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This koKakoLa chick? is a crackpot and not worthy of being taken seriously on any level. She has absolutely no regard for backing up her highly opinionated posts.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^BTW, I don't want to turn this into a back and fourth display. Initially I was (and still am to some extent) truly just confused by that statement.
I'm going to leave it at this:
I recall a study you recently posted making a similar argument for why they felt theír Gebel Ramlah sample wasn't a big factor in populating Egypt, based on dental features, so obviously, I'm not doing anything new here.
Note that the Gebel Ramlah population presumably didn't have as large teeth, as the Medjay population we're discussing, since the former population was obviously engaged in farming, and they were not THAT far removed from the Egyptian samples.
What does that say about the Medjay, who obviously, would have had larger, more complex teeth than that Gebel Ramlah sample?
Posts: 8792 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^I actually have no negative aversion to most of what Kokakola has typed here. The kid is obviously misguided (as I'd clearly mentioned already) but I'm simply commenting on what I took to be a good observation on his/her part (keeping in mind that he/she isn't a long-standing member of ES). He also made a good argument against you about the sustained ancestral Beja presence in Egypt so the kid isn't exactly dumb. Either way, you shouldn't feel threatened, in the grand scheme of things I find that both of you hold extreme views in this case (the ancient Egyptians were of Beja "type" vs. the ancient Egyptians were separated from Beja-speakers for millenia and underwent a separate "evolutionary path").
My position isn't extreme at all. I clearly wrote, that they were sister populations, and in that context, they were on separate evolutionary paths.
If two people meet eachother at a vork in a road, and both go their separate ways, it can't be discerned how far they are, if you only have the fact at your disposal, that they are on two seperate paths. Yet this what you're constantly doing with my sentence; you misreading my statement to mean genetically entirely different. This is obviously ruled out, by my acknowledgement that they were ''sister populations''.
Posts: 8792 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Also.. Tuaregs (descendants of the Lybians) shows affinities with the Beja..via mtDNA.. funny no?
Ignoring your West Africa bashing, this seems to be an astute observation, actually. Tishkoff's data on autosomal gene frequencies also associate the Kel Tamasheq with the Beja. Using them as a proxy to estimate ancient Egyptian variation (especially in the south, as they would have been sandwiched in between these two ancestral populations), therefore seems quite intuitive. Difficulty will rest however, on establishing what the baseline variation was and how much the two populations differ from their ancestors (that the modern and ancient variation in Egypt is similar, but qualitatively different, is a given).
Of course this is simply reciting ''common knowledge''. The troll is mistaking posters on the forum for being idiots, and I think its a shame you don't see through that.
This observation has been discussed many times on ES, even way before I even was a member. Researchers other than Tishkoff have noted this relationship as well. I find it funny that this KokaKola character wants to inform ES posters of the fact that King Tut wasn't a West African, and that it is ''funny'' or ''remarkable'' that Tuareg and Beja are closely related.
Excuse me ? You are the one trying to stick an entire population with a group of people they are not related. scientifical evidences clearly show that the Ancient Egyptians were CLEARLY NOT of west african origin since that _Modern Egyptians dont cluster with West Africans _There is no migration between Africa and Northesatern africa (minus the Sahelian populations like the Fulani, Baggara, Hausa..)
Also, the phenotype of the AE is common in West Africa
Finally, the culture of the Ancient Egyptian is related to the culture of the Cushitic speakers in East Africa.
Your entire argument is somewhat nonsense. On one hand argue that migration from West Africa to Egypt or vis-versa had to happen during Dynastic times for it to "count".
quote: And the PN2 clade is from the Paleolithic , unless the Ancient Egyptian civilization was built in this period
Then you talk about the connection of Beja and Egypt but at a time that Egyptian civilization did not exist and during a time probably prior to the existence of Beja as an identity, Beja language, or possible even the entire Cushitic phylum. That is called a double standard. You are saying migration from Egypt to West and Africa somehow does not count but migration from Egypt to Beja type people does count even though BOTH migrations occurred long prior to Egyptian civilization.
Furthermore you continue with the Euro strawman arguing that Egyptians didn't come from West Africa.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: This koKakoLa chick? is a crackpot and not worthy of being taken seriously on any level. She has absolutely no regard for backing up her highly opinionated posts.
i noticed that pan africanists HATE science! Science clearly debunks those wishful fantasies. Ancient egyptians were not west africans and not related to them.
Of course the Ancient Egyptians weren't West Africans, albeit they are related.
What exactly is your ultimate objective in raising such an argument, how does it benefit you to make West Africans some sort of separate entity within the continent that you ideologically go as far as to state they are unrelated to the other peoples of Africa?
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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What is so-called Eurasian about the features of the West African girls? Please elaborate.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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KoKaKoLa, despite what you seem to display as insanity and racist obsession with attacking Black Africans in West Africa, everything you have posted is wrong, irrelivant and/or inadmissble. But you should know that many vital things have inevitably been solidified, that:
1) Ancient Kemetians were 100% Black Africans (both so-called pre-dynastic and dynastic); 2) genetic tests results from human remains of royalty in Ancient Kemetians genetic matches Black Africans in West Africa 3) the Bantu and Ancient Kemet are genetically and lingustically linked 4) anthropological lingustic evidence, a world over, has further solidified the existence of Black Africans in West Africa in Ancient Kemet
5) West Africa contributed as a 'Nubian' source of origin peopling/populating Ancient Kemet. Likewise, Ancient Kemetians recognized this equator region as their ancestral origin and 'Land of the gods'. 6) Black Africans in West Africa represent and extremely high concentration some of unmixed, direct biological descendents of Ancient Kemetians
7) those in North Africa today are highly mixed people including many Ethiopeans (actually Abyssinians), Beja, Somalis, Eritreans, Morocco, Egypt as a result of foreign conqures, conquest and colonialism.
Your selective use of images used in representing the Yoruba and Igbo ethnic nationalities is not only childish, but also show you poorly and highly uneducated. Perhaps, maybe this is kind of abnormal behavior should be expected from Arabized-mixture people in so-called North Africa who have been brainwashed into thinking that have some Arab blood somehow makes them better than other Black Africans. Clearly, such nonsense is far from the truth.
As far as I know of, mixed ethnic groups like the Beja have yet to produce scientists, specialists and scholars at level of many Black African hailing from so-called Sub-Sahara Africa (ex: Theophile Obenga, Cheikh Anta Diop, Catherine Acholonu...etc) who can scholastically, with skill, expresses and expand on any hypothesis of interest, in particular, Ancient Kemetic connections. Since you clearly lack any civil and properly skills in presenting your hypothesis without weak attempts trying to discredit other Black Africans with selective, insignificant images you view as objects of self gratification, I thought maybe if I posted some information here, the likes of you may learn something, and if not, that's ok; it will be your loss, but others may learn something.
