I've been wanting to touch base on this for a while and believe this should be discussed more in depth. A lot of people have this thought that West Africans have always been isolated from the rest of the world in Ancient times and also that they developed civilization very recently. We already know that Tichitt Walata proves that wrong and that they were quite advanced in stone building.
But still...Were Africans isolated throughout "antiquity" or is that a Eurocentric myth? I believe the latter...We all know that the Carthaginians sailed to the West Coast of Africa, but how often did they encounter West Africans? How detailed was the contacts and how close were their relations???
Here is something member Jari posted back on another thread. This one.
quote:The trade of the Phoenicians with the west coast of Africa had for its principal objects the procuring of ivory, of elephant, lion, leopard, and deer-skins, and probably of gold. Scylax relates that there was an established trade in his day (about B.C. 350) between Phoenicia and an island which he calls Cerne, probably Arguin, off the West African coast. "The merchants," he says, "who are Phoenicians, when they have arrived at Cerne, anchor their vessels there, and after having pitched their tents upon the shore, proceed to unload their cargo, and to convey it in smaller boats to the mainland. The dealers with whom they trade are Ethiopians; and these dealers sell to the Phoenicians skins of deer, lions, panthers, and domestic animals--elephants' skins also, and their teeth. The Ethiopians wear embroidered garments, and use ivory cups as drinking vessels; their women adorn themselves with ivory bracelets; and their horses also are adorned with ivory. The Phoenicians convey to them eointment, elaborate vessels from Egypt, castrated swine(?), and Attic pottery and cups. These last they commonly purchase [in Athens] at the Feast of Cups. These Ethiopians are eaters of flesh and drinkers of milk; they make also much wine from the vine; and the Phoenicians, too, supply some wine to them. They have a considerable city, to which the Phoenicians sail up." The river on which the city stood was probably the Senegal.
It will be observed that Scylax says nothing in this passage of any traffic for gold. We can scarcely suppose, however, that the Phoenicians, if they penetrated so far south as this, could remain ignorant of the fact that West Africa was a gold-producing country, much less that, being aware of the fact, they would fail to utilise it. Probably they were the first to establish that "dumb commerce" which was afterwards carried on with so much advantage to themselves by the Carthaginians, and whereof Herodotus gives so graphic an account. "There is a country," he says, "in Libya, and a nation, beyond the Pillars of Hercules, which the Carthaginians are wont to visit, where they no sooner arrive than forthwith they unlade their wares, and having disposed them after an orderly fashion along the beach, there leave them, and returning aboard their ships, raise a great smoke. The natives, when they see the sample, come down to the shore, and laying out to view so much gold as they think the wares are worth, withdraw to a distance. The Carthaginians upon this come ashore again and look. If they think the gold to be enough, they take it and go their way; but if it does not seem to them sufficient, they go aboard ship once more, and wait patiently. Then the others approach and add to their gold, till the Carthaginians are satisfied. Neither party deals unfairly by the other: for they themselves never touch the gold till it comes up to the worth of their goods, nor do the natives ever carry off the goods until the gold has been taken away."
The nature of the Phoenician trade with the Canaries, or Fortunate Islands, is not stated by any ancient author, and can only be conjectured. It would scarcely have been worth the Phoenicians' while to convey timber to Syria from such a distance, or we might imagine the virgin forests of the islands attracting them. The large breed of dogs from which the Canaries derived their later name may perhaps have constituted an article of export even in Phoenician times, as we know they did later, when we hear of their being conveyed to King Juba; but there is an entire lack of evidence on the subject. Perhaps the Phoenicians frequented the islands less for the sake of commerce than for that of watering and refitting the ships engaged in the African trade, since the natives were less formidable than those who inhabited the mainland.
Information supplied by: "http://phoenicia.org
llustration of angus mcbride showing Phoenicians traders trading with Mandé merchants of the Pre-Imperial Mali of the Tichitt-Walata cliffs of Southern Mauritania in The 10th or 8th century BC.
So again how close was their relationship? Were their West Africans in Carthage? This topic has always concerned me.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: [QB] I've been wanting to touch base on this for a while and believe this should be discussed more in depth. A lot of people have this thought that West Africans have always been isolated from the rest of the world in Ancient times and also that they developed civilization very recently. We already know that Tichitt Walata proves that wrong and that they were quite advanced in stone building.
But still...Were Africans isolated throughout "antiquity" or is that a Eurocentric myth? I believe the latter...We all know that the Carthaginians sailed to the West Coast of Africa, but how often did they encounter West Africans? How detailed was the contacts and how close were their relations???
Here is something member Jari posted back on another thread. This one.
The Ancient ksour (medieval trading centres) of Ouadane, Chinguetti, Tichitt and Oualata are trading and religious centres along the ancient Sahara trade routes. These four towns date from the 13th and 14th century.
Chinguetti was a principal gathering place for pilgrims of the Maghrib to gather on the way to Mecca. It became known as a holy city in its own right, especially for pilgrims unable to make the long journey to the Arab Peninsula. Although largely abandoned to the desert, the city features a series of medieval manuscript libraries without peer in West Africa.
The second picture is the The Great "Friday Mosque" of Chinguetti.
Chinguetti is located in northern Mauritania and is considered one of Islam's seven holy cities.
As the center of several trans-Saharan trade routes, The Chinguetti Mosque is a mosque in Chinguetti, Mauritania. It was an ancient center of worship created by the founders of the oasis city of Chinguetti in the Adrar region of Mauritania in the thirteenth or fourteenth century. it was a key stop for caravans carrying gold, salt, dates, and ivory across the Sahara. Chinguetti is also home to an extraordinary collection of important Islamic manuscripts.
The minaret of The Great "Friday Mosque" is supposed to be the second oldest in continuous use anywhere in the Muslim world.
Mauritania, Adrar area, Chinguetti, Al Ahmed Mahmoud library Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
not WA but,
The Great Enclosure, part of the Great Zimbabwe ruins.
Great Zimbabwe
The majority of scholars believe that it was built by members of the Gokomere culture, who were ancestors of modern Shona in Zimbabwe. A few believe that the ancestors of the Lemba or Venda were responsible, or cooperated with the Gokomere in the construction.
The Great Zimbabwe area was settled by the fourth century of the common era. Between the fourth and the seventh centuries, communities of the Gokomere or Ziwa cultures farmed the valley, and mined and worked iron, but built no stone structures. These are the earliest Iron Age settlements in the area identified from archaeological diggings.
Construction and growth Construction of the stone buildings started in the 11th century and continued for over 300 years.The ruins at Great Zimbabwe are some of the oldest and largest structures located in Southern Africa, and are the second oldest after nearby Mapungubwe in South Africa. Its most formidable edifice, commonly referred to as the Great Enclosure, has walls as high as 36 feet (11 m) extending approximately 820 feet (250 m), making it the largest ancient structure south of the Sahara Desert. David Beach believes that the city and its state, the Kingdom of Zimbabwe, flourished from 1200 to 1500, although a somewhat earlier date for its demise is implied by a description transmitted in the early 1500s to João de Barros. Its growth has been linked to the decline of Mapungubwe from around 1300, due to climatic change or the greater availability of gold in the hinterland of Great Zimbabwe.[At its peak, estimates are that Great Zimbabwe had as many as 18,000 inhabitants.The ruins that survive are built entirely of stone. The ruins span 1,800 acres (7.3 km2).
Posted by PreColonialAfrica13 (Member # 21589) on :
Interesting, I wonder why West Africa never adopted the Punic script, seeing as how it has been so influential in the creations of other scripts. Also, in those depictions and passages, are those Carthaginians or Phoenicians? They may share a common ancestry but Carthage was distinct from Phoenicia due to it being a hybrid Semitic-African society.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by PreColonialAfrica13: Interesting, I wonder why West Africa never adopted the Punic script, seeing as how it has been so influential in the creations of other scripts. Also, in those depictions and passages, are those Carthaginians or Phoenicians? They may share a common ancestry but Carthage was distinct from Phoenicia due to it being a hybrid Semitic-African society.
Carthage is not distinct from Pheonica it was a Phoenician colony like Utica, Eivissa, Leptis Magna. The Mediterranean basin in the mid-sixth century B.C., showing the areas colonized by the Greeks (red), Phoenicians (purple) and Etruscans (yellow).
I don't think the degree of indigenous African admixture into these colonies is known. If you have book reference sources please show them
__________________________________
Later>
More spread into WA >
Almoravid 1040–1147 AD Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@The Lioness
Good posts, but do you have anything on West Africans relations with Carthage?
@PrecoloniaAfrica
Agreed.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: [QB] @The Lioness
Good posts, but do you have anything on West Africans relations with Carthage?
look up Hanno
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
llustration by angus mcbride showing Phoenicians traders trading with Mandé merchants of the Pre-Imperial Mali of the Tichitt-Walata cliffs of Southern Mauritania in The 10th or 8th century BC.
somebody blocked out the map in the earlier version of this picture for some reason
The Phoenicians built significant cities in Mauretania, including Lixus, Volubilis and Chellah. After Rome defeated Carthage in the Punic Wars, these Mauritanian cities became important regional centers of this part of the North African Roman Empire. The Romans did some expeditions south of their Mauretania Tingitana, perhaps reaching the area north of the river Senegal populated by the Pharusii tribe
After the defeat of Carthage it became Roman territory
^^^ occuring in what was called Mauretania Tingitana
That is Roman Mauretania spelled with an E these in what is now called Morocco
while modern Mauritania spelled with an is here:
So Tichit-Walata was in the Southern area of what is now modern Mauritania and the closest Phoenican cities were in what is now Morroco ( as well as Tuniisa etc. )
The illustration portays Phoenicians traders trading with Mandé merchants of the Pre-Imperial Mali in the 10th c I'm not sure that happened, would need to see another source verifying it.
Here is post imperial Mali, the mali Empire
as compared to modern Mali which doesn't include that part of modern Mauritania
gets to be a little confusing, same place names, differnt locations in different time periods
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by PreColonialAfrica13: Interesting, I wonder why West Africa never adopted the Punic script, seeing as how it has been so influential in the creations of other scripts. Also, in those depictions and passages, are those Carthaginians or Phoenicians? They may share a common ancestry but Carthage was distinct from Phoenicia due to it being a hybrid Semitic-African society.
They never adopted the script because they already had numerous syllabic systems based on Thinite script.
.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: llustration by angus mcbride showing Phoenicians traders trading with Mandé merchants of the Pre-Imperial Mali of the Tichitt-Walata cliffs of Southern Mauritania in The 10th or 8th century BC.
somebody blocked out the map in the earlier version of this picture for some reason
The Phoenicians built significant cities in Mauretania, including Lixus, Volubilis and Chellah. After Rome defeated Carthage in the Punic Wars, these Mauritanian cities became important regional centers of this part of the North African Roman Empire. The Romans did some expeditions south of their Mauretania Tingitana, perhaps reaching the area north of the river Senegal populated by the Pharusii tribe
After the defeat of Carthage it became Roman territory
^^^ occuring in what was called Mauretania Tingitana
That is Roman Mauretania spelled with an E these in what is now called Morocco
while modern Mauritania spelled with an is here:
So Tichit-Walata was in the Southern area of what is now modern Mauritania and the closest Phoenican cities were in what is now Morroco ( as well as Tuniisa etc. )
The illustration portays Phoenicians traders trading with Mandé merchants of the Pre-Imperial Mali in the 10th c I'm not sure that happened, would need to see another source verifying it.
Here is post imperial Mali, the mali Empire
as compared to modern Mali which doesn't include that part of modern Mauritania
gets to be a little confusing, same place names, differnt locations in different time periods
Good post Lioness, I like the details you put into it. Yeah modern day names of a location is not always the same as the ancient name of a location.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
just wnat to correct myself above Mauretania Tingitana (around Morocco) Used to have Phoenican cities until the Romans took over. But the Roman North Africa territories of which where Carthage was, the region they also took over was in Tunisia part of the larger Roman provinces in North Africa
All the colored areas except the light orange were Roman Empire territory. Notice Number 6 , Tunisia, marked "Africa" . They were calling Africa just that area at first, Carthage a city within it And in earlier times with the Greeks they calling all of the above "Libya" and if I'm not mistaken thought that was thw whole continent we now call Africa
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
^^^Interesting.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
I've been wanting to touch base on this for a while and believe this should be discussed more in depth. A lot of people have this thought that West Africans have always been isolated from the rest of the world in Ancient times and also that they developed civilization very recently.
Keep in mind that numerous areas of EUROPE have been relatively isolated from developments in the Mediterranean, NEAfrica & the Middle East. England was a relatively isolated place until the Roman conquest, as were Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Large parts of the mountainous Balkans have been relatively isolated, as well as large swathes of Eastern Europe. The Slavic peoples of Russia for example were in early eras the prey of other peoples- hence our word today "slave" derives from "Slav". Neither Britain or Russia (two of the strongest nations of the 19th and 20th century respectively) were of much relative account in antiquity as regards so-called "civilization."
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Son of Ra, look up HANNO that's a connect between Pheonicians and West Africans
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
Does anyone have any idea what kind of people would have lived in the area around Carthage before the Phoenicians showed up? Most of you would probably guess Berbers or some related group, but I for one wonder whether some of them could have been people of West African affinity instead. To me it seems possible for West African people to colonize the area sometime before the Sahara turned into a desert.
BTW I drew a portrait of Hannibal just now:
(The beauty scar design on his left cheek is supposed to show a Carthaginian religious symbol, but he would have picked it up from African locals who had a longstanding tradition of ritual scarification.)
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Son of Ra, look up HANNO that's a connect between Pheonicians and West Africans
I did, he was an explorer.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
BTW I drew a portrait of Hannibal just now:
here is an altered version of your picture with some of the black lines removed
which west african groups were in west africa at that time?
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
This picture showing the Canaanite/Phoenician as light skin semite is wrong. The Canaanite were a mixture of a majority black and brown people and a minority semite people. The African tribes that make up the Phoenician/Canaanite were the Philistine Akan of Ghana and Dan of Ivory Coast, Mande. The Somalian, Oromo, Massai, Afar, Tutsi were also Canaanite tribes.
The Canaanite traded all over the Mediterranean sea. They traded in Europe, North Africa, North Europe, East Africa, West Africa, Arabia, India, Mexico, South America and North America etc.
Phoenician/Canaanite
Phoenician/Canaanite/Carthage
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
^^^Sorry but no...
Posted by PreColonialAfrica13 (Member # 21589) on :
I disagree lioness, Carthage was a Phoenician colony(one of many) that evolved into a powerful naval empire independent of phoenicia. What makes them distinct is their mixing with the native berbers of northern africa and the fact that Carthage created colonies throughout Gaul, Iberia, Northern Africa,etc. They were Semitic AND African, they were famous for their African war elephants and using Numidian cavalry.
Posted by PreColonialAfrica13 (Member # 21589) on :
It's always embarrassing to see people claim non-African civilizations as black and African. Why do they feel the need to compensate? Africa is not lacking in rich empires and powerful kingdoms. Why claim other peoples? The Phoenicians were clearly Semitic, and even if they were dark-skinned, they wouldn't necessarily be black. I'd shy away from even using the word black to describe people, especially those in the Middle East or Asia, because "black" as a racial classification is very, very flawed.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
After North African Capsian culture there is 1-2000 year gap of no evidence of human habitation settlements in the Maghreb Possibly there were some nomads around. The Capsians were the last hunter gatherer culture about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE.
Phoenican colonies in Africa around 800-1000 BC
Sea People became active as early as the reign of Akhenaten. An inscription of Ramesses II relates in the 8th year of his reign (which is dated c. 1176 BC):
"No land could stand before their arms, from Hatti, Qode, Carchemish, Arzawa and Alasiya on, being cut off at one time. A camp was set up in one place in Amurru. They desolated its people, and its land was like that which has never come into being. They were coming toward Egypt, while the flame was prepared before them. Their confederation was the Peleset, Tjeker, Shekelesh, Denyen, and Weshesh, lands united. They laid their hands upon the land as far as the circuit of the earth, their hearts confident and trusting: 'Our plans will succeeded!'
_____________________________________
Even during the predynastic period, temple reliefs frequently show Libyans as a defeated enemy, and there are records from the reigns of the Old Kingdom pharaohs Snefru (2613 BC to 2589 BC) and Sahure of specific campaigns against them. Detail of King Snefru from his funerary temple of Dahshur now on the main facade of the Egyptian Museum, Cairo Museum The king is seated on a throne and wears the white robe of royal of the Hed-Seb. 4th Dynasty
LIBYANS
Libyans at right from tomb of Ramesses III 1186–1155 BC
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
I was just browsing Google image search for Carthaginian artifacts, and apparently they made masks with evidence for facial scars!
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Truthcentric
You believe Hannibal was African?
@PreColonialAfrica
Agreed Carthage was both African and Semitic.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
"The religion of Carthage in North Africa was a direct continuation of the polytheistic Phoenician religion of the Levant, with significant local modifications. Controversy prevails regarding the possible existence and practice of propitiatory child sacrifice in the religion of Carthage"
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Truthcentric
You believe Hannibal was African?
Don't think there's hard evidence either way, but I do have another recent drawing of him that portrays him as more African:
And an earlier, more dynamic picture of him brandishing his battle ax: "I shall use fire and steel to arrest the destiny of Rome!"
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I have a photoshopped photo called "what if Truthcentric was Black ???" I'll post it if approved by Truthcentric
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by PreColonialAfrica13:
I disagree lioness, Carthage was a Phoenician colony(one of many) that evolved into a powerful naval empire independent of phoenicia. What makes them distinct is their mixing with the native berbers of northern africa and the fact that Carthage created colonies throughout Gaul, Iberia, Northern Africa,etc. They were Semitic AND African, they were famous for their African war elephants and using Numidian cavalry.
Can you expand and clarify your statements.
African is a continental identity. Semitic is a language not an identity. Many Ethiopians are African and Semitic.
As far as I can make things out Carthage's people over time became more of African ancestry than Levantine and identified themselves strictly as Carthaginian by cultural ethnic identity but not Canaani.
As an example, self identified Carthaginian Severus his tondo shows different phenotypes for himself and his Syrian (Syria => Ssur => Tyre) wife.
Admittedly much ethnic flux over 1000 years altered or added to both North African and Levantine phenotypes. Both regions had their indigenous black types as well as non-black types -- and black is not limited to Africans south of the Sahara, there are many unrelated black peoples in the eastern hemisphere still today.
Many people in the Tunis/Libya region were identified as Liby-Phoenics by the Greeks. I guess these were people who didn't rank one of their antecedents over another.
Others simply retained African identity despite any extra continental infusions.
Anyway, you are absolutely correct that Carthage very early on was completely independent of Canaan though Carthage did pay rent to the Afrigha up until the time of Mago.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
After North African Capsian culture there is
a) 1-2000 year gap of no evidence of human habitation settlements in the Maghreb
b) Possibly there were some nomads around.
So which is it a or b?
I sincerely doubt all the people there disappeared in a puff of smoke for your unspecified time frame.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
After North African Capsian culture there is
a) 1-2000 year gap of no evidence of human habitation settlements in the Maghreb
b) Possibly there were some nomads around.
So which is it a or b?
I sincerely doubt all the people there disappeared in a puff of smoke for your unspecified time frame.
I don't know for sure Lack of evidence for human suggests largely a) -a depopulation that corresponds to the drying of the Sahara. The people would not have disappeared they would have migrated to other parts of Africa just like people left Northern and Central Europe when Ice age temperatires set in.
Libyans are one of the predominant ancient Maghrebian ethnicities. Greeks say they were long haired and it is confirmed in much of the Egyptian art. I have posted several examples of Libyans in E art confirming this. Heodotus described two main regions of Libyans and this breaks down further into tribes Examples of Libyans in Egyptians art show some skin tones similar to Egyptian and others notably lighter. Their exact origin is unknown. They are of a time period when foreign "Sea people" were coming into Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
As far as I can make things out Carthage's people over time became more of African ancestry than Levantine and identified themselves strictly as Carthaginian by cultural ethnic identity but not Canaani.
As an example, self identified Carthaginian Severus his tondo shows different phenotypes for himself and his Syrian (Syria => Ssur => Tyre) wife.
^^Here is the Tondo>
You mean to tell me because he is portrayed here as darker that is proof of primary African deep rooted indigenous origin and not just African by nationality? He was born in Leptis Magna a Roman city in Libya. It's unbelievable to me someone can look at the above picture and think he looks specifically African. He is described as having a Pheonician father and an Italian mother. Could an individual who looked like that have deep rooted indigenous African ancestry? Maybe but where's the evidence?
Are we to assume the below men are primarily African based on skin tone alone?
Look on google images "Cartheginian coins" or "Numidian Coins" or "Mauretanian coins" Most by far most do not look particularly African many look more similar to Greeks and Romans, yet some were minted in Utica which was in Tunisa Africa and the coins sometimes have speicifc named people. Did they have some coins that looked particulary African yes and they have been posted many times before but if you look at the context, proportionatly these are very few and of nameless people. Also an African person living in Carthage is not necessarily an African of North African ancestry.
You can disregard anything I said but you still have to have stronger proof than brown skin to prove that Carthage was primarily comprised of deep rooted indigenous North Africans.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
I didn't read the whole thread. But in general, North African populations like Berbers have various level of African and Eurasian admixture depending on which individual and which populations.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Look on google images "Cartheginian coins" or "Numidian Coins" or "Mauretanian coins" Most by far most do not look particularly African many look more similar to Greeks and Romans, yet some were minted in Utica which was in Tunisa Africa and the coins sometimes have speicifc named people. Did they have some coins that looked particulary African yes and they have been posted many times before but if you look at the context, proportionatly these are very few and of nameless people. Also an African person living in Carthage is not necessarily an African of North African ancestry.
You can disregard anything I said but you still have to have stronger proof than brown skin to prove that Carthage was primarily comprised of deep rooted indigenous North Africans.
It's funny how you insist on this pseudo rant. But when it comes to Africans entering Southern Europe you fight it like a uncontrolled wild cat. You literally stitch stuff together you fantasize about, as if it's a valid argument. And you conveniently leave out certain info. Amusing!
Repost,
Phoenician people themselves were a mixed bunch. And it reflexes in their portrayals. Go figure!
Supplemental Data
Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean
Pierre A. Zalloua, Daniel E. Platt, Mirvat El Sibai, Jade Khalife, Nadine Makhoul, Marc Haber, Yali Xue, Hassan Izaabel, Elena Bosch, Susan M. Adams, Eduardo Arroyo, Ana María López-Parra, Mercedes Aler, Antònia Picornell, Misericordia Ramon, Mark A. Jobling, David Comas, Jaume Bertranpetit, R. Spencer Wells, Chris Tyler-Smith, and The Genographic Consortium
Table S1. Haplogroups and Haplotypes of New Populations Sampled for this Study
"E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by farmers, during the Neolithic expansion" (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: It's funny how you insist on this pseudo rant. But when it comes to Africans entering Southern Europe you fight it like a uncontrolled wild cat. You literally stitch stuff together you fantasize about, as if it's a valid argument. Amusing!
Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe
During the Muslim conquest Arabs, indigenous Africans and part indigenous Africans invaded Iberia and part of Italy. This left genetic imprints
E-M81 is widespread but rare, except in the Iberian Peninsula Spain, where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] it is found at comparable levels to E-M78, with an average frequency of around 5%, and in some regions it is more common. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia, 14% in Western Andalusia and 10% in Northwest Castile and 9% to 17% in Cantabria.[19][33][34][35][36] The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos from Cantabria, ranging from 18% (8/45)[36] to 41% (23/56).[2] An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (10.68%), Gran Canaria (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (13.33%).[37] E-M81 is also found in France,[2] 2.70% (15/555) overall with frequencies surpassing 5% in Auvergne (5/89) and Île-de-France (5/91),[38][39] in Sicily (approximately 2% overall, but up to 5% in Piazza Armerina),[40] and in very much lower frequencies in continental Italy (especially near Lucera)[35] possibly due to ancient migrations during the Islamic, Roman, and Carthaginian empires. As a result of its old world distribution, this subclade is found throughout Latin America, for example 6.1% in Cuba,[41] 5.4% in Brazil (Rio de Janeiro), [Note 7] and among Hispanic men from California and Hawaii 2.4%.[42] In smaller numbers, E-M81 men can be found in areas in contact with [North Africa, both around the Sahara, in places like Sudan, and around the Mediterranean in places like Lebanon, Turkey, and amongst Sephardic Jews. There are two recognized subclades of E-M81, although one is much more important than the other.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: It's funny how you insist on this pseudo rant. But when it comes to Africans entering Southern Europe you fight it like a uncontrolled wild cat. You literally stitch stuff together you fantasize about, as if it's a valid argument. Amusing!
Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe
During the Muslim conquest Arabs, indigenous Africans and part indigenous Africans invaded Iberia and part of Italy. This left genetic imprints [/QB]
Sure lying idiot,
quote:"E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by farmers, during the Neolithic expansion"
--(Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001).
quote: An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) ]makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.
--Beniamino Trombetta et al. (2011)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: It's funny how you insist on this pseudo rant. But when it comes to Africans entering Southern Europe you fight it like a uncontrolled wild cat. You literally stitch stuff together you fantasize about, as if it's a valid argument. Amusing!
Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe
During the Muslim conquest Arabs, indigenous Africans and part indigenous Africans invaded Iberia and part of Italy. This left genetic imprints
Sure lying idiot,
explain in your own words why that's a lie
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: It's funny how you insist on this pseudo rant. But when it comes to Africans entering Southern Europe you fight it like a uncontrolled wild cat. You literally stitch stuff together you fantasize about, as if it's a valid argument. Amusing!
Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe
As stated before, you will fight this African migration in Europe with tooth and nail. Or should I use the word "defending"?lol
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
you should retract saying what I said was a lie because it wasn't a lie.
If you wnat to add Holocene and Neolithic E3 it doesn't mean what I said was a lie. So in fact you saying what I said is a lie > is a lie. You need to study logic and rhetoric
Also you are using reasoning that does not correspond to the very quotes you are using. They were talking about what they called "Middle Eastern" farmer input into Europe. That is from about 7000 years ago coming from Anatolia. Because these farmers had E3 you are taking it upon yourself to call them Africans.
And most of the time people don't know what your point is when you rely on quotes but have a different intent than the authors of those quotes but you don't state it in your own words until I have to press it out of you to be clear
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you should retract saying what I said was a lie because it wasn't a lie.
If you wnat to add Holocene and Neolithic E3 it doesn't mean what I said was a lie. So in fact you saying what I said is a lie > is a lie. You need to study logic an rhetoric
Also you are using reasoning that does not correspond to the very quotes you are using. They were talking about what they called "Middle Eastern" farmer input into Europe. That is from about 7000 years ago coming from Anatolia. Because these farmers had E3 you are taking it upon yourself to call them Africans.
And most of the time people don't know what your point is when you rely on quotes but have a different intent than the authors of those quotes but you don't state it in your own words until I have to press it out of you to be clear
I already stated why you lie, but you are too stupid to grasp this concept.
Your lie is in that you try to ignore the African Holocene and Neolithic migration into Southern Europe. As if they only recently entered Southern Europe during the spread of Islam. This twisted suggestion isn't true, therefore it's a lie. If no one stops you, you simply continue making up shyt!
It's no not me, who needs to learn about logic and rhetoric it's you. You are mixing up time frames to win a argument. A argument which you lost already. All you can do is try to save face. Your pseudo wiki attempts are amusing, liar!
Most of the time people do know my point, most of the time you are called out for what you are, a liar and a twister. A Wikipedia pseudo ranter, with irrelevant picture spamming.
So, to end this, when I cite it's all clearcut, but for you it's not since you are delusional and liar with multiple pseudo accounts.
Repost,
quote: "In this context it is likely that Bronze Age events may have facilitated the southward diffusion of populations carrying northern and central European biological elements and may have contributed to some degree of admixture between northern and central Europeans and Anatolians, and on a larger scale, between northeastern Mediterraneans and Anatolians. Even if we do not know which populations were involved, historical and archaeological data suggest, for instance, the 2nd millenium B.C. Minoan and later Mycenaean occupation of Anatolian coast, the arrival in Anatolia in the early 1st millennium B.C. of the Phrygians coming from Thrace, and later the arrival of settlers from Macedonia in Pisidia and in the Sagalassos territory (under Seleucid rule). The coming of the Dorians from Northern Greece and central Europe (the Dorians are claimed to be one of the main groups at the origin of the ancient Greeks) may have also brought northern and central European biological elements into southern populations. Indeed, the Dorians may have migrated southward to the Peloponnese, across the southern Aegean and Create, and later reached Asia Minor."
[...]
"From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that sub-Saharan genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2004) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey(E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinnioglu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinnioglu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintanna-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic. Indeed, the rare and incomplete 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semal 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile Valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980)-show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens. This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic-early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations."
[...]
"Keeping in mind these three elements, if we consider the affinity of the Sagalassos population with the sub-Saharan populations from Gabon and Somalia, a recent direct contact between these populations and regions probably can be excluded because they are seperated by significant geographic distances. However, indirect contacts through geographically intermediary populations carrying "sub-Saharan"biological features in the late Pleistocene-Holocene period are discussion points."
--F. X. Ricaut M. Waelkens Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
^^^Interesting.
quote: The sandstone escarpment of the Dhar Tichitt in South-Central Mauritania was inhabited by Neolithic agropastoral communities for approximately one and half millennium during the Late Holocene, from ca. 4000 to 2300 BP. The absence of prior evidence of human settlement points to the influx of mobile herders moving away from the “drying” Sahara towards more humid lower latitudes.
quote: Legend holds that Carthage was founded around 825 BC by Queen Dido who had fled from the city of Tyre to escape her murderous brother Pygmalion. Archaeological evidence confirms that Phoenician traders from Tyre founded the city of Qart-Ḥadašt—or "New City," as Carthage was known in its native language—in the second half of the ninth century BC.
Besides the fact I was posting Libyan images here five years before you began posting to ES (many of which you reposted) there are several things you say I could comment on (again like for the 999th time) so instead I'll just ask this:
If Severus' mother was Italian (not merely a Roman citizen) then why did Severus speak with so heavy an accent that he was made fun of and why his embarrassed for his sister who spoke it not at all?
No mama lashon in the home?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: @the Lioness
Besides the fact I was posting Libyan images here five years before you began posting to ES (many of which you reposted) there are several things you say I could comment on (again like for the 999th time) so instead I'll just ask this:
If Severus' mother was Italian (not merely a Roman citizen) then why did Severus speak with so heavy an accent that he was made fun of and why his embarrassed for his sister who spoke it not at all?
No mama lashon in the home?
He spoke Latin and Greek with a Punic accent which is a later form of Phoenician language.
Arch of Septimus Severus in the Roman province Leptis Magna in Libya, where Severus was born Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Breasted Hall, The Oriental Institute 1155 E 58th Street Chicago IL 60637 How did ancient Romans understand other peoples, especially Africans? This talk surveys the evidence of Roman literture, inscriptions and especially works of art, including unpublished material from current excavations. Dr. Bell investigates the creative forms of artistic expression that Africans inspired across the empire, and suggests some possible motives for their creation.
Voyage to West Africa of 5,000 -30,000 Cartheginians 60 Ships, Hanno the Navigator and King of Carthage
(at bottom Hanno's own account of his voyage)
Hanno the Navigator (also known as Hanno II of Carthage) was a Carthaginian explorer c. 500 BC, best known for his naval exploration of the African coast. As Hanno II, he held the throne as nominal king of Carthage from 480 until 440 BC — although by his reign, it was already in the process of starting to become more of a republic in practical terms. The lunar crater Hanno is named after him. This Hanno is called the Navigator to distinguish him from a number of other Carthaginians with this name. The voyage of Hanno is ascribed to various dates; current thinking is that it was in the fifth century BC. The number of thirty thousand is suspect: the ships would be very crowded. J.G. Demerliac & J. Meirat, Hannon et l' Empire Punique (1983 Paris, pp.64-67) suggest five thousand.
A number of modern scholars have commented upon Hanno's voyage. In many cases, the analysis has been to refine information and interpretation of the original account. William Smith points out that the complement of personnel totalled 30,000, and that the core mission included the intent to found Carthaginian (or in the older parlance Libyophoenician) towns.
Harden states there is general consensus that the expedition reached at least as far as Senegal.[9] There seems to be some agreement that he could have reached Gambia. However, Harden mentions lack of agreement as to precisely where to locate the farthest limit of Hanno's explorations: Sierra Leone, Cameroon, Gabon. He notes the description of Mount Cameroon, a 4,040-metre (13,250 ft) volcano, more closely matches Hanno's description than Guinea's 890-metre (2,920 ft) Mount Kakulima. Warmington prefers Mount Kakulima, considering Mount Cameroon too distant
As Warmington states,[2] Carthage dispatched Hanno at the head of a fleet of sixty ships to explore and colonize the northwestern coast of Africa. He sailed through the straits of Gibraltar, founded or repopulated seven colonies along the African coast of what is now Morocco, and explored significantly farther along the Atlantic coast of the continent. Hogan cites the visit of Hanno to Mogador, where the Phoenicians established an important dye-manufacturing plant using a marine gastropod found in the local Atlantic Ocean waters.[3] Hanno encountered various indigenous peoples on his journey and met with a variety of welcomes.
The eighteen lines of Hanno's artless account of his journey along the west coast of Africa are a unique document. It is the only known first-hand report on these regions before those of the Portuguese, which were written two thousand years later. It is the longest known text by a Phoenician author. Besides, Hanno has a fascinating story to tell: we visit a mysterious island, have to fight hostile natives, survive an erupting volcano, and encounter gorillas. Probably, Hanno made his voyage on the outer sea in the first half of the sixth century BCE. He had orders to found several colonies on the Moroccan coast; having done so, he established a trading post on a small island off the Mauritanian coast. After completing the original mission, he ventured further south, making a reconnaissance expedition along the African coast until he reached modern Gabon, where he was forced to return because he was running out of supplies. There is some reason to doubt the truth of the latter statement, because the Roman encyclopedist Pliny the Elder says that Hanno circumnavigated Africa and reached the borders of Arabia (below).
At the moment, there are only two copies, dating back to the ninth and the fourteenth centuries. The first of these manuscripts is known as the Palatinus Graecus 398 and can be studied in the University Library of Heidelberg. The other text is the Vatopedinus 655; parts of it are in the British Museum in London and in the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris.
Below is the account of Hanno, king of Carthage, about his voyage to the Libyan lands beyond the Pillars of Herakles, which he also set up in the shrine of Kronos.Hanno's remark that his translators were unable to speak with the native population suggests that they had entered the regions where Kru languages were spoken, in modern Sierra Leone.
(Libya is the Greek name for Africa Libyphoenicians are the Phoenicians living in Africa.)
The Carthaginians ordered Hanno to sail out of the Pillars of Herakles and found a number of Libyphoenician cities. He set sail with sixty fifty-oared ships, about thirty thousand men and women, food and other equipment.
After sailing beyond the Pillars for two days, we founded our first city, called Thymiaterion. Below it was a large plain.
Sailing westward from there, we arrived at Soloeis, a Libyan promontory, covered with trees.
Here we dedicated a temple to Poseidon. Sailing to the east for half a day, we reached a lake. It was not far from the sea, and was covered with many long reeds, from which elephants and other wild animals were eating
After our visit to the lake, we sailed on for one day. By the sea, we founded cities, called Karikon Teichos, Gytte, Akra, Melitta and Arambys
Continuing our voyage from there, we reached the Lixos, a large river flowing from Libya. The Lixites, a nomadic tribe, were pasturing their cattle beside it. We remained with them for some time and became friends.Beyond them, hostile Ethiopians occupied a land full of wild animals. It was surrounded by the great mountains from which the Lixos flows down. According to the Lixites, strange people dwell among these mountains: cave men who run faster than horses.
When we had got interpreters from the Lixites, we sailed along the desert shore for two days to the south. After sailing eastward for one day, we found in the recess of a bay a small island which had a circumference of five stades. We left settlers there and called it Kerne. We calculated from the journey that this island lay opposite Carthage, for the time sailing from Carthage to the Pillars and from there to Kerne was the same.
Sailing from there, we crossed a river called Chretes, and reached a bay, which contained three islands, bigger than Kerne. After a day's sail from here, we arrived at the end of the bay, which was overhung by some very great mountains, crowded with savages clad in animals' skins. By throwing stones, they prevented us from disembarking and drove us away.
Leaving from there, we arrived at another large, broad river teeming with crocodiles and hippopotamuses. Returning from there, we went back to Kerne. From there we we sailed to the south for twelve days. We remained close to the coast, which was entirely inhabited by Ethiopians, who fled from us when we approached. Even to our Lixites, their language was unintelligible.
On the last day, we anchored by some big mountains. They were covered with trees whose wood was aromatic and colorful.
Sailing around the mountains for two days, we came to an immense expanse of sea beyond which, on the landward side, was a plain. During the night we observed big and small fires everywhere flaming up at intervals.
Taking on water there, we continued for five days along the coast, until we reached a great bay which according to our translators was the Horn of the West. There was a large island in it, and in it a lagoon [which was salt] like the sea, and on it another island. Here we disembarked. In daytime, we could see nothing but the forest, but during the night, we noticed many fires alight and heard the sound of flutes, the beating of cymbals and tom-toms, and the shouts of a multitude. We grew afraid and our diviners advised us to leave this island.
Quickly, we sailed away, passing along a fiery coast full of incense. Large torrents of fire emptied into the sea, and the land was inaccessible because of the heat.
Quickly and in fear, we sailed away from that place. Sailing on for four days, we saw the coast by night full of flames. In the middle was a big flame, taller than the others and apparently rising to the stars. By day, this turned out to be a very high mountain, which was called Chariot of the Gods.
Sailing thence along the torrents of fire, we arrived after three days at a bay called Horn of the South
In this gulf was an island, resembling the first, with a lagoon, within which was another island, full of savages. Most of them were women with hairy bodies, whom our interpreters called 'gorillas'. Although we chased them, we could not catch any males: they all escaped, being good climbers who defended themselves with stones. However, we caught three women, who refused to follow those who carried them off, biting and clawing them. So we killed and flayed them and brought their skins back to Carthage. For we did not sail any further, because our provisions were running short
At the below webiste on the right column is commentary on the above text, about what old places names mentioned correspond to West African place names we know today:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
^^^^ can you identify these two sculptures?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: @the Lioness
Besides the fact I was posting Libyan images here five years before you began posting to ES (many of which you reposted) there are several things you say I could comment on (again like for the 999th time) so instead I'll just ask this:
If Severus' mother was Italian (not merely a Roman citizen) then why did Severus speak with so heavy an accent that he was made fun of and why his embarrassed for his sister who spoke it not at all?
No mama lashon in the home?
He spoke Latin and Greek with a Punic accent which is a later form of Phoenician language.
. Don't get cute explaining Punic is Phoenician to me. Who do you think you're talking to? No way you'll make points with newbies at my expense.
So Septimius got his Punic from growing up in the household of an Italian mother, right, while his sister learned no Latin from their Italian mommy when she was growing up. You thought you'd worm your way out of that one? Distracting non-sequitors don't cut it.
Another point you tried to slink away from is a - vacant post-Gafsian Maghreb b - inhabited post-Gafsian Maghreb which one? You know it can't be both.
Other ignorant statements that railroad your attempt to play "forum master" and "credible scholar" -- when actually the stuff you post that mostly makes sense is mainly plagiarized -- to newbies who don't know your history
* Carthage is not distinct from Phoenicia * Angus McBrides total fantasy Tichitt Phoenicia trade * playing ignorant of Gafsian Neolithic Tradition (circa -5300 to -2900) after the Gafsian ended (circa -6000) even though submitting a c -8000 to -2700 range for entire Gafsian here * eastern Libyans are one predominant ancient Maghreb ethny * Septimius Severus' was a Phoenician Italian hybrid
Although it's not a standard to use e instead of i in spelling ancient Mauretania it's an old suggestion DJ made here in the More proof of "black" Moors thread.
Got to hand it to you though, you keep interest in ES alive where others fell by the wayside and occasionally come up with good **** .
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Don't get cute explaining Punic is Phoenician to me. Who do you think you're talking to? No way you'll make points with newbies at my expense.
So Septimius got his Punic from growing up in the household of an Italian mother, right, while his sister learned no Latin from their Italian mommy when she was growing up. You thought you'd worm your way out of that one? Distracting non-sequitors don't cut it.
It's not clear what your claim is on Severus' accent. He was born in a Roman province in Libya that had been Phoenician. His mother was Italian. He spoke Punic and therefore had a Punic accent when he later learned Latin and Greek. These are thought to be facts as per historians. If they are incorrect then you need to put forward an alternate conspiracy theory about his accent and ancestry.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Another point you tried to slink away from is a - vacant post-Gafsian Maghreb b - inhabited post-Gafsian Maghreb which one? You know it can't be both.
^^^"All or nothing" mentality
there you go throwing in the obscure terms "post-Gafsain" I don't know if anybody every used that before. To the people I'm going to guess great sage intellectual prophet means post wet period Sahara. As I said before there was a long stretch over 1000 years of no eveidence of human habiation in the Maghreb. They might find some in the future. Long haired Nomadic tribes are mentioned by the Greeks but Sea people and other foreigners had been entering the region hundreds of years before Herodotus. Were the nomads also mixed with descendants or earlier deep rooted indigenous Africans? I don't know, there is no anthropolgical evidence yet. But there is evidence for earlier green period settlements that came to an end over 1000 years before the Geeks were talking about Libyan tribes. We can go into West and other parts of African and find the deep roots yeah I said geeks, the ancient geeks
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Other ignorant statements that railroad your attempt to play "forum master" and "credible scholar" -- when actually the stuff you post that mostly makes sense is mainly plagiarized -- to newbies who don't know your history
* Carthage is not distinct from Phoenicia
if you mean Carthage had no relation to Phoenica you are misleading the people
Most scholariship is plagerist ideas, primary sources reworded. However Mike does "innovate"
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Other ignorant statements
* Angus McBrides total fantasy Tichitt Phoenicia trade
please follow the thead, Son of Ra introduced that picture, it's his fault, my post remark was
"The illustration portays Phoenicians traders trading with Mandé merchants of the Pre-Imperial Mali in the 10th c I'm not sure that happened, would need to see another source verifying it."
Where were you when he first posted that?
please explain about the total fantasy, I don't know much about it. I suppose there are timeline issue ?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Other ignorant statements
* playing ignorant of Gafsian Neolithic Tradition (circa -5300 to -2900) after the Gafsian ended (circa -6000) even though submitting a c -8000 to -2700 range for entire Gafsian
no more egghead terminology please, nobody in the forum is using "Gafsian" thats a gaffe
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Other ignorant statements
here * eastern Libyans are one predominant ancient Maghreb ethny
follow the thread my posted remark was:
"Heodotus described two main regions of Libyans and this breaks down further into tribes"
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Other ignorant statements
* Septimius Severus' was a Phoenician Italian hybrid
Severus came from a wealthy, distinguished family of equestrian rank. He was of Italian Roman ancestry on his mother's side
see Birley, Anthony R. (1999) [1971]. Septimius Severus: The African Emperor.
Tell us great sage, your evidence that Severus mother was not Italian
Here is the detail of the Tondo you mentioned>
Septimus Severus (aka Raw Dogg)
^^ tell us your alternative theory about how this was actually a deep rooted indignenous African maternally and paternally
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Got to hand it to you though, you keep interest in ES alive where others fell by the wayside and occasionally come up with good shit
in the building
2013>2014
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
As far as I can make things out Carthage's people over time became more of African ancestry than Levantine and identified themselves strictly as Carthaginian by cultural ethnic identity but not Canaani.
As an example, self identified Carthaginian Severus his tondo shows different phenotypes for himself and his Syrian (Syria => Ssur => Tyre) wife.
^^Here is the Tondo>
[replaced by al~Takruri
Berlin, Antikensammlung, inv. nr. 31329. Photograph: Ursula Kampmann.
]
. . . .
You can disregard anything I said but you still have to have stronger proof than brown skin to prove that Carthage was primarily comprised of deep rooted indigenous North Africans.
Build a straw man knock it down. Absolutely nothing I ever said or anything to do with anything I ever said.
Now if I call you a disengenious photo spammin' twit don't run to Sammy again and have him wipe what you don't like the way you did last month behind me puttin' fire up under yr ass in the Who These People and the Kefti threads. Ya hear?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
So Septimius got his Punic from growing up in the household of an Italian mother, right, while his sister learned no Latin from their Italian mommy when she was growing up. You thought you'd worm your way out of that one? Distracting non-sequitors don't cut it.
. . . .
His mother was Italian. He spoke Punic and therefore had a Punic accent when he later learned Latin and Greek. These are thought to be facts as per historians. . . . .
So where's your primary documental evidence from the Latin Roman authors that his moms was Italian not just a Roman citizen?
Use a little logic. If he was raised by a 'Tally mommi he would not have a nearly unintelligible accent that Romans made fun of when he spoke Latin would he?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Another point you tried to slink away from is a - vacant post-Gafsian Maghreb b - inhabited post-Gafsian Maghreb which one? You know it can't be both.
^^^"All or nothing" mentality
Yes, outlining your all or nothing submentality
Direct quote
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
After North African Capsian culture there is 1-2000 year gap of no evidence of human habitation settlements in the Maghreb Possibly there were some nomads around. The Capsians were the last hunter gatherer culture about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE.
Fact is, you know bupkis about the Gafsian.
Compare what you wrote yesterday to what you wrote in July
Proof positive you don't know what you talkin bout just frontin frauds as you go along with newbies getting sucked in by your one day this next day that bullshit.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
The Eastern Libyans have nothing I mean nothing to do with the Maghreb proper (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia). They were no far west than Cyrenaica in eastern Libya per AE records.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
As I said before there was a long stretch over 1000 years of no eveidence of human habiation in the Maghreb. They might find some in the future. Long haired Nomadic tribes are mentioned by the Greeks but Sea people and other foreigners had been entering the region hundreds of years before Herodotus.
Sea Peoples in the Maghreb????????????????????? Get tha fuh outta here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
[an]Other ignorant statement[] * Carthage is not distinct from Phoenicia
if you mean Carthage had no relation to Phoenica you are misleading the people
Of course Carthage is distinct from Phoenicia.
Carthage is NE Tunisia in Africa Minor at the south central Mediterranean.
Phoenicia is Canaan in the Levant at far east Mediterranean.
Carthage was founded by Phoenicians (Canaanites -- K*na`ani per their own nomenclature). Over time Carthage's colonists fused with the native Imazighen to birth the unique Punic civilization.
The Punics became independent of Canaan even conquering other subservient Canaanite colonies.
Carthaginians were less Phoenician than Canadians, Americans, South Africans, or Australians are English.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Other ignorant statements
* Angus McBrides total fantasy Tichitt Phoenicia trade
please follow the thead, Son of Ra introduced that picture, it's his fault, my post remark was
"The illustration portays Phoenicians traders trading with Mandé merchants of the Pre-Imperial Mali in the 10th c I'm not sure that happened, would need to see another source verifying it."
Where were you when he first posted that?
please explain about the total fantasy, I don't know much about it. I suppose there are timeline issue ?
My bad. You questioned the illo. Good for you! The architecture, the clothing, the date for either Phoenicians or the "Dhari," but more than anything the idea the sea going Phoenicians went all the way some 700 kilos inland to do personal trade.
If anything trade was going on between the "Dhari" and the Garamante but that was like around -300, long after Phoenicia had exited the stage.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Gafsian is more correct than Capsian. The type site is at Gafsa not Capsa.
It's a matter of self-determinative agency in applying terminology more appropriate to Africa than to Euros.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Carthage was founded by Phoenicians (Canaanites -- K*na`ani per their own nomenclature). Over time Carthage's colonists fused with the native Imazighen to birth the unique Punic civilization.\
Do we actually know whether the people living in the Carthage area before the Phoenicians were actually Berbers? How do we know they weren't, say, related to Mandinkas or some other Niger-Congo West African people?
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Truthcentric
You believe Hannibal was African?
Don't think there's hard evidence either way, but I do have another recent drawing of him that portrays him as more African:
And an earlier, more dynamic picture of him brandishing his battle ax: "I shall use fire and steel to arrest the destiny of Rome!"
Agreed...We really dont know if Hannibal was African or non African since there's no portraits of him, physical remains or recorded depictions of him...
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: So where's your primary documental evidence from the Latin Roman authors that his moms was Italian not just a Roman citizen?
Use a little logic. If he was raised by a 'Tally mommi he would not have a nearly unintelligible accent that Romans made fun of when he spoke Latin would he?
Don't just nitpick everything I say without puting forward something for the people to grasp as an alternative. I haven't read the primary sources on this accent thing. There is an element of logic to what you are saying but you have said nothing about if his moms also had an accent, what she had an accent and what type of accent she had.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Gafsian is more correct than Capsian. The type site is at Gafsa not Capsa.
It's a matter of self-determinative agency in applying terminology more appropriate to Africa than to Euros.
Authors of modern books on North Africa, professional anthropologists working today, as far as I know are not using this term. So therefore when people who come to Egyptsearch to learn stuff and hear you use all these obscure terms you think are more proper dont know what you are talking about and might lose interest
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Build a straw man knock it down. Absolutely nothing I ever said or anything to do with anything I ever said.
Now if I call you a disengenious photo spammin' twit don't run to Sammy again and have him wipe what you don't like the way you did last month behind me puttin' fire up under yr ass in the Who These People and the Kefti threads. Ya hear? [/QB]
^^^ egocentic theory
I complained to ausar in a pm about the deletion, he didn't know who did it
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Another point you tried to slink away from is a - vacant post-Gafsian Maghreb b - inhabited post-Gafsian Maghreb which one? You know it can't be both.
^^^"All or nothing" mentality
Yes, outlining your all or nothing submentality
Direct quote
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
After North African Capsian culture there is 1-2000 year gap of no evidence of human habitation settlements in the Maghreb Possibly there were some nomads around. The Capsians were the last hunter gatherer culture about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE.
Fact is, you know bupkis about the Gafsian.
Compare what you wrote yesterday to what you wrote in July
Proof positive you don't know what you talkin bout just frontin frauds as you go along with newbies getting sucked in by your one day this next day that bullshit.
as I said ther are various sources with differnt dates. Instead of soley nit picking put forward a date. You don't want't to because my point stiil stands.
If you look at 8000 bc – 2,700 BC. it fits within 10,000 to 6,000 BCE.
Different sources define these cultures differently and there are dating issues.
give dates for the people
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
[an]Other ignorant statement[] * Carthage is not distinct from Phoenicia
if you mean Carthage had no relation to Phoenica you are misleading the people
Of course Carthage is distinct from Phoenicia....
Carthage was founded by Phoenicians
"distinct" could mean anything, semantics. America is distinct from Britain Alaska is distinct from Peru France is distiinct from Belgium
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
over time Carthage's colonists fused with the native Imazighen to birth the unique Punic civilization.
Carthaginians were less Phoenician than Canadians, Americans, South Africans, or Australians are English.
How do you know that, Carthaginians were less Phoenician than Canadians, Americans, South Africans, or Australians are English?
Even people who argue a healthy indigenous African input would not go that far.
The Sahara: A Cultural History By Eamonn Gearon
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri
^^^ you posted this. Are you convinced these people were fully indigenous deep rooted Africans? I suppose it's possible but it seems to be hard to know for sure
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
We do have this coin from Italy dating to 208-207 BC, which is within Hannibal's lifetime. Could it show a contemporary's portrait of him?
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
Um...Yeah you can clearly see the paint has faded off.
@Truthcentric
Some people say that can be a Nubian. Also you said maybe the Carthaginians could have been related to Niger Congo people. Well the people of Tichitt Walata were Sonnike people who are infact Niger Congo type people and those same people traded with the Carthaginians as seen in the OP.
Also does any have even more sources about trade between Carthaginians and West Africans or just their relations?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: We do have this coin from Italy dating to 208-207 BC, which is within Hannibal's lifetime. Could it show a contemporary's portrait of him?
why of the Carthegian coins that have people and elephants on them would that one in particular be Hannibal?
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
^^^Interesting.
quote: The sandstone escarpment of the Dhar Tichitt in South-Central Mauritania was inhabited by Neolithic agropastoral communities for approximately one and half millennium during the Late Holocene, from ca. 4000 to 2300 BP. The absence of prior evidence of human settlement points to the influx of mobile herders moving away from the “drying” Sahara towards more humid lower latitudes.
quote: Legend holds that Carthage was founded around 825 BC by Queen Dido who had fled from the city of Tyre to escape her murderous brother Pygmalion. Archaeological evidence confirms that Phoenician traders from Tyre founded the city of Qart-Ḥadašt—or "New City," as Carthage was known in its native language—in the second half of the ninth century BC.
Good post Troll Patrol and yeah I've seen that thread by Jari. Tichit Walata was very old, yet very advanced for its time.
And man Carthage must have been amazing. Just look at this pic. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: reliable information on ancient Carthaginian architecture proved surprisingly hard to come by, especially since the Romans utterly destroyed the original city before rebuilding it in their own style.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
So how do we know they weren't Italian? Anything goes in make believe or what if.
GOOGLE the etymology of Africa thread or read Dana's article in Golden Age o/t Moor.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Carthage was founded by Phoenicians (Canaanites -- K*na`ani per their own nomenclature). Over time Carthage's colonists fused with the native Imazighen to birth the unique Punic civilization.\
Do we actually know whether the people living in the Carthage area before the Phoenicians were actually Berbers? How do we know they weren't, say, related to Mandinkas or some other Niger-Congo West African people?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Guess we should know when moms took a **** too eh
You got no proof sh was 'Tally and if 'Tally naturally a 'Tally accent, duh.
I think most people of African descent appreciate the alternate African names instead of what colonialist used. if not then 2 2 bad.
No hiatus from Maghreb after Gafsian there was both Med Neolithic and Gafsian Neolithic tradition but u no know bout that thus ignorant assertion not to mention u gave widely diff Gafsian end dates this month vs july. now that's a gaffe
Of course the temehu were deep rooted African with shallow nonAfrican aDNA like I've been sayin' all these years.
U r so vapid
Just a waste of time w/u. I've done enough u do t/rest. But this time do yr homework before opening yr flytrap
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: So where's your primary documental evidence from the Latin Roman authors that his moms was Italian not just a Roman citizen?
Use a little logic. If he was raised by a 'Tally mommi he would not have a nearly unintelligible accent that Romans made fun of when he spoke Latin would he?
Don't just nitpick everything I say without puting forward something for the people to grasp as an alternative. I haven't read the primary sources on this accent thing. There is an element of logic to what you are saying but you have said nothing about if his moms also had an accent, what she had an accent and what type of accent she had.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Gafsian is more correct than Capsian. The type site is at Gafsa not Capsa.
It's a matter of self-determinative agency in applying terminology more appropriate to Africa than to Euros.
Authors of modern books on North Africa, professional anthropologists working today, as far as I know are not using this term. So therefore when people who come to Egyptsearch to learn stuff and hear you use all these obscure terms you think are more proper dont know what you are talking about and might lose interest
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Build a straw man knock it down. Absolutely nothing I ever said or anything to do with anything I ever said.
Now if I call you a disengenious photo spammin' twit don't run to Sammy again and have him wipe what you don't like the way you did last month behind me puttin' fire up under yr ass in the Who These People and the Kefti threads. Ya hear?
^^^ egocentic theory
I complained to ausar in a pm about the deletion, he didn't know who did it
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Another point you tried to slink away from is a - vacant post-Gafsian Maghreb b - inhabited post-Gafsian Maghreb which one? You know it can't be both.
^^^"All or nothing" mentality
Yes, outlining your all or nothing submentality
Direct quote
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
After North African Capsian culture there is 1-2000 year gap of no evidence of human habitation settlements in the Maghreb Possibly there were some nomads around. The Capsians were the last hunter gatherer culture about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE.
Fact is, you know bupkis about the Gafsian.
Compare what you wrote yesterday to what you wrote in July
Proof positive you don't know what you talkin bout just frontin frauds as you go along with newbies getting sucked in by your one day this next day that bullshit.
as I said ther are various sources with differnt dates. Instead of soley nit picking put forward a date. You don't want't to because my point stiil stands.
If you look at 8000 bc – 2,700 BC. it fits within 10,000 to 6,000 BCE.
Different sources define these cultures differently and there are dating issues.
give dates for the people
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
[an]Other ignorant statement[] * Carthage is not distinct from Phoenicia
if you mean Carthage had no relation to Phoenica you are misleading the people
Of course Carthage is distinct from Phoenicia....
Carthage was founded by Phoenicians
"distinct" could mean anything, semantics. America is distinct from Britain Alaska is distinct from Peru France is distiinct from Belgium
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
over time Carthage's colonists fused with the native Imazighen to birth the unique Punic civilization.
Carthaginians were less Phoenician than Canadians, Americans, South Africans, or Australians are English.
How do you know that, Carthaginians were less Phoenician than Canadians, Americans, South Africans, or Australians are English?
Even people who argue a healthy indigenous African input would not go that far.
The Sahara: A Cultural History By Eamonn Gearon
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri
^^^ you posted this. Are you convinced these people were fully indigenous deep rooted Africans? I suppose it's possible but it seems to be hard to know for sure [/QB]
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Pure speculation that a small value nonCarthaginian coin is Hannibal but valuable Carthaginian currency o/t time doesn't depict Hannibal.
And that thing about why a mahout obverse the elephant? Why a Indian obverse the buffalo on old USA nickels?
Plenty of old black Hannibal threads this has been beat to death go GOOGLE don't wanna keep goin in circles want sumpin new
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: We do have this coin from Italy dating to 208-207 BC, which is within Hannibal's lifetime. Could it show a contemporary's portrait of him?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
C'mon this faded paint complexion but nowhere else is weak weak weak. Everbody quit actin' like there were no lite brite folk in NA of course there were
Whoever says they're Nubian can't read hieroglyphics and hasn't seen the whole scene
its good to revisit themes but damn aint nuthin wrong with GOOGLing the archive once in a while
ES been here since 2004 no interest in what was said before
no continuity from generation to generation, a big problem and why the youth are not grounded
always starting from square 1 instead of building on what was handed down
Give it 2 d y man he builds up from generation to generation
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Um...Yeah you can clearly see the paint has faded off.
@Truthcentric
Some people say that can be a Nubian. Also you said maybe the Carthaginians could have been related to Niger Congo people. Well the people of Tichitt Walata were Sonnike people who are infact Niger Congo type people and those same people traded with the Carthaginians as seen in the OP.
Also does any have even more sources about trade between Carthaginians and West Africans or just their relations?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
AGAIN
That coin ain't Carthaginian look it up on earlier Hannibal ES threads or a numismatic site
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: We do have this coin from Italy dating to 208-207 BC, which is within Hannibal's lifetime. Could it show a contemporary's portrait of him?
why of the Carthegian coins that have people and elephants on them would that one in particular be Hannibal?
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Tukuler
What??? It seems you can't read or grasp the argument at hand.
1. I said the coins could be of a Nubian people, because Nubians were known for supplying Carthage with their elephants, so I heard. And I also heard those coins could be of a Nubian person. Had nothing to do with hieroglyphics. Truthcentric was the one that brought up the coins. 2. I said the paint was faded...Well because it is and you can clearly see some of the darker colors on it. Not only that, I said it because some people would use that painting as proof of pale Skin Caucasoid roaming Africa, which is not rare because Eurocentrics always love to post faded paintings as representatives of pale skin people being in Africa. Most paintings I've seen on the Libyans, they were brown skinned no different from the Ancient Egyptians.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Carthage was founded by Phoenicians (Canaanites -- K*na`ani per their own nomenclature). Over time Carthage's colonists fused with the native Imazighen to birth the unique Punic civilization.\
Do we actually know whether the people living in the Carthage area before the Phoenicians were actually Berbers? How do we know they weren't, say, related to Mandinkas or some other Niger-Congo West African people?
WHAT BONES CAN TELL: BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB:
quote: The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
Turning to what can be learned about cultural practices and disease, the individuals from Taforalt, the largest sample by far, display little evidence of trauma, though they do suggest a high incidence of infant mortality, with evidence for dental caries, arthritis, and rheumatism among other degenerative conditions. Interestingly, Taforalt also provides one of the oldest known instances of the practice of trepanation, the surgical removal of a portion of the cranium; the patient evidently survived for some time, as there are signs of bone regrowth in the affected area. Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000).
--Lawrence Barham The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)
quote: Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb
Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Table 3. Nine human populations sampled for craniometric analysis ranging in age from the Late Pleistocene (ca. 80,000 BP, Aterian) to the mid-Holocene (ca. 4000 BP) and in geographic distribution across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara [18], [19], [26], [27], [54]. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.t003
quote:The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb.
quote:These early occupants abandon the area under arid conditions and, when humid conditions return ~4600 B.C.E., are replaced by a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including animal bone and ivory ornaments.
quote: Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
quote:Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.
--(doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.g006)
quote:Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb (see cluster in Figure 6). The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).
quote: Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.
--Paul C. Sereno et al.
Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
At the moment, there are only two copies, dating back to the ninth and the fourteenth centuries. The first of these manuscripts is known as the Palatinus Graecus 398 and can be studied in the University Library of Heidelberg. The other text is the Vatopedinus 655; parts of it are in the British Museum in London and in the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris.
[...]
At the below webiste on the right column is commentary on the above text, about what old places names mentioned correspond to West African place names we know today:
Also is your PM box full? Because I wanna PM you something.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Troll Patrol
Thanks.
Also is your PM box full? Because I wanna PM you something.
It's cleaned up.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^ typical Troll Patrol answer. Son Ra asks him what is the manuscript about and Troll Patrol's answer is "yes lioness mentioned it"
Is that an answer to the question?
What if someboy doesn't feel like reading 10 pages you post because they don't know what the 10 pages are supposed to be about.
I supposeldy posted this. If I did I don't even remember what it was about
Son of Ra what is it about I forgot ?
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^ typical Troll Patrol answer. Son Ra asks him what is the manuscript about and Troll Patrol's answer is "yes lioness mentioned it"
Is that an answer to the question?
What if someboy doesn't feel like reading 10 pages you post because they don't know what the 10 pages are supposed to be about.
I supposeldy posted this. If I did I don't even remember what it was about
Son of Ra what is it about I forgot ?
You should be thankful to me, on your knees. But instead? SMH
I expect geisha manners from you.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I admit I was rushed when posting earlier today. Looked like you were talking about the Tjemehu from Ramses III tomb KV11, if not accept my apology.
It doesn't matter what other depictions show the Tamehu painted in KV11 are not dark. Also other TMHHW of the Book of Gates scene 30 are lite brite. See them in Merneptah KV8 and in Seti KV17.
If I give these links will you click them to learn more?
Tjehenu the earliest known Libyans to the AE were uniformily painted dark. Tjemehu otoh varied in complexion. Also Temehu in New Kingdom times was apparently genetic for Libyan and could include Libu/Rebu, Meshwesh, and others.
IMO it's piss poor methodology to refuse to see what's plainly right in front of your eyes because it seems to support cauca-whatever presence in Africa.
We don't need that kind of African studies, it'd be as false and groundless as the works of the Eurocentric Africanists you rail against.
Maybe you and certain others need a feel good history but I'd rather have it as close to what it was as we can reconstruct it.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Tukuler
What??? It seems you can't read or grasp the argument at hand.
1. I said the coins could be of a Nubian people, because Nubians were known for supplying Carthage with their elephants, so I heard. And I also heard those coins could be of a Nubian person. Had nothing to do with hieroglyphics. Truthcentric was the one that brought up the coins. 2. I said the paint was faded...Well because it is and you can clearly see some of the darker colors on it. Not only that, I said it because some people would use that painting as proof of pale Skin Caucasoid roaming Africa, which is not rare because Eurocentrics always love to post faded paintings as representatives of pale skin people being in Africa. Most paintings I've seen on the Libyans, they were brown skinned no different from the Ancient Egyptians.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
also saying that some Libyans were dark doesn't prove that the darker Libyans in Egyptian art were indigenous Africans.
They may have been they may not have been.
The man above is an example of a dark person who is not necessrily primarily of African ancestry, So saying "the paints faded" doesn't apply
The early history of the berbers is a question mark
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
also saying that some Libyans were dark doesn't prove that the darker Libyans in Egyptian art were indigenous Africans.
They may have been they may not have been.
The man above is an example of a dark person who is not necessrily primarily of African ancestry, So saying "the paints faded" doesn't apply
The early history of the berbers is a question mark
quote: The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region.
--Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2012 Feb;147(2):280-92. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21645. Epub 2011 Dec 20.
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.
Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.
quote: Origin & Etymology of Garama:
It is far from sure to ascertain the etymology of the name Garama or Garamantes, but we do have a few suggestions to explore. As it is often the case, the Greeks preserved a considerable amount of Libyan history in their borrowed mythology, which Roberts Graves (in his Greek Myths) rightly compares to corrupted polit.
Origin & Etymology of Garama:
It is far from sure to ascertain the etymology of the name Garama or Garamantes, but we do have a few suggestions to explore. As it is often the case, the Greeks preserved a considerable amount of Libyan history in their borrowed mythology, which Roberts Graves (in his Greek Myths) rightly compares to corrupted political cartoons; and therefore one can wade through its chapters in search of forgotten clues. The Greeks knew of the Garamantes’ ancestor Garamas as ‘the first of men’, which is a reference to the antiquity of this legendary people. According to the Greek Olympian creation myth the Earth’s first children of semi-human form were the hundred-handed giants Briareus, Gyges and Cottus, but according to Robert Graves the Libyans claim that Garamas was born before the Hundred-handed Ones. Robert Graves further relates that the name Garamantes is derived from the words gara, man, and te, meaning ‘Gara’s state people’; where Gara is the Goddess Ker or Q’re who went on to become the Italian divinatory goddess Carmenta (‘Car the Wise’). He also points out that the Garamantian settlement of Amon was joined with the Northern Greek settlement of Dodona in a religious league which, according to Sir Flinders Petrie, may have originated as early as the third millennium BC. The Garamantes connection with Amon is further indicated by the Nasamones, whose ancestor Nasamon himself descended from the legendary Garamas, the ancestor of the Garamantes, who appeared in mythology as the Son of the Sun and who offered Mother Earth a sacrifice of the sweet acorn.
This obscure history was the source of confusion. Dr. M. S. Ayoub (Fezzan, p.19), in quoting Apolionius of Rhodes, relates a Greek legend which refers to Garama as the grandson of the Cretan King Minos, who was born on the shores of Lake Tritonis in Libya, and concludes that the Garamantes had been living on the shores between present-day Zuwarah in Libya and Gabes in Tunisia (p. 45), an area that includes the legendary Lake Tritonis, where Libyan Poseidon allegedly ruled Atlantis; in total agreement, Dr. Ayoub relates, with lbn Khaldun who stated that Germanah (Germa) was first settled by the Laguanten tribe, who also inhabited the coastal regions of Tripolitania; before he went on to add that they fled the coastal region and immigrated to Fezzan as a result of the Phoenicians' arrival. In support of his confused supposition Dr. Ayoub says: "On the mountain of Zenkekra in Germa, people are drawn with plumes on their heads which resembles drawings in Egyptian texts showing the maritime peoples." There is no doubt that the plume is a Libyan feature generally agreed on by most scholars and in fact the Egyptians themselves always represented Libyan gods and goddesses with plumes, as in the case of Libyan Amen, Libyan Ament and Libyan Shu, long before the arrival of the sea-people. Moreover there are a number of scholars who argue to the contrary - in that the Cretans themselves were a Libyan colony. It has been already stated that a Libyan settlement was expelled from their homes in the now called Egyptian Delta during the forced unification of Egypt, by Menas, and subsequently left for Crete between 4000 and 3000 BC, long way before the Minoan or Cretan civilisation was created. The same view was maintained by Robert Graves; by Elinor W. Gadon (The Once & Future Goddess); by Sir Arthur Evans (1901), the discoverer of the Cretan civilisation itself; and by Professor Flinders Petrie who pointed out that the similarity between certain Cretan characters and the prehistoric Libyan and Egyptian early forms of writing was not the work of coincidence.
make a point in YOUR OWN WORDS first like normal posters do and then post quotes after that
I could go into that same quote you out up and make four differnt conclusions from it
Also you post a lot of tha same charts and quotes all the time not just two or three times but 10 times. That wastes everybody's time.
For the amount of info you posts you should have a corresponding greater amont of threads of your own.
But you don't because you are a reactionary
You wont stick your neck out and make more thread
you wait for other people to
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ as usual
make a point in YOUR OWN WORDS first like normal posters do and then post quotes after that
I could go into that same quote you out up and make four differnt conclusions from it
As usually I debunk you with peer reviewed scholarship. And even a source directly from a popular Tuareg Facebook group.
You are a stupid, untraveled Appalachian.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ as usual
make a point in YOUR OWN WORDS first like normal posters do and then post quotes after that
I could go into that same quote you out up and make four differnt conclusions from it
As usually I debunk you with peer reviewed scholarship.
that's right usually you follow me around and dont make your own threads, real talk
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ as usual
make a point in YOUR OWN WORDS first like normal posters do and then post quotes after that
I could go into that same quote you out up and make four differnt conclusions from it
As usually I debunk you with peer reviewed scholarship.
that's right usually you follow me around and dont make your own threads, real talk
Let's get real here.
If people post in their own words, you'll dismiss them as untrue etc...
And at the same time you will C/P wiki pages, pseudo blogs. Etc...
You are a joke! A African American woman impostor. A liar, a deceiver! And it hurts you, every time when I destroy your so-called white supremacy. And in your delusional mind you think you really can fool peeps here. BIGOT!
quote: The Garamantian civilization flourished in modern Fezzan, Libya, between 900 BC and 500 AD, during which the aridification of the Sahara was well established. Study of the archaeological remains suggests a population successful at coping with a harsh environment of high and fluctuating temperatures and reduced water and food resources. This study explores the activity patterns of the Garamantes by means of cross-sectional geometric properties. Long bone diaphyseal shape and rigidity are compared between the Garamantes and populations from Egypt and Sudan, namely from the sites of Kerma, el-Badari, and Jebel Moya, to determine whether the Garamantian daily activities were more strenuous than those of other North African populations. Moreover, sexual dimorphism and bilateral asymmetry are assessed at an intra- and inter-population level. The inter-population comparisons showed the Garamantes not to be more robust than the comparative populations, suggesting that the daily Garamantian activities necessary for survival in the Sahara Desert did not generally impose greater loads than those of other North African populations. Sexual dimorphism and bilateral asymmetry in almost all geometric properties of the long limbs were comparatively low among the Garamantes. Only the lower limbs were significantly stronger among males than females, possibly due to higher levels of mobility associated with herding. The lack of systematic bilateral asymmetry in cross-sectional geometric properties may relate to the involvement of the population in bilaterally intensive activities or the lack of regular repetition of unilateral activities.
--Nikita E, Siew YY, Stock J, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.
Activity patterns in the Sahara Desert: an interpretation based on cross-sectional geometric properties.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2011 Nov;146(3):423-34. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21597. Epub 2011 Sep 27.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Here's another mask for ya, enjoy!
Fig. 204. Mask of a Negro. Mid 4th century BCE. Terracotta. H: 22.5 cm. London, British Museum.
Before anyone blames me for the caption it's directly from Snowden's chapter in Image of the Black in Western Art vol 1 the original edition not the new one
For other ancient Africa Minor blacks see Algerian mosaics. Three of the images there are from Europe, these blacks are most likely the closest Africans to Europe, i.e., "Libyans."
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I was just browsing Google image search for Carthaginian artifacts, and apparently they made masks with evidence for facial scars!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: [Let's get real here.
If people post in their own words, you'll dismiss them as untrue etc...
And at the same time you will C/P wiki pages, pseudo blogs. Etc...
You are a joke! A African American woman impostor. A liar, a deceiver! And it hurts you, every time when I destroy your so-called white supremacy. [/QB]
the proper way to do thinks is make a point in your own words and then if you feel it necessary to back that point with references. (Except if you are starting a new thread and post an article to be discussed)
If you wrote a book the entire thing would be a bibliography-realer talk
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: [Let's get real here.
If people post in their own words, you'll dismiss them as untrue etc...
And at the same time you will C/P wiki pages, pseudo blogs. Etc...
You are a joke! A African American woman impostor. A liar, a deceiver! And it hurts you, every time when I destroy your so-called white supremacy.
the proper way to do thinks is make a point in your own words and then if you feel it necessary to back that point with references. (Except if you are starting a new thread and post an article to be discussed)
If you wrote a book the entire thing would be a bibliography-realer talk [/QB]
Shut the hell up, pseudo, Wikipedia copy passing white supremacist Appalachian, African American woman impostor.
I have one goal only, and only one goal. That is destroying your white supremacy claims.
When I write a book it will be loaded with reference material. And direct fieldwork. Yes, indeed!
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I don't have a scanner and so can't post page 81 from J. A. Rogers' Sex and Race Vol. 1 but here's a sampling of like coinage.
Undescored text above by me for your analytic attention.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Was Hannibal black?
Most likely not in any appreciable sense. The coins with a black man on one side and an elephant on the other are not of Carthaginian mint and were very small change. This is one time I disagree with J. A. Rogers' research sources.
By Hannibaal's time Phoenician blood must have been very thin and the folk of Khart Haddas' land at it's founding, the Aurigha (sp) were a black people but art pieces of the Barca family do not bear features of the blacks in contemporaneous or later mosaics, http://thenile.phpbb-host.com/ftopic2316.php not even the features of the terra-cotta statuette of the god Baal currently in the Bardo Museum in Tunis which has wide nose, tightly curled hair and thick lips in contrast to the thin-featured sphinx attached to the arm of his throne.
Hannibaal could have been anything in between black and blond as were the north coastal Africans of his era but there's no solid evidence of exactly where in that spectrum he precisely fits.
Carthaginian coins representing Hannibal really just show the archetype of a hero. The portrait is nearly indistinguishable from Herakles or Alexander similarly found on Phoenician shekel coinage from Tyre.
Other coins with an elephant on one side and a face on the other are thought by some to show Hannibaal by others to only be mahouts. Some of the faces on these coins probably do in fact depict Punic blacks unless the mahouts were recruited from elsewhere in Africa where elephants served as war engines.
Anyway, as can be seen in the quotes ranging in time from -1000 to the 3rd century, the Greeks didn't class the Imazighen among peoples like themselves. They were viewed as the lightest in complexion of the dark peoples of the world. Even as late as the 8th century, an Arabic taxonomist still classes Imazighen alongside the darks and not among the whites. So, it is very unlikely Hannibal was white by either ancient or modern criteria.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
this is a Carthegianian coin Experts disagree on the identity of the portrait; many identifying it as the god Melquarth, others as Hannibal or his father. 13769. Silver half shekel, SNG Cop 383, choice EF, Carthage mint,
A silver double shekel minted by Hannibal's family around 230 B.C. The front depicts the Carthaginian god Melqart as Hercules and the reverse shows a war elephant.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Representation of a war elephant. It is the decoration of a Roman bed rest. Eyes and veins are inlaid with silver. Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^
The rhetorical posts above was to be expected. So predictable. SMH
Anyway, Tukuler do you have any information on the Serir Tibesti/Kufra Basin and Fezzan Basin/Serir Tibesti?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Right now I have very little my ext stg directory got trashed -- costs >$800 to maybe restore only parts of it
I m starting from scratch except for what I can salvage from ES TNV ESR
sorry
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Trying to find the thread where I mentioned Doc Ben in Blackman o/t Nile & His Family and Ampim's studies make no remark about Ramesses III's Libyans being dark in contrast to Finch saying they were.
Guess it disappeared with last month's wipe?
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Right now I have very little my ext stg directory got trashed -- costs >$800 to maybe restore only parts of it
I m starting from scratch except for what I can salvage from ES TNV ESR
sorry
My advice, get yourself a Server, with hotswap backup and private cloud station. A Synology for example.
A two bay is efficient enough.
A direct and cheap solution to your problem could be a: USB 2.0 IDE & SATA recovery.
quote: From these radiated a complex network of surface channels, some of which could be traced directly to settlement sites with Garamantian and Roman pottery, strikingly confirming the Garamantian date of the foggaras previously postulated on the basis of a much broader spatial association with ancient settlements.
[...]
To this end, we have conducted survey in two main zones, examining in detail the escarp- ment between the Royal Cemetery and Zinkekr ̄a, a linear distance of 4.5 km, along which we have logged >5,500 burials, and on the west side of the T ̄aqallit promontory where we have recorded 4,000 burials in a sector of c. 4 km length.
--David Mattingly, Nadia Khalaf et al.
Libyan Studies 42 (2011)
Excavations and Survey of the so-called Garamantian Royal Cemetery (GSC030−031)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
why not use a cloud free from internet provider?
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Tukuler
Yes I was talking about the Tjemehu IIRC they were depicted as no different from the Ancient Egyptians. Correct me if I am wrong.
And I already seen the thread in the first link. And what do you mean feel good history??? Are you implying that to me?
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
Shout out goes to anansi from Egyptsearch reloaded.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Tukuler
Yes I was talking about the Tjemehu IIRC they were depicted as no different from the Ancient Egyptians. Correct me if I am wrong.
And I already seen the thread in the first link. And what do you mean feel good history??? Are you implying that to me?
If I'm not mistaken, the above dressed as Egyptians are Egyptians including govenors of Dakhla and or Kharga and oasis, Libyan regions the Egyptians had taken control of.
Maybe somebody can take a crack at this>
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^ it looks a bit like proto-Tifinagh. And considering the presence of the Garamantes this is likely. It's also precisely what I have cited earlier on in the; "Origin & Etymology of Garama".
quote: The Tuareg (also Twareg or Touareg, Berber: Imuhagh, besides regional ethnyms) are a Berber nomadic pastoralist people. They are the principal inhabitants of the Saharan interior of North Africa.[2][3] They call themselves variously Kel Tamasheq or Kel Tamajaq ("Speakers of Tamasheq"), Imuhagh, Imazaghan or Imashaghen ("the Free people"), or Kel Tagelmust, i.e., "People of the Veil".[4] The name Tuareg was applied to them by early explorers and historians (since Leo Africanus).[citation needed]
The origin and meaning of the name Twareg has long been debated with various etymologies advanced, although it would appear that Twārəg is derived from the "broken plural" of Tārgi, a name whose former meaning was "inhabitant of Targa" (the Tuareg name of the Libyan region commonly known as Fezzan. Targa in Berber means "(drainage) channel", see Alojali et al. 2003: 656, s.v. "Targa").
If I read it correctly, it says something like: The lioness is a liar.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Tukuler
Yes I was talking about the Tjemehu IIRC they were depicted as no different from the Ancient Egyptians. Correct me if I am wrong.
And I already seen the thread in the first link. And what do you mean feel good history??? Are you implying that to me?
I on purpose did not include these in my initial posts earlier on, when talking about the Garamantes.
But, these are likely proto-Tuareg i.e. proto-Garamantes.
quote:The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade.
Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance.
--Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM. et al.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2012 Feb;147(2):280-92. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21645. Epub 2011 Dec 20.
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.
quote:The area around Gobero consists of Cretaceous sandstones that are likely to exhibit 87Sr/86Sr = 0.709–0.710, based on strontium isotope signatures from similar bedrock and archaeological human remains in Egypt and Libya [46], [47].
--Paul C. Sereno et al.
Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
Yes I was talking about the Tjemehu IIRC they were depicted as no different from the Ancient Egyptians. Correct me if I am wrong.
There were obvious differences in the depictions of Temehu as compared to AEs. In New Kingdom times Tamahu were pictured to represent the non-Egyptian west lands.
Here are some Tjehenu the earliest AE known Libyans whom about colour yes you are basically correct.
1st & 4th from the left are THHNW
All above images from Sahure except the solo profile from Narmer. This next Tjehenu is from Ramesses III.
We can see uniformity in Tjemehu across more than 1000 years, Long hair swept backwards with a tress or two tucked behind the ear only to fall upon the chest, two bandoliers crossing the chest, nudity only covered by a penis stache.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Tukuler
Yes I was talking about the Tjemehu IIRC they were depicted as no different from the Ancient Egyptians. Correct me if I am wrong.
And I already seen the thread in the first link. And what do you mean feel good history??? Are you implying that to me?
If I'm not mistaken, the above dressed as Egyptians are Egyptians including govenors of Dakhla and or Kharga and oasis, Libyan regions the Egyptians had taken control of.
Maybe somebody can take a crack at this>
Wrong...IIRC those are the 26th Libyan dynasty of Egypt. Jari posted them before.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Son of Ra I posted further background on the above paintings in a new thread
The tombs of Djed-Ankh-Amun-Iuf and his son Bannentiu BAHARIYA OASIS
Yes I was talking about the Tjemehu IIRC they were depicted as no different from the Ancient Egyptians. Correct me if I am wrong.
There were obvious differences in the depictions of Temehu as compared to AEs. In New Kingdom times Tamahu were pictured to represent the non-Egyptian west lands.
Here are some Tjehenu the earliest AE known Libyans whom about colour yes you are basically correct.
1st & 4th from the left are THHNW
All above images from Sahure except the solo profile from Narmer. This next Tjehenu is from Ramesses III.
We can see uniformity in Tjemehu across more than 1000 years, Long hair swept backwards with a tress or two tucked behind the ear only to fall upon the chest, two bandoliers crossing the chest, nudity only covered by a penis stache.
Good post.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
detail Obverse side of Narmer Palette
Immediately in front of Narmer is a person described as a priest or scribe, a "sandal-bearer" who is supposedly carrying the king' sandals. A pair of hieroglyphs appearing in front of him, which has been interpreted as being his name: Tshet. "master" To the right of this person are four standard bearers, holding aloft an animal skin, a dog, and two falcons.
Comparison with Libyan Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
Can we get back on topic with Carthage and West Africa now?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Can we get back on topic with Carthage and West Africa now?
Did you read the whole Hanno's own account? That's basically the only thing known about a Carthage and West Africa connect. If you go to the link on that post the page form wher it came from gives estimation of the moden African names corresponding
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Can we get back on topic with Carthage and West Africa now?
Did you read the whole Hanno's own account? That's basically the only thing known about a Carthage and West Africa connect. If you go to the link on that post the page form wher it came from gives estimation of the moden African names corresponding
I already did and also...
quote:Carthage sent caravans across the Sahara to West Africa and traded its manufactured and agricultural goods for African gold, ivory, salt, wood, ebony, skins, and hides. Carthaginian merchant ships also ventured to West Africa where they traded bronze, textiles, ceramics and fine metalwork in what is now Senegal and Nigeria. In the 5th century BC, the Carthaginian navigator, Hanno, sailed to what is now Senegal in an attempt to establish a trading post to take advantage of the gold trade. Later, Carthage developed a monopoly on bronze production. As a result, Carthage became extremely wealthy and its impressive buildings, splendid temples, and lavish houses were an indication of how the region had benefited from trade. The fine houses were often situated around magnificent central courtyards. Carthaginian merchants became some of the wealthiest people, owning large vineyards and extensive plantations on which they grew wine or pastured animals. In time these merchants were to be found in practically all of the Mediterranean ports including those of Greece, Egypt and the eastern Mediterranean. Carthaginians had well-regulated trading connections that included commercial treaties involving imports and exports. Trade with Iberia (Spain) was important for obtaining silver, lead and tin ore for bronze. Carthage’s naval power enabled it to establish a monopoly on the tin trade with Britain. After tin, silver was the most important commodity. Carthage’s strategic position between Africa and Sicily gave it control of trade to the eastern Mediterranean. It also controlled the making of the Tyrian purple dye which was often more valuable than gold. Carthage produced finely embroidered and dyed cotton, linen, wool, and silk, as well as artistic and functional pottery, faience, incense, and perfumes. Its artisans worked with glass, wood, alabaster, ivory, bronze, brass, lead, gold, silver, and precious stones to create a wide array of goods, including mirrors, highly admired furniture and cabinetry, beds, bedding, and pillows, jewellery, arms, implements and household items. It traded in salted Atlantic fish and fish sauce, and brokered the manufactured, agricultural, and natural products of almost every Mediterranean people. Carthage did not issue a coinage until the end of the 5th century BC. This may have been because its trade with Africa and the tin trade with Britain was done through exchanges of goods, while deals with Greeks were paid for in silver bullion. Carthage’s trading monopoly was dependent upon its military power. Only Carthaginians were chosen for the navy, although sometimes slaves were conscripted, while for the less reputed army, mercenaries formed the main component
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