Hate & racism towards black/darker skin people in the Arab world is common, But why ?
Posted by yazid904 (Member # 7708) on :
The Arab world is heterogenous and the roots of Arab culture encompasses Africa! Have you heard of the Song of Antar! This is not to dismiss some Arabs who go against the teaching of Mohammed (PBUH), who, e.g kill innocent women and children just to do so! Please do not confuse Muslim and Arab since they are not mutually exclusive. The largest Muslim populations are in Indonesia, then you have Turks, Persians (Iranians) and others who are not Arab. At times, speaking Arabic appears to make one an Arab but this has a hold on some groups and not in others! The Darfur problem is Arab speaking Africans against their Christian or animist African brethren!
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
The racism probably stems from competiton and historical conquest. The ancient Arab groups felt they were superior to both whites and blacks. In the modern world blacks are considered the lowest due to the historical slave trade thus it affects how modern day Arabs percieve ''black'' Africans. Many Arabs also see ''black'' Africans as cannibals and savages. This perception is probably related to western media and of how Africans are presented in Arab cinema.
Historically, it appears that blacks were seen as allies and as inferiors to the Arabs. The Banil Hilal epic and Song of Antar present blacks as undiserables. In the some of the Hadiths Muhammed tells a bedouin not to disown his son because he came out black,and also of the equality all the different ethnic groups.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
^^Great explanation.
Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: The racism probably stems from competiton and historical conquest. The ancient Arab groups felt they were superior to both whites and blacks. In the modern world blacks are considered the lowest due to the historical slave trade thus it affects how modern day Arabs percieve ''black'' Africans. Many Arabs also see ''black'' Africans as cannibals and savages. This perception is probably related to western media and of how Africans are present in Arab cinema.
Historically, it appears that blacks were see as allies and as inferiors to the Arabs. The Banil Hilal epic and Song of Antar present blacks as undiserables. In the some of the Hadiths Muhammed tells a bedouin not to disown his son because he came out black,and also of the equality all the different ethnic groups.
ya know da arabs looked down on turks too, even though they were Muslim Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: The Arab world is heterogenous and the roots of Arab culture encompasses Africa! Have you heard of the Song of Antar! This is not to dismiss some Arabs who go against the teaching of Mohammed (PBUH), who, e.g kill innocent women and children just to do so! Please do not confuse Muslim and Arab since they are not mutually exclusive. The largest Muslim populations are in Indonesia, then you have Turks, Persians (Iranians) and others who are not Arab. At times, speaking Arabic appears to make one an Arab but this has a hold on some groups and not in others! The Darfur problem is Arab speaking Africans against their Christian or animist African brethren!
quote:Originally posted by ausar: The racism probably stems from competiton and historical conquest. The ancient Arab groups felt they were superior to both whites and blacks. In the modern world blacks are considered the lowest due to the historical slave trade thus it affects how modern day Arabs percieve ''black'' Africans. Many Arabs also see ''black'' Africans as cannibals and savages. This perception is probably related to western media and of how Africans are present in Arab cinema.
Historically, it appears that blacks were see as allies and as inferiors to the Arabs. The Banil Hilal epic and Song of Antar present blacks as undiserables. In the some of the Hadiths Muhammed tells a bedouin not to disown his son because he came out black,and also of the equality all the different ethnic groups.
^ Both Yazid and Ausar are 100% correct. These are the answers to your question Pepi_Khem!
Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18:
quote:Originally posted by ausar: The racism probably stems from competiton and historical conquest. The ancient Arab groups felt they were superior to both whites and blacks. In the modern world blacks are considered the lowest due to the historical slave trade thus it affects how modern day Arabs percieve ''black'' Africans. Many Arabs also see ''black'' Africans as cannibals and savages. This perception is probably related to western media and of how Africans are present in Arab cinema.
Historically, it appears that blacks were see as allies and as inferiors to the Arabs. The Banil Hilal epic and Song of Antar present blacks as undiserables. In the some of the Hadiths Muhammed tells a bedouin not to disown his son because he came out black,and also of the equality all the different ethnic groups.
ya know da arabs looked down on turks too, even though they were Muslim
It's the other way around, the Turks looked down on arabs, they ruled them for 700 years afterall untill the first world war.
Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :
yes, as well as arabs looking down on turks, as well as euroepans .
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You know, a few, some, many, or most, of all people in any given race, ethny, tribe, nationality, etc., looks down on one, some, or every other group not their own.
So really what's the relevance of the question? Make up any reason you can imagine and no doubt it will fill the bill.
Posted by One_and_Done (Member # 10712) on :
yazid904 wrote:
quote: The Darfur problem is Arab speaking Africans against their Christian or animist African brethren!
1. Their is no such thing as Arab speaking, there is a language called Arabic.
2. Everyone in Darfur speaks Arabic.
3. Just about everyone in Darfur is a muslim. There is no Christian/animist versus Arab in Darfur. And everyone there is African. In case you didn't know it there is a civil war going on.
Apparently you and everyone who cosigned with you has severe informational problems. I.E. you're too lazy to look it up.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by One_and_Done: What kind of crybaby wailing is this?
What about the Chinese, Indonesians, Phillipenos, Malaysians and Japanese that go there to work?
What about the South Asians (Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis, and Sri Lankans)?
What about the Persians?
Do we even need to go into the Euros?
I've seen stories from all of these people.
So why are you caterwauling? Hard up to get your victimhood on?
I don't think Pepi was whining, but just asking a question out of general curiousity and/or concern.
The fact of the matter that Takruri pointed out was that human beings will hated and look down on each other for some reason or the other; it doesn't have to be about skin color.
Look at the hatred between the Hutus have for the Tutsis or the Japanese for the Chinese or even between the Serbs and the Bosnians. Obviously skin color is not a factor in any of these animosities.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by One_and_Done: 1. Their is no such thing as Arab speaking, there is a language called Arabic.
That depends... Are you talking about Africans or Arabians?
quote:2. Everyone in Darfur speaks Arabic.
3. Just about everyone in Darfur is a muslim. There is no Christian/animist versus Arab in Darfur. And everyone there is African. In case you didn't know it there is a civil war going on.
Apparently you and everyone who cosigned with you has severe informational problems. I.E. you're too lazy to look it up.
You're right. No one in the Darfur region is really Arab, but the hostile forces all claim to be Arabs while their enemies do not. In fact those forces who claim Arab idenity deny their black identity, even though they are no less black than the enemies they kill.
Arabization is a mental sickness in Africa.
Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by One_and_Done: 1. Their is no such thing as Arab speaking, there is a language called Arabic.
That depends... Are you talking about Africans or Arabians?
quote:2. Everyone in Darfur speaks Arabic.
3. Just about everyone in Darfur is a muslim. There is no Christian/animist versus Arab in Darfur. And everyone there is African. In case you didn't know it there is a civil war going on.
Apparently you and everyone who cosigned with you has severe informational problems. I.E. you're too lazy to look it up.
You're right. No one in the Darfur region is really Arab, but the hostile forces all claim to be Arabs while their enemies do not. In fact those forces who claim Arab idenity deny their black identity, even though they are no less black than the enemies they kill.
Is Arabization the fault of the Arabs or the Islamic Africans in your opinion?
Posted by Kemson (Member # 12850) on :
quote:Originally posted by PEPI_KHEM: Hate & racism towards black/darker skin people in the Arab world is common, But why ?
quote:Originally posted by ausar: ...The ancient Arab groups felt they were superior to both whites and blacks. In the modern world blacks are considered the lowest due to the historical slave trade thus it affects how modern day Arabs percieve ''black'' Africans....
...Historically, it appears that blacks were seen as allies and as inferiors to the Arabs....
Blacks seen as allies and as inferiors by these Arabs would makes these Arabs seem confused. Obviously, mythical stories created as substantial bases for hating Blacks and carrying out racist injustices against Blacks quickly crumbles once Ancient Black history begins to unfold. Funny thing is I've heard that prophet Mohammad as a Black African and his father was coal Black and now there's a song where Mohammad is telling someone not to disown his son because he's Black. This is getting better and better everyday. Hold up; Are we talking about Mohammad's son here or Bedouin's?
So what! Arabs, Jews and Christian Europe all used the "Ham" theory to degrade Black people even though none of the lies they told themselves were true. Thankfully, it's all changing. Maybe not for the said historically shameless and racist bigots, but Black awareness of these histories is the most important thing. Posted by One_and_Done (Member # 10712) on :
quote: You're right. No one in the Darfur region is really Arab, but the hostile forces all claim to be Arabs while their enemies do not. In fact those forces who claim Arab idenity deny their black identity, even though they are no less black than the enemies they kill.
Arabization is a mental sickness in Africa.
What do you know about Darfur? Like you've been there. Again your posts have No facts, No evidence, No Reality. Just your uneducated schitzophrenic opinions.
You really need to believe that it is as simplistic as what you idiotically gobble up from the media. You're not even smart enough to understand that:
1. There is a civil war going on 2. The rebels are also a source of the problem 3. Ethnic groups have been in conflicts since there were ethnic groups in Sudan. 4. That maybe the press is exaggerating if not outright lying about what is going on there.
By spouting off wildly and trying to pass off your opinions as if they were facts, you are continuosly putting your stupidity on public display.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
So why would the press chose a side. It seems like the press is on the rebels side. It puts out that the Gov't is backed by "arabs" or are arabs. When I look at the both sides on TV they all look like Black African to me. Always had mt suspicions on the intent of the western press. Seems like the AU agrees it is no big deal. And they can solve the problem.
Rumour is oil and control of the oil regions.
Posted by Masonic Rebel (Member # 9549) on :
PEPI_KHEM
quote: Hate & racism towards black/darker skin people in the Arab world is common, But why?
I believe one of the reasons is because of Religion
Example:
From the Quran
Hadith; vol.9:162,163: Muhammad warned that dreams of black women meant disease was forthcoming.
Posted by Henu (Member # 13490) on :
One_and_Done, that's enough with the insults. This is your second warning.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by PEPI_KHEM: Hate & racism towards black/darker skin people in the Arab world is common, But why ?
...which makes it all the more amazing when "black African" Muslims sympathize with Arabs being "oppressed" in the "Middle East" by the Israeli "Zionists" and their US-European imperialist allies...not because 'black Africans' see these folks as superior in any sense of the word, but because they too have at some point or another been down that road of imperialist 'opression'. Is it safe then to assume that, if the tables were turned, which in some cases it actually is, that these same Arabs don't afford "black Africans" the same sympathy?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by One_and_Done:
What kind of crybaby wailing is this?
What about the Chinese, Indonesians, Phillipenos, Malaysians and Japanese that go there to work?
What about the South Asians (Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis, and Sri Lankans)?
What about the Persians?
Do we even need to go into the Euros?
I've seen stories from all of these people.
So why are you caterwauling? Hard up to get your victimhood on?
I don't think Pepi was whining, but just asking a question out of general curiousity and/or concern.
The fact of the matter that Takruri pointed out was that human beings will hated and look down on each other for some reason or the other; it doesn't have to be about skin color.
Look at the hatred between the Hutus have for the Tutsis or the Japanese for the Chinese or even between the Serbs and the Bosnians. Obviously skin color is not a factor in any of these animosities.
I take it from the way you phrased it, that Tutsis love the Hutus in return, and likewise the Chinese love the Japanese. Kind'a like the 'turn the other cheek'? Shouldn't "vice versa" be the more realistic situation?
Posted by PEPI_KHEM (Member # 12897) on :
quote:Originally posted by One_and_Done: PEPI_KHEM wrote:
quote: Hate & racism towards black/darker skin people in the Arab world is common, But why ?
What kind of crybaby wailing is this?
What about the Chinese, Indonesians, Phillipenos, Malaysians and Japanese that go there to work?
What about the South Asians (Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis, and Sri Lankans)?
What about the Persians?
Do we even need to go into the Euros?
I've seen stories from all of these people.
So why are you caterwauling? Hard up to get your victimhood on?
Ey, Do you feel attacked by my question.. ?
Posted by PEPI_KHEM (Member # 12897) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel: PEPI_KHEM
quote: Hate & racism towards black/darker skin people in the Arab world is common, But why?
I believe one of the reasons is because of Religion
Example:
From the Quran
Hadith; vol.9:162,163: Muhammad warned that dreams of black women meant disease was forthcoming.
I all ready thought that, It has to do with religion
Posted by PEPI_KHEM (Member # 12897) on :
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: The Arab world is heterogenous and the roots of Arab culture encompasses Africa! Have you heard of the Song of Antar! This is not to dismiss some Arabs who go against the teaching of Mohammed (PBUH), who, e.g kill innocent women and children just to do so! Please do not confuse Muslim and Arab since they are not mutually exclusive. The largest Muslim populations are in Indonesia, then you have Turks, Persians (Iranians) and others who are not Arab. At times, speaking Arabic appears to make one an Arab but this has a hold on some groups and not in others! The Darfur problem is Arab speaking Africans against their Christian or animist African brethren!
Thanks for the answer
Posted by PEPI_KHEM (Member # 12897) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: The racism probably stems from competiton and historical conquest. The ancient Arab groups felt they were superior to both whites and blacks. In the modern world blacks are considered the lowest due to the historical slave trade thus it affects how modern day Arabs percieve ''black'' Africans. Many Arabs also see ''black'' Africans as cannibals and savages. This perception is probably related to western media and of how Africans are presented in Arab cinema.
Historically, it appears that blacks were seen as allies and as inferiors to the Arabs. The Banil Hilal epic and Song of Antar present blacks as undiserables. In the some of the Hadiths Muhammed tells a bedouin not to disown his son because he came out black,and also of the equality all the different ethnic groups.
Thanks for the question Ausar
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
I don't feel that Islam was really a factor in the prejustice towards ''black'' Africans because the root of Islam preached equality. Many of the racist hadiths have no source and were most likely created later. You must also seperate modern and ancient Arab prejustice because the two are really different. Modern Arabs,especially Arabized Maghrebians, are prejusticed because they see ''black''Africans as inferiors and savages. Most of these images come from historical slave trade and western views of race.
Kemson, the hadith was about the son of the bedouin comimg out black. Muhammed corrected the bedouin insiting that all camels were related regardless of their coloring.
Pepi_Kem, is from a European country that has a large Moroccan population,so he most likely witnesses prejustice that Moroccans have towards ''black'' Africans. What's ironic is many of these Moroccans also face prejustice from Europeans living in ghettoes and having a high incarseration rate.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel: PEPI_KHEM
quote: Hate & racism towards black/darker skin people in the Arab world is common, But why?
I believe one of the reasons is because of Religion
Example:
From the Quran Hadith; vol.9:162,163: Muhammad warned that dreams of black women meant disease was forthcoming.
But unlike the Judeo-Christian Bible, colors like black and white represent things, and quite the opposite of what they would in the Judeo- Bible.
Black in Quran = bad / sin
White in Quran = good / holy
Opposite.
Posted by Masonic Rebel (Member # 9549) on :
Agreed ^
Posted by PEPI_KHEM (Member # 12897) on :
Pepi_Kem, is from a European country that has a large Moroccan population,so he most likely witnesses prejustice that Moroccans have towards ''black'' Africans. What's ironic is many of these Moroccans also face prejustice from Europeans living in ghettoes and having a high incarseration rate.
Very true indeed
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by One_and_Done: What do you know about Darfur? Like you've been there. Again your posts have No facts, No evidence, No Reality. Just your uneducated schitzophrenic opinions.
You really need to believe that it is as simplistic as what you idiotically gobble up from the media. You're not even smart enough to understand that:
1. There is a civil war going on 2. The rebels are also a source of the problem 3. Ethnic groups have been in conflicts since there were ethnic groups in Sudan. 4. That maybe the press is exaggerating if not outright lying about what is going on there.
By spouting off wildly and trying to pass off your opinions as if they were facts, you are continuosly putting your stupidity on public display.
There is nothing "uneducated" or even inaccurate about what I stated about the Darfur situation!
You are right that there has always been ethnic strife there, but never to the degree that has been going on recently and now! Much of the intensity and disgusting nature of the acts that the nomads perpertrate are because of the simple fact that they are Arabized i.e. wanna-be Arabs who hate their non Arabized brethren!
Arab Militiamen in Sudan Said to Use Rape as Weapon of Ethnic Cleansing
By Emily Wax Washington Post Foreign Service Wednesday, June 30, 2004; Page A01
GENEINA, Sudan, June 29 -- At first light on Sunday, three young women walked into a scrubby field just outside their refugee camp in West Darfur. They had gone out to collect straw for their family's donkeys. They recalled thinking that the Arab militiamen who were attacking African tribes at night would still be asleep. But six men grabbed them, yelling Arabic slurs such as "zurga" and "abid," meaning "black" and "slave." Then the men raped them, beat them and left them on the ground, they said.
"They grabbed my donkey and my straw and said, 'Black girl, you are too dark. You are like a dog. We want to make a light baby,' " said Sawela Suliman, 22, showing slashes from where a whip had struck her thighs as her father held up a police and health report with details of the attack. "They said, 'You get out of this area and leave the child when it's made.' "...
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
Modern Arabs,especially Arabized Maghrebians, are prejusticed because they see ''black''Africans as inferiors and savages. Most of these images come from historical slave trade and western views of race.
In other words, they are brainwashed. Today "Arabs" and sections of their "Arabized" colleagues are targets of being labeled as savage blood thirsty terrorists, who live a very backward style of living. One would think that this would humble them, and seek social allies in other historically oppressed sections of the society, rather than being enemies to broader sections of the society.
Posted by Lord of the Nile (Member # 10305) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: The racism probably stems from competiton and historical conquest. The ancient Arab groups felt they were superior to both whites and blacks. In the modern world blacks are considered the lowest due to the historical slave trade thus it affects how modern day Arabs percieve ''black'' Africans. Many Arabs also see ''black'' Africans as cannibals and savages. This perception is probably related to western media and of how Africans are presented in Arab cinema.
Historically, it appears that blacks were seen as allies and as inferiors to the Arabs. The Banil Hilal epic and Song of Antar present blacks as undiserables. In the some of the Hadiths Muhammed tells a bedouin not to disown his son because he came out black,and also of the equality all the different ethnic groups.
Ausar
Your answer in this tread is not only false it is racist and actually demeans the people you are supposedly defending.
I actually suspect that this represents your own opinion and not the culture of the Arabs.
In the middle east there are black and pale Arabs. In the same family of Arabs one can find black and white cousins connected by blood.
Mohammed PUBH was an Arab but he was a Black Arab. His ancestors were Blacks. Most of his students (i.e. apostles) were black Arabs. How then can you make such scandalous assumptions. It is racist to defame pale Arabs with a simple minded overgeneralization as you have done. It is even more insulting to Africans to suggest that we are victims of Arabs. Please review your history and correct yourself.
The Lord, that was a good read from the link you posted. It's funny referring to you as "The Lord" and actually quite cool.
I had a strange feeling something was wrong with the above claims. More people trying to runaway from Negro genetic association even though they wouldn't exist as an ethnic group without it.
Posted by Lord of the Nile (Member # 10305) on :
Kemson
Greetings from one NiJah to another!
The Lord
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL It looks like the nutcases are up and about.
Posted by Kemson (Member # 12850) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL It looks like the nutcases are up and about.
Djehuti-EBC (flag)
Wanna know what "EBC" means? Read my definition of it here:
Djehuti-EBC Posted by Kemson (Member # 12850) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lord of the Nile: Kemson
Greetings from one NiJah to another!
The Lord
Greetings to "The Lord"!
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
Ausar might have some beef with the Arabs since he is a Black Egyptian, so maybe he might not be objective with respect to his opinion towards Arabs. I don't think people from the Maghreb are as racist as PEPI or Ausar describe them, I lived in France for quite sometime, whether they are foreign students or from the French suburbs, they had pretty good relationships with Black Africans...Beside Mauritania I don't think that there is serious racism towards Black Africans...However I couldn't speak for Arabs from the gulf since I'm not very familiar with them. I have a question for PEPI it seems that you had some personal problems with Moroccan in Amsterdam...can you please expand on that?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
I wouldn't be surprised at xenophobic reactions in North Africa to non-North African foreigners, including Africans from the interior of the continent. As I said, such a phenomenon wouldn't be restricted to these regions.
Posted by Lord of the Nile (Member # 10305) on :
quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I: Ausar might have some beef with the Arabs since he is a Black Egyptian, so maybe he might not be objective with respect to his opinion towards Arabs.
Ausar is a Black Egyptian...and horses will fly next.
He claims he is Egyptian, but he has never claimed to be black. Question for Ausar: Do you consider yourself a Black Egyptian?
The Lord
Posted by Masonic Rebel (Member # 9549) on :
Lord of the Nile
quote: Mohammed PUBH was an Arab but he was a Black Arab. His ancestors were Blacks. Most of his students (i.e. apostles) were black Arabs. How then can you make such scandalous assumptions. It is racist to defame pale Arabs with a simple minded overgeneralization as you have done. It is even more insulting to Africans to suggest that we are victims of Arabs. Please review your history and correct yourself.
Sorry Mohammed being a Black Man is not supported in the Quran
Example:
In Sahih Al Bukhary vol. 1 no. 63 , we read "while we were sitting with the Prophet, a man came and said, "who amongst you is Mohammed?" We replied, "this white man reclining on his arm..."
Posted by Lord of the Nile (Member # 10305) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel: Lord of the Nile
quote: Mohammed PUBH was an Arab but he was a Black Arab. His ancestors were Blacks. Most of his students (i.e. apostles) were black Arabs. How then can you make such scandalous assumptions. It is racist to defame pale Arabs with a simple minded overgeneralization as you have done. It is even more insulting to Africans to suggest that we are victims of Arabs. Please review your history and correct yourself.
Sorry Mohammed being a Black Man is not supported in the Quran
Example:
In Sahih Al Bukhary vol. 1 no. 63 , we read "while we were sitting with the Prophet, a man came and said, "who amongst you is Mohammed?" We replied, "this white man reclining on his arm..."
That citation of yours is not from the Holy Koran. The Holy Koran did not at any time delve into the issue of Prophet Mohammed's PUBH colour.
It belongs to a body of tradition (mythologies) that grew in diverse forms in diverse sectors of Islam.
Study your sources carefully.
The Lord
Posted by Masonic Rebel (Member # 9549) on :
Lord of the Nile
quote: That citation of yours is not from the Holy Koran.
Correct
The Hadith is the Koran
Hadith no. 122 refers to Mohammed as a white person
Hadith no. 141 when Mohammed raised his arms, "the whiteness of his armpits became visible."
quote: The Holy Koran did not at any time delve into the issue of Prophet Mohammed's PUBH colour.
Still
Qur'an [39.60] And on the day of resurrection you shall see those who lied against Allah; their faces shall be blackened
A Black Prophet with an inferiority complex ???
quote: Study your sources carefully
Noted
Sahih Bukhari is a collection of sayings and deeds of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), also known as the sunnah. The reports of the Prophet's sayings and deeds are called ahadith. Bukhari lived a couple of centuries after the Prophet's death and worked extremely hard to collect his ahadith. Each report in his collection was checked for compatibility with the Qur'an, and the veracity of the chain of reporters had to be painstakingly established. Bukhari's collection is recognized by the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world to be one of the most authentic collections of the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh).
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lord of the Nile:
quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel:
Lord of the Nile
quote: Mohammed PUBH was an Arab but he was a Black Arab. His ancestors were Blacks. Most of his students (i.e. apostles) were black Arabs. How then can you make such scandalous assumptions. It is racist to defame pale Arabs with a simple minded overgeneralization as you have done. It is even more insulting to Africans to suggest that we are victims of Arabs. Please review your history and correct yourself.
Sorry Mohammed being a Black Man is not supported in the Quran
Example:
In Sahih Al Bukhary vol. 1 no. 63 , we read "while we were sitting with the Prophet, a man came and said, "who amongst you is Mohammed?" We replied, "this white man reclining on his arm..."
That citation of yours is not from the Holy Koran. The Holy Koran did not at any time delve into the issue of Prophet Mohammed's PUBH colour.
It belongs to a body of tradition (mythologies) that grew in diverse forms in diverse sectors of Islam.
Study your sources carefully.
The Lord
You may have a point there; not sure the Kuran itself describes Muhammed in any detail or in any way, physically. Here, no attempt is even made to depict the prophet, as is in the case of the depiction of a "Nordic blonde" looking Jesus...a figure who never had his portrait prepared during his lifetime [so one can imagine from where the "Nordic personality" came]. Is this not one of the reasons why the attempt to draw a cartoon of this figure [Muhammed] sparked some controversy not too long ago?
Posted by One_and_Done (Member # 10712) on :
PEPI_KHEM wrote:
quote: Ey, Do you feel attacked by my question.. ?
I'm wondering why you're wailing about some group "supposedly" not liking you.
Especially since:
1. It is a generalizing and stereotyping.
2. It has been showed that whatever amounts exists, its not limited to one group.
3. Even if it was (which it is not) why do even you care? It seems very weak.
Posted by Macawiis_Bile_Nigiish (Member # 11724) on :
^Strong points and i agree!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I had reservations myself. Seems like some of the mederator are biased towards giving certain posters a free hand. Plus they allow racist Eurocentrics to spew their nonsense a little more freely. I am wandering if who they were myself. DONT misunderstand the forum is good. Just wandering who is behind it. It seems like aways the race topics are most popular and gets most hits. Is this deliberate?
quote:Originally posted by Lord of the Nile:
quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I: Ausar might have some beef with the Arabs since he is a Black Egyptian, so maybe he might not be objective with respect to his opinion towards Arabs.
Ausar is a Black Egyptian...and horses will fly next.
He claims he is Egyptian, but he has never claimed to be black. Question for Ausar: Do you consider yourself a Black Egyptian?
The Lord
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Lord, I don't see how my post is either racist or historically inaccurate. Yes, Arabs do have pale and dark skinned people amongst them but this does not excempt them from any prejudice towards black Africans. Most often a ''black'' Arab will be treated differently than a ''black'' African such as a Central or Western African in Arabic speaking countries. Historically, Arabs have traded black slaves foriming a hierarchy of certain blacks compaired to others. In the Arab world during the middle ages Abyssianians and Nubians were preffered for concubinage while Bantus were mainly used as labor.
From reading various Arabic medieval historians I came with the conclusion that Arabs considered black Africans to be inferior to themselves. Reading the same Arabic authors I also concluded Arabs also thought most northern and even some southern Europeans were culturally inferior. I suggest you also read Arabic epics like Antar and Bani Hilal which contain black Arab chracters which are disowned by their own fathers. Antar's mother was even a ''black'' slave and his father kept him in bondage. Please understand I never presented by view as gospel but only as theories to why many Arabs have disdain for black Africans.
A little bit of my own experiances as a Egyptian is also interjected after witnessing anti-black prejudiced in a diverse countries like Egypt and Maghreb. Even though my skin color is quite dark I am excempt from most of the taunts towards black Africans because I don't look like a typical Western or Central African. People in both Egypt and Maghrebian countries actually taunt people that are extremely black. People hurl Arabic insults like heebab which means literally ''dirt' in Arabic.
I also want to establish that I am not biased nor have any resentment towards Arabs. The colorism and prejudice in the Arab world is wrong. Having an open discussion about such issues will hopefully lead to better understanding.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
^^ - understood
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
quote:Even though my skin color is quite dark I am excempt from most of the taunts towards black Africans because I don't look like a typical Western or Central African. People in both Egypt and Maghrebian countries actually taunt people that are extremely black. People hurl Arabic insults like heebab which means literally ''dirt' in Arabic.
This is the real Panafricanism on the streets of North Africa. Although I met North African and "White" Egyptians only outside Africa or in my own country, they were descent people...I had a good impression, however I heard conflicting stories from Black Africans who lived in North Africa...after all we might be as close genetically to Greeks as to some people from the Maghreb or Egypt..
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
Curious: What is a typical West African, Central African, East African, and South African look? Every now and then, I come across people using this term, but every time I ask this question, nobody seems to have an answer.
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
Actually there are many Black Egyptian who could fit easily in the streets of Brazzaville...Whereas, a Somali could be easier to spot in Brazzaville...but again there also some Somali who look like Congolese...
Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Curious: What is a typical West African, Central African, East African, and South African look? Every now and then, I come across people using this term, but every time I ask this question, nobody seems to have an answer.
Typical Indigenious East African look
Typical Indigenious West African look Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
Well they both alike...I don't see any difference, they are both Black.
Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
Yes they are both African, but you can still detect a characteristics East (indigenous) and West african look on each.
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
They both look Black African....they look alike
Posted by Kemson (Member # 12850) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Yes they are both African, but you can still detect a characteristics East (indigenous) and West african look on each.
Wow...talked about a destructive mind!!!
Reasons like this is the cause of the divide among many Black Africans in Africa. With people like you paying attention to insignificances such as the pictures you posted above, I see no other reason for such actions than mis-education and moral starvation.
Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
What do you mean destructive mind? I was answering a question put forward by MS.
There is no insignificancies, the difference is quite apparent, if you can't see that these two men are from different ethnicities then it's you who is blind. They are different types of people of the African broader "race". ofcourse Both are genetically closer than to europeans or asians, but they are still distinct in the african spectrum. This belief that all sub-saharan africans look the same as a group consisting of one great homogenous family is not true, this is a popular misconception. The African regional varieties exist such as south (khoisan influenced), east, west and north (levant, medditeranian influenced). It's not as simple as a single "negro african" entity.
And also what unity are you talking about? Which unity is there among asia, or europe, (maybe recently they've tried extremely hard after almost extincting themselves, it's not even working that great just a show of for politicians) this whole continental unity is just nonsense fantasies and will ultimatly fail unless all adopt something like the english language or french in europe, chinese in asia or swahili, hausa in africa. If you don't speak the same language and have similar values and culture then there won't be any real unity. People can cooperate and be respectfull towards eachother, but that's it, there is no reason to "unite" whatever that means just because you live on the same unbroken landmass or share similar phenotype.
If there is ever going to be an african unity then a powerfull uniting force has to emerge that can consolidate all these places and tribes/ethnicities like a religion adopted by consent or force, alternatively a dominant state that absorbes the rest creating a lingua franca with a central none-ethnical identity. But untill then the differences are to great for anyone to feel unity, no superficial names such as "african", or "blacks" or "AU" will create a mental bridge between these cultures and people.
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
That's a more objective descriptions of Africans, the following looks are not restricted to East or West Africa, they are allover Africa: Broad faced African
Elongated
Diminutive Africans(Twa/Pygmies)
San looking African
Nilotes(technically Elongated as well) Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Wow...talked about a destructive mind!!!
Reasons like this is the cause of the divide among many Black Africans in Africa.
Much truth here. Rwanda being a perfect example of how we sometimes conjure fake divisions rather than acknowledge points of unity.
Some facts to keep in mind about the variable phenotypes of Black Africans.
Round faces and prognathesim may be easier to associate with modern West Africans.... but some of the earliest skeletal remains of the Nile Valley show these features. And of course many East Africans, especially Nilo-saharan of Ethiopia Sudan and Kenya continue to have them.
These features are not all that uncommon in modern upper Egypt either.
Narrow heads and faces may be more typically associated with East Africans.... but they are also found among Fulani, Taoureg and other West Africans, and of course among the Tutsi of East Africa.
There are different frequencies of features in East and West Africa.... but East and West are finally only geography and not phenotype.
It's telling when someone wants to use 'east' and 'west' as a surrogate word for phenotype... while evading the frightening terrifying term, KM.t -> 'Black', which is and accurate reference to phenotypical feature of 'dark skin' which all these people share.
And actual common feature is ignored.
Instead a fake [phenotype] division is proferred.
Telling, but expected, considering the source.
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
Prognathism is not common among Sudanese Nilotic, Rwanda's Tutsi are from Central Africa, and are more related to West Africans than East Africans genetically. Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
Yonis said;
''And also what unity are you talking about?''
I will have to agree with Yonis on his assessment.
Now the only thing that remains for the others here is to see to it that enough flowers are passed out and while you're at it be sure to give everyone a big hug and kiss. That'll solve everything.
Some of you guys are perpetual rope pushers; you think there has to be away out of this don't you. Can't even figure out why the rope won't stay in a straight line?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
Curious: What is a typical West African, Central African, East African, and South African look? Every now and then, I come across people using this term, but every time I ask this question, nobody seems to have an answer. [/qb]
Typical Indigenious East African look
Typical Indigenious West African look
B.S.
Selectively posting one or two pictures is supposed to show the diversity in West and East Africa how? I can just as well select a West African and East African who look completely different from your "selection", and call it "typical". Then what?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
Okay, let's play Yonis' game of selective picture posting...and see:
^Typical East African look
^Typical West African look.
What next?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
Interestingly, according to folks like Groves, Upper Paleolithic and early Holocene west African cranial specimens appear to have what he dubs as "caucasoid" tendencies. On the other hand, many of the earliest crania found in the Nile Valley [Upper Paleolithic] and east Africa [Middle Paleolithic], appear to have the so-called "negroid" traits. See: Epipaleolithic and early Holocene crania compared with some modern examples - Collin Groves et al. Posted by One_and_Done (Member # 10712) on :
Djehuti wrote:
quote: There is nothing "uneducated" or even inaccurate about what I stated about the Darfur situation!
You are right that there has always been ethnic strife there, but never to the degree that has been going on recently and now! Much of the intensity and disgusting nature of the acts that the nomads perpertrate are because of the simple fact that they are Arabized i.e. wanna-be Arabs who hate their non Arabized brethren!
Arab Militiamen in Sudan Said to Use Rape as Weapon of Ethnic Cleansing
By Emily Wax Washington Post Foreign Service Wednesday, June 30, 2004; Page A01
GENEINA, Sudan, June 29 -- At first light on Sunday, three young women walked into a scrubby field just outside their refugee camp in West Darfur. They had gone out to collect straw for their family's donkeys. They recalled thinking that the Arab militiamen who were attacking African tribes at night would still be asleep. But six men grabbed them, yelling Arabic slurs such as "zurga" and "abid," meaning "black" and "slave." Then the men raped them, beat them and left them on the ground, they said.
"They grabbed my donkey and my straw and said, 'Black girl, you are too dark. You are like a dog. We want to make a light baby,' " said Sawela Suliman, 22, showing slashes from where a whip had struck her thighs as her father held up a police and health report with details of the attack. "They said, 'You get out of this area and leave the child when it's made.' "...
This is so obviously propagandic that it makes you wonder about the intelligence of someone that would fall for it. Looks like some white boys fantasy gone wild. You can almost see the white clown writing it.
You fall for any negative propaganda that some white media person throws out. I guess you really do have the "Simon Says" syndrome that has been ascribed to you.
Here is an article from this same woman in 2006. Even though I don't like posting links everywhere under the sun, I'll post it this time.
Now in the above the woman is saying the exact opposite of her earlier propaganda. Two years later.
You fall for anything that media projects onto you when its something negative about Africans. That is just outright demented.
I'll end with some points:
1. There is a cold war between certain nations over Africa's resources.
2. There is a need to portray a certain group of people in a certain region as hostile and needing to be invaded and subjigated.
3. There is a need to portray a certain group of people on a certain continent as helpless, pathetic losers in order to justify coming and rescuing them for humanitarian causes.
4. Both this certain region and this certain continent are filled to the rim with natural resources.
5. I have seen western and southern sudanese rebels say that slavery were lies they used. I have seen some of them write that they did it at the urging of certain rights groups in order to get help or even a right to immigrate to certain countries.
6. The thought that there is some color separation is for people that have sick racial psyches. Anybody that has seen Northern Sudanese knows this.
This is some real pitiful stuff that you've just tried to pull here.
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
quote:The African regional varieties exist such as south (khoisan influenced), east, west and north (levant, medditeranian influenced). It's not as simple as a single "negro african" entity.
Yonis, as a Darod, I don't understand why you forgot the Yemeni influence that occurred in Somalia that might have affected the phenotype, especially in Northern Somaia...by the way it might also be true in Ethiopia among Amhara, Tigre, and to a certain extent among Oromos.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
THANK YOU!:
quote:Originally posted by One_and_Done: PEPI_KHEM wrote:
quote: Ey, Do you feel attacked by my question.. ?
I'm wondering why you're wailing about some group "supposedly" not liking you.
Especially since:
1. It is a generalizing and stereotyping.
2. It has been showed that whatever amounts exists, its not limited to one group.
3. Even if it was (which it is not) why do even you care? It seems very weak.
quote:Originally posted by Macawiis_Bile_Nigiish: ^Strong points and i agree!
Amen, though no bad feelings towards Pepi - we in America tend to see things negatively, a glass half empty thing.
Oh and you too, Super car/Mystery Solver. Yonis just doesn't get it.
And, I agree with the following.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: The Arab world is heterogenous and the roots of Arab culture encompasses Africa! Have you heard of the Song of Antar! This is not to dismiss some Arabs who go against the teaching of Mohammed (PBUH), who, e.g kill innocent women and children just to do so! Please do not confuse Muslim and Arab since they are not mutually exclusive. The largest Muslim populations are in Indonesia, then you have Turks, Persians (Iranians) and others who are not Arab. At times, speaking Arabic appears to make one an Arab but this has a hold on some groups and not in others! The Darfur problem is Arab speaking Africans against their Christian or animist African brethren!
quote:Originally posted by ausar: The racism probably stems from competiton and historical conquest. The ancient Arab groups felt they were superior to both whites and blacks. In the modern world blacks are considered the lowest due to the historical slave trade thus it affects how modern day Arabs percieve ''black'' Africans. Many Arabs also see ''black'' Africans as cannibals and savages. This perception is probably related to western media and of how Africans are present in Arab cinema.
Historically, it appears that blacks were see as allies and as inferiors to the Arabs. The Banil Hilal epic and Song of Antar present blacks as undiserables. In the some of the Hadiths Muhammed tells a bedouin not to disown his son because he came out black,and also of the equality all the different ethnic groups.
^ Both Yazid and Ausar are 100% correct. These are the answers to your question Pepi_Khem!
^
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I: Prognathism is not common among Sudanese Nilotic
It is among some Sudanese and other Nilo Saharan.
quote:Tutsi are related genetically to West African
.
Correct. That was a part of the point.
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
The big nosed Arab say: Enta himar Aswad towards Black Egyptian, Somali and Ethiopians...
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
Rasol, Maybe I'm wrong, but based on my observations and after copying google images about Dinka, I'm still not convinced that prognathism is common among Southern Sudanese Nilo-Saharans, maybe alveolar prognathism, is it what you mean?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: Is Arabization the fault of the Arabs or the Islamic Africans in your opinion?
Both.
The Arabs were the ones who started Arabization, but certain Islamic African peoples are the ones who continue to perpetuate it.
This thread by the way is reducing to a silly picture spamm.
Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
quote:The Arabs were the ones who started Arabization, but certain Islamic African peoples are the ones who continue to perpetuate it.
This is funny because the term "arabs were the ones who started arabization" can be misleading when dealing with the issue of racism against black africans. A considerable number of soldiers that came out of the arabian peninsula were in fact black in color as any so-called" Black African" I met alot of darfurians and southerners and they speak arabic with arabs here in the states. Yes they have received problems with egyptians and lybians and northern sudanese but they all tell me that alot of the war is politicla than any stupid racial thing.
There is a story of a arab delegation that was sent to the ethnically greek king of egypt maqauqus before the muslims opened egypt and saved them from their oppressors. The leader of " operation egypt" sent with the delegates a leader amongst them who was of a famous arab lineage. when the egyptian king saw him he said get this black away from me for his blackness cares me. thearabs told him that it was forbidden of them to do so for this black is their master and leader and was chosen by the general of the expedition. The white greek king of egypt replied that it was incumbent that such a person should be beneath you and not in front of you (representing anything). They, the arabs replied, that he is better than them in intelligence, opinion, and was chosen by the highest commander to speak on his behalf and that it was forbidden for them to contradict this black as you the white greek see him and call him. blackness does not have anything to do with any of these characteristics we have mentioned and furthermore [b]blackness is not a problem or issue with us[b].
These were the early arabs which we call the righteous predecessors. therfore racism and uglifying of blackness existed in egypt prior to arrival of the arabs as was demonstrated by the very ruler numero uno ethnically blanco greek maqauqus. I wonder how he and his ruling upper class treated the black-skinned egyptians? lets not forget that the british and french had a hand full in the nation in which to find out the british opinion of black-skinned egyptians read books by hasan albanna the progenitor of ikhwaan-ul-muslimeen in egypt. You can even see it in their old movies. straight copycat. There is a thread in one of the egyptsearch forums of an egyptian complaining about how egyptians have a wannabe khawaaga complex.
to awnser ausar's thing about alot of the arabs books contained racist overtones towards blacks first he would have to know that the very things that was stated was tooken from greek and jewish sources because that was the only info that was available. Then he would have to count the countering arab books written by the best of teh arab scholars in which the subjects of teh whole books were the eminence of black-skinned individuals and their accomplishments. These books are numerous. small groups of ignorance and ethnic superiority complexes exist in all peoples so should be a further research of groups before questions arise about why such people hate such other people.
If you read books like tarikh as-sudaan you will se info by scholars who report that white skinned people were not welcomed in the bilaad-us-sudaan and that of one ever showed his face he was in danger of being killed. It was mentioned by ibn battuta i assume that even the cannibal forest tribes didnt eat white skinned individuals because they felt he or she were not ripe. ibn battuta does comment on the ghanian or malian upper class saw themselves better than white skinned people and whould let people know that. people are human and have they own little world and are affected by the dominant one. whoever can get in were he fit in then have at it.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
abdulkarem3, nice post,but how exactly do you explain the anti-blackness present in Arabic epics like Hilian and Antar? Both have black Arabs scorned for their color but redemed in the end.
The root of the color prejudice in the modern Arab world I believe has a western origin. Most modern Arabs living in the Arab world unfortunately formulate alot of their opinions based simply on how ''black'' Africans are presented in western media. This is especially true for modern Egypt and Maghrebian countries. I don't believe the anti-black attitudes of modern day Egyptians or northern Africans comes from an ancient source but a more modern western one. Where do you believe the modern prejudice towards ''black'' Africans comes from in these countries?
Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
Ausar you're the first Egyptian i've seen who speaks about arabs as a third person, you don't consider yourself an arab?
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
No,I don't consider myself an Arab. Many modern Egyptians vary upon opinions of the Arab label but most do acknowledge the Arabic cultural and political influence in Egypt. I have no objection to the following. My only gripe with modern Egyptians identifying as ethnic Arabs is the ignorance of the Egyptian idenity before Nasser's pan-arabism.
Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
Why don't you consider yourself an arab? 99.9% of Egyptians consider themselves fully arab, i mean Egypt is like the cultural capital of the arab world, and also the arabic language and "culture" was cemented in Egypt centuries before Nassers pan-arabism campaign.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Why don't you consider yourself an arab? 99.9% of Egyptians consider themselves fully arab, i mean Egypt is like the cultural capital of the arab world, and also the arabic language and "culture" was cemented in Egypt centuries before Nassers pan-arabism campaign.
99.9%?
I'm skeptical because one told me that if I could live there and speak there language, I'd know that they consider themselves different from Arabs( though likely different from other Africans too).
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Why don't you consider yourself an arab? 99.9% of Egyptians consider themselves fully arab, i mean Egypt is like the cultural capital of the arab world, and also the arabic language and "culture" was cemented in Egypt centuries before Nassers pan-arabism campaign.
Ausar,
Forgive him for his ignorance.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Every individual has the personal right of self-determination in identification as to which ethny they consider themselves a member of and their choice must be respected. that goes for Ausar, those Imazighen who call themselves Arab, with or without any "blood" of Arab invaders or immigrants in their family tree, and the Sudanis who declare themselves Arab regardless of the ignorant who mock them while themselves eschewing any black designation assigned them by neighboring others.
It's Ausar's business and nobody elses's that he doesn't see himself as Arab. And he is not alone as various peoples in Islamic conquered lands hold onto their pre-Islam identities.
Meanwhile there are certain Jews who, without being Muslim or of any Arab tribe, assume the identity Arab-Jews (particularly Iraqi Jews who were there a millenia before any groups from the Arabian peninsula conquered Iraq, but also Syrian Jews and other Jews hailing from socio-political "Arab" countries).
Remember, all Arabs today are Mustaribes, i.e., Arabs due to acculturating to Arab language and custom etc. The story of Antar goes to show that Arabization is what in the end makes one an Arab par excellance.
And getting back to the subject header's question, it's really a culture and nationality issue more than a colour one.
As evidence I offer the following incidents of current black Arabs of African antecedence whether of hajji parentage or ancient imigree parentage or Arab parentage of the known black indigenous Arabs (Arab Aribe) whose tribes were enumerated in al~Jahiz's famous work.
In Saudi Arabia (the Arab Muslim land par excellance) you have * Prince Bandar bin Sultan, ambassador; * Dr. Abdullah Masry, deputy minister of culture; * Sheikh Hussein El-Kadi, deputy manager of agricultural bank; * Dr. Ahmad Muhammad Ali, president of islamic development bank; all of whom are phenotypically inner African in physical feature.
How many African origin blacks outside of the Americas hold any such of the above named type of offices in the lands of their diaspora or in Pacific/eastern Indian Ocean countries of their 'indigenence' where invaders now rule?
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
Yes, even in SW Asia, there are alot who are holding fast to their pre-Islam identities, and do not wish to be called Arabs.
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
quote:Ausar,
Forgive him for his ignorance.
Either Yonis is stupid or he's playing some games, Ausar is a Black Egytpian, he's not arabized...
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
quote:How many African origin blacks outside of the Americas hold any such of the above named type of offices in the lands of their diaspora or in Pacific/eastern Indian Ocean countries of their 'indigenence' where invaders now rule?
Most of Black Africans wouldn't care about the people above who are certainly mixed as many African Americans...they don't care...
Posted by songhai (Member # 13721) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: No,I don't consider myself an Arab. Many modern Egyptians vary upon opinions of the Arab label but most do acknowledge the Arabic cultural and political influence in Egypt. I have no objection to the following. My only gripe with modern Egyptians identifying as ethnic Arabs is the ignorance of the Egyptian idenity before Nasser's pan-arabism.
What you say probably has much currency for Sudanese as well. When I was an active member of a Muslim community here in the US as a graduate student, I remember one Sudanese sister telling me during a conversation about race relations that she doesn't consider herself 'Arab', even though she speaks fluent Arabic. What had not occurred to me prior to this conversation was that there apparently are many Sudanese who speak their own nubian languages at home. She and her husband, an engineering professor at the University, do not speak Arabic at home.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Ausar write: No,I don't consider myself an Arab.
I hope Yonis is listening to this, as he thinks every African who can speak Arabic is happy to be considered Arab.
Anyway, I think one interpretation of Jihadic Islam by Arabs can be likened to Crusader Christainity in Europe.
It is really and excuse for ethnic-imperialism and violence [which are universal human vices].
Native Africans, including Egyptian, Sudanese, Amazigh and others were the most vulnerable to Arab/pseudo-Islamic/Imperialism.
It's less that Arabs 'choose to hate' Blacks, and more that they have been able to get away with degradations of Blacks, that they have not been able to ply or Sustain against whites, or Jews for instance.
Make no mistake - Arab/Jihadic/Islam never had any moral proscribtion against enslaving whites - especially white women as sex slaves, and they would still do so, if they could get away with it.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote: I'm still not convinced that prognathism is common among Southern Sudanese Nilo-Saharans, maybe alveolar prognathism, is it what you mean?
I don't understand the question. It seems to imply that alveolar prognathism -isn't- real prognathism?
Prognathism is simply protrusion of the jaw.
Alveolar refers to the upper jaw.
When anthropologists mention that early Nile Valley Africans *and* the earliest farmers of the "middle east" Natufian Isreal, had prognathism they are certainly including alveolar prognathism, and doubtless modern nile valley Africans are related to these peoples.
Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I:
quote:Ausar,
Forgive him for his ignorance.
Either Yonis is stupid or he's playing some games, Ausar is a Black Egytpian, he's not arabized...
What the hell are you talking about? Almost all Egyptians speak arabic as first language thus that makes ausar arabized, unless ausar doesn't speak arabic anymore.
quote:rasol: I hope Yonis is listening to this, as he thinks every African who can speak Arabic is happy to be considered Arab.
No i don't think so! Both my parents and older siblings speak fluently arabic but they for sure don't consider themselves arabs they have their native language intact, also Yom speaks fluently arabic but he obviously doesn't consider himself arab as he has his own native language. But in Egyptians case they have lost their language long time ago, and arabic is the only language the majority know. I have never heard of an Egyptian who don't consider himself an arab and i've met alot, so that's why i'm interested in how come ausar talks about arabs as a third person, maybe he doesn't speak arabic anymore which might be an explanation. Hey ausar do you speak arabic? If not then what do you consider your native language, English? Coptic is a dead language so it can't be an alternative.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:No i don't think so! Both my parents and older siblings speak fluently arabic but they for sure don't consider themselves arabs they have their native language intact, also Yom speaks fluently arabic but he obviously doesn't consider himself arab as he has his own native language.
Good, i'm glad that you clarified this, because I recall your saying otherwise, but then you tend to make knowingly specious remarks just to be arguing something outragious, which essentially characterises the rest of your nonsensical post....
quote:But in Egyptians case they have lost their language long time ago, and arabic is the only language the majority know.
How is this relevant? African Americans and Australian Aboriginene lost their langauges long ago, and are mostly anglo-phones. But they are not English anymore than Somali are Arab.
quote:I have never heard of an Egyptian who don't consider himself an arab
^ Ah yes, now you are back to making knowingly lying claims again.
Do you mean you've never heard and Egyptian say he doesn't consider himself and Arab 'until now'?
Are you denying that Ausar is and Egyptian?
Or are you denying that you just heard and Egyptian tell you that he doesn't consider himself and Arab?
Precisely what element of this reality are you denial of and which allows you to make the lying claim that you never heard....what you just heard?
quote:and i've met alot
If you'd met many Copts you'd know that a great many of them do not consider themselves Arabs.
The idea of Egyptians being Arabs is primarily propaganda.
All you you do is promote by a kind of willfull selective amnesia and general weakmindedness.
quote: might be he doesn't speak Arabic anymore which might be an explanation.
It doesn't matter whether he speaks Arabic or not, speaking Arabic doesn't make you and Arab. Not everyone is as easily brainwashed as you imagine them to be Yonis.
quote: Coptic is a dead language so it can't be an alternative.
This is a non-sequitur. Questions rooted in non-sequiturs do not require -alternative- answers.
Your post is completely ridiculous.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
^Mind you rasol. The Somalis don't consider themself Arabs, and I have never EVER met someone who said he was an Arab. In fact I know Somalis who see the Arabs as weak and inferior.
But since our Prophet (pbuh) was an Arab, we respect them, but not if they cross their boundaries.
Someone said: “Islam is the greatest religion, but it has the worst followers”,
And I think he/she meant the Arabs.
The Arabs today are exactly like their ancestors before the Prophet's(pbuh) times.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
I don't mind Yonis or anybody asking me such questions because I am rather secure with my idenity. Also I have nothing against Egyptians identying or not identifying with Arabs but I have my reservations with doing do. Indeed, the modern language of Egypt is Arabic and alot of us share cultural and political affiliations with Arabs. The problem is there is no balance or understanding that Egyptians are cultural not ethnically Arabic people. Some Westeners and others automatically assume that Arab denotes some homogenous nationality ranging from northern Africa to Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, there is a whole political hot potato within Egypt itself that comes with the Arab idenity.
Many non-Egyptians are also ignorant of the pre-Nasserite idenity and why pan-Arabism arose in Egypt. A whole era exists well before Nasser or Pan-Arabism was ever considered as Egypt's destiny. Personally, I would like to see Egypt embrace its own idenity while also embracing the Arab one. Unfortunately it appears these two idenities are clasing and the unique Egyptian one is being silenced for the pan-arab agenda.
I hope this clarifies everything,Yonis.
Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
ausar
quote:abdulkarem3, nice post,but how exactly do you explain the anti-blackness present in Arabic epics like Hilian and Antar? Both have black Arabs scorned for their color but redemed in the end.
These arabic epics that you are bringing up are called times of jahiliyya(period of ignorance). The color black was abhorred in these times and when the revelation of the quraan and sunnah of the the prophet muhammad came majority of the arabs did not practice color distinction and that is not to say that there existed arab sub-groups who did not come in contact with the proper training of how to deal with other arabs who were of a different hue than them. You must remember there is no sense of arab nationality. Each ethnic group identified itself as its ethnic group first and loyalties was established on kin and not linguistics or nationality nor skin color, this was not even concieved of until modern times. the epithet of arab is actually an exonomen. the first 3 generation of muslims saw their first identity as muslims first and whatever second. The identity of being arab and superior began to creep in to the muslim society after the first 3 early generations of muslims. This is mainly due to the expansion of the islamic empire into foriegn lands were books were being translated into arabic and knowledge from non-arabic cultures began to merge. In this different factions of muslims based off belief alone began to exacerbate and civil anarchy was at its highest. Therefore weird beliefs ranging from creed to color distinction began to steer away from the teachings of god and his messenger.
Also the epics that you bring up today does not conclude that color discrimination was a one way deal. You are not aware of the fact that the leading most tribe to have any distinction in jahiliyya times was al-quraish, the very tribe in which the prophet was from in which all his uncles including his father was of a blackskinned hue as is stated in the fadel ibn abbas's poem(the poet of the quraish). In one of his proses he uses the very fact that he is black skinned to justify himself being an authentic arab. You are not aware that arabs who were light skinned were accused of being from foriegn origin and were given special names like mazawaad riqaab. Im sure you must know the prophet muhammad's(saw) speech in which he said there is no superiority of the black over the white, so there would be no need to mention such a thing even without the previous evidences. It was known that dark skinned individuals ranging from black to yellow were the norm in their lands. so these epics were individual tribes who could speak for the rest of pre-islamic arab society. Also in mentioning, the color factor went both ways. Any other occurances are foriegn based cultures and historical events which shaped the latter generations who were steering away from the correct teachings of the religion. This is why, as i mentioned before,there were books written ex. al-jahiz, al-jawwzi, etc. correcting these matters. The disobedience of the muslims to listen to their rightly guided scholars took them down as concerning power and put them in a subjugating role rather than the former. So what you have in modern times are a hodgepodge of creeds and methodoligies. This ranges like i said before from how to believe in god to how to treat people of different ethnicities. Muslims worldwide are very ignorant of their religion and when they practice the religion like the first 3 generations then they will get back the dominance they once had from before mimicking the triumphant victories of islaam as the founding forefathers who took over lands because they practiced their religion as instructed and not as you see practiced today.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Ausar is a Fellah is he not? Which means he is Egyptian period; not Arab Egyptian!
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: [QB] ^Mind you rasol. The Somalis don't consider themself Arabs, and I have never EVER met someone who said he was an Arab. In fact I know Somalis who see the Arabs as weak and inferior.
I agree with this, so, no need to remind me.
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
quote:It seems to imply that alveolar prognathism -isn't- real prognathism?
It doesn't seem that prognathism among Dinkas is different from Somalis's prognathism when it does occur, usually alveolar prognathism. I pretty familiar with Dinka people and Somali, and prognathism seems to be fairly similar among both groups.
Posted by Serpent Wizdom (Member # 7652) on :
quote:Originally posted by One_and_Done: Djehuti wrote:
quote: There is nothing "uneducated" or even inaccurate about what I stated about the Darfur situation!
You are right that there has always been ethnic strife there, but never to the degree that has been going on recently and now! Much of the intensity and disgusting nature of the acts that the nomads perpertrate are because of the simple fact that they are Arabized i.e. wanna-be Arabs who hate their non Arabized brethren!
Arab Militiamen in Sudan Said to Use Rape as Weapon of Ethnic Cleansing
By Emily Wax Washington Post Foreign Service Wednesday, June 30, 2004; Page A01
GENEINA, Sudan, June 29 -- At first light on Sunday, three young women walked into a scrubby field just outside their refugee camp in West Darfur. They had gone out to collect straw for their family's donkeys. They recalled thinking that the Arab militiamen who were attacking African tribes at night would still be asleep. But six men grabbed them, yelling Arabic slurs such as "zurga" and "abid," meaning "black" and "slave." Then the men raped them, beat them and left them on the ground, they said.
"They grabbed my donkey and my straw and said, 'Black girl, you are too dark. You are like a dog. We want to make a light baby,' " said Sawela Suliman, 22, showing slashes from where a whip had struck her thighs as her father held up a police and health report with details of the attack. "They said, 'You get out of this area and leave the child when it's made.' "...
This is so obviously propagandic that it makes you wonder about the intelligence of someone that would fall for it. Looks like some white boys fantasy gone wild. You can almost see the white clown writing it.
You fall for any negative propaganda that some white media person throws out. I guess you really do have the "Simon Says" syndrome that has been ascribed to you.
Here is an article from this same woman in 2006. Even though I don't like posting links everywhere under the sun, I'll post it this time.
Now in the above the woman is saying the exact opposite of her earlier propaganda. Two years later.
You fall for anything that media projects onto you when its something negative about Africans. That is just outright demented.
I'll end with some points:
1. There is a cold war between certain nations over Africa's resources.
2. There is a need to portray a certain group of people in a certain region as hostile and needing to be invaded and subjigated.
3. There is a need to portray a certain group of people on a certain continent as helpless, pathetic losers in order to justify coming and rescuing them for humanitarian causes.
4. Both this certain region and this certain continent are filled to the rim with natural resources.
5. I have seen western and southern sudanese rebels say that slavery were lies they used. I have seen some of them write that they did it at the urging of certain rights groups in order to get help or even a right to immigrate to certain countries.
6. The thought that there is some color separation is for people that have sick racial psyches. Anybody that has seen Northern Sudanese knows this.
This is some real pitiful stuff that you've just tried to pull here.
One and Done, you must read information about the Dafar situation from Kola Boofs' web site...
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
Arab from the peninsula don't look like your regular leucoderm, they don't even look like North Africans from the Maghreb(who are more leucoderm and can often look like your typical Southern European especially in the North), they look like a mix of Indians, (Broad Faced Africans) Bantu African, and Central Asian...real mulatto...I have some friends from the Maghreb who describe Saudi as son of Indians because of their look, however they say that the Yemeni are the purest Arabs, but I think it's just the phenotype that make them uncomfortable with Saudi. But I'm not sure about the fact that Yemeni and Saudi are that different. Typical Arab from the Gulf: Although the King of Jordan is from the Levant he wouldn't look out of place in Ryadh with his broad faced bantu looking face.
I think people here simplify things...in Africa people look more at the features than the skin...so your so called "White Arab" can just be viewed like a mulatto from an African perspective because of his mixed features...the color of the skin is secondary...that's one of the reasons I always say that Europeans and Asians look mixed for me...the skin color is secondary and science can back me up on that: skeletal an cranial shape is more indicative of someone's origin than the skin color or the shape of the hair.... As an example there are quite a few Somali who are as dark as Southern Sudanese but with the typical long faced and nosed Somali, he would be viewed as a Somali, however a broad faced, broad nosed Somali with very light skin can be confounded with a Kikuyu or a Congolese by Somali and other Africans...if his hair are curly like an Arab and he has a very light skin, he can even be confounded with a Yemeni...
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
Why elongated Africans dislike big nosed, brachycephalic European, Arab and other Africans? Unfortunately these are features that are shared by White American,Europeans, Arabs and Africans...let's talk about real African taste and not North American and European taste...and let's see where the conversation leads us...
Posted by leofrombrazil (Member # 18061) on :
NO man, look at me, i am half arab, and half, portuguese, german, and some of west afro about 1,5% or 3%, the most african look i have is arabian, from east afro, i think about 7%, the arabian blood is from syrian origin, i guess my afro blood could be from egypt delta and ethiopians, but we will look like the european people: who is more white?, it's not a think man care about, look portuguese people is almost of ancient moroccan origin, with visigoths, they don't say have moroccan blood but celtic blood!, that is ridiculous, i know saudi people have problem to be arab and different from east afro, but think about brazil, my country, here people don't like to have west afro blood, i think is ridiculous too, how far it will go, this people built all the things we see, they was the do hard labor, look at Angola grows 35% per annum, the highest growth worldwide.
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Yonis just doesn't get it.