Firstly, though it may take a few more years before Eurocentrists admit it, Ancient Kemet was a 100% Negro-Bantu civilization. Secondly, Caucasians did not exist during the time of Ancient Kemet anywhere in Africa and giving that Ancient Kemet itself is well over ~22,000 years old, the implications are quite evident. According to White scientists, the gene(s) responsible for whiteness in Europeans is said to have mutated 5,000-6,000 years with some arguing maybe even 12,000 years ago (~12,000 years ago the entire Europe was under ice). Clearly, White people have absolutely nothing to do with Ancient Kemet and neither do Arabs. This means Caucasians are simply a result of very recent events in human history and hence why Eurocentrics feel to need of dating ancient civilizations within the limits of ~6,000 as to suggest Whites may have had something to do with it ( http://news.discovery.com/human/genetics-neanderthal-110718.html | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people ). In fact, it has been suggested, with scientific backing, that Europeans are hybrid-beings partly consisting of the genes of the long extinct non-human Neanderthal ( http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/183012/20110719/neanderthal-human-genetics-non-african.htm | http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Genetic+research+confirms+partly+Neanderthal/5122576/story.html | http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100506/full/news.2010.225.html ). Studies suggest that only in people of non-African heritage carry the non-human Neanderthal genes. So White people have now embarked on a massive propaganda campaign of big lies attempting to paint the now extinct non-human Neanderthal (missing anterio lobe of brain) as some human equivalent species capable of producing art, lanuguage and ability to produce complex systems. All this is non-sense and limited to fabrication on TV, movies so-called documentaries.
In our reality, Ancient Kemetians were 100% Black Africans and full blooked human beings whose civilization lasted for over ~17,000 years. Ancient Kemet, like Black African nations today, Ancient Kemet was made up many ethnic nationalities unified by an overall sameness and lingua-franc. In focus here are two ethnic nationalities you've naively and ignorantly chose to make fun of; that being the Igbo and the Yoruba. What is even more ammusing is your cluelessness that Black Africans in West Africa have built many majestic and advanced civilization in their present locations which, and under careful study, reveals their genetic connection to Ancient Kemet. For instance, genetic test on human remains from Ancient Kemet reveal these subjects (as with King Tutu-ankoma) carried SCD(Sickle Cell Disease) and upon searching its origin, it was discovered that the specific type of Sickle Cell was the Benin Haplotype (sometimes knownas Bantu Haplotype). Here are some references to the scientific study:
Sickle cell genetic tests were performed by: Marin A, Cerutti N, Massa ER. (Dipartimento di Biologia Animale e dell'Uomo, Universita degli Studi di Torino.)
On a side note, in Chapter 50 of the book titled "Blood: principles and practice of hematology, Volume 1", it clearly noted in detailed that the Benin/Bantu Haplotype are the most dominant type found in Egypt, Algeria, Greece, Turkey, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and so on. Other haplotypes types found is CAR (Central African Republic).
Here is another reference of Benin HbS Haplotype Found at 52.1% in Oman
What all implies, as proof, is that West Africa and Black Africans in West Africa played a major role surving as both a source(origin) of many Ancient Kemetian ethnicities as well as a destination point of resetlement for many ancient Black Africans migrating out of Ancient Kemet (Bantu Migration probably being the largest). Perhaps, to put this in a better light, we must look at some very important and vital facts for if we ignore these fact intentionally or unknowngly the natural accuracy model of Black African history, particularly, the region of West Africa will be thrown off. The fact is, there are two Ethiopia(s). I will donate names to these two Ethiopias as 'Ethiopia-Old' and 'Ethiopia-New'. Firstly Ethiopia-New is present day Ethiopia and only had it's name changed recently in history by colonial imperilists; changing it from 'Abbysinia' to 'Ethiopia'. Ethiopia-Old, as revealed by the maps of that era below was called "ĆTHIOPIA" is this old Ethiopia was clearly West Africa and undoubtably the Ethiopia-of-old ancient scholars compared the race of Ancient Egyptians(Kemetians) with. The 1640 Jodocus Hondius map of Africa clearly shows that at least in 1640 the ocean off the coast of what is now known as West Africa was called "Oceanus Aethiopicus" (#1). This remained so in the 1660 Willem Janszoon Blaeu map of Africa (#2). At least by 1743 was known to traverlers as "ĆTHIOPIA" and the body of water off it's coast commonly known as "Oceanvs ĆTHIOPICVS". Clearly West Africa was known as ĆTHIOPIA/Ethiopia for a long time.
1. 2. 3.
