quote:

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The cited paper (Winters, 2014) has avoided, unfortunately, an approval by the Editor-in-Chief, and slipped through to the Journal. The problem is that the paper contains several wrong and many highly questionable statements. As it happens with some authors, they selectively cite some references, often placing quotes out of context, ignore other references and data, which contradict their views. The above is a brief description of the cited article that is grossly misleading.

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This comment considers a paper by C. Winters recently published in Advances in Anthropology, as well as some of his related papers, concerning the “origin of haplogroup R1 in Africa”, “Neanderthals originated in Africa”, “Neanderthals spread from Morocco to East Africa”, “the Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoisan”, and other inventions which do not belong to this Journal.

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quote:

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Overall, the paper represents a collection of assorted quotations and declarations, many of them without any link to the title and/or the main subject of the paper. Most of declarations do not have links to any scientific reference, many of them reflect certain confusions, some references and data are taken out of context and described in a distorted manner.
Here is a typical example of the author’s style and reliability of quotations. In his preceding paper, entitled “Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173” (Winters, 2011) , the author writes: “The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b)… (Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data indicate the successful colonization of Asia by Sub-Saharan Africans from Nubia 5 - 4 kya”. If the reader looks up at the Naidoo et al. paper, it shows that the great majority of R1b-M343 haplotypes were found among South African Whites (81 out of 157), while Khoe-san contain three R1b-M343 haplotypes out of 183. Mr. Winters did not even mention such a discrepancy, which brings a different angle at the data.
Here is another example. In the same paper (Winters, 2011) he writes on “widespread distribution of R1*- M173 in Africa, that ranges between 7% - 95% and averages 39% (Coia et al., 2005) ”. He repeats the same “quotation” in yet another paper (Winters, 2010) ―“The frequency of Y-chromosome R1*-M173 in Africa range between 7% - 95% and averages 39.5% (Coia et al., 2005)”. However, in the referenced paper Coia et al. (2005) describe the frequency of R1*-M173 only in Cameroon, “with the highest frequency in North Cameroon (from 6.7% among the Tali to 95.2% among the Uldeme”. Mr. Winters did not mention that the figures were related not to “widespread distribution in Africa”, but specifically to North Cameroon, which is known since at least 2002(Cruciani et al., 2002, 2010) . In the same manner Mr. Winters “quote” data by Berniell-Lee et al. (2009) , who had reported that 5.2% of R1b1* were identified in Cameroon and neighboring Gabon, and “quote” it as follows “Haplogroup R1b1* is found in Africa…Berniell-Lee et al. (2005) found in their study that 5.2% carried Rb1*” (spelling by Winters, 2011 ). As one sees again, Cameroon and Gabon were not mentioned, only “found in Africa 5.2%…”.
Here is yet another example. According to Winters (2011) , “The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy populations ranged from 1% - 25% (Berniell-Lee et al., 2009) ”. In fact, Figure 1 in the Berniell-Lee et al. paper shows only two individuals having R1b1*, one from Baka tribe (out of 33 tested) in Gabon, and one from Bakola tribe (out of 22 tested) in Cameroon. So much for 1% - 25%. The list of misquotations can go on. That was a basis for the “African origin of R1-M173”.
Let us review an “age” of the R1b1* lineages in Cameroon and Gabon, based on haplotypes listed in (Berniell-Lee et al., 2009) . Figure 1 shows a haplotype tree, which is split into two distinct branches, on the left- and right-hand sides.
The right-hand side branch coalesces to the base (deduced ancestral) haplotype:
13 24 15 11 13 16 12 13 14 13 16 14 11 12 12 11 11 12 11
All 27 haplotypes of the branch contain 81 mutations from the base haplotype. It gives 81/27/0.0243 = 123 à 141 conditional generations (of 25 years each, see Klyosov, 2012 ); that is 3525 ± 530 years from a common ancestor of the branch. Here the arrow shows a correction for back mutations (Klyosov, 2009, 2012) , the margin of error calculated as described in (Klyosov, 2009) .
The left-hand side branch has the following base haplotype:
12 24 15 10 13 15 12 12 14 12 14 14 10 12 12 11 11 12 11
All 19 haplotypes of the branch contain 46 mutations. It gives 46/19/0.0243 = 100 à 111 conditional generations, that is 2775 ± 495 years from a common ancestor of the branch. One can see that the two populations could have migrated to Gabon about the same time (within the margin of error of the calculations), in the I-II millennium BC, and that time was not, of course, the time of “origin” of haplogroup R1. The latter arose around 26,000 years ago, in Central Asia, apparently in South Siberia (Klyosov, 2012) . Indeed, an excavated haplogroup R was recently identified in South Siberia (near the lake of Baikal), with an archaeological date of 24,000 years ago (Balter, 2013;Raghavan et al., 2013) .
In the same manner and style of misquotations and distorted “information”, Mr. Winters continues in his latest paper in Adv. Anthropol. (2014). He writes in the beginning of the paper―“Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin”, and “Klyosov argued that…ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans”. However, this is not the case in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) . The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans. There is nothing in the paper about “back migration of Europeans” to Africa, let alone “pale skinned Europeans”. Those are all inventions of Mr. Winters.
In other words, the paper (Klyosov, 2014) has nothing to do with the title of Mr. Winters article―“Were the first Europeans pale of dark skinned?” Apparently, Mr. Winters was seriously confused.

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Indeed, the paper by Winters (2014) is grossly misleading

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New work [20–22] has addressed the Neolithic transition in Europe by focusing on the main western European Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1b2-M269 (hereafter referred to as R-M269). This lineage had hitherto received little recent attention in this context, although previous work suggested that the broader R-M173 clade (excluding the R1a-M17 sub-lineage) and Haplogroup 1 (derived at single nucleotide polymorphism, or SNP, 92r7) are likely to have spread into Europe during the Palaeolithic [17,18,23], and therefore unlikely to have been carried into Europe with the migrating farmers. Balaresque et al.

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Sub-Saharan African Y chromosome diversity is represented by five main haplogroups (hgs): A, B, E, J, and R (Underhill et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; Tishkoff et al. 2007). Hgs J and R are geographically restricted to eastern and central Africa, respectively, whereas hg E shows a wider continental distribution (see also Berniell-Lee et al. 2009; Cruciani et al. 2010).

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An independent high resolution MSY phylogeny has been recently obtained from 2,870 Y-SNPs discovered (or re- discovered) in the course of a large whole-genome re-sequencing study, but the observed variable sites all belong to the recent ‘‘out of Africa’’ CT clade [15]. Recently, in a re-sequencing study of the Y chromosome, the root of the tree moved to a new position and several changes at the basal nodes of the phylogeny were introduced [16]

[..]


Phylogenetic Mapping

Most of the mutations here analyzed belong to the African portion of the MSY phylogeny, which is comprised of haplogroups A1b, A1a, A2, A3 and B [16]. Through phylogenetic mapping it was possible to identify 15 new African haplogroups and to resolve one basal trifurcation (Figure 1). A new deep branch within the ‘‘out of Africa’’ haplogroup C was also identified (Figure S1).

Haplogroup A1b. The P114 mutation, which defines hap- logroup A1b according to Karafet et al. [14], had been detected in central-western Africa at very low frequencies (in total, three chromosomes from Cameroon) [16,19].

[...]

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1). Six haplogroup C chromosomes (samples 34–39 in Table S1) were analyzed for the eleven haplogroup C- specific mutations [16] and for SNPs defining branches C1 to C6 in the tree by Karafet et al. [14] (Figure S1). Through this analysis we identified a chromosome from southern Europe as a new deep branch within haplogroup C (C-V20 or C7, Figure S1). Previously, only a few examples of C chromosomes (only defined by the marker RPS4Y711) had been found in southern Europe [32,33]. To improve our knowledge regarding the distribution of haplogroup C in Europe, we surveyed 1965 European subjects for the mutation RPS4Y711 and identified one additional haplogroup C chromosome from southern Europe, which has also been classified as C7 (data not shown). Further studies are needed to establish whether C7 chromosomes are the relics of an ancient European gene pool or the signal of a recent geographical spread from Asia. Two mutations, V248 and V87, which had never been previously described, were found to be specific to haplogroups C2 and C3, respectively (Figure S1). Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

[...]

Supporting Information

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).
(TIF)

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does the present MSY tree compare with the backbone of the recently published “reference” MSY phylogeny?13 The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13

[...]

deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites).

[...]


The first branching in the MSY tree has been reported to be the one that separates the African-specific clade A (called clade I in 10) from clade BT (clade II-X in 10), whereas the second branching determines the subdivision of BT in clades B, mostly African, and CT, which comprises the majority of African and all non-African chromosomes.13,14 This branching pattern, along with the geographical distribu- tion of the major clades A, B, and CT, has been interpreted as supporting an African origin for anatomically modern humans,10 with Khoisan from south Africa and Ethiopians from east Africa sharing the deepest lineages of the phylogeny.15,16

[...]

To test the robustness of the backbone and the root of current Y chromosome phylogeny, we searched for SNPs that might be informative in this respect. To this aim, a resequencing analysis of a 205.9 kb MSY portion (183.5 kb in the X-degenerate and 22.4 kb in the X-transposed region) was performed for each of seven chromosomes that are representative of clade A (four chromosomes belonging to haplogroups A1a, A1b, A2, and A3), clade B, and clade CT (two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R) (Table S1 available online).

The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).

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The Y chromosome Alu polymorphism (YAP, also called M1) defines the deep-rooted haplogroup D/E of the global Y-chromosome phylogeny [1]. This D/E haplogroup is further branched into three sub-haplogroups DE*, D and E (Figure 1). The distribution of the D/E haplogroup is highly regional, and the three subgroups are geographically restricted to certain areas, therefore informative in tracing human prehistory (Table 1). The sub-haplogroup DE*, presumably the most ancient lineage of the D/E haplogroup was only found in Africans from Nigeria [2], supporting the "Out of Africa" hypothesis about modern human origin. The sub-haplogroup E (E-M40), defined by M40/SRY4064 and M96, was also suggested originated in Africa [3-6], and later dispersed to Middle East and Europe about 20,000 years ago [3,4]. Interestingly, the sub-haplogroup D defined by M174 (D-M174) is East Asian specific with abundant appearance in Tibetan and Japanese (30–40%), but rare in most of other East Asian populations and populations from regions bordering East Asia (Central Asia, North Asia and Middle East) (usually less than 5%) [5-7]. Under D-M174, Japanese belongs to a separate sub-lineage defined by several mutations (e.g. M55, M57 and M64 etc.), which is different from those in Tibetans implicating relatively deep divergence between them [1]. The fragmented distribution of D-M174 in East Asia seems not consistent with the pattern of other East Asian specific lineages, i.e. O3-M122, O1-M119 and O2-M95 under haplogroup O [8,9].

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Further refinement awaits the finding of new markers especially within paragroup E3a*-M2. The microsatellite profile of the DE* individual is one mutational step away from the allelic state described for Nigerians (DYS390*21, DYS388 not tested; [37], therefore suggesting a common ancestry but not elucidating the phylogenetics.

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There has been considerable debate on the geographic origin of the human Y chromosome Alu polymor- phism (YAP). Here we report a new, very rare deep-rooting haplogroup within the YAP clade, together with data on other deep-rooting YAP clades. The new haplogroup, found so far in only five Nigerians, is the least-derived YAP haplogroup according to currently known binary markers. However, because the interior branching order of the Y chromosome genealogical tree remains unknown, it is impossible to impute the origin of the YAP clade with certainty. We discuss the problems presented by rare deep-rooting lineages for Y chromosome phylogeography.

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Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
[URL] http://file.scirp.org/Html/2-1590439_51973.htm[/URL]

Advances in Anthropology
Vol.04 No.04(2014), Article ID:51973,4 pages
10.4236/aa.2014.44024

"A Comment on the Paper: Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? (by C. Winters, Advances in Anthropology, 2014, 4, 124-132)"


Finally, a peer review of a paper by Clyde Winters, though the journal is Open Access it has peer review unlike most of the journals Winter’s publishes in. The reviewer would have recommended not publishing.

quote:

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The cited paper (Winters, 2014) has avoided, unfortunately, an approval by the Editor-in-Chief, and slipped through to the Journal. The problem is that the paper contains several wrong and many highly questionable statements. As it happens with some authors, they selectively cite some references, often placing quotes out of context, ignore other references and data, which contradict their views. The above is a brief description of the cited article that is grossly misleading.

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The Abstract points out that several related papers, i.e.
Winters, C. (2010). The Kushite spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences, 2, 294-299. and
Winters, C. (2011). Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173. International Journal of Science and Nature, 2, 743-745.
are also problematic.

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This comment considers a paper by C. Winters recently published in Advances in Anthropology, as well as some of his related papers, concerning the “origin of haplogroup R1 in Africa”, “Neanderthals originated in Africa”, “Neanderthals spread from Morocco to East Africa”, “the Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoisan”, and other inventions which do not belong to this Journal.

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.

The most relevant part concerns Winters’s claims about R1-M173

quote:

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Overall, the paper represents a collection of assorted quotations and declarations, many of them without any link to the title and/or the main subject of the paper. Most of declarations do not have links to any scientific reference, many of them reflect certain confusions, some references and data are taken out of context and described in a distorted manner.
Here is a typical example of the author’s style and reliability of quotations. In his preceding paper, entitled “Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173” (Winters, 2011) , the author writes: “The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b)… (Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data indicate the successful colonization of Asia by Sub-Saharan Africans from Nubia 5 - 4 kya”. If the reader looks up at the Naidoo et al. paper, it shows that the great majority of R1b-M343 haplotypes were found among South African Whites (81 out of 157), while Khoe-san contain three R1b-M343 haplotypes out of 183. Mr. Winters did not even mention such a discrepancy, which brings a different angle at the data.
Here is another example. In the same paper (Winters, 2011) he writes on “widespread distribution of R1*- M173 in Africa, that ranges between 7% - 95% and averages 39% (Coia et al., 2005) ”. He repeats the same “quotation” in yet another paper (Winters, 2010) ―“The frequency of Y-chromosome R1*-M173 in Africa range between 7% - 95% and averages 39.5% (Coia et al., 2005)”. However, in the referenced paper Coia et al. (2005) describe the frequency of R1*-M173 only in Cameroon, “with the highest frequency in North Cameroon (from 6.7% among the Tali to 95.2% among the Uldeme”. Mr. Winters did not mention that the figures were related not to “widespread distribution in Africa”, but specifically to North Cameroon, which is known since at least 2002(Cruciani et al., 2002, 2010) . In the same manner Mr. Winters “quote” data by Berniell-Lee et al. (2009) , who had reported that 5.2% of R1b1* were identified in Cameroon and neighboring Gabon, and “quote” it as follows “Haplogroup R1b1* is found in Africa…Berniell-Lee et al. (2005) found in their study that 5.2% carried Rb1*” (spelling by Winters, 2011 ). As one sees again, Cameroon and Gabon were not mentioned, only “found in Africa 5.2%…”.
Here is yet another example. According to Winters (2011) , “The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy populations ranged from 1% - 25% (Berniell-Lee et al., 2009) ”. In fact, Figure 1 in the Berniell-Lee et al. paper shows only two individuals having R1b1*, one from Baka tribe (out of 33 tested) in Gabon, and one from Bakola tribe (out of 22 tested) in Cameroon. So much for 1% - 25%. The list of misquotations can go on. That was a basis for the “African origin of R1-M173”.
Let us review an “age” of the R1b1* lineages in Cameroon and Gabon, based on haplotypes listed in (Berniell-Lee et al., 2009) . Figure 1 shows a haplotype tree, which is split into two distinct branches, on the left- and right-hand sides.
The right-hand side branch coalesces to the base (deduced ancestral) haplotype:
13 24 15 11 13 16 12 13 14 13 16 14 11 12 12 11 11 12 11
All 27 haplotypes of the branch contain 81 mutations from the base haplotype. It gives 81/27/0.0243 = 123 à 141 conditional generations (of 25 years each, see Klyosov, 2012 ); that is 3525 ± 530 years from a common ancestor of the branch. Here the arrow shows a correction for back mutations (Klyosov, 2009, 2012) , the margin of error calculated as described in (Klyosov, 2009) .
The left-hand side branch has the following base haplotype:
12 24 15 10 13 15 12 12 14 12 14 14 10 12 12 11 11 12 11
All 19 haplotypes of the branch contain 46 mutations. It gives 46/19/0.0243 = 100 à 111 conditional generations, that is 2775 ± 495 years from a common ancestor of the branch. One can see that the two populations could have migrated to Gabon about the same time (within the margin of error of the calculations), in the I-II millennium BC, and that time was not, of course, the time of “origin” of haplogroup R1. The latter arose around 26,000 years ago, in Central Asia, apparently in South Siberia (Klyosov, 2012) . Indeed, an excavated haplogroup R was recently identified in South Siberia (near the lake of Baikal), with an archaeological date of 24,000 years ago (Balter, 2013;Raghavan et al., 2013) .
In the same manner and style of misquotations and distorted “information”, Mr. Winters continues in his latest paper in Adv. Anthropol. (2014). He writes in the beginning of the paper―“Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin”, and “Klyosov argued that…ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans”. However, this is not the case in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) . The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans. There is nothing in the paper about “back migration of Europeans” to Africa, let alone “pale skinned Europeans”. Those are all inventions of Mr. Winters.
In other words, the paper (Klyosov, 2014) has nothing to do with the title of Mr. Winters article―“Were the first Europeans pale of dark skinned?” Apparently, Mr. Winters was seriously confused.

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The review ends with

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Indeed, the paper by Winters (2014) is grossly misleading

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Abstract
This is an overview of the Out of Africa (OoA) settlement of Europe during the Aurignacian period.
Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin, and Neanderthal who never lived in Africa. Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa and between 139 kya and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa. The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans
were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans who carried mtDNA haplogroup N and Y-chromosome C6 into
Europe.

Keywords

Haplogroup, Neanderthal, Phenotype, Skeletal, Mousterian, mtDNA, SLC24A5

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quote:

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The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans.

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“Ancestors of the most present-day non-Africans did not come from Africa in the last 30,000 - 600,000 years at least. In other words, those who migrated from Africa, or were forcefully taken out as slaves, are not ancestors of the contemporary Europeans, Asians, Native Americans, Australians, Polynesians. This follows from the whole multitude of data in anthropology, genetics, archaeology, DNA genealogy. Study of the DNA of excavated bones of Neanderthals has shown in them MCR1 melanocortin receptor, in the same variant as that in modern humans, which makes pale skin and red hair, observed in modern humans (Lalueza-Fox et al., 2007), though, according to the study authors, humans did not inherit MCR1 from Neanderthals. There was not any data that Neanderthals were Black Africans. Indeed, no Neanderthals were found in Africa.”

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Strong waves of immigration have not been extensive until now, and the largest area of the island has been managed by the indigenous population through most of its human history – a recent molecular study (CERNY et al. 2009) showed that the Socotrans are not a genetic mixture of immigrants and local people, as previously believed.

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The Soqotra archipelago is one of the most isolated landmasses in the world, situated at the mouth of the Gulf of Aden between the Horn of Africa and southern Arabia. The main island of Soqotra lies not far from the proposed southern migration route of anatomically modern humans out of Africa ∼60,000 years ago (kya), suggesting the island may harbor traces of that first dispersal. Nothing is known about the timing and origin of the first Soqotri settlers. The oldest historical visitors to the island in the 15th century reported only the presence of an ancient population. We collected samples throughout the island and analyzed mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal variation. We found little African influence among the indigenous people of the island. Although the island population likely experienced founder effects, links to the Arabian Peninsula or southwestern Asia can still be found. In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups. Specifically, we identified two high-frequency founder lineages that have not been detected in any other populations and classified them as a new R0a1a1 subclade. Recent expansion of the novel lineages is consistent with a Holocene settlement of the island ∼6 kya.

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
My paper was published in the same journal that published Klyosov (2014) i.e., Winters, C. (2014). Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? Advances in Anthropology, 4,
124-132. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.43016 . As a result, the article was peer reviewed. This paper was not about R1, as noted from the abstract.

quote:

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Abstract
This is an overview of the Out of Africa (OoA) settlement of Europe during the Aurignacian period.
Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin, and Neanderthal who never lived in Africa. Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa and between 139 kya and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa. The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans
were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans who carried mtDNA haplogroup N and Y-chromosome C6 into
Europe.

Keywords

Haplogroup, Neanderthal, Phenotype, Skeletal, Mousterian, mtDNA, SLC24A5

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Klyosov wrote:

quote:

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The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans.

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This was false as I noted in the introduction to my paper.

“Introduction
Were the first Europeans dark or pale skinned? Klyosov (2014), argued that the Neanderthals and ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans. Klyosov (2014) claimed that archaeology and paleoanthropology data of African skeletal material did not tell us much about the origin of African and non-African populations. Finally, Klyosov (2014) argued that that there was no archaeological proof of the appearance of anatomically modern humans (AMH) in Africa dating before 100 kya. He wrote:

quote:

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“Ancestors of the most present-day non-Africans did not come from Africa in the last 30,000 - 600,000 years at least. In other words, those who migrated from Africa, or were forcefully taken out as slaves, are not ancestors of the contemporary Europeans, Asians, Native Americans, Australians, Polynesians. This follows from the whole multitude of data in anthropology, genetics, archaeology, DNA genealogy. Study of the DNA of excavated bones of Neanderthals has shown in them MCR1 melanocortin receptor, in the same variant as that in modern humans, which makes pale skin and red hair, observed in modern humans (Lalueza-Fox et al., 2007), though, according to the study authors, humans did not inherit MCR1 from Neanderthals. There was not any data that Neanderthals were Black Africans. Indeed, no Neanderthals were found in Africa.”

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Although this is the opinion of Klyosov (2014) the archaeological and genetic evidence does not support his conclusion. The skeletal and archaeological evidence made it clear that the first Europeans were probably dark skin, not pale skin.”

In the paper I illustrate that the first Europeans and Neanderthals were Black. He could not refute the evidence so he talked about R1.

.

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

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Strong waves of immigration have not been extensive until now, and the largest area of the island has been managed by the indigenous population through most of its human history – a recent molecular study (CERNY et al. 2009) showed that the Socotrans are not a genetic mixture of immigrants and local people, as previously believed.

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Page 38
http://www.socotraproject.org/userfiles/files/Van%20Damme%20%20Banfield%202011%20Socotra%20Conservation.pdf

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The Soqotra archipelago is one of the most isolated landmasses in the world, situated at the mouth of the Gulf of Aden between the Horn of Africa and southern Arabia. The main island of Soqotra lies not far from the proposed southern migration route of anatomically modern humans out of Africa ∼60,000 years ago (kya), suggesting the island may harbor traces of that first dispersal. Nothing is known about the timing and origin of the first Soqotri settlers. The oldest historical visitors to the island in the 15th century reported only the presence of an ancient population. We collected samples throughout the island and analyzed mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal variation. We found little African influence among the indigenous people of the island. Although the island population likely experienced founder effects, links to the Arabian Peninsula or southwestern Asia can still be found. In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups. Specifically, we identified two high-frequency founder lineages that have not been detected in any other populations and classified them as a new R0a1a1 subclade. Recent expansion of the novel lineages is consistent with a Holocene settlement of the island ∼6 kya.

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--Viktor Černý, Am J Phys Anthropol, 2009

Out of Arabia—The settlement of Island Soqotra as revealed by mitochondrial and Y chromosome genetic diversity

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20960/abstract

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Socotrans


 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

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Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
My paper was published in the same journal that published Klyosov (2014) i.e., Winters, C. (2014). Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? Advances in Anthropology, 4,
124-132. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.43016 . As a result, the article was peer reviewed. This paper was not about R1, as noted from the abstract.

quote:

---

Abstract
This is an overview of the Out of Africa (OoA) settlement of Europe during the Aurignacian period.
Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin, and Neanderthal who never lived in Africa. Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa and between 139 kya and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa. The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans
were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans who carried mtDNA haplogroup N and Y-chromosome C6 into
Europe.

Keywords

Haplogroup, Neanderthal, Phenotype, Skeletal, Mousterian, mtDNA, SLC24A5

---

Klyosov wrote:

quote:

---

The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans.

---

This was false as I noted in the introduction to my paper.

“Introduction
Were the first Europeans dark or pale skinned? Klyosov (2014), argued that the Neanderthals and ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans. Klyosov (2014) claimed that archaeology and paleoanthropology data of African skeletal material did not tell us much about the origin of African and non-African populations. Finally, Klyosov (2014) argued that that there was no archaeological proof of the appearance of anatomically modern humans (AMH) in Africa dating before 100 kya. He wrote:

quote:

---

“Ancestors of the most present-day non-Africans did not come from Africa in the last 30,000 - 600,000 years at least. In other words, those who migrated from Africa, or were forcefully taken out as slaves, are not ancestors of the contemporary Europeans, Asians, Native Americans, Australians, Polynesians. This follows from the whole multitude of data in anthropology, genetics, archaeology, DNA genealogy. Study of the DNA of excavated bones of Neanderthals has shown in them MCR1 melanocortin receptor, in the same variant as that in modern humans, which makes pale skin and red hair, observed in modern humans (Lalueza-Fox et al., 2007), though, according to the study authors, humans did not inherit MCR1 from Neanderthals. There was not any data that Neanderthals were Black Africans. Indeed, no Neanderthals were found in Africa.”

---

Although this is the opinion of Klyosov (2014) the archaeological and genetic evidence does not support his conclusion. The skeletal and archaeological evidence made it clear that the first Europeans were probably dark skin, not pale skin.”

In the paper I illustrate that the first Europeans and Neanderthals were Black. He could not refute the evidence so he talked about R1.

.

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As usual. misdirection to avoid a difficulty. The reviewer was focused on your misquoting sources on R-M173 and dealt with several of your papers i.e.

"A Comment on the Paper: Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? (by C. Winters, Advances in Anthropology, 2014, 4, 124-132)"

Winters, C. (2010). The Kushite spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences, 2, 294-299. and
Winters, C. (2011). Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173. International Journal of Science and Nature, 2, 743-745.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

In the paper I illustrate that the first Europeans and Neanderthals were Black. He could not refute the evidence so he talked about R1.

.

---

quote:

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LOL. How could I have miss quoted any articles when I cited the populations that carried R1-M173. By citing the populations carrying the haplogroup I did not mislead anyone.
.

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But , of course, you misquoted the papers you cited. You argue that R-M-173 is widespread in Africa, that's the main
"fact" justifying your claim of origin. But that is NOT true. You claim that the Khoisan carry R-M173 but the paper actually says that the carriers are white Afrikaners and only 3 of 183 of the Khoisan carry it. That is a misquote of what Naidoo's Paper says.
You claim that R-M173 is widespread in Africa citing Coia's paper as the source, but Coia's makes clear that the data only applies to Cameroon. You again dishonestly attributed your claims to a paper that did not say that. The reality is that R -V88 (not R-M-173 ) is not widely distributed in Africa Cruciani et al. ,which you also misquote says that R-V88 (R-M173 according to you) is not present in East, West or South Africa.

from the review

[QUOTE]Here is a typical example of the author’s style and reliability of quotations. In his preceding paper, entitled “Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173” (Winters, 2011) , the author writes: “The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b)… (Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data indicate the successful colonization of Asia by Sub-Saharan Africans from Nubia 5 - 4 kya”. If the reader looks up at the Naidoo et al. paper, it shows that the great majority of R1b-M343 haplotypes were found among South African Whites (81 out of 157), while Khoe-san contain three R1b-M343 haplotypes out of 183. Mr. Winters did not even mention such a discrepancy, which brings a different angle at the data.
Here is another example. In the same paper (Winters, 2011) he writes on “widespread distribution of R1*- M173 in Africa, that ranges between 7% - 95% and averages 39% (Coia et al., 2005) ”. He repeats the same “quotation” in yet another paper (Winters, 2010) ―“The frequency of Y-chromosome R1*-M173 in Africa range between 7% - 95% and averages 39.5% (Coia et al., 2005)”. However, in the referenced paper Coia et al. (2005) describe the frequency of R1*-M173 only in Cameroon, “with the highest frequency in North Cameroon (from 6.7% among the Tali to 95.2% among the Uldeme”. Mr. Winters did not mention that the figures were related not to “widespread distribution in Africa”, but specifically to North Cameroon, which is known since at least 2002(Cruciani et al., 2002, 2010) . In the same manner Mr. Winters “quote” data by Berniell-Lee et al. (2009) , who had reported that 5.2% of R1b1* were identified in Cameroon and neighboring Gabon, and “quote” it as follows “Haplogroup R1b1* is found in Africa…Berniell-Lee et al. (2005) found in their study that 5.2% carried Rb1*” (spelling by Winters, 2011 ). As one sees again, Cameroon and Gabon were not mentioned, only “found in Africa 5.2%…”.
Here is yet another example. According to Winters (2011) , “The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy populations ranged from 1% - 25% (Berniell-Lee et al., 2009) ”. In fact, Figure 1 in the Berniell-Lee et al. paper shows only two individuals having R1b1*, one from Baka tribe (out of 33 tested) in Gabon, and one from Bakola tribe (out of 22 tested) in Cameroon. So much for 1% - 25%. The list of misquotations can go on. That was a basis for the “African origin of R1-M173”.[\QUOTE]
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Ancestors of R-V88 (ascending order)

M415
M343
M173
M207
 

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Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[qb] My paper was published in the same journal that published Klyosov (2014) i.e., Winters, C. (2014). Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? Advances in Anthropology, 4,
124-132. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.43016 . As a result, the article was peer reviewed. This paper was not about R1, as noted from the abstract.

quote:

---

Abstract
This is an overview of the Out of Africa (OoA) settlement of Europe during the Aurignacian period.
Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin, and Neanderthal who never lived in Africa. Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa and between 139 kya and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa. The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans
were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans who carried mtDNA haplogroup N and Y-chromosome C6 into
Europe.

Keywords

Haplogroup, Neanderthal, Phenotype, Skeletal, Mousterian, mtDNA, SLC24A5

---

Klyosov wrote:

quote:

---

The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans.

---

This was false as I noted in the introduction to my paper.

“Introduction
Were the first Europeans dark or pale skinned? Klyosov (2014), argued that the Neanderthals and ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans. Klyosov (2014) claimed that archaeology and paleoanthropology data of African skeletal material did not tell us much about the origin of African and non-African populations. Finally, Klyosov (2014) argued that that there was no archaeological proof of the appearance of anatomically modern humans (AMH) in Africa dating before 100 kya. He wrote:

quote:

---

“Ancestors of the most present-day non-Africans did not come from Africa in the last 30,000 - 600,000 years at least. In other words, those who migrated from Africa, or were forcefully taken out as slaves, are not ancestors of the contemporary Europeans, Asians, Native Americans, Australians, Polynesians. This follows from the whole multitude of data in anthropology, genetics, archaeology, DNA genealogy. Study of the DNA of excavated bones of Neanderthals has shown in them MCR1 melanocortin receptor, in the same variant as that in modern humans, which makes pale skin and red hair, observed in modern humans (Lalueza-Fox et al., 2007), though, according to the study authors, humans did not inherit MCR1 from Neanderthals. There was not any data that Neanderthals were Black Africans. Indeed, no Neanderthals were found in Africa.”

---

Although this is the opinion of Klyosov (2014) the archaeological and genetic evidence does not support his conclusion. The skeletal and archaeological evidence made it clear that the first Europeans were probably dark skin, not pale skin.”

In the paper I illustrate that the first Europeans and Neanderthals were Black. He could not refute the evidence so he talked about R1.

.

---

]LOL. How could I have miss quoted any articles when I cited the populations that carried R1-M173. By citing the populations carrying the haplogroup I did not mislead anyone.
.

---

quote:

---

In the same manner and style of misquotations and distorted “information”, Mr. Winters continues in his latest paper in Adv. Anthropol. (2014). He writes in the beginning of the paper―“Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin”, and “Klyosov argued that…ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans”. However, this is not the case in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) . The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans. There is nothing in the paper about “back migration of Europeans” to Africa, let alone “pale skinned Europeans”. Those are all inventions of Mr. Winters.
In other words, the paper (Klyosov, 2014) has nothing to do with the title of Mr. Winters article―“Were the first Europeans pale of dark skinned?” Apparently, Mr. Winters was seriously confused. However, Mr. Winters has made several other statements, some of them worth consideration in this Comment; seven of them are as follows:
1) “Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa” (no reference given).

Figure 1. The tree is composed of 46 of 19-marker haplotypes of haplogroup R1b1*, 44 of them from Gabon, and two (the Pygmy individuals) from Cameroon (both are on the right-hand side). The haplotype tree was composed using software PHYLIP, Phylogeny Inference Package program (Felsenstein, 2004) and MEGA, Molecular Evolutionary Genetics Analysis, Version 6.0 (Tamura et al., 2013) . The haplotypes employ the following markers: DYS 393, 390, 19, 391, 385a, 385b, 388, 439, 389-1, 393, 389-2, 437, 460, 438, 436, 462, 434, 461, 435.
2) “Between 139 and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa (Ki-Zerbo, 1981: p. 572)”.
3) “The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans” (no reference given).
4) “Sub-Saharan Africans…carried Y-chromosome C6 into Europe” (no reference given).
5) “The archaeological research makes it clear Neanderthal probably mixed with Africans” (no reference given).
6) “The Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoisan (Boule & Vallois, 1957) ”.
7) “The archaeological and craniometric evidence indicates that the pre-Indo-European people were probably highly pigmented” (no reference given).
Let me explain:
Item 1. I would be delighted to learn of that “archaeological evidence”, that “Neanderthals originated in Africa”. However, alas, there was no reference provided. On the contrary, there are sufficient references that essentially repeat this: “Neanderthals, Homo Neanderthalensis, lived between 350,000 and 24,500 ya, throughout Europe and the Middle East, but…no Neanderthals fossils have yet been found in Africa” (Fuerle, 2008) .
Here is an another quotation, from a paper on genome studies: “Our analysis of human-Neandertal data…confirms previous claims that Neandertals contributed genetically to contemporary Eurasian populations (Green et al., 2010; Sankararaman et al., 2012; Yang et al., 2012) . However, in contrast to previous studies we can conclusively reject long-term population structure in the ancestral African population as an alternative explanation for the excess sharing of derived mutations by Neandertals and Eurasians” (Lohse & Frantz, 2014) .
Since Mr. Winters often cites the book “Fossil Men” by Boule and Vallois (1957) , it would be appropriate to note that in the sizeable chapter “Neandertal Man” (pp. 193-258) the word “Africa” is mentioned only once, in the Conclusions section, in a negative context, that Neanderthals are “very different…from the Eskimoes, the Fuegians, the Bushmen, the Pygmies, African or Asiatic, the Veddas, the Polynesians, the Melanesians, and even from the Australians, with whom attempts at comparison have often been made” (p. 252).
Item 2. Comments in Item 1 show that “spread from Morocco to East Africa” for Neanderthals after “between 139 and 125 kya” is not supported by any archaeological or other data.
Item 3. The archaeological and anthropological” evidence cannot witness the “dark skin” color of “the first Europeans”, much less that they were “Sub-Saharan Africans”. No wonder that no reference was provided. Regarding genetic data, all that they have shown is that “both Loschbour and Stuttgart had dark hair…and Loschbour, like La Braña and Motala12, probably had blue or light colored eyes…whereas Stuttgart probably had brown eyes. Neither Loschbour nor La Braña carries the skin-lightening allele in SLC24A5…” (Lazaridis et al., 2014) . They were not “the first Europeans”, they lived 7000 - 8000 ya. Regarding the first Europeans, there is no genetic data available, and archaeological data on excavated bones do not (and cannot) say anything on their skin color.
Item 4. There is no data that haplogroup/subclade C6 was brought to Europe by “Sub-Saharan Africans”. No wonder that a reference was not provided.
Item 5. There is no archaeological research which “makes it clear” that “Neanderthal probably mixed with Africans”. Neither “clear”, nor “probably”. Genetics does not show such a connection(Vernot & Akey, 2014; Reyes-Centeno et al., 2014; Sankararaman et al., 2014; Lohse & Frantz, 2014) .
Item 6. The statement that “The Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoisan” cannot be considered seriously without more direct data than a reference related to 1915 as “Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast ‘associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type of industry” (Boule & Vallois, 1957: p. 319) .
Item 7. There is no “archaeological and craniometric evidence” that can possibly indicate that “the pre-In- do-European people were probably highly pigmented”. Again, no wonder that a reference was not provided.
Indeed, the paper by Winters (2014) is grossly misleading.


References
1. Balter, M. (2013) . Ancient DNA links Native Americans with Europe. Science, 342, 409-410. http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.342.6157.409
2. Berniell-Lee, G., Calafell, F., Bosch, E., Heyer, E., Sica, L., Mouguiama-Daouda, P., van der Veen, L., Hombert, J.-M., et al. (2009). Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 26, 1581-1589. http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msp069
3. Boule, M., & Vallois, H. V. (1957). Fossil Men. The Dryden Press, New York, 535 p.
4. Coia, V., Destro-Bisol, G., Verginelli, F., Battagia, C., Boschi, I., Cruciani, F., Spedini, G., Comas, D., & Calafell, F. (2005). Brief Communication: mtDNA Variation in North Cameroon: Lack of Asian Lineages and Implications for Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 128, 678-681.http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/ajpa.20138
5. Cruciani, F., Santolamazza, P., Shen, P., Makaulay, V., Moral, P., Olckers. A., Modiano, D., Holmes, S., et al. (2002). A back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes. The American Journal of Human Genetics, 70, 1197-1214. http://dx.doi.org/10.1086/340257
6. Cruciani, F., Trombetta, B., Sellitto, D., Massaia, A., Destro-Bisol, G., Watson, E., Colomb, B. E., Dugoujon, J. M., Moral, P., & Scozzari, R. (2010). Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup R-V88: A Paternal Genetic Record of Early Mid Holocene Trans-Saharan Connections and the Spread of Chadic Languages. European Journal of Human Genetics, 18, 800-807. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
7. Felsenstein, J. (2004). PHYLIP (Phylogeny Inference Package). Seattle, WA: Department of Genome Sciences, University of Washington.
8. Fuerle, R. D. (2008). Erectus Walks among Us. New York: Spooner Press, 340 p.
9. Green, R. E., Krause, J., Briggs, A. W., Maricic, T., Stenzel, U., et al. (2010). A Draft Sequence of the Neanderthal Genome. Science, 328, 710-722.
10. Klyosov, A . A. (2009). DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome. I. Basic Principles and the Method. Journal of Genetic Genealogy, 5, 186-216.
11. Klyosov, A. A. (2012). Ancient History of the Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroup R1b, from Central Asia to Europe, 16,000 to 1500 Years before Present. Advances in Anthropology, 2, 87-105. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2012.22010
12. Klyosov, A. A. (2014). Reconsideration of the “Out of Africa” Concept as Not Having Enough Proof. Advances in Anthropology, 4, 18-37.http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.41004
13. Lazaridis, I., Patterson, N., Mittnik, A., Renaud, G., Mallick, S., Kirsanow, K., Sudmant, P. H., Schraiber, J. G., et al. (2014) Ancient Human Genomes Suggest Three Ancestral Populations for Present-Day Europeans. Nature, 513, 409-413.http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature13673
14. Lohse, K., & Frantz, L. A. F. (2014). Neandertal Admixture in Eurasia Confirmed by Maximum-Likelihood Analysis of Three Genomes. Genetics, 196, 1241-1251.http://dx.doi.org/10.1534/genetics.114.162396
15. Naidoo, T., Schlebusch, C. M., Makkan, H., Patel, P., Mahabeer, R., Erasmus, J. C., & Soodyall, H. (2010). Development of a Single Base Extension Method to Resolve Y Chromosome Haplogroups in Sub-Saharan African Populations. Investigative Genetics, 1, 1-11. http://dx.doi.org/10.1186/2041-2223-1-6
16. Raghavan, M., Skoglund, P., Graf, K. E., Metspalu, M., Albrechtsen, A., Moltke, I., et al. (2013). Upper Palaeolithic Siberian Genome Reveals Dual Ancestry of Native Americans. Nature, 505, 87-91. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature12736
17. Reyes-Centeno, H., Ghirotto, S., Detroit, F., Grimaud-Herve, D., Barbujani, G., & Harvati, K. (2014). Genomic and Cranial Phenotype Data Support Multiple Modern Human Dispersals from Africa and a Southern Route into Asia. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 111, 7248-7253.http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1323666111
18. Sankararaman, S., Mallick, S., Dannemann, M., Prüfer, K., Kelso, J., Pääbo, S., Patterson, N., & Reich, D. (2014). The Genomic Landscape of Neanderthal Ancestry in Present-Day Humans. Nature, 507, 354-357. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature12961
19. Tamura, K., Stecher, G., Peterson, D., Filipski, A., & Kumar, S. (2013). MEGA6: Molecular Evolutionary Genetics Analysis Version 6.0. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 30, 2725-2729. http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/molbev/mst197
20. Vernot, B., & Akey, J. M. (2014). Resurrecting Surviving Neandertal Lineages from Modern Human Genomes. Science, 343, 1017-1021.http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1245938
21. Winters, C. (2010). The Kushite spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences, 2, 294-299.
22. Winters, C. (2011). Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173. International Journal of Science and Nature, 2, 743-745.
23. Winters, C. (2014). Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? Advances in Anthropology, 4, 124-132. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.43016
24. Yang, M. A., Malaspinas, A.-S., Durand, E. Y., & Slatkin, M. (2012). Ancient Structure in Africa Unlikely to Explain Neanderthal and Non-African Genetic Similarity. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 29, 2987-2995. http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/molbev/mss117

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


Ancestors of R-V88 (ascending order)

M415
M343
M173
M207

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


Ancestors of R-V88 (ascending order)

M415
M343
M173
M207

---

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
Exactly my point. European L11 is, what, 5 mutational steps below R-V88

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
European L11 is, what, 5 mutational steps below R-V88

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quote:

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Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[qb] My paper was published in the same journal that published Klyosov (2014) i.e., Winters, C. (2014). Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? Advances in Anthropology, 4,
124-132. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.43016 . As a result, the article was peer reviewed. This paper was not about R1, as noted from the abstract.

quote:

---

Abstract
This is an overview of the Out of Africa (OoA) settlement of Europe during the Aurignacian period.
Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin, and Neanderthal who never lived in Africa. Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa and between 139 kya and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa. The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans
were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans who carried mtDNA haplogroup N and Y-chromosome C6 into
Europe.

Keywords

Haplogroup, Neanderthal, Phenotype, Skeletal, Mousterian, mtDNA, SLC24A5

---

Klyosov wrote:

quote:

---

The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans.

---

This was false as I noted in the introduction to my paper.

“Introduction
Were the first Europeans dark or pale skinned? Klyosov (2014), argued that the Neanderthals and ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans. Klyosov (2014) claimed that archaeology and paleoanthropology data of African skeletal material did not tell us much about the origin of African and non-African populations. Finally, Klyosov (2014) argued that that there was no archaeological proof of the appearance of anatomically modern humans (AMH) in Africa dating before 100 kya. He wrote:

quote:

---

“Ancestors of the most present-day non-Africans did not come from Africa in the last 30,000 - 600,000 years at least. In other words, those who migrated from Africa, or were forcefully taken out as slaves, are not ancestors of the contemporary Europeans, Asians, Native Americans, Australians, Polynesians. This follows from the whole multitude of data in anthropology, genetics, archaeology, DNA genealogy. Study of the DNA of excavated bones of Neanderthals has shown in them MCR1 melanocortin receptor, in the same variant as that in modern humans, which makes pale skin and red hair, observed in modern humans (Lalueza-Fox et al., 2007), though, according to the study authors, humans did not inherit MCR1 from Neanderthals. There was not any data that Neanderthals were Black Africans. Indeed, no Neanderthals were found in Africa.”

---

Although this is the opinion of Klyosov (2014) the archaeological and genetic evidence does not support his conclusion. The skeletal and archaeological evidence made it clear that the first Europeans were probably dark skin, not pale skin.”

In the paper I illustrate that the first Europeans and Neanderthals were Black. He could not refute the evidence so he talked about R1.

.

---

]LOL. How could I have miss quoted any articles when I cited the populations that carried R1-M173. By citing the populations carrying the haplogroup I did not mislead anyone.
.

---

First, the reviewer of your article was anonymous ,chosen by the editor of the Journal, not Klysov. And, contrary to what you said that the reviewer could not deal with your Neanderthal stuff-- he did as well as some more on your R-M173 as follows:

quote:

---

In the same manner and style of misquotations and distorted “information”, Mr. Winters continues in his latest paper in Adv. Anthropol. (2014). He writes in the beginning of the paper―“Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin”, and “Klyosov argued that…ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans”. However, this is not the case in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) . The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans. There is nothing in the paper about “back migration of Europeans” to Africa, let alone “pale skinned Europeans”. Those are all inventions of Mr. Winters.
In other words, the paper (Klyosov, 2014) has nothing to do with the title of Mr. Winters article―“Were the first Europeans pale of dark skinned?” Apparently, Mr. Winters was seriously confused. However, Mr. Winters has made several other statements, some of them worth consideration in this Comment; seven of them are as follows:
1) “Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa” (no reference given).

Figure 1. The tree is composed of 46 of 19-marker haplotypes of haplogroup R1b1*, 44 of them from Gabon, and two (the Pygmy individuals) from Cameroon (both are on the right-hand side). The haplotype tree was composed using software PHYLIP, Phylogeny Inference Package program (Felsenstein, 2004) and MEGA, Molecular Evolutionary Genetics Analysis, Version 6.0 (Tamura et al., 2013) . The haplotypes employ the following markers: DYS 393, 390, 19, 391, 385a, 385b, 388, 439, 389-1, 393, 389-2, 437, 460, 438, 436, 462, 434, 461, 435.
2) “Between 139 and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa (Ki-Zerbo, 1981: p. 572)”.
3) “The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans” (no reference given).
4) “Sub-Saharan Africans…carried Y-chromosome C6 into Europe” (no reference given).
5) “The archaeological research makes it clear Neanderthal probably mixed with Africans” (no reference given).
6) “The Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoisan (Boule & Vallois, 1957) ”.
7) “The archaeological and craniometric evidence indicates that the pre-Indo-European people were probably highly pigmented” (no reference given).
Let me explain:
Item 1. I would be delighted to learn of that “archaeological evidence”, that “Neanderthals originated in Africa”. However, alas, there was no reference provided. On the contrary, there are sufficient references that essentially repeat this: “Neanderthals, Homo Neanderthalensis, lived between 350,000 and 24,500 ya, throughout Europe and the Middle East, but…no Neanderthals fossils have yet been found in Africa” (Fuerle, 2008) .
Here is an another quotation, from a paper on genome studies: “Our analysis of human-Neandertal data…confirms previous claims that Neandertals contributed genetically to contemporary Eurasian populations (Green et al., 2010; Sankararaman et al., 2012; Yang et al., 2012) . However, in contrast to previous studies we can conclusively reject long-term population structure in the ancestral African population as an alternative explanation for the excess sharing of derived mutations by Neandertals and Eurasians” (Lohse & Frantz, 2014) .
Since Mr. Winters often cites the book “Fossil Men” by Boule and Vallois (1957) , it would be appropriate to note that in the sizeable chapter “Neandertal Man” (pp. 193-258) the word “Africa” is mentioned only once, in the Conclusions section, in a negative context, that Neanderthals are “very different…from the Eskimoes, the Fuegians, the Bushmen, the Pygmies, African or Asiatic, the Veddas, the Polynesians, the Melanesians, and even from the Australians, with whom attempts at comparison have often been made” (p. 252).
Item 2. Comments in Item 1 show that “spread from Morocco to East Africa” for Neanderthals after “between 139 and 125 kya” is not supported by any archaeological or other data.
Item 3. The archaeological and anthropological” evidence cannot witness the “dark skin” color of “the first Europeans”, much less that they were “Sub-Saharan Africans”. No wonder that no reference was provided. Regarding genetic data, all that they have shown is that “both Loschbour and Stuttgart had dark hair…and Loschbour, like La Braña and Motala12, probably had blue or light colored eyes…whereas Stuttgart probably had brown eyes. Neither Loschbour nor La Braña carries the skin-lightening allele in SLC24A5…” (Lazaridis et al., 2014) . They were not “the first Europeans”, they lived 7000 - 8000 ya. Regarding the first Europeans, there is no genetic data available, and archaeological data on excavated bones do not (and cannot) say anything on their skin color.
Item 4. There is no data that haplogroup/subclade C6 was brought to Europe by “Sub-Saharan Africans”. No wonder that a reference was not provided.
Item 5. There is no archaeological research which “makes it clear” that “Neanderthal probably mixed with Africans”. Neither “clear”, nor “probably”. Genetics does not show such a connection(Vernot & Akey, 2014; Reyes-Centeno et al., 2014; Sankararaman et al., 2014; Lohse & Frantz, 2014) .
Item 6. The statement that “The Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoisan” cannot be considered seriously without more direct data than a reference related to 1915 as “Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast ‘associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type of industry” (Boule & Vallois, 1957: p. 319) .
Item 7. There is no “archaeological and craniometric evidence” that can possibly indicate that “the pre-In- do-European people were probably highly pigmented”. Again, no wonder that a reference was not provided.
Indeed, the paper by Winters (2014) is grossly misleading.


References
1. Balter, M. (2013) . Ancient DNA links Native Americans with Europe. Science, 342, 409-410. http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.342.6157.409
2. Berniell-Lee, G., Calafell, F., Bosch, E., Heyer, E., Sica, L., Mouguiama-Daouda, P., van der Veen, L., Hombert, J.-M., et al. (2009). Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 26, 1581-1589. http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msp069
3. Boule, M., & Vallois, H. V. (1957). Fossil Men. The Dryden Press, New York, 535 p.
4. Coia, V., Destro-Bisol, G., Verginelli, F., Battagia, C., Boschi, I., Cruciani, F., Spedini, G., Comas, D., & Calafell, F. (2005). Brief Communication: mtDNA Variation in North Cameroon: Lack of Asian Lineages and Implications for Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 128, 678-681.http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/ajpa.20138
5. Cruciani, F., Santolamazza, P., Shen, P., Makaulay, V., Moral, P., Olckers. A., Modiano, D., Holmes, S., et al. (2002). A back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes. The American Journal of Human Genetics, 70, 1197-1214. http://dx.doi.org/10.1086/340257
6. Cruciani, F., Trombetta, B., Sellitto, D., Massaia, A., Destro-Bisol, G., Watson, E., Colomb, B. E., Dugoujon, J. M., Moral, P., & Scozzari, R. (2010). Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup R-V88: A Paternal Genetic Record of Early Mid Holocene Trans-Saharan Connections and the Spread of Chadic Languages. European Journal of Human Genetics, 18, 800-807. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
7. Felsenstein, J. (2004). PHYLIP (Phylogeny Inference Package). Seattle, WA: Department of Genome Sciences, University of Washington.
8. Fuerle, R. D. (2008). Erectus Walks among Us. New York: Spooner Press, 340 p.
9. Green, R. E., Krause, J., Briggs, A. W., Maricic, T., Stenzel, U., et al. (2010). A Draft Sequence of the Neanderthal Genome. Science, 328, 710-722.
10. Klyosov, A . A. (2009). DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome. I. Basic Principles and the Method. Journal of Genetic Genealogy, 5, 186-216.
11. Klyosov, A. A. (2012). Ancient History of the Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroup R1b, from Central Asia to Europe, 16,000 to 1500 Years before Present. Advances in Anthropology, 2, 87-105. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2012.22010
12. Klyosov, A. A. (2014). Reconsideration of the “Out of Africa” Concept as Not Having Enough Proof. Advances in Anthropology, 4, 18-37.http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.41004
13. Lazaridis, I., Patterson, N., Mittnik, A., Renaud, G., Mallick, S., Kirsanow, K., Sudmant, P. H., Schraiber, J. G., et al. (2014) Ancient Human Genomes Suggest Three Ancestral Populations for Present-Day Europeans. Nature, 513, 409-413.http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature13673
14. Lohse, K., & Frantz, L. A. F. (2014). Neandertal Admixture in Eurasia Confirmed by Maximum-Likelihood Analysis of Three Genomes. Genetics, 196, 1241-1251.http://dx.doi.org/10.1534/genetics.114.162396
15. Naidoo, T., Schlebusch, C. M., Makkan, H., Patel, P., Mahabeer, R., Erasmus, J. C., & Soodyall, H. (2010). Development of a Single Base Extension Method to Resolve Y Chromosome Haplogroups in Sub-Saharan African Populations. Investigative Genetics, 1, 1-11. http://dx.doi.org/10.1186/2041-2223-1-6
16. Raghavan, M., Skoglund, P., Graf, K. E., Metspalu, M., Albrechtsen, A., Moltke, I., et al. (2013). Upper Palaeolithic Siberian Genome Reveals Dual Ancestry of Native Americans. Nature, 505, 87-91. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature12736
17. Reyes-Centeno, H., Ghirotto, S., Detroit, F., Grimaud-Herve, D., Barbujani, G., & Harvati, K. (2014). Genomic and Cranial Phenotype Data Support Multiple Modern Human Dispersals from Africa and a Southern Route into Asia. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 111, 7248-7253.http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1323666111
18. Sankararaman, S., Mallick, S., Dannemann, M., Prüfer, K., Kelso, J., Pääbo, S., Patterson, N., & Reich, D. (2014). The Genomic Landscape of Neanderthal Ancestry in Present-Day Humans. Nature, 507, 354-357. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature12961
19. Tamura, K., Stecher, G., Peterson, D., Filipski, A., & Kumar, S. (2013). MEGA6: Molecular Evolutionary Genetics Analysis Version 6.0. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 30, 2725-2729. http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/molbev/mst197
20. Vernot, B., & Akey, J. M. (2014). Resurrecting Surviving Neandertal Lineages from Modern Human Genomes. Science, 343, 1017-1021.http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1245938
21. Winters, C. (2010). The Kushite spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences, 2, 294-299.
22. Winters, C. (2011). Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173. International Journal of Science and Nature, 2, 743-745.
23. Winters, C. (2014). Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? Advances in Anthropology, 4, 124-132. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.43016
24. Yang, M. A., Malaspinas, A.-S., Durand, E. Y., & Slatkin, M. (2012). Ancient Structure in Africa Unlikely to Explain Neanderthal and Non-African Genetic Similarity. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 29, 2987-2995. http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/molbev/mss117

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
Oooookkkkk!! What paper states R1b has highest diversity OUTSIDE Africa cf to IN Africa?

Busby refused to peform or at least disclose a latitudinal analyis which would help resolve this. So all we have left is the Phylotree. So we are back to Wood et al.

---

http://adamsfamilydna.com/haplogroup-r1b-r1b1a2a1a1b4f-subclade-l21/
It has since been proven that R1b haplotypes displayed higher microsatellite diversity in Anatolia and in the Caucasus than in Europe.

R1b almost certainly crossed over from northern Anatolia to the Pontic-Caspian steppe. It is not clear whether this happened before, during or after the Neolithic. A regular flow of R1b across the Caucasus cannot be excluded either. The genetic diversity of R1b being greater around the Caucasus, it is hard to deny that R1b settled and evolved there before entering the steppe world.

________________________________________


Africa as compared to the Near East and Europe has the lowest diversity of Y-DNA haplogroup R and mtDNA H

again

Africa as compared to the Near East and Europe has the lowest diversity of Y-DNA haplogroup R and mtDNA H
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Lioness! Lioness! Lioness! What you posted there supports my point of view. R-V88, M335, P297 are paragroups in THAT PhyloTree. The Pontic Steppe is a sub-clade(downstream) of African R-V88.

Further. I need a peer-reviewed source. NOT from a blogger. I need a paper that states all African version of R1b is less diverse than Eurasian R1b. We need to compare apples-apples. Otherwise you are wasting band-width. Busby refused to share his data that would have resolved this. So all we are left with is a PhyloTree…Wood et al
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
And if I was a betting man I would bet that R1b-M269 of the Pontic Steppes is of a different type to L11 as suggested in Busby et al 2012. The authors of the Pontic Steppe confirmed that the R1b is NOT the same type as the R1b-M269 found in Western Europeans. Don’t you read?.......woman!


Remember Busby stated R1b-M269 found in Eastern Europe/Middle East is the R1b-M269(xS127/L11) NOT the West European version. Apples and apples Lioness!

This is all coming together.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

The Pontic Steppe is a sub-clade(downstream) of African R-V88.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Quiet jackass I'm not talking to you, xyyman is talking about Hgs not alleles.
His concept is that white Europeans are depigmenated Africans, not Central Asians and their ancestors lived in Africa less than 5,000 years ago so that's the "we" you are a part of.
To say that that chart is stupid means you are stupid

---

LOL at Low Level Thinker.

Hg's are based on alleles. Speaking of quite a jackass.
 

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Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
CLyde says:
Of course Klyosov would not have published a paper that shows he is a novice when it comes to population genetics, and the reality the first amh were Black Africans--not whites, as he claims in his numerous misleading papers.

We have discussed other papers by Klyosov on this forum , see: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=007044;p=1

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
LOL at the above. Low level thinking. LOL We are talking about deep clades of alleles. You come here with stupid charts. SMH

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
CLyde says:
Of course Klyosov would not have published a paper that shows he is a novice when it comes to population genetics, and the reality the first amh were Black Africans--not whites, as he claims in his numerous misleading papers.

We have discussed other papers by Klyosov on this forum , see: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=007044;p=1

---

The link to the peer review is http://file.scirp.org/Html/2-1590439_51973.htm

The link that is dead is to Clyde Winters 2011 paper because that journal has gone out of business.

All of you are barking up the wrong tree. The peer review IS NOT BY KLYSOLOV. The view deals with Winters's misquoting sources and not presenting evidence for his claims.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This paper as I said earlier does not falsify anything. He was able to dispute the research that shows the first Europeans were not pale,he could not dispute the fact that neither Loschbour nor La Braña carries the skin-lightening allele in SLC24A5…” (Lazaridis et al., 2014), nor was he able to show that the Neanderthal were pale-skinned. Moreover, he did not cite any articles that dispute Boule & Vallois, 1957 research that the Khoisan were the first Europeans.

The rest of the article is his discussion of Africans not being the first anatomically modern humans (amh). This view is not accepted by any modern researchers.Also, I did not mention Indo-Europeans in my paper.

Given the evidence his paper is nothing more than noise, saying nothing relevant. To falsify an article you have to present abundant counter evidence. Any serious reading of this paper will show that the claims in the paper are based on personal opinion not factual and reliable research. he ask the reader to take his word that what he wrote is accurate, in reality it is baseless, and mere ramblings of a man who is living in the past, afraid to admit that the white supremacist ideas he was taught in the past about ancient history are myths.

---

quote:

---

The cited paper (Winters, 2014) has avoided, unfortunately, an approval by the Editor-in-Chief, and slipped through to the Journal.

---

quote:

---

Here is a typical example of the author’s style and reliability of quotations. In his preceding paper, entitled “Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173” (Winters, 2011), the author writes: “The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b)… (Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data indicate the successful colonization of Asia by Sub-Saharan Africans from Nubia 5 -4 kya”. If the reader looks up at the Naidoo et al. paper, it shows that the great majority of R1b-M343 haplotypes were found among South African Whites (81 out of 157), while Khoe-san contain three R1b-M343 haplotypes out of 183. Mr. Winters did not even mention such a discrepancy, which brings a different angle at the data.
Here is another example. In the same paper (Winters, 2011) he writes on “widespread distribution of R1*- M173 in Africa, that ranges between 7% - 95% and averages 39% (Coia et al., 2005) ”. He repeats the same “quotation” in yet another paper (Winters, 2010) ―“The frequency of Y-chromosome R1*-M173 in Africa range between 7% - 95% and averages 39.5% (Coia et al., 2005)”. However, in the referenced paper Coia et al. (2005) describe the frequency of R1*-M173 only in Cameroon, “with the highest frequency in North Cameroon (from 6.7% among the Tali to 95.2% among the Uldeme”. Mr. Winters did not mention that the figures were related not to “widespread distribution in Africa”, but specifically to North Cameroon, which is known since at least 2002(Cruciani et al., 2002, 2010) . In the same manner Mr. Winters “quote” data by Berniell-Lee et al. (2009), who had reported that 5.2% of R1b1* were identified in Cameroon and neighboring Gabon, and “quote” it as follows “Haplogroup R1b1* is found in Africa…Berniell-Lee et al. (2005) found in their study that 5.2% carried Rb1*” (spelling by Winters, 2011). As one sees again, Cameroon and Gabon were not mentioned, only “found in Africa 5.2%…”.
Here is yet another example. According to Winters (2011) , “The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy populations ranged from 1% - 25% (Berniell-Lee et al., 2009) ”. In fact, Figure 1 in the Berniell-Lee et al. paper shows only two individuals having R1b1*, one from Baka tribe (out of 33 tested) in Gabon, and one from Bakola tribe (out of 22 tested) in Cameroon. So much for 1% - 25%. The list of misquotations can go on. That was a basis for the “African origin of R1-M173”.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
CLyde says:
Of course Klyosov would not have published a paper that shows he is a novice when it comes to population genetics, and the reality the first amh were Black Africans--not whites, as he claims in his numerous misleading papers.

We have discussed other papers by Klyosov on this forum , see: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=007044;p=1

---

The link to the peer review is http://file.scirp.org/Html/2-1590439_51973.htm

The link that is dead is to Clyde Winters 2011 paper because that journal has gone out of business.

All of you are barking up the wrong tree. The peer review IS NOT BY KLYSOLOV. The view deals with Winters's misquoting sources and not presenting evidence for his claims.

---

LOL. You are very confused. The paper was written by Klysolov. hahahaha

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
CLyde says:
Of course Klyosov would not have published a paper that shows he is a novice when it comes to population genetics, and the reality the first amh were Black Africans--not whites, as he claims in his numerous misleading papers.

We have discussed other papers by Klyosov on this forum , see: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=007044;p=1

---

The link to the peer review is http://file.scirp.org/Html/2-1590439_51973.htm

The link that is dead is to Clyde Winters 2011 paper because that journal has gone out of business.

All of you are barking up the wrong tree. The peer review IS NOT BY KLYSOLOV. The view deals with Winters's misquoting sources and not presenting evidence for his claims.

---

LOL. You are very confused. The paper was written by Klysolov. hahahaha

.

---

More attempts to distract attention from the fact that you misquote papers all the time and you got caught in something that got published and will remain and not disappear as blogs and websites often do.

Exactly how do you know, other than some conspiracy theory, that Klysonov wrote the review? and how does that alter the fact that you misquoted?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This paper as I said earlier does not falsify anything. He was able to dispute the research that shows the first Europeans were not pale,he could not dispute the fact that neither Loschbour nor La Braña carries the skin-lightening allele in SLC24A5…” (Lazaridis et al., 2014), nor was he able to show that the Neanderthal were pale-skinned. Moreover, he did not cite any articles that dispute Boule & Vallois, 1957 research that the Khoisan were the first Europeans.

The rest of the article is his discussion of Africans not being the first anatomically modern humans (amh). This view is not accepted by any modern researchers.Also, I did not mention Indo-Europeans in my paper.

Given the evidence his paper is nothing more than noise, saying nothing relevant. To falsify an article you have to present abundant counter evidence. Any serious reading of this paper will show that the claims in the paper are based on personal opinion not factual and reliable research. he ask the reader to take his word that what he wrote is accurate, in reality it is baseless, and mere ramblings of a man who is living in the past, afraid to admit that the white supremacist ideas he was taught in the past about ancient history are myths.

---

Predictably, you have flooded the discussion group with irrelevant threads of spam (Dravidians, the plot of INdutvas, etc.) as a diversion from answering the real criticism in the peer review of your article

1) The reviewer is NOT Klysonov. You don't know anything about the reviewer so your ad hominems about him or her are wastes space.

2) In order to falsify something the first requirement is that there BE something to falsify. It is YOUR job to put together evidence to justify your claim. What the reviewer is pointing out is that you have not presented anything to falsify because your "data" consists of misquoting papers.

3) Apparently you know nothing about peer review. The job is NOT to "disprove the paper being reviewed. It is to see if the paper presents sufficient evidence supporting the claims, whether the results are something new, whether it is appropriate for the journal in question, whether it is important enough to be published, whether the documentation, footnoting, and coverage of the literature is sufficient. What the reviewer is pointing out is that to quote the review

quote:

---

The cited paper (Winters, 2014) has avoided, unfortunately, an approval by the Editor-in-Chief, and slipped through to the Journal.

---

i.e. that if this paper had had a peer review before publication, as is the usual case, it would not have been published at all.

4) Here there and everywhere you have claimed that R-M173 is "widespread in Africa" but this is not true and you have not presented evidence that it is. You have cited papers about a narrow area of Africa that has R-V88 and pretended that these papers supported your claim of a wide distribution. From the review:

quote:

---

Here is a typical example of the author’s style and reliability of quotations. In his preceding paper, entitled “Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173” (Winters, 2011), the author writes: “The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b)… (Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data indicate the successful colonization of Asia by Sub-Saharan Africans from Nubia 5 -4 kya”. If the reader looks up at the Naidoo et al. paper, it shows that the great majority of R1b-M343 haplotypes were found among South African Whites (81 out of 157), while Khoe-san contain three R1b-M343 haplotypes out of 183. Mr. Winters did not even mention such a discrepancy, which brings a different angle at the data.
Here is another example. In the same paper (Winters, 2011) he writes on “widespread distribution of R1*- M173 in Africa, that ranges between 7% - 95% and averages 39% (Coia et al., 2005) ”. He repeats the same “quotation” in yet another paper (Winters, 2010) ―“The frequency of Y-chromosome R1*-M173 in Africa range between 7% - 95% and averages 39.5% (Coia et al., 2005)”. However, in the referenced paper Coia et al. (2005) describe the frequency of R1*-M173 only in Cameroon, “with the highest frequency in North Cameroon (from 6.7% among the Tali to 95.2% among the Uldeme”. Mr. Winters did not mention that the figures were related not to “widespread distribution in Africa”, but specifically to North Cameroon, which is known since at least 2002(Cruciani et al., 2002, 2010) . In the same manner Mr. Winters “quote” data by Berniell-Lee et al. (2009), who had reported that 5.2% of R1b1* were identified in Cameroon and neighboring Gabon, and “quote” it as follows “Haplogroup R1b1* is found in Africa…Berniell-Lee et al. (2005) found in their study that 5.2% carried Rb1*” (spelling by Winters, 2011). As one sees again, Cameroon and Gabon were not mentioned, only “found in Africa 5.2%…”.
Here is yet another example. According to Winters (2011) , “The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy populations ranged from 1% - 25% (Berniell-Lee et al., 2009) ”. In fact, Figure 1 in the Berniell-Lee et al. paper shows only two individuals having R1b1*, one from Baka tribe (out of 33 tested) in Gabon, and one from Bakola tribe (out of 22 tested) in Cameroon. So much for 1% - 25%. The list of misquotations can go on. That was a basis for the “African origin of R1-M173”.

---

Why don't you deal with this rather than floods of spam?

---

quote:

---

Y-chromosome R1 is found throghout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010). The age of ychromosome
R is 27ky. Most researchers believe that
R(M173) is 18.5 ky.There is a great diversity of the
macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome
R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45
mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et
al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The
most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The
predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009).
Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations
including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88. Geography appears
to play a significant role in the distribution of haplogroup
R in Africa. Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency
among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among
Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people)
range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee
et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18,
V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is
also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive
mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup
R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. BerniellLee
et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried
Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged
from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy
populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009).
The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations
was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).

---

quote:

---

Around 0.1 of Sub Saharan Africans carry R1b1b2. Wood
et al (2009) found that Khoisan (2.2%) and Niger-Congo
(0.4%) speakers carried the R-M269 y-chromosome.
The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b) and M 198 (R1a1)
(Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data
indicate the successful colonization of Asia by SubSaharan
Africans from Nubia 5-4kya (Winters, 2007,2008,
2010c). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that
around 4kya intercultural style artifacts connected Africa
and Eurasia (Winters, 2007,2010c).

---

As a result, I did not attempt to decieve anyone about the frequency of R1 in Africa as the author implies.

In fact recent research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.



Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.
 

---

Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Exactly how do you know, other than some conspiracy theory, that Klysonov wrote the review? and how does that alter the fact that you misquoted?

---

quote:

---

LOL. I know he is the person who wrote the piece because he is listed as the author.hahaha

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
LOL at the above. Low level thinking. LOL We are talking about deep clades of alleles. You come here with stupid charts. SMH

---

show me this "we", people talking about alleles in this thread, show me the quote fool

---

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups.


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].

In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome.

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)

Do you understand the above?


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=010625;p=1#000001
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[QB] Klyosov in criticizing my article exagerates what I wrote. He implies that I was trying to decieve the readers about the frequency of R1 in Africa. This is false.

I specifically stated the frequency of R1 among African populations throughout my 2011 paper.
[QUOTE]

Y-chromosome R1 is found throughout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010).

---

quote:

---

Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese:Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History
Hisham Y. Hassan 2008

Haplogroup R-M173 appears to be the most frequent haplogroup in Fulani,

The Fulani, who possess the lowest population size inthis study, have an interesting genetic structure, effectively consisting of two haplogroups or founding line-ages. One of the lineages is R-M173 (53.8%), and its sheer frequency suggests either a recent migration of this group to Africa and/or a restricted gene flow due to linguistic or cultural barriers. The high frequency of sub-clade E-V22, which is believed to be northeast African (Cruciani et al., 2007) and haplogroup R-M173, suggests an amalgamation of two populations/cultures that took place sometime in the past in eastern or central Africa.This is also evident from the frequency of the ‘‘T’’ allele of the lactase persistence gene that is uniquely present in considerable frequencies among the Fulani (Mulcareet al., 2004). Interestingly, Fulani language is classified in the Niger-Congo family of languages, which is more prevalent in West Africa and among Bantu speakers, yet their Y-chromosomes show very little evidence of West African genetic affiliation.

---

 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 


The fact remains that R-M269, is found among Sub-Saharan Africans from West, to East and Southern Africa and include Niger-Congo speakers, Pgymies, and Khoisan . This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


my 2011 paper.

quote:

---

Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).

---

---

M173 (R P-25) renamed V88 as per alleles specific to Africa.

quote:

---

The phylogeographic profile of R1*-M173 supports this ancient migration of Kushites from Africa to Eurasia as suggested by the Classical writers. This expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

--Clyde Winters
The Kushite Spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia

---

.


Clyde, on what continent did Haplgroup R originate ?


.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 


The fact remains that R-M269, is found among Sub-Saharan Africans from West, to East and Southern Africa. This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

.



.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The R1 haplogroup probably originated in Africa.

.

.


.
The phylogeography of R1 in Africa makes it clear that this y-chromosome is spread globally across Africa and includes the genetic structure of diverse African populations including Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, Khoisan,Pygmy, Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Semitic speaking African populations (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009; Cruciani et al, 2010; Wood et al, 2009). The fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroup illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosome to Eurasia.

Abu-Amero et al (20009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of Ry-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa, especially Cameroon (Coia et al, 2005). Coia et al (2005) has revealed that no maternal Eurasian lineages have been found among Sub-Saharan Africans with a R1- M173 profile.
Haplogroup V88 has the greatest frequency in Africa. It is predominately carried by Chadic speakers, ranges between 2-60% among Central African Niger-Congo speakers (Cruciani et al, 2010). Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).


The phylogenetically deep haplogroup R1b is mainly found in West Africa and the Sahel, where the frequency ranges between 85-100% among Niger Congo speakers (Cruciani et al, 2010). The paternal record of M173 on the African continent illustrates a greater distribution of this y-chromosome among varied African populations than, in Asia.

The greatest diversity of R1b in Africa is highly suggestive of an Africa origin for this male lineage. Archaeological (Lal, 1963), genetic (Winters, 2008;2010a), placenames (Balakrishnan, 2005) and linguistic data group (Aravanan,1979,1980; Upadhyaya, 1976,1979; Winters 1985a,1985b, 1989) linking Africans and Dravidian support the recent demic diffusion of SubSaharan Africans and gene flow from Africa to Eurasia. An early colonization of Eurasia 4kya by Sub-Saharan Africans and Dravidian carriers of R1-M173 is the best scenario to explain the high frequency and widespread geographical distribution of this y-chromosome on the African continent (Winters, 2010c). Given the greatest diversity of R1- M173, this is the most parsimonious model explaining the frequency of R-M173 in Africa.




.
In conclusion, the R haplogroup probably originated in Africa. In my paper POSSIBLE AFRICAN ORIGIN OF Y-CHROMOSOME R1-M173 , I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa. Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010).

In Africa we find R-M269 and V88. Clearly, R-V88 is older than R-M269 there is no evidence of archaeological evidence of a back migration or haplogroup R into Africa, but there is evidence of the migration of the Kushites and Proto-Sahara into Eurasia from Middle Africa. This supports the proposition the R haplogroups originated in Africa, not Eurasia.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Clyde, on what continent did the first clade of Haplogroup R called
R-M207 originate ?
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


Clyde, on what continent did the first clade of Haplogroup R called
R-M207 originate ?

---

R-M207 is the same as V45. The Dravidians came from Africa and took hg R2 into India. The presence of R-M207/V45 in Africa make it clear that R-M207 probably originated in Africa.

.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


R-M207 is the same as V45.

---

quote:

---

R M207/UTY2, P224, P227, P229, P232, P280,
P285, S4, S8, S9, V45

---

quote:

---

Corrections/Additions made since 1 January 2010:
Added the following SNPs L165, L193, L196, L226, P89.2, V7, V8, V35, V45, V69, V88 and Cruciani et al (2010) on 12 January 2010

---

quote:

---

We resequenced about 0.15 Mb of the MSY for each of the four R1b subjects and found six new mutations (V7, V8, V35, V45, V69, and V88). The V45 mutation is phylogenetically equivalent to M173. Among the other five mutations, V88 defines a new monophyletic clade (R-V88 or R1b1a), which includes haplogroups R-M18 (R1b1a1, formerly R1b1a), R-V8 (R1b1a2), R-V35 (R1b1a3, further subdivided by the V7 mutation to R1b1a3* and R1b1a3a), and R-V69 (R1b1a4) (Figure 1).

-- Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages
Fulvio Cruciani, 2010

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


R-M207 is the same as V45.

---

that is incorrect

ISOGG made an error or correction on this

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR10.html

quote:

---

R M207/UTY2, P224, P227, P229, P232, P280,
P285, S4, S8, S9, V45

---

^^^ here they show V5 as an allele of 207

However on the same page:

quote:

---

Corrections/Additions made since 1 January 2010:
Added the following SNPs L165, L193, L196, L226, P89.2, V7, V8, V35, V45, V69, V88 and Cruciani et al (2010) on 12 January 2010

---

^^^ added SNPs > reference Cruciani et al (2010) >>>

quote:

---

We resequenced about 0.15 Mb of the MSY for each of the four R1b subjects and found six new mutations (V7, V8, V35, V45, V69, and V88). The V45 mutation is phylogenetically equivalent to M173. Among the other five mutations, V88 defines a new monophyletic clade (R-V88 or R1b1a), which includes haplogroups R-M18 (R1b1a1, formerly R1b1a), R-V8 (R1b1a2), R-V35 (R1b1a3, further subdivided by the V7 mutation to R1b1a3* and R1b1a3a), and R-V69 (R1b1a4) (Figure 1).

-- Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages
Fulvio Cruciani, 2010

---

^^^ this is the sole and primary source about V45

The chart above is for R1

However R-M207 is ancestor to R1

That's the paragroup, the R* root before R1 came into existence

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The fact remains that R-M269, is found among Sub-Saharan Africans from West, to East and Southern Africa. This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

.



.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The fact remains that R-M269, is found among Sub-Saharan Africans from West, to East and Southern Africa. This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

.



.

---

So that means the people of Wales are 92.3% African paternally
rather than Central Asian because M269 originates in Africa, correct ?

Additionally

M269

Basques, Spain 87.1

Ireland 85.4

France 80.5

England 62.0

etc, etc all over Europe, high frequencies

So Clyde, you would agree with xyyman, modern Europeans are depigmented Africans rather than Central Asians right?
Their Y DNA is primarily R and R is an African haplogroup

Don't LOL me, this is pure logic stemming directly from what you are saying

The simple fact is that if what you are claiming is true, that R1 is an African haplogroup and modern Europeans primarily carry R1 as their Y-DNA then there is no escaping the fact that they are primarily African paternally

Either that is bizarre but true

or your claim is not true, so don't try to play like I'm joking

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


my 2011 paper.

quote:

---

Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).

---

---

M173 (R P-25) renamed V88 as per alleles specific to Africa.

quote:

---

The phylogeographic profile of R1*-M173 supports this ancient migration of Kushites from Africa to Eurasia as suggested by the Classical writers. This expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

--Clyde Winters
The Kushite Spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia

---

.


Clyde, on what continent did Haplgroup R originate ?


.

---

Hum, let's see?


‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups.


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].

In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome.

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The fact remains that R-M269, is found among Sub-Saharan Africans from West, to East and Southern Africa. This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

.



.

---

So that means the people of Wales are 92.3% African paternally
rather than Central Asian because M269 originates in Africa, correct ?

Additionally

M269

Basques, Spain 87.1

Ireland 85.4

France 80.5

England 62.0

etc, etc all over Europe, high frequencies

So Clyde, you would agree with xyyman, modern Europeans are depigmented Africans rather than Central Asians right?
Their Y DNA is primarily R and R is an African haplogroup

Don't LOL me, this is pure logic stemming directly from what you are saying

The simple fact is that if what you are claiming is true, that R1 is an African haplogroup and modern Europeans primarily carry R1 as their Y-DNA then there is no escaping the fact that they are primarily African paternally

Either that is bizarre but true

or your claim is not true, so don't try to play like I'm joking

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The fact remains that R-M269, is found among Sub-Saharan Africans from West, to East and Southern Africa and include Niger-Congo speakers, Pgymies, and Khoisan . This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

---

quote:

---

p.327 Altogether, the proportion of recent Eurasian admixture found in our sample is approximately 15% (haplogroups E1b1b1b-M81, G-M201, N1c-Tat, R1b1b2-M269 and two chromosomes belonging to E1b1b1a-M78—see criteria below), which is easily explained by the well-reported European arrivals to this territory within the last five centuries.

328 A phylogenetic network of R1b1 lineages based on 10 Y-STR
haplotypes was constructed with samples from Cameroon and
Gabon5 and from the present study (Figure 2a). A clear separation of the R1b1b2-M269 samples was observed; they clustered with the European modal haplotype, supporting their European ancestry.

---

quote:

---

A group of chromosomes of potential interest to past trans-Saharan connections is the paragroup R1b1* (R-P25*). Cruciani et al18 found this paragroup (at that time defined as haplogroup 117, or R-M173*(xSRY10831, M18, M73, M269)) to be present at high frequencies (up to 95%) in populations from northern Cameroon. The same paragroup was only rarely observed in other sub-Saharan African regions, and not observed at all in western Eurasia.18 Subsequent studies dealing with the MSY diversity in Africa have confirmed the presence of R-P25*(xM269)[BOM excluding M269) in northern Cameroon at high frequencies 23and, at lower frequencies (mean 5%, range 0–20%), of R-P25* immediately south of Cameroon, in several populations from Gabon.

---

quote:

---

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=003788 Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
• Figure 2: Distribution of R1b among African Populations
Mandekan………..…………..…100%
Mossi………….……………….100%
Rimaiba………….…………….100%
Fulbe(Burkina)…….…………..91.0%
Fulbe(Niger)…………………..85.7%
Fulbe(Nigeria)…………………80.0%
Fulbe(Cameroon)……..………88.9%
Bamileke……………………….100%
Ewondo………………………….96.7
Biaka (Pygmies)………………..100%
Mbuti(Pygmies)……..………...100%
Twa(Pygmies)………………….100%

This figure is based on Cruciani et al (2010).


Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on 20 February, 2011 12:15 AM:

Why won't you understand that Y(xR1b)* means every haplogroup except R1b?

This is basic population genetics terminology:
Y = the entire set of MSY chromosome haplogroups
x = except
R1b = R1b including its downstream subclades.

All the other columns in Table 1 are telling you the percise R1b of the subjects.

For example row 1 is of 55 sampled Moroccan Arabs where 1.8% have R1b1b2
but no other R1b haplogroups while the remaing 98.2% have haplogroups that
are neither R1b nor any of its subclades at all. There's nothing to debate here.

I know what table the data comes from as seen by the haplogroups and their
frequencies provided in my earlier post. Check the figures yourself, you'll see.
%%%%%%
[
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on 20 February, 2011 01:33 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Why won't you understand that Y(xR1b)* means every haplogroup except R1b?

This is basic population genetics terminology:
Y = the entire set of MSY chromosome haplogroups
x = except
R1b = R1b including its downstream subclades.

All the other columns in Table 1 are telling you the percise R1b of the subjects.

For example row 1 is of 55 sampled Moroccan Arabs where 1.8% have R1b1b2
but no other R1b haplogroups while the remaing 98.2% have haplogroups that
are neither R1b nor any of its subclades at all. There's nothing to debate here.

I know what table the data comes from as seen by the haplogroups and their
frequencies provided in my earlier post. Check the figures yourself, you'll see.

BTW Congratulations on your two peer review published articles in Curr Res J Biol Sci.
quote:

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These figures were taken from this Table
quote:

Originally posted by alTakruri:

Mandekan, Mossi, Rimaiba, Bamileke, Biaka, Mbuti, and
Twa have no R1b MSY chromosomes in the reported samples.


Fulbe(Burkina) have no R1b

Fulbe(Niger) have 14.3% R1b as R-V88*

Fulbe(Nigeria) have no R1b

Fulbe(Cameroon) have 11.1% R1b as 5.6% R-V88* plus 5.6% R-V69

Ewondo have 3.3% R1b as R-V88*


Above are the correct readings
of Table 1 in Crucuani (2010).


Outside of Africa R-V88 showed up in
2 out of 1173 Italians (0.2%), one had subclade R-V35 the other R-V7
1 out of 141 Corsicans (0.7%), he had subclade R-M18
1 out of 510 Balkans (0.2%) and
1 out of 328 Western Asians (0.3%).

5 out of 2152 amounts to 2/10ths of 1%.

I read the table wrong. I did not know that x=except. Thanks for making it clear.I would have been embarassed if I had made these statements in an article.

I will admit I am still a novice in this area. But I am still trying to project a different interpretation of the data using archaeogenetics.
Thanks again for the heads up.

---

quote:

---

According to the phylogeography of macro-haplogroup K-M9
(which contains haplogroup R1b), an ancient Asia-to-Africa back
migration has been hypothesized to explain the puzzling presence of R-P25* in sub-Saharan Africa.18 This hypothesis is strongly supported by the present data. In the revised Y chromosome phylogeny, there are 119 lineages in the macro-haplogroup K-M9 (which includes haplogroups K1-K4 and L to T).31 Of these lineages, only two have been observed in sub-Saharan Africa at appreciable frequencies: T-M7018,41,42 and R-V88 (this study). Both haplogroups have also been observed in Europe and western Asia (Refs 42,43 and this study). If the presence of R1b chromosomes in Africa was not because of a back migration, we would have to assume that all the mutations that connect M9 with V88 in the MSY phylogeny (450 mutations) originated in Africa. Under this scenario, we should assume that all the K-M9 lineages that are now found outside sub-Saharan Africa have survived extinction, whereas those which should have accumulated
in Africa are now extinct (with the exception of T-M70 and
R-V88) and this is an unlikely scenario.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Klyosov in criticizing my article exagerates what I wrote. He implies that I was trying to decieve the readers about the frequency of R1 in Africa. This is false.

I specifically stated the frequency of R1 among African populations throughout my 2011 paper.

quote:

---

Y-chromosome R1 is found throghout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010). The age of ychromosome
R is 27ky. Most researchers believe that
R(M173) is 18.5 ky.There is a great diversity of the
macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome
R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45
mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et
al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The
most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The
predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009).
Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations
including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88. Geography appears
to play a significant role in the distribution of haplogroup
R in Africa. Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency
among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among
Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people)
range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee
et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18,
V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is
also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive
mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup
R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. BerniellLee
et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried
Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged
from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy
populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009).
The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations
was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).

---

As you can see I did admit that only 5.2% of the pygmy carried R1.

In relation to R-M269 in Africa I wrote:

quote:

---

Around 0.1 of Sub Saharan Africans carry R1b1b2. Wood
et al (2009) found that Khoisan (2.2%) and Niger-Congo
(0.4%) speakers carried the R-M269 y-chromosome.
The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b) and M 198 (R1a1)
(Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data
indicate the successful colonization of Asia by SubSaharan
Africans from Nubia 5-4kya (Winters, 2007,2008,
2010c). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that
around 4kya intercultural style artifacts connected Africa
and Eurasia (Winters, 2007,2010c).

---

As a result, I did not attempt to decieve anyone about the frequency of R1 in Africa as the author implies.

In fact recent research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.



Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
, I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa. Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

However your information is obsolete due to recent analysis of Siberian DNA

Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia, dating to 24,000 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

---

quote:

---

"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

In a later post I show that you are misinterpreting/misquoting these sources. R-M269 is NOT African but European and the only place with significant R1 is Cameroon where the haplotype is R-V88.

---

quote:

---

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573200/

The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88
Miguel González,1




Altogether, the proportion of recent Eurasian admixture found in our sample is approximately 15% (haplogroups E1b1b1b-M81, G-M201, N1c-Tat, R1b1b2-M269 and two chromosomes belonging to E1b1b1a-M78—see criteria below), which is easily explained by the well-reported European arrivals to this territory within the last five centuries.

A phylogenetic network of R1b1 lineages based on 10 Y-STR haplotypes was constructed with samples from Cameroon and Gabon5 and from the present study (Figure 2a). A clear separation of the R1b1b2-M269 samples was observed; they
clustered with the European modal haplotype, supporting their European ancestry. The non-consensus alleles observed in both studies do not show a well-defined separation from the samples with consensus alleles. However, a cluster containing haplotypes with both consensus and non-consensus alleles (representing two different lineages) and another exclusively with consensus alleles could be indicative of at least three different lineages within the R1b1-P25( × M269) haplogroup. Nonetheless, it is important to note that the data from Berniell-Lee et al5 were published before the recently discovered mutations within P25.7 Cruciani et al7 did not find any intermediate variant alleles at the locus DYS385, which were all found within haplogroup R1b1a-V88 in the present work (with only two chromosomes presenting consensus alleles). This result may indicate the presence of different sub-lineages within this haplogroup that are yet to be discovered.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

However your information is obsolete due to recent analysis of Siberian DNA

Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia, dating to 24,000 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

---

Lol- this kind of bigotry is getting hilarious.

---

quote:

---

Y-DNA haplogroup R-M207 is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2.
R1-M173 is estimated to have arisen during the height of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), about 18,500 years ago, most likely in southwestern Asia. The two most common descendant clades of R1 are R1a and R1b.
R1a-M420 is believed to have arisen on the Eurasian Steppe or the Indus Valley, and today is most frequently observed in eastern Europe and in western and central Asia. R1a1a1g-M458 is found at frequencies approaching or exceeding 30% in Eastern Europe.
R1b-M343 is believed to have arisen in southwest Asia and today its sublcades are bound in various distributions across Eurasia and Africa.
Paragroup R1b1* and R1b1c-V88 are found most frequently in SW Asia and Africa. The African examples are almost entirely within R1b1c and are associated with the spread of Chadic languages.
R1b1a-P297 is found throughout Eurasia. R1b1a1-M73 is observed most frequently in Asia, with low frequency of observation in Europe. R1b1a2-M269 is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia.
R1b1a2-M269 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or AMH, is the most common STR haplotype in R1b1a2a1a-L11/PF6539/S127 and most European R1b1a2 belongs to R1b1a2a1a1-M405/S21/U106 or R1b1a2a1a2-P312/PF6547/S116.
R2-M479 is most often observed in Asia, especially on the Indian sub-continent and in central Asia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde's chart

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

In a later post I show that you are misinterpreting/misquoting these sources. R-M269 is NOT African but European and the only place with significant R1 is Cameroon where the haplotype is R-V88.

---

You would have to look at each reference that Cloyed has cited already if you haven't done it already.

On the top line
Berniel Lee 2009

it says Africa 5.2%

Yet in Europe it's about 55%

Clyde's theory fails right there
Additionally there is a much greater diversity of R outside of Africa

I said to Cloyed this would mean modern Europeans are paternally African

But Cloyed went silent on that one. That silence is a fail
He has no answer for it

______________________

Now let's look high percentage of M269 he refers to
in the 2012 Gonzalez article, 53%

I'm not sure where he got the percentage from (Clyde where in the paper or Supplement is that 53% you made it up?)
Equatorial Guinea? the place is tiny
Hap R is very very sparse in Africa
An exceptional region is particular groups in Cameroon Chad who carry V88

Below the quotes pertaining to M269

quote:

---

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573200/

The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88
Miguel González,1




Altogether, the proportion of recent Eurasian admixture found in our sample is approximately 15% (haplogroups E1b1b1b-M81, G-M201, N1c-Tat, R1b1b2-M269 and two chromosomes belonging to E1b1b1a-M78—see criteria below), which is easily explained by the well-reported European arrivals to this territory within the last five centuries.

A phylogenetic network of R1b1 lineages based on 10 Y-STR haplotypes was constructed with samples from Cameroon and Gabon5 and from the present study (Figure 2a). A clear separation of the R1b1b2-M269 samples was observed; they
clustered with the European modal haplotype, supporting their European ancestry. The non-consensus alleles observed in both studies do not show a well-defined separation from the samples with consensus alleles. However, a cluster containing haplotypes with both consensus and non-consensus alleles (representing two different lineages) and another exclusively with consensus alleles could be indicative of at least three different lineages within the R1b1-P25( × M269) haplogroup. Nonetheless, it is important to note that the data from Berniell-Lee et al5 were published before the recently discovered mutations within P25.7 Cruciani et al7 did not find any intermediate variant alleles at the locus DYS385, which were all found within haplogroup R1b1a-V88 in the present work (with only two chromosomes presenting consensus alleles). This result may indicate the presence of different sub-lineages within this haplogroup that are yet to be discovered.

---

---

LOL. Please answer these questions:

1.Who were these mythical Europeans that took M269 into Africa?

2. When did they settle in Sub-Saharan Africa?

3. Where is the skeletal evidence for these whites who took M269 into Guinea Bissau, Cameroon and elsewhere?

4. What European or Central Asian culture did these whites belong too that they introduced to Sub-Saharan Africa along with M269??

5. Where is the archaeological evidence supporting this migration from Europe into Sub-Saharan Africa?

lioness I look forward to your answers.

.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
It is bigotry because the Mal'ta boy was Black like the other Europeans in his day who lived at Pestera cu Oase; and you are trying to imply that he was Caucasian .

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

However your information is obsolete due to recent analysis of Siberian DNA

Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia, dating to 24,000 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

---

Lol- this kind of bigotry is getting hilarious.

---

You must have a new definition of bigotry because Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia,
Why woud such a fact be bigotry?


http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html


ISOGG

quote:

---

Y-DNA haplogroup R-M207 is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2.
R1-M173 is estimated to have arisen during the height of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), about 18,500 years ago, most likely in southwestern Asia. The two most common descendant clades of R1 are R1a and R1b.
R1a-M420 is believed to have arisen on the Eurasian Steppe or the Indus Valley, and today is most frequently observed in eastern Europe and in western and central Asia. R1a1a1g-M458 is found at frequencies approaching or exceeding 30% in Eastern Europe.
R1b-M343 is believed to have arisen in southwest Asia and today its sublcades are bound in various distributions across Eurasia and Africa.
Paragroup R1b1* and R1b1c-V88 are found most frequently in SW Asia and Africa. The African examples are almost entirely within R1b1c and are associated with the spread of Chadic languages.
R1b1a-P297 is found throughout Eurasia. R1b1a1-M73 is observed most frequently in Asia, with low frequency of observation in Europe. R1b1a2-M269 is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia.
R1b1a2-M269 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or AMH, is the most common STR haplotype in R1b1a2a1a-L11/PF6539/S127 and most European R1b1a2 belongs to R1b1a2a1a1-M405/S21/U106 or R1b1a2a1a2-P312/PF6547/S116.
R2-M479 is most often observed in Asia, especially on the Indian sub-continent and in central Asia.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Klyosov in criticizing my article exagerates what I wrote. He implies that I was trying to decieve the readers about the frequency of R1 in Africa. This is false.

I specifically stated the frequency of R1 among African populations throughout my 2011 paper.

quote:

---

Y-chromosome R1 is found throghout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010). The age of ychromosome
R is 27ky. Most researchers believe that
R(M173) is 18.5 ky.There is a great diversity of the
macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome
R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45
mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et
al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The
most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The
predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009).
Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations
including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88. Geography appears
to play a significant role in the distribution of haplogroup
R in Africa. Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency
among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among
Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people)
range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee
et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18,
V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is
also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive
mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup
R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. BerniellLee
et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried
Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged
from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy
populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009).
The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations
was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).

---

As you can see I did admit that only 5.2% of the pygmy carried R1.

In relation to R-M269 in Africa I wrote:

quote:

---

Around 0.1 of Sub Saharan Africans carry R1b1b2. Wood
et al (2009) found that Khoisan (2.2%) and Niger-Congo
(0.4%) speakers carried the R-M269 y-chromosome.
The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b) and M 198 (R1a1)
(Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data
indicate the successful colonization of Asia by SubSaharan
Africans from Nubia 5-4kya (Winters, 2007,2008,
2010c). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that
around 4kya intercultural style artifacts connected Africa
and Eurasia (Winters, 2007,2010c).

---

As a result, I did not attempt to decieve anyone about the frequency of R1 in Africa as the author implies.

In fact recent research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.



Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.

---

In a later post I show that you are misinterpreting/misquoting these sources. R-M269 is NOT African but European and the only place with significant R1 is Cameroon where the haplotype is R-V88.

---

LOL. How can I be misquoting Gonzalez et al (2012), the figure is above and you can count the number of M269 subjects found in the study yourself.

.


.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
]However your information is obsolete due to recent analysis of Siberian DNA

Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia, dating to 24,000 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
It is bigotry because the Mal'ta boy was Black like the other Europeans in his day who lived at Pestera cu Oase; and you are trying to imply that he was Caucasian .

M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:




Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269,LOL. How can I be misquoting Gonzalez et al (2012), the figure is above and you can count the number of M269 subjects found in the study yourself.

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

quote:

---

The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88
Miguel González,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573200/#sup1


Characterisation of the male lineages of Equatorial Guinea

In the 112 samples analysed, we were able to identify 104 different haplotypes and 13 different haplogroups (Figure 1 and Supplementary Table S2). The majority of the Y-
SNP lineages found in this study (almost 80%) belong to haplogroup E, namely bearing the M2-derived allele, the most common haplogroup in sub-Saharan Africa Bantu populations. Apart from this haplogroup and five other chromosomes, all the remaining samples belong to haplogroup R, namely R1b1-P25, a lineage that is rare in Africa and is found mainly in Europe and Asia.

---

quote:

---

Abstract

The Soqotra archipelago is one of the most isolated landmasses in the world, situated at the mouth of the Gulf of Aden between the Horn of Africa and southern Arabia. The main island of Soqotra lies not far from the proposed southern migration route of anatomically modern humans out of Africa approximately 60,000 years ago (kya), suggesting the island may harbor traces of that first dispersal. Nothing is known about the timing and origin of the first Soqotri settlers. The oldest historical visitors to the island in the 15th century reported only the presence of an ancient population. We collected samples throughout the island and analyzed mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal variation. We found little African influence among the indigenous people of the island. Although the island population likely experienced founder effects, links to the Arabian Peninsula or southwestern Asia can still be found. In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups. Specifically, we identified two high-frequency founder lineages that have not been detected in any other populations and classified them as a new R0a1a1 subclade. Recent expansion of the novel lineages is consistent with a Holocene settlement of the island approximately 6 kya.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

However your information is obsolete due to recent analysis of Siberian DNA

Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia, dating to 24,000 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

---

Lol- this kind of bigotry is getting hilarious.

---

You must have a new definition of bigotry because Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia,
Why woud such a fact be bigotry?


http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html


ISOGG

quote:

---

Y-DNA haplogroup R-M207 is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2.
R1-M173 is estimated to have arisen during the height of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), about 18,500 years ago, most likely in southwestern Asia. The two most common descendant clades of R1 are R1a and R1b.
R1a-M420 is believed to have arisen on the Eurasian Steppe or the Indus Valley, and today is most frequently observed in eastern Europe and in western and central Asia. R1a1a1g-M458 is found at frequencies approaching or exceeding 30% in Eastern Europe.
R1b-M343 is believed to have arisen in southwest Asia and today its sublcades are bound in various distributions across Eurasia and Africa.
Paragroup R1b1* and R1b1c-V88 are found most frequently in SW Asia and Africa. The African examples are almost entirely within R1b1c and are associated with the spread of Chadic languages.
R1b1a-P297 is found throughout Eurasia. R1b1a1-M73 is observed most frequently in Asia, with low frequency of observation in Europe. R1b1a2-M269 is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia.
R1b1a2-M269 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or AMH, is the most common STR haplotype in R1b1a2a1a-L11/PF6539/S127 and most European R1b1a2 belongs to R1b1a2a1a1-M405/S21/U106 or R1b1a2a1a2-P312/PF6547/S116.
R2-M479 is most often observed in Asia, especially on the Indian sub-continent and in central Asia.

---

---

Really?






Y-DNA haplogroup R-M207 is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2.

quote:

---

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups.


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].

In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome.

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/figure/pone-0049170-g001/

Figure S1

Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18∶800–807).

(TIF)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/bin/pone.0049170.s001.tif

---

quote:

---

"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."

---

Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations

--Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild - 2007


From where does the Mal'ta come, did it fell from the sky, onto Siberia near Lake Baikal? That is what Clyde is refering at.



 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
]However your information is obsolete due to recent analysis of Siberian DNA

Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia, dating to 24,000 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
It is bigotry because the Mal'ta boy was Black like the other Europeans in his day who lived at Pestera cu Oase; and you are trying to imply that he was Caucasian .

M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

Nobody said anything about Black or Caucasian. Stop being paranoid and making false allegations.
I just put up the ISOGG stating that R originates in Asia far prior to V88 or M269

Siberia is a lot farther away from Africa than Europe is from Africa
and Siberia is on the same landamss as Europe while Africa isn't.

So now we can agree that R originates in North East Asia 24kya rather than Africa and you were wrong. Can we go home now?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:




Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269,LOL. How can I be misquoting Gonzalez et al (2012), the figure is above and you can count the number of M269 subjects found in the study yourself.

.

---

Here's how you misquoted

above you are saying

"10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269"

Then you turned this into a frequency chart, your own below

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

^^^ that is not the same as saying the people ofthe tiny country Equatorial Guinea (population 760,000 )
have frequency averages of 53%

That is not frequency - that is the proportion who were M269 carriers
-but does not indicate how much M269 was present for each individuals Y DNA profile
That is why they don't list or talk about percentage on those figures

quote:

---

The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88
Miguel González,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573200/#sup1


Characterisation of the male lineages of Equatorial Guinea

In the 112 samples analysed, we were able to identify 104 different haplotypes and 13 different haplogroups (Figure 1 and Supplementary Table S2). The majority of the Y-
SNP lineages found in this study (almost 80%) belong to haplogroup E, namely bearing the M2-derived allele, the most common haplogroup in sub-Saharan Africa Bantu populations. Apart from this haplogroup and five other chromosomes, all the remaining samples belong to haplogroup R, namely R1b1-P25, a lineage that is rare in Africa and is found mainly in Europe and Asia.

---

M269 is exremely sparse in Africa

CLYDE THEY IDENTIFIED 13 DIFFERENT HAPLOGROUPS M269 IS JUST ONE OF THEM and they did not compile the different frequencies of each haplogroup for each individual nor as a whole, merely that they carried SOME percentage of these 13 Haplogroups

---

I did not say 53% of the entire population of the country was M269, and you know that.I was only talking about the people who carry haplogroup R1.

You try to act Stupid to misdirect people and confuse this issue. Researchers look at a subset of a given population and make inferences about that population. Population sampling is the process of taking a subset of subjects that is representative of the entire population.



This is what I did when I looked at the statistic relating to V88 and M269 provided by Gonzalez et al (2012). Stop trying to deny the history of Black and African people.
.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

quote:

---

Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages
Biernell-Lee et al 2009

On the whole, most of the samples belonged to previously described African lineages especially common in sub-Saharan Africa. Specifically, most of these lineages have been associated either with Bantu-speaking people—E1b1a (E3a according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), B2a, and E2—or to Pygmy populations (haplogroup B2b). We also observed traces of haplogroups A, E*, E1a, and E1b1b1a (E3b1 according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), which are found at low frequencies across the African continent (Underhill et al. 2000, 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; Wood et al. 2005). Interestingly, almost 5% of the individuals here analyzed belonged to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*.

Haplogroup E1b1a, previously proposed as being a marker of the Bantu expansion (Passarino et al. 1998; Scozzari et al. 1999; Underhill et al. 2001; Wood et al. 2005), was the most frequent haplogroup in our sample set (76%), reaching a frequency of almost 80% in agriculturalists and 28% in Pygmy samples (fig. 1).

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/7/1581/F1.large.jpg

---

As we see here Biernell-Lee reports 0% M269 in the right column of the chart. Insiead R1b1* aka R-P25
And note the numbers are not frequencies. They are just the number of individuals in each group that carried the haplogroup

For instance look again at the quote on E1b1>

E1b1a, previously proposed as being a marker of the Bantu expansion , was the most frequent haplogroup in our sample set (76%), reaching a frequency of almost 80% in agriculturalists and 28% in Pygmy samples

^^^ 76% of the individuals carried E1b1a
But how much on average did those that carried E1b1a ?
Was it 2% or 92%
In this case 80%
That is the frequency, a separate issue as stated

Now let's look at Cruciani 2010 as regards M269 in Africa
Here the figures ARE frequency >





on the far right, haplogroup M269
highest frequency perceatage 2.4% Semitic Egyptians from Baharia
by contrast at the bottom of the chart Western Europeans 57.8%
Perhaps Clyde has R-V69 confused with R-M269 (?)

Clyde Winters is misinterpreting information and making his own charts based on it
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Ha! Ha! These Euronuts get confused easily. Alleles = SNP = Nucleotides = base
pairs etc. Come on Lioness . High School Biology. Skipped those classes?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Quiet jackass I'm not talking to you, xyyman is talking about Hgs not alleles.
His concept is that white Europeans are depigmenated Africans, not Central Asians and their ancestors lived in Africa less than 5,000 years ago so that's the "we" you are a part of.
To say that that chart is stupid means you are stupid

---

LOL at Low Level Thinker.

Hg's are based on alleles. Speaking of quite a jackass.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

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this chart made by Clyde is incorrect

example, Biernell-Lee's 2009 paper >>

quote:

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Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages
Biernell-Lee et al 2009

On the whole, most of the samples belonged to previously described African lineages especially common in sub-Saharan Africa. Specifically, most of these lineages have been associated either with Bantu-speaking people—E1b1a (E3a according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), B2a, and E2—or to Pygmy populations (haplogroup B2b). We also observed traces of haplogroups A, E*, E1a, and E1b1b1a (E3b1 according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), which are found at low frequencies across the African continent (Underhill et al. 2000, 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; Wood et al. 2005). Interestingly, almost 5% of the individuals here analyzed belonged to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*.

Haplogroup E1b1a, previously proposed as being a marker of the Bantu expansion (Passarino et al. 1998; Scozzari et al. 1999; Underhill et al. 2001; Wood et al. 2005), was the most frequent haplogroup in our sample set (76%), reaching a frequency of almost 80% in agriculturalists and 28% in Pygmy samples (fig. 1).

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/7/1581/F1.large.jpg

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As we see here Biernell-Lee reports 0% M269 in the right column of the chart. Insiead R1b1* aka R-P25
And note the numbers are not frequencies. They are just the number of individuals in each group that carried the haplogroup

For instance look again at the quote on E1b1>

E1b1a, previously proposed as being a marker of the Bantu expansion , was the most frequent haplogroup in our sample set (76%), reaching a frequency of almost 80% in agriculturalists and 28% in Pygmy samples

^^^ 76% of the individuals carried E1b1a
But how much on average did those that carried E1b1a ?
Was it 2% or 92%
In this case 80%
That is the frequency, a separate issue as stated

Now let's look at Cruciani 2010 as regards M269 in Africa
Here the figures ARE frequency >





on the far right, haplogroup M269
highest frequency perceatage 2.4% Semitic Egyptians from Baharia
by contrast at the bottom of the chart Western Europeans 57.8%
Perhaps Clyde has R-V69 confused with R-M269 (?)

Clyde Winters is misinterpreting information and making his own charts based on it

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Klyosov in criticizing my article exagerates what I wrote. He implies that I was trying to decieve the readers about the frequency of R1 in Africa. This is false.

I specifically stated the frequency of R1 among African populations throughout my 2011 paper.

quote:

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Y-chromosome R1 is found throghout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010). The age of ychromosome
R is 27ky. Most researchers believe that
R(M173) is 18.5 ky.There is a great diversity of the
macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome
R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45
mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et
al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The
most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The
predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009).
Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations
including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88. Geography appears
to play a significant role in the distribution of haplogroup
R in Africa. Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency
among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among
Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people)
range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee
et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18,
V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is
also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive
mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup
R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. BerniellLee
et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried
Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged
from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy
populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009).
The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations
was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).

---

As you can see I did admit that only 5.2% of the pygmy carried R1.

In relation to R-M269 in Africa I wrote:

quote:

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Around 0.1 of Sub Saharan Africans carry R1b1b2. Wood
et al (2009) found that Khoisan (2.2%) and Niger-Congo
(0.4%) speakers carried the R-M269 y-chromosome.
The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b) and M 198 (R1a1)
(Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data
indicate the successful colonization of Asia by SubSaharan
Africans from Nubia 5-4kya (Winters, 2007,2008,
2010c). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that
around 4kya intercultural style artifacts connected Africa
and Eurasia (Winters, 2007,2010c).

---

As a result, I did not attempt to decieve anyone about the frequency of R1 in Africa as the author implies.

In fact recent research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.



Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.

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In a later post I show that you are misinterpreting/misquoting these sources. R-M269 is NOT African but European and the only place with significant R1 is Cameroon where the haplotype is R-V88.

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LOL. How can I be misquoting Gonzalez et al (2012), the figure is above and you can count the number of M269 subjects found in the study yourself.

.


.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Klyosov in criticizing my article exagerates what I wrote. He implies that I was trying to decieve the readers about the frequency of R1 in Africa. This is false.

I specifically stated the frequency of R1 among African populations throughout my 2011 paper.

quote:

---

Y-chromosome R1 is found throghout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010). The age of ychromosome
R is 27ky. Most researchers believe that
R(M173) is 18.5 ky.There is a great diversity of the
macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome
R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45
mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et
al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The
most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The
predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009).
Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations
including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88. Geography appears
to play a significant role in the distribution of haplogroup
R in Africa. Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency
among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among
Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people)
range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee
et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18,
V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is
also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive
mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup
R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. BerniellLee
et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried
Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged
from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy
populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009).
The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations
was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).

---

As you can see I did admit that only 5.2% of the pygmy carried R1.

In relation to R-M269 in Africa I wrote:

quote:

---

Around 0.1 of Sub Saharan Africans carry R1b1b2. Wood
et al (2009) found that Khoisan (2.2%) and Niger-Congo
(0.4%) speakers carried the R-M269 y-chromosome.
The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b) and M 198 (R1a1)
(Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data
indicate the successful colonization of Asia by SubSaharan
Africans from Nubia 5-4kya (Winters, 2007,2008,
2010c). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that
around 4kya intercultural style artifacts connected Africa
and Eurasia (Winters, 2007,2010c).

---

As a result, I did not attempt to decieve anyone about the frequency of R1 in Africa as the author implies.

In fact recent research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.



Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.

---

In a later post I show that you are misinterpreting/misquoting these sources. R-M269 is NOT African but European and the only place with significant R1 is Cameroon where the haplotype is R-V88.

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LOL. How can I be misquoting Gonzalez et al (2012), the figure is above and you can count the number of M269 subjects found in the study yourself.

.


.

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Yes, and they are NOT 53% of the haplogroups. If you look at Table 1 in the paper, p. 326, Gonzales gives you both the raw numbers and the proper percentages:

number percentage
V88 Ribia* 9 (8.04%)
M269 R1b1b2 10 (8.93)

You are still misquoting the true values given in your sources.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[


.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


R-M207 is the same as V45.

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that is incorrect

ISOGG made an error or correction on this

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR10.html

quote:

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R M207/UTY2, P224, P227, P229, P232, P280,
P285, S4, S8, S9, V45

---

^^^ here they show V5 as an allele of 207

However on the same page:

quote:

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Corrections/Additions made since 1 January 2010:
Added the following SNPs L165, L193, L196, L226, P89.2, V7, V8, V35, V45, V69, V88 and Cruciani et al (2010) on 12 January 2010

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^^^ added SNPs > reference Cruciani et al (2010) >>>

quote:

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We resequenced about 0.15 Mb of the MSY for each of the four R1b subjects and found six new mutations (V7, V8, V35, V45, V69, and V88). The V45 mutation is phylogenetically equivalent to M173. Among the other five mutations, V88 defines a new monophyletic clade (R-V88 or R1b1a), which includes haplogroups R-M18 (R1b1a1, formerly R1b1a), R-V8 (R1b1a2), R-V35 (R1b1a3, further subdivided by the V7 mutation to R1b1a3* and R1b1a3a), and R-V69 (R1b1a4) (Figure 1).

-- Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages
Fulvio Cruciani, 2010

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^^^ this is the sole and primary source about V45

The chart above is for R1

However R-M207 is ancestor to R1

That's the paragroup, the R* root before R1 came into existence

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LOL. They can change whatever they wish. I still believe it originated in Africa.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[


.

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Yes, and they are NOT 53% of the haplogroups. If you look at Table 1 in the paper, p. 326, Gonzales gives you both the raw numbers and the proper percentages:

number percentage
V88 Ribia* 9 (8.04%)
M269 R1b1b2 10 (8.93)

You are still misquoting the true values given in your sources.

---

LOL. You're really dumb. 19 R1 subjects in study. 10 of the subjects carry M269. 10/19= 53%.

Stop trying to steal the history of African people.
. [/QB][/QUOTE]

This is how you function ,. You start from a misquoting deceptive table The title of the table refers to geographical area or african population and some of the values posted are supposed to be for whole countries or populations (Berniell-Lee "Africa".... Therefore 53% appears to be for Guinea-Bissau,- you don't say "of those in Guinea =Bissau that carry haplotype R1 53% are M269. But ,now that you are caught you retreat to this number. [/QB][/QUOTE]


Stupid racist the Table clearly says carriers of M269. Anybody with an ounce of intelligence would understand that the statistic is only referencing people who carry the R haplogroup--not everyone in Guinea-Bissau.
,
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

Yes, and they are NOT 53% of the haplogroups. If you look at Table 1 in the paper, p. 326, Gonzales gives you both the raw numbers and the proper percentages:

number percentage
V88 Ribia* 9 (8.04%)
M269 R1b1b2 10 (8.93)

You are still misquoting the true values given in your sources.

---

^^^ What he's saying is correct, the only correction is that it's Figure 1 not Table 1.

Clyde you are very clearly wrong in your above chart.

You can pursue your desire that R has it's origin in Africa but please use correct supporting information,
We have the haplogroup frequency percentages below from Gonzalez 2012 > in the right hand side of the chart
as stated

V88 Ribia* 9% (8.04%)
M269 R1b1b2 10% (8.93%)

Also of higher hapolgroup frequencies for Equatorial New Guineans are as follows

E1b1a* 37%
E1b1a7 40%

(Total E1b1a = 77% )

So you saying the frequency of M269 in Equatorial New Guineans is 53% is plain and simply wrong.
Furthermore nearly half of New Guineans according to that percentage don't even carry that Hg.
Of the ones that do, again, the frequency percentage, the average amount that these individuals carry in relation to the other Hgs they carry is about 10% NOT 53%

Clyde you have shown legitmate charts and references in your argument but please disown this above chart you made and admit it's wrong . It taints credibility of anything else you say on the topic


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?


Published online 2012 Aug 15. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2012.167
PMCID: PMC3573200
The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88
Miguel González,1
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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The phylogeographic profile of R1*-M173 supports this ancient migration of Kushites from Africa to Eurasia as suggested by the Classical writers. This expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

--Clyde Winters
The Kushite Spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

The phylogeographic profile of R1*-M173 supports this ancient migration of Kushites from Africa to Eurasia as suggested by the Classical writers. This expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

--Clyde Winters
The Kushite Spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia

---

Clyde Hassan 2008 reported that Sudanese Fulani carry R-M173 (x P25) at a 54% frequency

You say an expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

But R-M173 is estimated to be 12,500–25,700 years old.

Assuming that Sudanese Fulani are descendants of the Kushites are you saying that there was no R1a outside of Africa until around 4,000 years ago?

That doesn't make sense

In Europe, the highest frequencies are found in Central and Eastern Europe. Today it is found at its highest levels in Tajiks (64%), Kyrgyz (63%), Poland and Hungary (56%–60%), Ukraine (44-54%) High haplotype diversity was detected in Poland

Among the caste groups of India high percentages of this haplogroup are found in West Bengal Brahmins(72%) to the east, Konkanastha Brahmins(48%) to the west, Khatris(67%) in north and Iyenger(31%) Brahmins of south. It has also been found in several South Indian Dravidian-speaking Adivasis including the Chenchu(26%), the Valmikis of Andhra Pradesh and the Kallar of Tamil Nadu

Absolute dating methods suggest that this marker is 10–15,000 years old, and the microsatellite diversity is greatest in southern Asia.

The modern population of South Asia has the highest level of diversity of the gene making it the likeliest location of its origin


My guess is that the Indians carried this Haplogroup to both Europe and Africa

The ancestor of this Haplogroup is R* found in 24 kya Siberia remains

R-M173 is at minimum over 12,500 years old. It has a wide range in Eurasia so it could not have first arrived a mere 4000 or so years ago

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You base your argument on contemporary frequencies of R1a and R1b among Europeans. As has been shown repeatedly on this forum white Europeans did not originate in Europe, they come from Central Asia as a result the frequency of the R haplogroup among this population does not reflect the age of haplogroup R.

Granted, Khoisan probably introduced haplogroup R into Europe as early as 24kya. But Khoisan were later replaced by the Anu (Pygmies) and finally the Kushites. This means that the haplogroups carried by these later populations would have influenced the genetic landscape of Eurasia.

Since caucasians and mongoloid people do not appear in the archeological record until 2000 BC, and we see the replacement of Black populations in Europe and Central Asia after 1500 by whites (as evidenced by the People of the Sea). By this time the Great Flood had destroyed most Anu centers in Eurasia, and the Kushites had resettled many centers formerly occupied by the Anu.

As a result, Europeans carrying the R haplogroups today are the result of mating with the Kushites, who they met on their way from Central Asia into Europe. The only other way we can account for the R haplogroup among whites, is that when they exited their cave homeland in the caucasus mountains the Proto-white people were carrying the R haplogroup of their Khoisan ancestors. If this view is correct, the R haplogroup was the main haplogroup carried by whites during their sojurn in the caves .
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Mankind originated in Africa. Africans spread to the rest of the world including Central Asia.

After 2000 BC there was a series of earthquacks and volcanic eruptions in Eurasia. As a result, the Proto-Europeans were able to leave their subterranean cave habitat in the Caucasus mountains, for the surface world.West of the Caspian Sea lies the Caucasus, a mountainous region that comprises of southeastern Russia (Northern Caucasus), Armenia, Azerbaijan (including disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region) and Georgia (South Caucasus).Europe was primarially settled by Blacks so the Proto-Europeans settled in Central Asia.They did not want to remain the mountains from which they had emerged.


The first mention of whites place them in Central Asia.Central Asia, also sometimes known as Middle Asia or Inner Asia, is a region in Asia east of the Caspian Sea, west of China, north of Afghanistan, and south of Russia. This would make whites indigenous to Central Asia.

The Caves of Europe, were seen as temples by the ancient Blacks of Europe. here they congregated and used them like temples.

The Mal'ta skeletal remains indicate that these first Europeans carried the R haplogroup.


.
In the caves these Blacks recorded their history and worshiped their gods.

The last Ice Age in Europe came suddenly. The Aurignacians probably sought santuary in their caves/temples.




.
Since the last Ice Age came suddenly the Blacks were trapped in the caves. In darkness.



The first Europeans were definitely Black when they entered the Caucasus Caves.


In the caves due to the absence of sunlight the Aurignacians lost the melanin in their skin. The melanin left the skin and congregated in the hair. This is evident when we look at the depigmented creatures who live in the caves.


.




As you can see living in caves can cause the lost of melanin in the skin.After the tectonic events of 2000 BC the entrances of the caves opened in the Caucasus.

The original Black Europeans had turned into the people we call Europeans today.



The first Caucasians had lived in the caves for thousands of years. In this isolated undergroud homeland of whites, they mainly carried the R haplogroup introduced to Europe by their Khoisan ancestors.


During this time they probably treated each other badly.


Given the lack of life in the caves these first caucasians probably ate each other and suffered many bad things.

It is clear that the melanin in Europeans goes only into their hair. The only explanation for the appearance of whites, and stability of the lack of melanin among Europeans can only be explained by an extended period of time proto-Europeans living in the cave.





This would explain the varied type of Europeans who fomerly lived in the caves.


These first Caucasians probably left the caves bitter because they had lost their pigmentation--while many of the people they saw when they left the caves were pigmented=Blacks.
The original home of the Caucasians was the Caucasus Mountains.

.


.
They came from the caves after 2000BC


.


.

Blacks were familiar with white people because of the Albinos that lived among them. They probably felt that the new pink people migrating in their lands had skin color and hair like the Albinos among them, the white people were just an entire tribe of pink Albinos, instead of an entirely new race.

In Central Asia, the white people mated with Blacks and began a slow infiltration into Anatolia.First mention of these whites were as Gutian tribes , invading the Sumerian territory. The Hattis, allowed them in Anatolia,where they were able to imitate the black Empires.

Over time, the Gutians/whites were able to form an empire called the Hittite Empire. The Hittites like, the Gutians in Sumeria, adopted the language of the Hatti, and their culture. After 1200 BC, a coalition of white tribes began to move out of Anatolia into the Mediterranean attacking all the Blacklands. The Blacks were able to contain the whites, but they were allowed to settle in the Levant, and the Delta region of Egypt, and parts of Arabia. Over millenia mating with Blacks they probably co-created the Arab population.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The earliest evidence of the R haplogroup comes from Mal’ta Siberia. Here the Khoisan or Cro-Magnon people introduced the Mal'ta tradition. The Mal’ta tradition is known from a vast area spanning west of Lake Baikal and the Yenisey River. The site of Mal'ta is composed of a series of semi-subterranean houses made of large animal bones and huge numbers of reindeer antlers, (no doubt scavenged for hut construction after being shed by the reindeer).

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
Twenty nine ivory female figures were found on the open site of Mal'ta. They differ from contemporary representations in Russia, Central and Western Europe in that they are shown clothed rather than nude, most have faces and the body shapes are straight or tapering below large, round heads. Some are also perforated to be worn as pendants.





.

However many are Steatopygic indicating Khoisan/Grimaldi ethnicity.

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The Caves of Europe, were seen as temples by the ancient Blacks of Europe.

.



.
The last Ice Age in Europe came suddenly. The Aurignacians carrying haplogroup R, probably sought santuary in their caves/temples.

.
Since the last Ice Age came suddenly the Blacks were trapped in the caves. In darkness.


The first Europeans were definitely Black when they entered the Caucasus Caves.The Mal'ta skeleton makes it clear these Europeans carried the R haplogroup.

In the caves due to the absence of sunlight the Aurignacians lost the melanin in their skin. The melanin left the skin and congregated in the hair.


This is evident when we look at the depigmented creatures who lived in the caves.The drawings from the Grotte de Marche shows tha various facial changes that took place among the Proto-Europeans who remained trapped in the caves until after 1400-1200 BC.

The Grotte de Marche engravings show the evolution of Blacks into europeans.

Below is a Magdalenian carving from the Grotte de La Marche from 17 000-15 000BC:

See: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_96D2zI7_w6c/Sc4YV3c6juI/AAAAAAAAIes/kxopVZ44cdA/s1600/la+marche+faces280.jpg



This 17ky cave painting appears to record the changes in the Proto-European into more 'human' like forms today. The pictures make it clear that the long chins and noses were a major feature of the Proto-Europeans.Check out information on Grotte de Marche at : http://pascal.lefalher.perso.neuf.fr/la_grotte_de_la_marche.htm

Europeans are not native to Europe except underground. Since they remained in the caves the Proto-Europeans at Grotte de Marche probably did not interact with the Blacks of Europe that did not enter the caves and become depigmented.
There was an extensive network of caves that allowed the Proto-Europeans to communicate across Eurasia.

quote:

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Originally posted by Narmerthoth:


Stone Age Tunnels are man created a massive network of underground tunnels crisecrossing Europe from Scotland to Turkey , a new book on the Ancient superhighways has claimed. German archaeologist, said evidence of the tunnels has been found hundreds of Neolithic settlements all over the continent. Seemingly never ending series of underground tunnels are confirmed to be man-made , and the architecture boggles even the most sophisticated designers.

German archaeologist Dr Heinrich Kusch said evidence of the tunnels has been found under hundreds of Neolithic settlements all over the continent. In his book - Secrets Of The Underground Door To An Ancient World (German title: Tore zur Unterwelt) - he says that the fact so many have survived after 12,000 years shows that the original tunnel network must have been enormous.





In his book, he notes that chapels were often built by the entrances perhaps because the Church were afraid of the heathen legacy the tunnels might have represented, and wanted to negate their influence.


Not for the claustrophobic: Most of the tunnels are just 70cm wide - just wide enough for a person to slowly wriggle through

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quote:

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Santorini's volcanic activity during the past 2-500,000 years has been dominated by very large explosive eruptions at intervals of few tens of thousands of years. The most recent of this type occurred at around 1613 BC and is known as the so-called Minoan eruption. The late Bronze Age eruption, one of the biggest known volcanic explosions in younger time,- and one of the most studied, but still most mysterious eruptions of all time-, devastated not only Santorini, but had a deep impact on the whole of the Eastern Mediterranean. Perhaps it even had serious world-wide effects and changed history.
Still today, one can see its deposits, the characteristic, tens of meters thick layer of white pumice and ash that blankets most of the surface of the island group. The eruption changed the shape of the island itself dramatically: it is now believed that before the eruption, it had the shape of an almost complete ring that enclosed an earlier, shallower caldera. Then, large sections of island collapsed into the emptied magma chamber after the eruption, literally disappearing under the sea. The ring-island was breached to the W and NW, and the caldera was significantly widened and deepened.

The Minoan eruption devastated the rich, highly developed economic center, that Santorini was at that time. Since 1969, intense archaeological excavations have brought to light an important Cycladic/Minoan town which had been buried beneath the volcanic ash for almost 4000 years. Although it appears that people had time to evacuate their island in time before the eruption, carrying most of their goods with them, the findings from Akrotiri are impressive: especially, they include well-preserved and magnificent wall paintings, ceramics and other objects. Thanks to the work of numerous archaeologists, a new light was thrown on an important prehistoric period and culture. The spectacular discovery even induced continuing speculations that relate the volcanic destruction of Santorini to the legend of the sunken Atlantis.

See:

http://www.volcanodiscovery.com/santorini.html

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
To those who are slow…er. And needs things to be simplified. Busby is stating that R1b-269 did NOT come from the Middle East or Steppes. Yes, the Yamanya carried R1b but as the same authors clearly stated, the R1b of the Yamanya was of a different “type”. Which corroborates what Busby disclosed. Western European R1b-M269 did NOT come from the Asian Steppes.

Busby provided data as such. Unfortunately he did NOT provide an origin. He just discredited the notion of an “Eastern” source.

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quote:

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The Y chromosome Alu polymorphism (YAP, also called M1) defines the deep-rooted haplogroup D/E of the global Y-chromosome phylogeny [1]. This D/E haplogroup is further branched into three sub-haplogroups DE*, D and E (Figure 1). The distribution of the D/E haplogroup is highly regional, and the three subgroups are geographically restricted to certain areas, therefore informative in tracing human prehistory (Table 1). The sub-haplogroup DE*, presumably the most ancient lineage of the D/E haplogroup was only found in Africans from Nigeria [2], supporting the "Out of Africa" hypothesis about modern human origin. The sub-haplogroup E (E-M40), defined by M40/SRY4064 and M96, was also suggested originated in Africa [3-6], and later dispersed to Middle East and Europe about 20,000 years ago [3,4]. Interestingly, the sub-haplogroup D defined by M174 (D-M174) is East Asian specific with abundant appearance in Tibetan and Japanese (30–40%), but rare in most of other East Asian populations and populations from regions bordering East Asia (Central Asia, North Asia and Middle East) (usually less than 5%) [5-7]. Under D-M174, Japanese belongs to a separate sub-lineage defined by several mutations (e.g. M55, M57 and M64 etc.), which is different from those in Tibetans implicating relatively deep divergence between them [1]. The fragmented distribution of D-M174 in East Asia seems not consistent with the pattern of other East Asian specific lineages, i.e. O3-M122, O1-M119 and O2-M95 under haplogroup O [8,9].

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quote:

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Further refinement awaits the finding of new markers especially within paragroup E3a*-M2. The microsatellite profile of the DE* individual is one mutational step away from the allelic state described for Nigerians (DYS390*21, DYS388 not tested; [37], therefore suggesting a common ancestry but not elucidating the phylogenetics.

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quote:

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There has been considerable debate on the geographic origin of the human Y chromosome Alu polymor- phism (YAP). Here we report a new, very rare deep-rooting haplogroup within the YAP clade, together with data on other deep-rooting YAP clades. The new haplogroup, found so far in only five Nigerians, is the least-derived YAP haplogroup according to currently known binary markers. However, because the interior branching order of the Y chromosome genealogical tree remains unknown, it is impossible to impute the origin of the YAP clade with certainty. We discuss the problems presented by rare deep-rooting lineages for Y chromosome phylogeography.

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quote:

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‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups.


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].

In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome.

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/figure/pone-0049170-g001/

Figure S1

Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18∶800–807).

(TIF)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/bin/pone.0049170.s001.tif

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quote:

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"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

The phylogeographic profile of R1*-M173 supports this ancient migration of Kushites from Africa to Eurasia as suggested by the Classical writers. This expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

--Clyde Winters
The Kushite Spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia

---

Clyde Hassan 2008 reported that Sudanese Fulani carry R-M173 (x P25) at a 54% frequency

You say an expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

But R-M173 is estimated to be 12,500–25,700 years old.

Assuming that Sudanese Fulani are descendants of the Kushites are you saying that there was no R1a outside of Africa until around 4,000 years ago?

That doesn't make sense

In Europe, the highest frequencies are found in Central and Eastern Europe. Today it is found at its highest levels in Tajiks (64%), Kyrgyz (63%), Poland and Hungary (56%–60%), Ukraine (44-54%) High haplotype diversity was detected in Poland

Among the caste groups of India high percentages of this haplogroup are found in West Bengal Brahmins(72%) to the east, Konkanastha Brahmins(48%) to the west, Khatris(67%) in north and Iyenger(31%) Brahmins of south. It has also been found in several South Indian Dravidian-speaking Adivasis including the Chenchu(26%), the Valmikis of Andhra Pradesh and the Kallar of Tamil Nadu

Absolute dating methods suggest that this marker is 10–15,000 years old, and the microsatellite diversity is greatest in southern Asia.

The modern population of South Asia has the highest level of diversity of the gene making it the likeliest location of its origin


My guess is that the Indians carried this Haplogroup to both Europe and Africa

The ancestor of this Haplogroup is R* found in 24 kya Siberia remains

R-M173 is at minimum over 12,500 years old. It has a wide range in Eurasia so it could not have first arrived a mere 4000 or so years ago

---

You base your argument on contemporary frequencies of R1a and R1b among Europeans. As has been shown repeatedly on this forum white Europeans did not originate in Europe, they come from Central Asia as a result the frequency of the R haplogroup among this population does not reflect the age of haplogroup R.

Granted, Khoisan probably introduced haplogroup R into Europe as early as 24kya. But Khoisan were later replaced by the Anu (Pygmies) and finally the Kushites. This means that the haplogroups carried by these later populations would have influenced the genetic landscape of Eurasia.

Since caucasians and mongoloid people do not appear in the archeological record until 2000 BC, and we see the replacement of Black populations in Europe and Central Asia after 1500 by whites (as evidenced by the People of the Sea). By this time the Great Flood had destroyed most Anu centers in Eurasia, and the Kushites had resettled many centers formerly occupied by the Anu.

As a result, Europeans carrying the R haplogroups today are the result of mating with the Kushites, who they met on their way from Central Asia into Europe. The only other way we can account for the R haplogroup among whites, is that when they exited their cave homeland in the caucasus mountains the Proto-white people were carrying the R haplogroup of their Khoisan ancestors. If this view is correct, the R haplogroup was the main haplogroup carried by whites during their sojurn in the caves .

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quote:

---

The population of AMH spreading in the eastern direction included “softened” Mongoloid elements. The “dialectal continuum” consisting of Proto-Uralic, Proto-Altaic and Palaeo-Siberian- related languages formed the principal communication media of Early Modern Humans in northern Eurasia.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The earliest evidence of the R haplogroup comes from Mal’ta Siberia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

.


.

---

quote:

---

While African haplogroup R chromosomes are generally quite rare, R-P25* chromosomes are found at remarkably high frequencies in northern Cameroon (60.7–94.7%).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

.


.

---

Apart from the misleading 53% on Equatorial Guinea there are other problems with the figures you cite. The entire table is titled “African Carriers of R-M269” but in reality R-M269 is extremely rare in Africa. Instead what you are listing are amounts of R1b* (also called R-P25*, R-M343, R-V88). A part of the problem is the unsettled state of the nomenclature and the fact that over the last 10 years different papers have used different names.

For example in Berniell-Lee:

Your table says R-M269 2-20% in Bantu and in Pygmies 5%, but on
p. 1583 what is listed as present is haplotype R-P25 (R1b1*) with 14% frequency in the Bantu. However, there is zero haplotype R-M269 in either Bantu, or Pygmies

In Wood:

You say R-M269 is present in 2.2 % of the Khoisan. On p. 872 she says

quote:

---

While African haplogroup R chromosomes are generally quite rare, R-P25* chromosomes are found at remarkably high frequencies in northern Cameroon (60.7–94.7%).

---

But in Appendix A What we see is a high frequency of R-P25 (R1b1*) in Cameroon But there is ZERO R-M269.

Your cite of Hirbo at 6% R-M269 in the Khoisan is correct.

p. 199 Appendix 6a (ii) part III: Frequency of Y chromosome lineages in Africa, Mediterranean and the Near East

what is listed at a very low level are R1b*[R-V88]and R1b3 (Really R-M269)

The frequencies above 10% of R1b3 (R-M269) listed are:

Algerians (10.8), Iraquis(10.80),Turks(14.7), Greeks(17.4), Albanians(18.5), Sicilians(24.7), Sardinians(19.2), Spanish(65.6), Portuguese(58.4), Sao Tome(10.1).

AND Tsumkwe Namibian Ju’hoanse San= 6%

Berniell-Lee, G. et al. “Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages,” Mol. Biol. Evol. 26(7): 1581–1589.

Wood, E. T., et al. 2005 “Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes,” European Journal of Human Genetics 13: 867–876

Hirbo, J.H. 2011 Complex Genetic History of East African Human Populations PhD Dissertation, Department of Biology, University of Maryland

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

.


.

---

Apart from the misleading 53% on Equatorial Guinea there are other problems with the figures you cite. The entire table is titled “African Carriers of R-M269” but in reality R-M269 is extremely rare in Africa. Instead what you are listing are amounts of R1b* (also called R-P25*, R-M343, R-V88). A part of the problem is the unsettled state of the nomenclature and the fact that over the last 10 years different papers have used different names.

For example in Berniell-Lee:

Your table says R-M269 2-20% in Bantu and in Pygmies 5%, but on
p. 1583 what is listed as present is haplotype R-P25 (R1b1*) with 14% frequency in the Bantu. However, there is zero haplotype R-M269 in either Bantu, or Pygmies

In Wood:

You say R-M269 is present in 2.2 % of the Khoisan. On p. 872 she says

quote:

---

While African haplogroup R chromosomes are generally quite rare, R-P25* chromosomes are found at remarkably high frequencies in northern Cameroon (60.7–94.7%).

---

But in Appendix A What we see is a high frequency of R-P25 (R1b1*) in Cameroon But there is ZERO R-M269.

Your cite of Hirbo at 6% R-M269 in the Khoisan is correct.

p. 199 Appendix 6a (ii) part III: Frequency of Y chromosome lineages in Africa, Mediterranean and the Near East

what is listed at a very low level are R1b*[R-V88]and R1b3 (Really R-M269)

The frequencies above 10% of R1b3 (R-M269) listed are:

Algerians (10.8), Iraquis(10.80),Turks(14.7), Greeks(17.4), Albanians(18.5), Sicilians(24.7), Sardinians(19.2), Spanish(65.6), Portuguese(58.4), Sao Tome(10.1).

AND Tsumkwe Namibian Ju’hoanse San= 6%

Berniell-Lee, G. et al. “Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages,” Mol. Biol. Evol. 26(7): 1581–1589.

Wood, E. T., et al. 2005 “Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes,” European Journal of Human Genetics 13: 867–876

Hirbo, J.H. 2011 Complex Genetic History of East African Human Populations PhD Dissertation, Department of Biology, University of Maryland

---

LOL. You admit that the figures in the Table are recorded accurately. And then cite other figures that have nothing to do with M269.

Stop trying to steal the history of Black and African people.

.

---

quote:

---

According to the phylogeography of macro-haplogroup K-M9 which contains haplogroup R1b), an ancient Asia-to-Africa back migration has been hypothesized to explain the puzzling presence of R-P25* in sub-Saharan Africa.18 This hypothesis is strongly supported by the present data. In the revised Y chromosome phylogeny, there are 119 lineages in the macro-haplogroup K-M9 (which includes haplogroups K1-K4 and L to T).31 Of these lineages, only two have been observed in sub-Saharan Africa at appreciable frequencies: T-M7018,41,42 and R-V88 (this study). Both haplogroups have also been observed in Europe and western Asia (Refs 42,43 and this study). If the presence of R1b chromosomes in Africa was not because of a back migration, we would have to assume that all the mutations that connect M9 with V88 in the MSY phylogeny (450 mutations) originated in Africa. Under this scenario, we should assume that all the K-M9 lineages that are now found outside sub-Saharan Africa have survived extinction, whereas those which should have accumulated in Africa are now extinct (with the exception of T-M70 and R-V88) and this is an unlikely scenario.

---

quote:

---

The phylogenetic relationships of numerous branches within the core Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M207[haplo R] support a West Asian origin of haplogroup R1b[R1 M173-> M343 R1b], its initial differentiation there followed by a rapid spread of one of its sub-clades carrying the M269 mutation to Europe.

---

quote:

---

On the other hand, the majority of European R1b chromosomes carry the marker M269, which is absent in most Africa populations that belong to R1b haplotype. In fact a recent study [431] showed that the geographical distribution of R1b1b2 (R-M269) microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia due to the Neolithic expansion [431].
A recent study of Y chromosome lineages in western and southern Cameroonian populations showed low to moderate frequencies of R1b* that extend into Gabon [294]. Moreover, a recent fine scale sequencing/genotyping of terminal markers in R1b haplotype observed R-V88 sub-haplotype in virtually all the Africans that belong to R1b haplotype [573]. The current study confirms the results of previous work [38, 294] that demonstrates that the R1b* haplotype (meaning R-V88 sub-haplotype) is at its highest frequency in Chadic speaking northern Cameroonian populations (Figure 3.3.2, Appendix 6a). However, the haplotype was not found in any population in East Africa (Figure 3.3.2, Appendix 6a).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

.


.

---

Apart from the misleading 53% on Equatorial Guinea there are other problems with the figures you cite. The entire table is titled “African Carriers of R-M269” but in reality R-M269 is extremely rare in Africa. Instead what you are listing are amounts of R1b* (also called R-P25*, R-M343, R-V88). A part of the problem is the unsettled state of the nomenclature and the fact that over the last 10 years different papers have used different names.

For example in Berniell-Lee:

Your table says R-M269 2-20% in Bantu and in Pygmies 5%, but on
p. 1583 what is listed as present is haplotype R-P25 (R1b1*) with 14% frequency in the Bantu. However, there is zero haplotype R-M269 in either Bantu, or Pygmies

In Wood:

You say R-M269 is present in 2.2 % of the Khoisan. On p. 872 she says

quote:

---

While African haplogroup R chromosomes are generally quite rare, R-P25* chromosomes are found at remarkably high frequencies in northern Cameroon (60.7–94.7%).

---

But in Appendix A What we see is a high frequency of R-P25 (R1b1*) in Cameroon But there is ZERO R-M269.

Your cite of Hirbo at 6% R-M269 in the Khoisan is correct.

p. 199 Appendix 6a (ii) part III: Frequency of Y chromosome lineages in Africa, Mediterranean and the Near East

what is listed at a very low level are R1b*[R-V88]and R1b3 (Really R-M269)

The frequencies above 10% of R1b3 (R-M269) listed are:

Algerians (10.8), Iraquis(10.80),Turks(14.7), Greeks(17.4), Albanians(18.5), Sicilians(24.7), Sardinians(19.2), Spanish(65.6), Portuguese(58.4), Sao Tome(10.1).

AND Tsumkwe Namibian Ju’hoanse San= 6%

Berniell-Lee, G. et al. “Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages,” Mol. Biol. Evol. 26(7): 1581–1589.

Wood, E. T., et al. 2005 “Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes,” European Journal of Human Genetics 13: 867–876

Hirbo, J.H. 2011 Complex Genetic History of East African Human Populations PhD Dissertation, Department of Biology, University of Maryland

---

LOL. You admit that the figures in the Table are recorded accurately. And then cite other figures that have nothing to do with M269.

Stop trying to steal the history of Black and African people.

.

---

Can you read? The table purports to show the presence of R-M269 in Africa. I just quoted your sources that there is NO, NONE, ZERO R-M269 in Africa (except a little in Khoisan, and North Africa). You, as usual, did not quote your sources accurately. What I show is that the sources were talking about a different haplotype R-V88 (also named R1b1*) and that even there your numbers were not accurate.

More importantly-both R1b1 and R-M269 are NOT African, but a back flow from Eurasia. Again quoting your sources, which you , as usual, ignore.

Cruciani, F., et al. 2010 “Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan
connections and the spread of Chadic languages,” European Journal of Human Genetics 18:800-807

quote:

---

According to the phylogeography of macro-haplogroup K-M9 which contains haplogroup R1b), an ancient Asia-to-Africa back migration has been hypothesized to explain the puzzling presence of R-P25* in sub-Saharan Africa.18 This hypothesis is strongly supported by the present data. In the revised Y chromosome phylogeny, there are 119 lineages in the macro-haplogroup K-M9 (which includes haplogroups K1-K4 and L to T).31 Of these lineages, only two have been observed in sub-Saharan Africa at appreciable frequencies: T-M7018,41,42 and R-V88 (this study). Both haplogroups have also been observed in Europe and western Asia (Refs 42,43 and this study). If the presence of R1b chromosomes in Africa was not because of a back migration, we would have to assume that all the mutations that connect M9 with V88 in the MSY phylogeny (450 mutations) originated in Africa. Under this scenario, we should assume that all the K-M9 lineages that are now found outside sub-Saharan Africa have survived extinction, whereas those which should have accumulated in Africa are now extinct (with the exception of T-M70 and R-V88) and this is an unlikely scenario.

---

Myres, N.M., et al. 2011 “A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe,” European Journal of Human Genetics 19: 95–101

quote:

---

The phylogenetic relationships of numerous branches within the core Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M207[haplo R] support a West Asian origin of haplogroup R1b[R1 M173-> M343 R1b], its initial differentiation there followed by a rapid spread of one of its sub-clades carrying the M269 mutation to Europe.

---

Hirbo p299

quote:

---

On the other hand, the majority of European R1b chromosomes carry the marker M269, which is absent in most Africa populations that belong to R1b haplotype. In fact a recent study [431] showed that the geographical distribution of R1b1b2 (R-M269) microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia due to the Neolithic expansion [431].
A recent study of Y chromosome lineages in western and southern Cameroonian populations showed low to moderate frequencies of R1b* that extend into Gabon [294]. Moreover, a recent fine scale sequencing/genotyping of terminal markers in R1b haplotype observed R-V88 sub-haplotype in virtually all the Africans that belong to R1b haplotype [573]. The current study confirms the results of previous work [38, 294] that demonstrates that the R1b* haplotype (meaning R-V88 sub-haplotype) is at its highest frequency in Chadic speaking northern Cameroonian populations (Figure 3.3.2, Appendix 6a). However, the haplotype was not found in any population in East Africa (Figure 3.3.2, Appendix 6a).

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This has nothing to do with my Table on M269 in Africa.


In the Table I cite the source and the frequency. Only a fool and moron would accept your statements as valid given the fact you have repeatedly shown that the figures are correct.

Stop trying to steal the history of Black people.
 

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Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


In the Table I cite the source and the frequency. Only a fool and moron would accept your statements as valid given the fact you have repeatedly shown that the figures are correct.

Stop trying to steal the history of Black people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


In the Table I cite the source and the frequency. Only a fool and moron would accept your statements as valid given the fact you have repeatedly shown that the figures are correct.

Stop trying to steal the history of Black people.

---

You can whirl , you can spin, you can emit lots of spam BUT there is no R-M269 in Africa, R-V88 (R1b1) is only present in a limited area in Africa, there is no R-M173 (R1) in Africa.
There is nothing to refute. Something has to proven before it can be refuted. It is up to the proposer to produce the evidence for a proposal. You have only produced misquotes. Please quote word-for-word refereed papers that say "M-269 is widespread in Africa" "M-173 is widespread in Africa, "R=P25*(R1b1) is widespread in Africa.

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LOL. If M269 is found in Central, South,North Africa and etc., it is widespread because it is not situated in just one part of the African Continent.



This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

.


 

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Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[]LOL. If M269 is found in Central, South,North Africa and etc., it is widespread because it is not situated in just one part of the African Continent.



This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[]LOL. If M269 is found in Central, South,North Africa and etc., it is widespread because it is not situated in just one part of the African Continent.



This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

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Repeating a lie over and over will not magically turn it into a valid statement. Anyone, including your acolytes (if they are not mesmerized), can go to the papers in question-- all available free and try to find M269 . It is not there. Provide us with a quote-- not a paraphrase or interpretation- that says "R1-M269 is widespread in Africa."

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

this chart made by Clyde is incorrect

example, Biernell-Lee's 2009 paper >>

quote:

---

Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages
Biernell-Lee et al 2009

On the whole, most of the samples belonged to previously described African lineages especially common in sub-Saharan Africa. Specifically, most of these lineages have been associated either with Bantu-speaking people—E1b1a (E3a according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), B2a, and E2—or to Pygmy populations (haplogroup B2b). We also observed traces of haplogroups A, E*, E1a, and E1b1b1a (E3b1 according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), which are found at low frequencies across the African continent (Underhill et al. 2000, 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; Wood et al. 2005). Interestingly, almost 5% of the individuals here analyzed belonged to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*.

Haplogroup E1b1a, previously proposed as being a marker of the Bantu expansion (Passarino et al. 1998; Scozzari et al. 1999; Underhill et al. 2001; Wood et al. 2005), was the most frequent haplogroup in our sample set (76%), reaching a frequency of almost 80% in agriculturalists and 28% in Pygmy samples (fig. 1).

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/7/1581/F1.large.jpg

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As we see here Biernell-Lee reports 0% M269 in the right column of the chart. Insiead R1b1* aka R-P25
And note the numbers are not frequencies. They are just the number of individuals in each group that carried the haplogroup

For instance look again at the quote on E1b1>

E1b1a, previously proposed as being a marker of the Bantu expansion , was the most frequent haplogroup in our sample set (76%), reaching a frequency of almost 80% in agriculturalists and 28% in Pygmy samples

^^^ 76% of the individuals carried E1b1a
But how much on average did those that carried E1b1a ?
Was it 2% or 92%
In this case 80%
That is the frequency, a separate issue as stated

Now let's look at Cruciani 2010 as regards M269 in Africa
Here the figures ARE frequency >





on the far right, haplogroup M269
highest frequency perceatage 2.4% Semitic Egyptians from Baharia
by contrast at the bottom of the chart Western Europeans 57.8%
Perhaps Clyde has R-V69 confused with R-M269 (?)

Clyde Winters is misinterpreting information and making his own charts based on it

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You are wrong Lee does show that he found M269, eventhough he didn't record the carriers on the Table of Y-chromosomes. .



.
 

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Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
 
For an additional example of Winters's misquoting of sources and refusing to acknowledge that haplotype names change see
https://www.academia.edu/10133899/Clyde_Winters_claim_that_haplotype_M1_proves_that_Indian_Dravidians_are_Mande_speakers_from_Africa_is_not_valid
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Quetzalcoatl what do you think of Sudanese Fulani carrying
54% R-M173?
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
For an additional example of Winters's misquoting of sources and refusing to acknowledge that haplotype names change see
https://www.academia.edu/10133899/Clyde_Winters_claim_that_haplotype_M1_proves_that_Indian_Dravidians_are_Mande_speakers_from_Africa_is_not_valid

---

This entire paper lacks any merit. I have never said the Dravidians people were Mande speakers. If you read any of my papers you will find that I said

1) The Dravidians originated in the Proto-Sahara

2) The archaeological evidence shows that they belonged to the C-Group, as a result they were Kushites

3) Dravidian and Mande languages are genetically related

4) the Mande and Dravidian speakers migrated into Eurasia after 3000 BC.

5) Figure 3, of Kivisild et al, 1999 illustrate that Indians carry haplogroup M1.




.

.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
For an additional example of Winters's misquoting of sources and refusing to acknowledge that haplotype names change see
https://www.academia.edu/10133899/Clyde_Winters_claim_that_haplotype_M1_proves_that_Indian_Dravidians_are_Mande_speakers_from_Africa_is_not_valid

---

LOL. Montellano the Kivisild articles makes your whole paper invalid and your arguments prima facie evidence of your lack of knowledge about Indian genetics. In the 1999 article, Kivisild admits that Dravidians carry M1, which is an African haplogroup.

This article is just as relevant today as it was in 1999. People carry a particular gene do not just disappear.

The Eastern African hg M1, HVS-I signature motif is 16,129, 16,189, 16,223, 16,249, and 16,311. In the Kivisild et al figure below we see the same motif. The mutations are shown less 16,000.

Here you can clearly see:mutations 129,189, 223 and 311, in Indian M1, in Figure 3, of Kivisild et al, 1999.




In the Kivisild et al 1999 study of Indian mtDNA around 15% carried haplogroup M1. See:

http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Kivisild1999b.pdf
.




In Table 4, Kivisild et al, 1999, we see the frequency of M1 in India.There are 217 million Dravidian speakers in India, if we compare the frequency of M1 carriers to the Dravidian speaking community around 32 million people carry M1.


The frequency of 15% of the Dravidians carrying M1 shows the presence of M1 in India. As a result, your arguments are false and invalid.
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The earliest evidence of the R haplogroup comes from Mal’ta Siberia.

---

correct, according to what is currently known Haplogroup R did not originate in Africa

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


In the Table I cite the source and the frequency. Only a fool and moron would accept your statements as valid given the fact you have repeatedly shown that the figures are correct.

Stop trying to steal the history of Black people.

---

You can whirl , you can spin, you can emit lots of spam BUT there is no R-M269 in Africa, R-V88 (R1b1) is only present in a limited area in Africa, there is no R-M173 (R1) in Africa.
There is nothing to refute. Something has to proven before it can be refuted. It is up to the proposer to produce the evidence for a proposal. You have only produced misquotes. Please quote word-for-word refereed papers that say "M-269 is widespread in Africa" "M-173 is widespread in Africa, "R=P25*(R1b1) is widespread in Africa.

---

quote:

---

The Y chromosome Alu polymorphism (YAP, also called M1) defines the deep-rooted haplogroup D/E of the global Y-chromosome phylogeny [1]. This D/E haplogroup is further branched into three sub-haplogroups DE*, D and E (Figure 1). The distribution of the D/E haplogroup is highly regional, and the three subgroups are geographically restricted to certain areas, therefore informative in tracing human prehistory (Table 1). The sub-haplogroup DE*, presumably the most ancient lineage of the D/E haplogroup was only found in Africans from Nigeria [2], supporting the "Out of Africa" hypothesis about modern human origin. The sub-haplogroup E (E-M40), defined by M40/SRY4064 and M96, was also suggested originated in Africa [3-6], and later dispersed to Middle East and Europe about 20,000 years ago [3,4]. Interestingly, the sub-haplogroup D defined by M174 (D-M174) is East Asian specific with abundant appearance in Tibetan and Japanese (30–40%), but rare in most of other East Asian populations and populations from regions bordering East Asia (Central Asia, North Asia and Middle East) (usually less than 5%) [5-7]. Under D-M174, Japanese belongs to a separate sub-lineage defined by several mutations (e.g. M55, M57 and M64 etc.), which is different from those in Tibetans implicating relatively deep divergence between them [1]. The fragmented distribution of D-M174 in East Asia seems not consistent with the pattern of other East Asian specific lineages, i.e. O3-M122, O1-M119 and O2-M95 under haplogroup O [8,9].

---

quote:

---

Further refinement awaits the finding of new markers especially within paragroup E3a*-M2. The microsatellite profile of the DE* individual is one mutational step away from the allelic state described for Nigerians (DYS390*21, DYS388 not tested; [37], therefore suggesting a common ancestry but not elucidating the phylogenetics.

---

quote:

---

There has been considerable debate on the geographic origin of the human Y chromosome Alu polymor- phism (YAP). Here we report a new, very rare deep-rooting haplogroup within the YAP clade, together with data on other deep-rooting YAP clades. The new haplogroup, found so far in only five Nigerians, is the least-derived YAP haplogroup according to currently known binary markers. However, because the interior branching order of the Y chromosome genealogical tree remains unknown, it is impossible to impute the origin of the YAP clade with certainty. We discuss the problems presented by rare deep-rooting lineages for Y chromosome phylogeography.

---

quote:

---

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups.


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].

In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome.

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/figure/pone-0049170-g001/

Figure S1

Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18∶800–807).

(TIF)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/bin/pone.0049170.s001.tif

---

quote:

---

"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Not all haplogroups originate in Africa even if they're are also found in Africa because it depends on where they started.

The origin of a haplogroup is strongly suggested by

a) high frequency
b) high diversity
c) DNA analysis of ancient human remains

---

Basal!
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
If M269 is found in Central, South,North Africa and etc., it is widespread because it is not situated in just one part of the African Continent.

This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

.



.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
For an additional example of Winters's misquoting of sources and refusing to acknowledge that haplotype names change see
https://www.academia.edu/10133899/Clyde_Winters_claim_that_haplotype_M1_proves_that_Indian_Dravidians_are_Mande_speakers_from_Africa_is_not_valid

---

LOL. Montellano the Kivisild articles makes your whole paper invalid and your arguments prima facie evidence of your lack of knowledge about Indian genetics. In the 1999 article, Kivisild admits that Dravidians carry M1, which is an African haplogroup.

This article is just as relevant today as it was in 1999. People carry a particular gene do not just disappear.

The Eastern African hg M1, HVS-I signature motif is 16,129, 16,189, 16,223, 16,249, and 16,311. In the Kivisild et al figure below we see the same motif. The mutations are shown less 16,000.

Here you can clearly see:mutations 129,189, 223 and 311, in Indian M1, in Figure 3, of Kivisild et al, 1999.




In the Kivisild et al 1999 study of Indian mtDNA around 15% carried haplogroup M1. See:

http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Kivisild1999b.pdf
.




In Table 4, Kivisild et al, 1999, we see the frequency of M1 in India.There are 217 million Dravidian speakers in India, if we compare the frequency of M1 carriers to the Dravidian speaking community around 32 million people carry M1.


The frequency of 15% of the Dravidians carrying M1 shows the presence of M1 in India. As a result, your arguments are false and invalid.
.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


In the Table I cite the source and the frequency. Only a fool and moron would accept your statements as valid given the fact you have repeatedly shown that the figures are correct.

Stop trying to steal the history of Black people.

---

You can whirl , you can spin, you can emit lots of spam BUT there is no R-M269 in Africa, R-V88 (R1b1) is only present in a limited area in Africa, there is no R-M173 (R1) in Africa.
There is nothing to refute. Something has to proven before it can be refuted. It is up to the proposer to produce the evidence for a proposal. You have only produced misquotes. Please quote word-for-word refereed papers that say "M-269 is widespread in Africa" "M-173 is widespread in Africa, "R=P25*(R1b1) is widespread in Africa.

---

quote:

---

The Y chromosome Alu polymorphism (YAP, also called M1) defines the deep-rooted haplogroup D/E of the global Y-chromosome phylogeny [1]. This D/E haplogroup is further branched into three sub-haplogroups DE*, D and E (Figure 1). The distribution of the D/E haplogroup is highly regional, and the three subgroups are geographically restricted to certain areas, therefore informative in tracing human prehistory (Table 1). The sub-haplogroup DE*, presumably the most ancient lineage of the D/E haplogroup was only found in Africans from Nigeria [2], supporting the "Out of Africa" hypothesis about modern human origin. The sub-haplogroup E (E-M40), defined by M40/SRY4064 and M96, was also suggested originated in Africa [3-6], and later dispersed to Middle East and Europe about 20,000 years ago [3,4]. Interestingly, the sub-haplogroup D defined by M174 (D-M174) is East Asian specific with abundant appearance in Tibetan and Japanese (30–40%), but rare in most of other East Asian populations and populations from regions bordering East Asia (Central Asia, North Asia and Middle East) (usually less than 5%) [5-7]. Under D-M174, Japanese belongs to a separate sub-lineage defined by several mutations (e.g. M55, M57 and M64 etc.), which is different from those in Tibetans implicating relatively deep divergence between them [1]. The fragmented distribution of D-M174 in East Asia seems not consistent with the pattern of other East Asian specific lineages, i.e. O3-M122, O1-M119 and O2-M95 under haplogroup O [8,9].

---

--Hong Shi et al. 2008:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/6/45

quote:

---

Further refinement awaits the finding of new markers especially within paragroup E3a*-M2. The microsatellite profile of the DE* individual is one mutational step away from the allelic state described for Nigerians (DYS390*21, DYS388 not tested; [37], therefore suggesting a common ancestry but not elucidating the phylogenetics.

---

Haplogroup DE* in Guinea-Bissau:

Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/7/124

quote:

---

There has been considerable debate on the geographic origin of the human Y chromosome Alu polymor- phism (YAP). Here we report a new, very rare deep-rooting haplogroup within the YAP clade, together with data on other deep-rooting YAP clades. The new haplogroup, found so far in only five Nigerians, is the least-derived YAP haplogroup according to currently known binary markers. However, because the interior branching order of the Y chromosome genealogical tree remains unknown, it is impossible to impute the origin of the YAP clade with certainty. We discuss the problems presented by rare deep-rooting lineages for Y chromosome phylogeography.

---

Haplogroup DE* in Nigerians:

Rare Deep-Rooting Y Chromosome Lineages in Humans: Lessons for Phylogeography

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1462739/pdf/14504230.pdf


Y-DNA haplogroup R-M207 is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2.

quote:

---

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups.


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].

In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome.

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/figure/pone-0049170-g001/

Figure S1

Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18∶800–807).

(TIF)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/bin/pone.0049170.s001.tif

---

--Fulvio Cruciani et al.

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree (2011)

quote:

---

"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."

---

Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations

--Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild - 2007


The Mal'ta boy didn't fell from the sky, onto Siberia near Lake Baikal?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Not all haplogroups originate in Africa even if they're are also found in Africa because it depends on where they started.

The origin of a haplogroup is strongly suggested by

a) high frequency
b) high diversity
c) DNA analysis of ancient human remains

---

quote:

---

Y-chromosome R1 is found throghout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010). The age of ychromosome
R is 27ky. Most researchers believe that
R(M173) is 18.5 ky.There is a great diversity of the
macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome
R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45
mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et
al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The
most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The
predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009).
Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations
including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88. Geography appears
to play a significant role in the distribution of haplogroup
R in Africa. Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency
among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among
Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people)
range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee
et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18,
V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is
also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive
mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup
R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. BerniellLee
et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried
Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged
from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy
populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009).
The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations
was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).

---

quote:

---

Around 0.1 of Sub Saharan Africans carry R1b1b2. Wood
et al (2009) found that Khoisan (2.2%) and Niger-Congo
(0.4%) speakers carried the R-M269 y-chromosome.
The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b) and M 198 (R1a1)
(Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data
indicate the successful colonization of Asia by SubSaharan
Africans from Nubia 5-4kya (Winters, 2007,2008,
2010c). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that
around 4kya intercultural style artifacts connected Africa
and Eurasia (Winters, 2007,2010c).

---

As a result, I did not attempt to decieve anyone about the frequency of R1 in Africa as the author implies.

In fact recent research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.



Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.

The R1 haplogroup probably originated in Africa.

.

.


.
The phylogeography of R1 in Africa makes it clear that this y-chromosome is spread globally across Africa and includes the genetic structure of diverse African populations including Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, Khoisan,Pygmy, Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Semitic speaking African populations (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009; Cruciani et al, 2010; Wood et al, 2009). The fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroup illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosome to Eurasia.

Abu-Amero et al (20009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of Ry-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa, especially Cameroon (Coia et al, 2005). Coia et al (2005) has revealed that no maternal Eurasian lineages have been found among Sub-Saharan Africans with a R1- M173 profile.
Haplogroup V88 has the greatest frequency in Africa. It is predominately carried by Chadic speakers, ranges between 2-60% among Central African Niger-Congo speakers (Cruciani et al, 2010). Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).



The vast majority of Africans belong to the y-chromosome E macrohaplogroup. Phylogenetically haplogroup R1b is mainly found in West Africa and the Sahel.

In this region the frequency of R-M173 can range between 85-100% among some Niger Congo speakers in Cameroon (Cruciani et al, 2010). The paternal record of M173 on the African continent illustrates a greater distribution of this y-chromosome among varied African populations than, in Asia.



The greatest diversity of R1b in Africa is highly suggestive of an Africa origin for this male lineage because it is not isolated to just one part of Africa.

Archaeological (Lal, 1963), genetic (Winters, 2008;2010a), placenames (Balakrishnan, 2005) and linguistic data group (Aravanan,1979,1980; Upadhyaya, 1976,1979; Winters 1985a,1985b, 1989) linking Africans and Dravidian support the recent demic diffusion of SubSaharan Africans and gene flow from Africa to Eurasia. An early colonization of Eurasia 4kya by Sub-Saharan Africans and Dravidian carriers of R1-M173 is the best scenario to explain the high frequency and widespread geographical distribution of this y-chromosome on the African continent (Winters, 2010c). Given the greatest diversity of R1- M173, this is the most parsimonious model explaining the frequency of R-M173 in Africa.



In conclusion, the R macrohaplogroup probably originated in Africa. In my paper POSSIBLE AFRICAN ORIGIN OF Y-CHROMOSOME R1-M173 , I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa.

Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010).

In Africa we find R-M269 and V88. Clearly, R-V88 is older than R-M269 there is no evidence of archaeological evidence of a back migration or haplogroup R into Africa, but there is evidence of the migration of the Kushites and Proto-Saharans into Eurasia from Middle Africa. This supports the proposition the R haplogroups originated in Africa, not Eurasia.
 

---

Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
For an additional example of Winters's misquoting of sources and refusing to acknowledge that haplotype names change see
https://www.academia.edu/10133899/Clyde_Winters_claim_that_haplotype_M1_proves_that_Indian_Dravidians_are_Mande_speakers_from_Africa_is_not_valid

---

LOL. Montellano the Kivisild articles makes your whole paper invalid and your arguments prima facie evidence of your lack of knowledge about Indian genetics. In the 1999 article, Kivisild admits that Dravidians carry M1, which is an African haplogroup.

This article is just as relevant today as it was in 1999. People carry a particular gene do not just disappear.

The Eastern African hg M1, HVS-I signature motif is 16,129, 16,189, 16,223, 16,249, and 16,311. In the Kivisild et al figure below we see the same motif. The mutations are shown less 16,000.

Here you can clearly see:mutations 129,189, 223 and 311, in Indian M1, in Figure 3, of Kivisild et al, 1999.




In the Kivisild et al 1999 study of Indian mtDNA around 15% carried haplogroup M1. See:

http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Kivisild1999b.pdf
.




In Table 4, Kivisild et al, 1999, we see the frequency of M1 in India.There are 217 million Dravidian speakers in India, if we compare the frequency of M1 carriers to the Dravidian speaking community around 32 million people carry M1.


The frequency of 15% of the Dravidians carrying M1 shows the presence of M1 in India. As a result, your arguments are false and invalid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[LOL. Montellano the Kivisild articles makes your whole paper invalid and your arguments prima facie evidence of your lack of knowledge about Indian genetics. In the 1999 article, Kivisild admits that Dravidians carry M1, which is an African haplogroup.

This article is just as relevant today as it was in 1999. People carry a particular gene do not just disappear.

---

quote:

---

The Eastern African hg M1, HVS-I signature motif is 16,129, 16,189, 16,223, 16,249, and 16,311. In the Kivisild et al figure below we see the same motif. The mutations are shown less 16,000.

---

quote:

---

In Table 4, Kivisild et al, 1999, we see the frequency of M1 in India.There are 217 million Dravidian speakers in India, if we compare the frequency of M1 carriers to the Dravidian speaking community around 32 million people carry M1. [QB][/
The frequency of 15% of the Dravidians carrying M1 shows the presence of M1 in India. As a result, your arguments are false and invalid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


In the Table I cite the source and the frequency. Only a fool and moron would accept your statements as valid given the fact you have repeatedly shown that the figures are correct.

Stop trying to steal the history of Black people.

---

You can whirl , you can spin, you can emit lots of spam BUT there is no R-M269 in Africa, R-V88 (R1b1) is only present in a limited area in Africa, there is no R-M173 (R1) in Africa.
There is nothing to refute. Something has to proven before it can be refuted. It is up to the proposer to produce the evidence for a proposal. You have only produced misquotes. Please quote word-for-word refereed papers that say "M-269 is widespread in Africa" "M-173 is widespread in Africa, "R=P25*(R1b1) is widespread in Africa.

---

quote:

---

The Y chromosome Alu polymorphism (YAP, also called M1) defines the deep-rooted haplogroup D/E of the global Y-chromosome phylogeny [1]. This D/E haplogroup is further branched into three sub-haplogroups DE*, D and E (Figure 1). The distribution of the D/E haplogroup is highly regional, and the three subgroups are geographically restricted to certain areas, therefore informative in tracing human prehistory (Table 1). The sub-haplogroup DE*, presumably the most ancient lineage of the D/E haplogroup was only found in Africans from Nigeria [2], supporting the "Out of Africa" hypothesis about modern human origin. The sub-haplogroup E (E-M40), defined by M40/SRY4064 and M96, was also suggested originated in Africa [3-6], and later dispersed to Middle East and Europe about 20,000 years ago [3,4]. Interestingly, the sub-haplogroup D defined by M174 (D-M174) is East Asian specific with abundant appearance in Tibetan and Japanese (30–40%), but rare in most of other East Asian populations and populations from regions bordering East Asia (Central Asia, North Asia and Middle East) (usually less than 5%) [5-7]. Under D-M174, Japanese belongs to a separate sub-lineage defined by several mutations (e.g. M55, M57 and M64 etc.), which is different from those in Tibetans implicating relatively deep divergence between them [1]. The fragmented distribution of D-M174 in East Asia seems not consistent with the pattern of other East Asian specific lineages, i.e. O3-M122, O1-M119 and O2-M95 under haplogroup O [8,9].

---

--Hong Shi et al. 2008:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/6/45

quote:

---

Further refinement awaits the finding of new markers especially within paragroup E3a*-M2. The microsatellite profile of the DE* individual is one mutational step away from the allelic state described for Nigerians (DYS390*21, DYS388 not tested; [37], therefore suggesting a common ancestry but not elucidating the phylogenetics.

---

Haplogroup DE* in Guinea-Bissau:

Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/7/124

quote:

---

There has been considerable debate on the geographic origin of the human Y chromosome Alu polymor- phism (YAP). Here we report a new, very rare deep-rooting haplogroup within the YAP clade, together with data on other deep-rooting YAP clades. The new haplogroup, found so far in only five Nigerians, is the least-derived YAP haplogroup according to currently known binary markers. However, because the interior branching order of the Y chromosome genealogical tree remains unknown, it is impossible to impute the origin of the YAP clade with certainty. We discuss the problems presented by rare deep-rooting lineages for Y chromosome phylogeography.

---

Haplogroup DE* in Nigerians:

Rare Deep-Rooting Y Chromosome Lineages in Humans: Lessons for Phylogeography

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1462739/pdf/14504230.pdf


Y-DNA haplogroup R-M207 is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2.

quote:

---

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups.


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].

In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome.

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/figure/pone-0049170-g001/

Figure S1

Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18∶800–807).

(TIF)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/bin/pone.0049170.s001.tif

---

--Fulvio Cruciani et al.

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree (2011)

quote:

---

"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."

---

Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations

--Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild - 2007


The Mal'ta boy didn't fell from the sky, onto Siberia near Lake Baikal?

---

Correct. Geneticists like to look at haplogroups in isolation. The archaeology makes it clear that the first Europeans came from Africa and they were Khoisan, because the same culutral traditions of Cro-Magnon man in Europe were found in Southern Africa. It is clear that Mal'ta man's population did not just fall from the sky.

---

quote:

---

"No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe DO NOT FOLLOW similar patterns, and their sub-clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."

---

quote:

---

“... the M1 presence in the Arabian
peninsula signals a predominant East
African influence since the Neolithic
onwards.“

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[LOL. Montellano the Kivisild articles makes your whole paper invalid and your arguments prima facie evidence of your lack of knowledge about Indian genetics. In the 1999 article, Kivisild admits that Dravidians carry M1, which is an African haplogroup.

This article is just as relevant today as it was in 1999. People carry a particular gene do not just disappear.

---

.

The 1999 paper is invalid. The people did not disappear, however the name of their haplotype changed (by the committee in charge of nomenclature) to M3.

quote:

---

The Eastern African hg M1, HVS-I signature motif is 16,129, 16,189, 16,223, 16,249, and 16,311. In the Kivisild et al figure below we see the same motif. The mutations are shown less 16,000.

---

If anyone wants to check- look up SNPs 129, 189,223, 249 and 311 in http://www.phylotree.org/Y/tree/index.htm and see that the name is M3 not M1

quote:

---

In Table 4, Kivisild et al, 1999, we see the frequency of M1 in India.There are 217 million Dravidian speakers in India, if we compare the frequency of M1 carriers to the Dravidian speaking community around 32 million people carry M1. [QB][/
The frequency of 15% of the Dravidians carrying M1 shows the presence of M1 in India. As a result, your arguments are false and invalid.

---

NO, 23 million people in India carry M3. Get over it!!

---

LOL. How could haplogroup M1 change to M3, when Kivisild presents both haplohroups in Figure 3.



32 million Indians carry M1.

.

.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Abu-Amero et al (2009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Abu-Amero et al (2009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa,

---

Abu-Amero's 2009 article is called Saudi Arabian Y-Chromosome diversity and its relationship with with nearby regions.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759955/‎


The regions discussed in the article are far from being the whole of Eurasia

Saudi Arabia
Qatar
UAE
Oman
Yemen
Somalia
Egypt
Jordan
Iraq
Anataolia
Iran
Pakistan
Lebanon


Why are you saying that the article reveals the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups when the article says nothing about Dravidians ?

Why are you saying the frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is represented by the above countries when the above countries are only a particular region of Eurasia and are NOT the countries with the HIGH frequencies of M173 ?

________________________________

As for M17 the descendant of M173 in India it is found at the higher frequencies amoung the Indo European speakers, the Hindi spekaing Brahmin and at lower frequencies in the Dravidians
And all of these people of course also Eurasians

An it is also found in high frequenices in Central Asians and some Eastern Europeans

You like to speak about the Aryan invasions of India. That of course will also have a genetic marker

We are talking about R1a here

Of course in Cameroon it's a clade of R1b not R1a

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Abu-Amero et al (2009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa,

---

Abu-Amero's 2009 article is called Saudi Arabian Y-Chromosome diversity and its relationship with with nearby regions.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759955/‎


The regions discussed in the article are far from being the whole of Eurasia

Saudi Arabia
Qatar
UAE
Oman
Yemen
Somalia
Egypt
Jordan
Iraq
Anataolia
Iran
Pakistan
Lebanon


Why are you saying that the article reveals the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups when the article says nothing about Dravidians ?

Why are you saying the frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is represented by the above countries when the above countries are only a particular region of Eurasia and are NOT the countries with the HIGH frequencies of M173 ?

________________________________

As for M17 the descendant of M173 in India it is found at the higher frequencies amoung the Indo European speakers, the Hindi spekaing Brahmin and at lower frequencies in the Dravidians
And all of these people of course also Eurasians

An it is also found in high frequenices in Central Asians and some Eastern Europeans

You like to speak about the Aryan invasions of India. That of course will also have a genetic marker

We are talking about R1a here

Of course in Cameroon it's a clade of R1b not R1a

---

These questions have nothing to do with this thread.
We are talking about M173 in Africa and M1 in India.

Stay on topic
.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Abu-Amero et al (2009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa,

---

^^^ So if you are going to make very misleading statements like this don't expect it to go unaddressed
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

An independent high resolution MSY phylogeny has been recently obtained from 2,870 Y-SNPs discovered (or re-discovered) in the course of a large whole-genome re-sequencing study, but the observed variable sites all belong to the recent “out of Africa” CT clade [15]. Recently, in a re-sequencing study of the Y chromosome, the root of the tree moved to a new position and several changes at the basal nodes of the phylogeny were introduced [16]. Interestingly, the estimated coalescence age and deep branching pattern of the revised MSY tree appear to be more similar to those of the mtDNA phylogeny [17],[18] than previously reported [1].

[...]

Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231)(Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

[...]

All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14],[31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1],[14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16]

[...]

Two A1b chromosomes from a previous work (one from Algeria and one from Cameroon)[16] were included in this study together with two newly identified A1b chromosomes, whose geographic origin can be traced back to west-central Africa (Ghana) on the basis of the microsatellite profile (data not shown).


Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18∶800–807).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Abu-Amero et al (2009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa,

---

^^^ So if you are going to make very misleading statements like this don't expect it to go unaddressed

---

This is irrelevant because I cite the source for the frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia, which are much lower than those in Africa. These figures are not mine.

I have not discussed R1a, because it relates to the Dravidian speakers who originated in Africa. As a result, since they took this haplogroup to India it also has to be of African origin so there is no need to discuss this issue.

Researchers like to claim that R1a, is not found among Africans but this is false as seen in this Figure from Berniell-Lee .
.

.
LOL. Your problem is that you can't believe that much of the population genetics literature is bs. It is bs because the researchers only present statistics and frequencies they already agree with,à la Bayesian statistics.

You can try to find some minutiae detail and try to use it to support your proposition but you will fail because I cited the proper figures. Montellano has not proven anything in this thread. In my 2011 article I cite reliable figures for M269 in Africa. It is found in North, South, East and West Africa, just like V88, so the haplogroup is widespread.



Also, in 1999, Kivisild reported that 15% of the Dravidians or 32 million people carried haplogroup M1, and these authors also cited figures for M3. If M1 and M3 already existed in 1999, there is no way you can later say M1 was really M3 when they already illustrated in Figure 3, that both haoplogroups were present in India.
.




.
I only entertain this issue because I like to show what great deceivers you and Montellano are.

.

 

---

Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by tropicals redacted:
@Quetzalcoatl

How did you get on with Pagani?

The finding that the modern Egyptian sample (100) in his 2015 paper was 80% non-African?

You said you thought of e-mailing him to query it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Abu-Amero et al (2009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa,

---

^^^ So if you are going to make very misleading statements like this don't expect it to go unaddressed

---

This is irrelevant because I cite the source for the frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia, which are much lower than those in Africa. These figures are not mine.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by tropicals redacted:
@Quetzalcoatl

How did you get on with Pagani?

The finding that the modern Egyptian sample (100) in his 2015 paper was 80% non-African?

You said you thought of e-mailing him to query it.

---

I wrote you about it on September 29 at 1:59 PM on the melanin thread http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=010486 with some other comments

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Abu-Amero et al (2009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa,

---

^^^ So if you are going to make very misleading statements like this don't expect it to go unaddressed

---

This is irrelevant because I cite the source for the frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia, which are much lower than those in Africa. These figures are not mine.

---

You quoted a source on frequencies of R1 in Saudi Arabia and nearby countries that have low frequencies of R1 and said that represented Eurasia
Meanwhile you left out R1 frequencies of Europe, India and Central Asia.
Everybody knows what you did

---

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/figure/pone-0049170-g001/



 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
The idea that haplgroup M maybe have originated in East Africa is a legitiimate theory but may or may not be true since the horn is a coastal region and has higher frequencies of Eurasian haplogroups as compared to other parts of sub saharan Africa
Of the various sub clades only M1 is found in Africa, in the horn. Ethiopians have the highest frequencies at about 20%.
M is the single most common mtDNA haplogroup in Asia and in the world is most diverse in India.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The idea that haplgroup M maybe have originated in East Africa is a legitiimate theory but may or may not be true since the horn is a coastal region and has higher frequencies of Eurasian haplogroups as compared to other parts of sub saharan Africa
Of the various sub clades only M1 is found in Africa, in the horn. Ethiopians have the highest frequencies at about 20%.
M is the single most common mtDNA haplogroup in Asia and in the world is most diverse in India.

---

There is more than one M haplogroup in Africa.



You can read more African Origin of M1


African Origin hg M23

Enjoy

.
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The idea that haplgroup M maybe have originated in East Africa is a legitiimate theory but may or may not be true since the horn is a coastal region and has higher frequencies of Eurasian haplogroups as compared to other parts of sub saharan Africa
Of the various sub clades only M1 is found in Africa, in the horn. Ethiopians have the highest frequencies at about 20%.
M is the single most common mtDNA haplogroup in Asia and in the world is most diverse in India.

---

Not again.


You best can see the Arabian Peninsula as a bridge, not as a time maschine where things change in an instance. A mutation takes generation. Perhaps many generation to fully adapt.


M # T489C, C10400T, T14783C, G15043A

quote:

---

"The presence of M haplogroup in Ethiopia, named M1, led to the proposal that haplogroup M originated in eastern Africa, approximately 60,000 years ago, and was carried towards Asia [34].

Macrohaplogroup M is ubiquitous in India and covers more than 70 per cent of the Indian mtDNA lineages [28], [36]–[38]. Recent studies on complete mtDNA sequences (~187) tried to resolve the phylogeny of Indian macrohaplogroup M. As a result, M2, M3, M4, M5, M6 [28], [36], [39]–[40], M18, M25 [38], M30, [41], M31 [42], [24] M33, M34, M35, M36, M37, M38, M39, M40 [22], M41, M42 [43], M43 [23], [44], M45 [45], M48, M49, and M50 [46] haplogroups of M that was identified in India helped to a certain extent in understanding M genealogy in diversified Indian populations. In the above background, extensive sequencing of complete mtDNA of South Asia, particularly India, is essential for better understanding of the peopling of the non-African continents, and pathogenesis of diseases in various ethnic groups with different matrilineal backgrounds."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The idea that haplgroup M maybe have originated in East Africa is a legitiimate theory but may or may not be true since the horn is a coastal region and has higher frequencies of Eurasian haplogroups as compared to other parts of sub saharan Africa
Of the various sub clades only M1 is found in Africa, in the horn. Ethiopians have the highest frequencies at about 20%.
M is the single most common mtDNA haplogroup in Asia and in the world is most diverse in India.

---

There is more than one M haplogroup in Africa.



You can read more African Origin of M1


African Origin hg M23

Enjoy

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The idea that haplgroup M maybe have originated in East Africa is a legitiimate theory but may or may not be true since the horn is a coastal region and has higher frequencies of Eurasian haplogroups as compared to other parts of sub saharan Africa
Of the various sub clades only M1 is found in Africa, in the horn. Ethiopians have the highest frequencies at about 20%.
M is the single most common mtDNA haplogroup in Asia and in the world is most diverse in India.

---

There is more than one M haplogroup in Africa.



You can read more African Origin of M1


African Origin hg M23

Enjoy

.

---

That fact that a haplogroup is found in Africa doesn't means it originates there. '
Some haplogroups found in modern Africans are the result of migrations form Eurasia.
People have been out of Africa for at least 70,000 years.
During this time some haplogroups formed outside of Africa.
Clyde can you name one to show you are rational?


he origin of a haplogroup is strongly suggested by

a) high frequency
b) high diversity
c) DNA analysis of ancient human remains

---

This map shows the diversity of haplogroup M in Africa.



.
Cite the archaeological evidence of a back migration from Eurasia into Africa.

The diversity of macrohaplogroup M in Africa support an African origin.

.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Clyde, were you aware, there are about 3 million Indian people in Africa, spanning 12 countries
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde, were you aware, there are about 3 million Inidan people in Africa, spanning 12 countries

---

The East Indians in Africa, are mainly from North India. They usually believe they are white and during the colonial times they supported Europeans.

Mongoloid Indians in America, have always been a minority because they were usually hunter-gather or nomads. Black Native Americans were farmers and produced abundant surplus food stocks.

That is why whites have never seen mongoloid Indians as a threat.

.
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 



http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/lists/kivisild4.htm

Specificity Origin Lineage(Genesis)
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Mongoloid Indians in America, have always been a minority because they were usually hunter-gather or nomads. Black Native Americans were farmers and produced abundant surplus food stocks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:



http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/lists/kivisild4.htm

Specificity Origin Lineage(Genesis)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Mongoloid Indians in America, have always been a minority because they were usually hunter-gather or nomads. Black Native Americans were farmers and produced abundant surplus food stocks.

---

Clyde, stop making up this fake and divisive racial concept of "Black" vs "Mongoloid" native Americans, it's a bad thng you are spreading

Even Black people who claim to have Native American ancestry attend the pow wows without contriving these two separate races of native Americans

If the 15 million blacks in this country were not primarily African and instead were primarily Native American many many more would speak Native American language or at least know some words, practice the culture and Europeans would have remarked that Native Americans looked exactly like West Africans, it's a farce you are pulling. Not that some blacks in America don't have Native ancestry but you grossly exaggerte to absurd proportions- and to the detriment of Native Americans.

---

Stupid! How could they continue speaking their Native language when the white man made them slaves or classified them as "free colored" and forced them to learn English.

In some cases, the Black Native Americans spoke African languages such as Mande and Akan. African Lexical items and numerals were collected by Europeans as evidenced in the Nanticoke numerals that were collected by J.C. Pyrlaeus that are Mande.


.
.
Moreover, Europeans did discribe Native Americans as looking like West Africans. For example, the Nanticokes were described by B.S Barton as very dark
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322232/bin/gr1.jpg


http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/lists/kivisild4.htm

Specificity Origin Lineage(Genesis)

---

I'm puzzled. Why do we have a phylogeny of mtDNA when we are discussing the Y-chromosome?

---

Are we? If so, then there has been major confusion from the start. I however, tapped in somewhere in the middle of the conversation, where mtDNA Hg M was mentioned.


M = M1 # T489C, C10400T, T14783C, G15043A

But yeah, earlier on the conversation was on male ancestry.

quote:

---

The Y chromosome Alu polymorphism (YAP, also called M1) defines the deep-rooted haplogroup D/E of the global Y-chromosome phylogeny [1]. This D/E haplogroup is further branched into three sub-haplogroups DE*, D and E (Figure 1). The distribution of the D/E haplogroup is highly regional, and the three subgroups are geographically restricted to certain areas, therefore informative in tracing human prehistory (Table 1). The sub-haplogroup DE*, presumably the most ancient lineage of the D/E haplogroup was only found in Africans from Nigeria [2], supporting the "Out of Africa" hypothesis about modern human origin. The sub-haplogroup E (E-M40), defined by M40/SRY4064 and M96, was also suggested originated in Africa [3-6], and later dispersed to Middle East and Europe about 20,000 years ago [3,4]. Interestingly, the sub-haplogroup D defined by M174 (D-M174) is East Asian specific with abundant appearance in Tibetan and Japanese (30–40%), but rare in most of other East Asian populations and populations from regions bordering East Asia (Central Asia, North Asia and Middle East) (usually less than 5%) [5-7]. Under D-M174, Japanese belongs to a separate sub-lineage defined by several mutations (e.g. M55, M57 and M64 etc.), which is different from those in Tibetans implicating relatively deep divergence between them [1]. The fragmented distribution of D-M174 in East Asia seems not consistent with the pattern of other East Asian specific lineages, i.e. O3-M122, O1-M119 and O2-M95 under haplogroup O [8,9].

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:



http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/lists/kivisild4.htm

Specificity Origin Lineage(Genesis)

---

I'm puzzled. Why do we have a phylogeny of mtDNA when we are discussing the Y-chromosome?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
For an additional example of Winters's misquoting of sources and refusing to acknowledge that haplotype names change see
https://www.academia.edu/10133899/Clyde_Winters_claim_that_haplotype_M1_proves_that_Indian_Dravidians_are_Mande_speakers_from_Africa_is_not_valid

---

quote:

---

In the 1980s and 90s, improvements in the sequencing of DNA led to a number of researchers sequencing the mtDNA of numerous populations in an attempt to trace the evolution of humans and the way in which truly modern humans”, Homo sapiens sapiens, populated Africa and spread out over the globe.

---

quote:

---

Genetic genealogy is more within reach of the average person than ever, thanks to advances in sequencing technology that have helped the cost of genome sequencing dramatically plummet from nearly $3 billion in 2000 to near $1,000 nowadays. That sort of price reduction is mind-boggling, Ball said. “It’s as if, 15 years from now, I could get my own Mars rover.”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

In the 1980s and 90s, improvements in the sequencing of DNA led to a number of researchers sequencing the mtDNA of numerous populations in an attempt to trace the evolution of humans and the way in which truly modern humans”, Homo sapiens sapiens, populated Africa and spread out over the globe.

---

--Bernard Ortiz de Montellano

quote:

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Genetic genealogy is more within reach of the average person than ever, thanks to advances in sequencing technology that have helped the cost of genome sequencing dramatically plummet from nearly $3 billion in 2000 to near $1,000 nowadays. That sort of price reduction is mind-boggling, Ball said. “It’s as if, 15 years from now, I could get my own Mars rover.”

---

--Catherine Ball

http://www.worldsciencefestival.com/2014/05/tracing-family-trees-human-history-genetics/?icn=RA&pos=2

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[
The goal of lioness and Montellano is to use misdirection to maintain the myth Europeans--whites--carry a unique set of genes that separate them from the African or negro race. It is amazing that my articles on the Dravidians in Current Biology, and my paper on the Fulani in the PNAS, overturned the status quo.

---

quote:

---

This is why Eurocentrists hate that my articles have been published on-line where everyone can read them. People like lioness and Montellano are useful to establishment researchers in maintaining the status quo. They are useful because real geneticist know that their phylogenies and dating for y-chromosome R and and mtDNA M, are wrong and that these haplogroups had to have been present in Africa before 50kya. As a result, if they attack my work in one of their journals, I would just write a response using their own papers to falsify their research.

That is why Montellano had to publish his paper at Academia edu, instead of a PLoS or PNAS, the genetic evidence proves his article lacks validity.

---

quote:

---

Firstly, I am proud to be an Afrocentric scholar. I have been one all my academic life.

LOL. You have to pay a fee to publish in just about all online journals. In most cases as much as $1400 or more .

Moreover, most papers in genetics are published in open access journals.

---

quote:

---

You are a joke. I have had articles published in BioEssay, PNAS, Science and etc., these are 'mainstream journals'. Where are your publications?
You can find my population genetics articles here:

http://olmec98.net/archaeogenetics.HTM

---

quote:

---

Subject: RE: editorial policy
Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 07:58:12 -0700
From: "PLoS Genetics" <plosgenetics@plos.org>
To:
Dear Bernard,
Thanks for your message – good question. Reader Responses are intended to be more informal and to encourage community dialogue. As such, they do not undergo peer review by our editors or by external referees (whereas correspondence is treated differently and is peer reviewed).

Instead, Reader Responses are reviewed by staff (to check they are not obscene, abusive, defamatory, libelous, or in some other way illegal or discriminatory; otherwise, we will post them). I hope this helps.

Best wishes,

Andy
Andy Collings
Publications Manager, PLoS Genetics
plosgenetics@plos.org / http://www.plosgenetics.org/
Email Alerts: " target="_blank">http://register.plos.org/

---

quote:

---

MtDNA-based genetic arguments provided by Dr. Winters in favor of gene flow from Africa to Dravidian-speaking Indians are, however, entirely erroneous. The author has been, unfortunately, confused by overlooking changes in mtDNA haplogroup (hg) nomenclature. Namely hg, M1 in Kivisild et al.(4) has been later changed to hg M3, in order to avoid parallel nomenclatures.(5) Furthermore, a recent dedicated paper on phylogeography of mtDNA hg M1(6) as well as an extensive comparative mapping of autosomal genetic markers among many Indian populations relative to global populations elsewhere, including Africans,(7) do not provide any clues for a putative recent gene flow, from Africa, to Dravidian-speaking populations in South Asia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
A post-Review of a "paper" by Clyde Winters
http://classic.rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/367/1590/770.abstract/reply - content-block
Haplogroup L3 (M,N) probably spread across Africa before the Out of Africa event
• Clyde Winters, Professor
Uthman dan Fodio Institute
Oppenheimer presents a convincing article supporting an Out of Africa (OoA) event [1]. At this time, beachcombing anatomically modern humans (amh) exploiting marine resources made their way to Australia by 42kya, after a bottleneck in India [1]. It was in Eurasia that, according to Oppenheimer, L3 (M,N) originated and haplogroups M and N returned to Africa via a back migration [1]. Soares et al. also argue that L3 (M,N and R) originated in Eurasia [2].
Oppenheimer dates L3 (M,N) to 83 kya [1], while Soares et al. [2] and Behar [3] argue that L3 originated around 70 kya and haplogroups M,N, and R appeared between 50-59 kya in Eurasia.
The genetic phylogeny of L3 suggest that L3 (M,N) had probably spread across Africa before the Toba eruption and OoA event so it could not have originated in Eurasia. Haplogroup L3 (M,N) probably spread from East Africa to West Africa along with haplogroup LOd.
The most recent common ancestor (TMRC) of AMH carrying LOd according to Gonder et al. dates to 106kya. A haplotype of LOd is AF-24, delineated by DdeI site 10394 and AluI site of np 10397. Haplogroup L3 (M,N) is characterized by the DdeI site np 10394 and AluI 10397. Chen et al. maintain that Haplotype AF-24 (DQ112852) is at the base of the M Haplogroup [4].
The only African mtDNA that has both of these sites is the Senegalese AF-24 associated with Haplogroup L3 [Chen]. The presence of AF-24 among the Senegalese, given the antiquity of this haplotype in relation to LOd, suggests an early expansion of L3 (M,N) from East Africa to West Africa before the OoA event suggested by Oppenheimer.
Gonder et al. has dated L3 to 100kya [5]. Oppenheimer [1] and Behar et al [3] on the other hand have postulated an estimated time for TMRCA of L3 to around 70kya. The presence of L3 (M,N) in West Africa and haplotype AF- 24 suggest an ancient demic diffusion of L3 (M,N) to West Africa prior to 70kya, and support Soares et al.'s [2] and Gonder et al.'s [5] dating of L3 between 80-100kya.
Anatomically modern humans arrived in Senegal during the Sangoan period. Sangoan artifacts spread from East Africa to West Africa between 100-80kya. In Senegal Sangoan material was discovered near Cap Manuel [6], Gambia River in Senegal [8,9]; and Cap Vert [7]. The distribution of the Sangoan culture supports the demic diffusion of L3 (M,N) into West Africa over 100kya.
The spread of the Sangoan tool kit into the Senegambian region [6-9] would explain the presence of haplotype AF-24 among the Senegalese. This archaeological evidence adds additional corroboration to the West African genetic phylogenies which point to the probable expansion of L3(M,N) from East to West Africa prior to the OoA event indicated by Oppenheimer [1] 100 kya.
References:
1. Oppenheimer S. 2012 Out-of-Africa, the peopling of continents and islands: tracing uniparental gene trees across the map. Phil. Trans. R. Soc. Lond. B, 367, 770-784. (doi: 10.1098/rstb.2011.0306)
2. Soares P., Ermini L., Thomson, N., Mormina M., Rito T., Rohl A., Salas A., Oppenheimer S., Macaulay V., Richards M.B. 2009 Correcting for purifying selection: an improved human mitochondrial molecular clock. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 84, 740-759. (doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2009.05.001)
3. Oppenheimer S. 2009 The great arc of dispersal of modern humans: Africa to Australia. Quat. Int., 202, 2-13. (doi:10.1016/j.quaint.2008.05.015)
4. Chen Y-S., Olckers A., Schurr T.G., Kogelnik A.M., Huoponen K., Wallace D.C. 2000 mtDNA variation in the South African Kung and Khwe - and their genetic relationships to other African populations. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 66, 1362-1383.
5. Gonder M.K., Mortensen H.M., Reed F.A., de Sousa A., Tishkoff S.A. 2007 Whole mtDNA genome sequence analysis of ancient African lineages. Mol. Biol. Evol., 24, 757-768. (doi: 10.1093/molbev/msl209)
6. Giresse, P. 2008 Tropical and sub-Tropical West Africa - marine and continental changes during the Late Quaternary. Elsevier Science.
7. Phillipson, D.W. 2005 African Archaeology. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge.
8. Davies, O. 1967 West Africa before the Europeans. Methuen, London.
9. Wai-Ogusu, A. 1973 Was there a Sangoan industry in West Africa. West Afr. J. Arcah., 3, 191-96.

%%%%%%%%%%%%
Response to Winters (2012) 'Haplogroup L3 (M,N) probably spread across Africa before the Out of Africa event'
• Stephen Oppenheimer
School of Anthropology and Museum Ethnography, Institute of Cognitive and Evolutionary Anthropology,
Winters' response to my recent review in Phil. Trans. R. Soc. B [1] argues that the two mtDNA super-haplogroups M and N (which account for nearly all non-Africans and derive from African haplogroup L3) both originated within Africa, before the anatomically modern human (AMH) 'Out of Africa' (OOA) exit, and further that African L3 dates to 100kya (the latter date being based on a misreading of the cited sources). His argument rests mainly on the acknowledged phylogenetic ambiguity of a single Senegalese sample in a paper published in 2000 before complete sequencing was routinely used to resolve such ambiguities.
Local African origins of both N & M have been argued before on the basis of the presence of M sub-group M1 and certain derivative N sub- groups in East Africa; and this evidence of local backflow has already been clarified in the modern literature - as discussed in my review [1]. While the said N sub-groups are clearly derived from N outside Africa and are much younger than any postulated exit date, African sub-group M1 is, perhaps, more interesting having a rather greater age than N in Africa, though still considerably younger than any estimate of the OOA event [1] and M1 is present, though rare [2], outside Africa, consistent with an ex- African origin.
Genetic phylogeographic arguments contribute greatly to the topographical inference of the sequence of migrations and, independently of any date estimates, argue strongly for M & N originating outside Africa from a single L3 exit [1]. MtDNA dates are presently more reliable than for any other genetic locus but, as discussed exhaustively in my review [1], their high calculated variance still gives wide error bars and the opportunity for much fruitless argument on precise dates of AMH exit either side of the Toba volcanic event, which could best be resolved by diagnostic, accurately dated modern human fossils (rather than stone tools) at key points outside Africa.
For the dates suggested by Winters, such early AMH fossils are currently lacking. As for the chosen genetic dates he cites for his own preferred chronology, several of which are misquoted and/or misunderstood, those from the older literature have been superseded by more recent, more resolved, recalibrated, comprehensive, accurate and precise studies on L3 within and outside Africa, including M and N [3, 4], including one major source Winters suggests himself [5].
Finally, there are is a string of misunderstandings mistakes and misquotes in Winters' letter listed below, which detract from, rather than supporting, his overall argument:
Para 1, sentence 2:
42 kya refers presumably to the earliest carbon dates in Timor, not those much earlier luminescence dates given, in my review [1], for Australia.
Para 2, sentence 1: 'Oppenheimer dates L3 (M,N) to 83 kya'
Comment: I did not do so in this review [1]. As explained in the text I chose throughout to cite lineage ages from the key mtDNA recalibration paper of Soares et al. (2009) [5]. This was both for consistency, and to use the latest, most comprehensive and, hopefully, least inaccurate method, rather than pick and choose results from older, phylogenetically less-resolved publications, which might perhaps have suited my own preference for a pre-Toba exit better.
Para 3 (whole para): Comment: No published evidence/reference given for these assertions.
Para 4, sentence 1: 'The most recent common ancestor (TMRC) of AMH carrying LOd according to Gonder et al. dates to 106kya.'.
Comment: 'LOd' is not 'TMRC of AMH' (nor is L0d).
Para 4, sentence 1: 'A haplotype of LOd is AF-24...'
Comment: No it is not - on the evidence given in the citation. Gonder et al. (2007) [6] do not even mention haplotype AF-24 as such. The claim, if it were true, would simply reinforce the impression of ambiguity. AF-24 is however mentioned by Winters' other cited reference (published in 2000 and not based on complete sequences): Chen et al. (2000) [7] shown as belonging to L3a; but those authors acknowledge this particular phylogenetic assignment to be poorly resolved:
'Haplotype AF24, which is aligned with Asian macrohaplogroup M, is indicated by a double section symbol...subclusters AF19-AF21/AF24 and AF80-AF84 were not resolved at bootstrap values >50%...' [7]
They further emphasize the ambiguity of its phylogenetic/geographic assignment:
'...it is also possible that this particular haplotype [AF-24] is present in Africa because of back-migration [of M] from Asia.'... and: 'Alternatively, AF24 may have been introduced from Asia into Africa more recently.' [7]
Para 4, sentence 3: Winters continues to mis-cite Chen et al. (2000) [7]:
'Chen et al. maintain that Haplotype AF-24 (DQ112852) is at the base of the M Haplogroup [4].', Comment: Where? - unless it is in their reference to back-migration (above).
Para 5 appears to be further argument based on phylogenetic ambiguity.
Para 6, sentence 1: 'Gonder et al. has dated L3 to 100kya (5).'
Comment: No, they do not, according to Gonder's Table 2 [6].
Para 6, sentence 3: 'The presence of L3 (M,N) in West Africa and haplotype AF- 24 suggest an ancient demic diffusion of L3 (M,N) to West Africa prior to 70kya, and support Soares et al.'s (2) and Gonder et al.'s (5) dating of L3 between 80-100kya.'
Comment: The above inference, based on a single poorly-resolved haplotype, is unsound and Soares et al. (2009) [5] are mis-cited as far as the date is concerned.
Paras 7 and 8: Varied, inadequately-cited references to the presence of the 'Sangoan tool kit' in West Africa are used by Winters to infer the movement and spread of 'L3 (M,N)' in West Africa.
Comment: This is an unwarranted inference using as it does, hypothetical links (for which no evidence is given) between an Early Stone Age cultural phase and an ambiguous single modern genetic haplotype (AF-24). While dated archaeological evidence of human presence can, occasionally, be used to infer first-ever human arrival in a previously uninhabited region e.g. Polynesia or the Canary Islands and this kind of evidence be used to cross -check calibration of the mtDNA clock on unique and specific local founding lineages in those places [5], the sort of "stones and genes" type of inferences Winters makes for the spread of 'L3 (M,N)' in West Africa are completely unwarranted.
References
1. Oppenheimer S. 2012 Out-of-Africa, the peopling of continents and islands: tracing uniparental gene trees across the map. Phil. Trans. R. Soc. Lond. B, 367, 770-784. (doi: 10.1098/rstb.2011.0306)
2. Gunnarsdottir E.D., Nandineni M.R., Li M., Myles S., Gil D., Pakendorf B., Stoneking M. (2011) Larger mitochondrial DNA than Y- chromosome differences between matrilocal and patrilocal groups from Sumatra. Nature Communications, 2, 228. (doi: 10.1038/ncomms1235)
3. Soares P., Alshamali F., Pereira J.B., Fernandes, V., N.M. Silva, Afonso C., Costa M.D., Musilova E., Macaulay V., Richards M.B., Cerny V., Pereira Luisa. (2012) The expansion of mtDNA haplogroup L3 within and out of Africa. Mol. Biol. Evol., 29, 915-927. (doi: 10.1093/molbev/msr245)
4. Fernandes, V., Alshamali F., Alves M., Costa M.D., Pereira J.B., N.M. Silva, Cherni L., Harich N., Cerny V., Soares P. Richards M.B., Pereira Luisa. (2012) The Arabian cradle: Mitochondrial relicts of the first steps along the Southern Route out of Africa. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 90, 347-355. (doi: 10.1016/j.ajhg.2011.12.010)
5. Soares P., Ermini L., Thomson, N., Mormina M., Rito T., Rohl A., Salas A., Oppenheimer S., Macaulay V., Richards M.B. 2009 Correcting for purifying selection: an improved human mitochondrial molecular clock. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 84, 740-759. (doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2009.05.001)
6. Gonder M.K., Mortensen H.M., Reed F.A., de Sousa A., Tishkoff S.A. 2007 Whole mtDNA genome sequence analysis of ancient African lineages. Mol. Biol. Evol., 24, 757-768. (doi: 10.1093/molbev/msl209)
7. Chen Y-S., Olckers A., Schurr T.G., Kogelnik A.M., Huoponen K., Wallace D.C. 2000 mtDNA variation in the South African Kung and Khwe - and their genetic relationships to other African populations. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 66, 1362-1383.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[
The goal of lioness and Montellano is to use misdirection to maintain the myth Europeans--whites--carry a unique set of genes that separate them from the African or negro race. It is amazing that my articles on the Dravidians in Current Biology, and my paper on the Fulani in the PNAS, overturned the status quo.

---

LOL Look at Winters' s impact factor compared to real population geneticists at the bottom of the post. Winter's articles are not cited , by anyone except himself. Clyde please post a citation praising your work in any mainline genetic journal.

quote:

---

This is why Eurocentrists hate that my articles have been published on-line where everyone can read them. People like lioness and Montellano are useful to establishment researchers in maintaining the status quo. They are useful because real geneticist know that their phylogenies and dating for y-chromosome R and and mtDNA M, are wrong and that these haplogroups had to have been present in Africa before 50kya. As a result, if they attack my work in one of their journals, I would just write a response using their own papers to falsify their research.

That is why Montellano had to publish his paper at Academia edu, instead of a PLoS or PNAS, the genetic evidence proves his article lacks validity.

---

previously posted on
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=005796;p=1


Most of the papers Winters is posting have been published in journals from India or Pakistan which are post-reviewed i.e. no one reviews them before publication (no, they don't check the references either). People reading the paper are supposed to write and critique it afterwards LOL. It's not worth the effort. Winter has yet to publish a peer-reviewed publication in a recognized mainline scientific journal. BTW letters to the editor and comments to other published articles are NOT peer-reviewed. People, who have published in peer-reviewed journals and are familiar with the process know the difference.

Winters:

quote:

---

Firstly, I am proud to be an Afrocentric scholar. I have been one all my academic life.

LOL. You have to pay a fee to publish in just about all online journals. In most cases as much as $1400 or more .

Moreover, most papers in genetics are published in open access journals.

---

Not true, most of the influential and cited articles in genetics are published in mainline peer-reviewed journals for instance just a few of the ones I look at American Journal of Human Genetics, Annals of Human Genetics[,[Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, PNAS, European Journal of Genetics, Nature, Science, Nature Genetics,Nature Reviews-Genetics;[BMC Genetics ,BMC Genomics, Molecular Biology and Evolution, American Journal of Physical Evolution, etc. etc. this is just a tiny sample of the peer-reviewed journals on genetics- take a look at the list in "Entrez PubMed."

Winters:

quote:

---

You are a joke. I have had articles published in BioEssay, PNAS, Science and etc., these are 'mainstream journals'. Where are your publications?
You can find my population genetics articles here:

http://olmec98.net/archaeogenetics.HTM

---

I have published in a couple of papers in Science and Current Anthropology as well as papers in Journal of the American Anthropological Society. Journal of the American Chemical Society, Ethnohistory, Medical Anthropology,Advances in Nursing Science,Yearbook of Physical Anthropology,Journal of Ethnomedicine, Ethnomedizin among others as well as peer reviewing dozens of papers for mainline peer-reviewed journals.


Analyzing Winters’ list of publications confirms my previous statement that he has not published a refereed article in a mainline refereed journal. There were a number of broken links in his list, but all of his contributions to mainline journals i.e. Bioassay, PNAS, Science, and PLoS Genetics were letters commenting on someone else’s article. Letters and comments are NOT peer-reviewed, and are mostly ignored by the author’s of the original papers. Winters is probably counting on the fact that most people are not familiar with academic publishing and can be bamboozled into thinking that his contributions to prestigious journals are peer-reviewed articles. Don’t take my word, go to his list and verify that these contributions are letters.

I wrote the editors of the mainline journals where Winters published his comments, and as expected these things are NOT peer-reviewed before publication. For example from PLoS Genetics

quote:

---

Subject: RE: editorial policy
Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 07:58:12 -0700
From: "PLoS Genetics" <plosgenetics@plos.org>
To:
Dear Bernard,
Thanks for your message – good question. Reader Responses are intended to be more informal and to encourage community dialogue. As such, they do not undergo peer review by our editors or by external referees (whereas correspondence is treated differently and is peer reviewed).

Instead, Reader Responses are reviewed by staff (to check they are not obscene, abusive, defamatory, libelous, or in some other way illegal or discriminatory; otherwise, we will post them). I hope this helps.

Best wishes,

Andy
Andy Collings
Publications Manager, PLoS Genetics
plosgenetics@plos.org / http://www.plosgenetics.org/
Email Alerts: " target="_blank">http://register.plos.org/

---

Most of the time authors don’t even bother to reply to comments by Winters. When they do, the echo points I’ve made repeatedly on this group.

“Did the Dravidian Speakers Originate in Africa” In a familiar pattern, the authors of the article Winters was commenting on point out that Winters is not familiar with genetics:

Chaubey, G. et al. 2007 “Reply to Winters,” BioAssays 29: 499.

quote:

---

MtDNA-based genetic arguments provided by Dr. Winters in favor of gene flow from Africa to Dravidian-speaking Indians are, however, entirely erroneous. The author has been, unfortunately, confused by overlooking changes in mtDNA haplogroup (hg) nomenclature. Namely hg, M1 in Kivisild et al.(4) has been later changed to hg M3, in order to avoid parallel nomenclatures.(5) Furthermore, a recent dedicated paper on phylogeography of mtDNA hg M1(6) as well as an extensive comparative mapping of autosomal genetic markers among many Indian populations relative to global populations elsewhere, including Africans,(7) do not provide any clues for a putative recent gene flow, from Africa, to Dravidian-speaking populations in South Asia.

---

ResearchGate publishes a measure of what impact a particular scholars publications have that includes the number times articles are cited, seen and downloaded together with prestige of the journals they are published in equaling an impact factor


here are the scores for the four authors of the reply above, the author of the review of Winters’s article starting this thread as well as Winter’s and my impact factor for comparison:

Name papers reads citations impact
Toomas Kivisild 157 15K 9,444 1,133.89
R. Villems 179 15K 8,485 1,122.55
Mait Metzpalu 69 12K 2,870 665.13
G. Chaubey 53 6K 1,020 322.03
Klyosov, A. 96 3K 1,168 141.94
Bernard O de M 45 521 348 223.18
Clyde Winters 65 3K 92 56.22

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
@ Quetzalcoatl,


Are these the papers you are referring at, when you spoke of the M1-M3 transposition?


4. Kivisild T, Kaldma K, Metspalu M, Parik J, Papiha S, Villems R. 1999. The place of the Indian mtDNA variants in the global network of maternal lineages and the peopling of the Old World. In Deka R, Papiha SS. eds Genomic Diversity Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers New York p 135–152.


5. Quintana-Murci L, Semino O, Bandelt H-J., Passarino G, McElreavey K, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS. 1999. Genetic evidence of an early exit of Homo sapiens sapiens from Africa through eastern Africa. Nat Genet 23: 437 – 441.

---

quote:

---

. Kivisild (1999) and Quintana-Murci (1999) identified and named different haplotypes, one Indian and one African, as M1. This happens often and the usual procedure is for one of the authors to change the nomenclature. The final arbiter is www.phylotree.org that publishes an updated mtDNA tree. In this case, Quintana-Murci’s (1999) identification of M1 was retained with haplotype markers 16129 16189 16249 16311. Kivisild’s M1 had 16126 as the marker and this haplogroup’s name was changed to M3. The individuals in Kivisild (1999) labeled M1 did not disappear their designation changed to M3. Kivisild’s compliance with the revised nomenclature is seen in Bamshad (2001). Numerous papers including some cited by Winters make it clear that there is no M1 in India although M3 with the 16126 marker (1999’s M1) is definitely found (Bamshad 2001; Maca-Meyer 2001; Kivisild 2003- Dravidians; Metspalu 2004; Rajkumar 2005; Thangaraj 2006) Chandrasekar 2009; Shah 2012). In 2007, Winters (2007) repeated this distortion in a comment to a paper by Chaubey (2006). Chaubey, Metspalu, Kivisild, and Villems (2007) replied and clearly pointed out Winters’ misreporting of their paper. In 2008, Kivisild and Villems pointed this error to Winters by e-mail. Yet, he continues to use this argument and citation. This is academic dishonesty.

References
Bamshad, M, T. Kivisild, et al. 2001 "Genetic Evidence on the Origins
of Indian Caste Populations," Genome Research 11: 994-1004

Chaubey, G., Metspalu, M., Villems, M. R., Kivisild, T. 2007. “Reply to Winters” BioEssays 29(5): 499 Published Online: 20 Apr 2007
DOI: 10.1002/bies.20574.

Chaubey,G, Metspalu, M., Kivisild, T. and Villems, R. 2006 ”Peopling of South Asia: Investigating the Caste-Tribe Continuum in India,” Bio
Essays 29:91-100.

Chandrasekar, et al. 2009 “Updating Phylogeny of Mitochondrial DNA Macrohaplogroup M in India: Dispersal of Modern Human in South Asian Corridor,” PLoS ONE 4(10)e7447.

Kivisild, T. et al. 1999a “Deep common ancestry of Indian and western-Eurasian mitochondrial DNA lineages, Current Biology 9:1331–1334.
Kivisild, T. et al. 1999b “The Place of the Indian mtDNA Variants in the Global Network of Maternal Lineages and the Peopling of the Old World,” In Deka, R.P. ed. Genomic Diversity, 135-152 NY: S.S. Kluwer/Plenum Publishers.

Kivisild, T., et al. 2003 “The Genetic Heritage of the Earliest Settlers Persists Both in Indian Tribal and Caste Populations,” American Journal of Human Genetics 72(2): 313-332

Maca-Meyer, N., et al. 2001 “Major Genomic Mitochondrial Lineages Delineate Early Human Expansions,” BMC Genetics 2:13.

Metspalu, M., et al. 2004 “More of the Extant mtDNA Boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were Likely Shaped During the Initial
Settlement of Eurasia by Anatomically Modern Humans,” BMC Genetics 5:26

Quintana-Murci, L., et al. 1999 "Genetic evidence of an early exit of Homo sapiens sapiens from Africa through eastern Africa," Nature Genetics 23: 437-441.

Rajkumar, R., et al. 2005 “Phylogeny and Antiquity of M Macrohaplogroup Inferred from Complete mtDNA Sequence of Indian Specific Lineages,” BMC Evolutionary Biology 5:26.

Sharma, G., et al. 2012 “Genetic Affinities of the Central Indian Tribal Populations,” PLoS ONE 7(2):e35246.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Quetzalcoatl, is like. It's only peer reviewed if (whites) the western world has reviewed and consigned it.


It's somewhat the mindset of a colonist.


What Quetzalcoatl is saying is that western academia is superior, therefore credible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Quetzalcoatl, is like. It's only peer reviewed if (whites) the western world has reviewed and consigned it.


It's somewhat the mindset of a colonist.


What Quetzalcoatl is saying is that western academia is superior, therefore credible.

---

Science is universal and does not have a color contingent. Scientists from all over the world (with all hues of skin color) publish in the mainline refereed journals. Here is a list of Nobel prize winners by country of birth

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
@ Quetzalcoatl,


Are these the papers you are referring at, when you spoke of the M1-M3 transposition?


4. Kivisild T, Kaldma K, Metspalu M, Parik J, Papiha S, Villems R. 1999. The place of the Indian mtDNA variants in the global network of maternal lineages and the peopling of the Old World. In Deka R, Papiha SS. eds Genomic Diversity Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers New York p 135–152.


5. Quintana-Murci L, Semino O, Bandelt H-J., Passarino G, McElreavey K, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS. 1999. Genetic evidence of an early exit of Homo sapiens sapiens from Africa through eastern Africa. Nat Genet 23: 437 – 441.

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Yes, from my paper in Academia.edu

quote:

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. Kivisild (1999) and Quintana-Murci (1999) identified and named different haplotypes, one Indian and one African, as M1. This happens often and the usual procedure is for one of the authors to change the nomenclature. The final arbiter is www.phylotree.org that publishes an updated mtDNA tree. In this case, Quintana-Murci’s (1999) identification of M1 was retained with haplotype markers 16129 16189 16249 16311. Kivisild’s M1 had 16126 as the marker and this haplogroup’s name was changed to M3. The individuals in Kivisild (1999) labeled M1 did not disappear their designation changed to M3. Kivisild’s compliance with the revised nomenclature is seen in Bamshad (2001). Numerous papers including some cited by Winters make it clear that there is no M1 in India although M3 with the 16126 marker (1999’s M1) is definitely found (Bamshad 2001; Maca-Meyer 2001; Kivisild 2003- Dravidians; Metspalu 2004; Rajkumar 2005; Thangaraj 2006) Chandrasekar 2009; Shah 2012). In 2007, Winters (2007) repeated this distortion in a comment to a paper by Chaubey (2006). Chaubey, Metspalu, Kivisild, and Villems (2007) replied and clearly pointed out Winters’ misreporting of their paper. In 2008, Kivisild and Villems pointed this error to Winters by e-mail. Yet, he continues to use this argument and citation. This is academic dishonesty.

References
Bamshad, M, T. Kivisild, et al. 2001 "Genetic Evidence on the Origins
of Indian Caste Populations," Genome Research 11: 994-1004

Chaubey, G., Metspalu, M., Villems, M. R., Kivisild, T. 2007. “Reply to Winters” BioEssays 29(5): 499 Published Online: 20 Apr 2007
DOI: 10.1002/bies.20574.

Chaubey,G, Metspalu, M., Kivisild, T. and Villems, R. 2006 ”Peopling of South Asia: Investigating the Caste-Tribe Continuum in India,” Bio
Essays 29:91-100.

Chandrasekar, et al. 2009 “Updating Phylogeny of Mitochondrial DNA Macrohaplogroup M in India: Dispersal of Modern Human in South Asian Corridor,” PLoS ONE 4(10)e7447.

Kivisild, T. et al. 1999a “Deep common ancestry of Indian and western-Eurasian mitochondrial DNA lineages, Current Biology 9:1331–1334.
Kivisild, T. et al. 1999b “The Place of the Indian mtDNA Variants in the Global Network of Maternal Lineages and the Peopling of the Old World,” In Deka, R.P. ed. Genomic Diversity, 135-152 NY: S.S. Kluwer/Plenum Publishers.

Kivisild, T., et al. 2003 “The Genetic Heritage of the Earliest Settlers Persists Both in Indian Tribal and Caste Populations,” American Journal of Human Genetics 72(2): 313-332

Maca-Meyer, N., et al. 2001 “Major Genomic Mitochondrial Lineages Delineate Early Human Expansions,” BMC Genetics 2:13.

Metspalu, M., et al. 2004 “More of the Extant mtDNA Boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were Likely Shaped During the Initial
Settlement of Eurasia by Anatomically Modern Humans,” BMC Genetics 5:26

Quintana-Murci, L., et al. 1999 "Genetic evidence of an early exit of Homo sapiens sapiens from Africa through eastern Africa," Nature Genetics 23: 437-441.

Rajkumar, R., et al. 2005 “Phylogeny and Antiquity of M Macrohaplogroup Inferred from Complete mtDNA Sequence of Indian Specific Lineages,” BMC Evolutionary Biology 5:26.

Sharma, G., et al. 2012 “Genetic Affinities of the Central Indian Tribal Populations,” PLoS ONE 7(2):e35246.

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