about cold adaptation in Neanderthals, and??... By the way, that study was discussed several times before.
It would help if you'd verbalize, what exactly you're debating, and what issue you have with what was said. Are you uncomfortable with the fact that they had characteristics in common with Pygmies?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Just for humor, can you explain what this diagram is suppose to represent?? ^^ What do the x and y axes represent? I take it 'Egy' means Egyptian and 'Pyg' means Pygmy. They appear to share the same x coordinates but differing y coordinates with Egyptians being higher up. But then Egyptians seem to be in the middle of a -y/x slope between 'Sud' and 'Nub'. What do these latter two abbreviations represent??
Not exactly sure what would be funny about that, but PC II is related to overall size. As is implied by my initial post, re: Equidistantly to Sudanese groups, the two flanking dots represent ''Nubians'' and ''Sudanese'', meaning Kushites.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Notice Egyptians here clearly cluster close to Pygmies first and then 'American Blacks'. What do you think this means?
I’m not sure whether Egyptians are closer to Pygmies than to American blacks on that chart. The chart obviously depicts crural index, what’s with it?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
Let me start off by saying that No one should kill themselves.
Moving on, What we know about AE(Ancient Egypt) is that there culture derived from East African AND the Sahara regions. We have the Black Mummy that showed the mummification process that Egypt is Known for. Unless you have proof that East Africans were mummifying, this shows that AE was linked to regions that are in the west African region of Africa.
We also have Pyramids from West Africa, Are there any in East Africa outside of Egypt and Sudan?
does not this statue from Yorubas remind you of the Bes images from Egypt?
^Bes
What can be safely said about AE is that they were a coming together of Saharan and Nilotic Africans.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Swenet wrote to Djehuti aka "Ping Pong Pepe":
quote: Are you uncomfortable with the fact that they had characteristics in common with Pygmies?
Yes this Djehuti creature who is obsessed with people he calls "black Africans" is very uncomfortable with the idea that pygmies and the Ancient Egyptians have commonalities. It disturbs his mythical intraAfrican racial hierarchy.
Djehuti is one of the leading closet racists on this site. His postings revolve around his sick fantasy of a racial hierarchy within Africa where people whom he has often called bantu, pygmies, subsaharans are at the bottom.
He has become quite upset with other posters when they have said that the Ancient Egyptians share commonnalities with each other outside of being Africans.
He has stated often that Africans of the northeast of the continent share little with the people he calls "subsaharans".
He has also become passionately enraged whenever other posters have said that slavery affected other Africans other than the people whom he calls "west" Africans.
No, "Cushitic speakers type" doesn't sound any better, because it is not the "scientific" response that I pressed for. And the location of Pwnt is far from being certain.
BTW, where do the AE claim to have come from Pwnt?
Didnt they call it Ta Netjer? Doesnt Ta Netjer means land of the Gods/Ancestors?
First of, how do you figure that "God" is interchangeable with "ancestors"?
Secondly, it should be read as "God", not "Gods"; the plural form of Neter is "Neteru"/"Neterou".
Thirdly, I have seen no evidence wherein the AE claim that they originated from Pwnt.
Fourthly, I haven't come across any AE text yet, that pointedly refers Pwnt as "Ta-Neter".
quote:
They imported Myhrr,Frankinscence, ivory and pigmies from there. Pnt was depicted with wild animals common to Africa.
Do pygmies live among the Beja?
quote: The puntites looked like the Ancient Egyptians. just like the Beja look like the Somalis and the Oromo..
Do you have any wall murals showing the "Beja" side by side with the AE? That would be the best way to tell if the AE saw it like you do.
quote: there was 2 ways to go there : road or boat (via the Red Sea)
this is obvious.
The Red Sea length spans Sudan all the way to Djibouti. It is the only other avenue to get to territories beyond Kush. This info doesn't make the precise location or extent of Pwnt "obvious".
So, do you think you are now up to the task of scientifically establishing your "Cushitic Speakers types"?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Ancient Egyptians WERE not related to Pigmies nor West Africans.
The REDDISH BROWNSKIN they have is common to CUSHITIC SPEAKERS. The Braids & AFROS they have is again common to Cushitic speakers.
i dont know what is going with you, but from their apparence, their culture & their language , they were clearly of cushitic speakers type.
I believe that Ancient Egyptian is a mixed language of the language of the Lower Egyptian who i suppose descent from the Natufians + Cushitic.
Pan africanists can kill themselves
You’re wrong. Egypt was a Pan-African civilization that included West Africans. In fact many of the sothern Nomes were probably made up of West African populations.
Inyotef 1
Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.
In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.
He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.
Homburger made it clear that the Fula language was related to the Egyptians of the 12th Dynasty. This is interesting because we find that at this time new rulers came to power in Egypt from the South. This period is often called the Middle Kingdom.
Many of these “southerners” probably included many people who later settled West Africa. As noted earlier the marker for the spread of the Niger-Congo speakers is the basanji dog. The hieroglyphic for "dog," in fact, as evidenced on a stele from the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, derives from the basenji. In just a few strokes, the engraver captures the key characteristics: pricked ears, curled tail and graceful carriage. It is probably no coincidence that the Basanji was see as the principal dog it probably represents the coming of power of the Niger-Congo speakers in ancient Egypt.
We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr
Tutsi Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"
Akan Akan - the name of a god Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
Fante Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)
Hausa Hosa - a singing god
Yoruba Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings Ouruba - Great God of soul
The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...
It would be quite interesting if these nomes were formerly prominent southern nomes who gained prominence once the Inyotefs came to power.
Between 2258 2052 BC civil war broke out among the nobles of Egypt. During this period of disunity there was much suffering in the land and many of the fine cultural developments of the Old Kingdoms were discarded or rarely practiced. This period of chaos is called the "First Intermediate Period". A person who lived during this hard time named Iperwer, wrote Great and humble say: "I wish I might die". Little children cry out: "I never should have been born". Also during this time Lower Egypt was invaded by Asian people who ruled there for a long time.
During this period of decline it was the Southerners who made it possible for the raise of Egypt back into a world power. These Southerners were called "Inyotefs", they lived around a city in Upper Egypt called "Thebes". Inyotef I founded the 11th Dynasty and made Thebes his capital.Inyotef declared himself king c 2125-2112 BC.
Inyotef I opposed Ankhtify of Heracleopolitan who he defeated. It was Inyotef who consolidated power in the south. Inyotef II (Wahankh) also fought the Heracleopolitans. He loved dogs especially the basenji.
Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph
I believe that some of the southern nomes led by the Inyotefs were composed of people who later migrated to West Africa after the Romans came to power. The Thebians were closely united with the Nubians.
Inyotef I was the father Mentuhotep I. Several of the wives of Mentuhotep II were Nubians. Under Mentuhotep, the delta chiefs were defeated and Egypt was united again into one country.
Mentuhotep
Under the Amenemhet I, of the Xllth dynasty the capital was moved form Thebes to Lisht near Memphis. This dynasty and those thereafter are called the Middle Kingdom.
MIDDLE KINGDOM
It took strong leadership for the Egyptians to re establish the greatness of Egypt and the establishment of safe and secure borders.
The rulers during the Middle Kingdom were mostly men from the military. They frequently made raids into foreign lands in search of booty. And for the first time in Egyptian history a permanent army was founded to protect Egypt and keep it strong.
Amon became the major God of the Egyptians during the Middle Period. Amon was recognized at this time as the God of all Gods. This Amon was also called Amma by the Proto Saharans.
It is interesting to note that the Mande and other West African people like the Dogon and Dravidians worshipped the god Amma.
The fact that Mande, Wolof and Fula are related to Egyptian is probably due to the fact that when the Inyotefs took over Egypt the ancestors of these groups live in southern Egypt/Upper Kush. This would explain 1) the relationship between the Fula and Egyptian language of the 12th Dynasty 2) the introduction of the worship of Aman to the Egyptians a god worshipped by many Niger-Congo speakers, 3) the presence of Egyptian gods for selected nomes bearing West African ethnonyms and 4)the love of the basenji dog by the 12th Dynasty Egyptians.
Egypt was indeed a Pan-African civilization
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Humongus levels of Haplogroup B (M-60) in Siwa, Northern and Southern Egyptian samples, as well as E-M2 and E1b1b1b (E-M81), none of which are particularly linked with Beja groups (or Somalis for that matter), shoot his case right out the sky.
The paternal markers that Egyptians share with Beja peoples, is mostly E-M78, which is shared with Somali's and Ethiopians as well, but guess what, it cannot show the link you set out to establish, because other groups, who don't particularly look like Beja peoples (eg, Masalit), carry it in high percentages as well.
The ethnocentric East Africans, who like to claim the Egyptians for themselves, just keep rearing their heads, but everytime they come, they get their butts spanked and find no academic support. Sorry kid, the ancestors of the Beja peoples were just another sister population of the Ancient Egyptians, nothing more, nothing less. Its nothing special about them neither.
posted
The Linguistic Methods of Chiekh Anta Diop By
Clyde Winters
Chiekh Anta Diop has contributed much to the Afrocentric social sciences. Here we discuss many of Diop's views on using the linguistic sciences to rediscover the ancient history of Blacks.
Chiekh Anta Diop has made important contributions to linguistic theory in relation to African historiography. Diop's work illustrates that it is important for scholars to maintain a focus on the historical and linguistic factors which define the "personnalitè culturelle africaine" (Diop 1991, 227).
Language is the sanctum sanctorum of Diop's Afrocentric historical method. The Diopian view of historiography combines the research of linguistics, history and psychology to interpret the cultural unity of African people. C. Anta Diop is the founder of modern Afrocentricism . Diop (1974,1991) laid the foundations for the Afrocentric idea in education. He laid these foundations using both the historical and anthropological/linguistic methods of research to explain the role of the Blacks in World History.
There are three components in the genetic model: 1) common Physical type, 2) common cultural patterns and 3) genetically related languages. (Winters 1989a) Diop over the years has brought to bear all three of these components in his illumination of Kemetic civilization. (Diop 1974,1977,1978,1991)
The opposition of many Eurocentric scholars to Afrocentric -ism results from white hostility to Diop's idea of a Black Egypt, and the view that Egyptians spoke an African ,rather than Afro-Asiatic language.
Recently, Eurocentric American scholars have alleged to write reviews of Diop's recent book (Diop 1991). Although these reviewers mention the work of Diop in their articles, they never review his work properly, because they lack the ability to understand the many disciplines that Diop has mastered.(Lefkowitz 1992; Baines 1991) For example Lefkowitz (1992) in The New Republic, summarizes Diop (1974) but never presents any evidence to dispute the findings of Diop. The most popular "review" of Diop (1991) was done by Baines (1991) review in the New York Times Book Review. In this "review" Baines (1991) claims that "...the evidence and reasoning used to support the arguments are often unsound".
Instead of addressing the evidence Diop (1991) presents of the African role in the rise of civilization that he alleges is "unsound", he is asking the reader to reject Diop's thesis without refutation of specific evidence presented by Diop of the African contributions to Science and Philosophy. Baines (l991) claims that Diop's Civilization or Barbarism, is not a work of originality, he fails to dispute any factual evidence presented by Diop. Baines (1991) wants the public to accept his general negative comments about Civilization or Barbarism ,based on the fact that he is an Egyptologist. This is not enough, in academia to refute a thesis one must present counter evidence that proves the falseness of a thesis not unsubstantiated rhetoric. We can not accept the negative views of Baines on faith alone. In the recovery of information concerning the African past, Diop promotes semantic anthropology, comparative linguistics and the study of Onomastics. The main thesis of Diop is that typonymy and ethnonymy of Africa point to a common cradle for Paleo-Africans in the Nile Valley (Diop 1978, 67).
Onomastics is the science of names. Diop has studied legends, placenames and religious cult terms to discover the unity of African civilization. Diop (1981, 86) observed that: "An undisputed linguistic relationship between two geographically remote groups of languages can be relevant for the study of migrations. A grammatical (or genetic) relationship if clear enough is never an accident".
As a result, Diop has used toponyms (place-names), anthroponyms (personal names) and ehthnonyms (names of ethnic groups/tribes) to explain the evidence of analogous ethnic (clan) names in West Africa and the Upper Nile (Diop 1991).
In Precolonial Black Africa, Diop used ethnonyms to chart the migrations of African people in West Africa. And in The African Origin of Civilization, Diop used analyses acculturaliste or typological analysis to study the origin and spread of African cultural features from the Nile Valley to West Africa through his examination of toponyms (Diop 1974, 182-183). In the Cultural Unity of Black Africa, Diop discussed the common totems and religious terms many African ethnic groups share (Diop 1978, 124).
LINGUISTIC TAXONOMY
This linguistic research has been based on linguistic classification or taxonomy. Linguistic taxonomy is the foundation upon which comparative and historical linguistic methods are based (Ruhlen 1994). Linguistic taxonomy is necessary for the identification of language families. The determination of language families give us the material to reconstruct the proto-language of a people and discover regular sound correspondences.
There are three major kinds of language classifications: genealogical, typological, and areal. A genealogical classifica-tion groups languages together into language families based on the shared features retained by languages since divergence from the common ancestor or proto-language. An areal classification groups languages into linguistic areas based on shared features acquired by a process of convergence arising from spatial proximity. A typological classification groups languages together into language types by the similarity in the appearance of the structure of languages without consideration of their historical origin and present, or past geographical distribution.
COMPARATIVE METHOD
Diop has used comparative and historical linguistics to illuminate the Unity of African civilization. Diop (1977, xxv) has noted that "The process for the evolution of African languages is clearly apparent; from a far we (have) the idea that Wolof is descendant by direct filiation to ancient Egyptian, but the Wolof, Egyptian and other African languages (are) derived from a common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common African or the Negro- African of L. Homburger or of Th. Obenga."
The comparative method is used by linguists to determine the relatedness of languages, and to reconstruct earlier language states. The comparative linguist has two major goals (1) trace the history of language families and reconstruct the mother language of each family, and (2) determine the forces which affect language. In general, comparative linguists are interested in determining phonetic laws, analogy/ correspondence and loan words. Diop is a strong supporter of the comparative method in the rediscovery of Paleo-African. The reconstruction of Paleo-African involves both reconstruction and recognition of regular sound correspondence. The goal of reconstruction is the discovery of the proto-language of African people is the recovery of Paleo-African:
(1) vowels and consonants
(2) specific Paleo-African words
(3) common grammatical elements; and
(4) common syntactic elements.
The comparative method is useful in the reconstruction of Proto-languages or Diop's Paleo-African. To reconstruct a proto-language the linguist must look for patterns of correspondences. Patterns of correspondence is the examination of terms which show uniformity. This uniformity leads to the inference that languages are related since uniformity of terms leads to the inference that languages are related since conformity of terms in two or more languages indicate they came from a common ancestor.
HISTORICAL LINGUISTICS
A person's language provides us with evidence of the elements of a group's culture. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about a group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language. Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologist make precise inferences about a groups culture elements.
Linguistic resemblances denote a historical relationship. This suggest that resemblances in fundamental vocabulary and culture terms can help one reconstruct the culture of the speakers of genetically related languages.
LINGUISTIC CONSTANCY
The rate at which languages change is variable. It appears that linguistic change is culture specific. Consequently, the social organization and political culture of a particular speech community can influence the speed at which languages change.
Based on the history of language change in Europe most linguists believe that the rate of change for all languages is both rapid and constant.(Diagne, 1981,p.238) The idea that all languages change rapidly is not valid for all the World's languages.
African languages change much slower than European languages. (Armstrong, 1962) For example, African vocabulary items collected by Arab explorers over a thousand years ago are analogous to contemporary lexical items.(Diagne,1981, p.239) In addition there are striking resemblances between the ancient Egyptian language and Coptic, and Pharonic Egyptian and African languages.(Diagne, 1981; Diop, 1977; Obenga, 1993)
The political stability of African political institutions has caused languages to change very slowly in Africa. Pawley and Ross (1993) argue that a sedentary life style may account for the conservative nature of a language.
African oral traditions and the eye witness accounts of travelers to Africa, make it clear that African empires although made up of diverse nationalities illustrated continuity. To accomodate the plural nature of African empires Africans developed a Federal system of government. (Niane , 1984) In fact we can not really describe ancient African state systems as empires, since this implies absolute rule or authority in a single individual. This political state of affairs rarely existed in ancient Africa, because in each African speech community local leadership was elected by the people within the community. (Diop, 1987) For example the Egyptians often appointed administrators over the conquered territories from among the conquered people. (Diop ,1991)
The continuity of many African languages may result from the steady state nature of African political systems, and long standing cultural stability since neolithic times. (Diop, 1991 ; Winters 1985) This cultural stability has affected the speed at which African languages change.
In Africa due to the relative stability of socio-political structures and settled life, there has not been enough pressure exerted on African societies as a whole and African speech communities in particular, to cause radical internal linguistic changes within most African languages. Permanent settlements led to a clearly defined system of inheritance and royal succession. These traits led to stability on both the social and political levels. This leads to the hypothesis that linguistic continuity exist in Africa due to the stability of African socio-political structures and cultural systems. This relative cultural stability has led African languages to change more slowly then European and Asian languages. Diop (1974) observed that:
First the evolution of languages, instead of moving everywhere at the same rate of speed seems linked to other factors; such as , the stability of social organizations or the opposite, social upheavals. Understandably in relatively stable societies man's language has changed less with the passage of time.(pp.153-154)
There is considerable evidence which supports the African continuity concept. Dr. Armstrong (1962) noted the linguistic continuity of African languages when he used glottochronology to test the rate of change in Yoruba. Comparing modern Yoruba words with a list of identical terms collected 130 years ago by Koelle , Dr. Armstrong found little if any internal or external changes in the terms. He concluded that:
I would have said that on this evidence African languages are changing with glacial slowness, but it seems to me that in a century a glacier would have changed a lot more than that. Perhaps it would be more in order to say that these languages are changing with geological slowness. (Armstrong, 1962, p.285).
Diop's theory of linguistic constancy recognizes the social role language plays in African language change. Language being a variable phenomena has as much to do with a speaker's society as with the language itself. Thus social organization can influence the rate of change within languages. Meillet (1926, 17) wrote that:
Since language is a social institution it follows that linguistics is a social science, and the only variable element to which one may appeal in order to account for a linguistic change is social change, of which language variations are but the consequences.
THE BLACK AFRICAN ORIGIN OF EGYPT
Diop has contributed much to African linguistics. He was a major proponent of the Dravidian-African relationship (Diop 1974, 116), and the African substratum in Indo-European languages in relationship to cacuminal sounds and terms for social organiza-tion and culture (1974, 115). Diop (1978, 113) also recognized that in relation to Arabic words, after the suppression of the first consonant, there is often an African root.
Diop's major linguistic effort has been the classification of Black African and Egyptian languages . Up until 1977 Diop'smajor area of interest were morphological and phonological similarities between Egyptian and Black African languages. Diop (1977, 77-84) explains many of his sound laws for the Egyptian-Black African connection.
In Parènte Génétique de l'Egyptien pharraonique et des Langues Négro Africaines (PGEPLNA), Diop explains in some detail his linguistic views in the introduction of this book. In PGEPLNA , Diop demonstrates the genetic relationship between ancient Egyptian and the languages of Black Africa. Diop provides thousands of cognate Wolof and Egyptian terms in support of his Black African-Egyptian linguistic relationship.
PALEO-AFRICAN
African languages are divided into Supersets (i.e., a family of genetically related languages, e.g., Niger-Congo) sets, and subsets. In the sets of African languages there are many parallels between phonological terms, eventhough there may be an arbitrary use of consonants which may have a similar sound. The reason for these changes is that when the speakers of Paleo-African languages separated, the various sets of languages underwent separate developments. As a result a /b/ sound in one language may be /p/ or /f/ in a sister language. For example, in African languages the word for father may be baba , pa or fa, while in the Dravidian languages we have appan to denote father. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about an ethnic group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language.
Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologists make precise inferences about a linguistic group's cultural elements.
BLACKS IN WEST ASIA
In PGEPLNA Diop makes clear his views on the role of African languages in the rise of other languages. Using archaeological evidence Diop makes it clear that the original West Asians: Elamites and Sumerians were of Black origin (1974, 1977, xxix-xxxvii).
Diop (1974, 1991) advocates the unity of Black Africans and Blacks in West Asia. Winters (1985,1989,1994) has elaborated on the linguistic affinity of African and West Asian languages.
This view is supported by linguistic evidence. For example these languages share demonstrative bases:
Proximate Distant Finite
Dravidian i a u
Manding i a u
Sumerian bi a
Wolof i a u
The speakers of West Asian and Black African languages also share basic culture items: Chief city,village black,burnt
Dravidian cira, ca uru kam
Elamite Salu
Sumerian Sar ur
Manding Sa furu kami,"charcoal'
Nubia sirgi mar
Egyptian Sr mer kemit
Paleo-African *sar *uru *kam
OBENGA
Obenga (1978) gives a phonetic analysis of Black African and Egyptian. He illustrates the genetic affinity of consonants within the Black African (BA) and Egyptian languages especially the occlusive bilateral sonorous, the occlusive nasal apico-dental /n/ and /m/ , the apico-alveolar /r/ and the radical proto-form sa: 'man, female, posterity' in Black Africa.
Language
Agaw asau, aso 'masculine
Sidama asu 'man'
Oromo asa id.
Caffino aso id.
Yoruba so 'produce'
Meroitic s' man
Fonge sunu id.
Bini eso 'someone'
Kikongo sa,se,si 'father'
Swahili (m)zee 'old person'
Egyptian sa 'man'
Manding si,se 'descendant,posterity,family'
Azer se 'individual, person'
Obenga (1978) also illustrated the unity between the verbs 'to come, to be, to arrive':
Language
Egyptian ii, ey Samo, Loma dye
Mbosi yaa Bisa gye
Sidama/Omo wa Wolof nyeu
Caffino wa Peul yah, yade
There is t =/= d, highlight the alternation patterns of many Paleo-African consonants including b =/= p, l =/= r ,and g =/= k.
The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:
Galla senyi
Malinke se , si
Sumerian se
Egyptian sen 'granary'
Kannanda cigur
Bozo sii
Bambara sii
Daba sisin
Somali sinni
Loma sii
Susu sansi
Oromo sanyi
Dime siimu
Egyptian ssr 'corn'
id. ssn 'lotus plant'
id. sm 'herb, plant'
id. isw 'weeds'
In conclusion, Diop has done much to encourage the African recovery of their history. His theories on linguistics has inspired many African scholars to explain and elaborate the African role in the history of Africa and the world. This has made his work important to our understanding of the role of Black people in History.
Here we have shown the methods Anta Diop has used to rediscover the long and great history of Africans in Africa and the world. This methods allow us to reconstruct the Paleo-African culture formerly practiced by Africans in Africa, Asia and the Americas.
It also shows that West Africans and Cushitic speakers share common terms for the principal items of culture because they were all part of the Pan-African Egytian civilization.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
Also many people claim that The Name of Punt, lends to people thinking that Egyptians came from there meaning "Land of ancestors", or as Aboubacry Moussa LAM's translated it, translated "Original earth/home"
Peace
Well, actually I had a primary Kemetic/Egyptic text in mind, which supposedly professes that the AE came from Pwnt. I know about AE reverential attitudes towards "Ta-Neter" ~ the "land of God" [some have read this as the "Divine Land"], and word about this being reference to territory "south of Kemet". However beyond that, and short of speculations in some quarters, I haven't seen any concrete demonstration of the precise location of the ancestral land as it was understood by the AE themselves.
I will give you props though, for having some gut to give some form of an answer, which is much more than I can say for the topic opener.
Most of the evidence that I've been able to look over points to an Eastern Sudanese, Eritrean, Northern Ethiopian location, for the Land of Punt.
Disputes over Punt's location have gone on for decades. Punt (pronounced Poont), archaeologists have said, was in Mozambique, or Somalia; or on the Sinai Peninsula or in Yemen, or somewhere in Western Asia where Israel, Lebanon and Syria now lie.
Narrowing the search at a recent meeting in Oakland of the American Research Center in Egypt three scientists announced with confidence they had ruled out all of those five locations, and there was no disagreement from the 300 archaeologists there.
The Land of Punt, the scientist said, must have existed in eastern North Africa - either in the region where Ethiopia and Eritrea confront each other, or east of the Upper Nile in a lowland area of eastern Sudan.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
The God Amman/Amma links many African groups and the Dravidian people of India who originated in Africa. This god was probably worshipped by Saharan people who probably created a great civilization in Middle Africa probably long before the rise of ancient Egypt.
The Dravidian god Amma(n) is associated with the ram god: Amun/Amon. In addition to Amman, being associated with goddesses, in DED 183 we find that Amman also means ‘uncle, wife’s father’ and etc.. This makes it clear that the term Amman was associated with both goddesses and honored—high respected men.
The earliest representation of the ram god appeared in the Sahara, the homeland of the Dravidians, Elamites, Sumerians, the Egyptians and other Black African groups. It was in the Sahara that we see the first example of the ram holding a disc or sphere which came to symbolize the Egyptian god Amon. These ancient people were called Kushites are associated with the Proto-Saharan cultures and the C-Group. Due to the association of Amon with the Kushites, the Priestess of Amon, had to be a Kushite.
Diop has made it clear that Amon was the god of Black Africa. Among the Dravidians Amon was called Amman. Mrs. T. Aravanan, made it clear that the Pandyan people of Kumarinadu worshipped the goddess Kumari Amman. Kumarinadu, according to tradition was ruled by the Pandians/ Pandyans. She says that Kumarinadu was situated south of present-day South India.
The Dravidian literary evidence indicate that Dravidians, probably speaking Tamil, invanded South India from Kumarinadu. In Kalittokai 104, we read “In order to compensate the area lost to the great waves of the sea, King Paandia without tiresome moved to the other countries and won them. Removing the emblems of tiger [Cholas] and bow [Cheras] he, in their places inscribed his reputed emblem fish [Pandias] and valiantly made his enemies bow to him”.
The mention of the “fish emblem” in the Kalittokai provides textual support to the African origin of the Dravidians. Many peoples in the Western Sahara claim that they are descendants of the Ma [Fish] Confederation or Mande clan. Thus we have the Mande people of West Africa, and the Dogon who claim descent from Mande. It is interesting to note that among the Kannanda, Telugu and Tulu the term : Mande or Mandi, denotes persons or people.
The leading tribes of that claim descent from Ma include the Dogon and Mande. Before the introduction of Islam, the Mande worshipped Athene or Neith and Amon. They called Neith, Nia and Amon was called N’ama.
The Dogon called Amon, Amma. Accoridng to the Dogon Amma descends from the sky and is a symbol of humidity and rain. The Dogon Amma, is analogous to KumariAmman of the Tamil.
Pandia association with the fish, associates these Tamils with other ancient Blacks descending from the Ma Clan. Fish tails, were a common feature of the Egyptians, Elamites, Sumerians and Proto-Dravidians. The common god of the Fish Clan was the manfish (of Eridu) in Mesopotamia and Syria and the ithyphallic forms of Min, proto-type of Amon in Egypt, the goddess Minaksi of Madura, the goddess of the fish eyes, the Malabar fish bearer of Mana and the sacred fishes of the Mapilla of the West coast of the Dekkan.The Dogon,claim they came from the great Nommo, who was represented by fish signs. The Kings of people descending from the Ma Confederation were called MNS, e,g., Menes or King Aha of Egypt, Mannan among the Dravidians and Mansa, among the Mande speaking people of West Africa.
The Greeks claim that the father of the goddess Neith, who was worshipped by many Black African groups was Poseidon or potidan ‘ he who gives to drink the wooded mountain’ [boat]. Since Neith or Athene is said to have been born in the Proto-Sahara beside Lake Tritonis, we can assume that the worship of Poseidon was common among the people of the Ma Confederation. The symbol of Poseidon was the trident.
Poseidon seems to relate to an aspect of the Dravidian god Siva. The god Siva is sometimes referred to as the “Great Fish’ and represented by Fish signs. Throughout Tamilnadu tridents are found in association to temples, and the god Siva.
Just as the Kalittokai mentioned that the totem of the Pandia was the fish, we find that Africans along the Indian Ocean, which would have been part of Kumarinadu, worshipped Poseidon.
The Greeks reported that the people from the eastern coast of Africa worshipped Poseidon. According to Strabo, Eudoxus of Cyzicus reported the people Ethiopia to Somalia and Nubia were Icthiyophage who worshipped Poseidon. They often referred to Ethiopia and Somalia as Poseidonia.
In conclusion, the ancient Dravidians belonged to the Ma Confederation, and the Dravidian term Amman can refer to goddesses and male figures. The leaders of this Confederation founded many ancient civilizations which had the Fish as their standard. The worship of Amman originated in the Sahara where the early worship of Poseidon probably also originated given the fact his daughter was Neith/Athene. The Pandia/Pandyans called their god KumariAmma(n), like other followers of the Ma Confederation.
Due to the relationship between Amma, and fishes and the sea, we find that at Kodikarai, there is a Dravidian custom that the ship crews worship Mariammon before they go out to sea.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Wally: The chronicling of the political unification of the various African ethnic groups and clans of the ancient Nile valley into a unified nation is clearly delineated in the Text/Tablet of Narmer:
The Front Side:
A) The first word is at the very top, inside the ideograph of the palace, and contains the name Narmer:
Nar(catfish) mer (chisel). And NO, it does not mean that he was a chiseling catfish! You can get Jan Assman's interpretation of the name in his book...
B) The figure to the right of the conquering king-wearing the white crown of Upper Egypt-, the one where Horus is astride and doing exactly what Diop suggests, as Assman points out, represents the conquest of the Delta or Lower Egypt.
C) The king's servant is identified as "Sashat-the goddess of writing, and I presume, the one who is chronicling all of this. (No, the sandal-bearer wasn't a servant god but merely a scribe.)
The people being subdued (compelled to unite) as well as the ones shown fleeing the land have Black African hairstyles, and many Egyptologists suggest that they represent the original Black African Anu ethnic rulers of the Two Lands.
D) the two figures below the "border" of Egypt represent the determinative "Kher" which means "fall, defeat, slaughter" and is preceded by another glyph which means "Uhan" or "overthrown, throw-down" (Coptic: Ouwdjn/Ouwgan)(also Sdjen).
The Back Side:
A) The first important word on this side is the word Tht;or Tjt; or Tet which means "to assemble" and is obviously referring to the assembled group of four figures bearing Black African totems, as Diop points out.
B) Above the slain enemies- I imagine those who opposed political unification - are the images of
1) a boat with its sails down, which means a journey down river
and
2) of Horus in front of an emblem which Assman interprets as meaning 'gate' - These conquerors would later be identified as the "Shemsu Hor" or the followers of Horus, the Mesnitu ('blacksmiths') and who later claimed that they were from the land of Punt (evidence of the existence of at least two ruling African ethnic groups; Anu and later, the Mesnitu)...
C) The next word, a very large version at that, of two creatures with the twisting long necks is "Kaes" or "Kasu" which means 'to bind or fetter,' Qes/Kes - restrain, bind
which I think indicates the obvious, that the union of the two lands was carried out through armed struggle.
(It has been suggested that the 'formal' union was firmly established by another warrior king, Aha. )
D) the last image is the one that confirms Diops assessment...
1) The bull breaking down the walled city's fortified wall and stomping the Asiatic represents the king. The word inside the wall "Abominable" (IE, "city of the abominables") is a term the Kememu used to describe the Asian or White peoples, especially.
It seems obvious that the Kememu did not regard these peoples as a legitimate part of their ethnic population. It's Kememu ideology...
ref: --The Mind of Egypt: History and Meaning in the Time of the Pharaohs by Jan Assmann, Andrew Jenkins (Translator) --The African Origin of Civilization by C.A. Diop --The Mdu Ntr (Budge, Gardiner, etc...)
▬ ▬ ▬
Fiopy (aka Pepi II) 6th Egyptian family dynasty king...
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Wally: A fractal is a pattern that repeats itself at different scales. It is ideal for modeling nature: a tree is a branch of a branch of a branch; mountains are peaks within peaks; clouds are puffs of puffs, and so on. But modern computer scientists aren't the only ones to use fractals: Africans have been using them for centuries to design textiles, sculptures, architecture, hairstyles and more.
Pyramids in Sudan - Egypt
Sudan - Gonder (Ethiopia) - Great Zimbabwe
Kerma city (Sudan) - Lunda houses (Congo) - Tigray (Ethiopia)
... [b]In the ancient Western Sudan (aka West Africa)- Songhai, Ghana...