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Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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The anthropological linguistic work revealing the genetic relationship between the Igbo and Yoruba lanuages are not simply conincedences. For example:
EGYPTIAN (KEMETIAN) -to- IGBO LANGUAGE 1. Akhu-t (fire or light, name of Pyramid) Oku(fire, light) 2. Eshedah (implies slope, base of slope') Osheda (slopes/pulls down) 3. Yam (body of water) Iyi Oma (good water/mother goddess) 4. Hai(let it be) Ha ya (let it be) 5. Khef (gather them/tie them together) Kee fa (tie them togetner) 6. Ashah (multiply) Ghashah (multiply) 7. Ets Daatu (tree which makes known) Otusi Daatu (the Bamboo tree give knowledge) 8. Hamar (command) Hamara (command on to) 9. Pree-t (descendants - fruit of Tree of Knowledge) Mkpuru otu (descendants - fruit of the vagina) 10. Khasu/IKwushi ('Sea people', 'Nubians') - Akwu Nshi(Nest of immortals/God-men) 11. Apis/Aphi (Bull) Efi (Bull) 12. Tchau-a (place of the rising Sun) Chi awaa (dawn breaks/Sun-god emerges) 13. Wawa-t (Dawn of Sun People) Nwa Awaa ('Son of the Dawn') 14. NTR/Neter (gods, guardian or watcher) O-Netara (one who guards and watches over 15. Ptah(he who fashions things by carving and opening up) Okpu-atu (he who moulds/fashions things by carving and opening up) 16. Hu-ku-Pta (place of the Soul of Ptah) Ihu-chi-Ptah- (Shrine of Ptah) 17. Ra (Sun, Daylight) oRa(Sun, Daylight (Igbo Afa)) 18. Asar (god associated with number 7) Asar (seven, god of number seven) 19. Heru(face of the sun) Iru (face) 20. KAKA(God) | Ka (greater, superior) 21. Em (smell) | Emi (nose, associated with smell) 22. Bi (to become) | Bu (to become) 23. Feh (to go away) | Feh (to fly away) 24. Budo (dwelling place) | uBudo (country, dwelling place) 25. Un (living person) | Una/Unu (living area, house) 26. Beka (pray/confess) | Beko (to plead, please) 27. Aru (mouth) | Aku/Ahu (to speak) & Unu (mouth) 28. Dor (settlement) | Dor-Nor (sit down, settle) 29. Ra -Shu (light after darkness) | La -Shu (sleep) 30. Ma (to know) | Ma, Ma-li (to know)
EGYPTIAN (KEMETIAN) -to- YORUBA LANGUAGE
1. Iset (a water god) Ise (a water god) 2. Shabu (watcher) Ashonbo (watcher) 3. Semati (door keeper) Sema (lock/shut the door) 4. Khenti amenti (big words of Osiris Yenti – yenti (big, very big) 5. Ma (to know) Ma (to know) 6. Bebi, a son of osiris) Ube, a god 8. Tchatcha chief (they examined the death to see if they tricked tsatsa (a game of tricks, gambling ) 9. Ren( animal foot) Ren (to walk) 10. Ka (rest) Ka (rest/tired) 11. Mu (water) Mu (drink water) 12. Abi (against) Ubi (against / impediment) 13. Reti (to beseech) Retin (to listen) 14. Hir (praise) Yiri (praise) 15. Ta(spread out) Ta (spread out) 16. Kamwr (black) Kuru (extremely black 17. Omitjener (deep water) Omijen (deep water) 18. Nen, the primeval water mother) Nene (mother 19. Ta (land) Ita (land junction) 20. Horiwo (head) Oriwo (head) 21. Ro (talk) Ro (to think) 22. Kurubu (round) Kurubu (deep and round) 23. Penka (divide) Kpen (divide) 24. Ma-su (to mould) Ma or su (to mould) 25. Osa (time) Osa (time) 26. Osa (tide) Osa ( tide) 27. Fare (wrap) Fari (wrap) 28. Kom (complete) Kon (complete) 29. Edjo (cobra) Edjo (cobra) 30. Didi (red fruit) Diden (red
Furthmore, it is already known that Ancient Kemet was a Bantu civilization with diverse facial features a world over. Facial analysis comparsion Black Africans in West Africa to Ancient Kemetians clearly reveal these patterns of similarities. It also shows that the old Ethiopia refered to by scholars was physically West Africa and not Abyssinia (new, today's Ethiopia):
As you can see, in the end, in your attempt to make fun of and/or billitle other Black African people, all you posted were pictures of some highly mixed North African inhabitants who look nothing like the original mold of Ancient Kemet. As I've clearly show, Black Africans in West Africa completely match the original mold of Ancient Kemet. Below, to your selective use of outdated images of some rural Black Africans, I've selectively chosen images which acurately shows what Black Africans in West Africa also look like today:
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Beja live in Egypt. Beja were in Egypt BEFORE Ancient Egypt and they are still there After Ancient Egypt. West Africans WERE NOT in Egypt. and NEVER settled. Modern Nubians and Egyptians DO NOT cluster with West Africans. West africans genes are almost inexistant among those populations.
West africans are mostly agriculturists. Agricultutrists tend to have a low migration rate. Naqadan were pastoralists. Pastoralism is common into East Africa NOT west africa
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My last post here, as I'm not going to deal with people getting into a tug of war about whether Egyptians were Bantu/West Africans or Northeastern AFricans (Its only playing into the creative ability of Kokakola to erect strawmen).
This supports the view that the Egyptians and Black Africans are genetically related. This hypothesis led to the corrolary hypothesis that, the Black Africans and Egyptians spoke similar languages.
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Chiekh Anta Diop has contributed much to the Afrocentric social sciences. Here we discuss many of Diop's views on using the linguistic sciences to rediscover the ancient history of Blacks.
Chiekh Anta Diop has made important contributions to linguistic theory in relation to African historiography. Diop's work illustrates that it is important for scholars to maintain a focus on the historical and linguistic factors which define the "personnalitč culturelle africaine" (Diop 1991, 227).
Language is the sanctum sanctorum of Diop's Afrocentric historical method. The Diopian view of historiography combines the research of linguistics, history and psychology to interpret the cultural unity of African people. C. Anta Diop is the founder of modern Afrocentricism . Diop (1974,1991) laid the foundations for the Afrocentric idea in education. He laid these foundations using both the historical and anthropological/linguistic methods of research to explain the role of the Blacks in World History.
There are three components in the genetic model: 1) common Physical type, 2) common cultural patterns and 3) genetically related languages. (Winters 1989a) Diop over the years has brought to bear all three of these components in his illumination of Kemetic civilization. (Diop 1974,1977,1978,1991)
The opposition of many Eurocentric scholars to Afrocentric -ism results from white hostility to Diop's idea of a Black Egypt, and the view that Egyptians spoke an African ,rather than Afro-Asiatic language.
Recently, Eurocentric American scholars have alleged to write reviews of Diop's recent book (Diop 1991). Although these reviewers mention the work of Diop in their articles, they never review his work properly, because they lack the ability to understand the many disciplines that Diop has mastered.(Lefkowitz 1992; Baines 1991) For example Lefkowitz (1992) in The New Republic, summarizes Diop (1974) but never presents any evidence to dispute the findings of Diop. The most popular "review" of Diop (1991) was done by Baines (1991) review in the New York Times Book Review. In this "review" Baines (1991) claims that "...the evidence and reasoning used to support the arguments are often unsound".
Instead of addressing the evidence Diop (1991) presents of the African role in the rise of civilization that he alleges is "unsound", he is asking the reader to reject Diop's thesis without refutation of specific evidence presented by Diop of the African contributions to Science and Philosophy. Baines (l991) claims that Diop's Civilization or Barbarism, is not a work of originality, he fails to dispute any factual evidence presented by Diop. Baines (1991) wants the public to accept his general negative comments about Civilization or Barbarism ,based on the fact that he is an Egyptologist. This is not enough, in academia to refute a thesis one must present counter evidence that proves the falseness of a thesis not unsubstantiated rhetoric. We can not accept the negative views of Baines on faith alone. In the recovery of information concerning the African past, Diop promotes semantic anthropology, comparative linguistics and the study of Onomastics. The main thesis of Diop is that typonymy and ethnonymy of Africa point to a common cradle for Paleo-Africans in the Nile Valley (Diop 1978, 67).
Onomastics is the science of names. Diop has studied legends, placenames and religious cult terms to discover the unity of African civilization. Diop (1981, 86) observed that: "An undisputed linguistic relationship between two geographically remote groups of languages can be relevant for the study of migrations. A grammatical (or genetic) relationship if clear enough is never an accident".
As a result, Diop has used toponyms (place-names), anthroponyms (personal names) and ehthnonyms (names of ethnic groups/tribes) to explain the evidence of analogous ethnic (clan) names in West Africa and the Upper Nile (Diop 1991).
In Precolonial Black Africa, Diop used ethnonyms to chart the migrations of African people in West Africa. And in The African Origin of Civilization, Diop used analyses acculturaliste or typological analysis to study the origin and spread of African cultural features from the Nile Valley to West Africa through his examination of toponyms (Diop 1974, 182-183). In the Cultural Unity of Black Africa, Diop discussed the common totems and religious terms many African ethnic groups share (Diop 1978, 124).
LINGUISTIC TAXONOMY
This linguistic research has been based on linguistic classification or taxonomy. Linguistic taxonomy is the foundation upon which comparative and historical linguistic methods are based (Ruhlen 1994). Linguistic taxonomy is necessary for the identification of language families. The determination of language families give us the material to reconstruct the proto-language of a people and discover regular sound correspondences.
There are three major kinds of language classifications: genealogical, typological, and areal. A genealogical classifica-tion groups languages together into language families based on the shared features retained by languages since divergence from the common ancestor or proto-language. An areal classification groups languages into linguistic areas based on shared features acquired by a process of convergence arising from spatial proximity. A typological classification groups languages together into language types by the similarity in the appearance of the structure of languages without consideration of their historical origin and present, or past geographical distribution.
COMPARATIVE METHOD
Diop has used comparative and historical linguistics to illuminate the Unity of African civilization. Diop (1977, xxv) has noted that "The process for the evolution of African languages is clearly apparent; from a far we (have) the idea that Wolof is descendant by direct filiation to ancient Egyptian, but the Wolof, Egyptian and other African languages (are) derived from a common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common African or the Negro- African of L. Homburger or of Th. Obenga."
The comparative method is used by linguists to determine the relatedness of languages, and to reconstruct earlier language states. The comparative linguist has two major goals (1) trace the history of language families and reconstruct the mother language of each family, and (2) determine the forces which affect language. In general, comparative linguists are interested in determining phonetic laws, analogy/ correspondence and loan words. Diop is a strong supporter of the comparative method in the rediscovery of Paleo-African. The reconstruction of Paleo-African involves both reconstruction and recognition of regular sound correspondence. The goal of reconstruction is the discovery of the proto-language of African people is the recovery of Paleo-African:
(1) vowels and consonants
(2) specific Paleo-African words
(3) common grammatical elements; and
(4) common syntactic elements.
The comparative method is useful in the reconstruction of Proto-languages or Diop's Paleo-African. To reconstruct a proto-language the linguist must look for patterns of correspondences. Patterns of correspondence is the examination of terms which show uniformity. This uniformity leads to the inference that languages are related since uniformity of terms leads to the inference that languages are related since conformity of terms in two or more languages indicate they came from a common ancestor.
HISTORICAL LINGUISTICS
A person's language provides us with evidence of the elements of a group's culture. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about a group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language. Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologist make precise inferences about a groups culture elements.
Linguistic resemblances denote a historical relationship. This suggest that resemblances in fundamental vocabulary and culture terms can help one reconstruct the culture of the speakers of genetically related languages.
LINGUISTIC CONSTANCY
The rate at which languages change is variable. It appears that linguistic change is culture specific. Consequently, the social organization and political culture of a particular speech community can influence the speed at which languages change.
Based on the history of language change in Europe most linguists believe that the rate of change for all languages is both rapid and constant.(Diagne, 1981,p.238) The idea that all languages change rapidly is not valid for all the World's languages.
African languages change much slower than European languages. (Armstrong, 1962) For example, African vocabulary items collected by Arab explorers over a thousand years ago are analogous to contemporary lexical items.(Diagne,1981, p.239) In addition there are striking resemblances between the ancient Egyptian language and Coptic, and Pharonic Egyptian and African languages.(Diagne, 1981; Diop, 1977; Obenga, 1993)
The political stability of African political institutions has caused languages to change very slowly in Africa. Pawley and Ross (1993) argue that a sedentary life style may account for the conservative nature of a language.
African oral traditions and the eye witness accounts of travelers to Africa, make it clear that African empires although made up of diverse nationalities illustrated continuity. To accomodate the plural nature of African empires Africans developed a Federal system of government. (Niane , 1984) In fact we can not really describe ancient African state systems as empires, since this implies absolute rule or authority in a single individual. This political state of affairs rarely existed in ancient Africa, because in each African speech community local leadership was elected by the people within the community. (Diop, 1987) For example the Egyptians often appointed administrators over the conquered territories from among the conquered people. (Diop ,1991)
The continuity of many African languages may result from the steady state nature of African political systems, and long standing cultural stability since neolithic times. (Diop, 1991 ; Winters 1985) This cultural stability has affected the speed at which African languages change.
In Africa due to the relative stability of socio-political structures and settled life, there has not been enough pressure exerted on African societies as a whole and African speech communities in particular, to cause radical internal linguistic changes within most African languages. Permanent settlements led to a clearly defined system of inheritance and royal succession. These traits led to stability on both the social and political levels. This leads to the hypothesis that linguistic continuity exist in Africa due to the stability of African socio-political structures and cultural systems. This relative cultural stability has led African languages to change more slowly then European and Asian languages. Diop (1974) observed that:
First the evolution of languages, instead of moving everywhere at the same rate of speed seems linked to other factors; such as , the stability of social organizations or the opposite, social upheavals. Understandably in relatively stable societies man's language has changed less with the passage of time.(pp.153-154)
There is considerable evidence which supports the African continuity concept. Dr. Armstrong (1962) noted the linguistic continuity of African languages when he used glottochronology to test the rate of change in Yoruba. Comparing modern Yoruba words with a list of identical terms collected 130 years ago by Koelle , Dr. Armstrong found little if any internal or external changes in the terms. He concluded that:
I would have said that on this evidence African languages are changing with glacial slowness, but it seems to me that in a century a glacier would have changed a lot more than that. Perhaps it would be more in order to say that these languages are changing with geological slowness. (Armstrong, 1962, p.285).
Diop's theory of linguistic constancy recognizes the social role language plays in African language change. Language being a variable phenomena has as much to do with a speaker's society as with the language itself. Thus social organization can influence the rate of change within languages. Meillet (1926, 17) wrote that:
Since language is a social institution it follows that linguistics is a social science, and the only variable element to which one may appeal in order to account for a linguistic change is social change, of which language variations are but the consequences.
THE BLACK AFRICAN ORIGIN OF EGYPT
Diop has contributed much to African linguistics. He was a major proponent of the Dravidian-African relationship (Diop 1974, 116), and the African substratum in Indo-European languages in relationship to cacuminal sounds and terms for social organiza-tion and culture (1974, 115). Diop (1978, 113) also recognized that in relation to Arabic words, after the suppression of the first consonant, there is often an African root.
Diop's major linguistic effort has been the classification of Black African and Egyptian languages . Up until 1977 Diop'smajor area of interest were morphological and phonological similarities between Egyptian and Black African languages. Diop (1977, 77-84) explains many of his sound laws for the Egyptian-Black African connection.
In Parčnte Génétique de l'Egyptien pharraonique et des Langues Négro Africaines (PGEPLNA), Diop explains in some detail his linguistic views in the introduction of this book. In PGEPLNA , Diop demonstrates the genetic relationship between ancient Egyptian and the languages of Black Africa. Diop provides thousands of cognate Wolof and Egyptian terms in support of his Black African-Egyptian linguistic relationship.
PALEO-AFRICAN
African languages are divided into Supersets (i.e., a family of genetically related languages, e.g., Niger-Congo) sets, and subsets. In the sets of African languages there are many parallels between phonological terms, eventhough there may be an arbitrary use of consonants which may have a similar sound. The reason for these changes is that when the speakers of Paleo-African languages separated, the various sets of languages underwent separate developments. As a result a /b/ sound in one language may be /p/ or /f/ in a sister language. For example, in African languages the word for father may be baba , pa or fa, while in the Dravidian languages we have appan to denote father. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about an ethnic group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language.
Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologists make precise inferences about a linguistic group's cultural elements.
BLACKS IN WEST ASIA
In PGEPLNA Diop makes clear his views on the role of African languages in the rise of other languages. Using archaeological evidence Diop makes it clear that the original West Asians: Elamites and Sumerians were of Black origin (1974, 1977, xxix-xxxvii).
Diop (1974, 1991) advocates the unity of Black Africans and Blacks in West Asia. Winters (1985,1989,1994) has elaborated on the linguistic affinity of African and West Asian languages.
This view is supported by linguistic evidence. For example these languages share demonstrative bases:
Proximate Distant Finite
Dravidian i a u
Manding i a u
Sumerian bi a
Wolof i a u
The speakers of West Asian and Black African languages also share basic culture items: Chief city,village black,burnt
Dravidian cira, ca uru kam
Elamite Salu
Sumerian Sar ur
Manding Sa furu kami,"charcoal'
Nubia sirgi mar
Egyptian Sr mer kemit
Paleo-African *sar *uru *kam
OBENGA
Obenga (1978) gives a phonetic analysis of Black African and Egyptian. He illustrates the genetic affinity of consonants within the Black African (BA) and Egyptian languages especially the occlusive bilateral sonorous, the occlusive nasal apico-dental /n/ and /m/ , the apico-alveolar /r/ and the radical proto-form sa: 'man, female, posterity' in Black Africa.
Language
Agaw asau, aso 'masculine
Sidama asu 'man'
Oromo asa id.
Caffino aso id.
Yoruba so 'produce'
Meroitic s' man
Fonge sunu id.
Bini eso 'someone'
Kikongo sa,se,si 'father'
Swahili (m)zee 'old person'
Egyptian sa 'man'
Manding si,se 'descendant,posterity,family'
Azer se 'individual, person'
Obenga (1978) also illustrated the unity between the verbs 'to come, to be, to arrive':
Language
Egyptian ii, ey Samo, Loma dye
Mbosi yaa Bisa gye
Sidama/Omo wa Wolof nyeu
Caffino wa Peul yah, yade
There is t =/= d, highlight the alternation patterns of many Paleo-African consonants including b =/= p, l =/= r ,and g =/= k.
The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:
Galla senyi
Malinke se , si
Sumerian se
Egyptian sen 'granary'
Kannanda cigur
Bozo sii
Bambara sii
Daba sisin
Somali sinni
Loma sii
Susu sansi
Oromo sanyi
Dime siimu
Egyptian ssr 'corn'
id. ssn 'lotus plant'
id. sm 'herb, plant'
id. isw 'weeds'
In conclusion, Diop has done much to encourage the African recovery of their history. His theories on linguistics has inspired many African scholars to explain and elaborate the African role in the history of Africa and the world. This has made his work important to our understanding of the role of Black people in History.
Here we have shown the methods Anta Diop has used to rediscover the long and great history of Africans in Africa and the world. This methods allow us to reconstruct the Paleo-African culture formerly practiced by Africans in Africa, Asia and the Americas.
It also shows that West Africans and Cushitic speakers share common terms for the principal items of culture because they were all part of the Pan-African Egyptian civilization.
posted
The Ottoman Empire controlled Sudan, Eritrea and Somalia for 400 years. Can this explain the presence of Eurasian genes among populations in this area instead of a back migration?
Article European Journal of Human Genetics (2005) 13, 856–866. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201390 Published online 9 March 2005
High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males
Juan J Sanchez1, Charlotte Hallenberg1, Claus Břrsting1, Alexis Hernandez2 and Niels Morling1
Y chromosome haplogroup variation We identified a total of 23 Y chromosome haplogroups in 389 males from Somalia, sub-Saharan West Africa, Turkey and Iraq. Figure 1 shows the genealogical relationship of the haplogroups and their frequencies.
In Somali males, 14 haplogroups were identified. The frequency of the clade E3b was 81.1%, including 77.6% of the haplogroup E3b1 defined by the M78 mutation. The Eurasian haplogroup K2 was found in 10.4%, and 3.0% of the Somali Y chromosomes belonged to the major clade J. Only 3.0% of the Somalis had the sub-Saharan African haplogroups A3, B and E3a*(xE3a4). Less than 2.0% of the Somalis belonged to the Northwest African E3b2 lineage. In the present study, no individual belonging to E3b* chromosomes carried the V6 mutation, which identifies a subset of chromosomes assigned to E3b* (E-M35*).10
Among the sub-Saharan Western Africans, only four haplogroups were identified. The West African clade E3a was found in 89.2%. Only one individual carried the major clade E3b (1.5%), and the haplogroup E3b1 was not observed.
In Turks, 12 haplogroups were found. The four haplogroups J2*(xJ2f2) (27.1%), R1b3*(xR1b3d, R1b3f) (20.3%), E3b3 and R1a1*(xR1a1b) (both 11.9%) were the most frequent ones.
In Iraqis, 12 haplogroups were identified. The haplogroup J2*(xJ2f2) was the most frequent
The distribution of the haplogroups J2*(xJ2f2) (0.5%) and J*(xJ2) (2.5%) in Somalis support the recent gene flow hypothesis. Haplogroup J*(xJ2) was probably spread by the Arab people.40 The ratio between the haplogroups J2/J*(xJ2) may be an indicator of the genetic components from populations like (1) Balkans, Turks, Georgians and Muslim Kurds and (2) Bedouin and Palestinian Arabs, respectively.40, 52 The ratio was 0.26 in the Oman population.9 The J2/J*(xJ2) ratio of 0.2 in the present Somali sample suggest a predominant gene flow of Arab Y chromosomes.
In conclusion, the data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population – closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya (Boranas) – with predominant E3b1 cluster DYS392-12 lineages that probably were introduced into the Somali population 4000–5000 years ago, approximately 15% Y chromosomes from Eurasia and approximately 5% from sub-Saharan Africa. Work is in progress in order to study closely related populations with new informative markers to obtain a better understanding of the E3b1 lineages .
The Ottoman Turks ruled Sudan, Egypt, Somali amd Eritrea from the 1500's to early 1900's.
A study by Krings et al. from 1999 on mitochondrial DNA clines along the Nile Valley found that a Eurasian cline runs from Northern Egypt to Southern Sudan, and a Sub-Saharan cline extends from Southern Sudan to Northern Egypt. Another study based on maternal lineages links modern Egyptians with people from modern Eritrea/Ethiopia such as the Afro-Asiatic-speaking Tigre. Similarly, an mtDNA study of modern Egyptians from the Gurna region near Thebes in Southern Egypt revealed that Eurasian haplogroups represented 61% of the population, with the remainder 39% being of Sub-Saharan origin. The oral tradition of the Gurna people indicates that they descend from the ancient Egyptians. http://www.biblediscovered.com/genetic-ethnicity-of-nations/archaeogenetics-of-the-near-east/ Haplogroups J2*(xJ2f2) (0.5%) and J*(xJ2) (2.5%) in Somalis support the recent gene flow hypothesis.
Frequencies are high in Turkey, approximately 24% of Turkish men are J2 according to a recent study, with regional frequencies ranging between 13% and 40%. Combined with J1, up to half of the Turkish population belongs to Haplogroup J.
Many people in this are have probably been heavily influenced by Turks. This is why you guys share genes with Eurasians. They are due to recent contact.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
KoKaKoLa, you are very wrong! In fact, everything you have posted so far is clearly pointless. Though reversible, I don't see how you can better your position in the current state. What is clear, is that you seem to gratify and enjoy silliness. Also, you seem to have found personal comfort in pointless disagrements without any logical reason other than having a form of social xenophobia complex you seem to have developed toward other Black Africans. Such abnormal behaviors are clearly conditioned teachings. In layman's terms, what this means is that you embody a form socio-psychological disorder known as Arab/North-African racism towards Black Africans. It is the same sort of socio-psychological disorder which lead Black Africans in Southern Sudan towards a successful creation of their own nation after decades of fighting against Arab racism. Unfortunately, the state you seem to find yourself in is clearly an invalid state as a basis for engaging in any civil and logical debate. In such a state, you clearly do not meet even the most minimum and sensible requirement to engage in academic matters, especially in a subject as large and far reaching as Black African/Bantu genetic relationship to Anceint Kemet. As an example, out of what seem to be a very serious naviety and bluntly, ignorance, you wrote:
"Genetics & Anthropology > Lingusitics anyday"
You wrote this without even realzing that linguistic study part anthropology. Clearly you don't know anything about linguistic study and why it is such a trusted and vital part of anthropology. It is because people move and locations don't, therefore linguistic anthropology can be exceptionally reliable and accurate in tracking people movement over time. This is why linguistic study is a highly regarded part of anthropology. The fact that you did not even know that linguistic study is part of anthropology solidifies what I said earlier, that you do not meet the requirements to engage in an academic debate. Furthermore, the motive behind your disagreement is clearly based on a socio-psychological disorder of North African-Arab conditioned racism towards Black Africans.
I would strongly suggest you study the Black African ethnic nationalities in West Africa, as well as West Africa's numerous majestic ancient and highly advanced civilizations. The significance of West Africa's contribution in to the world is far too massive to ignore. West Africa's genetic relationship to Ancient Kemet is permanently solidified.
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: ... 1) yes 2) let me see those tests then? Last time i checked Anthropology and Genetics clearly states that west africans population were inexistant in Egypt and that modern Egyptian, who descent from the Ancients, do not cluster with West africans. The remains cluster more with Egyptians & Northern Sudanese. And the bones structure of most of the mummies is not...related to west africans.
3 & 4)HmmM Not really , genetically speaking. Linguistically speaking, languages travel. The AE IMPORTED from PUNT, dancing pigmies
A whole population cant be only based on Languages Igbo and Yoruba languages are not related to Ancient Egyptian. the closest language , once again, is bedawiyet.
Genetics & Anthropology > Lingusitics anyday.
5)..hum.. Ancient Egyptians didnt migrated anywhere... No historical evidence. WHich event? when? No Anthropological evidence. No genetical evidence.
6 &7) You said the Igbos & yorubas were the ancient egyptians. Whats wrong if i compare them with the ancient egyptians? They dont look like the ancient egyptians, anyway.
The basis of the Egyptian population = East Africa.
ps: Why did you show pics of mixed americans? LMAO i thought the Ancient Egyptians were Igbos? Yoruba? show yoruba, igbos then..
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
No surprise that this thread has degenerated also.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I've been on vacation and haven't had much time to post here and haven't been keeping up.
No problem bro, sh!t happens. Any ideas on how to interpret that post cranial data?
Can you give me more info on the data. I didn't even know that it was cranial. I thought it was skeletal. Can you send me the paper it comes from?
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: i dont know if all the Beja have large teeth and i dont know about the teeth of the ancient egyptian. i've just seen articles saying that the pharaohs of the XVIII dynasty and their wives had "buck teeth".
like this one?
The buck teeth is alveolar prognathism and is not the same as large teeth which refers to tooth size. Such features are common with more so-called "negro" i.e. 'Bantu' features. I know you don't feel comfortable with that, but oh well.
Posts: 26415 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Benin sickle cell haplotype is also found in Southeastern europe where west africans genes are almost inexistant. it doesnt imply a west african origin.
Of course it does, silly! Benin sickle cell IS a West African gene!! Why do you think it is named 'Benin' in the first place??
^ As you can see it is labeled 'Benin' because that sickle-cell trait originated in the Benin area, but spread to other areas including Egypt in northeast Africa as well as southern Europe-- both Greece as well as Italy.
quote:Greeks have 25% of E1B1B1A which originates from northeastern africa. But almost no west african admixtures. the first E1B1B1A carriers (the Natufians ?) who entered in southeastern europe in the late mesolithic probably already had the benin sickle cell trait.
Yes, the predominant African lineage among Greeks is E1b1b but how do you explain the Benin sickle cell? Also while most of the African HLA genes are east African (affinities with Sudanese and Ethiopian) there are some that are West African in origin (affinities with Burkina Faso and Fulani).
And No, there is no evidence of Benin or any sickle cell amongst Natufians.
quote: Once again Egyptians and west africans dont share similar genetic markers
Yes they do. Both Benin HBS as well as mitochondrial L3, U6, and Y-chromosomal E1b1a, specifically haplotype IV.
Upper Egypt (n=66); V=24.2%, XI=28.8%, and IV=27.3%.
Lower Nubia (n=46); V=17.4%, XI=30.4%, and IV=39.1%
Lucotte & Mercier's et al. 2003
From Cruciani et al.
^ Notice even Arab Egyptians have small traces of E3a (E1b1a) although E3b is predominant.
The answer: West Africans and East Africans were never separated. Peoples moved back and forth the Sahel and especially the Saharan region before it became desert.
Posts: 26415 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
One important group of people Egyptologists have long acknowledged as significant founders of Egyptians civilization would be the mysterious Anu people. Clyde Winters was going in the right direction with this but messed up when he called them "pygmies" which they weren't, nor do they have any known connection with actual Pygmies further south.
More info about them can be read here.
Posts: 26415 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^indeed, it just doesn't add up to be talking about Medjay, as major founders. That spot is already taken up by other groups such as the one you've just mentioned.
Posts: 8792 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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i noticed that pan africanists HATE science! Science clearly debunks those wishful fantasies. Ancient egyptians were not west africans and not related to them.
Yet, it is I who insists on literally dragging you to USE SCIENCE to corroborate your opinionated suppositions, but that doesn't deter you from avoiding and hiding from your obligations to hold yourself accountable accordingly.
You've strangely convinced yourself that running away from calls to validate yourself will shelter you from exposing your credibility deficit, which of course, is preposterous. Not so? Then how have you managed to not be able to define your own terms as requested days and days ago?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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^ Indeed, this gal is obviously as delusional as the Euronnuts. He accuses everyone here of being "pan-Africanists". That may be true for a few but certainly not all of us let alone those of us veterans who are actually objective enough to rely on actual science and not some sort of African political idealism pan or Horner/Cushitic or what have you!
quote:Originally posted by KooKooKoLa: Buck teeth is not synonymous with alveolar prognathism. There is no reference of them having alveolar prognathism anyway. the skull of akhenaten talks by itself.
The pigmy mask...and Tut...dont match
Do you even know what alveolar prognathism is?? It is the projection of the dental part of the skull, specifically the front teeth, so YES that does mean 'buck-teeth'! And YES there are plenty of references to Egyptians having that as their most common form of prognathism among them (although there are Egyptians who have maxillary as well as full-frontal prognathisms also)!!
Harris and Wente note the prevalence of dental prognathism among Nubians. Often this is combined with malocclusion. Similar incidence can be found in other African peoples. For example, one study found that a sample taken from the Kenya showed 61.3% of Maasai had diastema; 84% of Kikuyu had overbite and 99% had overjet; and 24% of Kalenjin had anterior open bite. (J. Hassanali, GP Pokhariyal, "Anterior tooth relations in Kenyan Africans, Archives of Oral Biology 38 [Apr 1993] 337-42). Although these dental traits can often be acquired through habits like thumb-sucking, as noted by Harris and Wente, the high frequency in the royal mummies indicates a genetic origin as found in Africans.
LOL You obviously don't know what you're talking about.
By the way, what do Pygmies have anything to do with what I said? It was Clyde who claimed the proto-Egyptians to be Pygmies, not I!
Posts: 26415 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KooKooKoLa: where are the west african markers in south east Europe?LMAO
I just showed you, moron! LMAO There are 4 main types of variations of sickle cell; one in Eurasia is the Arab-Indian types, while 3 are African-- Senegal, Benin, and Bantu. The type found in southern Europe in general is Benin. Plus there are some HLA genes in Greeks that are West African. As far as Y-chromosome lineages, E1b1a is mainly found in Southwest Europe although there are only traces of it in southeast Europe. What does that have to do with the topic of Egypt where West African markers are more prevalent especially in the southern areas like hapotype IV?!
quote: Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology , Oct 2008 by Ricaut, F X, Waelkens, M
A late Pleistocene–early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace et al. 2005) and from archeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile valley origin of the “Mesolithic” (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al. 2001; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al. 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al. 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic–Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994).
Now its explained it must be the same for Egypt like i said earlier, it must had entered Southern europe in the late Paleolithic/Mesolithic by the E1B1B1A carriers
LOL That source you cited was cited here years ago, so it is not new to me nor to the rest of the veterans in this forum. It's obviously new to YOU. And apparently you missed the part where it said that it originated in WEST Africa, so I highlighted it for you. So basically what they're saying is that if Benin HBS was carried by the Epipaleolithic forebears into the Levant by the Natufians then they must have inherited from West African ancestors, dummy. As again it talks about peoples migrating and moving around. If people moved from northeast Africa into the Levant and then into southern Europe, why is it so hard to believe that West Africans migrated across the Saharan region when it was green and fertile and then into the Nile Valley??
quote:Mtdna L3 is common to East africa and is the supposed parent of the eurasian M and N.
Yes but L3a derived lineages are also found in other areas of African including West and Central Africa. Your point?
quote:Mtdna U6 which is originally Eurasian, is common to Berbers
Actually that is a Eurocentric theory that has yet to be proven since U6 is found in both its highest frequency and diversity in North Africa, specifically Northwest Africa NOT Eurasia where only downstream forms are found in very low frequency.
quote:Y'all always clinged to the same old graphics, dont you?
Not my graphics and not my problem. YOUR problem of course is a failure at comprehension even of your own sources! Even the map above shows the presence of E1b1a (M2) and E1b1a (M58) in Egypt! LMAOPosts: 26415 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: One important group of people Egyptologists have long acknowledged as significant founders of Egyptians civilization would be the mysterious Anu people. Clyde Winters was going in the right direction with this but messed up when he called them "pygmies" which they weren't, nor do they have any known connection with actual Pygmies further south.
Hey, dummy! Where in my quote above did I say he was a Pygmy?!! It was Clyde who called him a Pygmy NOT I! In fact, I said Clyde is wrong as there is no evidence that these people were "Pygmies". The early inhabitants of Egypt were indeed short in stature but not that short! This makes me wonder, are you able to read what's in front of you or just what you imagine??
quote:This afro wearing man who bare-chested and holding a pastoral stick look like any Beja man.
Actually Lord Tera Neter doesn't appear to have an Afro as his hair is short.
This picture below looks more like it.
quote: [Useless Picture Spam]
come on y'all. let me see where are those afro & braids wearing redddish brownskinned west african tribes y'all love to talk about!
Of course you probably won't be satisfied and think the above are unusual for West Africa.
Posts: 26415 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The Ancient Egyptians probably looked like a mixture between Afro-Asiatic speaking East Africans and Southwest Asians.
Posts: 424 | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by KooKooKoLa: where are the west african markers in south east Europe?LMAO
I just showed you, moron! LMAO There are 4 main types of variations of sickle cell; one in Eurasia is the Arab-Indian types, while 3 are African-- Senegal, Benin, and Bantu. The type found in southern Europe in general is Bantu. Plus there are some HLA genes in Greeks that are West African. As far as Y-chromosome lineages, E1b1a is mainly found in Southwest Europe although there are only traces of it in southeast Europe. What does that have to do with the topic of Egypt where West African markers are more prevalent especially in the southern areas like hapotype IV?!
quote: Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology , Oct 2008 by Ricaut, F X, Waelkens, M
A late Pleistocene–early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace et al. 2005) and from archeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile valley origin of the “Mesolithic” (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al. 2001; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al. 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al. 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic–Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994).
Indeed, and as they mention Greece, the historic era sees some African DNA markers showing up in Greeks as well, as noted years ago on ES.
Posts: 5935 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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No, "Cushitic speakers type" doesn't sound any better, because it is not the "scientific" response that I pressed for. And the location of Pwnt is far from being certain.
BTW, where do the AE claim to have come from Pwnt?
Didnt they call it Ta Netjer? Doesnt Ta Netjer means land of the Gods/Ancestors?
First of, how do you figure that "God" is interchangeable with "ancestors"?
Secondly, it should be read as "God", not "Gods"; the plural form of Neter is "Neteru"/"Neterou".
Thirdly, I have seen no evidence wherein the AE claim that they originated from Pwnt.
Fourthly, I haven't come across any AE text yet, that pointedly refers Pwnt as "Ta-Neter".
quote:
They imported Myhrr,Frankinscence, ivory and pigmies from there. Pnt was depicted with wild animals common to Africa.
Do pygmies live among the Beja?
quote: The puntites looked like the Ancient Egyptians. just like the Beja look like the Somalis and the Oromo..
Do you have any wall murals showing the "Beja" side by side with the AE? That would be the best way to tell if the AE saw it like you do.
quote: there was 2 ways to go there : road or boat (via the Red Sea)
this is obvious.
The Red Sea length spans Sudan all the way to Djibouti. It is the only other avenue to get to territories beyond Kush. This info doesn't make the precise location or extent of Pwnt "obvious".
So, do you think you are now up to the task of scientifically establishing your "Cushitic Speakers types"?
Also, do not forget that the reference of Punt as the "Land of the God" could have been the calque for Ancient Greek legends claiming that the Ancient Ethiopian land close to the ocean would be the favourite place of the Gods because of the festive mood it was providing. In this case, it would have nothing to do with geographical origin.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Aug 2011
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] The Ottoman Empire controlled Sudan, Eritrea and Somalia for 400 years. Can this explain the presence of Eurasian genes among populations in this area instead of a back migration?
Alwa Alodia was the furthest of the Nubian states from the influences of Egypt and thus the last of the Nubian states to be converted to Islam. The conventional date for the final destruction of Alodia is the Funj conquest of the region in the early sixteenth century. Archaeological evidence seems to show that the kingdom was in decline as early as the thirteenth century. Near the end of this century al-Harrani reports that the capital had been moved to Wayula. Later Mamluk emissaries reported that the region was divided among nine rulers.Alodia was the furthest of the Nubian states from the influences of Egypt and thus the last of the Nubian states to be converted to Islam. The conventional date for the final destruction of Alodia is the Funj conquest of the region in the early sixteenth century. Archaeological evidence seems to show that the kingdom was in decline as early as the thirteenth century. Near the end of this century al-Harrani reports that the capital had been moved to Wayula. Later Mamluk emissaries reported that the region was divided among nine rulers.
Alodia seems to have preserved its identity after the Funj conquest and its incorporation into the Kingdom of Sennar. The Alodians, who became known as the Abdallab, revolted under Ajib the Great and formed the semi-autonomous Kingdom of Dongola that persisted for several centuries.
The Funj Sultanate of Sennar (sometimes spelled Sinnar), known in Sudanese traditions as the Blue Sultanate (Arabic: السلطنة الزرقاء; As-Saltana az-Zarqa),[9] was a sultanate in the north of Sudan, named Funj after the ethnic group of its dynasty or Sinnar (or Sennar) after its capital, which ruled a substantial area of northeast Africa between 1504 and 1821.
The turks only controlled the northern sudan,remember they lost in the last half of the SUDAN 1800's and they seem to not have controlled Eritrea or Somalia .
I did not read most of what was said in this thread but i just had to correct this.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Either way, you shouldn't feel threatened, in the grand scheme of things I find that both of you hold extreme views in this case (the ancient Egyptians were of Beja "type" vs. the ancient Egyptians were separated from Beja-speakers for millenia and underwent a separate "evolutionary path").
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Do you even know what alveolar prognathism is?? It is the projection of the dental part of the skull, specifically the front teeth, so YES that does mean 'buck-teeth'! And YES there are plenty of references to Egyptians having that as their most common form of prognathism among them (although there are Egyptians who have maxillary as well as full-frontal prognathisms also)!!![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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