posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


my 2011 paper.

quote:

---

Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).

---

---

M173 (R P-25) renamed V88 as per alleles specific to Africa.

quote:

---

The phylogeographic profile of R1*-M173 supports this ancient migration of Kushites from Africa to Eurasia as suggested by the Classical writers. This expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

--Clyde Winters
The Kushite Spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia

---

.


Clyde, on what continent did Haplgroup R originate ?


.

---

Hum, let's see?


‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups.


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].

In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome.

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The fact remains that R-M269, is found among Sub-Saharan Africans from West, to East and Southern Africa. This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

.



.

---

So that means the people of Wales are 92.3% African paternally
rather than Central Asian because M269 originates in Africa, correct ?

Additionally

M269

Basques, Spain 87.1

Ireland 85.4

France 80.5

England 62.0

etc, etc all over Europe, high frequencies

So Clyde, you would agree with xyyman, modern Europeans are depigmented Africans rather than Central Asians right?
Their Y DNA is primarily R and R is an African haplogroup

Don't LOL me, this is pure logic stemming directly from what you are saying

The simple fact is that if what you are claiming is true, that R1 is an African haplogroup and modern Europeans primarily carry R1 as their Y-DNA then there is no escaping the fact that they are primarily African paternally

Either that is bizarre but true

or your claim is not true, so don't try to play like I'm joking

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The fact remains that R-M269, is found among Sub-Saharan Africans from West, to East and Southern Africa and include Niger-Congo speakers, Pgymies, and Khoisan . This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

---

quote:

---

p.327 Altogether, the proportion of recent Eurasian admixture found in our sample is approximately 15% (haplogroups E1b1b1b-M81, G-M201, N1c-Tat, R1b1b2-M269 and two chromosomes belonging to E1b1b1a-M78—see criteria below), which is easily explained by the well-reported European arrivals to this territory within the last five centuries.

328 A phylogenetic network of R1b1 lineages based on 10 Y-STR
haplotypes was constructed with samples from Cameroon and
Gabon5 and from the present study (Figure 2a). A clear separation of the R1b1b2-M269 samples was observed; they clustered with the European modal haplotype, supporting their European ancestry.

---

quote:

---

A group of chromosomes of potential interest to past trans-Saharan connections is the paragroup R1b1* (R-P25*). Cruciani et al18 found this paragroup (at that time defined as haplogroup 117, or R-M173*(xSRY10831, M18, M73, M269)) to be present at high frequencies (up to 95%) in populations from northern Cameroon. The same paragroup was only rarely observed in other sub-Saharan African regions, and not observed at all in western Eurasia.18 Subsequent studies dealing with the MSY diversity in Africa have confirmed the presence of R-P25*(xM269)[BOM excluding M269) in northern Cameroon at high frequencies 23and, at lower frequencies (mean 5%, range 0–20%), of R-P25* immediately south of Cameroon, in several populations from Gabon.

---

quote:

---

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=003788 Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
• Figure 2: Distribution of R1b among African Populations
Mandekan………..…………..…100%
Mossi………….……………….100%
Rimaiba………….…………….100%
Fulbe(Burkina)…….…………..91.0%
Fulbe(Niger)…………………..85.7%
Fulbe(Nigeria)…………………80.0%
Fulbe(Cameroon)……..………88.9%
Bamileke……………………….100%
Ewondo………………………….96.7
Biaka (Pygmies)………………..100%
Mbuti(Pygmies)……..………...100%
Twa(Pygmies)………………….100%

This figure is based on Cruciani et al (2010).


Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on 20 February, 2011 12:15 AM:

Why won't you understand that Y(xR1b)* means every haplogroup except R1b?

This is basic population genetics terminology:
Y = the entire set of MSY chromosome haplogroups
x = except
R1b = R1b including its downstream subclades.

All the other columns in Table 1 are telling you the percise R1b of the subjects.

For example row 1 is of 55 sampled Moroccan Arabs where 1.8% have R1b1b2
but no other R1b haplogroups while the remaing 98.2% have haplogroups that
are neither R1b nor any of its subclades at all. There's nothing to debate here.

I know what table the data comes from as seen by the haplogroups and their
frequencies provided in my earlier post. Check the figures yourself, you'll see.
%%%%%%
[
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on 20 February, 2011 01:33 AM:
quote:

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Why won't you understand that Y(xR1b)* means every haplogroup except R1b?

This is basic population genetics terminology:
Y = the entire set of MSY chromosome haplogroups
x = except
R1b = R1b including its downstream subclades.

All the other columns in Table 1 are telling you the percise R1b of the subjects.

For example row 1 is of 55 sampled Moroccan Arabs where 1.8% have R1b1b2
but no other R1b haplogroups while the remaing 98.2% have haplogroups that
are neither R1b nor any of its subclades at all. There's nothing to debate here.

I know what table the data comes from as seen by the haplogroups and their
frequencies provided in my earlier post. Check the figures yourself, you'll see.

BTW Congratulations on your two peer review published articles in Curr Res J Biol Sci.
quote:

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These figures were taken from this Table
quote:

Originally posted by alTakruri:

Mandekan, Mossi, Rimaiba, Bamileke, Biaka, Mbuti, and
Twa have no R1b MSY chromosomes in the reported samples.


Fulbe(Burkina) have no R1b

Fulbe(Niger) have 14.3% R1b as R-V88*

Fulbe(Nigeria) have no R1b

Fulbe(Cameroon) have 11.1% R1b as 5.6% R-V88* plus 5.6% R-V69

Ewondo have 3.3% R1b as R-V88*


Above are the correct readings
of Table 1 in Crucuani (2010).


Outside of Africa R-V88 showed up in
2 out of 1173 Italians (0.2%), one had subclade R-V35 the other R-V7
1 out of 141 Corsicans (0.7%), he had subclade R-M18
1 out of 510 Balkans (0.2%) and
1 out of 328 Western Asians (0.3%).

5 out of 2152 amounts to 2/10ths of 1%.

I read the table wrong. I did not know that x=except. Thanks for making it clear.I would have been embarassed if I had made these statements in an article.

I will admit I am still a novice in this area. But I am still trying to project a different interpretation of the data using archaeogenetics.
Thanks again for the heads up.

---

quote:

---

According to the phylogeography of macro-haplogroup K-M9
(which contains haplogroup R1b), an ancient Asia-to-Africa back
migration has been hypothesized to explain the puzzling presence of R-P25* in sub-Saharan Africa.18 This hypothesis is strongly supported by the present data. In the revised Y chromosome phylogeny, there are 119 lineages in the macro-haplogroup K-M9 (which includes haplogroups K1-K4 and L to T).31 Of these lineages, only two have been observed in sub-Saharan Africa at appreciable frequencies: T-M7018,41,42 and R-V88 (this study). Both haplogroups have also been observed in Europe and western Asia (Refs 42,43 and this study). If the presence of R1b chromosomes in Africa was not because of a back migration, we would have to assume that all the mutations that connect M9 with V88 in the MSY phylogeny (450 mutations) originated in Africa. Under this scenario, we should assume that all the K-M9 lineages that are now found outside sub-Saharan Africa have survived extinction, whereas those which should have accumulated
in Africa are now extinct (with the exception of T-M70 and
R-V88) and this is an unlikely scenario.

---

Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Klyosov in criticizing my article exagerates what I wrote. He implies that I was trying to decieve the readers about the frequency of R1 in Africa. This is false.

I specifically stated the frequency of R1 among African populations throughout my 2011 paper.

quote:

---

Y-chromosome R1 is found throghout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010). The age of ychromosome
R is 27ky. Most researchers believe that
R(M173) is 18.5 ky.There is a great diversity of the
macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome
R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45
mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et
al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The
most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The
predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009).
Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations
including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88. Geography appears
to play a significant role in the distribution of haplogroup
R in Africa. Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency
among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among
Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people)
range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee
et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18,
V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is
also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive
mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup
R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. BerniellLee
et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried
Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged
from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy
populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009).
The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations
was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).

---

As you can see I did admit that only 5.2% of the pygmy carried R1.

In relation to R-M269 in Africa I wrote:

quote:

---

Around 0.1 of Sub Saharan Africans carry R1b1b2. Wood
et al (2009) found that Khoisan (2.2%) and Niger-Congo
(0.4%) speakers carried the R-M269 y-chromosome.
The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b) and M 198 (R1a1)
(Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data
indicate the successful colonization of Asia by SubSaharan
Africans from Nubia 5-4kya (Winters, 2007,2008,
2010c). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that
around 4kya intercultural style artifacts connected Africa
and Eurasia (Winters, 2007,2010c).

---

As a result, I did not attempt to decieve anyone about the frequency of R1 in Africa as the author implies.

In fact recent research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.



Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.

---

Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
, I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa. Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).

---

Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

However your information is obsolete due to recent analysis of Siberian DNA

Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia, dating to 24,000 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

---

quote:

---

"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

In a later post I show that you are misinterpreting/misquoting these sources. R-M269 is NOT African but European and the only place with significant R1 is Cameroon where the haplotype is R-V88.

---

quote:

---

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573200/

The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88
Miguel González,1




Altogether, the proportion of recent Eurasian admixture found in our sample is approximately 15% (haplogroups E1b1b1b-M81, G-M201, N1c-Tat, R1b1b2-M269 and two chromosomes belonging to E1b1b1a-M78—see criteria below), which is easily explained by the well-reported European arrivals to this territory within the last five centuries.

A phylogenetic network of R1b1 lineages based on 10 Y-STR haplotypes was constructed with samples from Cameroon and Gabon5 and from the present study (Figure 2a). A clear separation of the R1b1b2-M269 samples was observed; they
clustered with the European modal haplotype, supporting their European ancestry. The non-consensus alleles observed in both studies do not show a well-defined separation from the samples with consensus alleles. However, a cluster containing haplotypes with both consensus and non-consensus alleles (representing two different lineages) and another exclusively with consensus alleles could be indicative of at least three different lineages within the R1b1-P25( × M269) haplogroup. Nonetheless, it is important to note that the data from Berniell-Lee et al5 were published before the recently discovered mutations within P25.7 Cruciani et al7 did not find any intermediate variant alleles at the locus DYS385, which were all found within haplogroup R1b1a-V88 in the present work (with only two chromosomes presenting consensus alleles). This result may indicate the presence of different sub-lineages within this haplogroup that are yet to be discovered.

---

Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

However your information is obsolete due to recent analysis of Siberian DNA

Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia, dating to 24,000 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

---

Lol- this kind of bigotry is getting hilarious.

---

quote:

---

Y-DNA haplogroup R-M207 is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2.
R1-M173 is estimated to have arisen during the height of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), about 18,500 years ago, most likely in southwestern Asia. The two most common descendant clades of R1 are R1a and R1b.
R1a-M420 is believed to have arisen on the Eurasian Steppe or the Indus Valley, and today is most frequently observed in eastern Europe and in western and central Asia. R1a1a1g-M458 is found at frequencies approaching or exceeding 30% in Eastern Europe.
R1b-M343 is believed to have arisen in southwest Asia and today its sublcades are bound in various distributions across Eurasia and Africa.
Paragroup R1b1* and R1b1c-V88 are found most frequently in SW Asia and Africa. The African examples are almost entirely within R1b1c and are associated with the spread of Chadic languages.
R1b1a-P297 is found throughout Eurasia. R1b1a1-M73 is observed most frequently in Asia, with low frequency of observation in Europe. R1b1a2-M269 is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia.
R1b1a2-M269 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or AMH, is the most common STR haplotype in R1b1a2a1a-L11/PF6539/S127 and most European R1b1a2 belongs to R1b1a2a1a1-M405/S21/U106 or R1b1a2a1a2-P312/PF6547/S116.
R2-M479 is most often observed in Asia, especially on the Indian sub-continent and in central Asia.

---

Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde's chart

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

In a later post I show that you are misinterpreting/misquoting these sources. R-M269 is NOT African but European and the only place with significant R1 is Cameroon where the haplotype is R-V88.

---

You would have to look at each reference that Cloyed has cited already if you haven't done it already.

On the top line
Berniel Lee 2009

it says Africa 5.2%

Yet in Europe it's about 55%

Clyde's theory fails right there
Additionally there is a much greater diversity of R outside of Africa

I said to Cloyed this would mean modern Europeans are paternally African

But Cloyed went silent on that one. That silence is a fail
He has no answer for it

______________________

Now let's look high percentage of M269 he refers to
in the 2012 Gonzalez article, 53%

I'm not sure where he got the percentage from (Clyde where in the paper or Supplement is that 53% you made it up?)
Equatorial Guinea? the place is tiny
Hap R is very very sparse in Africa
An exceptional region is particular groups in Cameroon Chad who carry V88

Below the quotes pertaining to M269

quote:

---

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573200/

The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88
Miguel González,1




Altogether, the proportion of recent Eurasian admixture found in our sample is approximately 15% (haplogroups E1b1b1b-M81, G-M201, N1c-Tat, R1b1b2-M269 and two chromosomes belonging to E1b1b1a-M78—see criteria below), which is easily explained by the well-reported European arrivals to this territory within the last five centuries.

A phylogenetic network of R1b1 lineages based on 10 Y-STR haplotypes was constructed with samples from Cameroon and Gabon5 and from the present study (Figure 2a). A clear separation of the R1b1b2-M269 samples was observed; they
clustered with the European modal haplotype, supporting their European ancestry. The non-consensus alleles observed in both studies do not show a well-defined separation from the samples with consensus alleles. However, a cluster containing haplotypes with both consensus and non-consensus alleles (representing two different lineages) and another exclusively with consensus alleles could be indicative of at least three different lineages within the R1b1-P25( × M269) haplogroup. Nonetheless, it is important to note that the data from Berniell-Lee et al5 were published before the recently discovered mutations within P25.7 Cruciani et al7 did not find any intermediate variant alleles at the locus DYS385, which were all found within haplogroup R1b1a-V88 in the present work (with only two chromosomes presenting consensus alleles). This result may indicate the presence of different sub-lineages within this haplogroup that are yet to be discovered.

---

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

It is bigotry because the Mal'ta boy was Black like the other Europeans in his day who lived at Pestera cu Oase; and you are trying to imply that he was Caucasian .

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

However your information is obsolete due to recent analysis of Siberian DNA

Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia, dating to 24,000 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

---

Lol- this kind of bigotry is getting hilarious.

---

You must have a new definition of bigotry because Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia,
Why woud such a fact be bigotry?


http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html


ISOGG

quote:

---

Y-DNA haplogroup R-M207 is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2.
R1-M173 is estimated to have arisen during the height of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), about 18,500 years ago, most likely in southwestern Asia. The two most common descendant clades of R1 are R1a and R1b.
R1a-M420 is believed to have arisen on the Eurasian Steppe or the Indus Valley, and today is most frequently observed in eastern Europe and in western and central Asia. R1a1a1g-M458 is found at frequencies approaching or exceeding 30% in Eastern Europe.
R1b-M343 is believed to have arisen in southwest Asia and today its sublcades are bound in various distributions across Eurasia and Africa.
Paragroup R1b1* and R1b1c-V88 are found most frequently in SW Asia and Africa. The African examples are almost entirely within R1b1c and are associated with the spread of Chadic languages.
R1b1a-P297 is found throughout Eurasia. R1b1a1-M73 is observed most frequently in Asia, with low frequency of observation in Europe. R1b1a2-M269 is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia.
R1b1a2-M269 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or AMH, is the most common STR haplotype in R1b1a2a1a-L11/PF6539/S127 and most European R1b1a2 belongs to R1b1a2a1a1-M405/S21/U106 or R1b1a2a1a2-P312/PF6547/S116.
R2-M479 is most often observed in Asia, especially on the Indian sub-continent and in central Asia.

---

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Klyosov in criticizing my article exagerates what I wrote. He implies that I was trying to decieve the readers about the frequency of R1 in Africa. This is false.

I specifically stated the frequency of R1 among African populations throughout my 2011 paper.

quote:

---

Y-chromosome R1 is found throghout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010). The age of ychromosome
R is 27ky. Most researchers believe that
R(M173) is 18.5 ky.There is a great diversity of the
macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome
R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45
mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et
al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The
most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The
predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009).
Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations
including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88. Geography appears
to play a significant role in the distribution of haplogroup
R in Africa. Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency
among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among
Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people)
range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee
et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18,
V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is
also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive
mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup
R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. BerniellLee
et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried
Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged
from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy
populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009).
The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations
was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).

---

As you can see I did admit that only 5.2% of the pygmy carried R1.

In relation to R-M269 in Africa I wrote:

quote:

---

Around 0.1 of Sub Saharan Africans carry R1b1b2. Wood
et al (2009) found that Khoisan (2.2%) and Niger-Congo
(0.4%) speakers carried the R-M269 y-chromosome.
The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b) and M 198 (R1a1)
(Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data
indicate the successful colonization of Asia by SubSaharan
Africans from Nubia 5-4kya (Winters, 2007,2008,
2010c). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that
around 4kya intercultural style artifacts connected Africa
and Eurasia (Winters, 2007,2010c).

---

As a result, I did not attempt to decieve anyone about the frequency of R1 in Africa as the author implies.

In fact recent research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.



Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.

---

In a later post I show that you are misinterpreting/misquoting these sources. R-M269 is NOT African but European and the only place with significant R1 is Cameroon where the haplotype is R-V88.

---

LOL. How can I be misquoting Gonzalez et al (2012), the figure is above and you can count the number of M269 subjects found in the study yourself.

.


.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
]However your information is obsolete due to recent analysis of Siberian DNA

Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia, dating to 24,000 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
It is bigotry because the Mal'ta boy was Black like the other Europeans in his day who lived at Pestera cu Oase; and you are trying to imply that he was Caucasian .

M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:




Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269,LOL. How can I be misquoting Gonzalez et al (2012), the figure is above and you can count the number of M269 subjects found in the study yourself.

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

quote:

---

The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88
Miguel González,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573200/#sup1


Characterisation of the male lineages of Equatorial Guinea

In the 112 samples analysed, we were able to identify 104 different haplotypes and 13 different haplogroups (Figure 1 and Supplementary Table S2). The majority of the Y-
SNP lineages found in this study (almost 80%) belong to haplogroup E, namely bearing the M2-derived allele, the most common haplogroup in sub-Saharan Africa Bantu populations. Apart from this haplogroup and five other chromosomes, all the remaining samples belong to haplogroup R, namely R1b1-P25, a lineage that is rare in Africa and is found mainly in Europe and Asia.

---

Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Abstract

The Soqotra archipelago is one of the most isolated landmasses in the world, situated at the mouth of the Gulf of Aden between the Horn of Africa and southern Arabia. The main island of Soqotra lies not far from the proposed southern migration route of anatomically modern humans out of Africa approximately 60,000 years ago (kya), suggesting the island may harbor traces of that first dispersal. Nothing is known about the timing and origin of the first Soqotri settlers. The oldest historical visitors to the island in the 15th century reported only the presence of an ancient population. We collected samples throughout the island and analyzed mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal variation. We found little African influence among the indigenous people of the island. Although the island population likely experienced founder effects, links to the Arabian Peninsula or southwestern Asia can still be found. In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups. Specifically, we identified two high-frequency founder lineages that have not been detected in any other populations and classified them as a new R0a1a1 subclade. Recent expansion of the novel lineages is consistent with a Holocene settlement of the island approximately 6 kya.

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

However your information is obsolete due to recent analysis of Siberian DNA

Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia, dating to 24,000 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

---

Lol- this kind of bigotry is getting hilarious.

---

You must have a new definition of bigotry because Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia,
Why woud such a fact be bigotry?


http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html


ISOGG

quote:

---

Y-DNA haplogroup R-M207 is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2.
R1-M173 is estimated to have arisen during the height of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), about 18,500 years ago, most likely in southwestern Asia. The two most common descendant clades of R1 are R1a and R1b.
R1a-M420 is believed to have arisen on the Eurasian Steppe or the Indus Valley, and today is most frequently observed in eastern Europe and in western and central Asia. R1a1a1g-M458 is found at frequencies approaching or exceeding 30% in Eastern Europe.
R1b-M343 is believed to have arisen in southwest Asia and today its sublcades are bound in various distributions across Eurasia and Africa.
Paragroup R1b1* and R1b1c-V88 are found most frequently in SW Asia and Africa. The African examples are almost entirely within R1b1c and are associated with the spread of Chadic languages.
R1b1a-P297 is found throughout Eurasia. R1b1a1-M73 is observed most frequently in Asia, with low frequency of observation in Europe. R1b1a2-M269 is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia.
R1b1a2-M269 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or AMH, is the most common STR haplotype in R1b1a2a1a-L11/PF6539/S127 and most European R1b1a2 belongs to R1b1a2a1a1-M405/S21/U106 or R1b1a2a1a2-P312/PF6547/S116.
R2-M479 is most often observed in Asia, especially on the Indian sub-continent and in central Asia.

---

---

Really?






Y-DNA haplogroup R-M207 is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2.

quote:

---

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups.


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].

In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome.

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/figure/pone-0049170-g001/

Figure S1

Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18∶800–807).

(TIF)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/bin/pone.0049170.s001.tif

---

quote:

---

"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."

---

Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations

--Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild - 2007


From where does the Mal'ta come, did it fell from the sky, onto Siberia near Lake Baikal? That is what Clyde is refering at.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
]However your information is obsolete due to recent analysis of Siberian DNA

Haplogroup R* was found in the remains of a Palaeolithic boy MA-1 (Mal'ta) near Lake Baikal in Siberia, dating to 24,000 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
It is bigotry because the Mal'ta boy was Black like the other Europeans in his day who lived at Pestera cu Oase; and you are trying to imply that he was Caucasian .

M207, like the rest of the R macrohaplogroup originated in Africa.

---

Nobody said anything about Black or Caucasian. Stop being paranoid and making false allegations.
I just put up the ISOGG stating that R originates in Asia far prior to V88 or M269

Siberia is a lot farther away from Africa than Europe is from Africa
and Siberia is on the same landamss as Europe while Africa isn't.

So now we can agree that R originates in North East Asia 24kya rather than Africa and you were wrong. Can we go home now?

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:




Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269,LOL. How can I be misquoting Gonzalez et al (2012), the figure is above and you can count the number of M269 subjects found in the study yourself.

.

---

Here's how you misquoted

above you are saying

"10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269"

Then you turned this into a frequency chart, your own below

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

^^^ that is not the same as saying the people ofthe tiny country Equatorial Guinea (population 760,000 )
have frequency averages of 53%

That is not frequency - that is the proportion who were M269 carriers
-but does not indicate how much M269 was present for each individuals Y DNA profile
That is why they don't list or talk about percentage on those figures

quote:

---

The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88
Miguel González,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573200/#sup1


Characterisation of the male lineages of Equatorial Guinea

In the 112 samples analysed, we were able to identify 104 different haplotypes and 13 different haplogroups (Figure 1 and Supplementary Table S2). The majority of the Y-
SNP lineages found in this study (almost 80%) belong to haplogroup E, namely bearing the M2-derived allele, the most common haplogroup in sub-Saharan Africa Bantu populations. Apart from this haplogroup and five other chromosomes, all the remaining samples belong to haplogroup R, namely R1b1-P25, a lineage that is rare in Africa and is found mainly in Europe and Asia.

---

M269 is exremely sparse in Africa

CLYDE THEY IDENTIFIED 13 DIFFERENT HAPLOGROUPS M269 IS JUST ONE OF THEM and they did not compile the different frequencies of each haplogroup for each individual nor as a whole, merely that they carried SOME percentage of these 13 Haplogroups

---

I did not say 53% of the entire population of the country was M269, and you know that.I was only talking about the people who carry haplogroup R1.

You try to act Stupid to misdirect people and confuse this issue. Researchers look at a subset of a given population and make inferences about that population. Population sampling is the process of taking a subset of subjects that is representative of the entire population.



This is what I did when I looked at the statistic relating to V88 and M269 provided by Gonzalez et al (2012). Stop trying to deny the history of Black and African people.
.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

quote:

---

Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages
Biernell-Lee et al 2009

On the whole, most of the samples belonged to previously described African lineages especially common in sub-Saharan Africa. Specifically, most of these lineages have been associated either with Bantu-speaking people—E1b1a (E3a according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), B2a, and E2—or to Pygmy populations (haplogroup B2b). We also observed traces of haplogroups A, E*, E1a, and E1b1b1a (E3b1 according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), which are found at low frequencies across the African continent (Underhill et al. 2000, 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; Wood et al. 2005). Interestingly, almost 5% of the individuals here analyzed belonged to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*.

Haplogroup E1b1a, previously proposed as being a marker of the Bantu expansion (Passarino et al. 1998; Scozzari et al. 1999; Underhill et al. 2001; Wood et al. 2005), was the most frequent haplogroup in our sample set (76%), reaching a frequency of almost 80% in agriculturalists and 28% in Pygmy samples (fig. 1).

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/7/1581/F1.large.jpg

---

As we see here Biernell-Lee reports 0% M269 in the right column of the chart. Insiead R1b1* aka R-P25
And note the numbers are not frequencies. They are just the number of individuals in each group that carried the haplogroup

For instance look again at the quote on E1b1>

E1b1a, previously proposed as being a marker of the Bantu expansion , was the most frequent haplogroup in our sample set (76%), reaching a frequency of almost 80% in agriculturalists and 28% in Pygmy samples

^^^ 76% of the individuals carried E1b1a
But how much on average did those that carried E1b1a ?
Was it 2% or 92%
In this case 80%
That is the frequency, a separate issue as stated

Now let's look at Cruciani 2010 as regards M269 in Africa
Here the figures ARE frequency >





on the far right, haplogroup M269
highest frequency perceatage 2.4% Semitic Egyptians from Baharia
by contrast at the bottom of the chart Western Europeans 57.8%
Perhaps Clyde has R-V69 confused with R-M269 (?)

Clyde Winters is misinterpreting information and making his own charts based on it

Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Quiet jackass I'm not talking to you, xyyman is talking about Hgs not alleles.
His concept is that white Europeans are depigmenated Africans, not Central Asians and their ancestors lived in Africa less than 5,000 years ago so that's the "we" you are a part of.
To say that that chart is stupid means you are stupid

---

LOL at Low Level Thinker.

Hg's are based on alleles. Speaking of quite a jackass.

---

Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

this chart made by Clyde is incorrect

example, Biernell-Lee's 2009 paper >>

quote:

---

Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages
Biernell-Lee et al 2009

On the whole, most of the samples belonged to previously described African lineages especially common in sub-Saharan Africa. Specifically, most of these lineages have been associated either with Bantu-speaking people—E1b1a (E3a according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), B2a, and E2—or to Pygmy populations (haplogroup B2b). We also observed traces of haplogroups A, E*, E1a, and E1b1b1a (E3b1 according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), which are found at low frequencies across the African continent (Underhill et al. 2000, 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; Wood et al. 2005). Interestingly, almost 5% of the individuals here analyzed belonged to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*.

Haplogroup E1b1a, previously proposed as being a marker of the Bantu expansion (Passarino et al. 1998; Scozzari et al. 1999; Underhill et al. 2001; Wood et al. 2005), was the most frequent haplogroup in our sample set (76%), reaching a frequency of almost 80% in agriculturalists and 28% in Pygmy samples (fig. 1).

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/7/1581/F1.large.jpg

---

As we see here Biernell-Lee reports 0% M269 in the right column of the chart. Insiead R1b1* aka R-P25
And note the numbers are not frequencies. They are just the number of individuals in each group that carried the haplogroup

For instance look again at the quote on E1b1>

E1b1a, previously proposed as being a marker of the Bantu expansion , was the most frequent haplogroup in our sample set (76%), reaching a frequency of almost 80% in agriculturalists and 28% in Pygmy samples

^^^ 76% of the individuals carried E1b1a
But how much on average did those that carried E1b1a ?
Was it 2% or 92%
In this case 80%
That is the frequency, a separate issue as stated

Now let's look at Cruciani 2010 as regards M269 in Africa
Here the figures ARE frequency >





on the far right, haplogroup M269
highest frequency perceatage 2.4% Semitic Egyptians from Baharia
by contrast at the bottom of the chart Western Europeans 57.8%
Perhaps Clyde has R-V69 confused with R-M269 (?)

Clyde Winters is misinterpreting information and making his own charts based on it

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Klyosov in criticizing my article exagerates what I wrote. He implies that I was trying to decieve the readers about the frequency of R1 in Africa. This is false.

I specifically stated the frequency of R1 among African populations throughout my 2011 paper.

quote:

---

Y-chromosome R1 is found throghout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010). The age of ychromosome
R is 27ky. Most researchers believe that
R(M173) is 18.5 ky.There is a great diversity of the
macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome
R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45
mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et
al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The
most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The
predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009).
Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations
including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88. Geography appears
to play a significant role in the distribution of haplogroup
R in Africa. Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency
among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among
Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people)
range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee
et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18,
V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is
also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive
mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup
R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. BerniellLee
et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried
Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged
from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy
populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009).
The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations
was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).

---

As you can see I did admit that only 5.2% of the pygmy carried R1.

In relation to R-M269 in Africa I wrote:

quote:

---

Around 0.1 of Sub Saharan Africans carry R1b1b2. Wood
et al (2009) found that Khoisan (2.2%) and Niger-Congo
(0.4%) speakers carried the R-M269 y-chromosome.
The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b) and M 198 (R1a1)
(Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data
indicate the successful colonization of Asia by SubSaharan
Africans from Nubia 5-4kya (Winters, 2007,2008,
2010c). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that
around 4kya intercultural style artifacts connected Africa
and Eurasia (Winters, 2007,2010c).

---

As a result, I did not attempt to decieve anyone about the frequency of R1 in Africa as the author implies.

In fact recent research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.



Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.

---

In a later post I show that you are misinterpreting/misquoting these sources. R-M269 is NOT African but European and the only place with significant R1 is Cameroon where the haplotype is R-V88.

---

LOL. How can I be misquoting Gonzalez et al (2012), the figure is above and you can count the number of M269 subjects found in the study yourself.

.


.

---

Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Klyosov in criticizing my article exagerates what I wrote. He implies that I was trying to decieve the readers about the frequency of R1 in Africa. This is false.

I specifically stated the frequency of R1 among African populations throughout my 2011 paper.

quote:

---

Y-chromosome R1 is found throghout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010). The age of ychromosome
R is 27ky. Most researchers believe that
R(M173) is 18.5 ky.There is a great diversity of the
macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome
R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45
mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et
al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The
most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The
predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009).
Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations
including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88. Geography appears
to play a significant role in the distribution of haplogroup
R in Africa. Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency
among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among
Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people)
range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee
et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18,
V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is
also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive
mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup
R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. BerniellLee
et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried
Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged
from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy
populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009).
The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations
was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).

---

As you can see I did admit that only 5.2% of the pygmy carried R1.

In relation to R-M269 in Africa I wrote:

quote:

---

Around 0.1 of Sub Saharan Africans carry R1b1b2. Wood
et al (2009) found that Khoisan (2.2%) and Niger-Congo
(0.4%) speakers carried the R-M269 y-chromosome.
The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b) and M 198 (R1a1)
(Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data
indicate the successful colonization of Asia by SubSaharan
Africans from Nubia 5-4kya (Winters, 2007,2008,
2010c). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that
around 4kya intercultural style artifacts connected Africa
and Eurasia (Winters, 2007,2010c).

---

As a result, I did not attempt to decieve anyone about the frequency of R1 in Africa as the author implies.

In fact recent research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.



Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.

---

In a later post I show that you are misinterpreting/misquoting these sources. R-M269 is NOT African but European and the only place with significant R1 is Cameroon where the haplotype is R-V88.

---

LOL. How can I be misquoting Gonzalez et al (2012), the figure is above and you can count the number of M269 subjects found in the study yourself.

.


.

---

Yes, and they are NOT 53% of the haplogroups. If you look at Table 1 in the paper, p. 326, Gonzales gives you both the raw numbers and the proper percentages:

number percentage
V88 Ribia* 9 (8.04%)
M269 R1b1b2 10 (8.93)

You are still misquoting the true values given in your sources.

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[


.

---

Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


R-M207 is the same as V45.

---

that is incorrect

ISOGG made an error or correction on this

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR10.html

quote:

---

R M207/UTY2, P224, P227, P229, P232, P280,
P285, S4, S8, S9, V45

---

^^^ here they show V5 as an allele of 207

However on the same page:

quote:

---

Corrections/Additions made since 1 January 2010:
Added the following SNPs L165, L193, L196, L226, P89.2, V7, V8, V35, V45, V69, V88 and Cruciani et al (2010) on 12 January 2010

---

^^^ added SNPs > reference Cruciani et al (2010) >>>

quote:

---

We resequenced about 0.15 Mb of the MSY for each of the four R1b subjects and found six new mutations (V7, V8, V35, V45, V69, and V88). The V45 mutation is phylogenetically equivalent to M173. Among the other five mutations, V88 defines a new monophyletic clade (R-V88 or R1b1a), which includes haplogroups R-M18 (R1b1a1, formerly R1b1a), R-V8 (R1b1a2), R-V35 (R1b1a3, further subdivided by the V7 mutation to R1b1a3* and R1b1a3a), and R-V69 (R1b1a4) (Figure 1).

-- Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages
Fulvio Cruciani, 2010

---

^^^ this is the sole and primary source about V45

The chart above is for R1

However R-M207 is ancestor to R1

That's the paragroup, the R* root before R1 came into existence

---

LOL. They can change whatever they wish. I still believe it originated in Africa.

---

Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[


.

---

Yes, and they are NOT 53% of the haplogroups. If you look at Table 1 in the paper, p. 326, Gonzales gives you both the raw numbers and the proper percentages:

number percentage
V88 Ribia* 9 (8.04%)
M269 R1b1b2 10 (8.93)

You are still misquoting the true values given in your sources.

---

LOL. You're really dumb. 19 R1 subjects in study. 10 of the subjects carry M269. 10/19= 53%.

Stop trying to steal the history of African people.
. [/QB][/QUOTE]

This is how you function ,. You start from a misquoting deceptive table The title of the table refers to geographical area or african population and some of the values posted are supposed to be for whole countries or populations (Berniell-Lee "Africa".... Therefore 53% appears to be for Guinea-Bissau,- you don't say "of those in Guinea =Bissau that carry haplotype R1 53% are M269. But ,now that you are caught you retreat to this number. [/QB][/QUOTE]


Stupid racist the Table clearly says carriers of M269. Anybody with an ounce of intelligence would understand that the statistic is only referencing people who carry the R haplogroup--not everyone in Guinea-Bissau.
,

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

Yes, and they are NOT 53% of the haplogroups. If you look at Table 1 in the paper, p. 326, Gonzales gives you both the raw numbers and the proper percentages:

number percentage
V88 Ribia* 9 (8.04%)
M269 R1b1b2 10 (8.93)

You are still misquoting the true values given in your sources.

---

^^^ What he's saying is correct, the only correction is that it's Figure 1 not Table 1.

Clyde you are very clearly wrong in your above chart.

You can pursue your desire that R has it's origin in Africa but please use correct supporting information,
We have the haplogroup frequency percentages below from Gonzalez 2012 > in the right hand side of the chart
as stated

V88 Ribia* 9% (8.04%)
M269 R1b1b2 10% (8.93%)

Also of higher hapolgroup frequencies for Equatorial New Guineans are as follows

E1b1a* 37%
E1b1a7 40%

(Total E1b1a = 77% )

So you saying the frequency of M269 in Equatorial New Guineans is 53% is plain and simply wrong.
Furthermore nearly half of New Guineans according to that percentage don't even carry that Hg.
Of the ones that do, again, the frequency percentage, the average amount that these individuals carry in relation to the other Hgs they carry is about 10% NOT 53%

Clyde you have shown legitmate charts and references in your argument but please disown this above chart you made and admit it's wrong . It taints credibility of anything else you say on the topic


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?


Published online 2012 Aug 15. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2012.167
PMCID: PMC3573200
The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88
Miguel González,1

Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

The phylogeographic profile of R1*-M173 supports this ancient migration of Kushites from Africa to Eurasia as suggested by the Classical writers. This expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

--Clyde Winters
The Kushite Spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia

---

Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

The phylogeographic profile of R1*-M173 supports this ancient migration of Kushites from Africa to Eurasia as suggested by the Classical writers. This expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

--Clyde Winters
The Kushite Spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia

---

Clyde Hassan 2008 reported that Sudanese Fulani carry R-M173 (x P25) at a 54% frequency

You say an expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

But R-M173 is estimated to be 12,500–25,700 years old.

Assuming that Sudanese Fulani are descendants of the Kushites are you saying that there was no R1a outside of Africa until around 4,000 years ago?

That doesn't make sense

In Europe, the highest frequencies are found in Central and Eastern Europe. Today it is found at its highest levels in Tajiks (64%), Kyrgyz (63%), Poland and Hungary (56%–60%), Ukraine (44-54%) High haplotype diversity was detected in Poland

Among the caste groups of India high percentages of this haplogroup are found in West Bengal Brahmins(72%) to the east, Konkanastha Brahmins(48%) to the west, Khatris(67%) in north and Iyenger(31%) Brahmins of south. It has also been found in several South Indian Dravidian-speaking Adivasis including the Chenchu(26%), the Valmikis of Andhra Pradesh and the Kallar of Tamil Nadu

Absolute dating methods suggest that this marker is 10–15,000 years old, and the microsatellite diversity is greatest in southern Asia.

The modern population of South Asia has the highest level of diversity of the gene making it the likeliest location of its origin


My guess is that the Indians carried this Haplogroup to both Europe and Africa

The ancestor of this Haplogroup is R* found in 24 kya Siberia remains

R-M173 is at minimum over 12,500 years old. It has a wide range in Eurasia so it could not have first arrived a mere 4000 or so years ago

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Twenty nine ivory female figures were found on the open site of Mal'ta. They differ from contemporary representations in Russia, Central and Western Europe in that they are shown clothed rather than nude, most have faces and the body shapes are straight or tapering below large, round heads. Some are also perforated to be worn as pendants.





.

However many are Steatopygic indicating Khoisan/Grimaldi ethnicity.

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

The Caves of Europe, were seen as temples by the ancient Blacks of Europe.

.



.
The last Ice Age in Europe came suddenly. The Aurignacians carrying haplogroup R, probably sought santuary in their caves/temples.

.
Since the last Ice Age came suddenly the Blacks were trapped in the caves. In darkness.


The first Europeans were definitely Black when they entered the Caucasus Caves.The Mal'ta skeleton makes it clear these Europeans carried the R haplogroup.

In the caves due to the absence of sunlight the Aurignacians lost the melanin in their skin. The melanin left the skin and congregated in the hair.


This is evident when we look at the depigmented creatures who lived in the caves.The drawings from the Grotte de Marche shows tha various facial changes that took place among the Proto-Europeans who remained trapped in the caves until after 1400-1200 BC.

The Grotte de Marche engravings show the evolution of Blacks into europeans.

Below is a Magdalenian carving from the Grotte de La Marche from 17 000-15 000BC:

See: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_96D2zI7_w6c/Sc4YV3c6juI/AAAAAAAAIes/kxopVZ44cdA/s1600/la+marche+faces280.jpg



This 17ky cave painting appears to record the changes in the Proto-European into more 'human' like forms today. The pictures make it clear that the long chins and noses were a major feature of the Proto-Europeans.Check out information on Grotte de Marche at : http://pascal.lefalher.perso.neuf.fr/la_grotte_de_la_marche.htm

Europeans are not native to Europe except underground. Since they remained in the caves the Proto-Europeans at Grotte de Marche probably did not interact with the Blacks of Europe that did not enter the caves and become depigmented.
There was an extensive network of caves that allowed the Proto-Europeans to communicate across Eurasia.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Narmerthoth:


Stone Age Tunnels are man created a massive network of underground tunnels crisecrossing Europe from Scotland to Turkey , a new book on the Ancient superhighways has claimed. German archaeologist, said evidence of the tunnels has been found hundreds of Neolithic settlements all over the continent. Seemingly never ending series of underground tunnels are confirmed to be man-made , and the architecture boggles even the most sophisticated designers.

German archaeologist Dr Heinrich Kusch said evidence of the tunnels has been found under hundreds of Neolithic settlements all over the continent. In his book - Secrets Of The Underground Door To An Ancient World (German title: Tore zur Unterwelt) - he says that the fact so many have survived after 12,000 years shows that the original tunnel network must have been enormous.





In his book, he notes that chapels were often built by the entrances perhaps because the Church were afraid of the heathen legacy the tunnels might have represented, and wanted to negate their influence.


Not for the claustrophobic: Most of the tunnels are just 70cm wide - just wide enough for a person to slowly wriggle through

---

quote:

---

Santorini's volcanic activity during the past 2-500,000 years has been dominated by very large explosive eruptions at intervals of few tens of thousands of years. The most recent of this type occurred at around 1613 BC and is known as the so-called Minoan eruption. The late Bronze Age eruption, one of the biggest known volcanic explosions in younger time,- and one of the most studied, but still most mysterious eruptions of all time-, devastated not only Santorini, but had a deep impact on the whole of the Eastern Mediterranean. Perhaps it even had serious world-wide effects and changed history.
Still today, one can see its deposits, the characteristic, tens of meters thick layer of white pumice and ash that blankets most of the surface of the island group. The eruption changed the shape of the island itself dramatically: it is now believed that before the eruption, it had the shape of an almost complete ring that enclosed an earlier, shallower caldera. Then, large sections of island collapsed into the emptied magma chamber after the eruption, literally disappearing under the sea. The ring-island was breached to the W and NW, and the caldera was significantly widened and deepened.

The Minoan eruption devastated the rich, highly developed economic center, that Santorini was at that time. Since 1969, intense archaeological excavations have brought to light an important Cycladic/Minoan town which had been buried beneath the volcanic ash for almost 4000 years. Although it appears that people had time to evacuate their island in time before the eruption, carrying most of their goods with them, the findings from Akrotiri are impressive: especially, they include well-preserved and magnificent wall paintings, ceramics and other objects. Thanks to the work of numerous archaeologists, a new light was thrown on an important prehistoric period and culture. The spectacular discovery even induced continuing speculations that relate the volcanic destruction of Santorini to the legend of the sunken Atlantis.

See:

http://www.volcanodiscovery.com/santorini.html

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
To those who are slow…er. And needs things to be simplified. Busby is stating that R1b-269 did NOT come from the Middle East or Steppes. Yes, the Yamanya carried R1b but as the same authors clearly stated, the R1b of the Yamanya was of a different “type”. Which corroborates what Busby disclosed. Western European R1b-M269 did NOT come from the Asian Steppes.

Busby provided data as such. Unfortunately he did NOT provide an origin. He just discredited the notion of an “Eastern” source.

---

quote:

---

The Y chromosome Alu polymorphism (YAP, also called M1) defines the deep-rooted haplogroup D/E of the global Y-chromosome phylogeny [1]. This D/E haplogroup is further branched into three sub-haplogroups DE*, D and E (Figure 1). The distribution of the D/E haplogroup is highly regional, and the three subgroups are geographically restricted to certain areas, therefore informative in tracing human prehistory (Table 1). The sub-haplogroup DE*, presumably the most ancient lineage of the D/E haplogroup was only found in Africans from Nigeria [2], supporting the "Out of Africa" hypothesis about modern human origin. The sub-haplogroup E (E-M40), defined by M40/SRY4064 and M96, was also suggested originated in Africa [3-6], and later dispersed to Middle East and Europe about 20,000 years ago [3,4]. Interestingly, the sub-haplogroup D defined by M174 (D-M174) is East Asian specific with abundant appearance in Tibetan and Japanese (30–40%), but rare in most of other East Asian populations and populations from regions bordering East Asia (Central Asia, North Asia and Middle East) (usually less than 5%) [5-7]. Under D-M174, Japanese belongs to a separate sub-lineage defined by several mutations (e.g. M55, M57 and M64 etc.), which is different from those in Tibetans implicating relatively deep divergence between them [1]. The fragmented distribution of D-M174 in East Asia seems not consistent with the pattern of other East Asian specific lineages, i.e. O3-M122, O1-M119 and O2-M95 under haplogroup O [8,9].

---

quote:

---

Further refinement awaits the finding of new markers especially within paragroup E3a*-M2. The microsatellite profile of the DE* individual is one mutational step away from the allelic state described for Nigerians (DYS390*21, DYS388 not tested; [37], therefore suggesting a common ancestry but not elucidating the phylogenetics.

---

quote:

---

There has been considerable debate on the geographic origin of the human Y chromosome Alu polymor- phism (YAP). Here we report a new, very rare deep-rooting haplogroup within the YAP clade, together with data on other deep-rooting YAP clades. The new haplogroup, found so far in only five Nigerians, is the least-derived YAP haplogroup according to currently known binary markers. However, because the interior branching order of the Y chromosome genealogical tree remains unknown, it is impossible to impute the origin of the YAP clade with certainty. We discuss the problems presented by rare deep-rooting lineages for Y chromosome phylogeography.

---

quote:

---

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups.


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].

In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome.

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/figure/pone-0049170-g001/

Figure S1

Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18∶800–807).

(TIF)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/bin/pone.0049170.s001.tif

---

quote:

---

"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

The phylogeographic profile of R1*-M173 supports this ancient migration of Kushites from Africa to Eurasia as suggested by the Classical writers. This expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

--Clyde Winters
The Kushite Spread of Haplogroup R1*-M173 from Africa to Eurasia

---

Clyde Hassan 2008 reported that Sudanese Fulani carry R-M173 (x P25) at a 54% frequency

You say an expansion of Kushites into Eurasia probably took place over 4 kya.

But R-M173 is estimated to be 12,500–25,700 years old.

Assuming that Sudanese Fulani are descendants of the Kushites are you saying that there was no R1a outside of Africa until around 4,000 years ago?

That doesn't make sense

In Europe, the highest frequencies are found in Central and Eastern Europe. Today it is found at its highest levels in Tajiks (64%), Kyrgyz (63%), Poland and Hungary (56%–60%), Ukraine (44-54%) High haplotype diversity was detected in Poland

Among the caste groups of India high percentages of this haplogroup are found in West Bengal Brahmins(72%) to the east, Konkanastha Brahmins(48%) to the west, Khatris(67%) in north and Iyenger(31%) Brahmins of south. It has also been found in several South Indian Dravidian-speaking Adivasis including the Chenchu(26%), the Valmikis of Andhra Pradesh and the Kallar of Tamil Nadu

Absolute dating methods suggest that this marker is 10–15,000 years old, and the microsatellite diversity is greatest in southern Asia.

The modern population of South Asia has the highest level of diversity of the gene making it the likeliest location of its origin


My guess is that the Indians carried this Haplogroup to both Europe and Africa

The ancestor of this Haplogroup is R* found in 24 kya Siberia remains

R-M173 is at minimum over 12,500 years old. It has a wide range in Eurasia so it could not have first arrived a mere 4000 or so years ago

---

You base your argument on contemporary frequencies of R1a and R1b among Europeans. As has been shown repeatedly on this forum white Europeans did not originate in Europe, they come from Central Asia as a result the frequency of the R haplogroup among this population does not reflect the age of haplogroup R.

Granted, Khoisan probably introduced haplogroup R into Europe as early as 24kya. But Khoisan were later replaced by the Anu (Pygmies) and finally the Kushites. This means that the haplogroups carried by these later populations would have influenced the genetic landscape of Eurasia.

Since caucasians and mongoloid people do not appear in the archeological record until 2000 BC, and we see the replacement of Black populations in Europe and Central Asia after 1500 by whites (as evidenced by the People of the Sea). By this time the Great Flood had destroyed most Anu centers in Eurasia, and the Kushites had resettled many centers formerly occupied by the Anu.

As a result, Europeans carrying the R haplogroups today are the result of mating with the Kushites, who they met on their way from Central Asia into Europe. The only other way we can account for the R haplogroup among whites, is that when they exited their cave homeland in the caucasus mountains the Proto-white people were carrying the R haplogroup of their Khoisan ancestors. If this view is correct, the R haplogroup was the main haplogroup carried by whites during their sojurn in the caves .

---

quote:

---

The population of AMH spreading in the eastern direction included “softened” Mongoloid elements. The “dialectal continuum” consisting of Proto-Uralic, Proto-Altaic and Palaeo-Siberian- related languages formed the principal communication media of Early Modern Humans in northern Eurasia.

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The earliest evidence of the R haplogroup comes from Mal’ta Siberia.

---

Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

.


.

---

quote:

---

While African haplogroup R chromosomes are generally quite rare, R-P25* chromosomes are found at remarkably high frequencies in northern Cameroon (60.7–94.7%).

---

Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

.


.

---

Apart from the misleading 53% on Equatorial Guinea there are other problems with the figures you cite. The entire table is titled “African Carriers of R-M269” but in reality R-M269 is extremely rare in Africa. Instead what you are listing are amounts of R1b* (also called R-P25*, R-M343, R-V88). A part of the problem is the unsettled state of the nomenclature and the fact that over the last 10 years different papers have used different names.

For example in Berniell-Lee:

Your table says R-M269 2-20% in Bantu and in Pygmies 5%, but on
p. 1583 what is listed as present is haplotype R-P25 (R1b1*) with 14% frequency in the Bantu. However, there is zero haplotype R-M269 in either Bantu, or Pygmies

In Wood:

You say R-M269 is present in 2.2 % of the Khoisan. On p. 872 she says

quote:

---

While African haplogroup R chromosomes are generally quite rare, R-P25* chromosomes are found at remarkably high frequencies in northern Cameroon (60.7–94.7%).

---

But in Appendix A What we see is a high frequency of R-P25 (R1b1*) in Cameroon But there is ZERO R-M269.

Your cite of Hirbo at 6% R-M269 in the Khoisan is correct.

p. 199 Appendix 6a (ii) part III: Frequency of Y chromosome lineages in Africa, Mediterranean and the Near East

what is listed at a very low level are R1b*[R-V88]and R1b3 (Really R-M269)

The frequencies above 10% of R1b3 (R-M269) listed are:

Algerians (10.8), Iraquis(10.80),Turks(14.7), Greeks(17.4), Albanians(18.5), Sicilians(24.7), Sardinians(19.2), Spanish(65.6), Portuguese(58.4), Sao Tome(10.1).

AND Tsumkwe Namibian Ju’hoanse San= 6%

Berniell-Lee, G. et al. “Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages,” Mol. Biol. Evol. 26(7): 1581–1589.

Wood, E. T., et al. 2005 “Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes,” European Journal of Human Genetics 13: 867–876

Hirbo, J.H. 2011 Complex Genetic History of East African Human Populations PhD Dissertation, Department of Biology, University of Maryland

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

.


.

---

Apart from the misleading 53% on Equatorial Guinea there are other problems with the figures you cite. The entire table is titled “African Carriers of R-M269” but in reality R-M269 is extremely rare in Africa. Instead what you are listing are amounts of R1b* (also called R-P25*, R-M343, R-V88). A part of the problem is the unsettled state of the nomenclature and the fact that over the last 10 years different papers have used different names.

For example in Berniell-Lee:

Your table says R-M269 2-20% in Bantu and in Pygmies 5%, but on
p. 1583 what is listed as present is haplotype R-P25 (R1b1*) with 14% frequency in the Bantu. However, there is zero haplotype R-M269 in either Bantu, or Pygmies

In Wood:

You say R-M269 is present in 2.2 % of the Khoisan. On p. 872 she says

quote:

---

While African haplogroup R chromosomes are generally quite rare, R-P25* chromosomes are found at remarkably high frequencies in northern Cameroon (60.7–94.7%).

---

But in Appendix A What we see is a high frequency of R-P25 (R1b1*) in Cameroon But there is ZERO R-M269.

Your cite of Hirbo at 6% R-M269 in the Khoisan is correct.

p. 199 Appendix 6a (ii) part III: Frequency of Y chromosome lineages in Africa, Mediterranean and the Near East

what is listed at a very low level are R1b*[R-V88]and R1b3 (Really R-M269)

The frequencies above 10% of R1b3 (R-M269) listed are:

Algerians (10.8), Iraquis(10.80),Turks(14.7), Greeks(17.4), Albanians(18.5), Sicilians(24.7), Sardinians(19.2), Spanish(65.6), Portuguese(58.4), Sao Tome(10.1).

AND Tsumkwe Namibian Ju’hoanse San= 6%

Berniell-Lee, G. et al. “Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages,” Mol. Biol. Evol. 26(7): 1581–1589.

Wood, E. T., et al. 2005 “Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes,” European Journal of Human Genetics 13: 867–876

Hirbo, J.H. 2011 Complex Genetic History of East African Human Populations PhD Dissertation, Department of Biology, University of Maryland

---

LOL. You admit that the figures in the Table are recorded accurately. And then cite other figures that have nothing to do with M269.

Stop trying to steal the history of Black and African people.

.

---

quote:

---

According to the phylogeography of macro-haplogroup K-M9 which contains haplogroup R1b), an ancient Asia-to-Africa back migration has been hypothesized to explain the puzzling presence of R-P25* in sub-Saharan Africa.18 This hypothesis is strongly supported by the present data. In the revised Y chromosome phylogeny, there are 119 lineages in the macro-haplogroup K-M9 (which includes haplogroups K1-K4 and L to T).31 Of these lineages, only two have been observed in sub-Saharan Africa at appreciable frequencies: T-M7018,41,42 and R-V88 (this study). Both haplogroups have also been observed in Europe and western Asia (Refs 42,43 and this study). If the presence of R1b chromosomes in Africa was not because of a back migration, we would have to assume that all the mutations that connect M9 with V88 in the MSY phylogeny (450 mutations) originated in Africa. Under this scenario, we should assume that all the K-M9 lineages that are now found outside sub-Saharan Africa have survived extinction, whereas those which should have accumulated in Africa are now extinct (with the exception of T-M70 and R-V88) and this is an unlikely scenario.

---

quote:

---

The phylogenetic relationships of numerous branches within the core Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M207[haplo R] support a West Asian origin of haplogroup R1b[R1 M173-> M343 R1b], its initial differentiation there followed by a rapid spread of one of its sub-clades carrying the M269 mutation to Europe.

---

quote:

---

On the other hand, the majority of European R1b chromosomes carry the marker M269, which is absent in most Africa populations that belong to R1b haplotype. In fact a recent study [431] showed that the geographical distribution of R1b1b2 (R-M269) microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia due to the Neolithic expansion [431].
A recent study of Y chromosome lineages in western and southern Cameroonian populations showed low to moderate frequencies of R1b* that extend into Gabon [294]. Moreover, a recent fine scale sequencing/genotyping of terminal markers in R1b haplotype observed R-V88 sub-haplotype in virtually all the Africans that belong to R1b haplotype [573]. The current study confirms the results of previous work [38, 294] that demonstrates that the R1b* haplotype (meaning R-V88 sub-haplotype) is at its highest frequency in Chadic speaking northern Cameroonian populations (Figure 3.3.2, Appendix 6a). However, the haplotype was not found in any population in East Africa (Figure 3.3.2, Appendix 6a).

---

Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

.


.

---

Apart from the misleading 53% on Equatorial Guinea there are other problems with the figures you cite. The entire table is titled “African Carriers of R-M269” but in reality R-M269 is extremely rare in Africa. Instead what you are listing are amounts of R1b* (also called R-P25*, R-M343, R-V88). A part of the problem is the unsettled state of the nomenclature and the fact that over the last 10 years different papers have used different names.

For example in Berniell-Lee:

Your table says R-M269 2-20% in Bantu and in Pygmies 5%, but on
p. 1583 what is listed as present is haplotype R-P25 (R1b1*) with 14% frequency in the Bantu. However, there is zero haplotype R-M269 in either Bantu, or Pygmies

In Wood:

You say R-M269 is present in 2.2 % of the Khoisan. On p. 872 she says

quote:

---

While African haplogroup R chromosomes are generally quite rare, R-P25* chromosomes are found at remarkably high frequencies in northern Cameroon (60.7–94.7%).

---

But in Appendix A What we see is a high frequency of R-P25 (R1b1*) in Cameroon But there is ZERO R-M269.

Your cite of Hirbo at 6% R-M269 in the Khoisan is correct.

p. 199 Appendix 6a (ii) part III: Frequency of Y chromosome lineages in Africa, Mediterranean and the Near East

what is listed at a very low level are R1b*[R-V88]and R1b3 (Really R-M269)

The frequencies above 10% of R1b3 (R-M269) listed are:

Algerians (10.8), Iraquis(10.80),Turks(14.7), Greeks(17.4), Albanians(18.5), Sicilians(24.7), Sardinians(19.2), Spanish(65.6), Portuguese(58.4), Sao Tome(10.1).

AND Tsumkwe Namibian Ju’hoanse San= 6%

Berniell-Lee, G. et al. “Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages,” Mol. Biol. Evol. 26(7): 1581–1589.

Wood, E. T., et al. 2005 “Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes,” European Journal of Human Genetics 13: 867–876

Hirbo, J.H. 2011 Complex Genetic History of East African Human Populations PhD Dissertation, Department of Biology, University of Maryland

---

LOL. You admit that the figures in the Table are recorded accurately. And then cite other figures that have nothing to do with M269.

Stop trying to steal the history of Black and African people.

.

---

Can you read? The table purports to show the presence of R-M269 in Africa. I just quoted your sources that there is NO, NONE, ZERO R-M269 in Africa (except a little in Khoisan, and North Africa). You, as usual, did not quote your sources accurately. What I show is that the sources were talking about a different haplotype R-V88 (also named R1b1*) and that even there your numbers were not accurate.

More importantly-both R1b1 and R-M269 are NOT African, but a back flow from Eurasia. Again quoting your sources, which you , as usual, ignore.

Cruciani, F., et al. 2010 “Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan
connections and the spread of Chadic languages,” European Journal of Human Genetics 18:800-807

quote:

---

According to the phylogeography of macro-haplogroup K-M9 which contains haplogroup R1b), an ancient Asia-to-Africa back migration has been hypothesized to explain the puzzling presence of R-P25* in sub-Saharan Africa.18 This hypothesis is strongly supported by the present data. In the revised Y chromosome phylogeny, there are 119 lineages in the macro-haplogroup K-M9 (which includes haplogroups K1-K4 and L to T).31 Of these lineages, only two have been observed in sub-Saharan Africa at appreciable frequencies: T-M7018,41,42 and R-V88 (this study). Both haplogroups have also been observed in Europe and western Asia (Refs 42,43 and this study). If the presence of R1b chromosomes in Africa was not because of a back migration, we would have to assume that all the mutations that connect M9 with V88 in the MSY phylogeny (450 mutations) originated in Africa. Under this scenario, we should assume that all the K-M9 lineages that are now found outside sub-Saharan Africa have survived extinction, whereas those which should have accumulated in Africa are now extinct (with the exception of T-M70 and R-V88) and this is an unlikely scenario.

---

Myres, N.M., et al. 2011 “A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe,” European Journal of Human Genetics 19: 95–101

quote:

---

The phylogenetic relationships of numerous branches within the core Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M207[haplo R] support a West Asian origin of haplogroup R1b[R1 M173-> M343 R1b], its initial differentiation there followed by a rapid spread of one of its sub-clades carrying the M269 mutation to Europe.

---

Hirbo p299

quote:

---

On the other hand, the majority of European R1b chromosomes carry the marker M269, which is absent in most Africa populations that belong to R1b haplotype. In fact a recent study [431] showed that the geographical distribution of R1b1b2 (R-M269) microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia due to the Neolithic expansion [431].
A recent study of Y chromosome lineages in western and southern Cameroonian populations showed low to moderate frequencies of R1b* that extend into Gabon [294]. Moreover, a recent fine scale sequencing/genotyping of terminal markers in R1b haplotype observed R-V88 sub-haplotype in virtually all the Africans that belong to R1b haplotype [573]. The current study confirms the results of previous work [38, 294] that demonstrates that the R1b* haplotype (meaning R-V88 sub-haplotype) is at its highest frequency in Chadic speaking northern Cameroonian populations (Figure 3.3.2, Appendix 6a). However, the haplotype was not found in any population in East Africa (Figure 3.3.2, Appendix 6a).

---

---

This has nothing to do with my Table on M269 in Africa.


In the Table I cite the source and the frequency. Only a fool and moron would accept your statements as valid given the fact you have repeatedly shown that the figures are correct.

Stop trying to steal the history of Black people.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


In the Table I cite the source and the frequency. Only a fool and moron would accept your statements as valid given the fact you have repeatedly shown that the figures are correct.

Stop trying to steal the history of Black people.

---

Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


In the Table I cite the source and the frequency. Only a fool and moron would accept your statements as valid given the fact you have repeatedly shown that the figures are correct.

Stop trying to steal the history of Black people.

---

You can whirl , you can spin, you can emit lots of spam BUT there is no R-M269 in Africa, R-V88 (R1b1) is only present in a limited area in Africa, there is no R-M173 (R1) in Africa.
There is nothing to refute. Something has to proven before it can be refuted. It is up to the proposer to produce the evidence for a proposal. You have only produced misquotes. Please quote word-for-word refereed papers that say "M-269 is widespread in Africa" "M-173 is widespread in Africa, "R=P25*(R1b1) is widespread in Africa.

---

LOL. If M269 is found in Central, South,North Africa and etc., it is widespread because it is not situated in just one part of the African Continent.



This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[]LOL. If M269 is found in Central, South,North Africa and etc., it is widespread because it is not situated in just one part of the African Continent.



This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

---

Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[]LOL. If M269 is found in Central, South,North Africa and etc., it is widespread because it is not situated in just one part of the African Continent.



This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

---

Repeating a lie over and over will not magically turn it into a valid statement. Anyone, including your acolytes (if they are not mesmerized), can go to the papers in question-- all available free and try to find M269 . It is not there. Provide us with a quote-- not a paraphrase or interpretation- that says "R1-M269 is widespread in Africa."

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

---

this chart made by Clyde is incorrect

example, Biernell-Lee's 2009 paper >>

quote:

---

Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages
Biernell-Lee et al 2009

On the whole, most of the samples belonged to previously described African lineages especially common in sub-Saharan Africa. Specifically, most of these lineages have been associated either with Bantu-speaking people—E1b1a (E3a according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), B2a, and E2—or to Pygmy populations (haplogroup B2b). We also observed traces of haplogroups A, E*, E1a, and E1b1b1a (E3b1 according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), which are found at low frequencies across the African continent (Underhill et al. 2000, 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; Wood et al. 2005). Interestingly, almost 5% of the individuals here analyzed belonged to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*.

Haplogroup E1b1a, previously proposed as being a marker of the Bantu expansion (Passarino et al. 1998; Scozzari et al. 1999; Underhill et al. 2001; Wood et al. 2005), was the most frequent haplogroup in our sample set (76%), reaching a frequency of almost 80% in agriculturalists and 28% in Pygmy samples (fig. 1).

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/7/1581/F1.large.jpg

---

As we see here Biernell-Lee reports 0% M269 in the right column of the chart. Insiead R1b1* aka R-P25
And note the numbers are not frequencies. They are just the number of individuals in each group that carried the haplogroup

For instance look again at the quote on E1b1>

E1b1a, previously proposed as being a marker of the Bantu expansion , was the most frequent haplogroup in our sample set (76%), reaching a frequency of almost 80% in agriculturalists and 28% in Pygmy samples

^^^ 76% of the individuals carried E1b1a
But how much on average did those that carried E1b1a ?
Was it 2% or 92%
In this case 80%
That is the frequency, a separate issue as stated

Now let's look at Cruciani 2010 as regards M269 in Africa
Here the figures ARE frequency >





on the far right, haplogroup M269
highest frequency perceatage 2.4% Semitic Egyptians from Baharia
by contrast at the bottom of the chart Western Europeans 57.8%
Perhaps Clyde has R-V69 confused with R-M269 (?)

Clyde Winters is misinterpreting information and making his own charts based on it

---

You are wrong Lee does show that he found M269, eventhough he didn't record the carriers on the Table of Y-chromosomes. .



.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
For an additional example of Winters's misquoting of sources and refusing to acknowledge that haplotype names change see
https://www.academia.edu/10133899/Clyde_Winters_claim_that_haplotype_M1_proves_that_Indian_Dravidians_are_Mande_speakers_from_Africa_is_not_valid

---

This entire paper lacks any merit. I have never said the Dravidians people were Mande speakers. If you read any of my papers you will find that I said

1) The Dravidians originated in the Proto-Sahara

2) The archaeological evidence shows that they belonged to the C-Group, as a result they were Kushites

3) Dravidian and Mande languages are genetically related

4) the Mande and Dravidian speakers migrated into Eurasia after 3000 BC.

5) Figure 3, of Kivisild et al, 1999 illustrate that Indians carry haplogroup M1.




.

.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
For an additional example of Winters's misquoting of sources and refusing to acknowledge that haplotype names change see
https://www.academia.edu/10133899/Clyde_Winters_claim_that_haplotype_M1_proves_that_Indian_Dravidians_are_Mande_speakers_from_Africa_is_not_valid

---

LOL. Montellano the Kivisild articles makes your whole paper invalid and your arguments prima facie evidence of your lack of knowledge about Indian genetics. In the 1999 article, Kivisild admits that Dravidians carry M1, which is an African haplogroup.

This article is just as relevant today as it was in 1999. People carry a particular gene do not just disappear.

The Eastern African hg M1, HVS-I signature motif is 16,129, 16,189, 16,223, 16,249, and 16,311. In the Kivisild et al figure below we see the same motif. The mutations are shown less 16,000.

Here you can clearly see:mutations 129,189, 223 and 311, in Indian M1, in Figure 3, of Kivisild et al, 1999.




In the Kivisild et al 1999 study of Indian mtDNA around 15% carried haplogroup M1. See:

http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Kivisild1999b.pdf
.




In Table 4, Kivisild et al, 1999, we see the frequency of M1 in India.There are 217 million Dravidian speakers in India, if we compare the frequency of M1 carriers to the Dravidian speaking community around 32 million people carry M1.


The frequency of 15% of the Dravidians carrying M1 shows the presence of M1 in India. As a result, your arguments are false and invalid.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged |