quote:

---

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/july/berber.html


Introduction

The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.

Consonants

Berber consonants include:

glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation;
implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward;
ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out;
geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts.
Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.

Grammar

Noun phrase

Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.

Verb phrase

Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.

Vocabulary

Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.

---

The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.

Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).

The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.


..

.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The linguistic evidence makes it clear that Romans , Greeks and other Europeans have influenced the Berbers.

Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language. The Afro-Asiatic languages do not exit.


I have never read that Tuareg has any Indo-European elements. Tuareg, as opposed to the other Berber languages is closely related to Hausa and Songhay.

Andre Basset in La Langue Berbere, has discussed the I-E elements in the Berber languages. There is also a discussion of these elements in Schuchardt, Die romanischen Lehnworter im Berberischen (Wien,1918). Basset provides a few examples in his monograph. I have posted the page so you can examine the material yourself.





You can also consult Note di geografia linguistica berbera more ,by Vermondo Brugnatelli :
http://unimib.academia.edu/VermondoBrugnatelli/Papers/1098593/Note_di_geografia_linguistica_berbera


.

.







Obenga made it clear that AfroAsiatic does not exist and you can not reconstruct the Proto-language.

This is true. Ehret (1995) and Orel/Stolbova (1995) were attempts at comparing Proto-AfroAsiatic. The most interesting fact about these works is that they produced different results. If AfroAsiatic existed they should have arrived at similar results. The major failur of these works is that there is too much synononymy. For example, the Proto-AfroAsiatic synonym for bird has 52 synonyms this is far too many for a single term and illustrates how the researchers just correlated a number of languages to produce a proto-form.

This supports Obenga's view that you can not reconstruct Afro-Asiatic. It is assumed that if languages are related you should be able to reconstruct the proto-language of the language family.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.

---

the Robert Graves quote





.


The Garamantes (probably from Berber language: igherman; meaning: cities


were a Saharan people who used an elaborate underground irrigation system, and founded a prosperous Berber kingdom in the Fezzan area of modern-day Libya, in the Sahara desert. They were a local power in the Sahara between 500 BC and 700 AD.

There is little textual information about the Garamantes. Even the name Garamantes was a Greek name which the Romans later adopted. Available information comes mainly from Greek and Roman sources, as well as archaeological excavations in the area, though large areas in ruins remain unexcavated.

according to Herodotus, they were "a very great nation" who herded cattle, farmed dates, and hunted the "Ethiopian Troglodytes", or "cave-dwellers" who lived in the desert, from four-horse chariots.


______________________________________________________________




 

---

Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
 
The Garamante or desert Mande created Crete and Greek civilization. The Mande of Crete probably created Etruscan and early Italian civilization.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

500 BC - 700 AD.
Germa known in ancient times as Garama,
Zinchecra, was located not far from the later Garama, an earlier capital

The Garmantes have since mixed into the North African population
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

500 BC - 700 AD.
Germa known in ancient times as Garama,
Zinchecra, was located not far from the later Garama, an earlier capital

The Garmantes have since mixed into the North African population

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

500 BC - 700 AD.
Germa known in ancient times as Garama,
Zinchecra, was located not far from the later Garama, an earlier capital

The Garmantes have since mixed into the North African population

---

There is mo evidence of this happening. Plese give us the date this mixture took place, given the fact they migrated to the Niger Valley.

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This theory is interesting

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan

---

The Garmantes lived in Fezzan approximatly 5th century BCE to the 5th century CE (possibly later) operating the Trans-Saharan trade routes successively between Carthage and the Roman Empire in North Africa and Sahelian states of west and central Africa. Inter-mixtures with all of these people is possible


Their descendants are thought to be berber speaking Tuareg
whose territory includes Niger, Libya and other locations in North Africa and the Sahel. No surprise the Tuareg territory overlaps Garama and also extends to Niger

Tuareg territory
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

500 BC - 700 AD.
Germa known in ancient times as Garama,
Zinchecra, was located not far from the later Garama, an earlier capital

The Garmantes have since mixed into the North African population

---

There is mo evidence of this happening. Plese give us the date this mixture took place, given the fact they migrated to the Niger Valley.

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This theory is interesting

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan

---

The Garmantes lived in Fezzan approximatly 5th century BCE to the 5th century CE (possibly later) operating the Trans-Saharan trade routes successively between Carthage and the Roman Empire in North Africa and Sahelian states of west and central Africa. Inter-mixtures with all of these people is possible


Their descendants are thought to be berber speaking Tuareg
whose territory includes Niger, Libya and other locations in North Africa and the Sahel. No surprise the Tuareg territory overlaps Garama and also extends to Niger

Tuareg territory

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.

---

the Robert Graves quote





.


The Garamantes (probably from Berber language: igherman; meaning: cities


were a Saharan people who used an elaborate underground irrigation system, and founded a prosperous Berber kingdom in the Fezzan area of modern-day Libya, in the Sahara desert. They were a local power in the Sahara between 500 BC and 700 AD.

There is little textual information about the Garamantes. Even the name Garamantes was a Greek name which the Romans later adopted. Available information comes mainly from Greek and Roman sources, as well as archaeological excavations in the area, though large areas in ruins remain unexcavated.

according to Herodotus, they were "a very great nation" who herded cattle, farmed dates, and hunted the "Ethiopian Troglodytes", or "cave-dwellers" who lived in the desert, from four-horse chariots.


______________________________________________________________

---

sure!


Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.
Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.

Source


Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.


Abstract


"The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region."


And ...


"Despite the difference, Gebel Ramlah [the Western Desert- Saharan region] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis, and Badari.." [the Badarians ]are a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like"


--(Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.)




They've always been an indigenous African population.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Clyde says no berbers are related to Garamantes.
Either you believe that or you don't. that is the topic of the thread.

Clyde,
Troll Patrol is suggestng the above is a picture of a girl descended from the Garmante. What do you think?
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
This paper does not claim the Garamantes were linked to Berbers.

quote:

---

Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.
Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.

Source


Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.


Abstract


"The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region."

---

quote:

---

And ...


"Despite the difference, Gebel Ramlah [the Western Desert- Saharan region] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis, and Badari.." [the Badarians ]are a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like"


--(Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.)




They've always been an indigenous African population.

---

 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
..

Berbers


.
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.
Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.

Source


Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.


Abstract


"The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow.

Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact.

The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region."



Roman Gladiators


The lack of continuity between populations corresponds to the introduction of modern Europeans into North Africa 3kya e.g., Peoples of the Sea, Vandals, Greco-Romans.

.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Clyde, Berber languages originated among East African populations 3-5,000 years ago. These were all black African people. The languages were spread to North Africa by migratory nomadic groups who settled in various parts of the Sahara, Western Egypt and Northern Sudan and eventually into coastal North Africa. All the evidence speaks to this. The origin of Berber languages have absolutely nothing to do with Europe and everything to do with Africa and black Africans.

The primary impact of these population movements were in language and culture, because the people themselves were relatively small in number because the areas that they inhabited and migrated through were some of the driest and hottest in the region. Later migrations of Europeans and others mixed with these folks to form the coastal Berber speaking populations that we see today and many of these later arrivals blended their cultures and languages with that of the Africans. That does not make Berber a European language or affiliated with Europeans. It is not.

Ge'ez Ethiopia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1H7A0zxtZc

Ahmaric music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDLWzvPQ2Ko

Ethiopian T.V.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liBGlV4CAQo
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Clyde, Berber languages originated among East African populations 3-5,000 years ago. These were all black African people. The languages were spread to North Africa by migratory nomadic groups who settled in various parts of the Sahara, Western Egypt and Northern Sudan and eventually into coastal North Africa. All the evidence speaks to this. The origin of Berber languages have absolutely nothing to do with Europe and everything to do with Africa and black Africans.

The primary impact of these population movements were in language and culture, because the people themselves were relatively small in number because the areas that they inhabited and migrated through were some of the driest and hottest in the region. Later migrations of Europeans and others mixed with these folks to form the coastal Berber speaking populations that we see today and many of these later arrivals blended their cultures and languages with that of the Africans. That does not make Berber a European language or affiliated with Europeans. It is not.

Ge'ez Ethiopia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1H7A0zxtZc

Ahmaric music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDLWzvPQ2Ko

Ethiopian T.V.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liBGlV4CAQo

---

quote:

---

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/july/berber.html


Introduction

The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.

Consonants

Berber consonants include:

glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation;
implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward;
ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out;
geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts.
Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.

Grammar

Noun phrase

Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.

Verb phrase

Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.

Vocabulary

Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.

---

The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.

Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).

The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.


.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ We've told crazy Clyde this how many times now and on how many threads for the past years he's been posting in this forum, yet he refuses to accept the FACTS and clings on to this silly lie that Berber originated in Europe even though there is NO evidence that Berber was ever spoken in Europe as a native language.

Doug, I don't know what those videos on Ethiopia has anything to do with the issue but you are right that Berber languages are related to Ethiopian and Egyptian languages but apparently close to Chadic languages like Hausa in Nigeria as well!

By the way, here are some past threads on Garamantes:

Garamantes nonmetric traits

the Garamantes a ancient african civilization in the sahara/north africa

A Garamante origin to the Egyptian society?

Clyde needs to stop with the nonsense.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
You need to put the videos with some Berber videos to see the similarities....

Clyde is something else.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Now that you mention it, I remember you posting a bunch of videos on Saharan Berbers whose dances and rituals do bear a resemblance to Ethiopians.

As far as Clyde, he is stuck on one of the few errors that Cheik Anta Diop made which is that Berber is of European origin. Diop was a brilliant scholar, but obviously far from perfect.

The Berber problem for Anta Diop

The Berbers as "of European Origin"

The Berber Languages are of European Origin

In Clyde's crazy world, Berber which is spoken exclusively in Africa is not African yet Dravidian which is spoken exclusively in Asia somehow is! LOL
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Clyde anbody can see Tifinagh is a combination of
Mande and Phoenician
 

---

Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
I've proposed a while ago, based on linguistic and archaeological evidence that the Garamantes were related in some way to the Kel Tamasheq ("Tuareg").

Some of those ideas were laid out here
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
This is the most silliest Pseudo-historic piece of sh*t that I've ever read...

The Garamantes were BERBERS!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


TUAREG BERBERS FROM NIGER

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
This is the most silliest Pseudo-historic piece of sh*t that I've ever read...

The Garamantes were BERBERS!

---

It's not silly or psuedo scientific to see the possibility that Tuareg berbers might have been descended form Garamantes
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


CARTHAGE



The Garmantes operated the Trans-Saharan
trade routes between Carthage and
the Roman Empire in North Africa
and Sahelian states of west and central Africa.
Inter-mixtures with any of these people is possible
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

This is the most silliest Pseudo-historic piece of sh*t that I've ever read...

The Garamantes were BERBERS!

---

Yeah, well Clyde Winters is more than just a pseudo-scholar. He is a psychopath! He claims 'Berber' is not native to Africa but introduced from somewhere else (Europe?!) even though it is part of the same language phylum as Chadic, Egyptic, and other Afrisian languages. Meanwhile he claims the Dravidian languages of India to be African [sic]!! LMAO
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

This is the most silliest Pseudo-historic piece of sh*t that I've ever read...

The Garamantes were BERBERS!

---

Yeah, well Clyde Winters is more than just a pseudo-scholar. He is a psychopath! He claims 'Berber' is not native to Africa but introduced from somewhere else (Europe?!) even though it is part of the same language phylum as Chadic, Egyptic, and other Afrisian languages. Meanwhile he claims the Dravidian languages of India to be African [sic]!! LMAO

---

LOl...Psychopath? Don't you think that's a bit harsh?

But yeah the Berber language is definitely African and the proto Berbers are definitely from from North-East Africa. If Berbers are not African then where did their African E-M81 come from which goes as far as 80% in certain Berber groups.

The Dravidian language is obviously South Asian in origin. Anyone who says its Mande in origins should get their brains checked and QUICK!

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Could all ancient Greek known Libyans be "Berbers"?

I don't know about Garamantes being Berbers. Where
is the hard linquistic evidence for whatever forms of
speech they used? I have it there are grave markers
written by Garamantes. Can someone produce.

I also doubt close relationship between Garamantes
and the "classic Berbers" of Africa's Mediterranean
littoral. Only aDNA from Garamante samples can
assure that one way or the other.

Meanwhile what cultural traits link Garamantes to
"Berbers" (for those of you who feel Berber is an
ethnic group)?


Some archaeologists/historians have interpreted the so-called
'Libyco-Berbers' in contact with the earlier civilization of Dhar
Tichitt -- forerunner to Wagadu (old Ghana) -- to have been
Garamantes.

Ancient pre-Islam era trade from the Aukar/Tagant, to the Joliba's
(Niger's) parabola to Air and on to the north, seems to have been
under Garamante control at least in its last legs. Garamante for
sure were the last leg in the north bound trade from Tibesti and
from pre-Kanem.

Graves (1955) wrote well before 1980 and old ideas like the Joliba
being the Gir of the Greco-Latin writers are unfounded. Froebenius
wanted to see a short form of Garamante in the mention of the
city Jerra (first of the four names of Wagadu) in the Dausi epic,
also that the Fasa of could be a short form for Fezzan peoples.
In Greek mythology Garamas, aka Amphithemis, is the son of a
Minoan woman named Akakallis in the days of the Argonauts
who settled in Libya .

I don't think Nasamonians were a subset of Garamantes
so the above Garamas seems not to be the same one as in

quote:

---

THE OLYMPIAN CREATION MYTH

At the beginning of all things Mother Earth emerged from Chaos
and bore her son Uranus as she slept.
. . .

b. Her first children of semi-human form were the hundred-handed
giants Briareus, Gyges, and Cottus.
. . .

c. The Libyans, however, claim that Garamas was born before the
Hundred-handed Ones and that, when he rose from the plain, he
offered Mother Earth a sacrifice of the sweet acorn.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
I don't know about Garamantes being Berbers. Where
is the hard linquistic evidence for whatever forms of
speech they used? I have it there are grave markers
written by Garamantes. Can someone produce.

---

quote:

---

The trephinations described in the present communication are in accordance with the archaeological evidence for the use of this practice in North Africa. Indeed, as mentioned previously, trephinations have been widely applied in Egypt and possibly in Nubia. However, the practice has never been reported in the central Saharan desert with the exception of the modern Tibu or Teda of Tibesti. To conclude, the trephinations among the Garamantes presented here are the first archaeological cases described from the Sahara. These examples add to the body of evidence that suggests the longterm and widespread use of cranial surgical techniques in North Africa.

Nikita 2011
Evidence of Trephinations among the Garamantes

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
I see nothing peculiar about those traits especially the former
besides Maurusians bowing out millennia before taMazight existed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
But please trace Fezzanis backwards from today to Garamante times.

---

I'm not sure that the Tuareg ethno-genesis stretches that far back in time, though I may be wrong. I'm sure there is at least something to glean from looking at the populations who inhabit the Fezzan today, and slowly excluding unlikely matches like Arabs and Tebu who seem to have arrived later. How many non-Berber indigenous groups are there today in the Fezzan? Is there credence to maps like these?


 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Imazighen are the people speaking Tamazight. That
is my definition. Before North Africans began to
speak Tamazight lects they were not "Berbers."

Garamantia is within "Berber" timeframes. Their
scripted records will reveal if and when they
utilized a Tamazight tongue.

Kel Tamasheq ethno-genesis is post Garamantia.
I haven't read any origin mythos by them that
remembers anything like Garamantia a solid and
extensive political state.

I don't see Teda entering Fezzan any later than
the Kels. I guess that map is as good as any.
Does it jibe with other similar maps? There's
some Xian missionary group very concerned with
African ethnic groups. Maybe I'm simple to do
it but I value their ethnic maps because the
time they put in the field and the stakes they
place in what they do.




I wish they did a Ghadames&Ghat Tuareg map but they don't and so

.

I also have no idea how much Libyan beduin are indigenous but



Qadhafi was beduin and his facial bone structure was sure not Arabian Arab.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Imazighen are the people speaking Tamazight. That
is my definition. Before North Africans began to
speak Tamazight lects they were not "Berbers."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Kel Tamasheq ethno-genesis is post Garamantia.
I haven't read any origin mythos by them that
remembers anything like Garamantia a solid and
extensive political state.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
I don't see Teda entering Fezzan any later than
the Kels. I guess that map is as good as any.
Does it jibe with other similar maps? There's
some Xian missionary group very concerned with
African ethnic groups. Maybe I'm simple to do
it but I value their ethnic maps because the
time they put in the field and the stakes they
place in what they do.

---

code:

---

COMMON INDO-AFRICAN TERMS

ENGLISH    DRAVIDIAN      SENEGALESE        MANDING
MOTHER        AMMA          AMA,MEEN          MA
FATHER    APPAN,ABBA       AMPA,BAABA         BA
PREGNANCY   BASARU          BIIR              BARA
SKIN          URI          NGURU,GURI         GURU
BLOOD       NETTARU         DERET             DYERI
KING       MANNAN          MAANSA,OMAAD        MANSA
GRAND      BIIRA           BUUR                BA
SALIVA     TUPPAL          TUUDDE              TU
CULTIVATE  BEY            ,MBEY            BE
BOAT       KULAM           GAAL                KULU
FEATHER    SOOGE           SIIGE               SI, SIGI
MOUNTAIN    KUNRU          TUUD                KURU
ROCK       KALLU           XEER                KULU
STREAM     KOLLI           KAL                 KOLI

---

code:

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English                Senegalese            Dravidian
body                   W. yaram                 uru
head                   D. fuko,xoox              kukk
hair                   W. kawar                 kavaram 'shoot'
eye                    D. kil                   kan, khan
mouth                  D. butum                 baayi, vaay
lip                    W. tun,F. tondu          tuti
heart                  W. xol,S. xoor           karalu
pup                    W. kuti                  kutti
sheep                  W. xar                   'ram'
cow                    W. nag                   naku
hoe                    W. konki                
bronze                 W. xanjar                xancara
blacksmith             W. kamara               
skin                      dol                   tool
mother                 W. yaay                   aayi
child                  D. kunil                  kunnu, kuuci
ghee                     o-new                   ney

---

Above we provided linguistic examples from many different African Supersets (Families) including the Mande and Niger-Congo groups to prove the analogy between Dravidian and Black African languages. The evidence is clear that the Dravidian and Black African languages should be classed in a family called Indo-African as suggested by Th. Obenga. This data further supports the archaeological evidence accumulated by Dr. B.B Lal (1963) which proved that the Dravidians originated in the Fertile African Crescent.

The major grain exploited by Saharan populations was rice ,the yam and pennisetum. McIntosh and McIntosh (1988) has shown that the principal domesticate in the southern Sahara was bulrush millet. There has been considerable debate concerning the transport of African millets to India. Weber (1998) believes that African millets may have come to India by way of Arabia. Wigboldus (1996) on the other hand argues that African millets may have arrived from Africa via the Indian Ocean in Harappan times.

Both of these theories involve the transport of African millets from a country bordering on the Indian Ocean. Yet, Weber (1998) and Wigboldus (1996) were surprised to discover that African millets and bicolor sorghum , did not reach many East African countries until millennia after they had been exploited as a major subsistence crop at Harappan and Gujarat sites.

This failure to correlate the archaeological evidence of African millets in countries bordering on the Indian Ocean, and the antiquity of African millets in India suggest that African millets such as Pennisetum and Sorghum must have come to India from another part of Africa. To test this hypothesis we will compare Dravidian and African terms for millet.

Winters (1985) has suggested that the Proto-Dravidians formerly lived in the Sahara. This is an interesting theory, because it is in the Sahara that the earliest archaeological pennisetum has been found.

Millet impressions have been found on Mande ceramics from both Karkarchinkat in the Tilemsi Valley of Mali, and Dar Tichitt in Mauritania between 4000 and 3000 BP. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1983a,1988; Winters 1986b; Andah 1981)

Given the archaeological evidence for millets in the Sahara, leads to the corollary theory that if the Dravidians originated in Africa, they would share analogous terms for millet with African groups that formerly lived in the Sahara.
The linguistic and anthropological data make it clear that the Dravidian speaking people were part of the C-Group people who formed the backbone of the Niger-Congo speakers. It indicates that the Dravidians took there red-and-black pottery with them from Africa to India, and the cultivation of millet. The evidence makes it clear that the genetic evidence indicating a Holocene migration to India for the Dravidian speaking people is wrong. The Dravidian people given the evidence for the first cultivation of millet and red-and-black pottery is firmly dated and put these cultural elements in the Neolithic. The evidence makes it clear that genetic evidence can not be used to effectively document historic population movements.

There is mtDNA data uniting Africans and Dravidians.


Can Parallel Mutation and neutral genome selection explain Eastern African M1 consensus HVS-1 motifs in Indian M haplogroup
http://www.bioline.org.br/pdf?hg07022

Did the Dravidian Speakers Originate in Africa
http://academia.edu.documents.s3.amazonaws.com/1773184/PossibleDraOrigin.pdf

Origin and Spread of Dravidian Speakers

http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Journals/IJHG/IJHG-08-0-000-000-2008-Web/IJHG-08-4-317-368-2008-Abst-PDF/IJHG-08-4-325-08-362-Winder-C/IJHG-08-4-325-08-362-Winder-C-Tt.pdf

Sickle Cell Anemia in Africa and India

http://www.ispub.com/journal/the_internet_journal_of_hematology/volume_7_number_1_40/article/sickle-cell-anemia-in-india-and-africa.html

Y-Chromosome evidence of African Origin of Dravidian Agriculture

http://www.academicjournals.org/ijgmb/PDF/pdf2010/Mar/Winters.pdf

.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa, or ancient Crete and the Fezzan.The Garamantes were Mande speakers not Berbers.




The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers.Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.



Some Grecian traditions indicate that Fezzanese(called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.


A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.

This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.

The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.


Keftiu


The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.


Keftiu
The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.

On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:

Keftiu....... Manding

sh h.r........ Sye

Nsy ..........Nsye

'ksh .........Nkyi

Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)

'dm ..........Demba

Rs............. Rsa

This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.

In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language.
.

.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Here we have three examples of Mande writing the first picture is writing from a modern site.

Picture 2 is writing on the Tuxtla statuette from Mexico.

Picture 3 writing during the chariot age of the Garamantes.

.







.


Note the symbol made up of squares with dots inside.




.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

[/QB]

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^^^^ the above is from the following wikipedia entry


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Libya#Ethnic_and_tribal_groups



Demographics of Libya....

Ethnic groups

The native population of Libya is primarily Arab or a mixture of Arab-Berber ethnicities, with a small minority of Berber-speaking tribal groups concentrated in northwest part of Tripolitania, Tuareg and Toubou tribes can be found in southern Libya, which are nomadic or semi-nomadic. Most of the Libyans claim descent from the Bedouin Arab tribes of the Banu Hilal and the Banu Sulaym, who invaded the Maghreb in the 11th century. There is also some Punic admixture, and a curious traditional element from the Romanized Punics such as the Roman toga can be seen in Tripoli's people and was used by Muammar Gaddafi himself.

In the west of the country, there are some Tuareg nomads, mobile across the Libyan-Algerian border. Tuaregs are also scattered over Algeria, Mali, Niger and Burkina Faso.

In the southeast, there are small populations of the Nilo-Saharan Toubou (Tibbu), although they occupy between a quarter and a third of the country and who also inhabit Niger and Chad.

Among foreign residents, the largest groups are from other African nations, including citizens of other North African nations (primarily Egyptians) as well as sub-Saharan Africans.

Tribal groups

Libyan society is to a large extent structured along tribal lines, with more than 20 major tribal groups. The major tribal groups of Libya are:[

Tripolitania: Al-Awager - ALUAGER Warfalla, Tarhona, Wershifana, Al-Fwatir, Awlad Busayf, Al-Zintan, Al-Rijban, Zuwarah.

Cyrenaica: Al-Awagir, Al-Abaydat, Drasa, Al-Barasa, Al-Fawakhir, Al-Zuwayya, Al-Majabra, Al-Msmare.

Sirte: Al-Qaddadfa, Al-Magarha, Al-Magharba, Al-Riyyah, Al-Haraba, Al-Zuwaid, Al-Guwaid.

Fezzan: Al-Hutman, Al-Hassawna; Toubou, Tuareg.


Kufra: Al-Zuwayya; Toubou.





Looking at the map why are the Toureg (and also in other articles we have discussed recently) not listed as berbers or even "Tuareg-berbers" ?


On the other hand the Tuareg article also in wikipedia opens with " The Tuareg (also spelled Twareg or Touareg; endonym Imuhagh) are a Berber people"


Looking at the map

orange - berbers are showing in {b]Tripolitania: [/b]

Tripolitania:
Al-Awager - ALUAGER Warfalla, Tarhona, Wershifana, Al-Fwatir, Awlad Busayf, Al-Zintan, Al-Rijban, Zuwarah.

^^^ I suppose one or more of these must be berber then, I'm not familiar with these names
_____________________________________________________

Now, looking at the Tuareg (purple)
they are to te south in Fezzan

maybe the distinction is being made according to this statement on Tuareg DNA again from the same wiki entry:


E1b1b1b (E-M81), the major haplogroup in Tuaregs, is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in North Africa, dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in North Africa 5,600 years ago. The parent clade E1b1b originated in East Africa.[43][44] Colloquially referred to as the Berber marker for its prevalence among Mozabite, Middle Atlas, Kabyle people and other Berber groups, E-M81 is also predominant among other North African groups. It reaches frequencies of up to 100 percent in some parts of the Maghreb.

The other major haplogroup is E1b1a mainly found in sub-saharan Africa.

Overall, a cline appears, with Algerian Tuaregs being closer to other Berbers and Arabs, and those from southern Mali being more similar to subsaharan West Africans. [Ottoni et al.] (2011)

________________________________________________

Libya: Deep Into The Roots Of The Libyan Tuareg: A Genetic Survey Of Their Paternal Heritage
Claudio Ottoni, et al 2011

Recent genetic studies of the Tuareg have begun to uncover the origin of this semi-nomadic northwest African people and their relationship with African populations. For centuries they were caravan traders plying the trade routes between the Mediterranean coast and south-Saharan Africa. Their origin most likely coincides with the fall of the Garamantes who inhabited the Fezzan (Libya) between the 1st millennium BC and the 5th century AD. In this study we report novel data on the Y-chromosome variation in the Libyan Tuareg from Al Awaynat and Tahala, two villages in Fezzan, whose maternal genetic pool was previously characterized. High-resolution investigation of 37 Y-chromosome STR loci and analysis of 35 bi-allelic markers in 47 individuals revealed a predominant northwest African component (E-M81, haplogroup E1b1b1b) which likely originated in the second half of the Holocene in the same ancestral population that contributed to the maternal pool of the Libyan Tuareg. A significant paternal contribution from south-Saharan Africa (E-U175, haplogroup E1b1a8) was also detected, which may likely be due to recent secondary introduction, possibly through slavery practices or fusion between different tribal groups. The difference in haplogroup composition between the villages of Al Awaynat and Tahala suggests that founder effects and drift played a significant role in shaping the genetic pool of the Libyan Tuareg.


_____________________________________________

but I'm not sure that map which separates berbers and Tuareg is based on these nuances in DNA
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 


This map represents the Tuareg in the Fezzan. The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the East. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت‎) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.


.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa, or ancient Crete and the Fezzan.The Garamantes were Mande speakers not Berbers.

The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers.Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.



Some Grecian traditions indicate that Fezzanese(called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.


A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.

---

Robert Graves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Keftiu


The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.

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detail, illustration:
Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye Enthroned Beneath a Kiosk, Tomb of Anen
ca. 1390–1352 B.C. Egypt; Thebes


Two frescos of Minoan Fisherman, Akrotiri
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

detail, illustration:
Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye Enthroned Beneath a Kiosk, Tomb of Anen
ca. 1390–1352 B.C. Egypt; Thebes
.

LOL.Fake Keftiu

.



LOL Two FAKE frescos of Minoan Fisherman, Akrotiri
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
LOL, they're are fake for the sole reason you don't like them?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

^Clyde, this is offical from Mike's site
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Berber languages did not originate in East Africa. The Berber languages are related to Arabic--not Ge'ez etc.

The Berber languages are of Indo-European origin.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Firewall:
Has anybody read this book?
The Golden Age of the Moor.

I am reading some of for the first time,well at least the ancient libyan parts so far.


Here it talks about the Berbers,libyans,temehou,adyrmachidae etc..
Alot of info about early libyans or berbers.

PAGES 109 TO 131 AND BEYOND.
The Golden Age of the Moor

---

This is a good book--but it is based on Eurocentric conjecure. European researchers have tried to link all the groups as one when they were different populations.

The Temehous were not Berbers.


Many researchers falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement(2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.

These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid (1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author)

The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed Africans. (Jelinek, 1985,p.273) The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985).



Tehenu


The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South. (Diop 1986) A Tehenu personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.

The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists.(Jelinek, 1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement. Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC.

The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.

The C-Group founded the Kerma dynasty of Kush. Diop (1986, p.72) noted that the "earliest substratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara". Kerma was first inhabited in the 4th millennium BC (Bonnet 1986). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.

There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs(Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.

The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier, 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 


The use of different names to describe the
Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is
understood in relation to the political and ethnic
conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this
period. The research appears to indicate that the
physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time .
This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of
Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu
(Libyans).

The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are
associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with
iduring his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during
the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign.
Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack
Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with
the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu
were Sea People.





Ramses III made multiple versions of his
campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the
naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have
to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term
applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed
with Palestinian-Syrian people
(who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of
the Sea (Indo-Europeans).

The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition
of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are
believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we
find that the Meshwesh were referred to as
Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the
Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the
14th Century BC.

The members of the coalition were led by
Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group
was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh
were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and
dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between
the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred
to all of the people in this area most often by the
generic tern "Tehenu".

The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh
controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a
result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses
II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David
O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to
these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64).
The Temehu were very hostile to the
Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the
Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188,
was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped
and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that
the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the
Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted
their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 &
105).


The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of
the army organized into "family or tribal ' units
under the leadership of a "great one". As result to
understand why the fAsian and Tehenu figures on the
Table of Nations are identified differently you have
use both the pictorical and textual material from the
reign of Ramses III to understand the representations.
As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure
D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member
of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu.




The personage that is second from the Egyptians which
is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu,
was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit
when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was
labled Asian. You can find out more about this
reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature
of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in
Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy
(pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern
Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990.
In the Table of Nation figure B we see the
traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock,
shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called
Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the
original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the
New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh






The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but
they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu
and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the
New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh
have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians
and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and
capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the
earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High
Status.

David O'Connor makes it clear that there was
"marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41).
The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by
the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign.
Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu,
later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live
near Cape Verde
The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and
their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many
researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a
different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian
traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above
makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III
day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic
type [that] are markedly different from the
Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing,
1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered:
Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was
a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native
chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu
origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New
Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier
Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained
some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for
Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the
opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom
Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered
from the Egyptians to be chracteristic of ancient
Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or
in some way had these rtraits imposed upon them by the
Egyptians" (p.74).

It is my opinion that given the organiztion of
the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups',
sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of
time Indo-European speaking people later to be known
as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya
and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of
the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to
the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but
maintaining their traditional beards,. The original
Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of
Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase
their number and possibily conquer Egypt. It is
interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure
they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because
they brought their cattle and other animals with them
when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the
Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples:
Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden
remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield.

The Nehasyu were ancient members of the
Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the
Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman.
In conclusion, the names for the personages in the
Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled
correctly. These personages were recorded in the the
Tables based on the military and family units were
attached too, not the country identifiable by their
dress.

Annotated Bibliograpy

Adler,J.(1991 September 23). "African Dreams",
Newsweek, pp.42- 45. This magazine articles
discussed the controversey surrounding Afrocentrism.

Anselin,A.(1984). "Zeus, Ethiopien Minos Tamoul",
Carbet Revue
Martinique de Sciences Humaines,no. 2:31-50. This
articles explains the African origin of the Libyans.
It has several very good illustrations of
Blacks in ancient Sahara.

_______.(1989). "Le Lecon Dravidienne",Carbet Revue
Martinique
de Sciences Humaines, no.9:7-58. This paper
discussed the origins of the Dravidian and their
relationship to Africans.

Asante,M.K. (1990) Kemet,Afrocentricity,and Knowledge.
Trenton
,NJ:Africa World Press. This book provides the
theoretical foundations for africalogical studies.

_________ (1991). "The Afrocentric idea in
Education",Journal
of Negro Education,60(2):170-180. The author
explains the importance of the Afrocentric field of
study for enrichment of the social studies curricula.

__________.(December 1991/January 1992). "Afrocentric
Curriculum".Educational Leadership, pp.28-31. This
article explains the practical reasons supporting the
institution of an Afrocentric curriculum within the
context of multiculturalism.

Baines,J. (11 August,1991). "Was Civilization made in
Africa?" The New York Times Review of Books,pp.12-13.
This article attempts to review the work of Bernal and
Diop in a negative light.

Bernal,M. (1987). Black Athena. New York. Volume 1.
Here the author explains his theory that there is need
for a new historiography for the Mediterranean which
recognizes the multicultural origins of Greece. The
author also returns to the ancient model which claimed
that the Egyptians were "Blacks".

________. (1991). Black Athena. New York. Volume 2. In
this volume Bernal outlines his theory that the
founders of Greece were Hyksos (Semitic) people from
Egypt.

Bonnet,C. (1986). Kerma: Territoire et Metropole.
Cairo: Instut
Francais D'Archeologie Orientale du Caire. This
is a fine examination of the Kerma culture of Nubia
which existed in Nubia before the Egyptians
established rule in this area.

Diop,C.A. (1974). The African Origin of Civilization.
(ed. & Trans) by Mercer Cook,
Westport:Lawrence Hill & Company. This book
outlines Diop's theory of the African origin of
Egyptian civilization.

_________.(1977). Parente genetique de l'Egyptien
Pharaonique et
des Languaes Negro-Africaines. Dakar: IFAN ,Les
Nouvelles
Editions Africaines. This is a very good
discussion of the extensive morphological and
phonological evidence of unity between Wolof
and Egyptian.

__________.(1978) The Cultural Unity of Black Africa.
Chicago:

Third World Press. This book details the
precolombian character of African
civilizations, and explains the common cultural
expressions they share.

___________.(1986). "Formation of the Berber Branch".
In Libya
Antiqua. (ed.) by Unesco,(Paris: UNESCO)
pp.69-73. In this article Diop explains that
the original inhabitants of Libya were Blacks.

____________.(1987). Precolonial Black Africa. (trans.
) by
Harold Salemson, Westport: Lawrence Hill &
Company. In this book Diop explains the origin
and connections between the major Western
Sudanic empires and states. These states are
compared to European states.

____________.(1988). Nouvelles recherches sur
l'Egyptien ancient
et les langues Negro-Africaines Modernes. Paris:
Presence
Africaine. This book provides a number of Diop's
theories regarding the relationship between
Black-African and Egyptian languages.

_____________(1991). Civilization or Barbarism: An
Authentic Anthropology. (trans.) by
Yaa-Lengi Meema Ngemi and (ed.) by
H.J. Salemson and Marjoliiw de Jager,
Westport:Lawrence
Hill and Company. This book details Diop's theory
of the genetic model for the study of
African civilization. It also gives a fine
discussion of the architecture, mathematics and
philosophy of the ancient Egyptians and other African
people.

Farid,El-Yahky. (1985). "The Sahara and Predynastic
Egypt an Overview".The Journal for the
Society for the Study Egyptian
Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. This paper gives a
detailed discussion of the affinities between
Egyptian civilization and the Saharan
civilizations which we call Proto-Saharan. The
evidence presented in this paper support the Saharan
origin of the Egyptians.

Galassi, . (1942). Tehenu. Rome. Galassi explains the
history of the Tehenu people forerunners of the
Libyans.

Graves, Robert. (1980). The Greek Myths.
Middlesex:Peguin Books
Ltd. 2 volumes. In this volume we see a detailed
account of the founding Myths of the ancient
Greeks as recorded in Greek literature.

Hopper, R.J. (1976). The Early Greeks. New York:Harper
& Row Pub. Hopper gives an informative narative on the
history of the ancient Greeks.

Hochfield,S. & Riesfstahl,E.(1978). (Eds.) Africa in
Antiquity: The Arts of Nubia and the Sudan. New York:
Brooklyn Museum. 2 vols. This is a fine source of
information on the Kushite and Meroitic
empires. It also provides many well
researched articles and photographs of the Kushites.
The evidence in this book shows that the
Egyptians and Kushites were one.

Hughes,R. (1992, February 3). "The Frying of America".
TIME ,pp.44-49. Hughes discussed the threat of
multiculturalism to unity of the American
people.

Jelinek,J. (1985). "Tillizahren,the Key Site of the
Fezzanese Rock Art". Anthropologie (Brno),23(3):223-275.
This paper gives a stimulating account of
the rock art of the Sahara and the important
role the C-Group people played in the
creation of this art.

Levine,M.M. (April 1992). "The use and abuse of Black
Athena", American Historical Review,pp. 440-460. This
articles attacks Bernal and the use of
Black Athena to estabish a new paradigm for
ancient history.

Lefkowitz,M. (1992,February 10). "Not out of Africa".
The New Republic, pp.29-36. This text deals with the
hyptohesis that Greek civilization came from
Africa. Lefkowitz contends that Africans failed
to play an important role in Greecian
civilization.

Marriott,M. (1991,August 11). "As a Discipline
Advances, Questions Arise on
Scholarship". The New York Times.
Marriott gives an excellent discussion of the
controversey surrounding Afrocentrism. It
provides a good discussion of the players pro
and against this field of intellectual
inquiry.

Martel, E. (December 1991/January 1992). "How valid
are the Port-land Baseline Essays". Educational Leadership,
pp.20-23. Martel gives reasons in this article why he
believes that many of the claims of
Afrocentrists are wrong.

__________.(1991). "Teachers's Corner:Ancient Africa
and the Port-land Curriculum Resource",Anthro Notes: National
Museum of Natural History(Smithsonian) Bulletin for
Teachers 13, pp.2-6. This text explains why Afrocentrism
should be kept out of the schools until it conforms with accepted Eurocentric
views about Africana affairs and history. He
does argue that the Egyptians were a multiculutural
society.

Moitt,B. (1989). "Chiekh Anta Diop and the African
Diaspora: Historical Continuity and Socio-Cultural
Symbolism". Presence Africaine, no. 149-150:347-360. This is
an excellent analysis of the influence of Diop on africalogical studies and the
European attacks against his research.

Nicholson,D. (1992, September 23). "Afrocentrism and
the Tribalization of America". The Washington Post,
B-l.Nicholson makes the claim that Afrocentrism is
causing the fragmentation of America.

Okafor,V.O. (1991). " Diop and the African Origin of
Civiliza-
tion:An Afrocentric Analysis". Journal of Black
Studies
22(2):252-268. This book offers excellent
guidelines on implimenting the research
methods of Diop in africological studies.

Parker,G.W. (1917) . "The African Origin of Grecian
Civilization
".Journal of Negro History, 2(3):334-344. This
short article provides a wealth of historical and
lexical evidence for the African origination of
Greccian heroes, literature and
civilization.

___________. (1981). The Children of the Sun.
Baltimore,Md.:
Black Classic Press. This book provides a short
discussion of the important role of Blacks in
the rise of civilization around the world.

Petrie,W.M.F. (1921). Corpus of Prehistoric Pottery.
London.Petrie provides the first detailed categorization
of Egyptian pottery and an informative
account on the origination of Egypt.

Pounder, R.L. (1992,April) "Black Athena 2:History
without Rules" American Historical Review, 461-464. This
articles attacks the credibility of Bernal's
,Black Athena.

Quellec,J-L le. (1985). "Les Gravures Rupestres Du
Fezzan (Libye)". L'Anthropologie, 89
(3):365-383. This text deals comprehensively
with the dates and spread of specific art
themes in the ancient Sahara.

Raphael, . 1947. Prehistoric Pottery . New York:
Pantheon Book. Raphael provides a thorough
explanation of the ceramics of the predynastic
Egyptians.

Ravitch,D. (1990,Summer). "Multiculturalism:E Pluribus
Plures". The American Scholar, pp.337-354.
Ravitch argues that multiculturalism is
causing America to become ethnicallly
polarized, while we abandon many of the values that
unite Americans.

Schlesinger,A.M. (1992). The Disuniting of America:
Reflections on a Multicultural Society. New
York: Norton. Schlesinger argues that
multiculturalism is bringing about the rise
of ethnocentrism in the United States.

Snowden,F. (1976). "Ethiopians and the Greco-Roman
World". In The African Diaspora. Washington: Howard University
Press. In this paper Snowden discusses the
role of Ethiopian slaves in Grecce.

___________. (1992, March 4). "Blacks as seen by
Ancient Egyptians, Greek and Roman
Artists". (Lecture) Chicago: Oriental
Institute of the University of Chicago. In this
lecture Snowden continues his theory that the
only Blacks in Egyptian and Classical art were
slaves.

Tounkara,B. (1989). "Problematique du comparatisme
egyptien ancien/langues africaines
(wolof)". Presence Africaine,nos. 149-150:
313-320. This book discusses the linguistic
relationship of wolof and Egyptian.

Trigger,B.G. (1987). "Egypt: A Fledging Nation". The
Journal of
the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities,
17 (1/2): 58-65. Trigger documents the rise
of Egyptian civilization in the Sahara and
Nubia.

____________. (1992). "Brown Athena: A Post Processual
Goddess".
Current Anthropology, 33(1): 121-123. This
article focuses on the misuse of the book
Black Athena as a tool to claim the Egyptians
were Blacks.

Vandier,J. (1952). Manuel d'archeologie Egyptienne.
Paris. This is a fine examination of the
archaeology of Egypt.

Williams,B. (1987). The A-Group Royal Cemetery at
Qustul: Cemetery L. Chicago: The
Oriental Institute University of
Chicago. This excellent text reviews the
important Qustul
cemetery, which provides a detailed account of
the rise of the first world empire in Nubia.

Winkler, H.A. (1938). Rock Drawings of Southern Upper
Egypt. London. 2 volumes. This book gives numerous
examples of rock art which point to an Egyptian
origin in Nubia.

Winters, C.A. (1983a). "The Ancient Manding Script".
In Blacks in Science:Ancient and Modern. (ed.) by Ivan van
Sertima,(New Brunswick: Transaction Books) pp.208-215.
This paper discusses the Manding origin for
many of the so-called Libyco-Berber
inscriptions and explains how these
inscriptions can be read. It makes it clear that
literacy was widespread in Africa 5000 years
ago.

__________. (1983b). "Les Fondateurs de la Grece
venaient d'Afrique en passant par la
Crete". Afrique Histoire (Dakar),
no.8:13-18. This rich historical account refutes
the idea that Greece was founded by the
Indo-European speakers. Winters argues
that credit should be given to the African
settlers of Anatolia from Libya, Egypt and Palestine.

_________. (1983c) "Famous Black Greeks Important in
the development of Greek Culture".
Return to the Source,2(1):8.
In this article Winters' discussed the famous
Greeks like Socrates, that were of African/Pelasgian origin.

________. (1984). "Blacks in Europe before the
Europeans".
Return to the Source, 3(1):26-33. This paper
provides insights into the long history
of Blacks in Europe, including the Old
Europeans, Danubians and other groups.

_________.(1985a). "The Indus Valley Writing and
related Scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC". India Past and
Present, 2(1):13-19. The author describes the
unity of the writing systems used by the
Sumerians, Minoans, Egyptians and Harappans.
He shows that these scripts have a common
ideological origin and that they can all be read due
to the genetic unity of the langauges spoken by
these people.

__________. (1985b). "The Proto-Culture of the
Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians". Tamil
Civilization,3(1):1-9. Winters uses linguistics , historical
and archaeological evidence to argue that the
Dravidian, Manding and Sumerian speakers
originated in the highland regions of the Sahara
which he called the "Fertile African Crescent".
Many of the culture terms of these groups are
discussed and the proto- terms are
reconstructed. It also provides numerous maps to
delienate the migrations of these people from their
archetype homeland.

__________. (1988). "Common African and Dravidian
Place Name Elements". South Asian Anthropologist,
9(1):33-36. This paper provides an analysis
of the common roots toponyms found in Asia
of African origin.

__________. (1989a). "Tamil, Sumerian, Manding and the
Genetic Model". International Journal of Dravidian
Linguistics, 18(1):98-127. Winters discusses the genesis of
the common culture of the founders of ancient
civilizations in Africa and Asia. It also
refutes the myth that the Sumerian and
Dravidian languages are unrelated to any other
languages on earth. Here you will find a
detailed explanation of the morphological,
semantic and lexical affinities shared by
these langauges that indicate their genetic unity.

__________. (1989b). "Review of Dr. Asko Parpola's
'The Coming of the Aryans'",International Journal of
Dravidian Linguistics, 18(2):98-127. This anthropological
and linguistic account of the prehistoric linguistic-history of South and
Central Asia outlines the fallacy of Parpola's
theory for an Indo-European founding of the Harappan
civilization. He provides numerous
examples of the Dravidian and African influences
on the Indo-European languages.

__________. (1990). "The Dravido-Harappan Colonization
of Central Asia". Central Asiatic Journal,
34(1/2):120-144. This paper discussed the
settlement of Asia by African people 4500 years
ago. Special attention is placed on the type and
expression of African civilization in ancient
Asia.

___________. (1991). "The Proto-Sahara". The Dravidian
Encyclopaedia, (Trivandrum: International School of
Dravidian Linguistics) pp.553-556. Volume l. This is a
detailed account of the Proto-Saharan
origin of the Elamites, Dravidians,
Sumerians, Egyptians and other Black African
groups. We also find here a well developed
illumination of the cultural features shared
by these genetically related groups.

Yurco,F. (1989,September/October). "Were the ancient
Egyptians Black?". Biblical Archaeological
Review, 15(5):24-29,58.Yurco argues that the Egyptians have always been
"light skinned", and that they got darker
as you went south into Nubia.
Wainwright, G. 1962. The Meshwesh", JEA 48, 89-99.

Osing,J. 1980. "Libyen, Libyer", LA III, 1015-1033.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Many researchers falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement(2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.

---

Clyde there is no close relationship between Berber and German languages and what the Vandal spoke is not even known.

You are saying that Diop said berbers were a mixture of Africans and Germanics. If this is the case they the African component could have been Garamante

________________________________________

http://books.google.com/books?id=xdnrTM_d1GkC&pg=PA3&dq=libyan+berber&hl=




Vandals, Romans and Berbers: New Perspectives on Late Antique North Africa
edited by Andrew H. Merrills



.

 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
written in stone according Dr. Winters

http://books.google.com/books?id=dHnDH-m9UQYC&pg=PT21&dq=diop+berber+germanic+language







.



.




.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Many researchers falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement(2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.

---

Clyde there is no close relationship between Berber and German languages and what the Vandal spoke is not even known.

You are saying that Diop said berbers were a mixture of Africans and Germanics. If this is the case they the African component could have been Garamante

________________________________________

http://books.google.com/books?id=xdnrTM_d1GkC&pg=PA3&dq=libyan+berber&hl=




Vandals, Romans and Berbers: New Perspectives on Late Antique North Africa
edited by Andrew H. Merrills



.

---

quote:

---

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/july/berber.html


Introduction

The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.

Consonants

Berber consonants include:

glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation;
implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward;
ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out;
geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts.
Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.

Grammar

Noun phrase

Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.

Verb phrase

Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.

Vocabulary

Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.

---

The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.

Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).

The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.


..

.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Clyde what about haplogroups M81 which are highest frequency in berbers
and U6 and/or M1 which are also high in many berbers?
Aren't there a lot of genetic studies that came after Diop passed?

Clyde and xyyman are at opposite extremes on this
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Even though this thread was created by Clyde, I see no point in arguing with the thread author as he is beyond reason. Berber is as much indigenous to Africa as its relatives Chadic and Egyptic. That he refuses to accept this is his problem, and I agree with Son of Ra that he needs to get his head checked indeed by a shrink.

That said, I agree with Tukuler and Swenet that perhaps the best modern representatives of the Garamantes would be the people who live in their territory today.



Ghadames



Tuareg



Toubou



As for the physical appearance of the Garamantes themselves, we do have descriptions from Greco-Roman authors as cited by Snowden:


 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The Tuareg and Berbers are not the same. The Tuareg are an ancient African population which mated with the Vandals to form the present Berber population.


http://books.google.com/books?id=dHnDH-m9UQYC&pg=PT21&dq=diop+berber+germanic+language










Tuareg territory

This map represents the Tuareg region. The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the East. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت‎) an important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.


.


.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Berber Languages

quote:

---

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/july/berber.html


Introduction

The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.

Consonants

Berber consonants include:

glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation;
implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward;
ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out;
geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts.
Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.

Grammar

Noun phrase

Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.

Verb phrase

Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.

Vocabulary

Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.

---

The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.

Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).

The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.


..


The linguistic evidence makes it clear that Romans , Greeks and other Europeans have influenced the Berbers.

Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language. The Afro-Asiatic languages do not exit.


I have never read that Tuareg has any Indo-European elements. Tuareg, as opposed to the other Berber languages is closely related to Hausa and Songhay.

Andre Basset in La Langue Berbere, has discussed the I-E elements in the Berber languages. There is also a discussion of these elements in Schuchardt, Die romanischen Lehnworter im Berberischen (Wien,1918). Basset provides a few examples in his monograph. I have posted the page so you can examine the material yourself.





You can also consult Note di geografia linguistica berbera more ,by Vermondo Brugnatelli :
http://unimib.academia.edu/VermondoBrugnatelli/Papers/1098593/Note_di_geografia_linguistica_berbera


.

.







Obenga made it clear that AfroAsiatic does not exist and you can not reconstruct the Proto-language.

This is true. Ehret (1995) and Orel/Stolbova (1995) were attempts at comparing Proto-AfroAsiatic. The most interesting fact about these works is that they produced different results. If AfroAsiatic existed they should have arrived at similar results. The major failur of these works is that there is too much synononymy. For example, the Proto-AfroAsiatic synonym for bird has 52 synonyms this is far too many for a single term and illustrates how the researchers just correlated a number of languages to produce a proto-form.

This supports Obenga's view that you can not reconstruct Afro-Asiatic. It is assumed that if languages are related you should be able to reconstruct the proto-language of the language family.


.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
This paper does not claim the Garamantes were linked to Berbers.

quote:

---

Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.
Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.

Source


Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.


Abstract


"The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region."

---

But...

[QUOTE]


And ...


"Despite the difference, Gebel Ramlah [the Western Desert- Saharan region] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis, and Badari.." [the Badarians ]are a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like"


--(Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.)




They've always been an indigenous African population.


.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Tuareg and Berbers are not the same. The Tuareg are an ancient African population which mated with the Vandals to form the present Berber population.

---

so would you say that when Diop says in the following paragraph from the book that the berber speaking Tuareg were white he was mistaken?


Cheikh Anta Diop, African Origin of Civilization

Diop also says there are no berbers in Egypt.
Yet the Siwa are berbers and they live in Egypt


Cheikh Anta Diop, African Origin of Civilization

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Tuareg territory

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

This map represents the Tuareg region. The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the East. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت‎) an important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde what about haplogroups M81 which are highest frequency in berbers
and U6 and/or M1 which are also high in many berbers?
Aren't there a lot of genetic studies that came after Diop passed?

Clyde and xyyman are at opposite extremes on this

---

I have made clear in all of my work that M1 spread across Africa before the
OoA exit 50kya. See:


Haplogroup L3 (M,N) probably spread across Africa before the Out of Africa event
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/367/1590/770/reply#royptb_el_319

and

.


The African Origin of mtDNA Haplogroup M1

Co-Author's: Clyde Winters
Corresponding Author: Clyde Winters

Key words: Haplogroup, Sangoan, clade, haplotype, mtDNA, subhaplogroup,

Vol. 2 , Issue: 6, 380-389

Abstract:

The aim of this study is to determine the geographical origin of haplogroup M1. Controversy surrounds the origin and expansion of the M1 haplogroup (hg). Some researchers believe that the M1 macrohaplogroup originated in Asia and represents a backflow to Africa, while other researchers believe hg M1 is of African origin. The analysis of M1 clades in Africa and Eurasia illustrate a high frequency for hg M1 in Sub Saharan Africa (SSA) instead of A sia and the Near East; and the distribution of haplogroups L3(M) and LOd across Sub Saharan Africa dating back to the Sangoan period make a 'back migration' of M1 to Africa highly unlikely.


http://www.maxwellsci.com/print/crjbs/v2-380-389.pdf

There are many M haplogroups found in Africa



1. The most recent common ancestor (TMRC) of AMH carrying LOd according to Gonder et al. dates to 106kya. A haplotype of LOd is AF-24, delineated by DdeI site 10394 and AluI site of np 10397. Haplogroup L3 (M,N) is characterized by the DdeI site np 10394 and AluI 10397. Chen et al. maintain that Haplotype AF-24 (DQ112852) is at the base of the M Haplogroup [4].
The only African mtDNA that has both of these sites is the Senegalese AF-24 associated with Haplogroup L3 [Chen]. The presence of AF-24 among the Senegalese, given the antiquity of this haplotype in relation to LOd, suggests an early expansion of L3 (M,N) from East Africa to West Africa before the OoA event suggested by Oppenheimer.

Gonder et al. has dated L3 to 100kya [5]. Oppenheimer [1] and Behar et al [3] on the other hand have postulated an estimated time for TMRCA of L3 to around 70kya. The presence of L3 (M,N) in West Africa and haplotype AF- 24 suggest an ancient demic diffusion of L3 (M,N) to West Africa prior to 70kya, and support Soares et al.'s [2] and Gonder et al.'s [5] dating of L3 between 80-100kya.

Anatomically modern humans arrived in Senegal during the Sangoan period. Sangoan artifacts spread from East Africa to West Africa between 100-80kya. In Senegal Sangoan material was discovered near Cap Manuel [6], Gambia River in Senegal [8,9]; and Cap Vert [7]. The distribution of the Sangoan culture supports the demic diffusion of L3 (M,N) into West Africa over 100kya.




Contemporary north africans are probably the children of the early africans who took haplogroup M to Northwest Africa (NWA).

Rosa et al claims an autochthonous origin for haplogroup U6 in NWA given the diversity of U6 clades in NWA around 38kya. Using this criterion, the diversity of U5 clades in SSWA and the phylogeography of U5 in this region, support an in situ origin for the U5 clade in the same region as haplogroup U6.

In summary, the genetic data from contemporary European populations fails to support a migration of populations carrying haplogroup U5 into Europe via the Levant. The low frequency of U5 in Europe, except among the Saami, probably indicates a single episode of ancient gene flow from NWA and SSWA into Iberia 9kya. The present phylogeograpical distribution of the U5 cline reflects demographic porcesses involving population replacement, drift and a history of genetic bottlenecks resulting from demic diffussion of neolithic populations from the Levant and Central Asia into Europe.

The temporal and spatial distribution of U5 and U6 clades outside Europe, point to a NWA and SSWA origin for these lineages. The high frequency of U5 in NWA and SSWA suggest the spread of the U5 cline into Iberia across the Straits of Gibraltar 7kya.


;
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



^^^ Clyde look at all this M1 and U in berbers
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:



^^^ CLyde look at all this M1 and U in berbers

---

Most carriers of haplogroup M1 live in SubSaharan Africa--not North Africa





Contemporary north african Berbers are probably the children of the early africans who took haplogroup M to Northwest Africa (NWA) that mated with the Vandals, and Peoples of the Sea.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Clyde Morroco is West of the Fezzan

East of the Fezzan is more of Libya and Egypt


The Tuareg or another group in the region would be likely to have descended form the Garmante but you can't prove they are or are not.
The Garmante don't have to speak berber in order for modern day berber speaking Tuareg to have descended from them because people can change languages.
But very little is known about Garamonte language.
The Romans notcied their script to have some similarities to Phoenician

---

You are correct Morocco is west of the Fezzan.

Little is known about the Garamante language but from the little we know about the Garamante language that was spoken in ancient Crete it is related to the Mande Family of languages,

The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa, or ancient Crete.The Garamantes were Mande speakers not Berbers.


The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers
Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.

Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.


A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.

This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.

The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.


Keftiu


The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.


Keftiu
The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.

On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:

Keftiu....... Manding

sh h.r........ Sye

Nsy ..........Nsye

'ksh .........Nkyi

Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)

'dm ..........Demba

Rs............. Rsa

This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.

In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language.

.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 



This table just supports the view that the Berbers have mated with the ancient Africans who took L3(M,N) to Europe and North Africa (1-4). This genetic evidence does not prove that they were not of Germanic/Vandal origin.

The L haplogroups early spread to Iberia (2). The L3 (M,N) haplogroups were spread into Europe with the Cromagnon people who entered Europe across the Straits of Gibraltar (4).


References:

(1) A Sub-Saharan Origin for European Farmers http://olmec98.net/BlkFarmers.pdf

(2) There has been a Continous Indigenous Sub-Saharan Presence in North Africe for 30ky http://olmec98.net/ContinuousEurope.pdf

(3) First Europran Farmers were Sub-Saharan Africans http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/279/1730/884.abstract/reply

(4) 2011.The Gibraltar Out of Africa Exit for Anatomically Modern Humans. WebmedCentral BIOLOGY. http://www.webmedcentral.com/article_view/2311
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Imazighen are the people speaking Tamazight. That
is my definition. Before North Africans began to
speak Tamazight lects they were not "Berbers."

---

Sure, but the point I'm trying to make is that your and Nikita et al's reservation to the idea that Garamantes and modern Berber speakers derive the practice of trephenation from their Epi-Palaeolithic predecessors in that region hinges on the suspicion that Maghrebi Epi-Palaeolithic ancestry doesn't persist in modern Berber speakers. That idea is not founded on current understandings of what Berber speakers are.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

Kind of similar to how Palestinians think of themselves as Arabs and don't seem to have recollections of being inhabitants of events related to the Israelite state, even though their pre-medieval ancestors likely would have self identified as biologically Jewish or something akin to it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
I don't see Teda entering Fezzan any later than
the Kels. I guess that map is as good as any.
Does it jibe with other similar maps? There's
some Xian missionary group very concerned with
African ethnic groups. Maybe I'm simple to do
it but I value their ethnic maps because the
time they put in the field and the stakes they
place in what they do.

---

I guess that goes back to what I said earlier, re: what one considers Tuareg to be. Are they predominantly a continuation of their >10ky old mtDNA H1, M1 and V ancestors or of their ~5kya E-M81 ancestors? If one goes with the former scenario, as I'm inclined to for obvious reasons, then they hands down pre-date Tebu in the wider area.

Who are the Libyan Bedouins you're referring to? Isn't ''Bedouin'' a lifestyle related term, which may be applied to segments of all Libyan ethnic groups, rather than an ethnic term, or is it different in Libya?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[QB]


This table just supports the view that the Berbers have mated with the ancient Africans who took L3(M,N) to Europe and North Africa (1-4). This genetic evidence does not prove that they were not of Germanic/Vandal origin.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
I think many "Berbers," for the most part, descend
from pre-Berber Maurusians (who were relegated to
the littoral) and pre-Berber Gafsians (whose sites
were further inland). Nikita's trephination point is
it's practiced by Tubu today not by Kels. Tin Hanan
(whom Kel Ahaggar claim as "ancestress") her tomb
is Tubu architecture. Also those Kels in SW Fezzan's Ghat
moved there upon Qadhafi's invitation in the 1970's, iirc. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
There are some Palestinians who claim Pelishti
ancestry which would make them Aegean settlers
and so still not supporting claims of being the
original land holders.[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Quite plainly there were no Kels before ~1700 years
ago. They are of multiple ancestries which for Fezzani
"Tuaregs" includes L0a1 L1b1 L2a (L2a1 L2a1a) L2b
L3e (L3e1* L3e2 L3e2b L3e3 L3f) L3w and M1 not just
biasedly preferred Eurasian markers (due to a priori
assumptions that only those of Eurasian mtDNA's can
be the real true North Africans).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
the Robert Graves quote

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The Tuareg and Berbers are not the same. The Tuareg are an ancient African population which mated with the Vandals to form the present Berber population.

---

'Berber' is a linguisto-cultural group encompassing many different ethnicities. The Tuareg or Tamashek is just ONE of those ethnicities! Also the Tuareg have nothing to do with the Vandals.

Here is a map with list of the major Berber groups.



"Saharan Berbers" is a collective label the authors of the map use for the various groups living in the desert mostly in oases areas from the Siwa of western Egypt to the Shila of southeast Morocco, although the Tamashek (Tuareg) themselves are Saharan Berbers who are the largest and most expansive.

quote:

---

Tuareg territory

---

Vandal territory

Pray tell what one has to do with the other? Especially when their territories are separated by hundreds of miles of desert.

By the way, here is a good webpage that gives some basic info and background on the Tuareg: http://shelf3d.com/i/Tuareg%20people
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
One reason I don't refute his more obvious errors
is his writing is dogmatic ideaology repeated
from earlier works without revision or update.

I already explained the Tehenu Temehu difference
yet he just posts the same old conflation of the
two without examining the evidence I gave.

I could post my analyses of the term Garamante for
the membership but it's only one part of refuting
some of the points in his long post.

Being its his thread I let it slide whereas if
another poster broached the thread I might go
more into some of the finer points on Garamantes
"Berbers" etc.

I am however enjoying the exchange with Swenet and
since it started here I won't resort to a new thread
to continue our discussion/debate.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Even though this thread was created by Clyde, I see no point in arguing with the thread author as he is beyond reason.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
the Robert Graves quote

---

Look! If you're going to keep plagiarizing me get it right

================


THE OLYMPIAN CREATION MYTH

At the beginning of all things Mother Earth emerged from Chaos
and bore her son Uranus as she slept.
. . .

b. Her first children of semi-human form were the hundred-handed
giants Briareus, Gyges, and Cottus.
. . .

c. The Libyans, however, claim that Garamas was born before the
Hundred-handed Ones and that, when he rose from the plain, he
offered Mother Earth a sacrifice of the sweet acorn.


. . . .


1. This patriarchal myth of Uranus gained official acceptance
under the Olympian religious system.
...
Briareus ('strong') was also called Aegaeon, and his people may
therefore be the Libyo-Thracians, whose Goat-goddess Aegis gave
her name to the Aegean Sea.

Cottus was the eponymous ancestor of the Cottians who worshipped
the orgiastic Cotytto, and spread her worship from Thrace through
out North-western Europe. These tribes are described as 'hundred
handed', perhaps because their priestesses were organized in
colleges of fifty, like the Danaids and Nereids; ...
. . .


. . . .


3. Garamas is the eponymous ancestor of the Libyan Garamantians
who occupied the Oasis of Djado, south of the Fezzan, and were
conquered by the Roman general Balbus in 19 B.C. They are said
to have been of Cushite-Berber stock, and in the second century
A.D. were subdued by the matrilineal Lemta Berbers. Later they
fused with the Negro aboriginals on the south bank of the Upper
Niger, and adopted their language.

They survive today in a single village under the name of Koromantse.
Garamante is derived from the words gara man te meaning 'Gara state
people'.

Gara seems to be the goddess Ker, or Q're, or Car, who gave her
name to the Carians, amog other people, and was associated with
apiculture. Esculent acorns, a stape food of the ancient world
before the introduction of [grains], grew in Libya; and the
Garamantian settlement of Ammon was joined with the Northern
Greek settlement of Dodona in a religious league which, according
to Sir Flinders Petrie, may have originated as early as the third
millenium B.C.

Both places had an ancient oak-oracle. Herodotus describes
the Garamantians as a peaceable but very powerful people,
who cultivate the date-palm, grow [grain], and herd cattle.



Robert Graves
The Greek Myths
New York: George Braziller, Inc., 1959 (edition)
vol. 1 pp. 31-33


Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/116/forgotten-garamante-kingdom?page=4#ixzz2YPUO4n1T

---

I'm confused. Graves seems to identify the Garama with a goddess in Anatolia and Greece. How true is this, or is Graves merely making wild speculations on etymology or rather typology of the word? Also, you say the Hekatonchieres (hundred-handers) are connected with Libyo-Thracians. So this means both Libyans and Thracians? How so, and what is the connection between these two people?? By the way, I thought the Greek legend was that the Aegean Sea was named after the Mycenaean king Aegeus (father of Theseus) though the Anatolian version is that it was named after one of the founding Amazon Queens Aegea, (daughter of Helios the sun and Perse the Oceanid; sister of Kirke, Pasiphae, Aeëtes, Persus, and Aloeus;).
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



why did Diop say this?

Does Diop mention the Siwa in any of his writings? So far I have found no mention

Either he was avoiding any mention of the Siwa or considering the Siwa not to be berber
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Forget the Siwa! There are plenty of Berber groups that are predominantly black, or at least have blacks common among them including the Tuareg of the Sahara! This is why I too was surprised about what Diop wrote when I first read his Origins book. Then again, Diop has also wrote other things that are known to be erroneous such as black Africans colonizing Southwest Asia from Sumer and Elam all the way to India. He even stated that the "Mongoloid" race is the product of admixture between "Caucasoids" and "Negroids" [sic]!! That said, Diop may have been a brilliant scholar in many ways, but he was obviously far from perfect!

It's a shame some folks today refuse to accept this and idolize Diop to the point of dogma where they refuse any facts or reality. Case in point Clyde.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Diop was not wrong about the African/Kushite settlement and founding of civilization from Mesopotamia to Iran and India. Diop was a student of W.E.B. DuBois who he greatly admired.

LOL. Afro-American scholars have recognized the Kushite settlement of West and South Asia for over 200 years. This is nothing new.

It is sad that most of the participants here know nothing about the history Afro-American scholarship relating to Ancient History.


Only a Euronut would deny the role of Kushites in founding civilization in Sumer and Elam.




Knowledge is cumulative. In other words we build new knowledge on the research of the giants in our field. From your lack of knowledge about DuBois' it is clear you have no recognition of the fact that what you guys are writing about has already been discussed formerly, and your job should be confirming or disconfirming what these giants wrote.

I teach educational philosophy on occasion. In this class I just don't talk about contemporary educators I also talk about the Greek philosophers.

I have posted the following previously. I hope you will read it this time and begin to recognize that what Mike, Marc and I write about is part of a 200 year tradition of Afro-American scholarship. Learn to respect your own scholars. Don't let white supremacy continue to blind you to the truths of history.

Afrocentrism, is a mature social science that was founded by Afro-Americans almost 200 years ago.

These men and women provided scholarship based on contemporary archaeological and historical research the African/Black origination of civilization throughout the world. These Afro-American scholars, mostly trained at Harvard University (one of the few Universities that admitted Blacks in the 19th Century) provide the scientific basis the global role played by African people in civilizing the world.

Afrocentrism and the africalogical study of ancient Black civilizations was began by Afro-Americans.



Edward Blyden

The foundation of any mature science is its articulation in an authoritive text (Kuhn, 1996, 136). The africalogical textbooks published by Hopkins (1905), Perry (1893) and Williams (1883) provided the vocabulary themes for further afrocentric social science research.

The pedagogy for ancient africalogical research was well established by the end of the 19th century by African American researchers well versed in the classical languages and knowledge of Greek and Latin. Cornish and Russwurm (1827) in the Freedom Journal, were the first African Americans to discuss and explain the "Ancient Model" of history.



These afrocentric social scientists used the classics to prove that the Blacks founded civilization in Egypt, Ethiopia, Babylon and Ninevah. Cornish and Russwurm (1827) made it clear that archaeological research supported the classical, or "Ancient Model" of history.

Edward Blyden (1869) also used classical sources to discuss the ancient history of African people. ][bIn his work he not only discussed the evidence for Blacks in West Asia and Egypt, he also discussed the role of Blacks in ancient America (Blyden, 1869, 78).][/b

By 1883, africalogical researchers began to publish book on African American history. G.W. Williams (1883) wrote the first textbook on African American history. In the History of the Negro Race in America, Dr. Williams provided the schema for all future africalogical history text.



Dr. Williams (1883) confirmed the classical traditions for Blacks founding civilization in both Africa (Egypt, Ethiopia) and West Asia. In addition, to confirming the "Ancient Model" of history, Dr. Williams (1883) also mentioned the presence of Blacks in Indo-China and the Malay Peninsula. Dr. Williams was trained at Howard.



A decade later R.L. Perry (1893) also presented evidence to confirm the classical traditions of Blacks founding Egypt, Greece and the Mesopotamian civilization. He also provided empirical evidence for the role of Blacks in Phoenicia, thus increasing the scope of the ASAH paradigms.



Pauline E. Hopkins (1905) added further articulation of the ASAH paradigms of the application of these paradigms in understanding the role of Blacks in West Asia and Africa. Hopkins (1905) provided further confirmation of the role of Blacks in Southeast Asia, and expanded the scope of africalogical research to China (1905).

This review of the 19th century africalogical social scientific research indicate confirmation of the "Ancient Model" for the early history of Blacks. We also see a movement away from self-published africalogical research, and publication of research, and the publication of research articles on afrocentric themes, to the publication of textbooks.

It was in these books that the paradigms associated with the "Ancient Model" and ASAH were confirmed, and given reliability by empirical research. It was these texts which provided the pedagogic vehicles for the perpetuation of the africalogical normal social science.

The afrocentric textbooks of Hopkins (1905), Perry (1893) and Williams (1883) proved the reliability and validity of the ASAH paradigms. The discussion in these text of contemporary scientific research findings proving the existence of ancient civilizations in Egypt, Nubia-Sudan (Kush), Mesopotamia, Palestine and North Africa lent congruency to the classical literature which pointed to the existence of these civilizations and these African origins ( i.e., the children of Ham= Khem =Kush?).

The authors of the africalogical textbooks reported the latest archaeological and anthropological findings. The archaeological findings reported in these textbooks added precision to their analysis of the classical and Old Testament literature. This along with the discovery of artifacts on the ancient sites depicting Black\African people proved that the classical and Old Testament literature, as opposed to the "Aryan Model", objectively identified the Black\African role in ancient history. And finally, these textbooks confirmed that any examination of references in the classical literature to Blacks in Egypt, Kush, Mesopotamia and Greece\Crete exhibited constancy to the evidence recovered from archaeological excavations in the Middle East and the Aegean. They in turn disconfirmed the "Aryan Model", which proved to be a falsification of the authentic history of Blacks in early times.

The creation of africalogical textbooks provided us with a number of facts revealing the nature of the afrocentric ancient history paradigms. They include a discussion of:

1) the artifacts depicting Blacks found at ancient sites

recovered through archaeological excavation;

2) the confirmation of the validity of the classical and Old

Testament references to Blacks as founders of civilization in Africa and Asia;

3) the presence of isolated pockets of Blacks existing outside Africa; and

4) that the contemporary Arab people in modern Egypt are not the descendants of the ancient Egyptians.


The early africalogical textbooks also outlined the africalogical themes research should endeavor to study. A result, of the data collected by the africalogical ancient history research pioneers led to the development of three facts by the end of the 19th century, which needed to be solved by the afrocentric paradigms:

(1) What is the exact relationship of ancient Egypt, to Blacks in other parts of Africa;

(2) How and when did Blacks settle America, Asia and Europe;

(3) What are the contributions of the Blacks to the rise, and cultural expression ancient Black\African civilizations;

(4) Did Africans settle parts of America in ancient times.

As you can see the structure of Afrocentrism were made long before Boas and the beginning of the 20th Century.In fact , I would not be surprised if Boas learned what he talked about from the early Afrocentric researchers discussed in this post.

As you can see Afro-Americans have be writing about the Global history of ancient Black civilizations for almost 200 years. It was Afro-Americans who first mentioned the African civilizations of West Africa and the Black roots of Egypt. These Afro-Americans made Africa a historical part of the world.

Afro-American scholars not only highlighted African history they also discussed the African/Black civilizations developed by African people outside Africa over a hundred years before Bernal and Boas.

Your history of what you call "negrocentric" or Black Studies is all wrong. It was DuBois who founded Black/Negro Studies, especially Afro-American studies given his work on the slave trade and sociological and historical studies of Afro-Americans. He mentions in the World and Africa about the Jews and other Europeans who were attempting to take over the field.

Hansberry
There is no one who can deny the fact that Leo Hansberry founded African studies in the U.S., not the Jews.Hansberry was a professor at Howard University.

Moreover, Bernal did not initiate any second wave of "negro/Blackcentric" study for ancient Egyptian civilization. Credit for this social science push is none other than Chiek Diop, who makes it clear that he was influenced by DuBois.



DuBois


These scholars recognized that the people of ancient Greece, Southeast Asia and Indo-China were African people. When giants in study of Afrocentrism discussed Blacks in Asia they were talking about people of African descent. So when you claim that these civilizations should be outside the study area of Afrocentric scholars you don't know what you're talking about.

These researchers used anthropological, archaeological historical and linguistic evidence to support their conclusions. It is only natural that these well founded hypotheses developed by these scholars can be supported by population genetics.

My papers have been published in peer reviewed journals for over 20 years, because they are a continuation and confirmation of the research of Afro-American researchers and Diop.


REFERENCES

Anselin, A. (1982). Le mythe d' Europe. Paris: Editions Anthropos.

_______.(1982b). "Zeus, Ethiopien Minos Tamoul", Carbet Revue

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_______.(1989). "Le Lecon Dravidienne",Carbet Revue Martinique

de Sciences Humaines, no.9:7-58.

Asante,M.A. (July-August, 1996). "Ancient Truths", Emerge , 66-70.

Asante,M.K. (1990) Kemet,Afrocentricity,and Knowledge. Trenton

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_________ (1991). "The Afrocentric idea in Education",Journal

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__________.(December 1991/January 1992). "Afrocentric Curri-

culum".Educational Leadership, pp.28-31.

Bernal, M. (1996, Spring). The Afrocentric interpretation of history: Bernal replies to Lefkowitz. Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, 86-95.

Bernal,M. (1987). Black Athena. New York: Free Association Press. Volume 1.

________. (1991). Black Athena. New York: Free Association Press. Volume 2.

Blyden, E.W. ( January, 1869). The Negro in ancient history.

Methodist Quarterly Review, 71-93.

Blyden, E.W. (1887). Christianity, Islam and the Negro Race. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press.

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_______________.(1905). West Africa before Europe. London:

C.M. Phillips.

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Cornish, S. & Russwurm, J.B. (1827). European colonies in America, Freedom Journal, 1.

Carruthers, J. (1977). Writing for Eternity, black book bulletin,

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Carruthers, J. (1980). Reflections on the history of afrocentric

worldview, black book bulletin, 7(1), 4-13, 25.

Delany, M.R. (1978). The origin of races and color. Baltimore, M.D.: Black Classic Press.

Diop,C.A. (1974). The African Origin of Civilization. (ed. & Trans) by Mercer Cook, Westport:Lawrence Hill & Company.

_________.(1977). Parente genetique de l'Egyptien Pharaonique et

des Languaes Negro-Africaines. Dakar: IFAN ,Les Nouvelles

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__________.(1978) The Cultural Unity of Black Africa. Chicago: Third World Press.

__________. (1981). A Methodology for the study of migration.

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Paris: UNESCO.

___________.(1986). "Formation of the Berber Branch". In Libya

Antiqua. (ed.) by Unesco,(Paris: UNESCO) pp.69-73.

____________.(1987). Precolonial Black Africa. (trans. ) by

Harold Salemson, Westport: Lawrence Hill & Company.

____________.(1988). Nouvelles recherches sur l'Egyptien ancient

et les langues Negro-Africaines Modernes. Paris: Presence

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_____________(1991). Civilization or Barbarism: An Authentic Anthropology. (trans.) by Yaa-Lengi Meema Ngemi and (ed.) by

H.J. Salemson and Marjoliiw de Jager, Westport:Lawrence

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Douglas, F. (1966). The claims of the Negro ethnologically considered. In H. Brotz (Ed.), Negro social and political

thought (pp. 226-244). New York: Basic Books, Inc., Pub.

DuBois, W.E.B. (1924). The Gift of Black Folks. Boston.

DuBois, W.E.B. (1970). The Negro. New York: Oxford University

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DuBois, W.E.B. (1965). The world and Africa. New York :

International Publishers Co., Inc.

Ferris, W.H. (1913). The African abroad. 2 vols. New Haven,CT

:Tuttle, Morehouse and Taylor.

Garvey, M. (1966). Who and What is a Negro. In H. Brotz (Ed.), Negro social and political thought (pp. 560-562).New York: Basic Books, Inc. Publishers.

Graves, Robert. (1980). The Greek Myths. Middlesex:Peguin Books

Ltd. 2 volumes.

Hansberry, L.H. (1981). Africa and Africans: As seen by classical

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Hopkins, P.E. (1905). A Primer of Facts pertaining to the early greatness of the african race and the possibility of restoration by its descendants-with epilogue. Cambridge: P.E. Hopkins & Com.

Hume, D. (1875). Essays: Moral political and literary. T.H. Green

and T.H. Grose. 2 Vols. London.

Jackson, J. (1974). Introduction to African civilization.

Secaucus, N.J.: Citadel Press.

James, G.M. (1954). Stolen legacy. New York: Philosophical Library.

Kuhn, T.S. (1996). The structure of scientific revolution.

Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Lacouperie, Terrien de. (1891). The black heads of Babylonia and ancient China, The Babylonian and Oriental Record, 5 (11), 233-246.

Lawrence, H.G. (1962). African explorers of the New World,

The Crisis, 321-332.

Merton, R.K. (1957). Social theory aand social structure.

Glencoe, Ill. : The Free Press.

Moitt,B. (1989). "Chiekh Anta Diop and the African Diaspora:

Historical Continuity and Socio-Cultural Symbolism".

Presence Africaine, no. 149-150:347-360.

Parker,G.W. (1917) . "The African Origin of Grecian Civilization

".Journal of Negro History, 2(3):334-344.

___________. (1981). The Children of the Sun. Baltimore,Md.:

Black Classic Press.

Perry, R.L. (1893). The Cushite. Brooklyn: The Literary Union.

Rawlinson, George. (1928).The History of Herodutus. New York

: Tudor.

Schomburg, A.A. (March, 1925).The Negro digs up his past.

Survey Graphic, 670-672.

Schomburg, A.A. (1979). Racial integrity. Baltimore, M.D.:

Black Classic Press.

Thompson, Jr. A.A. (1975). Pre-Columbian [African] presence

in the Western Hemisphere,Negro History Bulletin, 38 (7), 452-456.

Williams, G.W. (1869). History of the Negro Race in America. New York: G.P. Putnam.

Wimby, D. (1980). The Greco-Roman Tradition concerning Ethiopia and Egypt, black books bulletin, 7(1), 14-19, 25.

Winters, C.A. (1977). The influence of the Mande scripts on ancient American writing systems", Bulletin l'de IFAN, T39, serie B, no. 2 (1977), pp.941-967.

Winters, C.A. (1979). Manding Scripts in the New World", Journal of African Civilizations, l(1), 80-97.

Winters,C.A. (December 1981/ January 1982). Mexico's Black Heritage. The Black Collegian, 76-84.

Winters, C.A. (1983a). "The Ancient Manding Script". In Blacks

in Science:Ancient and Modern. (ed.) by Ivan van Sertima, (New Brunswick: Transaction Books) pp.208-215.

__________. (1983b). "Les Fondateurs de la Grece venaient d'Afrique en passant par la Crete". Afrique Histoire (Dakar), no.8:13-18.

_________. (1983c) "Famous Black Greeks Important in the development of Greek Culture". Return to the Source,2(1):8.

________.(1983d). "Blacks in Ancient China, Part 1, The Founders

of Xia and Shang", Journal of Black Studies 1 (2), 8-13.

________. (1984a). "Blacks in Europe before the Europeans".

Return to the Source, 3(1):26-33.

Winters, C.A. (1984b). Blacks in Ancient America, Colorlines, 3(2), 27-28.

Winters, C.A. (1984c). Africans found first American Civilization , African Monitor, l , pp.16-18.

_________.(1985a). "The Indus Valley Writing and related

Scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC". India Past and

Present, 2(1):13-19.

__________. (1985b). "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians,

Manding and Sumerians". Tamil Civilization,3(1):1-9.

__________. (1985c). "The Far Eastern Origin of the Tamils",

Journal of Tamil Studies , no.27, pp.65-92.

__________.(1986). The Migration Routes of the Proto-Mande.

The Mankind Quarterly,27 (1), 77-96.

_________.(1986b). Dravidian Settlements in Ancient Polynesia.

India Past and Present, 3 (2), 225-241.

__________. (1988). "Common African and Dravidian Place Name

Elements". South Asian Anthropologist, 9(1):33-36.

__________. (1989a). "Tamil, Sumerian, Manding and the Genetic

Model". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics,18(1):98-127.

__________. (1989b). "Review of Dr. Asko Parpola's 'The Coming of the Aryans'",International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(2):98-127.

__________. (1990). "The Dravido-Harappan Colonization of Central Asia". Central Asiatic Journal, 34(1/2):120-144.

___________. (1991). "The Proto-Sahara". The Dravidian Encyclopaedia, (Trivandrum: International School of Dravidian Linguistics) pp.553-556. Volume l.

----------.(1994). Afrocentrism: A valid frame of reference, Journal of Black Studies, 25 (2), 170-190.

_________.(1994b). The Dravidian and African laguages, International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 23 (1), 34-52.

________.2007. Afrocentrism Myth or Science.www.lulu.com Here


Woodson, C.G. & Wesley, C.H. (1972). The Negro in Our History. Washington, D.C. Associated Publisher.


Get up off your knees and learn from the Afro-American scholars who began the study of Blacks in ancient history.


In conclusion, Afrocentrism is a mature social science. A social science firmly rooted in the scholarship of Afro-American researchers lasting almost 200 years. Researchers like Marc Washington, Mike and I are continuing a tradition of scholarship began 20 decades ago. All we are doing is confirming research by DuBois and others, that has not been disconfirmed over the past 200 years.


Aluta continua.....The struggle continues.....
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Only Euronuts and their negro and asian flunkies believe the Dravidians did not come from Africa.

It was Dravidians who proved that Dravidian speaking people originated in Africa, and that Dravidians and Africans are related historically and genetically.

K.P. Aravanan, former Vice-Chancellor of Manonmaniyam Sundaranar University




Dravidian speaking people recognize their African heritage. See:

Aravanan KP. 1976. ''Physical and cultural similarities between Dravidians and Africans''. Journal of Tamil Studies 10:23–27;

Aravanan KP. 1979. "Notable negroid elements in Dravidian India". J Tamil Studies 20–45.

Aravanan KP. 1980. Dravidians and Africans, Madras.



LOL. These Dravidians do not look like caucasoids.
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U. P. Upadhyaya and S.P. Upadhyaya



1. 'Dravidian and Negro-African', U.P.Upadhyaya, Intnl. J. of Dravidian Linguisitsics 5:1 (1976) 32-64

2. U. P.Upadhyaya & S.P.Upadhyaya, 'Affinites ethno-linguistiques entre Dravidiens et les Negro-Africain' , Bull. IFAN , no.1 (1976) pp.127-157

3. U. P. Upadhyaya & S.P. Upadhyaya, 'Les liens entre Kerala et l"Afrique tels qu'ils resosortent des survivances culturelles et linguistiques', Bulletin de L'IFAN , no.1 (1979) pp.100-132

quote:

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A Speaker of the Tulu Dravidian Language


2009

In a small discrete village of Majur, around three kilometres from Kaup on the road to Shirva, adjacent to 300 years old temple of Shri Durga Parameshwari, lives an elderly couple-Dr. Uliyar Padmanabha Upadhyaya (76 years) and Dr. Susheela P Upadhyaya (73 years). When i met them in mid-August they appeared to be frail, simple, unassuming, friendly and warm. After interacting with them for two hours, i had nothing but awe, admiration and reverence to this great couple whose scholarship in linguistics and folk culture especially that of the Tulunadu has been appreciated by scholars not only in India but also in Europe, America and Africa. Their monumental contribution to the Tulu language is the Tulu Lexicon (Tulu Nighantu) in six volumes, which they value the most as their labour of love and sacrifice. Besides, this significant work, their numerous research books and articles on the folk culture and literature of Tulunadu has enriched the Tuluva heritage.

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers. These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande

and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent. ( Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b,1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite. This explains the analogy between the Bafsudraalam languages outlined briefly above. These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid (1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic cultureand the growth of its population".

The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed Africans. (Jelinek, 1985,p.273) The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985).

The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South. (Diop 1986) A Tehenu
personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.

The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists(Jelinek, 1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement. Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC.

The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.



The C-Group founded the Kerma dynasty of Kush. Diop (1986, p.72) noted that the "earliest substratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara". Kerma was first inhabited in the 4th millennium BC (Bonnet 1986). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.


The linguistic, anthropological and linguistic data make it clear that these people came to India from Africa during the Neolithic and not the Holocene period.

In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The traditional view for the population origins in India suggest that the earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Clyde A. Winters, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians",Tamil Civilizations 3, no.1(1985), pp.1-9. (http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf ). The the Proto-Dravidians were probably one of the cattle herding groups that made up the C-Group culture of Nubia Kush (K.P. Aravanan, "Physical and Cultural Similarities between Dravidian and African", Journal of Tamil Studies, no.10 (1976, pp.23-27:24. ).

B.B. Lal ("The Only Asian expedition in threatened Nubia:Work by an Indian Mission at Afyeh and Tumas", The Illustrated London Times , 20 April 1963) and Indian Egyptologist has shown conclusively that the Dravidians originated in the Saharan area 5000 years ago. He claims they came from Kush, in the Fertile African Crescent and were related to the C-Group people who founded the Kerma dynasty in the 3rd millennium B.C. (Lal 1963) The Dravidians used a common black-and-red pottery, which spread from Nubia, through modern Ethiopia, Arabia, Iran into India as a result of the Proto-Saharan dispersal.


B.B. Lal (1963) a leading Indian archaeologist in India has observed that the black and red ware (BRW) dating to the Kerma dynasty of Nubia, is related to the Dravidian megalithic pottery. Singh (1982) believes that this pottery radiated from Nubia to India. This pottery along with wavy-line pottery is associated with the Saharo-Sudanese pottery tradition of ancient Africa .


Aravaanan (1980) has written extensively on the African and Dravidian relations. He has illustrated that the Africans and Dravidian share many physical similarities including the dolichocephalic indexes (Aravaanan 1980,pp.62-263; Raceand History.com,2006), platyrrhine nasal index (Aravaanan 1980,pp.25-27), stature (31-32) and blood type (Aravaanan 1980,34-35; RaceandHistory.com,2006). Aravaanan (1980,p.40) also presented much evidence for analogous African and Dravidian cultural features including the chipping of incisor teeth and the use of the lost wax process to make bronze works of arts (Aravaanan 1980,p.41).

There are also similarities between the Dravidian and African religions. For example, both groups held a common interest in the cult of the Serpent and believed in a Supreme God, who lived in a place of peace and tranquility ( Thundy, p.87; J.T. Cornelius,"Are Dravidians Dynastic Egyptians", Trans. of the Archaeological Society of South India 1951-1957, pp.90-117; and U.P. Upadhyaya, "Dravidian and Negro-African", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 5, no.1) .

There are also affinities between the names of many gods including Amun/Amma and Murugan . Murugan the Dravidian god of the mountains parallels a common god in East Africa worshipped by 25 ethnic groups called Murungu, the god who resides in the mountains .


There is physical evidence which suggest an African origin for the Dravidians. The Dravidians live in South India. The Dravidian ethnic group includes the Tamil, Kurukh, Malayalam, Kananda (Kanarese), Tulu, Telugu and etc. Some researchers due to the genetic relationship between the Dravidians and Niger-Congo speaking groups they call the Indians the Sudroid (Indo-African) Race(RaceandHistory,2006).

Dravidian languages are predominately spoken in southern India and Sri Lanka. There are around 125 million Dravidian speakers. These languages are genetically related to African languages. The Dravidians are remnants of the ancient Black population who occupied most of ancient Asia and Europe.

Linguistic Evidence

1.1 Many scholars have recognized the linguistic unity of Black African (BA) and Dravidian (Dr.) languages. These affinities are found not only in the modern African languages but also that of ancient Egypt. These scholars have made it clear that lexical, morphological and phonetic unity exist between African languages in West and North Africa as well as the Bantu group.

1.2 K.P. Arvaanan (1976) has noted that there are ten common elements shared by BA languages and the Dr. group. They are (1) simple set of five basic vowels with short-long consonants;(2) vowel harmony; (3) absence of initial clusters of consonants; (4) abundance of geminated consonants; (5) distinction of inclusive and exclusive pronouns in first person plural; (6) absence of degrees of comparison for adjectives and adverbs as distinct morphological categories; (7) consonant alternation on nominal increments noticed by different classes; (8)distinction of completed action among verbal paradigms as against specific tense distinction;(9) two separate sets of paradigms for declarative and negative forms of verbs; and (l0) use of reduplication for emphasis.

1.3 There has been a long development in the recognition of the linguistic unity of African and Dravidian languages. The first scholar to document this fact was the French linguist L. Homburger (1950,1951,1957,1964). Prof. Homburger who is best known for her research into African languages was convinced that the Dravidian languages explained the morphology of the Senegalese group particularly the Serere, Fulani group. She was also convinced that the kinship existed between Kannanda and the Bantu languages, and Telugu and the Mande group. Dr. L. Homburger is credited with the discovery for the first time of phonetic, morphological and lexical parallels between Bantu and Dravidians

1.6 By the 1970's numerous scholars had moved their investigation into links between Dr. and BA languages on into the Senegambia region. Such scholars as Cheikh T. N'Diaye (1972) a Senegalese linguist, and U.P. Upadhyaya (1973) of India , have proved conclusively Dr. Homburger's theory of unity between the Dravidian and the Senegalese languages.

1.7 C.T. N'Diaye, who studied Tamil in India, has identified nearly 500 cognates of Dravidian and the Senegalese languages. Upadhyaya (1973) after field work in Senegal discovered around 509 Dravidian and Senegambian words that show full or slight correspondence.
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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Only Euronuts and their negro and asian flunkies believe the Dravidians did not come from Africa.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

I am very much interested in what info you have on the Garamantes.

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

THE OLYMPIAN CREATION MYTH
in
Robert Graves
The Greek Myths
New York: George Braziller, Inc., 1959
Chapter 3 (in any edition)

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

... you say the Hekatonchieres (hundred-handers) are connected with Libyo-Thracians.

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... is Graves merely making wild speculations on etymology or rather typology ...

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Graves seems to identify the Garama with a goddess in Anatolia and Greece. How true is this,

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Libyo-Thracians. So this means both Libyans and Thracians? How so, and what is the connection between these two people??

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THE BIRTH OF ATHENE

According to the Pelasgians, the goddess Athene was born beside
Lake Tritonis in Libya, where she was found and nurtured by the
three nymphs of Libya, who dress in goat-skins. ... Coming to
Greece by way of Crete, she lived in the city of Athenae by the
Boetian river Triton.

1. Plato identified Athene, patroness of Athens, with the Libyan
goddess Neith, who belonged to an epoch when fatherhood was not
recognized. Neith had a temple at Sais, where Solon was treated
well merely because he was an Athenian.
...
The aegis, however, a magical goat-skin bag containing a serpent
and protected by a Gorgon mask, was Athene's long before Zeus
claimed to be her father. Goat-skin aprons were the habitual
costume of Libyan girls, ... Herodotus writes" 'Athene's garments
and aegis were borrowed by the Greeks from the Libyan women, who
are dressed in exactly the same way, except that their leather
garments are fringed with thongs not serpents.' Ethiopian girls
still wear this costume, which is sometimes ornamented with cowries,
a yonic symbol. Herodotus adds here that the loud cries of triumph,
olulu, olulu, uttered in honour of Athene [in the Illiad 6.297-301]
were of Libyan origin. ...

2. Pottery finds suggest a Libyan immigration into Crete as
early as 4000 BC; and a large number of goddess-worshipping
Libyan refugees from the Western Delta seemed to have arrived
there when Upper and Lower Egypt were forcefully united under
the 1st Dynasty about the year 3000 BC. The 1st Minoan Age
began soon afterwards, and Cretan culture spread to Thrace
and early Hellenic Greece.

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Acacallis was Apollo's first love; ... he found
Acacallis at the house of Carmanor, ... and
seduced her. minos was vexed, and banished
Acacallis to Libya where, some say, she became
the mother of Garamas, though others claim that
he was the first man ever born.

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I thought the Greek legend was that the Aegean Sea was named after the Mycenaean king Aegeus

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Garamantes populi Africae prope Cyrenas
inhabitantes, a Garamante rege Apollinis
filio nominati, qui ibi ex suo nomine Garama
oppidum condidit.

Isidori Hispalensis Episcopi
Etymologiarum sive Originum
9.2.125

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Le nom même des Garamantes signifierait « les gens des maisons ». La racine arhrham ,
« maison, construction », est une racine pan-berbère. Les nombreuses ruines de l'oued
El-Agial témoignent en faveur de cette hypothèse.

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One of the interesting questions to be resolved is
whether the language of the Garamantes was a Berber
tongue or an early form of Tibu, a Saharo-Sahelian
language spoken then as now in the adjacent Tibesti
Mountains just south of the Fezzan.

Civilizations of Africa p.222

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We hypothesize that the differences in animal resources
between the northern and southern Sahara during the early
Holocene influenced the way it was peopled by humans. The
north–south contrast in Saharan species ranges are remarkably
similar to some key lithic, bone tool, and linguistic spatial
distributions, suggesting that the peopling of the region
during the early Holocene humid phase was driven by cultural
adaptations that allowed exploitation of specific fauna.

The early Holocene archaeology of the Sahara is characterized
by a regional distribution of specific archaeological cultures,
such as those defined by barbed bone points, fishhooks, Ounanian
arrow-points, and, more controversially, pottery (32, 35–38).
The Sahara today is largely populated by speakers of Afroasiatic
languages, Berber and Arabic, with some Nilo-Saharan languages
(Teda-Daza and Zaghawa) in the region of Northern Chad, and
Songhay cluster languages scattered across Mali and Niger
(Fig. 3). However, it is clear that this situation is recent;
Berber speaking Tuareg moved into the Central Sahara ~1500 y
ago ... Before this time, the central and southern Sahara are
thought to have been populated by Nilo-Saharan speakers.

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Nikita says that its ''most likely'' that modern Berbers and the Garamantes population attained the practice from the Nile Valley, likely because of what I said earlier; the tendency to see discontinuity between Epi-Palaeolithic Maghrebi populations and modern Berber populations.

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In North Africa, we find the earliest evidence of
trephinations in the world. For example, there were
three trephined skulls from the Epipalaeolithic site
of Taforalt, Morocco (12000–11000BC), and two
from Afalou-bou-Rhumel, Algeria (8500–6500BC).
The practice continued into later archaeological periods
among the Egyptians. Evidence of trephinations
has been found in one skull from the 12th Dynasty at
Lisht, a 17th–19th Dynasty man from Sesebi, a
27th Dynasty young individual (12–13years) from
Dakhleh Oasis, an adult man from Saqqara
and others. In addition to the aforementioned evidence,
the Edwin Smith papyrus shows that the Egyptians
had a good understanding of neuroanatomy and
head injuries. Outside Egypt, this form
of surgery is rather rare in North Africa, with very few
exceptions. For example, a trephined skull was found
in the 1st millennium BC site of Roknia, Algeria. Another one was documented in
an Egyptian fort in Nubia, although it is not clear
whether the individual exhibiting the lesion was an
Egyptian or a Nubian. Finally, there
is a questionable case of a female from Meroe. In modern times, the practice became common
among Berber groups in order to relieve problems of
headaches following injuries or disease. More specifically, populations known to have
practised trephinations in the 19th–20th centuries are
the Chaouïa Berbers from Algeria, the neighbouring Arab community from El
Kantara and the Tibu or Teda
of the Tibesti.

---

.


Nikita is simply giving the locations
through time where trephinated skulls
in fact exist not merely postulated.
It's a long time from Gafsian culture
to the Garama federation without any
trephinated skulls in the chotts or
desert in between Gafsa and Fezzan
The shortest line timewise is Nile
to Fezzan.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
So I find myself wondering and asking
where is Gafsa trephination reported?
Afalou bou Rhumel and Taforalt are even
more far away from Garama than Gafsa is
both physically and especially so temporally.

Taforalt / Afalou-bou-Rhumel / Gafsa
are part of an Atlas world not the
Saharan world of Fezzan.






Garama being located nearer Fezzan/Acacus/
Ajjer, all four in the Sahara form a more
likely cultural continuity than Garama
would with non-Sahara Gafsa. And I don't
mean as the desert today but the Sahara
going from green to sand.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Nikita is simply giving the locations
through time where trephinated skulls
in fact exist not merely postulated.
It's a long time from Gafsian culture
to the Garama federation without any
trephinated skulls in the chotts or
desert in between Gafsa and Fezzan
The shortest line timewise is Nile
to Fezzan.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Taforalt / Afalou-bou-Rhumel / Gafsa
are part of an Atlas world not the
Saharan world of Fezzan.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Occurences of Greco-Latins appending nte to African ethnies.

Garama-ntes ____ Garamas
Alta-ntes ______ Atlas

The above two are a perfect match
Two more examples below

Atara-nte
Zyga-nte
Gamphaza-nte
Gyza-nte

-antes appears to be a Greco-Latin suffix.

Noun forming suffixes

Suffix __ Meaning ________ Origin

ant ____ thing or one who ____ Latin
ance ___ state of being ______ Latin


Garamante is the people, Garamantia the nation.
Again all this is from a non-African language base.
The African language(s) this is based on has the
word Garama/Djerma/Jerma (soft g like a j not a
hard g like in gate).

Since neither Garamas nor Garama have an nte
in them we conclude nte is a suffix not found on
the name of Garamas the eponymous ancestor
nor on Garama the city named after Garamas.
Thus the nte suffix holds well when appended
to Garama making Garama-nte mean those of
Garama(s) just as the Atla-nte are those of
Atlas.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
It's not worth my time to get into this with
you here. Rather than embarass your lingual
skills here, anyone interested in the easy
dismisal of your "refutation" can find it @
http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/post/1574
ESR Forgotten Garamantes page3 5th post from bottom

Again the simple timeline of Minoa vs Garama
proves Crete was finished hundred of years
before Garamantia started.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
No Tuareg ethnic group(s) existed until after
Garama was finished. It's anachronistic to
speak of ancient and pre-historic North African
genetics in terms of Tuareg instead of what it
really is the generic genetics of a very broad
region in Africa where by the late Holocene
many distinct ethnies began forming up until today.

To the best of my meager knowledge the Kel
came into existence when people at the NW
coast of what today is Libya (Tripolitania
as the Greeks named this region) fled in
the face of Arab intrusion. Traveling south
they inhabited the Hoggar (Ahaggar after the
Hawara people, themselves immigrants later in
time than the Kels) mingling and mixing with
its inhabitants and other incoming peoples
to become "the Tuareg." At least this is the
majority Euro-centered take considering only
the northern or Sanhadja major phratry. Usually
ignored is the southern or banu Tanamak, the
other major phratry. Next to nothing cultural
aligns this 11th century ethny, Tuareg (both
phratries) to the Garama. Afaik, this applies
to Tubu too.

Thing is though, Ptolemy does mention one of
the Garamas people, Tedamansii, hundreds
of years before a people known as Targui
are first recorded, Targa being another
name for oasis Fezzan sites (though if
targa simply means garden I can't see
how it only applies to Fezzan oases but
as far as my researching goes it does.).

---

Ptolemy does not mention a people called Garamas, he said the Tedamansii tribe was related to the Garamantes people. web page

.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Besides Tubu genetics, Haratin genetics is
also vital in understanding the genetic
history of the Sahara. Raise a cup to us
staying alive until such reports appear.

The field still accept Cavalli-Sforza's
classical nuclear markers defining Beja
(Cushitic) Tuareg (Berber) high affinity.
(Begin reading Cavalli-Sforza1994 p172here)
He posits a 5k split between the two. If
this map is correct Chadic and Berber do
originate near the same geography in line
with Ehret's proto-Chado-Berber.



Initial routing on the map can show movement
of the Beja Cushitic ancestral component in
Tuareg along the same corridor as Chado-Berber
expansion. And WNW bound Nilo-Saharan utilized
this same route. Tubu are Nilo-Saharans.

No major migration was necessary and the
further from the initial contact points
the less of the E Africans. No E Africans
at all needed to be at furthest points of
the language shift of Cushitic Beja to
Tuareg Tamasheq and further on to "Berber."

E African mtDNA would thin out from Tschad
to Fezzan being totally absent in the
Maghreb and language shift still works.
But note Tishkoff2009's STRUCTURE analysis
Fig S13 show Beja and Mzabi essential not
distinct with Beja more E African and Mzabi
more Eurasian.

East African mtDNA in Fezzani Tuareg likely
represents the deme bearing the lect that
North Africans adopted, a proto-language
introduced from W Sudan.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

Your map only depicts early Capsian sites, not Neolithic/terminal Capsian sites extending well into Northern Libya. It doesn't even depict the full extent of Upper Capsian sites as the sites clearly don't go deep into Algeria.

---

Hey my Fela, slow down. Go slow, go slow bruh. pt1

I posted 3 maps none of which are mine.



The first clearly labeled Maurusian extent
and only the Gafsa originating nucleus not
Gafsa's full expansion.




The second shows Late Paleolithic and Epi-
paleolithic sites without delineating any
cultures. Since Afalou-bou-Rhumel wasn't
on the first map I posted this one so all
can see Taforalt/Afalou-bou-Rhumel/Gafsa
are all part of an Atlas perimeter world
(at its closest 1000 km away from Fezzan)
vs a (80 km adjacent) Tassili/Akakus/Fezzan

Sahara world. These two differing regions
necessitate different cultures, economies,
and ethnic groups.




The third map with three African Neolithic zones;
1 - Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic,
2 - Gafsian Neolithic Tradition (not to be confused for either the earlier Gafsian or the earlier Upper Gafsian),
3 - Mediterranean Neolithic.
This map plainly has Gafsian Neolithic Tradition
in northern Libya and just as plainly has Acacus'
Wan Muhuggiag within the Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic
zone. It's a small 80 km stretch from Jabbaren in
Tassili to Ghat in SW Fezzan and an even lesser
distance from Ghat to the Akakus which is actually
in SW Fezzan just east of Ghat. The Acacus is the
site of the famous Uan Muhaggiag Mummy (dubbed the
Black Mummy in Eurocentric terminology).

Besides the obvious pre-Holocene industry
and later distinct Neolitic zones even the
proposed spread of ovicaprines delineate
these two different North African worlds.


 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

I've referred several times now to mtDNA H1 and V and even asked you explicitly to address this genetic data that seemingly points to Capsian heritage in Tuareg, among others. Again, please give your take on this genetic evidence and what role you think it suggests for the Tuareg in the Tunisian/Libyan area, if not long term inhabitation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

Was there technique diversity in the Algerian Epi-Palaeolithic, metal age and modern Algerian instances of trephination? Please specify. What I don't buy into is not something as trivial as the use of separate techniques, what I don't buy is that the (idea of the) practice itself was independently invented 3 times, in the Maghreb.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

You say you're sticking to a Tassili/Acacus/Fezzan Garamante continuum but at the same time seem to oppose Tuareg links to the Garamantes kingdom.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Sources agree that Garama was name of their capital city. Garamante was the name for the tribe.


Garama was the name of the capital city of the Garamantes. Pliny the Elder wrote"clarissimumque Garama caput Garamantum, the "well known Garam capital, of the Garamantes".

See:

www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/20....ert.kingdom.htm


A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.


The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

What modern Libyan ethnic group would this Tassili/Acacus/Fezzan mix translate into, and would this amalgam not contradict your link of the Garamantes with the Tebu, who are clearly a Chadic population, with Chadic ancestry? You also mentioned Tebu tomb architecture as far West as South Central Algeria, please specify how you've come to this conclusion. [/QB]

---

Slow down. Go slow, go slow. pt5

There is no one modern Libyan ethnic the prehistoric
Tassili/Acacus/Fezzan translate to. And why would there
have to be only one such group?

Since when are Tubu "clearly a Chadic population, with Chadic ancestry"?

I didn't come to the conclusion that Tin Hinan's
tomb displays Tubu architectural features. That's
something I got from Bovill's Golden Trade o/t Moors
previously titled Caravans o/t Old Sahara.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
This is pure conjecture. The Tuareg claim a western origin, not an origin in the Fezzan.
Ehret maintains that the Tuareg do not expand into the central Sahara until the 1st Millennium AD (Heine and Nurse, African languages , p.292). This proposed migration would agree with Tuareg origin myth.

The late expansion of the Tuareg into the Fezzan would not support a common origin for the Beja and Tuareg. Moreover this idea of a Proto Chado-Berber group which includes Tuareg is without merit. Ehret places Berber languages in his myhtical Erythraic group.

Moreover I don't know where Tukuler developed the idea that the "Initial routing on the map can show movement of the Beja Cushitic ancestral component in Tuareg along the same corridor as Chado-Berber expansion." LOL. There are typological features shared by Beja and Tuareg, but there are no so-called "Beja Cushitic ancestral component in Tuareg " because the Tuareg came from the West, while the Beja lived in the east.







AfroAsiatic does not exist and you can not reconstruct the Proto-language.

This is true. Ehret (1995) and Orel/Stolbova (1995) were attempts at comparing Proto-AfroAsiatic. The most interesting fact about these works is that they produced different results. If AfroAsiatic existed they should have arrived at similar results. The major failur of these works is that there is too much synononymy. For example, the Proto-AfroAsiatic synonym for bird has 52 synonyms this is far too many for a single term and illustrates how the researchers just correlated a number of languages to produce a proto-form.

This makes it clear that you can not reconstruct Afro-Asiatic. It is assumed that if languages are related you should be able to reconstruct the proto-language of the language family. There was no such thing as a Proto-Chado-Berber.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Besides Tubu genetics, Haratin genetics is
also vital in understanding the genetic
history of the Sahara. Raise a cup to us
staying alive until such reports appear.

The field still accept Cavalli-Sforza's
classical nuclear markers defining Beja
(Cushitic) Tuareg (Berber) high affinity.
(Begin reading Cavalli-Sforza1994 p172here)
He posits a 5k split between the two. If
this map is correct Chadic and Berber do
originate near the same geography in line
with Ehret's proto-Chado-Berber.



Initial routing on the map can show movement
of the Beja Cushitic ancestral component in
Tuareg along the same corridor as Chado-Berber
expansion. And WNW bound Nilo-Saharan utilized
this same route. Tubu are Nilo-Saharans.

No major migration was necessary and the
further from the initial contact points
the less of the E Africans. No E Africans
at all needed to be at furthest points of
the language shift of Cushitic Beja to
Tuareg Tamasheq and further on to "Berber."

E African mtDNA would thin out from Tschad
to Fezzan being totally absent in the
Maghreb and language shift still works.
But note Tishkoff2009's STRUCTURE analysis
Fig S13 show Beja and Mzabi essential not
distinct with Beja more E African and Mzabi
more Eurasian.

East African mtDNA in Fezzani Tuareg likely
represents the deme bearing the lect that
North Africans adopted, a proto-language
introduced from W Sudan.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
It's anachronistic to
speak of ancient and pre-historic North African
genetics in terms of Tuareg instead of what it
really is the generic genetics of a very broad
region in Africa where by the late Holocene
many distinct ethnies began forming up until today.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
How hard is it to think of relieving pressure
from something by poking a hole in it? That's
the idea that was applied to human skulls by
the most primitive of people the Maurusians
to modern day people coastal Berbers, Tubu,
etc. But the idea never caught on with Tuareg.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
I have absolutely no idea where you ever read me
saying anything even remotely resembling that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
The field still accept Cavalli-Sforza's
classical nuclear markers defining Beja
(Cushitic) Tuareg (Berber) high affinity.
(Begin reading Cavalli-Sforza1994 p172here)
He posits a 5k split between the two. If
this map is correct Chadic and Berber do
originate near the same geography in line
with Ehret's proto-Chado-Berber.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Since when are Tubu "clearly a Chadic population, with Chadic ancestry"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde, people in North Africa who are not Arab are generally called berber.
Therefore if the Garamante did not speak berber some of the the descendants of the Garamante might speak berber or Arabic today and have ancestry from the Garamantes.
This is possible. You think they just disappeared off the face of the earth?
A population sometimes adopts new languages

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Clyde I already wrote about the Tin Hinan
from Tafilalet Morocco Tuareg origin myth.

Did you bother to click the link I gave to
Cavalli-Sforza and his take on Tuareg and
Beja commonality?

No? Why not?

Because it's outside your holy ideaology dogma
just like the Minoa vs Garama timeline debunk.

How you decide data is valid? Simple. If it
contradicts your dogma its invalid, never
mind how ridiculous your ideaology is.

That's why I can't take you seriously and
hardly bother to dialogue with you. I may
as well talk to the hand as present you
with facts you just don't want to hear.

So my stuff is primarily directed to the
ES membership and lurkers as well as drop
by surfers randomly looking for info and
so wind up here.

---

I rarely dialogue with you and never with the racist Djehuti because you fail to have the background to discuss many issues from diverse perspectives. You rarely critically evaluate the research you use and, practice a form of "authority research", that is research based upon the belief that whatever an authority writes is valid and reliable.

I have taught research for almost two decades, and I have always taught my students to be respectful of research while always being critical and asking questions about the research to make sure it is valid and reliable. You never question what you read and assume because it was published it can not be refuted. This gives you a false sense of certainty that you are right when often, you are wrong.

My background is history, anthropology and linguistics. Since I can read a variety of languages and publication history I hvae knowledge of much research. This provides me with a deep literature base.

I evaluated your statements based on linguistic knowledge. I rejected them based on the research of Ehret.

I have made it clear I am a falsificationist. As a result a hypothesis can only be confirmed or disconfirmed. You argued that the Beja and Tuareg descend from a similar ancestor. This is impossible because even Ehret dates their expansion to the first millennium AD.

At this time the Beja were still in Nubia. In fact they later began to write Meroitic inscriptions. Given this reality I can hardly accept your arguments as valid when you failed to make them jel with the historical evidence.

Population genetics are only as valid as the supporting evidence you present to support your inferences. Failure to know the history, anthropology and etc., of an area can lead a researchers to reach conclusions that can be easily dismissed. They can be easily dismissed because the archaeology they use does not reflect the genetic inferences they often make.

.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The Tomb of "Tin Hinan" at Ablessa in the Hoggar
deserves looking into. We don't the name of the
woman buried there. Expelled Tripolitanians, not
arriving at Hoggar until after Hilal and Soleym
Arab times, became the Kel Ahaggar. Finding the
tomb they attached Our Nonna Tin Hinan to it.
Tin Hinan as in their origin myth establishing
Moroccan emmigration.

Thing is the tomb dates to ~350 CE by carbon 14
tests of her bed. A semblance of Roman coin that
dates to Constantine ~313 CE helps fix the time.

According to the tradition Queen Tin Hinan and her
handmaid Takama hail from the far west, Tafilalet
in Morocco. Those of Kel Ahaggar Tuareg subethnies
claim direct descent from either of these women
(respectively as either nobles or vassals). It
would take some time to grow from two women to
an entire people. Who were the fathers? Where
did the father's come from? Does the tradition
mention an entourage or only queen and handmaid?

Taking tradition at face value Morocco is too
distant for Garamas descent. I understand the
great social value of descent traditions but
by science the tomb's date fits the Garama era
centuries before Tripolitanians settled Hoggar.
Garamas traded with the Ahaggar Mountains folk
as it was on the route from Garama to the mid-
Niger Valley network.

Who the entombed woman was or what her particular
ethnic group was is unknown to me. Examining her
cranial and post-cranial remains and her funerary
goods and how she was laid to rest and the tomb
itself for clues may tell us. Again, I wouldn't hold breath waiting on her aDNA report.






 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde, people in North Africa who are not Arab are generally called berber.
Therefore if the Garamante did not speak berber some of the the descendants of the Garamante might speak berber or Arabic today and have ancestry from the Garamantes.
This is possible. You think they just disappeared off the face of the earth?
A population sometimes adopts new languages

---

No. They are suppose to have migrated to the Niger Delta region

.

---

Sanhaja Berbers played a prominent role in the spread of Islam in the Niger Delta region.
The Sanhaja or Senhaja (also Zenaga, Znaga or Sanhadja; were once one of the largest Berber tribal confederations of the Maghreb, along with the Zanata and Masmuda.After the arrival of Islam they also spread out to the borders of the historic Sudan as far as the Senegal River and the Niger. From the 9th century Sanhaja tribes were established in the Middle Atlas range, in the Rif Mountains and on the Atlantic coast of Morocco. A part of the Sanhaja were settled in central/eastern Algeria and northern Niger such as the Kutama, and played an important part in the rise of the Fatimids. The Sanhaja dynasties of the Zirids and Hammadids controlled Ifriqiya until the 12th century.

The descendents of the Sanhaja are found today in the Middle-Atlas and eastern Morocco, the Tuaregs Kutama in northern Niger and Mali[citation needed] across the Sahara, in addition to the Kutama of Kabylie in Algeria (Ketama)
-wiki


Tuareg woman of Niger

 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde, people in North Africa who are not Arab are generally called berber.
Therefore if the Garamante did not speak berber some of the the descendants of the Garamante might speak berber or Arabic today and have ancestry from the Garamantes.
This is possible. You think they just disappeared off the face of the earth?
A population sometimes adopts new languages

---

No. They are suppose to have migrated to the Niger Delta region

.

---

Sanhaja Berbers played a prominent role in the spread of Islam in the Niger Delta region.
The Sanhaja or Senhaja (also Zenaga, Znaga or Sanhadja; were once one of the largest Berber tribal confederations of the Maghreb, along with the Zanata and Masmuda.After the arrival of Islam they also spread out to the borders of the historic Sudan as far as the Senegal River and the Niger. From the 9th century Sanhaja tribes were established in the Middle Atlas range, in the Rif Mountains and on the Atlantic coast of Morocco. A part of the Sanhaja were settled in central/eastern Algeria and northern Niger such as the Kutama, and played an important part in the rise of the Fatimids. The Sanhaja dynasties of the Zirids and Hammadids controlled Ifriqiya until the 12th century.

The descendents of the Sanhaja are found today in the Middle-Atlas and eastern Morocco, the Tuaregs Kutama in northern Niger and Mali[citation needed] across the Sahara, in addition to the Kutama of Kabylie in Algeria (Ketama)
-wiki


Tuareg woman of Niger

---

quote:

---

"Firstly, haplogroup E-M2 (former E1b1a) and haplogroup E-M329 (former E1b1c) are now united by the mutations V38 and V100, reducing the number of E1b1 basal branches to two. The new topology of the tree has important implications concerning the origin of haplogroup E1b1. Secondly, within E1b1b1 (E-M35), two haplogroups (E-V68 and E-V257) show similar phylogenetic and geographic structure, pointing to a genetic bridge between southern European and northern African Y chromosomes. Thirdly, most of the E1b1b1* (E-M35*) paragroup chromosomes are now marked by defining mutations, thus increasing the discriminative power of the haplogroup for use in human evolution and forensics."

[...]

Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.

---

--Beniamino Trombetta et al. (2010)


Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
Ps.

Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3337428/pdf/821.pdf
 

---

Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
 
According to Natural Mystics in Rasta Live Wire the first inhabitant of North Africa, Iberia/Spain and Ireland were black Berber. Iberia was named after the Berber. The Kanuri of Nigeria are named Iberi Beris and they originated from the Garamante area of Fezzan in Libya. The name Iberi Beris may derived from Berber.

One of the most misrepresent people in North Africa are the indigenous Berber people. These beautiful women are not shown on mainstream television, movies and rarely in print. These are the descendants of the ancient Berbers that the ancient Romans spoke of and wrote about.

The original indigenous Berbers were the North African ancestors of the present day dark-brown peoples of the Sahara and the Sahel, mainly those called Fulani, Tugareg, Zenagha of Southern Morocco, Kunta and Tebbu of the Sahel countries, as well as other dark-brown arabs now living in Mauretania and throughout the Sahel, including the Trarza of Mauretania and Senegal, the Mogharba as well as dozens of other Sudanese tribes, the Chaamba of Chad and Algeria.” The Westerners have chosen to concentrate on the most recent world of the Arab and Berber-speaking peoples and present it as if it is a world that has always been. “It is like comparing the Aztecs of five hundred years ago with the ethnic mix of America today,” wrote Reynolds. “The story of when North Africa was Moorish and Arabia, the land of Saracens, has yet to be told.”

- Dana Reynolds, Anthropologist

Anthropologist, Dana Reynolds traced the African roots of the original North African peoples through a dozen Greek and Byzantine (neo-Roman writers) from the first to the sixth century A.D. “They describe the Berber population of Northern Africa as dark-skinned [modern Europeans call dark brown skin color, as black-skinned] and woolly-haired.” Among these writers who wrote about the Berbers were Martial, Silius Italicus, Corippus and Procopius.

Saint Augustine was a dark-skinned Berber and many of the later Roman emperors would have trouble getting citizenship in some of today’s European states.

– Professor Mikuláš Lobkowicz, the former rector of the Munich university and current director of the Institute of Central and East European Studies in Eichstätt.

There are those who say that the Berber is part of the African story of Ham, from the land of Ber, the son of biblical figure Ham.

The original inhabitants of Ireland before the Celts invaded were Berber people who stretch all the way from Saharan Africa to Western Ireland. In North Africa they are known as Berbers, the original people before the Arab invasion of North Africa, they were known to the ancient Greeks and Romans as “barbarians,” the Tuaregs of Nigeria, Niger, Chad, etc. are a Berber people.

[Editors note: the Kanuris of North-Eastern Nigeria are known as the Iberi-beris. They are Berbers originally from Fezzan Libya]

In Spain and Portugal they were known as “Iberians,” which is the name of the Peninsula. In Ireland the Berbers are known as “Hibernians.” The Celts and later invaders pushed them back to the West of Ireland, where you most commonly see the “black Irish” with black hair and brown eyes. The most popular recreational organization of Irish Americans is the Ancient Order of Hibernians (AOH).

Modern Berber family having a traditional meal

The images that are shown in mainstream television, movies and in print are of the lighter skinned people that are also referred as Berber. Modern north Africa has changed a great deal, from waves of invasions such as the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Germanic tribes, Arabs, Turks and the French have led to the amalgamation in the region. The role of literally millions of enslaved Indo-Europeans and concubinage in the creation of admixed populations in cities like Tunis, Tripoli, Fez, Sale and Algiers are well documented. This is the formation of populations in north Africa today. These now lighter skinned people do not call themselves African. In fact, the term “African” is a very demonized term to many, more than likely because of the modern European invasion into Africa, Europeans had to justify their behavior (some still do), and the term African is the object of ridicule and humiliation. The term Berber is now a regional word to apply to these people that now share many common cultural ideas and customs. “
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Egyptian and Berber languages do not share affinity. Examine this comparison of Berber and Egyptian by Obenga.










There is no cognation between Berber and Egyptian languages.

There is also no cultural evidence collected that unite the Berbers and Egyptians. The Berbers only recently came to Siwan as discussed earlier.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West.
The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/ )The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.

Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت‎) a important oasis of the Moroccan is.com/siwa_his.html
)
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West.

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So they have more paternal genetic ancestry related to West Africans than to East Africans?

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This site has been called Gobero, after the local Tuareg name for the area. About 10,000 years ago (7700–6200 B.C.E.), Gobero was a much less arid environment than it is now. In fact, it was actually a rather humid lake side hometown of sorts for a group of hunter-fisher-gatherers who not only lived their but also buried their dead there. How do we know they were fishing? Well, remains of large nile perch and harpoons were found dating to this time period.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ We've told crazy Clyde this how many times now and on how many threads for the past years he's been posting in this forum, yet he refuses to accept the FACTS and clings on to this silly lie that Berber originated in Europe even though there is NO evidence that Berber was ever spoken in Europe as a native language.

Doug, I don't know what those videos on Ethiopia has anything to do with the issue but you are right that Berber languages are related to Ethiopian and Egyptian languages but apparently close to Chadic languages like Hausa in Nigeria as well!

By the way, here are some past threads on Garamantes:

Garamantes nonmetric traits

the Garamantes a ancient african civilization in the sahara/north africa

A Garamante origin to the Egyptian society?

Clyde needs to stop with the nonsense.

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quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ We've told crazy Clyde this how many times now and on how many threads for the past years he's been posting in this forum, yet he refuses to accept the FACTS and clings on to this silly lie that Berber originated in Europe even though there is NO evidence that Berber was ever spoken in Europe as a native language.

Doug, I don't know what those videos on Ethiopia has anything to do with the issue but you are right that Berber languages are related to Ethiopian and Egyptian languages but apparently close to Chadic languages like Hausa in Nigeria as well!

By the way, here are some past threads on Garamantes:

Garamantes nonmetric traits

the Garamantes a ancient african civilization in the sahara/north africa

A Garamante origin to the Egyptian society?

Clyde needs to stop with the nonsense.

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Have you come across any studies comparing Songhay/Sonrai to amazigh language?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ We've told crazy Clyde this how many times now and on how many threads for the past years he's been posting in this forum, yet he refuses to accept the FACTS and clings on to this silly lie that Berber originated in Europe even though there is NO evidence that Berber was ever spoken in Europe as a native language.

Doug, I don't know what those videos on Ethiopia has anything to do with the issue but you are right that Berber languages are related to Ethiopian and Egyptian languages but apparently close to Chadic languages like Hausa in Nigeria as well!

By the way, here are some past threads on Garamantes:

Garamantes nonmetric traits

the Garamantes a ancient african civilization in the sahara/north africa

A Garamante origin to the Egyptian society?

Clyde needs to stop with the nonsense.

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Have you come across any studies comparing Songhay/Sonrai to amazigh language?

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No. Taureg is related. .

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quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ We've told crazy Clyde this how many times now and on how many threads for the past years he's been posting in this forum, yet he refuses to accept the FACTS and clings on to this silly lie that Berber originated in Europe even though there is NO evidence that Berber was ever spoken in Europe as a native language.

Doug, I don't know what those videos on Ethiopia has anything to do with the issue but you are right that Berber languages are related to Ethiopian and Egyptian languages but apparently close to Chadic languages like Hausa in Nigeria as well!

By the way, here are some past threads on Garamantes:

Garamantes nonmetric traits

the Garamantes a ancient african civilization in the sahara/north africa

A Garamante origin to the Egyptian society?

Clyde needs to stop with the nonsense.

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Have you come across any studies comparing Songhay/Sonrai to amazigh language?

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No. Taureg is related. .

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Are you then saying that Toureg are not Amazigh? What would you consider those people?

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• Table 2. Latin loans into Berber, Kabyl examples
  Kabyle Gloss Source
  fuṛaṛ février [February] Latin februaris
  yebrir avril [April] Latin aprilis
  maggu mai [May] Latin maius (mensis), with -i- > gg also attested in
  Arabic loanwords
  tubeṛ octobre [October] Latin october
  buğamber décembre, période de grand froid
  [December, period of cold]
  Latin december, although Kabyle has b- instead of
  dafalku
  faucon [hawk] Latin falco
  tagerfa corbeau [crow] Latin corvus. Dallet (1982: 272) assumes it is from
  Latin but possibly also be Arabic ġurba Ghadames
  ugerf, tugerft
  errigla règle (pour tracer) [(drawing) rule], also
  tarigla, montant vertical [vertical beam
  of weaving loom]
  Latin regula
  tberna taverne, cabaret [inn, pub] Latin taberna
  
  Table 3. Latin loans in Kabyle relating to ox-ploughing
  
  Kabyle Gloss Source
  atmun timon (de la charrue) [plow beam] Latin timonem
  iger champ labouré et ensemencé [plowed and sown field] Latin ager
  ikerrez labourer [to plough] Latin carrus but of Gaulish origin
  tayerza labour [ploughed field] Perhaps Latin aro, or French herser < Latin herpic-. Given
  
  
  

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Older Berber varieties were effectively eliminated through relexification, the gradual replacement of lexical and grammatical structures. It might be assumed that montane agricultural communities would not be subject to the same pressures, but their subsistence systems were also premised on borrowed Roman technology, the plough and orchard cultivation. They adopted the media lengua before transferring to mountainous areas.

http://www.rogerblench.info/Archaeology/Africa/Berber%20prehistory%202012.pdf

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa, or ancient Crete and the Fezzan.The Garamantes were Mande speakers not Berbers.




The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers.Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.



Some Grecian traditions indicate that Fezzanese(called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.


A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.

This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.

The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Eteo-Cretans




The claim that the dna studied in this paper was of the ancient Minoans is a joke. Historians have known for years that the original Cretans were replaced by an Indo-European population after 1500 BC, as a result, we have Linear A, written by the original Minoans, and Linear B written by the Indo-Aryan speaking Minoans.

The people in this study were mainly Indo-European speakers. In the Supplement, the authors make it clear that they used dna from Lassithi cave sample. This dna is roughly dated to "1800" BC. The dna is probably much younger and as a result, it would reflect the invading Indo-European population not the Keftiu=Eteo-Cretans/Eteo-Minoans.

This dna study is just an attempt to protray the Cretans as non-Africa. The dna evidence disputes this myth, because most belong to haplogroups H and U5.

I discuss the probable African origin of haplogroup U5 In my Blog Bafsudralam .

The highest concentration of U5 is found among Berbers in NWA . It is also carried by Mande and Fulani Niger-Congo speakers in West Africa (1-4).

The U5 haplogroup carried by the Mande, like other SSWA is characterized by 16189,16192,16270 and 16320.
The presence of hg U5 among the Mande speakers supports the linguistic evidence concerning the Keftiu.


Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:

quote:

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The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.

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But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.
.

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Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.



Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).


If hg H in Africa is the result of a back migration the highest frequencies of this genome should move from the Levant through Arabia, Egypt and East Africa into the Sahara. But this is not the case in Egypt and Kenya there is o.o% of hg H, Saudi Arabia 8.7% and Yemen 4.7%.
Instead of the highest frequencies of hg H moving from the Levant into Africa, we find that the migration of hg H is reversed. The frequency of hg H, decreases from Western Europe e.g., France 45.4% to 25% in Palestine.
The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, and probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin. The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.

References:
Badro DA, Douaihy B, Haber M, Youhanna SC, Salloum A, et al. (2013) Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations. PLoS ONE 8(1): e54616. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0054616 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054616

Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543
Winters,C.(2012). There has been a Continuous Indigenous Sub-Saharan Presence in North Africa for 30ky. Comment: . http://olmec98.net/ContinuousEurope.pdf

Footnotes

1. Cerný V., Hajek M., Bromova M., Cmejla R., Diallo I. & Brdicka R. 2006. MtDNA of Fulani nomads and their genetic relationships to neighboring sedentary populations. Hum. Biol., 78: 9-27.

2. Rosa A, Brehem A. 2011. African human mtDNA phylogeography at-a-glance. J. Anthropol. Sci, 89:25-58.

3. Coia V., Destro-Bisol G., Verginelli F., Battaggia C., Boschi I., Cruciani F., Spedini G., Comas D. & Calafell F. 2005. Brief communication: mtDNA variation in North Cameroon: lack of Asian lineages and implications for back migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa. Am. J. Phys. Anthropol., 128: 678-681.

4. Ely B., Wilson J.L., Jackson F. & Jackson B.A. 2006. African-American mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in multiple African ethnic groups. BMC. Biol., 4: 34.
.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.

.
Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of H into Africa via Iberia.
This is supported by the fact that the diversity of Haplogroup H is greater in Anatolia and Europe than it is in Africa
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa,

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The Garamantes did not found civilization in Minoa
stop making up stuff

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers.

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The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were NOT Mande Speakers.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

.

.
Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.



Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa,

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The Garamantes did not found civilization in Minoa
stop making up stuff

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers.

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The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were NOT Mande Speakers.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde if it was that easy professional linguists would be supporting this theory

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Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.

[...]

Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP).

[...]

The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) [data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How- ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re- flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers.

[...]

results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.

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Whereas inferred IBD sharing does not indicate directionality, the North African samples that have highest IBD sharing with Iberian populations also tend to have the lowest proportion of the European cluster in ADMIXTURE (Fig. 1), e.g., Saharawi, Tunisian Berbers, and South Moroccans. For example, the Andalucians share many IBD segments with the Tunisians (Fig. 3), who present extremely minimal levels of European ancestry. This suggests that gene flow occurred from Africa to Europe rather than the other way around.

[...]

Alternative models of gene flow: Migration(s) from the Near East likely have had an effect on genetic diversity between southern and northern Europe (discussed below), but do not appear to explain the gradients of African ancestry in Europe. A model of gene flow from the Near East into both Europe and North Africa, such as a strong demic wave during the Neolithic, could result in shared haplotypes between Europe and North Africa. However, we observe haplotype sharing between Europe and the Near East follows a southeast to southwest gradient, while sharing between Europe and the Maghreb follows the opposite pattern (Fig. 2); this suggests that gene flow from the Near East cannot account for the sharing with North Africa.

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Haplogroup H dominates present-day Western European mitochondrial DNA variability (>40%), yet was less common (~19%) among Early Neolithic farmers (~5450 BC) and virtually absent in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.

Here we investigate this major component of the maternal population history of modern Europeans and sequence 39 complete haplogroup H mitochondrial genomes from ancient human remains. We then compare this 'real-time' genetic data with cultural changes taking place between the Early Neolithic (~5450 BC) and Bronze Age (~2200 BC) in Central Europe. Our results reveal that the current diversity and distribution of haplogroup H were largely established by the Mid Neolithic (~4000 BC), but with substantial genetic contributions from subsequent pan-European cultures such as the Bell Beakers expanding out of Iberia in the Late Neolithic (~2800 BC). Dated haplogroup H genomes allow us to reconstruct the recent evolutionary history of haplogroup H and reveal a mutation rate 45% higher than current estimates for human mitochondria.

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Resumen: New data and a review of historiographic information from Neolithic sites of the Malaga and Algarve coasts (southern Iberian Peninsula) and from the Maghreb (North Africa) reveal the existence of a Neolithic settlement at least from 7.5 cal ka BP. The agricultural and pastoralist food producing economy of that population rapidly replaced the coastal economies of the Mesolithic populations. The timing of this population and economic turnover coincided withmajor changes in the continental and marine ecosystems, including upwelling intensity, sea-level changes and increased aridity in the Sahara and along the Iberian coast. These changes likely impacted the subsistence strategies of the Mesolithic populations along the Iberian seascapes and resulted in abandonments manifested as sedimentary hiatuses in some areas during the Mesolithic–Neolithic transition. The rapid expansion and area of dispersal of the early Neolithic traits suggest the use of marine technology. Different evidences for a Maghrebian origin for the first colonists have been summarized.


The recognition of an early North-African Neolithic influence in Southern Iberia and the Maghreb is vital for understanding the appearance and development of the Neolithic in Western Europe. Our review suggests links between climate change, resource allocation, and population turnover.

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