Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations Nina Hollfelder, Carina M. Schlebusch, Torsten Günther, Hiba Babiker, Hisham Y. Hassan, Mattias Jakobsson
Published: August 24, 2017https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pgen.1006976
(excerpt)
Abstract
Northeast Africa has a long history of human habitation, with fossil-finds from the earliest anatomically modern humans, and housing ancient civilizations. The region is also the gate-way out of Africa, as well as a portal for migration into Africa from Eurasia via the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula. We investigate the population history of northeast Africa by genotyping ~3.9 million SNPs in 221 individuals from 18 populations sampled in Sudan and South Sudan and combine this data with published genome-wide data from surrounding areas. We find a strong genetic divide between the populations from the northeastern parts of the region (Nubians, central Arab populations, and the Beja) and populations towards the west and south (Nilotes, Darfur and Kordofan populations). This differentiation is mainly caused by a large Eurasian ancestry component of the northeast populations likely driven by migration of Middle Eastern groups followed by admixture that affected the local populations in a north-to-south succession of events. Genetic evidence points to an early admixture event in the Nubians, concurrent with historical contact between North Sudanese and Arab groups. We estimate the admixture in current-day Sudanese Arab populations to about 700 years ago, coinciding with the fall of Dongola in 1315/1316 AD, a wave of admixture that reached the Darfurian/Kordofanian populations some 400–200 years ago. In contrast to the northeastern populations, the current-day Nilotic populations from the south of the region display little or no admixture from Eurasian groups indicating long-term isolation and population continuity in these areas of northeast Africa.
Author summary
Northeast Africa has geographic and historical links to Eurasia via the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula, but the demographic history of the region itself has been more elusive. We investigate genomic diversity of northeast African populations and found a clear bimodal distribution of variation, correlated with geography, and likely driven by Eurasian admixture in the wake of migrations along the Nile. This admixture process largely coincides with the time of the Arab conquest, spreading in a southbound direction along the Nile and the Blue Nile. Nilotic populations occupying the region around the White Nile show long-term continuity, genetic isolation and genetic links to ancestral East African people. Compared to current times, groups that are ancestral to the current-day Nilotes likely inhabited a larger area of northeast Africa prior to the migration from the Middle East as their ancestry component can still be found in a large area. Our findings reveal the genetic history of Sudanese and South Sudanese people, broaden our knowledge on demographic history of humans, and quantify the impact of large-scale historic migration events in northeast Africa.
Introduction
The Nile River Valley and northeast Africa have experienced a long history of human habitation. The region harbored some of the most ancient civilizations in the world and contains fossil finds of the earliest anatomically modern humans [1–3]. Agriculture has a long history in the Nile River valley, and crops of potential Near Eastern origin as well as sorghum found in Sudan have been dated to 3000BC [4]. Livestock was introduced into northeast African and Sudan in the 5th millennium BC (likely from the North) and pastoralism spread rapidly across sedentary agriculturalists who lived along the Nile as well as to the nomadic populations inhabiting the drier surrounding regions [4]. Following the introduction of agriculture and pastoralism, settlements started growing, which led to the forming of political units. In Nubia (roughly the northern parts of current-day Sudan), the Kingdom of Kerma emerged around 3000 BC. Nubia has successively been at the center of several ensuing states, and the historical records show interactions with neighboring states through trade and confrontation, possibly reaching back to predynastic times [4–6]. Modern-day Sudan and South Sudan cover parts of the Nile River and the joining of the Blue and the White Nile, areas that link the northern part of the Nile Valley and North Africa with East Africa. Today, these areas display great linguistic diversity, with Sudan and South Sudan housing 137 living languages [7], which belong to three of the four linguistic macro-families found on the African continent: Afro-Asiatic, Nilo-Saharan, and Niger-Congo.
Previous genetic studies focusing on human history in Sudan and South Sudan have used uniparentally inherited markers [8–10], low density polymorphic autosomal markers [11–17], or were only covering a limited number of populations [18]. These studies have found substantial genetic differentiation in northeast Africa and indications of migration and admixture. For instance, Tishkoff, Reed [18] investigated more than one hundred African populations using some 800 microsatellites, including six populations from Sudan and South Sudan and showed that eastern Africa harbors substantial amounts of genetic diversity. However, wide ranges of populations, representative of all the main linguistic groupings, in and around Sudan and South Sudan have not been studied in order to decipher population history using high-resolution genome-wide data.
In this study we genotyped some 3.9 million SNPs in 221 individuals from a total of 18 populations from South Sudan and Sudan to investigate population structure and admixture patterns, which we use to reconstruct the genetic history of this region of northeast Africa. We find a genetic differentiation within the Sudanese and South Sudanese groups that is driven by Eurasian admixture, which may have followed the Nile southward and coincides with the time of the Arab conquest.
Nilotic groups emerged from an ancestral group of East Africa
Among the populations from Sudan and South Sudan, the four Nilotic populations formed a notable population cluster based on the genome-wide data. They were genetically uniform with little genetic differentiation among themselves (pairwise FST values ≤ 0.0028, Fig 1B, S7A Fig). In the ADMIXTURE analyses, the Nilotic populations retained a specific ancestry component (blue), which is shared with other northeast African groups at low values of K, where most of the Sudanese populations have a substantial fraction of this ancestry (Figs 2 and S1–S6). Even at higher values of K, the Nilotes formed their own ancestry component, a component found in modest proportions in populations from Sudan and South Sudan. The Nilotes also appeared as one of the most common source populations for other Sudanese and South Sudanese populations (Figs 2 and 3A). We furthermore compare the affinity between the Nilotes and Neolithic European farmers (represented by an individual from the Linearbandkeramik (LBK)), using the 4,500 year old Mota individual from Ethiopia to represent an East African group that has not been affected by Eurasian admixture in the last 4,500 years [25]. Testing the population tree D(Ju|’hoansi,LBK;Mota,Nilote) shows no support for an affinity between Neolithic European farmers and Nilotes (S8A Fig), as can also be seen from the f4-ratio estimates of Eurasian ancestry in Nilotes (Fig 3B, S9A Fig). Previous studies of uniparental or few markers also found little support for incoming gene-flow to the Nilotic populations [9, 11, 15, 25], and, taken together with our results, Nilotic populations appear to have remained relatively isolated over time.
The Nilotes are predominantly pastoralist populations, they live in Uganda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, and are the most prominent ethnicity in South Sudan. They are traditionally strongly endogamic which could account for low levels of admixture. In terms of specific Nilotic populations, the f3 test showed no significant signal of gene flow with external populations for the Nuer and Baria (Fig 3A), however, we detected indications of external gene flow from West Africa (YRI) into Dinka (f3 = -0.001038, Z = -5.283) and TSI to Shilluk (f3 = -0.002565, Z = -7.951, S2 Table). These observations taken together, suggest long term isolation and continuity between the current-day Nilotic populations and the ancestral populations of northeast Africa.
Little admixture in northeast Africa with Bantu-speaking groups
All the investigated Sudanese and South Sudanese populations, except the Hausa, showed almost no West African (orange in Fig 2) component or, at a higher K, Bantu component (Fig 2, yellow in S3 Fig) in the ADMIXTURE analysis. The Bantu migration that swept over most of sub-Saharan Africa 3–4 thousand years ago (kya) [26] did not cause massive admixture in northeast Africa, contrary to what has been found in many other sub-Saharan African regions, e.g. East Africa and southern Africa [18, 27, 28]. This expansion seems to have passed south of the Sudanese Nilotic populations in an eastward direction from West-Africa. The strongly endogamic Nilotic populations could have acted as a migration barrier for northeast Africa preventing admixture with Bantu-speaking groups of West African origin during the migrations of the Bantu expansion, potentially in addition to climatic barriers connected to the agriculture of the Bantu-speakers. Although there are a few Bantu speaking populations in South Sudan [29] that likely migrated during the Bantu expansion, they do not appear to have mixed much with local Nilotic groups.
The Afro-Asiatic speaking Hausa population from northeastern Sudan was the exception to the observation of little West African affinity in Sudan and South Sudan (Fig 1). The Hausa, originally of western Africa, comprises the largest West African population that have migrated to Sudan during the past 300 years, traditionally employed mainly in agricultural activities [30, 31]. In S11 Fig they cluster in between the West African Yoruba and Nzime, and the Darfurian/Kordofanian and Nilotic populations. This finding is consistent with previous analyses [18, 30, 32, 33]. Even though the ADMIXTURE analysis showed some level of local Nilotic genetic material (~30% at K11 and higher, Fig 2, S3 Fig), the f3 statistics did not provide significant evidence for admixture with Darfurian/Kordofanian and Nilotic populations. Using LD decay patterns [34], we estimate an admixture event in the Hausa to 31.2 ± 9.3 generations ago (Z = 3.34683) from a Eurasian source. This is before the historically documented settlement of the Hausa in the Sudan and it is still unknown if the Hausa populations of West Africa also show this admixture signal. These observations point to that the Hausa originated in West Africa and migrated recently to Sudan, where they have stayed relatively isolated from neighboring populations.
Nubians are an admixed group with gene-flow from outside of Africa
The Nubians inhabit the Nile valley in the arid desert of northern Sudan and speak Eastern Sudanic languages of the Nilo-Saharan linguistic family that are close to the languages spoken by Nilotic populations (Table 1, Fig 1A). The Nubian populations have a long history in the region, dating back to dynastic Egypt [5]. They showed little genetic differentiation among individuals and groups, with a maximum (across all pairwise comparisons) pairwise FST (Weir and Cockerham’s estimator) of 0.004513 between the Mahas and the Halfawieen (Fig 1B, S7A Fig). The FST values to the surrounding Arabic and Beja populations were also low, which hints at gene-flow or shared ancestry with the neighboring populations. Even though the Nubians and the Nilotes are linguistically closer to each other than to the Afro-Asiatic groups, the Nubians showed the greatest genetic differentiation (FST between 0.02 and 0.04) to the Nilotes (Fig 1, S7A Fig). To investigate whether this signal of genetic differentiation is driven by the Eurasian admixture into the Nubians (as seen in Fig 2), we created pseudo-‘unadmixed’ (in terms of not having Eurasian admixture) allele frequencies (see SI) and calculated Wright’s FST, which showed that an ‘unadmixed’ Nubian gene-pool is genetically similar to Nilotes (S7B Fig). The strongest signal of admixture into Nubian populations came from Eurasian populations (S10 Fig, S2 Table) and was likely quite extensive: 39.41%-47.73% (f4-ratio, Z-scores between 22.8 and 26.7 Fig 3B, S9 Fig). Interestingly, the Nubians showed the highest level of allelic richness, number of private alleles and shared private alleles (ADZE, between Danagla and Halfawieen, S12 Fig) among all Sudanese and South Sudanese groups. This observation together with a smaller total length of runs of homozygosity, between lengths of 0.5–1 kilobases, points to substantial admixture in Nubians (Fig 4). Hence, the Nubians can be seen as a group with substantial genetic material relating to Nilotes that later have received much gene-flow from Eurasians (likely Middle Eastern) and from East Africans
West-Eurasian migration from the north
All the populations that inhabit the Northeast of Sudan today, including the Nubian, Arab, and Beja groups showed admixture with Eurasian sources and the admixture fractions were very similar. The admixture component in the northeastern groups cluster with the greater European and Middle Eastern group assuming few clusters, and for greater number of assumed clusters, when a predominantly Middle Eastern cluster emerged, the admixture in northeastern Sudan connected to the Middle East (ADMIXTURE, Fig 2, f3, S10 Fig). According to historical and linguistic studies, and recent Y-chromosome data it has been suggested that the northeastern Sudanese populations especially Nubians and Beja were strongly affected by Eurasian migrations since the introduction of Islam from the Arabian Peninsula through Egypt and the Red Sea starting around 651 A.D [9, 35].
Assuming that the Nubian population is a mixture of an incoming Eurasian (TSI is used as a proxy) group and a resident group that is genetically similar to the current day Nilotes (Nuer is used as a proxy), first contact is dated using patterns of LD-decay [34] to roughly 56 generations ago for the Danagla (54.45 ± 10.34, Z = 5.26437) and the Mahas (58.35 ± 12.2, Z = 4.78402); the Halfawieen have received Eurasian admixture later, around 19 generations ago (19.31 ± 3.81, Z = 5.05949, S7 Table, Fig 3C). Assuming a generation time of 30 years, the admixture dates for Danagla and Mahas predate the Arab expansion in the 7th century, and may suggest that the migrations and admixture predate Islamic conquest. However, the confidence intervals overlap with the 7th century, and these admixture estimates largely coincide with the Arab expansion into the northeast of Sudan. It is known from historic sources that Arabic groups encountered the Nubians first in the 7th century, and were held back from advancing further into the Sahel until the fall of Dongola in 1315/1316AD [36] and the collapse of the Kingdom of Makuria. This is consistent with the later date for the admixture into Halfawieen and the Arabic populations of Sudan. Previous studies [37, 38] have found a similar pattern for populations of Maghreb, where admixture times coincide with the time of the historically documented Arab conquest.
The Eurasian migrations also appear to have expanded and migrated into northeast Africa where they admixed with local populations giving rise to Arabic-speaking groups (Shaigia, Gaalien and Bataheen) that today inhabit areas of central Sudan (Fig 2). We further tested the source of admixture into the central Sudan Semitic speaking Arab groups (Shaigia, Gaalien and Bataheen) using ancient samples from Europe (LBK) and East Africa (Mota) and the population history of D(Ju|’hoansi,LBK;Mota,X), (where the Ju|’hoansi is an outgroup Khoe-San population from Namibia), which suggested Eurasian admixture into central Sudan Arab groups (see SI, S8A Fig). This migration and admixture occurred later than the events that brought Eurasian gene-flow into the Nubians (S3 Table, Fig 3C). Interestingly, when we overlay the Eurasian genetic component onto a geographic map, it appears as if the expansion could have spread along the Blue Nile (Fig 3B and 3C), showing a gradient of higher to lower admixture proportion and older to younger admixture dates from northern Sudan to South Sudan. The Eurasian admixture proportion in the Arab populations is high, ranging between ~40%–48% (SI, Fig 3B and S9A Fig). The presence of a northeast African genetic signature similar to Nilotic populations and the recent admixture signal from Eurasia indicates that the populations in central Sudan that self-identify as Arab were originally a local northeast African population (similar to the Nubians and the Beja) that mixed with a Eurasian population during the Arab expansion, or possibly earlier. However, the mixed groups kept the language and culture of the incoming migrants.
Beja groups, who generally reside in eastern areas of Sudan close to the sea, show high non-African admixture in all tests (Figs 2 and 3B, S1–S6 and S8–S10 Figs). The Beni Amer also showed a strong admixture signal with a Eurasian population as well as a shared ancestry component with the Somali population (pink component in Fig 2), which suggest admixture with the East African Cushitic-speaking populations, perhaps as a result of migration along the coast. We dated the admixture of the Beja populations with the Cushitic-speaking Somalian population [39], and the admixture dates go far back in time, about 59 generations ago for the Hadendowa and about 68–75 generations for the Beni Amer (S3 and S4 Tables). The large proportion of the East African (pink in Fig 2) component is therefore not a result of recent admixture of East Africans into the Beni Amer. Admixture of non-Africans into the Beni Amer was also dated to an early event about 107.7 ± 24.4 generations ago (Z = 4.41711) and a younger event, 34.2 generations ago (± 9.6, Z-score = 3.55532 Fig 3C, S7 Table) suggesting an early migration from Eurasian into these coastal African populations, possibly across the sea. However, these old admixture events into the Beni Amer could be driven by admixture from the Cushitic-speaking populations of the Horn of Africa, which themselves have received 30–50% non-African ancestry about 100 generations ago, or 3kya [22, 40].
The population history of the Copts and their relation to Egyptians
The Copts represent a well-known ethnic group, generally practicing Christianity, which migrated from Egypt to Sudan around 200 years ago, settling in a predominately Muslim region. The ADMIXTURE analyses and the PCA displayed the genetic affinity of the Copts to the Egyptian population (Fig 2, S1–S6, S11 and S13–S16 Figs). Assuming few clusters, the Copts appeared admixed between Near Eastern/European populations and northeastern Sudanese and look similar in their genetic profile to the Egyptians. Assuming greater number of clusters (K≥18), the Copts formed their own separate ancestry component that was shared with Egyptians but can also be found in Arab populations (Fig 2). This behavior in the admixture analyses is consistent with shared ancestry between Copts and Egyptians and/or additional genetic drift in the Copts [41, 42].
The Copts and the Egyptians have a historically documented shared history. We further investigate the relationships of the Copts and the Egyptians to other groups. All population histories tested in every possible combination of either Copts or Egyptians, and Bedouin and Nuer, with Ju|’hoansi as outgroup to the others were rejected (D-statistic, |Z|>5.5), which points to a non-tree-like history of the Copts and Egyptians. Our results instead indicate that they are an admixed population of at least one sub-Saharan population and one Eurasian population, but had subsequent admixture with additional groups. The population tree that has the most support finds the Nuer (Nilotic) as an outgroup to the Bedouin and Copts (D(Ju|’hoansi,Nuer;Bedouin,Copts) = 0.0103, Z = 5.550). The Copts were estimated to be of 69.54% ± 2.57 European ancestry and the Egyptians of 70.65% ± 2.47 European ancestry (f4-ratio, Fig 3B, S9A Fig).
The Egyptians and Copts showed low levels of genetic differentiation (FST = 0.00236, Fig 1B), lower levels of genetic diversity (S17 Fig) and greater levels of RoH (Fig 4) compared to other northeast African groups, including Arab and Middle Eastern groups that share ancestry with the Copts and Egyptians (Fig 2) [41]. A formal test (D(Ju|’hoansi,X;Egypt,Copt)), did not find significant admixture into the Egyptians from other tested groups (X) as the explanation of the (admittedly low level of) differentiation between the two groups, and the Copts and Egyptians displayed similar levels of European or Middle Eastern ancestry (S8A and S8B Fig). Taken together, these results point to that the Copts and the Egyptians have a common history linked to smaller population sizes, and that the Copts have remained relatively isolated since the arrival to Sudan with only low levels of admixture with local northeastern Sudanese groups (S8B Fig).
Conclusion
We have shown that there has been long-term migration into Sudan, moving in a southward direction possibly along the Nile and the Blue Nile. From historic documents, we know that the ancient Egyptians were in contact with the ancient Nubians that inhabited the Nile area in the north of modern-day Sudan. Our study suggests that the later migration followed along the Nile, likely being held up by the Nubians until the fall of the Kingdom of Makuria in the 14th Century [4]. Following that historic event, the Arab expansion spread further southward, which can be seen in a succession of admixture events that occur more recent in time as one travels south. Many populations in Sudan that self-identity as Arab, displayed a population history of local Sudanese populations that have admixed with incoming Eurasian populations, and adopted the language and culture of the incoming migrants. In fact most populations from northeast Sudan (Nubian, Arab and Beja groups) seem to be a mixture of Middle Eastern and local northeast African genetic components, although only the Arab groups shifted to the Semitic languages. Cultural and linguistic replacement following the Arab conquest has been described previously in populations of the Maghreb [37, 38, 43].
The Eurasian admixture had less impact on the populations of western Sudan and South Sudan. The Darfurian and Kordofanian populations showed overall less admixture from non-African groups than the northeastern populations (and the limited admixture that does exist is more recent in time). The Nilotic populations have stayed largely un-admixed, which appears to be the case in Ethiopia too, where a similar observation has been made for the Gumuz [23, 44], an Ethiopian Nilotic population that is genetically similar to South Sudan Nilotes. Northeast African Nilotes showed some distinction from an ancient Ethiopian individual (Mota, found in the Mota Cave in the southern Ethiopian highlands), which suggests population structure between northeast and eastern Africa already 4,500 years ago. The modern-day Nilotic groups are likely direct descendants of past populations living in northeast Africa many thousands of years ago.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Long piece but full of tendentious nonsense. This topic has beaten more times than a dead horse.
The whole exercise is otiose because even if true--and it is not--one can say the same about all other groups external to Africa.
Example: the European genome is a combination of indigenous haplogroups and African haplogroups.
Egyptian Panoply of Peoples
The 2 African groups are obvious. The outsiders are also obvious.
The research fools don't seem to understand that Africans migrated out of Africa and remained phenotypically Africans even mutations led to new haplogroups. Some Africans are R and others are E, does that make them different population clines?
The research fools don't seem to understand that Africans migrated out of Africa and remained phenotypically Africans even mutations led to new haplogroups. Some Africans are R and others are E, does that make them different population clines?
A cline is a gradual change in characteristics from one population to another. E and R don't originate in the same place
However the article is not a discussion of hapolgroups.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Eurasian migrations, who else? Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
Interesting results, ok. the Sudanese people are very beautiful and so is thier culture but they come in a very broad range clearly an admixed society but also cleary African. but what always strikes me is how similar to African Americans they look as a population.
These unafrican Sudanese Nubians are going full Kemet/Nubia lol good vid great music, they look like average AA's with varying degrees of admixture maybe a lil horner but not much.
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: These unafrican Sudanese Nubians are going full Kemet/Nubia lol good vid great music, they look like average AA's with varying degrees of admixture maybe a lil horner but not much.
The interesting thing about the Sudanese is that the Colloquial Sudanese Arabic words they speak are closely related to ancient Egyptian.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: These unafrican Sudanese Nubians are going full Kemet/Nubia lol good vid great music, they look like average AA's with varying degrees of admixture maybe a lil horner but not much.
The interesting thing about the Sudanese is that the Colloquial Sudanese Arabic words they speak are closely related to ancient Egyptian.
AfroAsiatic was born in Africa and Arabic derives from it. Arabic script is related to the various Scripts that evolved in the Nile Valley and Arabia. Earliest evidence for white linen shawls is seen in Nile Valley art long before any "arabs" in Africa. Nile Valley ancient traditions of worship centering around Ptah (the word) influenced the development of the Judaic religions (Islam, Judaism and Christianity). Earliest evidence of skull caps in Nile Valley associated with Ptah and common dress. Earliest use of Incense in the Nile Valley for religious festivals. Earliest evidence for bowing and prostration as part of religious worship in Nile Valley..... And on and on and on.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: These unafrican Sudanese Nubians are going full Kemet/Nubia lol good vid great music, they look like average AA's with varying degrees of admixture maybe a lil horner but not much.
The interesting thing about the Sudanese is that the Colloquial Sudanese Arabic words they speak are closely related to ancient Egyptian.
AfroAsiatic was born in Africa and Arabic derives from it. Arabic script is related to the various Scripts that evolved in the Nile Valley and Arabia. Earliest evidence for white linen shawls is seen in Nile Valley art long before any "arabs" in Africa. Nile Valley ancient traditions of worship centering around Ptah (the word) influenced the development of the Judaic religions (Islam, Judaism and Christianity). Earliest evidence of skull caps in Nile Valley associated with Ptah and common dress. Earliest use of Incense in the Nile Valley for religious festivals. Earliest evidence for bowing and prostration as part of religious worship in Nile Valley..... And on and on and on.
Colloquial Sudanese Arabic is not really standard Arabic, it appears to me to be an African language. In communication with the Sudanese brothers it is clear that many Nile Valley ceremonies depicted in Egyptian murals are identical to traditional Sudanese ceremanies today especially during weddings.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:Interesting results, ok. the Sudanese people are very beautiful and so is thier culture but they come in a very broad range clearly an admixed society but also cleary African. but what always strikes me is how similar to African Americans they look as a population.
Very obvious that the Eurocentric brainwashing is very alive and well. he proble is that people just don't think logically and intelligently about many matters including the one now being discussed.
First, Africa comprises some 21%(include the offshore islands such as Madagascar, Cape Verde, etc.) of the world's landmass. The climates and ecologies are variable and as a result, flora and fauna have developed distinct subspecies.
The same applies to Africa's human populations. It is foolish and unintelligent Eurocentric thinking to assume that variations in the human phenotype must entail so-called mixtures from outside of Africa if such phenotypes find biased favor with Eurocentrics.
Evolutionary pressures have produced the generic phenotype of East Asians--especially in eye shape/form, hair type and facial structure. Yet the San in Southern Africa carry the same eye form structure, yet there is no proven thesis that East Asians back-migrated to Southern Africa to spread that particular eye form trait.
Given that Africa is the birthplace of humanity with Homo Sapiens Africanus being the source of ALL the world's phenotypes and body morphologies, it's the foolish thinking of the Eurocentric mind-set that assumes a priori that an African physiognomy that has some partial resemblance to some phenotype outside of Africa derives from that source.
Eurocentrics foolishly believe that there is some "ideal type true negro" which is intrinsically African and that deviations from such signify non-African mixtures. This thinking which is still prevalent in some quarters is just a modern-day continuation of the Seligman Hamitic hypothesis.
All this mode of thinking is corrected easily by the way the Ancient Egyptians portrayed themselves and other Africans in their panel of known races. One might note that the dominant haplogroups--the major genetic indices of lineages. For Africa the vast majority of people are E for males and L for females. In the case of Nubia/Sudan there is J which has its highest incidence there. There is also R with its high incidence in the Camerooon, Guinea Bissau and elsewhere.
Given the fact that modern humans lived in Africa for some 75% of their time on earth, it is clear that when a trait is found both in Africa and elsewhere, it is logical to think that the trait in question derives from Africa. Thus in the case of J, it is safe to argue that J in the Arabian Peninsula derives from J in Africa(Nubia/Sudan). Same for R in the Cameroon. The same holds for E in Europe.
Egyptian Panel of Peoples There are 2 distinct Africans and others from outside of Africa--West Asians and Europeans.
Now "Qui est la plus belle"? That's the title of a beauty pageant they have every year in Dakar, Senegal
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
Given the fact that modern humans lived in Africa for some 75% of their time on earth, it is clear that when a trait is found both in Africa and elsewhere, it is logical to think that the trait in question derives from Africa.
It's assumption because in the tens of thousands of years people lived outside of Africa there was ample time for new haplogroups to form and then for such people to back migrate into Africa.
The origin of a haplogroup is estimated by a) frequency b) diversity c) oldest human remains carry the group
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: These unafrican Sudanese Nubians are going full Kemet/Nubia lol good vid great music, they look like average AA's with varying degrees of admixture maybe a lil horner but not much.
The interesting thing about the Sudanese is that the Colloquial Sudanese Arabic words they speak are closely related to ancient Egyptian.
AfroAsiatic was born in Africa and Arabic derives from it. Arabic script is related to the various Scripts that evolved in the Nile Valley and Arabia. Earliest evidence for white linen shawls is seen in Nile Valley art long before any "arabs" in Africa. Nile Valley ancient traditions of worship centering around Ptah (the word) influenced the development of the Judaic religions (Islam, Judaism and Christianity). Earliest evidence of skull caps in Nile Valley associated with Ptah and common dress. Earliest use of Incense in the Nile Valley for religious festivals. Earliest evidence for bowing and prostration as part of religious worship in Nile Valley..... And on and on and on.
Colloquial Sudanese Arabic is not really standard Arabic, it appears to me to be an African language. In communication with the Sudanese brothers it is clear that many Nile Valley ceremonies depicted in Egyptian murals are identical to traditional Sudanese ceremanies today especially during weddings.
Yes. I have seen wedding videos on Youtube from Northeast Africa like that as well...
quote:It's assumption because in the tens of thousands of years people lived outside of Africa there was ample time for new haplogroups to form and then for such people to back migrate into Africa.
Either you fail to see the tendentious Eurocentric racism here or you are just being deliberately coy. Just old wine in new bottles.
If the Andaman Islanders or New Guineans decided to back migrate to Africa some 10,000 years ago and settled in what is now Tanzania,little or no research would be done by the Eurocentrics on this. Their goal is to concoct specious proofs that points of civilization so perceived in Africa or in the case of other naive viewers, points of phenotypical interest could not have originated in Africa
This was the case of Ancient Egypt with such fraudulent experts such as Breasted and his fictitious "dynastic race" theory, according to which an Asiatic race entered Egypt to establish the Egyptian dynasties.
Seligman's Hamitic hypothesis was of the same tendency. Quick witted Asiatics entered Africa and overpowered slower-witted Africans to establish Africa's high cultures and civilizations.
The irony of all of this is that it was Africans themselves who left Africa some 60-70KYA to settle in and introduce human cultures to the rest of the world. Just amusing that the great grandchildren are trying to deny the works of their African patriarch. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
Either you fail to see the tendentious Eurocentric racism here or you are just being deliberately coy. Just old wine in new bottles.
If the Andaman Islanders or New Guineans decided to back migrate to Africa some 10,000 years ago and settled in what is now Tanzania,little or no research would be done by the Eurocentrics on this. Their goal is to concoct specious proofs that points of civilization so perceived in Africa or in the case of other naive viewers, points of phenotypical interest could not have originated in Africa
This was the case of Ancient Egypt with such fraudulent experts such as Breasted and his fictitious "dynastic race" theory, according to which an Asiatic race entered Egypt to establish the Egyptian dynasties.
Seligman's Hamitic hypothesis was of the same tendency. Quick witted Asiatics entered Africa and overpowered slower-witted Africans to establish Africa's high cultures and civilizations.
The irony of all of this is that it was Africans themselves who left Africa some 60-70KYA to settle in and introduce human cultures to the rest of the world. Just amusing that the great grandchildren are trying to deny the works of their African patriarch. [/QB]
Our study suggests that the later migration followed along the Nile, likely being held up by the Nubians until the fall of the Kingdom of Makuria in the 14th Century [4]. Following that historic event, the Arab expansion spread further southward, which can be seen in a succession of admixture events that occur more recent in time as one travels south. Many populations in Sudan that self-identity as Arab, displayed a population history of local Sudanese populations that have admixed with incoming Eurasian populations, and adopted the language and culture of the incoming migrants. In fact most populations from northeast Sudan (Nubian, Arab and Beja groups) seem to be a mixture of Middle Eastern and local northeast African genetic components, although only the Arab groups shifted to the Semitic languages. Cultural and linguistic replacement following the Arab conquest has been described previously in populations of the Maghreb [37, 38, 43].
The Eurasian admixture had less impact on the populations of western Sudan and South Sudan. The Darfurian and Kordofanian populations showed overall less admixture from non-African groups than the northeastern populations (and the limited admixture that does exist is more recent in time). The Nilotic populations have stayed largely un-admixed, which appears to be the case in Ethiopia too, where a similar observation has been made for the Gumuz [23, 44], an Ethiopian Nilotic population that is genetically similar to South Sudan Nilotes. Northeast African Nilotes showed some distinction from an ancient Ethiopian individual (Mota, found in the Mota Cave in the southern Ethiopian highlands), which suggests population structure between northeast and eastern Africa already 4,500 years ago. The modern-day Nilotic groups are likely direct descendants of past populations living in northeast Africa many thousands of years ago.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Blah, blah BS have you any wool?
Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
THE problem is the descendants of the Arab tribesmen who left Arabia and crossed the Red Sea and entered Africa, took on an ideology that led them to have ethnic genocide killing the men and taking the women and impregnating them.
These differences are at the root of the partition of the Sudan and the Genocide of the Black tribes in DarFur province. This Pan-Arab Nationalism in Africa is driving anti-"Black" movements all over Northern Africa.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Very obvious that the Eurocentric brainwashing is very alive and well. he proble is that people just don't think logically and intelligently about many matters including the one now being discussed..... Given the fact that modern humans lived in Africa for some 75% of their time on earth, it is clear that when a trait is found both in Africa and elsewhere, it is logical to think that the trait in question derives from Africa. Thus in the case of J, it is safe to argue that J in the Arabian Peninsula derives from J in Africa(Nubia/Sudan). Same for R in the Cameroon.
Um, the TMRCAs of Y haplogroups are not randomly distributed though the history of modern humans. We have strong reason to think that J and R in fact came into existence during that last 25% when modern humans *were* outside of Africa. This argument is completely illogical.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Nubians are an admixed group with gene-flow from outside of Africa
Just like the Egyptians. Okay tell us something we don't know.
This admixture exposed years ago by studies showing Nubians to have significant frequencies of Y-DNA hg J just like other North Sudanese populations like Sudanese Arabs and Beja. Even Hassan et al. has confirmed this over and over again in previous papers.
Your point is? I hope you are not suggesting the modern Nubian gene pool reflects that of the ancient Nuians.
To everyone else without an agenda Ethio Helix has written good articles on the genetics of Nubians and their relation neighboring Africans. Here are a couple below:
This what Wikipedia had to say. Modern Nile Sudanese Nubians
quote:
According to Y-DNA analysis by Hassan et al. (2008), around 44% of Nile Nubians in Sudan carry the haplogroup J. The remainder mainly belong to the E1b1b clade (23%). Both paternal lineages are also common among local Afroasiatic-speaking populations. The next most frequent haplogroups borne by Nubians are the Western European-linked R1b clade (10%) and the Eurasian lineage F (10%), followed by the archaic African B haplogroup (8%) and the Europe-associated I clade (5%).
Maternally, Hassan (2009) observed that approximately 83% of their Nubian samples carried various subclades of the Africa-centered macrohaplogroup L. Of these mtDNA lineages, the most frequently borne clade was L3 (30.8%), followed by the L0a (20.6%), L2 (10.3%), L1 (6.9%), L4 (6.9%) and L5 (6.9%) haplogroups. The remaining 17% of Nubians belonged to sublineages of the Eurasian macrohaplogroups M (3.4% M/D, 3.4% M1) and N (3.4% N1a, 3.4% preHV1, 3.4% R/U6a1).[31] Analysing a different group of Nubian individuals inhabiting Sudan, Non (2010) found a significantly higher frequency of around 48% of the Eurasian macrohaplogroups M and N. Of these mtDNA lineages, 16% of the examined Nubians belonged to the M clade (around 9% to M1), with the rest bearing N subhaplogroups (including approximately 8% R0, 3% T1a, and 1% H). The remaining 52% of Nubians carried various Africa-centered macrohaplogroup L(xM,N) derivatives, with about 11% of individuals belonging to the L2a1 subclade.
Dobon et al. (2015) identified an ancestral autosomal component of West Eurasian origin that is common to many modern Nubians and Afroasiatic-speaking populations in the Nile Valley and Horn of Africa, including Sudanese Arabs. Known as the Coptic component, it peaks among Egyptian Copts who settled in Sudan over the past two centuries. The scientists associate the Coptic component with Ancient Egyptian ancestry, without the later Arabian influence that is present among other Egyptians. Hollfelder et al. (2017) also analysed various populations in Sudan and similarly observed close autosomal affinities between their Nubian and Sudanese Arab samples.
In 2015, Sirak et al. also analysed the ancient DNA of a Christian-period inhabitant of Kulubnarti in Nubia. The scientists found that the medieval specimen was most closely related to Middle Eastern populations. Further excavations of two Early Christian period (AD 550-800) cemeteries at Kulubnarti, one located on the mainland and the other on an island, revealed the existence of two ancestrally and socioeconomically distinct local populations. Ancient DNA analysis of specimens from these burial sites found that the mainland samples predominantly carried European and Near Eastern mtDNA clades, such as the K1, H, I5, and U1 lineages; only 36.4% of the mainland individuals belonged to African-based maternal haplogroups. By contrast, 70% of the specimens at the island burial site bore African-based clades, among which were the L2, L1 and L5 mtDNA haplogroups.
I am still too not clear with the modern nubians in egypt but it is clear most nubians in sudan do not have arab admixture.By the way to make clear R1b in sudan comes from blacks and has nothing to do with white europeans or white asians. In that study they are really talking about nubians from nile valley in sudan not hill nubians or nubians from darfur,so the study is is misleading.It's not talking about all nubians in sudan. If the nubians from from noba and darfur region the outside admixture rate goes down. Note-most noba are not nubians,but some are.They are called hill nubians.
Note-some say most modern nubians of egypt do not admixture from white but it's ould be alarge grou that do and even if most do have admixture and large number do not.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Kushites speakers afro-asian?
I was wondering if anyone read this from nubian wikipedia from history of the nubians. It says the kushites were afro-asiatic speakers and afro-asians. That's not true by the way.
From Wikipedia
quote:
Shabti figurine of the Kushite King Senkamanisken ca. 643-623 BC (left), marble portrait of a Nubia denizen ca. 120-100 BC (right). The commemorative stela of the Axumite King Ezana indicates that two distinct population groups inhabited ancient Nubia: the Afroasiatic-speaking Kasu (Kushites) who were related to the neighbouring ancient Egyptians, and a Sudanic-speaking population that was instead related to Nilotes.
and
quote:
Historiolinguistic analysis indicates that the early inhabitants of the Nubia region, during the C-Group and Kerma cultures, were speakers of languages belonging to the Berber and Cushitic branches of the Afroasiatic family. They were succeeded by the first Nubian language speakers, whose tongues belonged to the separate Nilo-Saharan phylum.Accordingly, a 4th-century victory stela belonging to King Ezana of the Kingdom of Aksum contains inscriptions describing two distinct population groups dwelling in ancient Nubia: a "red" Kasu population, who are believed to have been Cushitic speakers related to the neighbouring ancient Egyptians, and a "black" Sudanic-speaking population that was instead related to Nilotes. The existence of two such distinct population groups in Nubia has also been confirmed through genetic analysis (see genetics).
The above was posted in nubians link.It was never there before. It has been deleted recently but it may come back so look out for the false info above. Clearly kushites were nilo-saharan,not afro-asian. Someone sneek in afro-asiatic part. Who ever wrote that above got the facts wrong.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
Meroitic is unclassified. it is quite likely Nilo-Saharan, but reasonable arguments have also been made for Afro-Asiatic.
AFAIK there is no record of what the Kushites spoke before Meoritic. it is obviously geographically plausible that at least some of them spoke Afro-Asiatic. connections to Beja and Berber have been made but on slender evidence, they certainly should not be presented as undisputed fact. but neither can we say they were clearly Nilo-Saharan only.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
The specious and repetitive errors made by these ideologically entrapped Eurocentric researchers is that they foolishly don't recognize that Africa is just a landmass--that is 20% of the world's surface and that intra-Africa admixtures have been occurring for some 70,000 years and before that.
Again, the stupidly racist Eurocentric assumption is that any form of "civilization" on the African continent must have its roots outside of the artificially designated continent of Africa. ...Just as in the U.S. where Texas and New Mexico are artificially designated as separate states.
This is just very old wine in new bottles. Examples: the impressive Ancient Egyptian dynastic civilization must have been due to some spurious "dynastic race" coming in from Asia. The same for Seligman's spurious Hamitic hypothesis. Then we have dreamy Eurocentric researchers claiming that the Benin Bronzes were of European origin.
The same pernicious is at work as mediocre researchers seek to promote the spurious idea that Nubian civilization must have been due to Asiatics.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
some early 20th century racists had theories involving Eurasian migration into Africa, therefore all theories involving Eurasian migration into Africa are false.
impeccable logic.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Unlike most Diasporans, Euros build up on what their previous generations laid down.
Same slanted research. Same biased results.
Some go for madeover Okey Doke. Others're getting a Clue.
Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me!
Once bitten twice shy.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
so is the general opinion around here that ancient Nubians lacked MENA type ancestry?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Which Nubia?
Exactly when?
Why is it so important to establish seemingly non-continental whatever for Nubians, Kushites, and ancient Sudanese?
So called MENA? Which MENA? Morocco? Syria, Iran?? Egypt is MENA. Sudan is MENA. Nubia is in Egypt and in Sudan.
Nubian ancestry is as MENA as anybody else is.
No?
Speaking of MENA why not Turkey why not Afghanistan They were on the Nat'l Geo MidEast I used to have on my office wall.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Which Nubia? Exactly when?
any of it, plus the rest of Sudan too. not expected to be homogeneous. after the Mesolithic probably.
quote:So called MENA? Which MENA?
whatever gives the admixture signal of Tuscan, or Pre-Pottery Neolithic B, or Copt, or Bedouin, or whatever else, in East Africa. could be one thing, could be lots of things, don't what it is or wouldn't have to ask. could be 110% African, i don't care. MENA is shorthand.
quote:Why is it so important to establish seemingly non-continental whatever for Nubians, Kushites, and ancient Sudanese?
well none of this is going to cure cancer, but we like to learn about it anyway.
ok, we find lots of this MENA ancestry in Sudan and the Horn of Africa today, and a bit of it further south. it is a relatively distinctive tracer of some ancient population movements (none of which have to be 'pure' anything, to be clear). when and where? one route would go with pastoralists from Egypt through Sudan (Neolithic), thence Atbara (Atbai) into Eritrea and South Sudan (?) to Lake Turkana (Nderit).
but is this actually viable? i don't know, so i ask. (why do i ask here, you'd have to consult a pyschiatrist probably.)
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Which Nubia? Exactly when?
any of it, plus the rest of Sudan too. not expected to be homogeneous. after the Mesolithic probably.
quote:So called MENA? Which MENA?
whatever gives the admixture signal of Tuscan, or Pre-Pottery Neolithic B, or Copt, or Bedouin, or whatever else, in East Africa.
quote:[url=emph]Why is it so <important to establish seemingly non-continental whatever for Nubians, Kushites, and ancient Sudanese?[url]
know, so i ask. (why do i ask here, you'd have to consult a pyschiatrist probably.)
Sorry I don't share the enthusiasm for non- Continental intruders in Africans at the expense of what Africans are themselves.
No other peoples are defined by late non- formative infusion onto the long ago previously existing stock.
Not interested in Hamitites/Black-Whites under whatever guise as essential elements of African peoplehood.
Plenty here are. They can help you.
And if genetics in fact supports an iteration of 19th/20th century anthropology of every innovation in Africa is due to invaders or invader admixed African people then it is what it is and supremacist colonialist science was right all along, Africans are incapable of advancement on their own without help, eh?
If that's true and factual I just have to live with it, but -- Tuscany as MENA?
BTW Is the 3k migration from the Arabian Peninsula sex biased? Did the Habesh originate in Djebuti/ Eritrea/Ethiopia and return with Peninsular females?
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
don't know why anyone needs to be 'defined' as anything. don't know why anyone would be an essential element of African peoplehood, or what that even means.
some guys bringing goats and barley to Africa would not imply all fucking civilization and advancement being due to non-Africans. why do we have to leap to some 100 year old bullshit immediately.
PS it was Tuscany in one study because they had no more suitable references.
PPS i don't know. MENA mtDNA frequency in the Horn of Africa seems to track pretty closely to autosomal proportion suggesting not much sex bias either way. Y hgs all over the place as they tend to be.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
One sourcing for Tuscan in Nubia
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
lol, i think we can rule out Roman POWs as the main source.
don't take it so literally. non-Africans are pretty interchangeable in the genetic big picture, as a consequence of the whole Out-of-Africa thing.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by capra:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Which Nubia? Exactly when?
any of it, plus the rest of Sudan too. not expected to be homogeneous. after the Mesolithic probably.
quote:So called MENA? Which MENA?
whatever gives the admixture signal of Tuscan, or Pre-Pottery Neolithic B, or Copt, or Bedouin, or whatever else, in East Africa.
quote:[url=emph]Why is it so <important to establish seemingly non-continental whatever for Nubians, Kushites, and ancient Sudanese?[url]
know, so i ask. (why do i ask here, you'd have to consult a pyschiatrist probably.)
Sorry I don't share the enthusiasm for non- Continental intruders in Africans at the expense of what Africans are themselves.
No other peoples are defined by late non- formative infusion onto the long ago previously existing stock.
Not interested in Hamitites/Black-Whites under whatever guise as essential elements of African peoplehood.
Plenty here are. They can help you.
And if genetics in fact supports an iteration of 19th/20th century anthropology of every innovation in Africa is due to invaders or invader admixed African people then it is what it is and supremacist colonialist science was right all along, Africans are incapable of advancement on their own without help, eh?
If that's true and factual I just have to live with it, but -- Tuscany as MENA?
BTW Is the 3k migration from the Arabian Peninsula sex biased? Did the Habesh originate in Djebuti/ Eritrea/Ethiopia and return with Peninsular females?
In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too?
Seriously?
And of course MENA only came about as a result of the defeat of the Ottoman Empire which controlled this area. Europeans didn't call it that previously as mostly Europeans coulnt' go there before the 1800s. And after World War 1 the terms really came into its fullest use.
And these people wonder why folks look at them like clowns.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:[b]In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too? [b]
The subconscious assumption by many is that blacks who show intellectual superiority carry "white genes" somewhere in their genotype. This was the case of Philip Emeagwali, who won the a Gordon Bell prize for computing in 1989. Some American reporters wrote that his phenotype showed "white genes".
Same for Nubia. Nubians produced an impressive civilization long before Greece and Rome, therefore, they must have been admixed with Eurasian genes.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too?
I don't know what Doug is reacting to
Sudanese Arabs are the majority population of Sudan.
The topic article states:
quote:
Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations Nina Hollfelder,
We find a genetic differentiation within the Sudanese and South Sudanese groups that is driven by Eurasian admixture, which may have followed the Nile southward and coincides with the time of the Arab conquest.
We investigate genomic diversity of northeast African populations and found a clear bimodal distribution of variation, correlated with geography, and likely driven by Eurasian admixture in the wake of migrations along the Nile. This admixture process largely coincides with the time of the Arab conquest, spreading in a southbound direction along the Nile and the Blue Nile
Furthermore many of the Hg J harboring Arabs already have somewhat dark skin
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Christians and Muslims in Sudan
Christians and Muslims: 543-1821
Nubia has Christian neighbours to the north and to the southeast from the 4th century, when Egypt formally adopts the religion (along with the rest of the Byzantine empire) and when the ruler of Ethiopia is converted to Christianity by Frumentius. But it is another 200 years before Dongola, by now the main kingdom in Nubia, is brought within the Christian fold.
In about543 the king of Dongola is converted to the monophysite version of Christanity, associated in particular with the Coptic church of Egypt and Ethiopia. A few years later, in about 569, the orthodox Christianity of the Byzantine empire reaches Mukarra, a neighbouring kingdom to the south.
During the following century the Christians of Egypt and north Africa succumb to the expansionist vigour of Islam. But Nubia is left free to follow its new Christian path, thanks partly to a treaty agreed in 652. In this year Muslim Arabs invade the northern part of the region from Egypt. But they agree to withdraw on condition that they are sent an annual tribute of 400 slaves.
The treaty holds for more than six centuries, during which the trade routes bring many Muslims south into Nubia. But Muslim raids begin in earnest in the 1270s during the reign of Baybars, the energetic Mameluke sultan of Egypt. In 1315 the annual tribute is finally abolished and a Muslim is placed on the throne of Dongola.
For the next five centuries the Muslim rulers of the Sudan are sometimes the representatives of a powerful administration in Egypt (for example in the early Ottoman years, after 1517). But they are more often tribal dynasties, managing to assert control for a while over a territory more extensive than their immediate local area.
This changes in 1821, when the the region is forcefully taken in hand by the most aggressive ruler of Egypt since the time of Baybars - the Ottoman viceroy Mohammed Ali.
Egyptian rule: from1821
In 1820 Mohammed Ali sends two armies south into the Sudan, each commanded by one of his younger sons. By 1821 they have conquered sufficient of the territory to establish themselves in military headquarters on the point of land formed by the confluence of the Blue and White Niles. The long narrow shape of the camp, coming to a point where the waters join, gives it the name 'elephant's trunk' - or Khartoum in Arabic.
A few years later Khartoum is made the administrative centre of an Egyptian province in the Sudan, acquiring the status of a capital which it and Omdurman, on the opposite bank, have retained ever since.
Though at first seen as part of the Ottoman empire, the independence claimed by Mohammed Ali means that the Sudan becomes once again what it has been in ancient times - the southern province of Egypt. And Egypt steadily claims more and more of the surrounding territory.
From 1846 there are Egyptian officials in the Red Sea ports of Suakin and Mits'iwa. And in 1869 Samuel Baker returns to the southern Sudan, this time with an army, to annexe the vast region known as Equatoria on behalf of the khedive of Egypt (now Ismail, a grandson of Mohammed Ali). But Egyptian control remains tenuous in much of this region. And it is made particularly unwelcome by the western influences to which Ismail inclines.
One cause of friction is the secular nature of Ismail's westernized administration, which is deeply offensive to the traditionally pious Muslims of the Sudan. Another is the policy, inspired by western pressures but fully accepted in Cairo, of putting an end to the slave raiding and trading which is a central feature of the Sudanese economy.
When Baker marches south into Equatoria, as the khedive's governor general, the suppression of the slave trade is part of his brief - together with the imposition of order in some very unruly regions. Four years later the same two tasks still confront his rather more effective successor in this role, Charles Gordon.
General Gordon accepts in 1873 the khedive's appointment as governor general of Equatoria. His role is extended in 1877 to cover the whole of the Sudan. In six years of ceaseless effort, employing the decisive vigour for which his Chinese exploits have already made him famous, Gordon subdues rebellious groups in many different regions of the Sudan.
On his return to England, in 1880, he appears to leave a Sudan in which the Egyptian garrisons have the province well under control. But the situation is tranformed a year later by the emergence of a charismatic religious leader who takes advantage of the widespread discontent of the local Muslims.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too?
well Doug, there are some facts you seem to have overlooked. it turns out that a key part of MENA is not actually in Eurasia. and that not all Eurasians are in fact light-skinned. also, it seems skin colour in the past was not necessarily what it is now. furthermore that the population of ancient Sudan might just have included different people in different times and places. and also that Ancient Egyptians hadn't quite got around to inventing photography and could conceivably have stylized their depictions on occasion.
but other than those details a crushing argument, dude.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
The research fools don't seem to understand that Africans migrated out of Africa and remained phenotypically Africans even mutations led to new haplogroups. Some Africans are R and others are E, does that make them different population clines?
A cline is a gradual change in characteristics from one population to another. E and R don't originate in the same place
However the article is not a discussion of hapolgroups.
See, you are lying again. Either E and R came from outside of Africa ie Eurasia (same region), or both originated in Africa.
The only thing population genetics has to offer is the show how many alleged back-migrations have taken place, and of it goes back to legendary (racist) history books, of which most is based on prejudice mythological, part fantasy and colonial one-sided reasoning. That is the premise and has been the premise from the start.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too?
I don't know what Doug is reacting to
Sudanese Arabs are the majority population of Sudan.
The topic article states:
quote:
Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations Nina Hollfelder,
We find a genetic differentiation within the Sudanese and South Sudanese groups that is driven by Eurasian admixture, which may have followed the Nile southward and coincides with the time of the Arab conquest.
We investigate genomic diversity of northeast African populations and found a clear bimodal distribution of variation, correlated with geography, and likely driven by Eurasian admixture in the wake of migrations along the Nile. This admixture process largely coincides with the time of the Arab conquest, spreading in a southbound direction along the Nile and the Blue Nile
Furthermore many of the Hg J harboring Arabs already have somewhat dark skin
I wonder, when are you going to post about the Abbasynian empire, which stretched as far as the north of the near east. It is kind of disappointing coming from a self proclaimed Africa expert. This one-side white-babble is detrimental.
The still unanswered question remains, how is it possible this doesn’t reflect in physical anthropology? What is it about this mystery?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
quote:[b]In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too? [b]
The subconscious assumption by many is that blacks who show intellectual superiority carry "white genes" somewhere in their genotype. This was the case of Philip Emeagwali, who won the a Gordon Bell prize for computing in 1989. Some American reporters wrote that his phenotype showed "white genes".
Same for Nubia. Nubians produced an impressive civilization long before Greece and Rome, therefore, they must have been admixed with Eurasian genes.
This is fundamentally true. If we study the history of this reasoning we see a clear pattern. And this reasoning goes back centuries. The exclusion of black people in academia is therefore a fundamental problem they feel they have to taccle all the time. Sheik Anta Diop wrote about his racist experience, and we see how he has been attacked. All this “back migration” they argue about, is due to the claim on ancient Egypt. I already have posted how these studies are “fixed”.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Either E and R came from outside of Africa ie Eurasia (same region), or both originated in Africa.
why would they both have to originate on the same continent?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
quote:[b]In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too? [b]
The subconscious assumption by many is that blacks who show intellectual superiority carry "white genes" somewhere in their genotype. This was the case of Philip Emeagwali, who won the a Gordon Bell prize for computing in 1989. Some American reporters wrote that his phenotype showed "white genes".
Same for Nubia. Nubians produced an impressive civilization long before Greece and Rome, therefore, they must have been admixed with Eurasian genes.
In all fairness the study authors just about boundary 'admixture' to the times of foreign invasions, iirc. This is no different than Chancellor Williams (1974).
But the general public won't discern ancient from Christian era and later Nubians. That's how dialectics work, saying something without actually saying it, that subconscious assumption.
I got no idea if Meroe had any Euro resident aliens or house of goods more or less permanently settled foreign agents.
If this fresco isn't just a boast, this is the only art historically suggesting possibility of even a hint of absorbing Euro genomes. I can't imagine his chances for mating though.
Oh, I forgot about possible Maryanu (Eurasian charioteers) serving in Wawat and/or Kush.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
This is right there in the author summary just below the abstract and the point is restated several times in the article
" This admixture process largely coincides with the time of the Arab conquest, spreading in a southbound direction along the Nile and the Blue Nile. "
--Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations Nina Hollfelder, 2017
_______
So far I have not seen any mainstream layman's news article about this, It's actually not anything new Sudanese Arabs are the majority population of Sudan.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
BAD-F-210453-0000: Ba statue of the Viceroy Maloton, from Karanog, Nubia, Meriotic Period, sandstone African, located in the Egyptian National Museum, Cairo, ( Now in Nubian Museum) Karanog, Grave 187
The statue of the Viceroy Maloton was found in tomb 187 of Karanog, the site which was the capital of Lower Nubia in the Meroitic Period, around the 2nd- 3rd century AD. The tomb of this man identified by a tablet, contained other objects, weapons and vessels; one of which was decorated with agricultural scenes.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too?
well Doug, there are some facts you seem to have overlooked. it turns out that a key part of MENA is not actually in Eurasia. and that not all Eurasians are in fact light-skinned. also, it seems skin colour in the past was not necessarily what it is now. furthermore that the population of ancient Sudan might just have included different people in different times and places. and also that Ancient Egyptians hadn't quite got around to inventing photography and could conceivably have stylized their depictions on occasion.
but other than those details a crushing argument, dude.
MENA is a geopolitical term created after WWI. It has nothing to do with history or anthropology.
And obviously it cant be used to claim that ancient Sudanese weren't black like they are today even with so-called "Arab" mixture. To even sit here and try and use a geo-political term created less than 100 years ago as some kind of "source" of what people where where 5000 years ago is stupid is the point.
quote: The Middle East: The Way It Is and Why
By Meredith Friedman
February 10, 2016
Most investors know what an emerging market is. Some might even be able to offer a pretty good definition of what puts the “emerge” into emerging markets. But ask about the Middle East, and no one really knows what it is.
Out of sheer necessity, the name “Middle East” was invented at the start of the 20th century. The need for a name was anchored in a geographic puzzle: how to distinguish the region between the Near East and the Far East. Depending on whom you ask, credit for coining the term “Middle East” goes to either the American military or the British government. Either way, the area’s new identity was determined by outsiders.
The term Near East originally referred to the Ottoman Empire, while the Far East meant East Asia. When the Ottoman Empire disintegrated, it was vital to find a new term for the area that is today Turkey. The name “middle east” was popularized in 1902 by US Naval strategist Alfred Thayer Mahan in an article he authored that ran in the National Review. It has since entered the global lexicon as a term that everyone knows yet few can quite define.
That term is meaningless in a pure geographic sense. If there is a Middle East why is there no Middle West? What about Middle South? This nonsense term has absolutely no bearing on the fact that Africans in what is now Sudan have been crossing into Arabia since before the terms Arabia or Sudan even existed or even the concept of an Arab. And of course they have been blacker than black since then as well as certainly no mixture with any Eurasians would have introduced the darkest skin tones found in any part of Africa either, either now or 5000 years ago.
And certainly the 300,000 year history of black Africans moving around and evolving diversity in Africa before even a human existed anywhere else does not need the presence of any others from anywhere else with some made up geographic name to explain it.
So if we are going to tell the story lets tell the full story.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Northern Sudanese-unvarnished. The best way to profile a population is to study its members in groups.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: MENA is a geopolitical term created after WWI. It has nothing to do with history or anthropology.
who cares when it was invented? i am using it now to refer to what i said i'm using it refer to. that's what words are for.
having some ancestry from beyond the Sahara would not prevent ancient Sudanese (or for that matter ancient Egyptians) from being 'black'.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: MENA is a geopolitical term created after WWI. It has nothing to do with history or anthropology.
who cares when it was invented? i am using it now to refer to what i said i'm using it refer to. that's what words are for.
having some ancestry from beyond the Sahara would not prevent ancient Sudanese (or for that matter ancient Egyptians) from being 'black'.
I know what words are for. You were sarcastically pretending to not understand why some other poster used the term the way they did and I am explaining the context.
MENA as a new made up geographical term has no relevance to the antiquity of and diversity of indigenous African people who predate such populations outside of Africa by hundreds of thousands of years.....
True even the term Africa itself is not truly African but that is beside the point. However, "Africa" as a geographical continent is a fixed entity historically, culturally and anthropologically. "Middle East" is not.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Capra Why not post something that'll give you some substance. Of course being of foreign incursive stock that's what you want to find. Go for it man
Just put up some examples with dates and precise tribes of your wish-they- were-in-Ancient-Nubia-in-significant -numbers European folk.
Because right now it seems like some She, King Solomons Mines, Antinea, or Conan and Bêlit White Clouds Over Kush Euro fantasy to me.
Meanwhile I'll be looking for the Congolese who admixed Lithuania because the two artworks from Wawat and Meroe I posted is all I could dig up to help your case and at best they support insignificant absorbtion (founder effect aside).
DougM The word africa derives from the Aourigha of ancient Tunisia who just may be today's Ifuraces.
if some other term would suit you better feel free to suggest it, Doug.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The best terms to use are
The Maghreb
Sahel
Egypt
Nile Valley
Levant
Arabian peninsula
Anatolia
Mesopotamia
"Western Asia" is popular in articles but a little less precise
_______________________________
"Middle East" is politically contentious ( although I still sometimes use it) and "North Africa" is not good because it can be defined in four or five different ways
The problem with MENA is that it goes as far to step out of the continent trying to link the Mahgreb/Northern Egypt with the Levant/Arabian peninsula ("Middle East") which is somewhat a denial of it's Africaness
MENA has no standardized definition; different organizations define the region as consisting of different territories.
That is a definite problem in the anthropological discussions. The terms I have listed above are not perfect but they are mostly better, less ambiguous
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra: if some other term would suit you better feel free to suggest it, Doug.
That wasn't the point. The point was people coming into areas many thousands of years old and redrawing maps and redrawing people's history are the problem.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by capra: if some other term would suit you better feel free to suggest it, Doug.
That wasn't the point. The point was people coming into areas many thousands of years old and redrawing maps and redrawing people's history are the problem.
Actually it’s a bit crazy, when you really start to think about it. Then to know that the people of that origin have no say in it. It’s like, do as is told, OR!!!
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: That wasn't the point. The point was people coming into areas many thousands of years old and redrawing maps and redrawing people's history are the problem.
different text every week but always the same shitty sermon.
btw, while i reflexively mocked you, your response about depictions of ancient Sudanese skin colour was actually on topic and relevant evidence, i appreciate that.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by capra: if some other term would suit you better feel free to suggest it, Doug.
That wasn't the point. The point was people coming into areas many thousands of years old and redrawing maps and redrawing people's history are the problem.
Do you really expect those this didn't happen to, but benefit from it, want to hear anything negative about it?
Middle East North Africa is an ethno-political term severing all north of the Tropic of Cancer from Africa. Based on Arab conquest and subsequent forced adoption of Arabic language and culture as part of the Arab's Islam. Religion remains a powerful source of control.
It's a way to give Arab League states a faux continent of their own as people who are born and bred Africans (Amazigh and Somali for instance) pretend to be Arab and deny Africa.
It's a way to turn northern Africa into 'SW Asia'. But when life throws lemons catch 'em and make lemonade. So, for the astute it reconnects the Arabian subplate to its parent African plate. I mean now that Turkey, Afghanistan, etc aren't middle east anymore this century.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: That wasn't the point. The point was people coming into areas many thousands of years old and redrawing maps and redrawing people's history are the problem.
Do you really expect those this didn't happen to, but benefit from it, want to hear anything negative about it?
uh, who benefited from what exactly?
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
EDIT: Nah, ain't getting in this right now lol
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
^ lol, you are smarter than me
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: That wasn't the point. The point was people coming into areas many thousands of years old and redrawing maps and redrawing people's history are the problem.
Do you really expect those this didn't happen to, but benefit from it, want to hear anything negative about it?
uh, who benefited from what exactly?
He seemed to be saying the Arabs benefitted by acquiring a piece of Africa
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Can't nobody speak for me.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
BTW Is the 3k migration from the Arabian Peninsula sex biased? Did the Habesh originate in Djebuti/ Eritrea/Ethiopia and return with Peninsular females?
quote:Originally posted by capra: PPS i don't know. MENA mtDNA frequency in the Horn of Africa seems to track pretty closely to autosomal proportion suggesting not much sex bias either way. Y hgs all over the place as they tend to be.
[Pagani (2012)]
[The non-African component was found to be more similar to populations inhabiting the Levant rather than the Arabian Peninsula,]
Whoops. It was the Levant not the AP.
[genetic studies indicate that a major component of recent Ethiopian ancestry originates outside Africa: for example, half of the mtDNA haplotypes16 ]
Yah. 1 out of 2 mtDNA HGs versus 1 out of 5 nrY HGs is definitely a sex bias.
But not any Arabian Habesh women. So I guess Sabaean cross currents don't apply.
[the genomic regions containing functionally divergent genes might experience either positive or negative selection, depending on whether their adaptive contribution was beneficial or damaging in the new environment, or whether it affected social factors such as sexual selection.]
[the presence of the derived A allele of the SNP rs1834640, associated with the light skin pigmentation of Europeans and western Asians,47 at higher frequencies in Semitic-Cushitic groups compared with Omotic, Nilotic, or Nigerian- Congolese groups (0.55 versus 0.23, 0.07, and 0.04, respectively).]
Are there later studies contradicting this Pagani.
Also, was the flow via the Red Sea, the west coastlands of the Red Sea, or the Nile? What in history or archaeology goes along with the genetics?
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
sure, the question is when and where did this sex biased admixture occur?
Natufians from Israel ~13 000 years ago had 5/5 E-M35 as paternal lineages (at least some of it E-Z830(xE-M123)). all of their mt DNA was N, autosomally they mostly resemble other West Eurasians, probably with some kind of indeterminate African ancestry, but with no detectable drift shared with our ancient Ethiopian highlander Mota.
there was also plenty of E-M35 (including a possible E-M34 and a probable E-M78*) in Pre-Pottery Neolithic B of Jordan. The Early Neolithic Moroccans, who are kind of sui generis but more like modern North Africans than anything else, also have 2/2 E-M35 (some E-L19 probably related to E-M81), while their mtDNA is characteristically North African M1b1 and U6a.
so if E-M35 was already dominant in Natufians north of the Sahara before the beginning of the Holocene - and very likely North Africa too judging by its modern distribution - there is no need to have the sex-biased admixture occur again independently in the Horn of Africa 10 000 years later. (not to say it couldn't be, just that it isn't necessary.)
as said above so far as i have seen (haven't exhaustively checked) the *autosomal* MENA ancestry proportion in Horners tends to be pretty close to mt MENA proportion. if the MENA ancestry all arrived by female gene flow it would be half what the mt proportion is. hence it would make sense for E-M35 to have arrived partially admixed with MENA ancestry already.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Oh so women pass E-M35 now. Lol Indeed, the fact is, the sex bias wasn't male nor Neolithic. It was female and Metal.
The way it happened is Ethiopian men acquired Bronze Age Levantine women.
The sex bias is 1 out of 2 Eth mtDNA is not continental 4 out of 5 Eth nrY is native continental.
This isn't based on Speculation et al 2018. It's based on Pagani's, 107 times cited by fellow geneticists, article Ethiopian Genetic Diversity.
The question of this Late Bronze / Early Iron move of Levantine women to Ethiopia remains.
Was it via the Red Sea by ship?
Was it by land down the Medja Nubian inhabited Red Sea coast?
Was it through Egypt and Kush along with Nile?
What history, archaeology, or other disciplines are inline with the genetics?
Thanks for any assistance in vein of my statement the ~3k Ethiopian mixture event biased by Levantine female selection.
Now in a response to me on what I brought up on Eth mix, I'm a leave diversion from that to any thing else for other members to take up.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
not exactly speculation free there.
something to keep in mind when dealing with LD dates: "Assuming that the African and non-African components of the Ethiopian genomes result from a single admixture event, we used ROLLOFF to estimate the midpoint of the period of admixture. However, if there were multiple or continuous admixture events, as with the North African populations, this method detected the most recent event or the admixture midpoint, respectively."
i.e. do not assume 3000 years ago is actually when the mixing event happened, or that there was only one event.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Am J Hum Genet. 2012 Jul 13; 91(1): 83–96. doi: 10.1016/j.ajhg.2012.05.015 PMCID: PMC3397267 Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Reveals Linguistic Stratification and Complex Influences on the Ethiopian Gene Pool
Luca Pagani,1 2012
Abstract Humans and their ancestors have traversed the Ethiopian landscape for millions of years, and present-day Ethiopians show great cultural, linguistic, and historical diversity, which makes them essential for understanding African variability and human origins. We genotyped 235 individuals from ten Ethiopian and two neighboring (South Sudanese and Somali) populations on an Illumina Omni 1M chip. Genotypes were compared with published data from several African and non-African populations. Principal-component and STRUCTURE-like analyses confirmed substantial genetic diversity both within and between populations, and revealed a match between genetic data and linguistic affiliation. Using comparisons with African and non-African reference samples in 40-SNP genomic windows, we identified “African” and “non-African” haplotypic components for each Ethiopian individual. The non-African component, which includes the SLC24A5 allele associated with light skin pigmentation in Europeans, may represent gene flow into Africa, which we estimate to have occurred ∼3 thousand years ago (kya). The non-African component was found to be more similar to populations inhabiting the Levant rather than the Arabian Peninsula, but the principal route for the expansion out of Africa ∼60 kya remains unresolved. Linkage-disequilibrium decay with genomic distance was less rapid in both the whole genome and the African component than in southern African samples, suggesting a less ancient history for Ethiopian populations.
Source of the Major Out-of-Africa Migration
Consistent with previous studies' reports of a steady decline in genetic similarity among non-African populations as a function of geographical traveling distance from East Africa, we found that the FST values estimated between either Ethiopian or North African populations and non-African populations followed the same pattern (Figure 2, Table S2). This steady decline has been argued27 to be compatible with a single exit followed by isolation-by-distance, rather than with two distinct African sources contributing to the non-African diversity. Neither including nor excluding the Ethiopian data altered the pattern. To follow the thread left by this dispersal in more detail, we used the genome partitioning performed earlier to calculate the minimum pairwise difference between the African component of the Egyptian and Ethiopian populations and the equivalent genomic segment in non-Africans. The partitioning would remove noise, caused by recent backflows into Africa, which might otherwise mask the original out-of-Africa signal. If the mouth of the Red Sea had been a major migration route out of Africa, we might observe a closer affinity of Ethiopians, rather than Egyptians, with non-Africans.
As a proof of principle, we first applied the approach to a genetic system with a well-understood phylogeographic structure: mtDNA. Virtually all indigenous sub-Saharan African mtDNA lineages belong to L haplogroups, whereas the presence of haplogroups M and N in North and East Africa has been interpreted as a signal of gene flow back to Africa.48,49 With the full set of 18 mtDNA SNPs used in our genome-wide data set, Egyptians and Moroccans proved to be the closest African population to any non-African population examined (Table 2A). However, when we first partitioned the mtDNA lineages into African and non-African (i.e., L and non-L) and considered only the L component, a different pattern emerged: Ethiopians were the closest population to the non-Africans (Table 2B), consistent with inferences drawn from more detailed mtDNA analyses.50
___________________________
In 2015, a genetic research team led by M. Gallego Llorente and E. R. Jones managed to successfully extract ancient DNA from a human skeleton found in Mota Cave, located in the Gamo highlands of southwestern Ethiopia. The Mota remains belonged to a middle-aged male hunter-gatherer, and were radiocarbon dated to around 4,500 years before present: examination of the fossil’s Y-DNA and mtDNA assigned him to the paternal haplogroup E1b1 and the maternal haplogroup L3x2a, respectively:
In order to ascertain whether Mota carried any West Eurasian ancestry like modern Ethiopian populations, the researchers then ran an admixture analysis using the Yoruba and Druze as the African and West Eurasian reference samples, respectively, against which Mota’s DNA and that of other contemporary populations was compared. The results suggested that Mota lacked any West Eurasian ancestry. This was also supported by the fact that the specimen did not carry the derived SLC24A5 (Ala111Thr/rs1426654) allele linked with lighter skin pigmentation, nor any lactase persistence variants, nor apparently any Neanderthal-associated alleles.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Ok I'm tired of giving references and getting none in return
Last one from that ol' speculator Pagani (2012)
This putative migration from the Levant to Ethiopia, which is also supported by linguistic evidence, may have carried the derived western Eurasian allele of SLC24A5, which is associated with light skin pigmentation. Although potentially disadvantageous due to the high intensity of UV radiation in the area, the SLC24A5 allele has maintained a substantial frequency in the Semitic- Cushitic populations, perhaps driven by social factors including sexual selection.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
ROLLOFF detecting only the latest or mid-point of admixture: same paper you are citing, Pagani et al (2012).
Natufian, PPNB, and Moroccan EN ancient DNA: Lazaridis et al (2016), "Genomic insights into the origin of farming in the ancient Near East" Fregel et al (preprint), "Neolithization of North Africa involved the migration of people from both the Levant and Europe"
Horn mtDNA: Kisvild et al (2004), "Ethiopian mitochondrial DNA heritage: tracking gene flow across and around the Gate of Tears" Mikkelsen et al (2012), "Forensic and phylogeographic characterisation of mtDNA lineages from Somalia" Plaster (thesis, 2011), "Variation in Y chromosome, mitochondrial DNA and labels of identity on Ethiopia" Messina et al (2016), "Linking between genetic structure and geographical distance: study of the maternal gene pool in the Ethiopian population" (thanks to beyoku)
Horn autosomal proportions: Pickrell et al (2014), "Ancient west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa"; other sources give similar results.
EthioHelix blog (what happened to him?) is a fine source of genetic information on the Horn of Africa, as is Awale's blog Anthromadness. (no endorsement of either's opinions is implied.)
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
if we just want to quote authorities at each other how about Hodgson et al (2014), "Early Back-to-Africa migration into the Horn of Africa":
"The non-African ancestry in the HOA, which is primarily attributed to a novel Ethio-Somali inferred ancestry component, is significantly differentiated from all neighboring non-African ancestries in North Africa, the Levant, and Arabia. The Ethio-Somali ancestry is found in all admixed HOA ethnic groups, shows little inter-individual variance within these ethnic groups, is estimated to have diverged from all other non-African ancestries by at least 23 ka...."
"...we demonstrate that most non-African ancestry in the HOA cannot be the result of admixture within the last few thousand years, and that the majority of admixture probably occurred prior to the advent of agriculture."
"The highest levels of shared gene identity are between HOA populations and the Levantine Palestinian and the North African Mozabite population samples. Thus, it is more likely that the genetic-geographic HOA-Arabia distance gradient reflects secondary admixture of Arabian migrants into HOA populations already carrying substantial non-African ancestry or already admixed HOA populations sending migrants into Arabian populations."
"A single prehistoric migration of both the Maghrebi and the Ethio-Somali back into Africa is the most parsimonious hypothesis. That is, a common ancestral population migrated into northeast Africa through the Sinai and then split into two, with one branch continuing west across North Africa and the other heading south into the HOA. For the Ethio-Somali, the lowest FST value from the ADMIXTURE estimated ancestral allele frequencies is with the Maghrebi, which is consistent with a common origin hypothesis. In contrast, the Maghrebi component has lower FST values with Arabian, European, and Eurasian ancestral populations than with the Ethio-Somali, which suggests that the Maghrebi diverged most recently from those populations, and might indicate separate back-to-Africa migrations for the Ethio-Somali and the Maghrebi. Unfortunately, the FST estimates alone are not robust enough to distinguish between single or separate back-to-Africa migrations."
but since i think their treatment of the Ethio-Somali and Maghrebi ADMIXTURE components as coherent non-African ancestral streams is fairly bogus, i'd rather not. i would interpret their Ethio-Somali component as a mix of MENA and Nilo-Sahara or Mota-like ancestry carried by Sudanese pastoralists. but as always i could be wrong.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
to return to the Ethiopian men picking up Levantine women 3000 years ago theory:
1) ROLLOFF tells us nothing about earlier admixture events. we know that much earlier admixture *did* occur, producing populations with E-M35 and putatively non-African mtDNA. the question is whether such populations contributed to Ethiopians.
2) *modern* Levantines being slightly closer to the putatively non-African element of Ethiopians than *modern* Yemenis are does not tell us that people must have come from the Levant specifically 3000 years ago. things change in 3000 years. it could also mean the gene flow came from South Arabia but ancient South Arabians were more like modern Levantines.
but the closest modern population in Pagani et al's analysis (see Table S3) is actually *Egyptians*. oh hey.
3) Levantine populations have had substantial amounts of E-M35 from the present back to at least 13 000 years ago. at 100% frequency in our oldest sample. (Arabians also have lots of course.) so when counting uniparental markers, on what basis do you assume your hypothetical Levantine ancestral population possessed no African (i.e. E) Y haplogroups in the first place?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
The question of this • Late Bronze / Early Iron • move of • Levantine women • to Ethiopia remains.
1 Was it via the Red Sea by ship?
2 Was it by land down the Medja Nubian inhabited Red Sea coast?
3 Was it through Egypt and Kush along with Nile?
4 What history, archaeology, or other disciplines are inline with the genetics?
Now in a response to me on what I brought up on Eth mix, I will ignore diversion from that to: 'Pagani didn't mean what she wrote'; an author's caveats negate the detailed results, discussion, and conclusion sections of their report; Paleolithic to Neolithic nrY; etc, assorted strawmans or to anything else avoidance and diversion driven members wish to disruptively pursue.
Any takers on what I'm actually trying to find out? Do I have to scour the archives for the old posts on this? I remember using Fig S3 to back my view global ADMIXTURE at K=2 can confuse African genomes with non-African ones.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
The question of this • Late Bronze / Early Iron • move of • Levantine women • to Ethiopia remains.
1 Was it via the Red Sea by ship?
2 Was it by land down the Medja Nubian inhabited Red Sea coast?
3 Was it through Egypt and Kush along with Nile?
4 What history, archaeology, or other disciplines are inline with the genetics?
Now in a response to me on what I brought up on Eth mix, I will ignore diversion from that to 'Pagani didn't mean what she wrote', an author's caveats negate the detailed results discussion and conclusion sections of their report. Paleolithic to Neolithic nrY, etc, assorted strawmans or to anything else avoidance driven members wish to pursue.
Any takers on what I'm actually trying to find out? Do I have to scour the archives for the old posts on this?
Yes
"The question of this • Late Bronze / Early Iron • move of • Levantine women • to Ethiopia remains."
-which mitochondrial haplogroup that would be of of significant frequency in Ethiopia are you claiming represents a migration of Leventine women into Ethiopia?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I'm not claiming anything. I made a statement. It was challenged. I posted geneticist support. I received referenceless speculation. The claim of a ~3k sex biased move to Ethiopia is Pagani's.
Take an hour or two to study Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Examine its supplements. Take notes and analyze. Check it's 107 citations by other genetic reports. It's a wrap. The field overwhelmingly accepts it.
Please. Don't ask me more questions. I asked four questions. Attempt answering them, s'il vous plaît ?
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
where does Pagani mention sex bias, and why should we ignore everything published since 2012?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
The maternal ancestry of Ethiopians is similarly diverse. About half (52.2%) of Ethiopians belongs to mtdna Haplogroups L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5, or L6. These haplogroups are generally confined to the African continent. They also originated either in Ethiopia or very near. The other portion of the population belong to Haplogroup N (31%) and Haplogroup M1 (17%).[24] There is controversy surrounding their origins as either native or a possible ancient back migration into Ethiopia from Asia.
Passarino et al. 1998 suggested that: "Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males. ( YDNA J ) Conversely, the Niger–Congo contribution to the Ethiopian population occurred mainly through females" (parenthesis added)
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Oh. So you didn't even read the Pagani snippets I posted. Since you act like I made it up and it's not in Pagani, go read the article. I'm surprised you ain't even read the article yet deny it. Lol
I'm ignoring your 'ignore everything published since 2012' strawman. Who but a debate loser construes 107 later researchers as stuck in 2012? You're better off checking them for any possible contrary evidence as I suggested several posts ago.
I will not waste my time with strawmans I never posted but are lies attributed to me to win a debate rather than to learn more about Africa, her peoples cultures, and relationships to the folk right next door.
And we went over E-M215 E-M35 E-M123 years before you got here. It's no new revelation.
Debaters bullshitting tactics don't help anyone understand African population structure.
I think the real problem here is accepting African males getting up on non-African females instead of the Euro and Arab perception: Eurasian men walking in and taking Africa's womanhood.
OH this the Deshret forum. For serious discussion gotta take this to some other forum.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Am J Hum Genet. 2004 Nov; 75[5]: 752–770. Published online 2004 Sep 27. doi: 10.1086/425161 PMCID: PMC1182106 Ethiopian Mitochondrial DNA Heritage: Tracking Gene Flow Across and Around the Gate of Tears
Toomas Kivisild,
Haplogroup N Lineages in Ethiopians and Yemenis
Lineages that belong to haplogroup N that cover virtually all mtDNA sequences in western Eurasia [Richards et al. 2000] show substantial frequencies both in the Yemeni [44%] and Ethiopian [31%] mtDNA pools. In this respect, Ethiopians differ explicitly from most other sub-Saharan African populations studied thus far. Within Ethiopia, the frequency of N lineages is significantly higher [P<.05] in samples that originate from its northern territory [48%], which was the center of the Aksum kingdom, than among other Ethiopians, mostly originating from the south-central part of the country [27%]. At the same time, there was no significant difference in the proportions of haplogroup N between the Semitic and Cushitic linguistic groups in our sample—for example, between Amharas and Oromos.
Haplogroup [preHV]1 is by far the most frequent [10.4%] subclade in the Ethiopian N cluster [fig. 2B]. The majority of the Ethiopian [preHV]1 lineages match or derive from founder haplotypes common to Near Eastern, southern Caucasian, and North African populations [Krings et al. 1999; Metspalu et al. 1999; Richards et al. 2000; Kivisild et al. 2003b]. Previously, the highest frequency [20.4%] of [preHV]1 lineages was observed in Yemeni Jews [Richards et al. 2003], significantly higher than their frequency in our Yemeni non-Jewish sample [3.4%; P<.01]. This probably reflects strong genetic drift in the founding population of Yemeni Jews. Because [preHV]1 lineages occur in populations of the Near East, the Caucasus, and Mediterranean Europe—where African L0-L6 lineages are absent or rare—it is more likely that their presence in East Africa reflects a back-migration from the Near East rather than an in situ origin of [preHV]1 in Ethiopia [Richards et al. 2003]. Nevertheless, we notice that several Ethiopian [preHV]1 lineages, including [1] variants with a transversion at np 16305, [2] HVS-I motif 16126-16309-16362, and [3] HVS-I motif 16126-16172-16184A-16362, were not found in 185 [preHV]1 sequences sampled from >20,000 individuals from Arabia, the Near East, and Europe [Macaulay et al. 1999; Metspalu et al. 1999; Richards et al. 2000; authors' unpublished data], except for an HVS-I haplotype 16126-16305T-16362 that occurs [12.5%] in Ethiopian Jews [Thomas et al. 2002]. Their elevated frequency and uniform presence among major language groups in Ethiopia [table 1] suggests that these derived lineages may represent a relatively old introgression of lineages to the Ethiopian mtDNA pool from the Near East.
Haplogroup HV1 is represented in Ethiopians by two different HVS-I motifs [fig. 2B]. The first of them, 16067-16274, observed in an Amharan mtDNA, has been reported in populations from the Arabian Peninsula [Di Rienzo and Wilson 1991; Richards et al. 2000], southern Egypt, and northern Sudan [Krings et al. 1999]. The other four sequences, present in Tigrais and Oromos, share a common HVS-I motif, 16067-16278-16362, that has not yet been reported in the literature. Two Yemeni HV* samples belong to a cluster of sequences with the characteristic 16220C transversion, observed more frequently in the Caucasus and the Near East [Richards et al. 2000].
When the fact that haplogroup H is the predominant subclade of N in most western Eurasian populations is considered, its frequency in Ethiopians is surprisingly low [0.7%]. Among the three haplogroup H lineages found, one Tigrai carried a characteristic HVS-I transition at np 16218, which has been observed in haplogroup H lineages—mostly in those of Near Eastern origin, but also in two Yemeni H sequences and two Assiut sequences from Egypt [Krings et al. 1999; Richards et al. 2000].
Three of the five haplogroup J lineages in Ethiopians share a distinct HVS-I motif, 16069-16126-16193-16300-16309 [J1c], that is characteristic of J sequences in populations from the southern Caucasus, the Near East, and North Africa [Di Rienzo and Wilson 1991; Richards et al. 2000; Brakez et al. 2001; Maca-Meyer et al. 2001; Plaza et al. 2003]. In East Africa, J1c sequences have been found in one Datoga from Tanzania [Knight et al. 2003] and in one Gurna from Egypt [Stevanovitch et al. 2004]. The other two Ethiopian J sequences, present in Tigrais, belonged to a subclade of J2 that is defined by a transition at np 6671 [Herrnstadt et al. 2002]. Most of the Yemeni J sequences, in contrast, share the combination of 16145 and 16261 mutations in haplogroup J1b, which is a common motif of J lineages in populations from the Near East and all over western Eurasia [Richards et al. 2000].
All Ethiopian and Yemeni haplogroup T sequences clustered with either T1 or T2 subclades, consistent with the classification of all existing European T coding-region sequences [Ingman et al. 2000; McMahon et al. 2000; Finnilä et al. 2001; Herrnstadt et al. 2002; Coble et al. 2004]. One Amhara T sequence, however, which harbors a transition at np 14233, characteristic of T2 sequences, lacked the other substitution at np 11812, present in all other Ethiopian and European T2 sequences. The np 11812 substitution was similarly absent in a complete North African T sequence [Maca-Meyer et al. 2001]. The Tigrai T1a sequence matches a Kerma sequence from Nubia [Krings et al. 1999], whereas the Amhara T1b sequence shows a mutation at np 16320 on top of the common founder haplotype in the Near East [Richards et al. 2000]. Five of the six T2 sequences detected among Amhara and Tigrai samples shared a transition at np 16292 that is widespread in the haplogroup T context in Europe, the Near East, and North Africa. However, the two Tigrai T2 sequences share a combination of four downstream HVS-I mutations [fig. 2B] that have not been reported elsewhere.
N1a is a minor mtDNA haplogroup that has been observed at marginal frequencies in European, Near Eastern, and Indian populations [Mountain et al. 1995; Richards et al. 2000]. It occurs at a significant frequency in both Ethiopian and Yemeni populations. Six Ethiopian N1a lineages, restricted to Semitic-speaking subpopulations, show low haplotype diversity and include an exact HVS-I sequence match with a published N1a sequence from Egypt [Krings et al. 1999]. A related sequence, from southern Sudan [Krings et al. 1999], was misclassified as a member of the L1a clade [Salas et al. 2002]. Yemeni N1a sequences, on the other hand, display a high level of haplotype [h=0.89] and nucleotide [ρ=2.75±1] diversity, combined with the highest frequency [6.9%] of this haplogroup reported so far.
Nevertheless, a clear asymmetry between E3b1-M78 and J1-M267 chromosomes is seen—the former are rare or absent in southern Arabia, whereas the latter are relatively frequent. Hence, Ethiopians may have been recipients of the southern Arabian J1-M267 chromosomes but have not been efficient donors of the E3b1-M78 chromosomes to southern Arabia, although East Africans may have carried the latter to Egypt and, farther, to Europe via the Levantine corridor. Furthermore, as already mentioned above, there is a profound difference in J1-M267 frequencies between the Semitic-speaking Amharas, who probably arrived relatively recently from Arabia, and the Cushitic-speaking Oromos, among whom the frequency of J1-M267 chromosomes does not exceed 3% [Cruciani et al. 2004]. Relevant data for other Ethiopian populations and Yemenis are desired for further exploration of this line of arguments.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Oh. So you didn't even read the Pagani snippets I posted. Since you act like I made it up and it's not in Pagani, go read the article.
i did read the article, thanks. if it says anything about sex-biased admixture taking place 3000 years ago, please quote it. if you are attributing your own explanation of the uniparental frequencies to Pagani et al, you shouldn't.
i do read a lot of this shit you know, of course i read Pagani, and didn't pull the hypothesis out of my ass without thinking about it first. if it doesn't work out that's fine.
quote:You're better off checking them for any possible contrary evidence as I suggested several posts ago.
i wrote an entire post quoting one of those later papers that cites Pagani et al but disagrees with them, you want me to do it again so you can ignore it some more?
quote:I think the real problem here is accepting African males getting up on non-African females
lol projecting much? not *my* hang-up.
Natufians didn't get their E from Zeus in swan form, that would be those African males getting up on those non-African females. maybe it's especially upsetting if it happened in Ethiopia? Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Christopher Andrew Plaster The Centre for Genetic Anthropology Department of Genetics Evolution and Environment University College London
Variation in Y chromosome, mitochondrial DNA and labels of identity in Ethiopia
"N clade haplogroups were observed in the Amhara and the Afar at of 34% and 30% total frequencies respectively."
________________________
wikipedia:
The ancient Semitic-speaking Himyarites, who moved from Yemen into northern Ethiopia sometime before 500 BCE, are believed to have been ancestral to the Amhara. They intermarried with the earlier Cushitic-speaking settlers, and gradually spread into the region the Amhara presently inhabit.The Amhara are currently one of the two largest ethnic groups in Ethiopia, along with the Oromo. They are sometimes referred to as "Abyssinians", a broader term that also includes the Tigray people.
The Himyarite kings appear to have abandoned polytheism and converted to Judaism around the year 380, several decades after the conversion of the Ethiopian Kingdom of Aksum to Christianity (340).
Bronze statue of Dhamarʿalīy Yuhbabirr "King of Saba, Dhu Raydan, Hadhramawt and Yaman" (Himyarite Kingdom) 170-180 AD.
Along with the closely related Somali and other adjacent Afro-Asiatic-speaking Muslim peoples, the Afar are also associated with the medieval Adal Sultanate that controlled large parts of the northern Horn of Africa. During its existence, Adal had relations and engaged in trade with other polities in Northeast Africa, the Near East, Europe and South Asia. Many of the historic cities in the Horn region, such as Maduna, Abasa, Berbera, Zeila and Harar, flourished with courtyard houses, mosques, shrines, walled enclosures and cisterns during the kingdom's Golden Age.
The Empire of Aksum at its height extended across portions of present-day Eritrea, northern Ethiopia, Yemen, southern Saudi Arabia, northern Djibouti, and northern Sudan. The capital city of the empire was Aksum, now in northern Ethiopia.
Proto-Tigrayans and Proto-Amharas are believed to be the main ethnicity of the empire of Axum in the first millennium C.E. Their language, in form of Ge'ez, remained the language of later Ethiopian imperial court as well as the Eritrean and Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Capra You just proved you didn't read the Pagani quotes I posted. Go back and reread them. Still don't see it? Quote the post and I'll hi-lite for you.
Agreement with it got nothing to do with whether she wrote it.
Appreciate the contrary Hodgson. At last, something I asked for. Looks like you did wade through the 107 citers.
Weren't you paying attention? We did E-M215 E-M35 E-M78 E-M123 expansion and Ethiopia years ago already. Its only news to you.
Natufians are an African Mushabi Levant Qebbaran protoNeolithic mix just like posited on ES over a decade ago. I last brought it up here.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote: quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: -
The maternal ancestry of Ethiopians is similarly diverse. About half (52.2%) of Ethiopians belongs to mtdna Haplogroups L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5, or L6. These haplogroups are generally confined to the African continent. They also originated either in Ethiopia or very near. The other portion of the population belong to Haplogroup N (31%) and Haplogroup M1 (17%).[24] There is controversy surrounding their origins as either native or a possible ancient back migration into Ethiopia from Asia.
Passarino et al. 1998 suggested that: "Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males. ( YDNA J ) Conversely, the Niger–Congo contribution to the Ethiopian population occurred mainly through females" (parenthesis added)
Of course, all of this is Eurocentric nonsense--dressed up in phony pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo.
Genuine scientific theories are founded on terms that are precisely defined[ think, say, of the definition of "mass" in physics]. In this connection the term "caucasoid" is a nonsensical pseudo-scientific term concocted frivolously by a traipsing German MD by the name of Johann Blumenbach. Blumenbach stupidly assumed that the "perfect" skull of some individual found in the Caucasus mountains should sent some kind of standard for human "racial" classification. Sheer stupidity. Anyway, this kind of thinking was way back in the 18th century when it was assumed that malaria, for example, was caused by bad air.
Another example of palpable Eurocentric stupidity is the slick categorization of some languages as "Afro-Asiatic". Before the coinage of "Afro-Asiatic" there were the assumed to exist the distinct language classifications of "Hamitic" and "Semitic"--after the Biblical Ham and Shem. The language of the Ancient Egyptians was classified as Hamitic while Arabic was considered Semitic. In a slick Eurocentric move the 2 language groups were combined into Hamitico-Semitico then into "Afro-Asiatic".
The point is that with the discrediting of the Hamitic hypothesis, "Hamitic" should have become one of the language branches of Africa--in other words, Ancient Egyptian would have become just another African language but Eurocentrism would have none of that--hence the need to concoct the phony language grouping of "Afro-Asiatic". The usual "old wine in new bottles".
Time for a new paradigm shift that would conform better to reality. Just start with discarding the nonsense terms of "caucasoid" and "Afro-Asiatic".
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Whoa. You can't comprehend Pagani so I pulled a Clyde? If you're suggesting dishonesty on my part its time this discussion close. In over 13 years of contributions no one's ever said that because there's no examples of it and there's still no example of it.
quote:Originally posted by capra:
if you are attributing your own explanation of the uniparental frequencies to Pagani et al,
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
i don't know what i am even supposed to be looking for. which post?
not being psychic i don't know what conversation about M-215 which happened years ago that i wasn't part of you are referring to, so i don't know whether whatever you are talking about comes as a suprise to me or not. care to specify?
you are getting mad that i thought you might have accidentally read your own interpretation into a paper? right after implying i'm misinterpreting history because i have a problem with interracial sex? that's not cool buddy.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Lemme hafsum Smith & Cross and I'll get back to you. I will edit this post later.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: [QB]
quote: quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: -
The maternal ancestry of Ethiopians is similarly diverse. About half (52.2%) of Ethiopians belongs to mtdna Haplogroups L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5, or L6. These haplogroups are generally confined to the African continent. They also originated either in Ethiopia or very near. The other portion of the population belong to Haplogroup N (31%) and Haplogroup M1 (17%).[24] There is controversy surrounding their origins as either native or a possible ancient back migration into Ethiopia from Asia.
Passarino et al. 1998 suggested that: "Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males. ( YDNA J ) Conversely, the Niger–Congo contribution to the Ethiopian population occurred mainly through females" (parenthesis added)
Of course, all of this is Eurocentric nonsense--dressed up in phony pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo.
Genuine scientific theories are founded on terms that are precisely defined[ think, say, of the definition of "mass" in physics]. In this connection the term "caucasoid" is a
I didn't put that quote up for the term "caucasoid". I put it up because it said .... gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males.
They are saying most of the Eurasian gene flow occurred predominantly through males. That is haplogroup J of the Arabian peninsula and Levant. Recently analyzed 4,500 yo remains in Ethiopia know an as Mota Man carried E and L ancestry not J. That is suggestive that J came in later with trade and settlements along the coasts and then later the spread of Islam.
Nevertheless there is also a significant admixture of haplogroup N which is female at 31%. This is suggestive of a period when male East Africans were mixing with Arabian peninsula/Levantine females
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
LOL. So who are the Wolof, Bambara, Ibo, etc. admixed with? These phony and tendentious studies are carried out only for sly, racist Eurocentric reasons.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: LOL. So who are the Wolof, Bambara, Ibo, etc. admixed with? These phony and tendentious studies are carried out only for sly, racist Eurocentric reasons.
so you think it's a scam, there has been no admixture in Ethiopia?
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:so you think it's a scam, there has been no admixture in Ethiopia?
.
All groups/countries are admixed, so why the special attention to Ethiopia? Only for tendentiously Eurocentric reasons.
Where are the studies showing that the people of the Congo are admixed? Or Ghana or Chad, etc.?
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
"Admixture into and within Sub-Saharan Africa" covers a lot of Africa, including some people from Ghana, but not the Congos or Chad.
"Dispersals and genetic adaptation of Bantu-speaking populations in Africa and North America" is pretty good, but while it has dense sampling of Gabon and Cameroon, plus a few samples from Cote d'Ivoire, Benin, Angola, South Africa, Uganda, and the usual other places, the only Congolese are Mbuti Pygmies.
most Africans are not well-studied. for Ghana specifically there is a nice study on maternal and paternal lineages and clan histories in one village, "The influence of clan structure on the genetic variation in a single Ghanaian village", but that is about small-scale ancestral lineages.
for Chad, "Chad genetic diversity reveals an African history marked by multiple Holocene Eurasian migrations" as the title suggests has a lot of tendentious Eurocentric stuff but disappointingly little about anything else, the lazy bastards.
for the Congos, very little. i recall seeing a conference presentation abstract that involved a bunch of sampling in the DRC but whatever the project was it isn't published yet.
"Ancient west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa" is an older one for the tendentious Eurocentric view extended beyond the Horn.
of course the recent "Reconstructing prehistoric African population structure" is the good shit, with ancient South and East African cline, possible Basal Africans in West Africa, and Eurasian showing up in Tanzania 3100 years ago and South Africa 1200 years ago.
for Southern Africa there's lots, notably "Fine-scale human population structure in Southern Africa reflects ecogeographic boundaries", which is mostly about ancient structure in ancestral Khoesan. oh yeah, even better, "Complex ancient genetic structure and cultural transitions in Southern African populations".
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Am skeptical of concepts such as "Eurasian casually being used for African populations. Also skeptical about the pseudo-racial term "sub-Saharan Africa". I mean what exactly is the connection between the Wolofs of Senegal and the Swazis of Swaziland?
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
Sub-Saharan African isn't *supposed* to be a real racial term. genetically everyone else is just one sub-branch of Sub-Saharan Africans. it's just a term of convenience for "not descended from the population that left Africa". *not* a single branch opposed to non-Africans and not intended to be.
as Pickrell et al explain in "Ancient west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa":
quote:when we refer to “west Eurasian ancestry” in “southern Africa” we are using this as a shorthand for the more cumbersome, but more accurate, phrasing of “ancestry most closely related to populations currently living in west Eurasia” in “populations currently living in southern Africa.”
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
It's no different than the history of Africa. They divide it by Eurovision. Divisions of African History
Post/neo-Colonial era European exploration era Islamic era Roman era Semito-Hamite era
Geneticists are only continuing what their generations passed down to them. Their concern is with themselves in Africa. For the most part Africa as Africa dont move them much at all.
Hence the relentless focus on Eurasian genomes in Africa. I'm glad when they toss us some African genomes of Africa.
Sheet. It's their $$$. They can do what they wanna. But its a tad much screaming a people are admixed knowing it was a late conquest and settlement infusion.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Actually that is fine but we all know that Ethiopians, horners and other Africans first crossed the red sea coast into Arabia.
And we know that most Ethiopians and Horners are not in the least bit white. Some are lighter skinned and those folks are obviously of more recent mixture with outsiders. But overall from Southern Egypt to Kenya most Red Sea and other African populatons maintain a black phenotype. So whatever "Eurasian" mixture occurred it is purely semantic in the sense of labeling DNA strains. It isn't like East Africans or Horners really and truly are Eurasian in any sense of the term, neither are Sudanese or Nubians who have been in Africa for many many thousands of years since before there was a human in Eurasia.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Is there anyone on this forum who is a geneticist and done genetic studies themselves?
All i see on this thread is regurgitation of other geneticist.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:Actually that is fine but we all know that Ethiopians, horners and other Africans first crossed the red sea coast into Arabia.
And we know that most Ethiopians and Horners are not in the least bit white. Some are lighter skinned and those folks are obviously of more recent mixture with outsiders. But overall from Southern Egypt to Kenya most Red Sea and other African populatons maintain a black phenotype. So whatever "Eurasian" mixture occurred it is purely semantic in the sense of labeling DNA strains. It isn't like East Africans or Horners really and truly are Eurasian in any sense of the term, neither are Sudanese or Nubians who have been in Africa for many many thousands of years since before there was a human in Eurasia.
Language is of importance in all of this . It would be much more accurate to label the populations of West Asia of the Arabian peninsula as Afro-Asiatic but Eurocentric scholarship generally refer to them as "Arab" or "caucasoid". Instead that obviously tendentious scholarship is hell-bent on promoting an euphemistic version of the "Hamitic hypothesis".
In all of this we must note that "Semitic" as a language base has its origins in Ethiopia. This would mean that all the so-called Afro-Asiatic languages are really African languages. Eurocentric scholarship would have none of this however.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:Sub-Saharan African isn't *supposed* to be a real racial term. genetically everyone else is just one sub-branch of Sub-Saharan Africans. it's just a term of convenience for "not descended from the population that left Africa". *not* a single branch opposed to non-Africans and not intended to be.
Not really. "Sub-Saharan Africa" is simply a slick morphing of "Negro-Africa" into "Black-Africa" then into "Sub-Saharan Africa". Naive fools--unaware of the game being played--follow suit.
And what is so special about "leaving or not leaving Africa"? The single continent of Eurasia is closely conjoined to Africa. Humans migrating to all corners of Africa is just as significant as humans crossing over into Eurasia. The migrants had absolutely no idea of Africa and Eurasia. Note too that the idea of Europe as a continent derives merely from Eurocentric vanity.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
yes really, if we are talking about genetics, which we are.
you think otherwise produce facts and arguments.
Posted by Tyrannohotep (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra: Sub-Saharan African isn't *supposed* to be a real racial term. genetically everyone else is just one sub-branch of Sub-Saharan Africans. it's just a term of convenience for "not descended from the population that left Africa". *not* a single branch opposed to non-Africans and not intended to be.
That's almost how I've come to understand it too. Only difference is that I've seen posters here emphasize a distinction between sub-Saharans and certain North African populations who have been postulated to be neither sub-Saharan nor properly OOA. As in, people whose ancestors settled in North Africa before OOA, but nonetheless are genetically closer to OOA than are sub-Saharan populations (since OOA branched away from them). Would such people still qualify as "sub-Saharan" under your model?
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
probably wouldn't actually call them Sub-Saharan given the geography (dumb word considering the elevations) but it's the same idea.
i've proposed the term Para-Eurasian to refer to ancestry of the the near relatives of the Out-of-Africa population within Africa (in uniparental terms Y hg E and mt hg L3(xMN)), but whether ancient North Africans were part of this or not who knows. well probably at least a bit (E-M35). and then there's Basal Eurasian.
lot of stuff could be cleared up with some Palaeolithic North African DNA.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:yes really, if we are talking about genetics, which we are.
you think otherwise produce facts and arguments.
Didn't fully address the issue. The genomic approach is interesting but can obfuscate the real issue.
New Guineans, Fijians, Solomon Islanders and other Melanesians can land at the Nairobi airport and be taken for passengers coming in from other African countries but genomic analysis will show them to be distinct from the inhabitants of Africa.
The point is that genetic distance between groups only signifies time of separation--giving random mutations affecting the bases A, G, C, T, enough time to accumulate. What really counts though is the living human organism interacting with the environment--not the random shuffling of mutation bases.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
ok? if you want to make other definitions based on phenotype go for it.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
quote:Originally posted by capra: Sub-Saharan African isn't *supposed* to be a real racial term. genetically everyone else is just one sub-branch of Sub-Saharan Africans. it's just a term of convenience for "not descended from the population that left Africa". *not* a single branch opposed to non-Africans and not intended to be.
That's almost how I've come to understand it too. Only difference is that I've seen posters here emphasize a distinction between sub-Saharans and certain North African populations who have been postulated to be neither sub-Saharan nor properly OOA. As in, people whose ancestors settled in North Africa before OOA, but nonetheless are genetically closer to OOA than are sub-Saharan populations (since OOA branched away from them). Would such people still qualify as "sub-Saharan" under your model?
quote:Originally posted by capra: probably wouldn't actually call them Sub-Saharan given the geography (dumb word considering the elevations) but it's the same idea.
i've proposed the term Para-Eurasian to refer to ancestry of the the near relatives of the Out-of-Africa population within Africa (in uniparental terms Y hg E and mt hg L3(xMN)), but whether ancient North Africans were part of this or not who knows. well probably at least a bit (E-M35). and then there's Basal Eurasian.
lot of stuff could be cleared up with some Palaeolithic North African DNA.
How can youze guys go around renaming Africans in Africa after yourselves, Eurasians? That's attempted colonization of African prehistory.
See here. I don't care what they call this lake. We're here now and now it'll be Lake Victoria. Damn the natives.
Don't get tight. Fun is fun. Satire for a point.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
just wait till we finish the time machine! mwa ha ha
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
"How can youze guys go around renaming Africans in Africa after yourselves, Eurasians? That's attempted colonization of African prehistory."
HA! HA! Same Game, different name!.....
Posted by Egyptian_Dragoon85 (Member # 17953) on :
nubians original race are zimbabwe people
on ancient times,egyptians used to bring people from zimbabwe to work in agriculture
look at this image: zimbabwe people on top of boat
Also it is off topic this initial post on page 1 pertains to modern Nubians
"We estimate the admixture in in current-day Sudanese Arab populations to about 700 years ago, coinciding with the fall of Dongola in 1315/1316 AD, a wave of admixture that reached the Darfurian/Kordofanian populations some 400–200 years ago. In contrast to the northeastern populations, the current-day Nilotic populations from the south of the region display little or no admixture from Eurasian groups indicating long-term isolation and population continuity in these areas of northeast Africa." --lioness moderator
[ 22. March 2018, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^I don't think "Zimbabwe" existed during those days. So I am not sure where you got that theory from.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Yes and we already know what the population who carries the highest concentration of J1 look like
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Nubians are an admixed group with gene-flow from outside of Africa
Just like the Egyptians. Okay tell us something we don't know.
This admixture exposed years ago by studies showing Nubians to have significant frequencies of Y-DNA hg J just like other North Sudanese populations like Sudanese Arabs and Beja. Even Hassan et al. has confirmed this over and over again in previous papers.
Your point is? I hope you are not suggesting the modern Nubian gene pool reflects that of the ancient Nuians.
To everyone else without an agenda Ethio Helix has written good articles on the genetics of Nubians and their relation neighboring Africans. Here are a couple below:
quote:Originally posted by capra: Sub-Saharan African isn't *supposed* to be a real racial term. genetically everyone else is just one sub-branch of Sub-Saharan Africans. it's just a term of convenience for "not descended from the population that left Africa". *not* a single branch opposed to non-Africans and not intended to be.
That's almost how I've come to understand it too. Only difference is that I've seen posters here emphasize a distinction between sub-Saharans and certain North African populations who have been postulated to be neither sub-Saharan nor properly OOA. As in, people whose ancestors settled in North Africa before OOA, but nonetheless are genetically closer to OOA than are sub-Saharan populations (since OOA branched away from them). Would such people still qualify as "sub-Saharan" under your model?
quote:Originally posted by capra: probably wouldn't actually call them Sub-Saharan given the geography (dumb word considering the elevations) but it's the same idea.
i've proposed the term Para-Eurasian to refer to ancestry of the the near relatives of the Out-of-Africa population within Africa (in uniparental terms Y hg E and mt hg L3(xMN)), but whether ancient North Africans were part of this or not who knows. well probably at least a bit (E-M35). and then there's Basal Eurasian.
lot of stuff could be cleared up with some Palaeolithic North African DNA.
The problem is that "Sub Saharan" as used in modern science is used to mean "pure African" and North African genetically is used to mean "descended from Eurasian back migrants". It really is literally a reinforcement of the old "hamitic race" concept.
The people using Sub Saharan vs North African aren't using it to distinguish INDIGENOUS African DNA that is closer to OOA from INDIGENOUS African DNA that is not close to OOA. That is absolutely NOT how it is used in papers on DNA. It is used to distinguish INDIGENOUS AFRICAN DNA (Sub Saharan) from Non African DNA (North African).
The only MtDna Lineages identified as African happen to be associated with the L lineages. All others are assumed to be "Eurasian". And you have similar things on the Male DNA side. Hence the presence of U lineages is considered the unique DNA signature of "North Africa" and is assumed to be a Eurasian lineage.
If North African was truly linked to indigenous African lineages that were tied to OOA then U lineages wouldn't automatically be linked to "Eurasia".
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The problem is that "Sub Saharan" as used in modern science is used to mean "pure African" and North African genetically is used to mean "descended from Eurasian back migrants". It really is literally a reinforcement of the old "hamitic race" concept.
The haplogroup scientists call a North African marker is E-M81
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
If North African was truly linked to indigenous African lineages that were tied to OOA then U lineages wouldn't automatically be linked to "Eurasia".
Haplogroup U6 is common (with a prevalence of around 10%) in Northwest Africa (with a maximum of 29% in an Algerian Mozabites) and the Canary Islands (18% on average with a peak frequency of 50.1% in La Gomera). It is also found in the Iberian peninsula, where it has the highest diversity (10 out of 19 sublineages are only found in this region and not in Africa),
quote:Originally posted by lamin: [QB] Is Race a Social Construct?
Moroccans
How many would be considered black in the U.S?
People considered Black by Europeans in some countries include people most Americans would not consider Black, it's a social construct in part
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Is Race a Social Construct?
How many would be considered black in the U.S?
Look at each of these Algerian Mozabites closely
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Haplogroup U6 has nothing to do with skin color. The age of U6 is far older than "light skin" in Humans.
quote: Haplogroup U6 Projected frequencies for haplogroup U6 (top left) and several subclades.
Haplogroup U6 is dated to between 31,000 and 43,000 years ago by Behar et al. (2012). This is consistent with the discovery of basal U6* in a Romanian specimen of ancient DNA (Peștera Muierilor) dated to 35,000 years ago.[46] Hervella et al. (2016) take this find as evidence for Paleolithic back-migration of Homo sapiens from Eurasia into Africa. The discovery of basal U6* in ancient DNA contributed to setting back the estimated age of U6 to around 46,000 years ago.[47]
Light skin in North Africa is primarily due to mixture within the last 5,000 years not because of "U6".
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:People considered Black by Europeans in some countries include people most Americans would not consider Black, it's a social construct in part
It's the other way round. Even though it's racist hypodescent principle, the 1/32 one drop rule still holds for Americans.
That is ridiculous, there is no such rule in place. 1/32 is about 3% If a white European was 3% African you would not even be able to tell it by looking
If there was such a rule still in place it would be stupid. If someone was 75% European and 20% African
They would be European with some admixture of African. That is exactly why such a rule saying otherwise is a social construct.
Americans don't have genetic testing kits they walk around with. They just take a look at a person and form an opinion and if you do that often you turn out to be wrong according to science
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] Haplogroup U6 has nothing to do with skin color. The age of U6 is far older than "light skin" in Humans.
skin color has nothing to do with whether or not U6 originated in Africa or outside of Africa
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:That is ridiculous, there is no such rule in place.
African genes in the old days were seen as very toxic in a society supposedly founded on the principle of "racial purity" for the dominant caste.
The fear was that only at the great-great-grandfather level, genes for the generic African phenotype would have become so recessive that subsequent offspring would show no such traits. To put it colloquially, "hair, lips, and nose" were the triple test visually applied.
Rules are made to be broken--hence the "passing" phenomenon, peculiar to historic American society. There are anecdotes in this regard of "passers" passing[no pun intended] members of their extended family in the street with no greetings exchanged.
For Native Americans, the official--meaning that one can belong to a Native American ethnic group and live on a Reservation--"blood quantum" is 1/16.
That is why when one visits a Native American Reservation one often sees people with blue eyes and brown hair.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:1/32 is about 3%
No, it's about 6%.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
quote:1/32 is about 3%
No, it's about 6%.
stop playin
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
quote:People considered Black by Europeans in some countries include people most Americans would not consider Black, it's a social construct in part
It's the other way round. Even though it's racist hypodescent principle, the 1/32 one drop rule still holds for Americans.
That is ridiculous, there is no such rule in place. 1/32 is about 3% If a white European was 3% African you would not even be able to tell it by looking
If there was such a rule still in place it would be stupid. If someone was 75% European and 20% African
They would be European with some admixture of African.
So looks are the end-all? If hypothetically a European with 3%-20% looked like they were African American, what would be their race?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Is Race a Social Construct?
How many would be considered black in the U.S?
Look at each of these Algerian Mozabites closely
They would confuse many of them being Latino (Mexican) or racially ambiguous / light skinned black.
Let's reverse the question, how many of them would be considered white (not one paper, but by first time unknown encounter).
quote:Originally posted by lamin: [QB] Is Race a Social Construct?
Moroccans
How many would be considered black in the U.S?
People considered Black by Europeans in some countries include people most Americans would not consider Black, it's a social construct in part
The people shown in those pictures would be considered black in America. This is in historical context and in modern day terms. Whites would confuse them for being biracial-black and some blacks would call them racially ambiguous. or red-boned. Throughout American history people with their phenotype and complexion have been considered black. That is the reality of America. A lot of Black Americans compare 2018 to 1918.
Arise America: "Little White Lie" Explores Racial Identity
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The problem is that "Sub Saharan" as used in modern science is used to mean "pure African" and North African genetically is used to mean "descended from Eurasian back migrants". It really is literally a reinforcement of the old "hamitic race" concept.
The haplogroup scientists call a North African marker is E-M81
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
If North African was truly linked to indigenous African lineages that were tied to OOA then U lineages wouldn't automatically be linked to "Eurasia".
Haplogroup U6 is common (with a prevalence of around 10%) in Northwest Africa (with a maximum of 29% in an Algerian Mozabites) and the Canary Islands (18% on average with a peak frequency of 50.1% in La Gomera). It is also found in the Iberian peninsula, where it has the highest diversity (10 out of 19 sublineages are only found in this region and not in Africa),
The estimated entrance of the North African U6 lineages into Iberia at 10 ky correlates well with other L African clades, indicating that U6 and some L lineages moved together from Africa to Iberia in the Early Holocene.
The HVS-I sequence compilation (range 16,051–16,400 of rCRS, [61]) comprised 317 U6 sequences, 361 from M1 and 2,983 from certain L sub-haplogroups (L1b, L2a, L2b, L3b, L3d, L3f, L3h1b). All populations considered in this database have a sample size ≥50.
—Candela L. Hernández et al.
Early Holocenic and Historic mtDNA African Signatures in the Iberian Peninsula: The Andalusian Region as a Paradigm
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The haplogroup scientists call a North African marker is E-M81
North African marker?
That is not true, they refer to it as the Berber-marker (north-West African).
quote:The presence and frequency in the region of E-M81, commonly referred to as the " Berber marker "
[…]
The distribution of E-M81 haplogroup, a Berber marker, was found at a frequency of 3% in our sample.
—B. Ambrosio,et al.
The Andalusian population from Huelva reveals a high diversification of Y-DNA paternal lineages from haplogroup E: Identifying human male movements within the Mediterranean space
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: So looks are the end-all? If hypothetically a European with 3%-20% looked like they were African American, what would be their race?
Yes, looks are the end all unless in the future as more people get their DNA genetics become more prominent. Would you pick the "ugly" girl on a dating website who had a great written profile?
Ironically the one drop rule designed to discourage miscegenation a lot of black people like because it adds numbers to the black population and as a "minority" in America that translates to power. The census allows people to self identify. So if the person in your hypothetical self identified as "black" and people perceive a political win related to "black interest" then that would add to a vote for a person claiming to represent such interest
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
Yea but you say "Americans don't have genetic testing kits they walk around with." So even if genetics become more prominent, it won't change how a person's race is judged against how they look. Ok well unless everyone wears their DNA results on them always.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Yea but you say "Americans don't have genetic testing kits they walk around with." So even if genetics become more prominent, it won't change how a person's race is judged against how they look. Ok well unless everyone wears their DNA results on them always.
Potentially what may happen is that when many more people get genetic testing they will make less assumption based on looks because they will know there is this genetic information also
So in five or ten years from now somebody says "what is she?" And then someone answers, " she showed me her DNA ancestry on her phone she's......."
Already there is a whole youtube culture, on the internet of "black" American saying they are not African they are indigenous Americans (see Dane Calloway, etc) that is not about genetics at this point but it shows that people are now making speculations alternative to the typical assumptions about looks
So similarly with genetics and people making videos on youtube revealing their ancestry results often surprising. So all of this is leading ( slowly) to people not making as many assumptions based on looks alone
On the downside there is a potential for prejudicial views based on genetic profiling
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
Most people who are subconsciously or consciously classifying another person into a racial group don't have a personal relationship to that person to where that'd be at all appropriate to ask, even if becomes possible. Imagine the immense headache it'd be if everyone classifying hundreds of people into racial groups within the recesses of their mind (in seconds) then decided to spend minutes or hours introducing themselves to start asking for DNA diagrams. It's not practical to do. Yes genetic data will be out there to challenge assumptions, but when time and money ride on keeping things simple and easy to follow (race=appearance) over asking people you meet about their DNA, nothing's going to change even if it's a lie. Even if you want to believe all races have common DNA among themselves, society is lacks a practical way to support social groupings along that belief system. And even in history when the ancestry was widely known of a person, people will still revert to the simplicity of sight based systems. An Adamanese is not going to be paired with Asians over Sub Saharan Africans if they were to walk down the street.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Imagine the immense headache it'd be if everyone classifying hundreds of people into racial groups within the recesses of their mind (in seconds) then decided to spend minutes or hours introducing themselves to start asking for DNA diagrams. It's not practical to do.
People in casual conversation don't have to go into high detail on their genetic background
If you have your DNA results you can also summarize them
Here the woman before her test estimates
" I am black and white, English , German and maybe Native American"
Then she reads the results
19% Cameroon/Congo 8% Benin / Togo
14% Western Europe 20% Great Britain 8% Eastern Europe
3% West Asia 2% Middle East 1% Caucaus
"In Total I'm I'm 44% African 53% European 3% West Asian" 0% Native American
....Before I was just black and white"
_____________________________
So before her answer was "I'm black and white" or "mixed"
Now she can say
"I'm mainly a mix of West African, mostly Cameroon and Congo and also European, mainly British but some Eastern European as well. There are some other things in my background also but under 3%, like Middle Eastern and Central; Asian but no Native American"
This is similar to what people in other parts of the world might answer even without a genetic test.
But in America many people like classification by skin color instead. That is more politically motivated
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
She can say it, I'm not denying that. But most people around her are not going to ask for her to tell them anything. The whole idea of making race about how people look is that people can classify one another in split seconds. It makes it possible to evaluate hundreds of people quickly. Imagine having that conversation you suggested with hundreds if not thousands of people in a day. Everyday. It's not realistic, so it's not going to change the standard practice. And this isn't just w/ the U.S either. Definitions for what features mean may vary a bit across countries, but the idea that features communicate race extends out of the U.S...
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: She can say it, I'm not denying that. But most people around her are not going to ask for her to tell them anything. The whole idea of making race about how people look is that people can classify one another in split seconds. Imagine having that conversation with hundreds of people in a day. It's not realistic, so it's not going to change the standard practice. And this isn't just w/ the U.S either. Definitions for what features mean may vary a bit across countries, but the idea that features communicate race extends out of the U.S...
so how many races do you like to classify people with?
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
LOL. Most of these ancestry tests are just. money-grabbing hoaxes.
One could go to any part of Africa and find nuclear DNA with matches on all other continents. The most reliable of indices of DNA analysis would be the Y and Mt DNA linkages--because they give a timeline of separation from one haplogroup to others--based purely on the mutational arrangements of the bases ACGT.
The irony in all of this is that anthropologists such as Cavalli-Sforza Europeans are 35% African in genotype and are closer to Africans than are Africans to Australian Aboriginese. Does that make sense? One must ponder this. yet the Melanesians of the Pacific area are strictly African in phenotype despite haplogroup differences.
Yet what really counts in the final analysis is the phenotype. Changes there are due to the organism interacting with its total environment. DNA changes as per mutational shufflings of the ACGT bases would seem to be purely accidental.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: anthropologists such as Cavalli-Sforza Europeans are 35% African in genotype
based on what?
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:based on what?
Do keep up with the varied research on this topic. European researchers tend to be coy and hesitant to admit this given their conscious and unconscious racial biases--but approximately 1/3 of the European genome derives from Africa and 2/3 from Asia.
The irony in all of this is that anthropologists such as Cavalli-Sforza Europeans are 35% African in genotype and are closer to Africans than are Africans to Australian Aboriginese. Does that make sense? One must ponder this. yet the Melanesians of the Pacific area are strictly African in phenotype despite haplogroup differences.
so then what is the 1/3 African haplogroup correspondence that Europeans have?
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
It would be autosomal--not necessarily haplogroup correspondence. Though E, R, and J are found both in Africa and Europe.
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: She can say it, I'm not denying that. But most people around her are not going to ask for her to tell them anything. The whole idea of making race about how people look is that people can classify one another in split seconds. Imagine having that conversation with hundreds of people in a day. It's not realistic, so it's not going to change the standard practice. And this isn't just w/ the U.S either. Definitions for what features mean may vary a bit across countries, but the idea that features communicate race extends out of the U.S...
so how many races do you like to classify people with?
I wasn't trying to discuss what races and how many should exist right now. Just that trying to use genetic data on hand as an alternative wouldn't work to the present sight based model.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Oshun:
I wasn't trying to discuss what races and how many should exist right now. Just that trying to use genetic data on hand as an alternative wouldn't work to the present sight based model.
So if somebody asked this guy "what are you ?" and he said "Moroccan and Spanish"
what would his answer be according to the sight based model?
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
Brown at the very least. He would not pass as white.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Brown at the very least. He would not pass as white.
So you think this guy calling himself "brown" which people almost never do in America is the better option than saying he's "Moroccan and Spanish"
__________________________________________________what about this guy on the right? what do you call him?
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
Brown is used in America. It's often used to describe Latino and/or Arab peoples.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
what is the person on the right according to " the present sight based model"
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
Edit: Yellow. Few use that term officially, but if we're talking about how he's going to be judged in the backs of people's heads he's not going to be typed the same race as many Negritos (who're also from Asia).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
this is pointless
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Imagine the immense headache it'd be if everyone classifying hundreds of people into racial groups within the recesses of their mind (in seconds) then decided to spend minutes or hours introducing themselves to start asking for DNA diagrams. It's not practical to do.
People in casual conversation don't have to go into high detail on their genetic background
If you have your DNA results you can also summarize them
Here the woman before her test estimates
" I am black and white, English , German and maybe Native American"
Then she reads the results
19% Cameroon/Congo 8% Benin / Togo
14% Western Europe 20% Great Britain 8% Eastern Europe
3% West Asia 2% Middle East 1% Caucaus
"In Total I'm I'm 44% African 53% European 3% West Asian" 0% Native American
....Before I was just black and white"
_____________________________
So before her answer was "I'm black and white" or "mixed"
Now she can say
"I'm mainly a mix of West African, mostly Cameroon and Congo and also European, mainly British but some Eastern European as well. There are some other things in my background also but under 3%, like Middle Eastern and Central; Asian but no Native American"
This is similar to what people in other parts of the world might answer even without a genetic test.
But in America many people like classification by skin color instead. That is more politically motivated
People always should do a few tests, be the same company and different companies. We have seen different results popping up. Based on the type of test and the time of the test.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Brown is used in America. It's often used to describe Latino and/or Arab peoples.
True, a few years back there was a Moroccan tv personality (Salaheddine) who went to NY, did a survey by asking people: “from where do you think I am”. Black Americans considered him Black, some guessed right meaning Northwest Africa, some said Latin America. However, most whites guessed Middle Eastern or Latin America.
quote: When i look up current info for modern nubians they will mention nubians in egypt,sudan,hill nubians,nubians of darfur etc..
When looking at the dna info for modern nubians later on the study on wiki is really talking about nile valley nubians in the sudan on the nile.
Here some examples.
quote:
Genetics Y-DNA
Y-DNA analysis by Hassan et al. (2008) on a sample of 39 Nubians found that: Around 17 of his Nubian samples from Sudan carried haplogroup J 9 belonged to the haplogroup E1b1b clade
M-DNA Regarding the M-DNA lineages, Hassan (2009) found that approximately 83% of their Nubian samples carried various subclades of the Africa-centered macrohaplogroup L. Of these, the most frequent were:
quote: So this study above is not talking about hill nubians,nubians of darfur,nubians in chad or near the chad border or even nubians in kenya and uganda or arabized hill nubians and arabized darfur nubians.
So you have to be careful reading that info because it's misleading. For nubians and arabized nubians outside the nile valley sudan and to have get the dna info for nubians in egypt,kenya,uganda,darfur,chad,noba hills etc...
Someone needs to do a edit and make it clear for the nubians wiki page that the dna study is not for other modern nubians outside the nile valley sudan.
For example i do not see this info at all for hill nubians.
Hill Nubians and others.(Central sudan)
quote: (Nilo-Saharan, Eastern Sudanic) 46 % A3b2-M13 - Nilotic 14.2% B-M60 - Nilotic 14.2% E1b1b-M215(xE1b1b1a-M7.8. - North East Africa 25 % E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa
For hill nubians i will have look for info for the noba hills for example.
Another point most arab sudanese do have admixture but here is something else that is misleading.The study for arabs in the sudan is including brown and white ones and they are large number in the sudan or arabs who are from sudan. If you take out the black arabs and only focus on black arabs of sudan then most do not have arab dna or other race admixture. Keep in mind when arab dna is talked about for sudanese arabs that study often is talking about brown and white ones as well.
Note- Changing the subject here. In real life Huge numbers of White americans( hispanic whites and non hispanics) have modern native and black ancestry but that's not talk about as often. I think i read something recently saying it's the majority of white americans. If not then a large minority of white americans,but i think it's majority from new recent reports.
Looking at recent dna for white afrikaners from south africa,all of them have other race admixture.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Modern nubians census update. 2,585,700 nubians.
Egypt
quote: Nile nubians Nubian, Arabized Population 553,000 Nubian, Fedicca-Mohas Population 458,000 Nubian, Kunuz Population 55,000
Sudan
quote: Nile nubians Dongolawi Population 78,000 Nubian, Fedicca-Mohas Population 569,000
Darfur nubians Midobi Population 92,500 Birgid Population 27,000
Hill nubians Uncu, Ghulfan Population 41,000 Kadaru Population 30,000 Dair, Thaminyi Population 3,000 Delen, Warki Population 13,000 Garko Population 33,000 Wali Population 19,000 El Hugeirat Population 3,200
Debri, Wei Population 2,500 Jebel Debri, located south of the Ghulfan Massif
Other Afitti, Ditti Population 5,100
Arabized nubians Darfur nubians Birgid, Arabized Population 167,000 Midob, Tidda Arabized Population 100,000
Hill nubians Ghulfan, Arabized Population 51,000 Dilling, Arabized Population 86,000 Kadaru, Arabized Population 54,000 Karko, Arabized Population 28,000 Wali, Arabized 59,000
Kenya; Uganda
quote: Nubi Population: 58,500
Note-there are more nubians in the sudan then egypt and most nubians in the sudan are not nile valley ones.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Most modern nubians or most modern BLACK nubians do not have other race admixture as well. Note- The reason i say modern black nubians is because there are some modern black nubians who are not black. Most are black however.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Edited above/added info.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Most of these groups that are lumped together as "Nubians" are not related at all and this whole idea of them being a single ethnic group is nonsense.
Beja are an ethnic group to themselves.
"Nubians" from Aswan are an ethnic group to themselves.
Dinka are an ethnic group to themselves.
Nuba are an ethnic group to themselves.
They are not a single ethnic group and they don't even look the same. This is the problem. The diversity in Africa is huge and the number of ethnic groups and languages is huge. That is part of the problem with lack of unity across Africa.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Nubians
quote: Nubians (/ˈnuːbiənz, ˈnjuː-/) are an ethno-linguistic group of people who are indigenous to the region which is now present-day Northern Sudan and southern Egypt. They originate from the early inhabitants of the central Nile valley, believed to be one of the earliest cradles of civilization. They speak Nubian languages, part of the Northern Eastern Sudanic languages.
Language Modern Nubians speak Nubian languages. They belong to the Eastern Sudanic branch of the Nilo-Saharan phylum. But there is some uncertainty regarding the classification of the languages spoken in Nubia in antiquity. There is some evidence that Cushitic languages were spoken in parts of Lower (northern) Nubia, an ancient region which straddles present day Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan, and that Eastern Sudanic languages were spoken in Upper and Central Nubia, before the spread of Eastern Sudanic languages even further north into Lower Nubia.
Culture Nubians have developed a common identity, which has been celebrated in poetry, novels, music and storytelling.
Nubian languages
quote: The Nubian languages (Arabic: لغات نوبية : lughāt nūbiyyah) are a group of related languages spoken by the Nubians. They form a branch of the Eastern Sudanic languages, which is part of the wider Nilo-Saharan phylum. Initially, Nubian languages were spoken throughout much of Sudan, but as a result of arabization they are today mostly limited to the Nile Valley between Aswan (southern Egypt) and Al Dabbah as well as villages in the Nuba mountains and Darfur.
Languages
quote: Rilly (2010) distinguishes the following Nubian languages, spoken by in total about 900,000 speakers: Nobiin, the largest Nubian language with 545,000 speakers in Egypt, Sudan, and the Nubian diaspora. Previously known by the geographic terms Mahas and Fadicca/Fiadicca. As late as 1863 this language, or a closely related dialect, was known to have been spoken by the arabized Nubian Shaigiya tribe.
Kenzi (endonym: Mattokki) with 100,000 speakers in Egypt and Dongolawi (endonym: Andaandi) with 180,000 speakers in Sudan. They are no longer considered a single language, but closely related. The split between Kenzi and Dongolawi is dated relatively recently to the 14th century.
Midob (Meidob) with 30,000 speakers. The language is spoken primarily in and around the Malha volcanic crater in North Darfur.
Birgid, now extinct, was spoken north of Nyala around Menawashei, with the last known speakers alive in the 1970s. It was the predominant language between the corridor of Nyala and al-Fashir in the north and the Bahr al-Arab in the south as recently as 1860.
Hill Nubian or Kordofan Nubian, a group of closely related languages or dialects spoken in various villages in the northern Nuba Mountains; in particular by the Dilling, Debri, and Kadaru. An extinct language, Haraza, is known only from a few dozen words recalled by village elders in 1923.
Classification
quote: Traditionally, the Nubian languages are divided into three branches: Northern (Nile), Western (Darfur), and Central.
Hill Nubians
quote: Hill Nubians are a group of Nubian peoples who inhabit the northern Nuba Mountains in South Kordofan state, Sudan. They speak the Hill Nubian languages. Despite their scattered presence and linguistic diversity, they all refer to themselves as Ajang and call their language Ajangwe, "the Ajang language".
Origin Canadian linguist Robin Thelwall believes that the Hill Nubians probably didn't migrate to the Nuba Mountains from Nubia, considering their linguistic divergence, and instead probably reached the Nuba Mountains from central Kordofan during the earliest Nubian migrations.Joseph Greenberg believes that any split between Hill and Nile Nubian must have occurred at least 2,500 years before present.
Hill Nubian languages
quote: The Hill Nubian languages, also called Kordofan Nubian, are a dialect continuum of Nubian languages spoken by the Hill Nubians in the northern Nuba Mountains of Sudan.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
I look up this group below and they are not modern day nubians ethnically but the others listed above are. Afitti, Ditti Population 5,100
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Basically from a genetics perspective we just need a coherent set of DNA samples from across the Nile Valley as "Africans" going back 20,000 years. The data from that would give a better understanding of population structure as opposed to "Nubians" or "Egyptians" because those are modern entities. Just like European ancient DNA studies don't even talk about modern structures such as "France" or "Britain".
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: These unafrican Sudanese Nubians are going full Kemet/Nubia lol good vid great music, they look like average AA's with varying degrees of admixture maybe a lil horner but not much.
I was looking at some threads dealing with that nubian dna study. I just read what you posted above and while i think i might have read it before i don't think i paid enough attention to what you said at the time,so me let deal with this now.
I can't see the pic clearly but are you saying those nubians above look like west africans?
Most african americans don't look like they have any admixture and most don't look like horners.
If you are saying those nubians in the pic look like horners then they don't look like the average african american or west african.
By the way you could find all types of african looks in west africa and in fact west africa have the most diverse black african looks of any african region. Plus it has the largest population of any african region.
quote: Africans vary from all types of looks.In africa you could see africans(depending on the ethnic group and individuals) that look like african americans.I should say african americans look like the africans they come from.
quote: The Danagla (Arabic: الدناقلة, "People of Dongola") are a tribe in northern Sudan of partial Arab descent,[1][2][3] primarily settling between the third Nile cataract and al Dabbah. Along with Kenzi, Fadicca, Halfawi, Sikot, and Mahas, they form a significant part of the Sudanese Arabs. In addition, they have historically lived in proximity to their Shaigiya and Ja'alin neighbors. They speak Sudanese Arabic, although the Nubian language of Dongolawi was spoken in northern Sudan.[4] It is still spoken by a minority of the population[5] alongside the Sudanese Arabic dialect.
Genetics According to Y-DNA analysis by Hassan et al (2008), around 44% of Nubians and Danaglas generally in Sudan carry the haplogroup J in individually varied but rather small percentages. The remainder mainly belong to the E1b1b clade (23%). Both paternal lineages are also common among local Afroasiatic-speaking populations.[6]
Thus it's observed that approximately 83% of their Nubian samples carried various subclades of the Africa-centered macrohaplogroup L. Of these mtDNA lineages, the most frequently borne clade was L3 (30.8%), followed by the L0a (20.6%), L2 (10.3%), L1 (6.9%), L4 (6.9%) and L5 (6.9%) haplogroups. The remaining 17% of Nubians belonged to sublineages of the Eurasian macrohaplogroups M (3.4% M/D, 3.4% M1) and N (3.4% N1a, 3.4% preHV1, 3.4% R/U6a1). These results can be used as rough estimates of genetics most Nubians hold.[citation needed]
Mahas
quote: The Mahas are a sub-group of the Nubian people located in Sudan along the banks of the Nile. They are further split into the Mahas of the North and Mahas of the Center. Some Mahas villages are intermixed with remnants of the largely extinct Qamhat Bishari tribe, and as a result today the Qamhat Mahas are ethnic Beja who speak a Nubian language. In the Butana area some Mahas have intermarried with the Rashaida people.
For millennia, the Mahas tribe had resided in the region that constitutes present day north Sudan.[1] Little arable land and finite rainfall lead the Mahas, and other residents of the area, to migrate from the area.[1] As early as the late 1400s to the early 1500s, following the end of the Mamluke Sultanate in Egypt and the Christian kingdom in Nubia, the Mahas ethnic group began to migrate.[1] The Mahas migrants settled in the “Three Towns” area, the present-day cities of Khartoum, Khartoum North, and Omdurman, and along the Blue Nile.[1] Arkell insinuates that the Mahas acquired land in the “Three Towns” area and Tuti Island from the Jummu’iya tribe.[2] When the Mahas had arrived, the area was already inhabited by the Rufa’a, Ja’aliyin, Shayqia, and Jummu’iya peoples.[2]
The Mahas in the “Three Towns” are largely from Nubian descent.[1] Lobban argues that they are of the completely Arabized Nubians.[1] The Mahas of this stock do not maintain strong ties with the Nubians in the north and east.[1] They know little of the Nubian language.[1] Inhabiting the north of Sudan and south of Egypt at a time when Islam was expanding south up the Nile, the Mahas of this group were Arabized relatively early.[1] As Mahas families became established in the Three Towns, they were almost exclusively of Mahas descent.[1] The Three Towns area was composed of Nubian, Arab, Sudanic, Nilotic, and European groups.[1] However, within the Mahas communities, there was a strong inclination for preserving the Mahas lineage.[1] Marriage was predominately between the Arab communities in the Nile valley.[1] It was rare to encounter marriages between the Mahas communities and the Sudanese Darfuris and southern regions of present-day Sudan.[1] The emphasis of cultural homogeneity within the Mahas communities was strengthened with Islamic values at that time that perpetuated egalitarianism.[1]
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Here is some recent talk about the kulubnarti nubians,nubia,sudan,egypt etc..
PCMA Seminar 3 Life in Ancient Nubia - Bioarchaeological Perspectives May 25, 2023 The “Life in Ancient Nubia: Bioarchaeological Perspectives” speaker series presents a range of bioarchaeological perspectives on life in ancient and medieval Nubia. Day 3: “Palaeogenomic Perspectives”, May 24h, 2023
quote: Abagail Breidenstein, Binghamton University: Abstract: “Recent advances in next-generation sequencing (NGS) methods have facilitated paleogenomic studies of hot and arid climates. Nonetheless, archaeological conditions continue to impact ancient DNA quality and quantity. Therefore, it is critical to assess the impact of archaeological conditions and to develop enhanced methodologies that boost the authentic DNA content of sampled tissues. To develop best practices for compromised skeletal remains, we assessed a standard overnight digestion, a double digestion, and bleach pretreatment methods with more than 240 individual skeletal samples representing 89 individuals spanning eight Nubian archaeological sites located in modern day Sudan, a historically important but paleogenomically understudied region of the Ancient Nile River Valley, spanning ca. 2,200 years. This presentation will discuss our results and future research into optimizing the use of NGS methods with African sample material.”
Mary Prendergast, Rice University: “Tracing the roots of ancient eastern pastoralism with ancient DNA: progress and prospects” Abstract: “Human ancient DNA studies have rapidly multiplied in eastern Africa. By considering their results together with those from human and animal population genetics, archaeology, and linguistics, we can offer wider perspectives on the spread of pastoralism. Genetic research indicates that Nubia was an area from which pastoralism spread toward the Eastern Rift Valley, but key gaps obscure archaeologists’ understanding of connections – or lack thereof – between these regions. How can future archaeological and genetic research address these gaps? Are there prospects for holistic studies that also incorporate nonhuman DNA to understand early pastoral lifeways? This talk will highlight past work and invite discussion of future agendas.”
Kendra Sirak, Harvard University: “Leveraging genome-wide ancient DNA data to explore Sudanese population history: Kulubnarti as a case study” Abstract: “Abstract: Studying genome-level DNA from people who lived hundreds to thousands of years ago can reveal genetic landscapes that are drastically different than today. This is especially true in places like Sudan, where extensive movements of people during the last millennium have resulted in both cultural and genetic changes. We generated genome-wide data from 66 people who lived at Kulubnarti between ~650-1000CE and reveal a gene pool formed over at least a millennium that had both Nilotic-related and non-sub-Saharan African ancestry. Interpreting genetic data alongside archaeological and bioarchaeological data, we show that genetic similarity among people buried in two cemeteries supports a hypothesis of social division without genetic differences.”
Wirtualna Nubia: klasztory w Ghazali i Dongoli / Virtual Nubia: Monasteries in Ghazali and Dongola PCMA UW
quote: This virtual tour presents the monasteries in Ghazali and in Old Dongola, the capital of Makuria, one of three medieval kingdoms in ancient Nubia. They were digitally reconstructed as part of the “Virtual Nubia” project. On the project website, www.virtualnubia.uw.edu.pl you can visit monastic buildings discovered by archaeologists in the Nubian desert - a land located in the Middle Nile Valley on the territory of modern Sudan and Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: Huge numbers of White americans( hispanic whites and non hispanics) have modern native and black ancestry
quote:Originally posted by Firewall:
Most african americans don't look like they have any admixture and most don't look like horners.
Do most African Americans have non-African admixture?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: there are some modern black nubians who are not black.
what do you mean?
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: there are some modern black nubians who are not black.
what do you mean?
Some modern nubians don't look black,that's what i mean. Some are brown and white,but most are still black.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: Huge numbers of White americans( hispanic whites and non hispanics) have modern native and black ancestry
quote:Originally posted by Firewall:
Most african americans don't look like they have any admixture and most don't look like horners.
Do most African Americans have non-African admixture?
If the average african american look like horners like that poster says then those pseudo scientist of the past would be calling them caucasoids or dark/black caucasoids like they did to horners.
The point is even if most african americans had some form of outside race admixture or not the average african american like the average west african(where african americans get their phenotypes from) do not look like horners and i will leave it at that.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Lioness, please
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Sudanese Arabs
quote: Sudanese Arabs (Arabic: عرب سودانيون) are the inhabitants of Sudan who identify as Arabs and speak Arabic as their mother tongue.[5] Some of them are descendants of Arabs who migrated to Sudan from the Arabian Peninsula,[6] although the rest have been described as Arabized indigenous peoples of Sudan of mostly Nubian,[7] Nilo-Saharan, and Cushitic[8] ancestry who are culturally and linguistically Arab, with varying cases of admixture from Peninsular Arabs.[9] This admixture is thought to derive mostly from the migration of Peninsular Arab tribes in the 12th century, who intermarried with the Nubians and other indigenous populations, as well as introducing Islam.[10][11] The Sudanese Arabs were described as a "hybrid of Arab and indigenous blood",[12] and the Arabic they spoke was reported as "a pure but archaic Arabic".[13] Burckhardt noted that the Ja'alin of the Eastern Desert are exactly like the Bedouin of Eastern Arabia.[14]
Sudanese Arabs make up 70% of the population of Sudan,[15] however prior to the independence of South Sudan in 2011, Sudanese Arabs made up only 40% of the population.[16] They are Sunni Muslims and speak Sudanese Arabic. The great majority of the Sudanese Arabs tribes are part of larger tribal confederations: the Ja'alin, who primarily live along the Nile river basin between Khartoum and Abu Hamad, the Shaigiya, who live along the Nile between Korti and Jabal al-Dajer, and parts of the Bayuda Desert, the Juhaynah, who live east and west of the Nile, and include the Rufaa people, the Shukria clan and the Kababish, the Banu Fazara or Fezara people who live in Northern Kordofan, the Kawahla, who inhabit eastern Sudan, Northern Kordofan, and White Nile State, and the Baggara, who inhabit South Kordofan and extend to Lake Chad. There are numerous smaller tribal units that do not conform to the above groups, such as the Messelemiya, the Rikabia, the Hawawir people, the Magharba, the Awadia and Fadnia tribes, the Kerriat, the Kenana people, the Kerrarish, the Hamran, amongst others.[17]
Sudan also houses non-Sudanese Arab populations such as the Rashaida that only recently settled Sudan in the 1846, after migrating from the Hejaz region of the Arabian Peninsula.[18] Additionally, other smaller Sudanese groups who have also been Arabized, or partially Arabized, but retain a separate, non-Arab identity, include the Nubians, Copts, and Beja.
Regional variation
quote: Arab tribes arrived in Sudan in three main waves, beginning with the Ja'alin in the 12th century. The Ja'alin trace their lineage to Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib and their culture was closely linked with that of the Bedouin in Arabia. The second main wave was the migration of the Juhaynah before the 17th century in two main subgroups, the Baggara and Kabbabish. The final main wave was the migration of Bani Rashid in the mid-19th century.[5]
Most Sudanese Arabs speak modern Sudanese Arabic, with western Sudanese tribes bordering Chad like the Baggara and Darfurians generally speaking Chadian Arabic. Sudanese Arabs have large variations in culture and genealogy because of their descent from a combination of various population groups.[19] Other Arab population in Sudan that are not Sudanese Arab, i.e. those that are recent arrivals to the region exist, and most of them such as the Awadia and Fadnia tribes, the Bani Hassan, Al-Ashraf and Rashaida tribes generally speak Hejazi Arabic instead of the more widespread Sudanese Arabic.
Wikipedia
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Edited above.
Ja'alin tribe
quote: The Ja'alin, Ja'aliya, Ja'aliyin or Ja'al (Arabic: جعليون) are an Arab[a] or Arabised Nubian[b] tribe in Sudan. The Ja'alin constitute a large portion of the Sudanese Arabs and are one of the three prominent Sudanese Arab tribes in northern Sudan - the others being the Shaigiya and Danagla. They trace their origin to Ibrahim Ja'al, an Abbasid noble, whose clan originally hailed from the Hejaz in the Arabian Peninsula and married into the local Nubian population. Ja'al was a descendant of al-Abbas, an uncle of Muhammad. The Ja'alin formerly occupied the country on both banks of the Nile from Khartoum to Abu Hamad.[13] According to a source, the tribe allegedly once spoke a now extinct dialect of Nubian as late as the nineteenth century.[14] Many Sudanese politicians have come from the Ja'alin tribal coalition.[15]
History The Ja'alin trace their lineage to Abbas, uncle of Muhammad.[13] At the Egyptian invasion in 1811 they were the most powerful of Arab tribes in the Nile valley. They submitted at first, but in 1822 rebelled and massacred the Egyptian garrison at Shendi with the Mek Nimr, a Ja'ali King (mek) burning Ismail, Muhammad Ali Pasha's son and his cortege at a banquet. The revolt was mercilessly suppressed, and the Ja'alin were thence forward looked on with suspicion. They were almost the first of the northern tribes to join the Mahdi in 1884, and it was their position to the north of Khartoum which made communication with General Gordon so difficult. The Ja'alin then became a semi-nomad agricultural people.[13]
Shaigiya tribe
quote: The Shaigiya, Shaiqiya, Shawayga or Shaykia (Arabic: الشايقيّة) are an Arab[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] or Arabised Nubian[11][12][13][14][15] tribe. They are part of the Sudanese Arabs and are also one of the three prominent Sudanese Arabs tribes in North Sudan, along with the Ja'alin and Danagla. The tribe inhabits the region of Dar al-Shayqiya, which stretches along the banks of the Nile River from Jabal al-Dajer to the end of Muscat's fourth waterfall and includes their tribal capital of Korti and parts of the Bayuda desert. Although speaking Sudanese Arabic today, a source claimed that the Shaigiya, like the Ja'alin, have spoken some form of Nubian as late as the 19th century.[16] This language, labelled as Old Shaiqi,[17] was apparently closely related, if not identical to the Nobiin dialect.[18][19] In the 20th century, Shaiqi tribe are among those along the Nile, who have been affected by the Merowe Dam.[20]
Origin and lineage The Shaigiya are a sub-group of Al-Dahamishiy, a branch of the larger Ja'alin tribe. They are divided into different clans, each belonging to the twelve sons of Shaig (the founder).[21]
Shaigiya are predominantly Sunni Muslims with small sects of Shia believers. They trace their origin to a Hejazi Arab named Shaig who came from the Arabian Peninsula in the 7th century following the Arabian conquest of Egypt.[22] Shaig was a descendant of Abbas (an uncle of prophet Muhammad). He and his family settled in Sudan and intermixed with the local Nubians, creating this tribe. However, historically it seems the tribe has originated in 15th century as a hybrid of various tribes settled in the area. [23] According to Nicholls, at the start of the 20th century, the tribe nobles denied to have Arabic origins and claimed to have always inhabited the same territory as today.[24]
Wikipedia
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Here is more talk from another forum.
Kandakes of Kush
World said:
quote:
I don’t doubt the fact that at some point in history, you may have invaded North Sudan for a short time, but all genetic studies in terms of Autosomal point towards North Sudan being occupied by a population that clusters with modern day inhabitants. BTW, the Christian Nubian study you said that they were paternally African. That’s not true, none of the samples had Nilo-Saharan Y-DNA. They were majority E1b1b, and they also were not 100 % maternally Euroasian but mixed just like modern day Horners and Bejas.
Nilotic quote-
quote: Ah, so now you no doubt we had a presence in the North? We only left the Gezira in the 13th and 15th Centuries, so our presence there was not brief. People corresponding perfectly to the physical appearance and dimensions of the Nilotics were depicted on those walls because they were encountered; the map on ancient Sudanese kingdoms shows them extending into areas recognised as having been occupied by Nilotics until recently. The Kasu and the Nubae (Nubians) were very much likely similar to populations in Darfur today, minus the recent Arab admixture that reach Darfur as well in the last 400 years. Kush was an empire and Nilotics played some role -- unless the depictions are somehow wrong and should (strangely) only be dismissed in relation to this specific population.
The Nubians have their origins in Darfur and like Darfurian populations, they are a composite of Nilotic and indigenous North African ancestry -- marked by E-M35 lineages; Nubians experienced recent Eurasian introgression -- especially during the Arab expansion into Sudan; the specific Kulubnarti population are not ancestral to modern Nubians and have entirely different admixture composites, from a different admixture event. I don't know why you want to dismiss the genetic studies showing that the Nubians were the products of recent admixture, and why you want to present them as having always been Beja-like, when these studies say otherwise.
Kush was an empire and Nilotics played some role -- unless the depictions are somehow wrong and should (strangely) only be dismissed in relation to this specific population.
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