West Africans lived in ancient Egypt. Egypt was a Pan-African civilization.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
Also many people claim that The Name of Punt, lends to people thinking that Egyptians came from there meaning "Land of ancestors", or as Aboubacry Moussa LAM's translated it, translated "Original earth/home"
Peace
Well, actually I had a primary Kemetic/Egyptic text in mind, which supposedly professes that the AE came from Pwnt. I know about AE reverential attitudes towards "Ta-Neter" ~ the "land of God" [some have read this as the "Divine Land"], and word about this being reference to territory "south of Kemet". However beyond that, and short of speculations in some quarters, I haven't seen any concrete demonstration of the precise location of the ancestral land as it was understood by the AE themselves.
I will give you props though, for having some gut to give some form of an answer, which is much more than I can say for the topic opener.
Most of the evidence that I've been able to look over points to an Eastern Sudanese, Eritrean, Northern Ethiopian location, for the Land of Punt.
Disputes over Punt's location have gone on for decades. Punt (pronounced Poont), archaeologists have said, was in Mozambique, or Somalia; or on the Sinai Peninsula or in Yemen, or somewhere in Western Asia where Israel, Lebanon and Syria now lie.
Narrowing the search at a recent meeting in Oakland of the American Research Center in Egypt three scientists announced with confidence they had ruled out all of those five locations, and there was no disagreement from the 300 archaeologists there.
The Land of Punt, the scientist said, must have existed in eastern North Africa - either in the region where Ethiopia and Eritrea confront each other, or east of the Upper Nile in a lowland area of eastern Sudan.
Check out my recent thread on the location of Pwnt.
^It can clearly be identified with particular polities in the Eritrean lowlands and southeastern Sudan. Yemen has NOT been ruled out either, yet Yemen in that sense wouldn't be mutually exclusive (culturally and demographically) from Eritrea since the latter is undeniably connected to Punt.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Going after easy targets, are you, KoKaKoLa? Why is it still taking you ages to deliver on simple material that I requested of you.
You are wrong about the Nagadans. They could not have been pastoralists; Dynastic Egypt was a sedentary agricultural society, not a "pastoralist" sedentary society.
Your constricted understanding of 'west Africans' tells me that you have never met 'west Africans' before. Why are you obsessed with 'west Africans' anyhow? They certainly more closely related to the Beja et al. than those Dravidians you are so excited about.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The Humongus levels of Haplogroup B (M-60) in Siwa, Northern and Southern Egyptian samples, as well as E-M2 and E1b1b1b (E-M81), none of which are particularly linked with Beja groups (or Somalis for that matter), shoot his case right out the sky.
The paternal markers that Egyptians share with Beja peoples, is mostly E-M78, which is shared with Somali's and Ethiopians as well, but guess what, it cannot show the link you set out to establish, because other groups, who don't particularly look like Beja peoples (eg, Masalit), carry it in high percentages as well.
The ethnocentric East Africans, who like to claim the Egyptians for themselves, just keep rearing their heads, but everytime they come, they get their butts spanked and find no academic support. Sorry kid, the ancestors of the Beja peoples were just another sister population of the Ancient Egyptians, nothing more, nothing less. Its nothing special about them neither.
Beja live in Egypt. Beja were in Egypt BEFORE Ancient Egypt and they are still there After Ancient Egypt. West Africans WERE NOT in Egypt. and NEVER settled. Modern Nubians and Egyptians DO NOT cluster with West Africans. West africans genes are almost inexistant among those populations.
West africans are mostly agriculturists. Agricultutrists tend to have a low migration rate. Naqadan were pastoralists. Pastoralism is common into East Africa NOT west africa
Question: what west african tribe wears Afros and Braids. and have a Reddish brown skintone of Dravidian type?
Yeah yeah, come back when you can bring something other to the table than your anecdotal examples about skin color, hairstyles and Pastoralism. Perhaps you don't understand the significance of what I've just said to you. Do you realize that haplogroup B is virtually negligible above the Sahara? Haplogroup B is particularly associated with Pygmies and Nilo-Saharan speakers, and numerous Modern Egyptian samples show it in substantial frequencies.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Haplogroup B is particularly associated with Pygmies and Nilo-Saharan speakers, and numerous Modern Egyptian samples show it in high frequencies.
Do you have a source for this? Because if you do it's a very intriguing finding.
Posts: 7100 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Truth take a look here, and for kokakola, M-60 in the first slide is Haplogroup B:
quote:Originally posted by astenb: All the charts are correct, the samples come from different studies in different areas DUMBASSS. Egyptians from Aswan will have different Y-DNA frequencies and phenotype from those for PORT SAID in the Sinai where that second sample was taken from.
White Nord - Note the high presence of Nilotic maker B-M60 (B2a1a) in Egypt. Now go to the Wikipedia article on Egyptian DNA or Haplgroup B and ask why it only shows 2% Haplogroup B in Egypt?
B2a1a @ 28% found in Northern Egyptians here too.
Why are dishonest Euroclown White nord people like you vandalizing articles to remove pertinent details on a populations connection to their southern neighbors? If you cant defeat it you deleted it.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic