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The cited paper (Winters, 2014) has avoided, unfortunately, an approval by the Editor-in-Chief, and slipped through to the Journal. The problem is that the paper contains several wrong and many highly questionable statements. As it happens with some authors, they selectively cite some references, often placing quotes out of context, ignore other references and data, which contradict their views. The above is a brief description of the cited article that is grossly misleading.

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This comment considers a paper by C. Winters recently published in Advances in Anthropology, as well as some of his related papers, concerning the “origin of haplogroup R1 in Africa”, “Neanderthals originated in Africa”, “Neanderthals spread from Morocco to East Africa”, “the Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoisan”, and other inventions which do not belong to this Journal.

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Overall, the paper represents a collection of assorted quotations and declarations, many of them without any link to the title and/or the main subject of the paper. Most of declarations do not have links to any scientific reference, many of them reflect certain confusions, some references and data are taken out of context and described in a distorted manner.
Here is a typical example of the author’s style and reliability of quotations. In his preceding paper, entitled “Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173” (Winters, 2011) , the author writes: “The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b)… (Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data indicate the successful colonization of Asia by Sub-Saharan Africans from Nubia 5 - 4 kya”. If the reader looks up at the Naidoo et al. paper, it shows that the great majority of R1b-M343 haplotypes were found among South African Whites (81 out of 157), while Khoe-san contain three R1b-M343 haplotypes out of 183. Mr. Winters did not even mention such a discrepancy, which brings a different angle at the data.
Here is another example. In the same paper (Winters, 2011) he writes on “widespread distribution of R1*- M173 in Africa, that ranges between 7% - 95% and averages 39% (Coia et al., 2005) ”. He repeats the same “quotation” in yet another paper (Winters, 2010) ―“The frequency of Y-chromosome R1*-M173 in Africa range between 7% - 95% and averages 39.5% (Coia et al., 2005)”. However, in the referenced paper Coia et al. (2005) describe the frequency of R1*-M173 only in Cameroon, “with the highest frequency in North Cameroon (from 6.7% among the Tali to 95.2% among the Uldeme”. Mr. Winters did not mention that the figures were related not to “widespread distribution in Africa”, but specifically to North Cameroon, which is known since at least 2002(Cruciani et al., 2002, 2010) . In the same manner Mr. Winters “quote” data by Berniell-Lee et al. (2009) , who had reported that 5.2% of R1b1* were identified in Cameroon and neighboring Gabon, and “quote” it as follows “Haplogroup R1b1* is found in Africa…Berniell-Lee et al. (2005) found in their study that 5.2% carried Rb1*” (spelling by Winters, 2011 ). As one sees again, Cameroon and Gabon were not mentioned, only “found in Africa 5.2%…”.
Here is yet another example. According to Winters (2011) , “The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy populations ranged from 1% - 25% (Berniell-Lee et al., 2009) ”. In fact, Figure 1 in the Berniell-Lee et al. paper shows only two individuals having R1b1*, one from Baka tribe (out of 33 tested) in Gabon, and one from Bakola tribe (out of 22 tested) in Cameroon. So much for 1% - 25%. The list of misquotations can go on. That was a basis for the “African origin of R1-M173”.
Let us review an “age” of the R1b1* lineages in Cameroon and Gabon, based on haplotypes listed in (Berniell-Lee et al., 2009) . Figure 1 shows a haplotype tree, which is split into two distinct branches, on the left- and right-hand sides.
The right-hand side branch coalesces to the base (deduced ancestral) haplotype:
13 24 15 11 13 16 12 13 14 13 16 14 11 12 12 11 11 12 11
All 27 haplotypes of the branch contain 81 mutations from the base haplotype. It gives 81/27/0.0243 = 123 à 141 conditional generations (of 25 years each, see Klyosov, 2012 ); that is 3525 ± 530 years from a common ancestor of the branch. Here the arrow shows a correction for back mutations (Klyosov, 2009, 2012) , the margin of error calculated as described in (Klyosov, 2009) .
The left-hand side branch has the following base haplotype:
12 24 15 10 13 15 12 12 14 12 14 14 10 12 12 11 11 12 11
All 19 haplotypes of the branch contain 46 mutations. It gives 46/19/0.0243 = 100 à 111 conditional generations, that is 2775 ± 495 years from a common ancestor of the branch. One can see that the two populations could have migrated to Gabon about the same time (within the margin of error of the calculations), in the I-II millennium BC, and that time was not, of course, the time of “origin” of haplogroup R1. The latter arose around 26,000 years ago, in Central Asia, apparently in South Siberia (Klyosov, 2012) . Indeed, an excavated haplogroup R was recently identified in South Siberia (near the lake of Baikal), with an archaeological date of 24,000 years ago (Balter, 2013;Raghavan et al., 2013) .
In the same manner and style of misquotations and distorted “information”, Mr. Winters continues in his latest paper in Adv. Anthropol. (2014). He writes in the beginning of the paper―“Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin”, and “Klyosov argued that…ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans”. However, this is not the case in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) . The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans. There is nothing in the paper about “back migration of Europeans” to Africa, let alone “pale skinned Europeans”. Those are all inventions of Mr. Winters.
In other words, the paper (Klyosov, 2014) has nothing to do with the title of Mr. Winters article―“Were the first Europeans pale of dark skinned?” Apparently, Mr. Winters was seriously confused.

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Indeed, the paper by Winters (2014) is grossly misleading

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New work [20–22] has addressed the Neolithic transition in Europe by focusing on the main western European Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1b2-M269 (hereafter referred to as R-M269). This lineage had hitherto received little recent attention in this context, although previous work suggested that the broader R-M173 clade (excluding the R1a-M17 sub-lineage) and Haplogroup 1 (derived at single nucleotide polymorphism, or SNP, 92r7) are likely to have spread into Europe during the Palaeolithic [17,18,23], and therefore unlikely to have been carried into Europe with the migrating farmers. Balaresque et al.

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Sub-Saharan African Y chromosome diversity is represented by five main haplogroups (hgs): A, B, E, J, and R (Underhill et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; Tishkoff et al. 2007). Hgs J and R are geographically restricted to eastern and central Africa, respectively, whereas hg E shows a wider continental distribution (see also Berniell-Lee et al. 2009; Cruciani et al. 2010).

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An independent high resolution MSY phylogeny has been recently obtained from 2,870 Y-SNPs discovered (or re- discovered) in the course of a large whole-genome re-sequencing study, but the observed variable sites all belong to the recent ‘‘out of Africa’’ CT clade [15]. Recently, in a re-sequencing study of the Y chromosome, the root of the tree moved to a new position and several changes at the basal nodes of the phylogeny were introduced [16]

[..]


Phylogenetic Mapping

Most of the mutations here analyzed belong to the African portion of the MSY phylogeny, which is comprised of haplogroups A1b, A1a, A2, A3 and B [16]. Through phylogenetic mapping it was possible to identify 15 new African haplogroups and to resolve one basal trifurcation (Figure 1). A new deep branch within the ‘‘out of Africa’’ haplogroup C was also identified (Figure S1).

Haplogroup A1b. The P114 mutation, which defines hap- logroup A1b according to Karafet et al. [14], had been detected in central-western Africa at very low frequencies (in total, three chromosomes from Cameroon) [16,19].

[...]

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1). Six haplogroup C chromosomes (samples 34–39 in Table S1) were analyzed for the eleven haplogroup C- specific mutations [16] and for SNPs defining branches C1 to C6 in the tree by Karafet et al. [14] (Figure S1). Through this analysis we identified a chromosome from southern Europe as a new deep branch within haplogroup C (C-V20 or C7, Figure S1). Previously, only a few examples of C chromosomes (only defined by the marker RPS4Y711) had been found in southern Europe [32,33]. To improve our knowledge regarding the distribution of haplogroup C in Europe, we surveyed 1965 European subjects for the mutation RPS4Y711 and identified one additional haplogroup C chromosome from southern Europe, which has also been classified as C7 (data not shown). Further studies are needed to establish whether C7 chromosomes are the relics of an ancient European gene pool or the signal of a recent geographical spread from Asia. Two mutations, V248 and V87, which had never been previously described, were found to be specific to haplogroups C2 and C3, respectively (Figure S1). Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

[...]

Supporting Information

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).
(TIF)

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does the present MSY tree compare with the backbone of the recently published “reference” MSY phylogeny?13 The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13

[...]

deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites).

[...]


The first branching in the MSY tree has been reported to be the one that separates the African-specific clade A (called clade I in 10) from clade BT (clade II-X in 10), whereas the second branching determines the subdivision of BT in clades B, mostly African, and CT, which comprises the majority of African and all non-African chromosomes.13,14 This branching pattern, along with the geographical distribu- tion of the major clades A, B, and CT, has been interpreted as supporting an African origin for anatomically modern humans,10 with Khoisan from south Africa and Ethiopians from east Africa sharing the deepest lineages of the phylogeny.15,16

[...]

To test the robustness of the backbone and the root of current Y chromosome phylogeny, we searched for SNPs that might be informative in this respect. To this aim, a resequencing analysis of a 205.9 kb MSY portion (183.5 kb in the X-degenerate and 22.4 kb in the X-transposed region) was performed for each of seven chromosomes that are representative of clade A (four chromosomes belonging to haplogroups A1a, A1b, A2, and A3), clade B, and clade CT (two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R) (Table S1 available online).

The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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The Y chromosome Alu polymorphism (YAP, also called M1) defines the deep-rooted haplogroup D/E of the global Y-chromosome phylogeny [1]. This D/E haplogroup is further branched into three sub-haplogroups DE*, D and E (Figure 1). The distribution of the D/E haplogroup is highly regional, and the three subgroups are geographically restricted to certain areas, therefore informative in tracing human prehistory (Table 1). The sub-haplogroup DE*, presumably the most ancient lineage of the D/E haplogroup was only found in Africans from Nigeria [2], supporting the "Out of Africa" hypothesis about modern human origin. The sub-haplogroup E (E-M40), defined by M40/SRY4064 and M96, was also suggested originated in Africa [3-6], and later dispersed to Middle East and Europe about 20,000 years ago [3,4]. Interestingly, the sub-haplogroup D defined by M174 (D-M174) is East Asian specific with abundant appearance in Tibetan and Japanese (30–40%), but rare in most of other East Asian populations and populations from regions bordering East Asia (Central Asia, North Asia and Middle East) (usually less than 5%) [5-7]. Under D-M174, Japanese belongs to a separate sub-lineage defined by several mutations (e.g. M55, M57 and M64 etc.), which is different from those in Tibetans implicating relatively deep divergence between them [1]. The fragmented distribution of D-M174 in East Asia seems not consistent with the pattern of other East Asian specific lineages, i.e. O3-M122, O1-M119 and O2-M95 under haplogroup O [8,9].

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Further refinement awaits the finding of new markers especially within paragroup E3a*-M2. The microsatellite profile of the DE* individual is one mutational step away from the allelic state described for Nigerians (DYS390*21, DYS388 not tested; [37], therefore suggesting a common ancestry but not elucidating the phylogenetics.

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There has been considerable debate on the geographic origin of the human Y chromosome Alu polymor- phism (YAP). Here we report a new, very rare deep-rooting haplogroup within the YAP clade, together with data on other deep-rooting YAP clades. The new haplogroup, found so far in only five Nigerians, is the least-derived YAP haplogroup according to currently known binary markers. However, because the interior branching order of the Y chromosome genealogical tree remains unknown, it is impossible to impute the origin of the YAP clade with certainty. We discuss the problems presented by rare deep-rooting lineages for Y chromosome phylogeography.

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Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
[URL] http://file.scirp.org/Html/2-1590439_51973.htm[/URL]

Advances in Anthropology
Vol.04 No.04(2014), Article ID:51973,4 pages
10.4236/aa.2014.44024

"A Comment on the Paper: Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? (by C. Winters, Advances in Anthropology, 2014, 4, 124-132)"


Finally, a peer review of a paper by Clyde Winters, though the journal is Open Access it has peer review unlike most of the journals Winter’s publishes in. The reviewer would have recommended not publishing.

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The cited paper (Winters, 2014) has avoided, unfortunately, an approval by the Editor-in-Chief, and slipped through to the Journal. The problem is that the paper contains several wrong and many highly questionable statements. As it happens with some authors, they selectively cite some references, often placing quotes out of context, ignore other references and data, which contradict their views. The above is a brief description of the cited article that is grossly misleading.

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The Abstract points out that several related papers, i.e.
Winters, C. (2010). The Kushite spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences, 2, 294-299. and
Winters, C. (2011). Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173. International Journal of Science and Nature, 2, 743-745.
are also problematic.

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This comment considers a paper by C. Winters recently published in Advances in Anthropology, as well as some of his related papers, concerning the “origin of haplogroup R1 in Africa”, “Neanderthals originated in Africa”, “Neanderthals spread from Morocco to East Africa”, “the Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoisan”, and other inventions which do not belong to this Journal.

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The most relevant part concerns Winters’s claims about R1-M173

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Overall, the paper represents a collection of assorted quotations and declarations, many of them without any link to the title and/or the main subject of the paper. Most of declarations do not have links to any scientific reference, many of them reflect certain confusions, some references and data are taken out of context and described in a distorted manner.
Here is a typical example of the author’s style and reliability of quotations. In his preceding paper, entitled “Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173” (Winters, 2011) , the author writes: “The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b)… (Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data indicate the successful colonization of Asia by Sub-Saharan Africans from Nubia 5 - 4 kya”. If the reader looks up at the Naidoo et al. paper, it shows that the great majority of R1b-M343 haplotypes were found among South African Whites (81 out of 157), while Khoe-san contain three R1b-M343 haplotypes out of 183. Mr. Winters did not even mention such a discrepancy, which brings a different angle at the data.
Here is another example. In the same paper (Winters, 2011) he writes on “widespread distribution of R1*- M173 in Africa, that ranges between 7% - 95% and averages 39% (Coia et al., 2005) ”. He repeats the same “quotation” in yet another paper (Winters, 2010) ―“The frequency of Y-chromosome R1*-M173 in Africa range between 7% - 95% and averages 39.5% (Coia et al., 2005)”. However, in the referenced paper Coia et al. (2005) describe the frequency of R1*-M173 only in Cameroon, “with the highest frequency in North Cameroon (from 6.7% among the Tali to 95.2% among the Uldeme”. Mr. Winters did not mention that the figures were related not to “widespread distribution in Africa”, but specifically to North Cameroon, which is known since at least 2002(Cruciani et al., 2002, 2010) . In the same manner Mr. Winters “quote” data by Berniell-Lee et al. (2009) , who had reported that 5.2% of R1b1* were identified in Cameroon and neighboring Gabon, and “quote” it as follows “Haplogroup R1b1* is found in Africa…Berniell-Lee et al. (2005) found in their study that 5.2% carried Rb1*” (spelling by Winters, 2011 ). As one sees again, Cameroon and Gabon were not mentioned, only “found in Africa 5.2%…”.
Here is yet another example. According to Winters (2011) , “The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy populations ranged from 1% - 25% (Berniell-Lee et al., 2009) ”. In fact, Figure 1 in the Berniell-Lee et al. paper shows only two individuals having R1b1*, one from Baka tribe (out of 33 tested) in Gabon, and one from Bakola tribe (out of 22 tested) in Cameroon. So much for 1% - 25%. The list of misquotations can go on. That was a basis for the “African origin of R1-M173”.
Let us review an “age” of the R1b1* lineages in Cameroon and Gabon, based on haplotypes listed in (Berniell-Lee et al., 2009) . Figure 1 shows a haplotype tree, which is split into two distinct branches, on the left- and right-hand sides.
The right-hand side branch coalesces to the base (deduced ancestral) haplotype:
13 24 15 11 13 16 12 13 14 13 16 14 11 12 12 11 11 12 11
All 27 haplotypes of the branch contain 81 mutations from the base haplotype. It gives 81/27/0.0243 = 123 à 141 conditional generations (of 25 years each, see Klyosov, 2012 ); that is 3525 ± 530 years from a common ancestor of the branch. Here the arrow shows a correction for back mutations (Klyosov, 2009, 2012) , the margin of error calculated as described in (Klyosov, 2009) .
The left-hand side branch has the following base haplotype:
12 24 15 10 13 15 12 12 14 12 14 14 10 12 12 11 11 12 11
All 19 haplotypes of the branch contain 46 mutations. It gives 46/19/0.0243 = 100 à 111 conditional generations, that is 2775 ± 495 years from a common ancestor of the branch. One can see that the two populations could have migrated to Gabon about the same time (within the margin of error of the calculations), in the I-II millennium BC, and that time was not, of course, the time of “origin” of haplogroup R1. The latter arose around 26,000 years ago, in Central Asia, apparently in South Siberia (Klyosov, 2012) . Indeed, an excavated haplogroup R was recently identified in South Siberia (near the lake of Baikal), with an archaeological date of 24,000 years ago (Balter, 2013;Raghavan et al., 2013) .
In the same manner and style of misquotations and distorted “information”, Mr. Winters continues in his latest paper in Adv. Anthropol. (2014). He writes in the beginning of the paper―“Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin”, and “Klyosov argued that…ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans”. However, this is not the case in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) . The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans. There is nothing in the paper about “back migration of Europeans” to Africa, let alone “pale skinned Europeans”. Those are all inventions of Mr. Winters.
In other words, the paper (Klyosov, 2014) has nothing to do with the title of Mr. Winters article―“Were the first Europeans pale of dark skinned?” Apparently, Mr. Winters was seriously confused.

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The review ends with

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Indeed, the paper by Winters (2014) is grossly misleading

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Abstract
This is an overview of the Out of Africa (OoA) settlement of Europe during the Aurignacian period.
Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin, and Neanderthal who never lived in Africa. Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa and between 139 kya and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa. The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans
were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans who carried mtDNA haplogroup N and Y-chromosome C6 into
Europe.

Keywords

Haplogroup, Neanderthal, Phenotype, Skeletal, Mousterian, mtDNA, SLC24A5

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The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans.

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“Ancestors of the most present-day non-Africans did not come from Africa in the last 30,000 - 600,000 years at least. In other words, those who migrated from Africa, or were forcefully taken out as slaves, are not ancestors of the contemporary Europeans, Asians, Native Americans, Australians, Polynesians. This follows from the whole multitude of data in anthropology, genetics, archaeology, DNA genealogy. Study of the DNA of excavated bones of Neanderthals has shown in them MCR1 melanocortin receptor, in the same variant as that in modern humans, which makes pale skin and red hair, observed in modern humans (Lalueza-Fox et al., 2007), though, according to the study authors, humans did not inherit MCR1 from Neanderthals. There was not any data that Neanderthals were Black Africans. Indeed, no Neanderthals were found in Africa.”

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Strong waves of immigration have not been extensive until now, and the largest area of the island has been managed by the indigenous population through most of its human history – a recent molecular study (CERNY et al. 2009) showed that the Socotrans are not a genetic mixture of immigrants and local people, as previously believed.

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The Soqotra archipelago is one of the most isolated landmasses in the world, situated at the mouth of the Gulf of Aden between the Horn of Africa and southern Arabia. The main island of Soqotra lies not far from the proposed southern migration route of anatomically modern humans out of Africa ∼60,000 years ago (kya), suggesting the island may harbor traces of that first dispersal. Nothing is known about the timing and origin of the first Soqotri settlers. The oldest historical visitors to the island in the 15th century reported only the presence of an ancient population. We collected samples throughout the island and analyzed mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal variation. We found little African influence among the indigenous people of the island. Although the island population likely experienced founder effects, links to the Arabian Peninsula or southwestern Asia can still be found. In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups. Specifically, we identified two high-frequency founder lineages that have not been detected in any other populations and classified them as a new R0a1a1 subclade. Recent expansion of the novel lineages is consistent with a Holocene settlement of the island ∼6 kya.

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
My paper was published in the same journal that published Klyosov (2014) i.e., Winters, C. (2014). Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? Advances in Anthropology, 4,
124-132. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.43016 . As a result, the article was peer reviewed. This paper was not about R1, as noted from the abstract.

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Abstract
This is an overview of the Out of Africa (OoA) settlement of Europe during the Aurignacian period.
Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin, and Neanderthal who never lived in Africa. Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa and between 139 kya and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa. The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans
were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans who carried mtDNA haplogroup N and Y-chromosome C6 into
Europe.

Keywords

Haplogroup, Neanderthal, Phenotype, Skeletal, Mousterian, mtDNA, SLC24A5

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Klyosov wrote:

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The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans.

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This was false as I noted in the introduction to my paper.

“Introduction
Were the first Europeans dark or pale skinned? Klyosov (2014), argued that the Neanderthals and ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans. Klyosov (2014) claimed that archaeology and paleoanthropology data of African skeletal material did not tell us much about the origin of African and non-African populations. Finally, Klyosov (2014) argued that that there was no archaeological proof of the appearance of anatomically modern humans (AMH) in Africa dating before 100 kya. He wrote:

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“Ancestors of the most present-day non-Africans did not come from Africa in the last 30,000 - 600,000 years at least. In other words, those who migrated from Africa, or were forcefully taken out as slaves, are not ancestors of the contemporary Europeans, Asians, Native Americans, Australians, Polynesians. This follows from the whole multitude of data in anthropology, genetics, archaeology, DNA genealogy. Study of the DNA of excavated bones of Neanderthals has shown in them MCR1 melanocortin receptor, in the same variant as that in modern humans, which makes pale skin and red hair, observed in modern humans (Lalueza-Fox et al., 2007), though, according to the study authors, humans did not inherit MCR1 from Neanderthals. There was not any data that Neanderthals were Black Africans. Indeed, no Neanderthals were found in Africa.”

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Although this is the opinion of Klyosov (2014) the archaeological and genetic evidence does not support his conclusion. The skeletal and archaeological evidence made it clear that the first Europeans were probably dark skin, not pale skin.”

In the paper I illustrate that the first Europeans and Neanderthals were Black. He could not refute the evidence so he talked about R1.

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

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Strong waves of immigration have not been extensive until now, and the largest area of the island has been managed by the indigenous population through most of its human history – a recent molecular study (CERNY et al. 2009) showed that the Socotrans are not a genetic mixture of immigrants and local people, as previously believed.

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http://www.socotraproject.org/userfiles/files/Van%20Damme%20%20Banfield%202011%20Socotra%20Conservation.pdf

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The Soqotra archipelago is one of the most isolated landmasses in the world, situated at the mouth of the Gulf of Aden between the Horn of Africa and southern Arabia. The main island of Soqotra lies not far from the proposed southern migration route of anatomically modern humans out of Africa ∼60,000 years ago (kya), suggesting the island may harbor traces of that first dispersal. Nothing is known about the timing and origin of the first Soqotri settlers. The oldest historical visitors to the island in the 15th century reported only the presence of an ancient population. We collected samples throughout the island and analyzed mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal variation. We found little African influence among the indigenous people of the island. Although the island population likely experienced founder effects, links to the Arabian Peninsula or southwestern Asia can still be found. In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups. Specifically, we identified two high-frequency founder lineages that have not been detected in any other populations and classified them as a new R0a1a1 subclade. Recent expansion of the novel lineages is consistent with a Holocene settlement of the island ∼6 kya.

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--Viktor Černý, Am J Phys Anthropol, 2009

Out of Arabia—The settlement of Island Soqotra as revealed by mitochondrial and Y chromosome genetic diversity

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20960/abstract

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Socotrans

Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
My paper was published in the same journal that published Klyosov (2014) i.e., Winters, C. (2014). Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? Advances in Anthropology, 4,
124-132. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.43016 . As a result, the article was peer reviewed. This paper was not about R1, as noted from the abstract.

quote:

---

Abstract
This is an overview of the Out of Africa (OoA) settlement of Europe during the Aurignacian period.
Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin, and Neanderthal who never lived in Africa. Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa and between 139 kya and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa. The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans
were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans who carried mtDNA haplogroup N and Y-chromosome C6 into
Europe.

Keywords

Haplogroup, Neanderthal, Phenotype, Skeletal, Mousterian, mtDNA, SLC24A5

---

Klyosov wrote:

quote:

---

The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans.

---

This was false as I noted in the introduction to my paper.

“Introduction
Were the first Europeans dark or pale skinned? Klyosov (2014), argued that the Neanderthals and ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans. Klyosov (2014) claimed that archaeology and paleoanthropology data of African skeletal material did not tell us much about the origin of African and non-African populations. Finally, Klyosov (2014) argued that that there was no archaeological proof of the appearance of anatomically modern humans (AMH) in Africa dating before 100 kya. He wrote:

quote:

---

“Ancestors of the most present-day non-Africans did not come from Africa in the last 30,000 - 600,000 years at least. In other words, those who migrated from Africa, or were forcefully taken out as slaves, are not ancestors of the contemporary Europeans, Asians, Native Americans, Australians, Polynesians. This follows from the whole multitude of data in anthropology, genetics, archaeology, DNA genealogy. Study of the DNA of excavated bones of Neanderthals has shown in them MCR1 melanocortin receptor, in the same variant as that in modern humans, which makes pale skin and red hair, observed in modern humans (Lalueza-Fox et al., 2007), though, according to the study authors, humans did not inherit MCR1 from Neanderthals. There was not any data that Neanderthals were Black Africans. Indeed, no Neanderthals were found in Africa.”

---

Although this is the opinion of Klyosov (2014) the archaeological and genetic evidence does not support his conclusion. The skeletal and archaeological evidence made it clear that the first Europeans were probably dark skin, not pale skin.”

In the paper I illustrate that the first Europeans and Neanderthals were Black. He could not refute the evidence so he talked about R1.

.

---

As usual. misdirection to avoid a difficulty. The reviewer was focused on your misquoting sources on R-M173 and dealt with several of your papers i.e.

"A Comment on the Paper: Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? (by C. Winters, Advances in Anthropology, 2014, 4, 124-132)"

Winters, C. (2010). The Kushite spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences, 2, 294-299. and
Winters, C. (2011). Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173. International Journal of Science and Nature, 2, 743-745.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

In the paper I illustrate that the first Europeans and Neanderthals were Black. He could not refute the evidence so he talked about R1.

.

---

quote:

---

LOL. How could I have miss quoted any articles when I cited the populations that carried R1-M173. By citing the populations carrying the haplogroup I did not mislead anyone.
.

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Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[qb] My paper was published in the same journal that published Klyosov (2014) i.e., Winters, C. (2014). Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? Advances in Anthropology, 4,
124-132. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.43016 . As a result, the article was peer reviewed. This paper was not about R1, as noted from the abstract.

quote:

---

Abstract
This is an overview of the Out of Africa (OoA) settlement of Europe during the Aurignacian period.
Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin, and Neanderthal who never lived in Africa. Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa and between 139 kya and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa. The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans
were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans who carried mtDNA haplogroup N and Y-chromosome C6 into
Europe.

Keywords

Haplogroup, Neanderthal, Phenotype, Skeletal, Mousterian, mtDNA, SLC24A5

---

Klyosov wrote:

quote:

---

The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans.

---

This was false as I noted in the introduction to my paper.

“Introduction
Were the first Europeans dark or pale skinned? Klyosov (2014), argued that the Neanderthals and ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans. Klyosov (2014) claimed that archaeology and paleoanthropology data of African skeletal material did not tell us much about the origin of African and non-African populations. Finally, Klyosov (2014) argued that that there was no archaeological proof of the appearance of anatomically modern humans (AMH) in Africa dating before 100 kya. He wrote:

quote:

---

“Ancestors of the most present-day non-Africans did not come from Africa in the last 30,000 - 600,000 years at least. In other words, those who migrated from Africa, or were forcefully taken out as slaves, are not ancestors of the contemporary Europeans, Asians, Native Americans, Australians, Polynesians. This follows from the whole multitude of data in anthropology, genetics, archaeology, DNA genealogy. Study of the DNA of excavated bones of Neanderthals has shown in them MCR1 melanocortin receptor, in the same variant as that in modern humans, which makes pale skin and red hair, observed in modern humans (Lalueza-Fox et al., 2007), though, according to the study authors, humans did not inherit MCR1 from Neanderthals. There was not any data that Neanderthals were Black Africans. Indeed, no Neanderthals were found in Africa.”

---

Although this is the opinion of Klyosov (2014) the archaeological and genetic evidence does not support his conclusion. The skeletal and archaeological evidence made it clear that the first Europeans were probably dark skin, not pale skin.”

In the paper I illustrate that the first Europeans and Neanderthals were Black. He could not refute the evidence so he talked about R1.

.

---

]LOL. How could I have miss quoted any articles when I cited the populations that carried R1-M173. By citing the populations carrying the haplogroup I did not mislead anyone.
.

---

quote:

---

In the same manner and style of misquotations and distorted “information”, Mr. Winters continues in his latest paper in Adv. Anthropol. (2014). He writes in the beginning of the paper―“Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin”, and “Klyosov argued that…ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans”. However, this is not the case in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) . The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans. There is nothing in the paper about “back migration of Europeans” to Africa, let alone “pale skinned Europeans”. Those are all inventions of Mr. Winters.
In other words, the paper (Klyosov, 2014) has nothing to do with the title of Mr. Winters article―“Were the first Europeans pale of dark skinned?” Apparently, Mr. Winters was seriously confused. However, Mr. Winters has made several other statements, some of them worth consideration in this Comment; seven of them are as follows:
1) “Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa” (no reference given).

Figure 1. The tree is composed of 46 of 19-marker haplotypes of haplogroup R1b1*, 44 of them from Gabon, and two (the Pygmy individuals) from Cameroon (both are on the right-hand side). The haplotype tree was composed using software PHYLIP, Phylogeny Inference Package program (Felsenstein, 2004) and MEGA, Molecular Evolutionary Genetics Analysis, Version 6.0 (Tamura et al., 2013) . The haplotypes employ the following markers: DYS 393, 390, 19, 391, 385a, 385b, 388, 439, 389-1, 393, 389-2, 437, 460, 438, 436, 462, 434, 461, 435.
2) “Between 139 and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa (Ki-Zerbo, 1981: p. 572)”.
3) “The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans” (no reference given).
4) “Sub-Saharan Africans…carried Y-chromosome C6 into Europe” (no reference given).
5) “The archaeological research makes it clear Neanderthal probably mixed with Africans” (no reference given).
6) “The Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoisan (Boule & Vallois, 1957) ”.
7) “The archaeological and craniometric evidence indicates that the pre-Indo-European people were probably highly pigmented” (no reference given).
Let me explain:
Item 1. I would be delighted to learn of that “archaeological evidence”, that “Neanderthals originated in Africa”. However, alas, there was no reference provided. On the contrary, there are sufficient references that essentially repeat this: “Neanderthals, Homo Neanderthalensis, lived between 350,000 and 24,500 ya, throughout Europe and the Middle East, but…no Neanderthals fossils have yet been found in Africa” (Fuerle, 2008) .
Here is an another quotation, from a paper on genome studies: “Our analysis of human-Neandertal data…confirms previous claims that Neandertals contributed genetically to contemporary Eurasian populations (Green et al., 2010; Sankararaman et al., 2012; Yang et al., 2012) . However, in contrast to previous studies we can conclusively reject long-term population structure in the ancestral African population as an alternative explanation for the excess sharing of derived mutations by Neandertals and Eurasians” (Lohse & Frantz, 2014) .
Since Mr. Winters often cites the book “Fossil Men” by Boule and Vallois (1957) , it would be appropriate to note that in the sizeable chapter “Neandertal Man” (pp. 193-258) the word “Africa” is mentioned only once, in the Conclusions section, in a negative context, that Neanderthals are “very different…from the Eskimoes, the Fuegians, the Bushmen, the Pygmies, African or Asiatic, the Veddas, the Polynesians, the Melanesians, and even from the Australians, with whom attempts at comparison have often been made” (p. 252).
Item 2. Comments in Item 1 show that “spread from Morocco to East Africa” for Neanderthals after “between 139 and 125 kya” is not supported by any archaeological or other data.
Item 3. The archaeological and anthropological” evidence cannot witness the “dark skin” color of “the first Europeans”, much less that they were “Sub-Saharan Africans”. No wonder that no reference was provided. Regarding genetic data, all that they have shown is that “both Loschbour and Stuttgart had dark hair…and Loschbour, like La Braña and Motala12, probably had blue or light colored eyes…whereas Stuttgart probably had brown eyes. Neither Loschbour nor La Braña carries the skin-lightening allele in SLC24A5…” (Lazaridis et al., 2014) . They were not “the first Europeans”, they lived 7000 - 8000 ya. Regarding the first Europeans, there is no genetic data available, and archaeological data on excavated bones do not (and cannot) say anything on their skin color.
Item 4. There is no data that haplogroup/subclade C6 was brought to Europe by “Sub-Saharan Africans”. No wonder that a reference was not provided.
Item 5. There is no archaeological research which “makes it clear” that “Neanderthal probably mixed with Africans”. Neither “clear”, nor “probably”. Genetics does not show such a connection(Vernot & Akey, 2014; Reyes-Centeno et al., 2014; Sankararaman et al., 2014; Lohse & Frantz, 2014) .
Item 6. The statement that “The Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoisan” cannot be considered seriously without more direct data than a reference related to 1915 as “Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast ‘associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type of industry” (Boule & Vallois, 1957: p. 319) .
Item 7. There is no “archaeological and craniometric evidence” that can possibly indicate that “the pre-In- do-European people were probably highly pigmented”. Again, no wonder that a reference was not provided.
Indeed, the paper by Winters (2014) is grossly misleading.


References
1. Balter, M. (2013) . Ancient DNA links Native Americans with Europe. Science, 342, 409-410. http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.342.6157.409
2. Berniell-Lee, G., Calafell, F., Bosch, E., Heyer, E., Sica, L., Mouguiama-Daouda, P., van der Veen, L., Hombert, J.-M., et al. (2009). Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 26, 1581-1589. http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msp069
3. Boule, M., & Vallois, H. V. (1957). Fossil Men. The Dryden Press, New York, 535 p.
4. Coia, V., Destro-Bisol, G., Verginelli, F., Battagia, C., Boschi, I., Cruciani, F., Spedini, G., Comas, D., & Calafell, F. (2005). Brief Communication: mtDNA Variation in North Cameroon: Lack of Asian Lineages and Implications for Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 128, 678-681.http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/ajpa.20138
5. Cruciani, F., Santolamazza, P., Shen, P., Makaulay, V., Moral, P., Olckers. A., Modiano, D., Holmes, S., et al. (2002). A back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes. The American Journal of Human Genetics, 70, 1197-1214. http://dx.doi.org/10.1086/340257
6. Cruciani, F., Trombetta, B., Sellitto, D., Massaia, A., Destro-Bisol, G., Watson, E., Colomb, B. E., Dugoujon, J. M., Moral, P., & Scozzari, R. (2010). Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup R-V88: A Paternal Genetic Record of Early Mid Holocene Trans-Saharan Connections and the Spread of Chadic Languages. European Journal of Human Genetics, 18, 800-807. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
7. Felsenstein, J. (2004). PHYLIP (Phylogeny Inference Package). Seattle, WA: Department of Genome Sciences, University of Washington.
8. Fuerle, R. D. (2008). Erectus Walks among Us. New York: Spooner Press, 340 p.
9. Green, R. E., Krause, J., Briggs, A. W., Maricic, T., Stenzel, U., et al. (2010). A Draft Sequence of the Neanderthal Genome. Science, 328, 710-722.
10. Klyosov, A . A. (2009). DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome. I. Basic Principles and the Method. Journal of Genetic Genealogy, 5, 186-216.
11. Klyosov, A. A. (2012). Ancient History of the Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroup R1b, from Central Asia to Europe, 16,000 to 1500 Years before Present. Advances in Anthropology, 2, 87-105. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2012.22010
12. Klyosov, A. A. (2014). Reconsideration of the “Out of Africa” Concept as Not Having Enough Proof. Advances in Anthropology, 4, 18-37.http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.41004
13. Lazaridis, I., Patterson, N., Mittnik, A., Renaud, G., Mallick, S., Kirsanow, K., Sudmant, P. H., Schraiber, J. G., et al. (2014) Ancient Human Genomes Suggest Three Ancestral Populations for Present-Day Europeans. Nature, 513, 409-413.http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature13673
14. Lohse, K., & Frantz, L. A. F. (2014). Neandertal Admixture in Eurasia Confirmed by Maximum-Likelihood Analysis of Three Genomes. Genetics, 196, 1241-1251.http://dx.doi.org/10.1534/genetics.114.162396
15. Naidoo, T., Schlebusch, C. M., Makkan, H., Patel, P., Mahabeer, R., Erasmus, J. C., & Soodyall, H. (2010). Development of a Single Base Extension Method to Resolve Y Chromosome Haplogroups in Sub-Saharan African Populations. Investigative Genetics, 1, 1-11. http://dx.doi.org/10.1186/2041-2223-1-6
16. Raghavan, M., Skoglund, P., Graf, K. E., Metspalu, M., Albrechtsen, A., Moltke, I., et al. (2013). Upper Palaeolithic Siberian Genome Reveals Dual Ancestry of Native Americans. Nature, 505, 87-91. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature12736
17. Reyes-Centeno, H., Ghirotto, S., Detroit, F., Grimaud-Herve, D., Barbujani, G., & Harvati, K. (2014). Genomic and Cranial Phenotype Data Support Multiple Modern Human Dispersals from Africa and a Southern Route into Asia. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 111, 7248-7253.http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1323666111
18. Sankararaman, S., Mallick, S., Dannemann, M., Prüfer, K., Kelso, J., Pääbo, S., Patterson, N., & Reich, D. (2014). The Genomic Landscape of Neanderthal Ancestry in Present-Day Humans. Nature, 507, 354-357. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature12961
19. Tamura, K., Stecher, G., Peterson, D., Filipski, A., & Kumar, S. (2013). MEGA6: Molecular Evolutionary Genetics Analysis Version 6.0. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 30, 2725-2729. http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/molbev/mst197
20. Vernot, B., & Akey, J. M. (2014). Resurrecting Surviving Neandertal Lineages from Modern Human Genomes. Science, 343, 1017-1021.http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1245938
21. Winters, C. (2010). The Kushite spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences, 2, 294-299.
22. Winters, C. (2011). Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173. International Journal of Science and Nature, 2, 743-745.
23. Winters, C. (2014). Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? Advances in Anthropology, 4, 124-132. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.43016
24. Yang, M. A., Malaspinas, A.-S., Durand, E. Y., & Slatkin, M. (2012). Ancient Structure in Africa Unlikely to Explain Neanderthal and Non-African Genetic Similarity. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 29, 2987-2995. http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/molbev/mss117

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Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


Ancestors of R-V88 (ascending order)

M415
M343
M173
M207

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Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


Ancestors of R-V88 (ascending order)

M415
M343
M173
M207

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Exactly my point. European L11 is, what, 5 mutational steps below R-V88

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
European L11 is, what, 5 mutational steps below R-V88

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Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[qb] My paper was published in the same journal that published Klyosov (2014) i.e., Winters, C. (2014). Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? Advances in Anthropology, 4,
124-132. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.43016 . As a result, the article was peer reviewed. This paper was not about R1, as noted from the abstract.

quote:

---

Abstract
This is an overview of the Out of Africa (OoA) settlement of Europe during the Aurignacian period.
Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin, and Neanderthal who never lived in Africa. Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa and between 139 kya and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa. The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans
were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans who carried mtDNA haplogroup N and Y-chromosome C6 into
Europe.

Keywords

Haplogroup, Neanderthal, Phenotype, Skeletal, Mousterian, mtDNA, SLC24A5

---

Klyosov wrote:

quote:

---

The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans.

---

This was false as I noted in the introduction to my paper.

“Introduction
Were the first Europeans dark or pale skinned? Klyosov (2014), argued that the Neanderthals and ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans. Klyosov (2014) claimed that archaeology and paleoanthropology data of African skeletal material did not tell us much about the origin of African and non-African populations. Finally, Klyosov (2014) argued that that there was no archaeological proof of the appearance of anatomically modern humans (AMH) in Africa dating before 100 kya. He wrote:

quote:

---

“Ancestors of the most present-day non-Africans did not come from Africa in the last 30,000 - 600,000 years at least. In other words, those who migrated from Africa, or were forcefully taken out as slaves, are not ancestors of the contemporary Europeans, Asians, Native Americans, Australians, Polynesians. This follows from the whole multitude of data in anthropology, genetics, archaeology, DNA genealogy. Study of the DNA of excavated bones of Neanderthals has shown in them MCR1 melanocortin receptor, in the same variant as that in modern humans, which makes pale skin and red hair, observed in modern humans (Lalueza-Fox et al., 2007), though, according to the study authors, humans did not inherit MCR1 from Neanderthals. There was not any data that Neanderthals were Black Africans. Indeed, no Neanderthals were found in Africa.”

---

Although this is the opinion of Klyosov (2014) the archaeological and genetic evidence does not support his conclusion. The skeletal and archaeological evidence made it clear that the first Europeans were probably dark skin, not pale skin.”

In the paper I illustrate that the first Europeans and Neanderthals were Black. He could not refute the evidence so he talked about R1.

.

---

]LOL. How could I have miss quoted any articles when I cited the populations that carried R1-M173. By citing the populations carrying the haplogroup I did not mislead anyone.
.

---

First, the reviewer of your article was anonymous ,chosen by the editor of the Journal, not Klysov. And, contrary to what you said that the reviewer could not deal with your Neanderthal stuff-- he did as well as some more on your R-M173 as follows:

quote:

---

In the same manner and style of misquotations and distorted “information”, Mr. Winters continues in his latest paper in Adv. Anthropol. (2014). He writes in the beginning of the paper―“Klyosov claims that the first Europeans were fair (pale) skin”, and “Klyosov argued that…ancient Europeans were fair (pale) skin and that most African haplogroups were the result of a back migration of pale skinned Europeans”. However, this is not the case in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) . The words “Europeans” and “skin” are never used in the paper next to each other, or in any other combination. There is nothing in the paper (Klyosov, 2014) regarding skin color of Europeans. There is nothing in the paper about “back migration of Europeans” to Africa, let alone “pale skinned Europeans”. Those are all inventions of Mr. Winters.
In other words, the paper (Klyosov, 2014) has nothing to do with the title of Mr. Winters article―“Were the first Europeans pale of dark skinned?” Apparently, Mr. Winters was seriously confused. However, Mr. Winters has made several other statements, some of them worth consideration in this Comment; seven of them are as follows:
1) “Archaeological evidence indicated that Neanderthals originated in Africa” (no reference given).

Figure 1. The tree is composed of 46 of 19-marker haplotypes of haplogroup R1b1*, 44 of them from Gabon, and two (the Pygmy individuals) from Cameroon (both are on the right-hand side). The haplotype tree was composed using software PHYLIP, Phylogeny Inference Package program (Felsenstein, 2004) and MEGA, Molecular Evolutionary Genetics Analysis, Version 6.0 (Tamura et al., 2013) . The haplotypes employ the following markers: DYS 393, 390, 19, 391, 385a, 385b, 388, 439, 389-1, 393, 389-2, 437, 460, 438, 436, 462, 434, 461, 435.
2) “Between 139 and 125 kya the Neanderthals migrated back into Africa and spread from Morocco to East Africa (Ki-Zerbo, 1981: p. 572)”.
3) “The archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence indicated that the first Europeans were dark skin Sub-Saharan Africans” (no reference given).
4) “Sub-Saharan Africans…carried Y-chromosome C6 into Europe” (no reference given).
5) “The archaeological research makes it clear Neanderthal probably mixed with Africans” (no reference given).
6) “The Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoisan (Boule & Vallois, 1957) ”.
7) “The archaeological and craniometric evidence indicates that the pre-Indo-European people were probably highly pigmented” (no reference given).
Let me explain:
Item 1. I would be delighted to learn of that “archaeological evidence”, that “Neanderthals originated in Africa”. However, alas, there was no reference provided. On the contrary, there are sufficient references that essentially repeat this: “Neanderthals, Homo Neanderthalensis, lived between 350,000 and 24,500 ya, throughout Europe and the Middle East, but…no Neanderthals fossils have yet been found in Africa” (Fuerle, 2008) .
Here is an another quotation, from a paper on genome studies: “Our analysis of human-Neandertal data…confirms previous claims that Neandertals contributed genetically to contemporary Eurasian populations (Green et al., 2010; Sankararaman et al., 2012; Yang et al., 2012) . However, in contrast to previous studies we can conclusively reject long-term population structure in the ancestral African population as an alternative explanation for the excess sharing of derived mutations by Neandertals and Eurasians” (Lohse & Frantz, 2014) .
Since Mr. Winters often cites the book “Fossil Men” by Boule and Vallois (1957) , it would be appropriate to note that in the sizeable chapter “Neandertal Man” (pp. 193-258) the word “Africa” is mentioned only once, in the Conclusions section, in a negative context, that Neanderthals are “very different…from the Eskimoes, the Fuegians, the Bushmen, the Pygmies, African or Asiatic, the Veddas, the Polynesians, the Melanesians, and even from the Australians, with whom attempts at comparison have often been made” (p. 252).
Item 2. Comments in Item 1 show that “spread from Morocco to East Africa” for Neanderthals after “between 139 and 125 kya” is not supported by any archaeological or other data.
Item 3. The archaeological and anthropological” evidence cannot witness the “dark skin” color of “the first Europeans”, much less that they were “Sub-Saharan Africans”. No wonder that no reference was provided. Regarding genetic data, all that they have shown is that “both Loschbour and Stuttgart had dark hair…and Loschbour, like La Braña and Motala12, probably had blue or light colored eyes…whereas Stuttgart probably had brown eyes. Neither Loschbour nor La Braña carries the skin-lightening allele in SLC24A5…” (Lazaridis et al., 2014) . They were not “the first Europeans”, they lived 7000 - 8000 ya. Regarding the first Europeans, there is no genetic data available, and archaeological data on excavated bones do not (and cannot) say anything on their skin color.
Item 4. There is no data that haplogroup/subclade C6 was brought to Europe by “Sub-Saharan Africans”. No wonder that a reference was not provided.
Item 5. There is no archaeological research which “makes it clear” that “Neanderthal probably mixed with Africans”. Neither “clear”, nor “probably”. Genetics does not show such a connection(Vernot & Akey, 2014; Reyes-Centeno et al., 2014; Sankararaman et al., 2014; Lohse & Frantz, 2014) .
Item 6. The statement that “The Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoisan” cannot be considered seriously without more direct data than a reference related to 1915 as “Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast ‘associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type of industry” (Boule & Vallois, 1957: p. 319) .
Item 7. There is no “archaeological and craniometric evidence” that can possibly indicate that “the pre-In- do-European people were probably highly pigmented”. Again, no wonder that a reference was not provided.
Indeed, the paper by Winters (2014) is grossly misleading.


References
1. Balter, M. (2013) . Ancient DNA links Native Americans with Europe. Science, 342, 409-410. http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.342.6157.409
2. Berniell-Lee, G., Calafell, F., Bosch, E., Heyer, E., Sica, L., Mouguiama-Daouda, P., van der Veen, L., Hombert, J.-M., et al. (2009). Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 26, 1581-1589. http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msp069
3. Boule, M., & Vallois, H. V. (1957). Fossil Men. The Dryden Press, New York, 535 p.
4. Coia, V., Destro-Bisol, G., Verginelli, F., Battagia, C., Boschi, I., Cruciani, F., Spedini, G., Comas, D., & Calafell, F. (2005). Brief Communication: mtDNA Variation in North Cameroon: Lack of Asian Lineages and Implications for Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 128, 678-681.http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/ajpa.20138
5. Cruciani, F., Santolamazza, P., Shen, P., Makaulay, V., Moral, P., Olckers. A., Modiano, D., Holmes, S., et al. (2002). A back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes. The American Journal of Human Genetics, 70, 1197-1214. http://dx.doi.org/10.1086/340257
6. Cruciani, F., Trombetta, B., Sellitto, D., Massaia, A., Destro-Bisol, G., Watson, E., Colomb, B. E., Dugoujon, J. M., Moral, P., & Scozzari, R. (2010). Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup R-V88: A Paternal Genetic Record of Early Mid Holocene Trans-Saharan Connections and the Spread of Chadic Languages. European Journal of Human Genetics, 18, 800-807. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
7. Felsenstein, J. (2004). PHYLIP (Phylogeny Inference Package). Seattle, WA: Department of Genome Sciences, University of Washington.
8. Fuerle, R. D. (2008). Erectus Walks among Us. New York: Spooner Press, 340 p.
9. Green, R. E., Krause, J., Briggs, A. W., Maricic, T., Stenzel, U., et al. (2010). A Draft Sequence of the Neanderthal Genome. Science, 328, 710-722.
10. Klyosov, A . A. (2009). DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome. I. Basic Principles and the Method. Journal of Genetic Genealogy, 5, 186-216.
11. Klyosov, A. A. (2012). Ancient History of the Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroup R1b, from Central Asia to Europe, 16,000 to 1500 Years before Present. Advances in Anthropology, 2, 87-105. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2012.22010
12. Klyosov, A. A. (2014). Reconsideration of the “Out of Africa” Concept as Not Having Enough Proof. Advances in Anthropology, 4, 18-37.http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.41004
13. Lazaridis, I., Patterson, N., Mittnik, A., Renaud, G., Mallick, S., Kirsanow, K., Sudmant, P. H., Schraiber, J. G., et al. (2014) Ancient Human Genomes Suggest Three Ancestral Populations for Present-Day Europeans. Nature, 513, 409-413.http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature13673
14. Lohse, K., & Frantz, L. A. F. (2014). Neandertal Admixture in Eurasia Confirmed by Maximum-Likelihood Analysis of Three Genomes. Genetics, 196, 1241-1251.http://dx.doi.org/10.1534/genetics.114.162396
15. Naidoo, T., Schlebusch, C. M., Makkan, H., Patel, P., Mahabeer, R., Erasmus, J. C., & Soodyall, H. (2010). Development of a Single Base Extension Method to Resolve Y Chromosome Haplogroups in Sub-Saharan African Populations. Investigative Genetics, 1, 1-11. http://dx.doi.org/10.1186/2041-2223-1-6
16. Raghavan, M., Skoglund, P., Graf, K. E., Metspalu, M., Albrechtsen, A., Moltke, I., et al. (2013). Upper Palaeolithic Siberian Genome Reveals Dual Ancestry of Native Americans. Nature, 505, 87-91. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature12736
17. Reyes-Centeno, H., Ghirotto, S., Detroit, F., Grimaud-Herve, D., Barbujani, G., & Harvati, K. (2014). Genomic and Cranial Phenotype Data Support Multiple Modern Human Dispersals from Africa and a Southern Route into Asia. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 111, 7248-7253.http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1323666111
18. Sankararaman, S., Mallick, S., Dannemann, M., Prüfer, K., Kelso, J., Pääbo, S., Patterson, N., & Reich, D. (2014). The Genomic Landscape of Neanderthal Ancestry in Present-Day Humans. Nature, 507, 354-357. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature12961
19. Tamura, K., Stecher, G., Peterson, D., Filipski, A., & Kumar, S. (2013). MEGA6: Molecular Evolutionary Genetics Analysis Version 6.0. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 30, 2725-2729. http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/molbev/mst197
20. Vernot, B., & Akey, J. M. (2014). Resurrecting Surviving Neandertal Lineages from Modern Human Genomes. Science, 343, 1017-1021.http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1245938
21. Winters, C. (2010). The Kushite spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences, 2, 294-299.
22. Winters, C. (2011). Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173. International Journal of Science and Nature, 2, 743-745.
23. Winters, C. (2014). Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? Advances in Anthropology, 4, 124-132. http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.43016
24. Yang, M. A., Malaspinas, A.-S., Durand, E. Y., & Slatkin, M. (2012). Ancient Structure in Africa Unlikely to Explain Neanderthal and Non-African Genetic Similarity. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 29, 2987-2995. http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/molbev/mss117

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
Oooookkkkk!! What paper states R1b has highest diversity OUTSIDE Africa cf to IN Africa?

Busby refused to peform or at least disclose a latitudinal analyis which would help resolve this. So all we have left is the Phylotree. So we are back to Wood et al.

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http://adamsfamilydna.com/haplogroup-r1b-r1b1a2a1a1b4f-subclade-l21/
It has since been proven that R1b haplotypes displayed higher microsatellite diversity in Anatolia and in the Caucasus than in Europe.

R1b almost certainly crossed over from northern Anatolia to the Pontic-Caspian steppe. It is not clear whether this happened before, during or after the Neolithic. A regular flow of R1b across the Caucasus cannot be excluded either. The genetic diversity of R1b being greater around the Caucasus, it is hard to deny that R1b settled and evolved there before entering the steppe world.

________________________________________


Africa as compared to the Near East and Europe has the lowest diversity of Y-DNA haplogroup R and mtDNA H

again

Africa as compared to the Near East and Europe has the lowest diversity of Y-DNA haplogroup R and mtDNA H

Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:

The Pontic Steppe is a sub-clade(downstream) of African R-V88.

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Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Quiet jackass I'm not talking to you, xyyman is talking about Hgs not alleles.
His concept is that white Europeans are depigmenated Africans, not Central Asians and their ancestors lived in Africa less than 5,000 years ago so that's the "we" you are a part of.
To say that that chart is stupid means you are stupid

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LOL at Low Level Thinker.

Hg's are based on alleles. Speaking of quite a jackass.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
CLyde says:
Of course Klyosov would not have published a paper that shows he is a novice when it comes to population genetics, and the reality the first amh were Black Africans--not whites, as he claims in his numerous misleading papers.

We have discussed other papers by Klyosov on this forum , see: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=007044;p=1

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Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
LOL at the above. Low level thinking. LOL We are talking about deep clades of alleles. You come here with stupid charts. SMH

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Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
CLyde says:
Of course Klyosov would not have published a paper that shows he is a novice when it comes to population genetics, and the reality the first amh were Black Africans--not whites, as he claims in his numerous misleading papers.

We have discussed other papers by Klyosov on this forum , see: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=007044;p=1

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The link to the peer review is http://file.scirp.org/Html/2-1590439_51973.htm

The link that is dead is to Clyde Winters 2011 paper because that journal has gone out of business.

All of you are barking up the wrong tree. The peer review IS NOT BY KLYSOLOV. The view deals with Winters's misquoting sources and not presenting evidence for his claims.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This paper as I said earlier does not falsify anything. He was able to dispute the research that shows the first Europeans were not pale,he could not dispute the fact that neither Loschbour nor La Braña carries the skin-lightening allele in SLC24A5…” (Lazaridis et al., 2014), nor was he able to show that the Neanderthal were pale-skinned. Moreover, he did not cite any articles that dispute Boule & Vallois, 1957 research that the Khoisan were the first Europeans.

The rest of the article is his discussion of Africans not being the first anatomically modern humans (amh). This view is not accepted by any modern researchers.Also, I did not mention Indo-Europeans in my paper.

Given the evidence his paper is nothing more than noise, saying nothing relevant. To falsify an article you have to present abundant counter evidence. Any serious reading of this paper will show that the claims in the paper are based on personal opinion not factual and reliable research. he ask the reader to take his word that what he wrote is accurate, in reality it is baseless, and mere ramblings of a man who is living in the past, afraid to admit that the white supremacist ideas he was taught in the past about ancient history are myths.

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quote:

---

The cited paper (Winters, 2014) has avoided, unfortunately, an approval by the Editor-in-Chief, and slipped through to the Journal.

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quote:

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Here is a typical example of the author’s style and reliability of quotations. In his preceding paper, entitled “Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173” (Winters, 2011), the author writes: “The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b)… (Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data indicate the successful colonization of Asia by Sub-Saharan Africans from Nubia 5 -4 kya”. If the reader looks up at the Naidoo et al. paper, it shows that the great majority of R1b-M343 haplotypes were found among South African Whites (81 out of 157), while Khoe-san contain three R1b-M343 haplotypes out of 183. Mr. Winters did not even mention such a discrepancy, which brings a different angle at the data.
Here is another example. In the same paper (Winters, 2011) he writes on “widespread distribution of R1*- M173 in Africa, that ranges between 7% - 95% and averages 39% (Coia et al., 2005) ”. He repeats the same “quotation” in yet another paper (Winters, 2010) ―“The frequency of Y-chromosome R1*-M173 in Africa range between 7% - 95% and averages 39.5% (Coia et al., 2005)”. However, in the referenced paper Coia et al. (2005) describe the frequency of R1*-M173 only in Cameroon, “with the highest frequency in North Cameroon (from 6.7% among the Tali to 95.2% among the Uldeme”. Mr. Winters did not mention that the figures were related not to “widespread distribution in Africa”, but specifically to North Cameroon, which is known since at least 2002(Cruciani et al., 2002, 2010) . In the same manner Mr. Winters “quote” data by Berniell-Lee et al. (2009), who had reported that 5.2% of R1b1* were identified in Cameroon and neighboring Gabon, and “quote” it as follows “Haplogroup R1b1* is found in Africa…Berniell-Lee et al. (2005) found in their study that 5.2% carried Rb1*” (spelling by Winters, 2011). As one sees again, Cameroon and Gabon were not mentioned, only “found in Africa 5.2%…”.
Here is yet another example. According to Winters (2011) , “The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy populations ranged from 1% - 25% (Berniell-Lee et al., 2009) ”. In fact, Figure 1 in the Berniell-Lee et al. paper shows only two individuals having R1b1*, one from Baka tribe (out of 33 tested) in Gabon, and one from Bakola tribe (out of 22 tested) in Cameroon. So much for 1% - 25%. The list of misquotations can go on. That was a basis for the “African origin of R1-M173”.

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Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
CLyde says:
Of course Klyosov would not have published a paper that shows he is a novice when it comes to population genetics, and the reality the first amh were Black Africans--not whites, as he claims in his numerous misleading papers.

We have discussed other papers by Klyosov on this forum , see: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=007044;p=1

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The link to the peer review is http://file.scirp.org/Html/2-1590439_51973.htm

The link that is dead is to Clyde Winters 2011 paper because that journal has gone out of business.

All of you are barking up the wrong tree. The peer review IS NOT BY KLYSOLOV. The view deals with Winters's misquoting sources and not presenting evidence for his claims.

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LOL. You are very confused. The paper was written by Klysolov. hahahaha

.

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Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
CLyde says:
Of course Klyosov would not have published a paper that shows he is a novice when it comes to population genetics, and the reality the first amh were Black Africans--not whites, as he claims in his numerous misleading papers.

We have discussed other papers by Klyosov on this forum , see: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=007044;p=1

---

The link to the peer review is http://file.scirp.org/Html/2-1590439_51973.htm

The link that is dead is to Clyde Winters 2011 paper because that journal has gone out of business.

All of you are barking up the wrong tree. The peer review IS NOT BY KLYSOLOV. The view deals with Winters's misquoting sources and not presenting evidence for his claims.

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LOL. You are very confused. The paper was written by Klysolov. hahahaha

.

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More attempts to distract attention from the fact that you misquote papers all the time and you got caught in something that got published and will remain and not disappear as blogs and websites often do.

Exactly how do you know, other than some conspiracy theory, that Klysonov wrote the review? and how does that alter the fact that you misquoted?

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This paper as I said earlier does not falsify anything. He was able to dispute the research that shows the first Europeans were not pale,he could not dispute the fact that neither Loschbour nor La Braña carries the skin-lightening allele in SLC24A5…” (Lazaridis et al., 2014), nor was he able to show that the Neanderthal were pale-skinned. Moreover, he did not cite any articles that dispute Boule & Vallois, 1957 research that the Khoisan were the first Europeans.

The rest of the article is his discussion of Africans not being the first anatomically modern humans (amh). This view is not accepted by any modern researchers.Also, I did not mention Indo-Europeans in my paper.

Given the evidence his paper is nothing more than noise, saying nothing relevant. To falsify an article you have to present abundant counter evidence. Any serious reading of this paper will show that the claims in the paper are based on personal opinion not factual and reliable research. he ask the reader to take his word that what he wrote is accurate, in reality it is baseless, and mere ramblings of a man who is living in the past, afraid to admit that the white supremacist ideas he was taught in the past about ancient history are myths.

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Predictably, you have flooded the discussion group with irrelevant threads of spam (Dravidians, the plot of INdutvas, etc.) as a diversion from answering the real criticism in the peer review of your article

1) The reviewer is NOT Klysonov. You don't know anything about the reviewer so your ad hominems about him or her are wastes space.

2) In order to falsify something the first requirement is that there BE something to falsify. It is YOUR job to put together evidence to justify your claim. What the reviewer is pointing out is that you have not presented anything to falsify because your "data" consists of misquoting papers.

3) Apparently you know nothing about peer review. The job is NOT to "disprove the paper being reviewed. It is to see if the paper presents sufficient evidence supporting the claims, whether the results are something new, whether it is appropriate for the journal in question, whether it is important enough to be published, whether the documentation, footnoting, and coverage of the literature is sufficient. What the reviewer is pointing out is that to quote the review

quote:

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The cited paper (Winters, 2014) has avoided, unfortunately, an approval by the Editor-in-Chief, and slipped through to the Journal.

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i.e. that if this paper had had a peer review before publication, as is the usual case, it would not have been published at all.

4) Here there and everywhere you have claimed that R-M173 is "widespread in Africa" but this is not true and you have not presented evidence that it is. You have cited papers about a narrow area of Africa that has R-V88 and pretended that these papers supported your claim of a wide distribution. From the review:

quote:

---

Here is a typical example of the author’s style and reliability of quotations. In his preceding paper, entitled “Possible African origin of Y-chromosome R1-M173” (Winters, 2011), the author writes: “The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b)… (Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data indicate the successful colonization of Asia by Sub-Saharan Africans from Nubia 5 -4 kya”. If the reader looks up at the Naidoo et al. paper, it shows that the great majority of R1b-M343 haplotypes were found among South African Whites (81 out of 157), while Khoe-san contain three R1b-M343 haplotypes out of 183. Mr. Winters did not even mention such a discrepancy, which brings a different angle at the data.
Here is another example. In the same paper (Winters, 2011) he writes on “widespread distribution of R1*- M173 in Africa, that ranges between 7% - 95% and averages 39% (Coia et al., 2005) ”. He repeats the same “quotation” in yet another paper (Winters, 2010) ―“The frequency of Y-chromosome R1*-M173 in Africa range between 7% - 95% and averages 39.5% (Coia et al., 2005)”. However, in the referenced paper Coia et al. (2005) describe the frequency of R1*-M173 only in Cameroon, “with the highest frequency in North Cameroon (from 6.7% among the Tali to 95.2% among the Uldeme”. Mr. Winters did not mention that the figures were related not to “widespread distribution in Africa”, but specifically to North Cameroon, which is known since at least 2002(Cruciani et al., 2002, 2010) . In the same manner Mr. Winters “quote” data by Berniell-Lee et al. (2009), who had reported that 5.2% of R1b1* were identified in Cameroon and neighboring Gabon, and “quote” it as follows “Haplogroup R1b1* is found in Africa…Berniell-Lee et al. (2005) found in their study that 5.2% carried Rb1*” (spelling by Winters, 2011). As one sees again, Cameroon and Gabon were not mentioned, only “found in Africa 5.2%…”.
Here is yet another example. According to Winters (2011) , “The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy populations ranged from 1% - 25% (Berniell-Lee et al., 2009) ”. In fact, Figure 1 in the Berniell-Lee et al. paper shows only two individuals having R1b1*, one from Baka tribe (out of 33 tested) in Gabon, and one from Bakola tribe (out of 22 tested) in Cameroon. So much for 1% - 25%. The list of misquotations can go on. That was a basis for the “African origin of R1-M173”.

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Why don't you deal with this rather than floods of spam?

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Y-chromosome R1 is found throghout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010). The age of ychromosome
R is 27ky. Most researchers believe that
R(M173) is 18.5 ky.There is a great diversity of the
macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome
R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45
mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et
al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The
most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The
predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009).
Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations
including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88. Geography appears
to play a significant role in the distribution of haplogroup
R in Africa. Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency
among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among
Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people)
range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee
et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18,
V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is
also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive
mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup
R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. BerniellLee
et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried
Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged
from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy
populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009).
The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations
was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).

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quote:

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Around 0.1 of Sub Saharan Africans carry R1b1b2. Wood
et al (2009) found that Khoisan (2.2%) and Niger-Congo
(0.4%) speakers carried the R-M269 y-chromosome.
The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b) and M 198 (R1a1)
(Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data
indicate the successful colonization of Asia by SubSaharan
Africans from Nubia 5-4kya (Winters, 2007,2008,
2010c). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that
around 4kya intercultural style artifacts connected Africa
and Eurasia (Winters, 2007,2010c).

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As a result, I did not attempt to decieve anyone about the frequency of R1 in Africa as the author implies.

In fact recent research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.



Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Exactly how do you know, other than some conspiracy theory, that Klysonov wrote the review? and how does that alter the fact that you misquoted?

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LOL. I know he is the person who wrote the piece because he is listed as the author.hahaha

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Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
LOL at the above. Low level thinking. LOL We are talking about deep clades of alleles. You come here with stupid charts. SMH

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show me this "we", people talking about alleles in this thread, show me the quote fool

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‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups.


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].

In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome.

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)

Do you understand the above?


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=010625;p=1#000001

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[QB] Klyosov in criticizing my article exagerates what I wrote. He implies that I was trying to decieve the readers about the frequency of R1 in Africa. This is false.

I specifically stated the frequency of R1 among African populations throughout my 2011 paper.
[QUOTE]

Y-chromosome R1 is found throughout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010).

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quote:

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Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese:Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History
Hisham Y. Hassan 2008

Haplogroup R-M173 appears to be the most frequent haplogroup in Fulani,

The Fulani, who possess the lowest population size inthis study, have an interesting genetic structure, effectively consisting of two haplogroups or founding line-ages. One of the lineages is R-M173 (53.8%), and its sheer frequency suggests either a recent migration of this group to Africa and/or a restricted gene flow due to linguistic or cultural barriers. The high frequency of sub-clade E-V22, which is believed to be northeast African (Cruciani et al., 2007) and haplogroup R-M173, suggests an amalgamation of two populations/cultures that took place sometime in the past in eastern or central Africa.This is also evident from the frequency of the ‘‘T’’ allele of the lactase persistence gene that is uniquely present in considerable frequencies among the Fulani (Mulcareet al., 2004). Interestingly, Fulani language is classified in the Niger-Congo family of languages, which is more prevalent in West Africa and among Bantu speakers, yet their Y-chromosomes show very little evidence of West African genetic affiliation.

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Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


my 2011 paper.

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Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).

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M173 (R P-25) renamed V88 as per alleles specific to Africa.

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The phylogeographic profile of R1*-M173 supports this ancient migration of Kushites from Africa to Eurasia as suggested by the Classical writers. This expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

--Clyde Winters
The Kushite Spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia

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Clyde, on what continent did Haplgroup R originate ?


.

Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


Clyde, on what continent did the first clade of Haplogroup R called
R-M207 originate ?

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R-M207 is the same as V45. The Dravidians came from Africa and took hg R2 into India. The presence of R-M207/V45 in Africa make it clear that R-M207 probably originated in Africa.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


R-M207 is the same as V45.

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R M207/UTY2, P224, P227, P229, P232, P280,
P285, S4, S8, S9, V45

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Corrections/Additions made since 1 January 2010:
Added the following SNPs L165, L193, L196, L226, P89.2, V7, V8, V35, V45, V69, V88 and Cruciani et al (2010) on 12 January 2010

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We resequenced about 0.15 Mb of the MSY for each of the four R1b subjects and found six new mutations (V7, V8, V35, V45, V69, and V88). The V45 mutation is phylogenetically equivalent to M173. Among the other five mutations, V88 defines a new monophyletic clade (R-V88 or R1b1a), which includes haplogroups R-M18 (R1b1a1, formerly R1b1a), R-V8 (R1b1a2), R-V35 (R1b1a3, further subdivided by the V7 mutation to R1b1a3* and R1b1a3a), and R-V69 (R1b1a4) (Figure 1).

-- Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages
Fulvio Cruciani, 2010

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Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


R-M207 is the same as V45.

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that is incorrect

ISOGG made an error or correction on this

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR10.html

quote:

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R M207/UTY2, P224, P227, P229, P232, P280,
P285, S4, S8, S9, V45

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^^^ here they show V5 as an allele of 207

However on the same page:

quote:

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Corrections/Additions made since 1 January 2010:
Added the following SNPs L165, L193, L196, L226, P89.2, V7, V8, V35, V45, V69, V88 and Cruciani et al (2010) on 12 January 2010

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^^^ added SNPs > reference Cruciani et al (2010) >>>

quote:

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We resequenced about 0.15 Mb of the MSY for each of the four R1b subjects and found six new mutations (V7, V8, V35, V45, V69, and V88). The V45 mutation is phylogenetically equivalent to M173. Among the other five mutations, V88 defines a new monophyletic clade (R-V88 or R1b1a), which includes haplogroups R-M18 (R1b1a1, formerly R1b1a), R-V8 (R1b1a2), R-V35 (R1b1a3, further subdivided by the V7 mutation to R1b1a3* and R1b1a3a), and R-V69 (R1b1a4) (Figure 1).

-- Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages
Fulvio Cruciani, 2010

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^^^ this is the sole and primary source about V45

The chart above is for R1

However R-M207 is ancestor to R1

That's the paragroup, the R* root before R1 came into existence

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The fact remains that R-M269, is found among Sub-Saharan Africans from West, to East and Southern Africa. This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

.



.

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Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The fact remains that R-M269, is found among Sub-Saharan Africans from West, to East and Southern Africa. This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

.



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So that means the people of Wales are 92.3% African paternally
rather than Central Asian because M269 originates in Africa, correct ?

Additionally

M269

Basques, Spain 87.1

Ireland 85.4

France 80.5

England 62.0

etc, etc all over Europe, high frequencies

So Clyde, you would agree with xyyman, modern Europeans are depigmented Africans rather than Central Asians right?
Their Y DNA is primarily R and R is an African haplogroup

Don't LOL me, this is pure logic stemming directly from what you are saying

The simple fact is that if what you are claiming is true, that R1 is an African haplogroup and modern Europeans primarily carry R1 as their Y-DNA then there is no escaping the fact that they are primarily African paternally

Either that is bizarre but true

or your claim is not true, so don't try to play like I'm joking

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged |