The Tuareg expanded southward from the Tafilalt region into the Sahel under their legendary queen Tin Hinan, who is assumed to have lived in the 4th or 5th century. Tin Hinan was believed to have been a Muslim of the Braber tribe of Berbers who came from Tafilalt oasis in the Atlas Mountains in the area of modern Morocco accompanied by a maidservant named Takamat. In this legend, Tin Hinan had a daughter (or granddaughter), whose name is Kella, while Takamat had two daughters. These children are said to be the ancestors of the Tuareg of the Ahaggar. Another version is that Tin Hinan had three daughters (who had totemic names referring to desert animals) who were the tribal ancestors. Her Muslim religion is anachronistic, as is the statement that Kella was her daughter or granddaughter, because the historical figure and real tribal matriarch Kella lived during the 17th century.
Clyde the Garmantes may not have been speakers but you would have to admit it's possible that some of the ethnically diverse Tuareg or other berbers who speak berber today may have decsended from the Gramantes
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
What modern Libyan ethnic group would this Tassili/Acacus/Fezzan mix translate into, and would this amalgam not contradict your link of the Garamantes with the Tebu, who are clearly a Chadic population, with Chadic ancestry? You also mentioned Tebu tomb architecture as far West as South Central Algeria, please specify how you've come to this conclusion. [/QB]
Slow down. Go slow, go slow. pt5
There is no one modern Libyan ethnic the prehistoric Tassili/Acacus/Fezzan translate to. And why would there have to be only one such group?
Since when are Tubu "clearly a Chadic population, with Chadic ancestry"?
I didn't come to the conclusion that Tin Hinan's tomb displays Tubu architectural features. That's something I got from Bovill's Golden Trade o/t Moors previously titled Caravans o/t Old Sahara.
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posted
This is pure conjecture. The Tuareg claim a western origin, not an origin in the Fezzan. Ehret maintains that the Tuareg do not expand into the central Sahara until the 1st Millennium AD (Heine and Nurse, African languages , p.292). This proposed migration would agree with Tuareg origin myth.
The late expansion of the Tuareg into the Fezzan would not support a common origin for the Beja and Tuareg. Moreover this idea of a Proto Chado-Berber group which includes Tuareg is without merit. Ehret places Berber languages in his myhtical Erythraic group.
Moreover I don't know where Tukuler developed the idea that the "Initial routing on the map can show movement of the Beja Cushitic ancestral component in Tuareg along the same corridor as Chado-Berber expansion." LOL. There are typological features shared by Beja and Tuareg, but there are no so-called "Beja Cushitic ancestral component in Tuareg " because the Tuareg came from the West, while the Beja lived in the east.
AfroAsiatic does not exist and you can not reconstruct the Proto-language.
This is true. Ehret (1995) and Orel/Stolbova (1995) were attempts at comparing Proto-AfroAsiatic. The most interesting fact about these works is that they produced different results. If AfroAsiatic existed they should have arrived at similar results. The major failur of these works is that there is too much synononymy. For example, the Proto-AfroAsiatic synonym for bird has 52 synonyms this is far too many for a single term and illustrates how the researchers just correlated a number of languages to produce a proto-form.
This makes it clear that you can not reconstruct Afro-Asiatic. It is assumed that if languages are related you should be able to reconstruct the proto-language of the language family. There was no such thing as a Proto-Chado-Berber.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Besides Tubu genetics, Haratin genetics is also vital in understanding the genetic history of the Sahara. Raise a cup to us staying alive until such reports appear.
The field still accept Cavalli-Sforza's classical nuclear markers defining Beja (Cushitic) Tuareg (Berber) high affinity. (Begin reading Cavalli-Sforza1994 p172here) He posits a 5k split between the two. If this map is correct Chadic and Berber do originate near the same geography in line with Ehret's proto-Chado-Berber.
Initial routing on the map can show movement of the Beja Cushitic ancestral component in Tuareg along the same corridor as Chado-Berber expansion. And WNW bound Nilo-Saharan utilized this same route. Tubu are Nilo-Saharans.
No major migration was necessary and the further from the initial contact points the less of the E Africans. No E Africans at all needed to be at furthest points of the language shift of Cushitic Beja to Tuareg Tamasheq and further on to "Berber."
E African mtDNA would thin out from Tschad to Fezzan being totally absent in the Maghreb and language shift still works. But note Tishkoff2009's STRUCTURE analysis Fig S13 show Beja and Mzabi essential not distinct with Beja more E African and Mzabi more Eurasian.
East African mtDNA in Fezzani Tuareg likely represents the deme bearing the lect that North Africans adopted, a proto-language introduced from W Sudan.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Clyde I already wrote about the Tin Hinan from Tafilalet Morocco Tuareg origin myth.
Did you bother to click the link I gave to Cavalli-Sforza and his take on Tuareg and Beja commonality?
No? Why not?
Because it's outside your holy ideaology dogma just like the Minoa vs Garama timeline debunk.
How you decide data is valid? Simple. If it contradicts your dogma its invalid, never mind how ridiculous your ideaology is.
That's why I can't take you seriously and hardly bother to dialogue with you. I may as well talk to the hand as present you with facts you just don't want to hear.
So my stuff is primarily directed to the ES membership and lurkers as well as drop by surfers randomly looking for info and so wind up here.
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Clyde, people in North Africa who are not Arab are generally called berber. Therefore if the Garamante did not speak berber some of the the descendants of the Garamante might speak berber or Arabic today and have ancestry from the Garamantes. This is possible. You think they just disappeared off the face of the earth? A population sometimes adopts new languages
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Great song and gotcha with the site maps. I glanced over their accompanying descriptions thinking you wanted to point out the distance between early Capsian site distributions and the Fezzan, as you did in your written reply.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: It's anachronistic to speak of ancient and pre-historic North African genetics in terms of Tuareg instead of what it really is the generic genetics of a very broad region in Africa where by the late Holocene many distinct ethnies began forming up until today.
How? Please explain. The 10kya Iberian migration embodied by H1 is very specific and, in its diversity, frequency and TMRCA matches Capsian site distribution. The Tuareg come to the fore as strongly (but not exclusively) defined by this component. That their ethnogenesis is recent has no bearing on this. Ancestry informative markers transcend plastic and petty human made divisions like ethnogenesis, religion, self-identity et al.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: How hard is it to think of relieving pressure from something by poking a hole in it? That's the idea that was applied to human skulls by the most primitive of people the Maurusians to modern day people coastal Berbers, Tubu, etc. But the idea never caught on with Tuareg.
So, you think the simplicity of ''just poking a hole'' dictates that it's more likely that Northern Algerian populations invented the practice independently, in Epi-palaeolithic, Metal age and modern times, even though there is biological continuity from all three time periods? I've never come across descriptions of trephination as marginalized as you describe it here. It is generally conceptualized as a surgical practice that is reflective of considerable anatomical awareness, especially when those having undergone this practice display signs of healing. Indeed, while Nikita et al and I disagree about the provenance of this practice, she agrees that its peculiar enough to act as a diffusion marker.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I have absolutely no idea where you ever read me saying anything even remotely resembling that.
I could have sworn that you maintained that the Tuareg were relatively recent arrivals in the Central Sahara, being preceded by Nilo-Saharan speakers in this region.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The field still accept Cavalli-Sforza's classical nuclear markers defining Beja (Cushitic) Tuareg (Berber) high affinity. (Begin reading Cavalli-Sforza1994 p172here) He posits a 5k split between the two. If this map is correct Chadic and Berber do originate near the same geography in line with Ehret's proto-Chado-Berber.
This has never been reproduced AFAIK, and neither have the many other links (Nubian-Moroccan, Biaka-Sara, San-Somali). I'm not denying that the results are authentic, just that the used variables aren't very powerful as judged by it's fruits. The K-based, mtDNA and Y Chromosomal analysis have consistently and repeatedly tied all Berbers together (including the Tuareg, in the latter two types of analysis), yet, they're all over the place in this analysis.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Since when are Tubu "clearly a Chadic population, with Chadic ancestry"?
Since they're Nilo-Saharan speakers of the Saharan branch, tied linguistically with the likes of the Kanembu and other Chadian populations. All Chadic speakers and Nilo-Saharan speakers who aren't recent arrivals in Chad have so far tested positive for this ancestry. Certain Cameroonian populations from Chad also have tested positive for this ancestry. See Tishkoff 2009. They also mostly have little to high Y T-M184 and/or R-V88 (including the Toubou, per Spencer Wells), like many other Chadic and Chadic admixed populations.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde, people in North Africa who are not Arab are generally called berber. Therefore if the Garamante did not speak berber some of the the descendants of the Garamante might speak berber or Arabic today and have ancestry from the Garamantes. This is possible. You think they just disappeared off the face of the earth? A population sometimes adopts new languages
No. They are suppose to have migrated to the Niger Delta region
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Clyde I already wrote about the Tin Hinan from Tafilalet Morocco Tuareg origin myth.
Did you bother to click the link I gave to Cavalli-Sforza and his take on Tuareg and Beja commonality?
No? Why not?
Because it's outside your holy ideaology dogma just like the Minoa vs Garama timeline debunk.
How you decide data is valid? Simple. If it contradicts your dogma its invalid, never mind how ridiculous your ideaology is.
That's why I can't take you seriously and hardly bother to dialogue with you. I may as well talk to the hand as present you with facts you just don't want to hear.
So my stuff is primarily directed to the ES membership and lurkers as well as drop by surfers randomly looking for info and so wind up here.
I rarely dialogue with you and never with the racist Djehuti because you fail to have the background to discuss many issues from diverse perspectives. You rarely critically evaluate the research you use and, practice a form of "authority research", that is research based upon the belief that whatever an authority writes is valid and reliable.
I have taught research for almost two decades, and I have always taught my students to be respectful of research while always being critical and asking questions about the research to make sure it is valid and reliable. You never question what you read and assume because it was published it can not be refuted. This gives you a false sense of certainty that you are right when often, you are wrong.
My background is history, anthropology and linguistics. Since I can read a variety of languages and publication history I hvae knowledge of much research. This provides me with a deep literature base.
I evaluated your statements based on linguistic knowledge. I rejected them based on the research of Ehret.
I have made it clear I am a falsificationist. As a result a hypothesis can only be confirmed or disconfirmed. You argued that the Beja and Tuareg descend from a similar ancestor. This is impossible because even Ehret dates their expansion to the first millennium AD.
At this time the Beja were still in Nubia. In fact they later began to write Meroitic inscriptions. Given this reality I can hardly accept your arguments as valid when you failed to make them jel with the historical evidence.
Population genetics are only as valid as the supporting evidence you present to support your inferences. Failure to know the history, anthropology and etc., of an area can lead a researchers to reach conclusions that can be easily dismissed. They can be easily dismissed because the archaeology they use does not reflect the genetic inferences they often make.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The Tomb of "Tin Hinan" at Ablessa in the Hoggar deserves looking into. We don't the name of the woman buried there. Expelled Tripolitanians, not arriving at Hoggar until after Hilal and Soleym Arab times, became the Kel Ahaggar. Finding the tomb they attached Our Nonna Tin Hinan to it. Tin Hinan as in their origin myth establishing Moroccan emmigration.
Thing is the tomb dates to ~350 CE by carbon 14 tests of her bed. A semblance of Roman coin that dates to Constantine ~313 CE helps fix the time.
According to the tradition Queen Tin Hinan and her handmaid Takama hail from the far west, Tafilalet in Morocco. Those of Kel Ahaggar Tuareg subethnies claim direct descent from either of these women (respectively as either nobles or vassals). It would take some time to grow from two women to an entire people. Who were the fathers? Where did the father's come from? Does the tradition mention an entourage or only queen and handmaid?
Taking tradition at face value Morocco is too distant for Garamas descent. I understand the great social value of descent traditions but by science the tomb's date fits the Garama era centuries before Tripolitanians settled Hoggar. Garamas traded with the Ahaggar Mountains folk as it was on the route from Garama to the mid- Niger Valley network.
Who the entombed woman was or what her particular ethnic group was is unknown to me. Examining her cranial and post-cranial remains and her funerary goods and how she was laid to rest and the tomb itself for clues may tell us. Again, I wouldn't hold breath waiting on her aDNA report.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde, people in North Africa who are not Arab are generally called berber. Therefore if the Garamante did not speak berber some of the the descendants of the Garamante might speak berber or Arabic today and have ancestry from the Garamantes. This is possible. You think they just disappeared off the face of the earth? A population sometimes adopts new languages
No. They are suppose to have migrated to the Niger Delta region
.
Sanhaja Berbers played a prominent role in the spread of Islam in the Niger Delta region. The Sanhaja or Senhaja (also Zenaga, Znaga or Sanhadja; were once one of the largest Berber tribal confederations of the Maghreb, along with the Zanata and Masmuda.After the arrival of Islam they also spread out to the borders of the historic Sudan as far as the Senegal River and the Niger. From the 9th century Sanhaja tribes were established in the Middle Atlas range, in the Rif Mountains and on the Atlantic coast of Morocco. A part of the Sanhaja were settled in central/eastern Algeria and northern Niger such as the Kutama, and played an important part in the rise of the Fatimids. The Sanhaja dynasties of the Zirids and Hammadids controlled Ifriqiya until the 12th century.
The descendents of the Sanhaja are found today in the Middle-Atlas and eastern Morocco, the Tuaregs Kutama in northern Niger and Mali[citation needed] across the Sahara, in addition to the Kutama of Kabylie in Algeria (Ketama) -wiki
Tuareg woman of Niger Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde, people in North Africa who are not Arab are generally called berber. Therefore if the Garamante did not speak berber some of the the descendants of the Garamante might speak berber or Arabic today and have ancestry from the Garamantes. This is possible. You think they just disappeared off the face of the earth? A population sometimes adopts new languages
No. They are suppose to have migrated to the Niger Delta region
.
Sanhaja Berbers played a prominent role in the spread of Islam in the Niger Delta region. The Sanhaja or Senhaja (also Zenaga, Znaga or Sanhadja; were once one of the largest Berber tribal confederations of the Maghreb, along with the Zanata and Masmuda.After the arrival of Islam they also spread out to the borders of the historic Sudan as far as the Senegal River and the Niger. From the 9th century Sanhaja tribes were established in the Middle Atlas range, in the Rif Mountains and on the Atlantic coast of Morocco. A part of the Sanhaja were settled in central/eastern Algeria and northern Niger such as the Kutama, and played an important part in the rise of the Fatimids. The Sanhaja dynasties of the Zirids and Hammadids controlled Ifriqiya until the 12th century.
The descendents of the Sanhaja are found today in the Middle-Atlas and eastern Morocco, the Tuaregs Kutama in northern Niger and Mali[citation needed] across the Sahara, in addition to the Kutama of Kabylie in Algeria (Ketama) -wiki
Tuareg woman of Niger
I would be very interested in the Sanhaja DNA. I believe most of the members of the tribe during the various jehadi movements migrated to Iberia and spread many African haplogroups.
posted
^This is not just a hypothesis, but very well to be a valid argument.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote: "Firstly, haplogroup E-M2 (former E1b1a) and haplogroup E-M329 (former E1b1c) are now united by the mutations V38 and V100, reducing the number of E1b1 basal branches to two. The new topology of the tree has important implications concerning the origin of haplogroup E1b1. Secondly, within E1b1b1 (E-M35), two haplogroups (E-V68 and E-V257) show similar phylogenetic and geographic structure, pointing to a genetic bridge between southern European and northern African Y chromosomes. Thirdly, most of the E1b1b1* (E-M35*) paragroup chromosomes are now marked by defining mutations, thus increasing the discriminative power of the haplogroup for use in human evolution and forensics."
[...]
Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.
--Beniamino Trombetta et al. (2010)
Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
According to Natural Mystics in Rasta Live Wire the first inhabitant of North Africa, Iberia/Spain and Ireland were black Berber. Iberia was named after the Berber. The Kanuri of Nigeria are named Iberi Beris and they originated from the Garamante area of Fezzan in Libya. The name Iberi Beris may derived from Berber.
One of the most misrepresent people in North Africa are the indigenous Berber people. These beautiful women are not shown on mainstream television, movies and rarely in print. These are the descendants of the ancient Berbers that the ancient Romans spoke of and wrote about.
The original indigenous Berbers were the North African ancestors of the present day dark-brown peoples of the Sahara and the Sahel, mainly those called Fulani, Tugareg, Zenagha of Southern Morocco, Kunta and Tebbu of the Sahel countries, as well as other dark-brown arabs now living in Mauretania and throughout the Sahel, including the Trarza of Mauretania and Senegal, the Mogharba as well as dozens of other Sudanese tribes, the Chaamba of Chad and Algeria.” The Westerners have chosen to concentrate on the most recent world of the Arab and Berber-speaking peoples and present it as if it is a world that has always been. “It is like comparing the Aztecs of five hundred years ago with the ethnic mix of America today,” wrote Reynolds. “The story of when North Africa was Moorish and Arabia, the land of Saracens, has yet to be told.”
- Dana Reynolds, Anthropologist
Anthropologist, Dana Reynolds traced the African roots of the original North African peoples through a dozen Greek and Byzantine (neo-Roman writers) from the first to the sixth century A.D. “They describe the Berber population of Northern Africa as dark-skinned [modern Europeans call dark brown skin color, as black-skinned] and woolly-haired.” Among these writers who wrote about the Berbers were Martial, Silius Italicus, Corippus and Procopius.
Saint Augustine was a dark-skinned Berber and many of the later Roman emperors would have trouble getting citizenship in some of today’s European states.
– Professor Mikuláš Lobkowicz, the former rector of the Munich university and current director of the Institute of Central and East European Studies in Eichstätt.
There are those who say that the Berber is part of the African story of Ham, from the land of Ber, the son of biblical figure Ham.
The original inhabitants of Ireland before the Celts invaded were Berber people who stretch all the way from Saharan Africa to Western Ireland. In North Africa they are known as Berbers, the original people before the Arab invasion of North Africa, they were known to the ancient Greeks and Romans as “barbarians,” the Tuaregs of Nigeria, Niger, Chad, etc. are a Berber people.
[Editors note: the Kanuris of North-Eastern Nigeria are known as the Iberi-beris. They are Berbers originally from Fezzan Libya]
In Spain and Portugal they were known as “Iberians,” which is the name of the Peninsula. In Ireland the Berbers are known as “Hibernians.” The Celts and later invaders pushed them back to the West of Ireland, where you most commonly see the “black Irish” with black hair and brown eyes. The most popular recreational organization of Irish Americans is the Ancient Order of Hibernians (AOH).
Modern Berber family having a traditional meal
The images that are shown in mainstream television, movies and in print are of the lighter skinned people that are also referred as Berber. Modern north Africa has changed a great deal, from waves of invasions such as the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Germanic tribes, Arabs, Turks and the French have led to the amalgamation in the region. The role of literally millions of enslaved Indo-Europeans and concubinage in the creation of admixed populations in cities like Tunis, Tripoli, Fez, Sale and Algiers are well documented. This is the formation of populations in north Africa today. These now lighter skinned people do not call themselves African. In fact, the term “African” is a very demonized term to many, more than likely because of the modern European invasion into Africa, Europeans had to justify their behavior (some still do), and the term African is the object of ridicule and humiliation. The term Berber is now a regional word to apply to these people that now share many common cultural ideas and customs. “
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The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/ )The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan is.com/siwa_his.html )
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Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West.
So they have more paternal genetic ancestry related to West Africans than to East Africans?
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West.
So they have more paternal genetic ancestry related to West Africans than to East Africans?
Clyde is right,
quote:This site has been called Gobero, after the local Tuareg name for the area. About 10,000 years ago (7700–6200 B.C.E.), Gobero was a much less arid environment than it is now. In fact, it was actually a rather humid lake side hometown of sorts for a group of hunter-fisher-gatherers who not only lived their but also buried their dead there. How do we know they were fishing? Well, remains of large nile perch and harpoons were found dating to this time period.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ We've told crazy Clyde this how many times now and on how many threads for the past years he's been posting in this forum, yet he refuses to accept the FACTS and clings on to this silly lie that Berber originated in Europe even though there is NO evidence that Berber was ever spoken in Europe as a native language.
Doug, I don't know what those videos on Ethiopia has anything to do with the issue but you are right that Berber languages are related to Ethiopian and Egyptian languages but apparently close to Chadic languages like Hausa in Nigeria as well!
By the way, here are some past threads on Garamantes:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ We've told crazy Clyde this how many times now and on how many threads for the past years he's been posting in this forum, yet he refuses to accept the FACTS and clings on to this silly lie that Berber originated in Europe even though there is NO evidence that Berber was ever spoken in Europe as a native language.
Doug, I don't know what those videos on Ethiopia has anything to do with the issue but you are right that Berber languages are related to Ethiopian and Egyptian languages but apparently close to Chadic languages like Hausa in Nigeria as well!
By the way, here are some past threads on Garamantes:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ We've told crazy Clyde this how many times now and on how many threads for the past years he's been posting in this forum, yet he refuses to accept the FACTS and clings on to this silly lie that Berber originated in Europe even though there is NO evidence that Berber was ever spoken in Europe as a native language.
Doug, I don't know what those videos on Ethiopia has anything to do with the issue but you are right that Berber languages are related to Ethiopian and Egyptian languages but apparently close to Chadic languages like Hausa in Nigeria as well!
By the way, here are some past threads on Garamantes:
Have you come across any studies comparing Songhay/Sonrai to amazigh language?
No. Taureg is related. .
Are you then saying that Toureg are not Amazigh? What would you consider those people?
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ We've told crazy Clyde this how many times now and on how many threads for the past years he's been posting in this forum, yet he refuses to accept the FACTS and clings on to this silly lie that Berber originated in Europe even though there is NO evidence that Berber was ever spoken in Europe as a native language.
Doug, I don't know what those videos on Ethiopia has anything to do with the issue but you are right that Berber languages are related to Ethiopian and Egyptian languages but apparently close to Chadic languages like Hausa in Nigeria as well!
By the way, here are some past threads on Garamantes:
Have you come across any studies comparing Songhay/Sonrai to amazigh language?
No. Taureg is related. .
Are you then saying that Toureg are not Amazigh? What would you consider those people?
I just consider them Taureg. I don't believe that they claim they are Amazigh? They are probably decendants of nomadic Northwest Africans who were able to avoid being sold as slaves during the Portuguese slave trade.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
How can they not be Amazigh when their language is Tamasheq?
MAZIGH : "Berber" eponymous ancestor aMAZIGH : a "Berber" masculine singular iMAZIGHen : "Berbers" plural taMAZGHa : "Berber" lands taMAZIGHt = taMASHEQ : "Berber" language = Kel Tamasheq language
Aristocrat Twareg claim ancestry from the Amazigh Ait Atta of Tafilalet.
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The vocabulary among the Berbers is often disimilar.The early work on proto-Berber was based on Tuareg or Tamasheq.
Construction of contemporary Berber is based on all the Berber languages. It is difficult to make claims Kabyle and Tamazight pre-history because much of the patoral-agricultural terms are based on Latin.
.
quote:
Table 2. Latin loans into Berber, Kabyl examples Kabyle Gloss Source fuṛaṛ février [February] Latin februaris yebrir avril [April] Latin aprilis maggu mai [May] Latin maius (mensis), with -i- > gg also attested in Arabic loanwords tubeṛ octobre [October] Latin october buğamber décembre, période de grand froid [December, period of cold] Latin december, although Kabyle has b- instead of dafalku faucon [hawk] Latin falco tagerfa corbeau [crow] Latin corvus. Dallet (1982: 272) assumes it is from Latin but possibly also be Arabic ġurba Ghadames ugerf, tugerft errigla règle (pour tracer) [(drawing) rule], also tarigla, montant vertical [vertical beam of weaving loom] Latin regula tberna taverne, cabaret [inn, pub] Latin taberna Table 3. Latin loans in Kabyle relating to ox-ploughing
Kabyle Gloss Source atmun timon (de la charrue) [plow beam] Latin timonem iger champ labouré et ensemencé [plowed and sown field] Latin ager ikerrez labourer [to plough] Latin carrus but of Gaulish origin tayerza labour [ploughed field] Perhaps Latin aro, or French herser < Latin herpic-. Given
Roger Blench noted that:
quote:
Older Berber varieties were effectively eliminated through relexification, the gradual replacement of lexical and grammatical structures. It might be assumed that montane agricultural communities would not be subject to the same pressures, but their subsistence systems were also premised on borrowed Roman technology, the plough and orchard cultivation. They adopted the media lengua before transferring to mountainous areas.
posted
The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa, or ancient Crete and the Fezzan.The Garamantes were Mande speakers not Berbers.
The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers.Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Fezzanese(called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
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The claim that the dna studied in this paper was of the ancient Minoans is a joke. Historians have known for years that the original Cretans were replaced by an Indo-European population after 1500 BC, as a result, we have Linear A, written by the original Minoans, and Linear B written by the Indo-Aryan speaking Minoans.
The people in this study were mainly Indo-European speakers. In the Supplement, the authors make it clear that they used dna from Lassithi cave sample. This dna is roughly dated to "1800" BC. The dna is probably much younger and as a result, it would reflect the invading Indo-European population not the Keftiu=Eteo-Cretans/Eteo-Minoans.
This dna study is just an attempt to protray the Cretans as non-Africa. The dna evidence disputes this myth, because most belong to haplogroups H and U5.
The highest concentration of U5 is found among Berbers in NWA . It is also carried by Mande and Fulani Niger-Congo speakers in West Africa (1-4).
The U5 haplogroup carried by the Mande, like other SSWA is characterized by 16189,16192,16270 and 16320. The presence of hg U5 among the Mande speakers supports the linguistic evidence concerning the Keftiu.
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:
quote: The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.
But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt. . . Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East. A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.
Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).
If hg H in Africa is the result of a back migration the highest frequencies of this genome should move from the Levant through Arabia, Egypt and East Africa into the Sahara. But this is not the case in Egypt and Kenya there is o.o% of hg H, Saudi Arabia 8.7% and Yemen 4.7%. Instead of the highest frequencies of hg H moving from the Levant into Africa, we find that the migration of hg H is reversed. The frequency of hg H, decreases from Western Europe e.g., France 45.4% to 25% in Palestine. The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, and probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin. The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
References: Badro DA, Douaihy B, Haber M, Youhanna SC, Salloum A, et al. (2013) Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations. PLoS ONE 8(1): e54616. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0054616 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054616
Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543 Winters,C.(2012). There has been a Continuous Indigenous Sub-Saharan Presence in North Africa for 30ky. Comment: . http://olmec98.net/ContinuousEurope.pdf
Footnotes
1. Cerný V., Hajek M., Bromova M., Cmejla R., Diallo I. & Brdicka R. 2006. MtDNA of Fulani nomads and their genetic relationships to neighboring sedentary populations. Hum. Biol., 78: 9-27.
2. Rosa A, Brehem A. 2011. African human mtDNA phylogeography at-a-glance. J. Anthropol. Sci, 89:25-58.
3. Coia V., Destro-Bisol G., Verginelli F., Battaggia C., Boschi I., Cruciani F., Spedini G., Comas D. & Calafell F. 2005. Brief communication: mtDNA variation in North Cameroon: lack of Asian lineages and implications for back migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa. Am. J. Phys. Anthropol., 128: 678-681.
4. Ely B., Wilson J.L., Jackson F. & Jackson B.A. 2006. African-American mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in multiple African ethnic groups. BMC. Biol., 4: 34. .
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
. . Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of H into Africa via Iberia. This is supported by the fact that the diversity of Haplogroup H is greater in Anatolia and Europe than it is in Africa
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. . Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East. A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.
Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).
It's a big blunder on the part of Badro et al
Mali is by a large margin of Haplogroup L Only 10% of the population is Tuareg who have the high H frequencies. As we can see the Hg H reference for these charts (listed on the bottom chart) is Pereira 2010 Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987384/
Are Malians 52.4% Haplogroup H? Clearly NOT. You will find no corroboration of that in other sources
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa,
The Garamantes did not found civilization in Minoa stop making up stuff
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers.
The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were NOT Mande Speakers.
Keftiu
The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.
Keftiu The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.
On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:
Keftiu....... Manding
sh h.r........ Sye
Nsy ..........Nsye
'ksh .........Nkyi
Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)
'dm ..........Demba
Rs............. Rsa
This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.
In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language. .
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde if it was that easy professional linguists would be supporting this theory
Every linguist does not support every theory. Moreover, most linguist have little training in historical linguistics that know African languages.
The lack of experience among linguist has no effect on my discovery of the Keftiu cognate language.
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quote: Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.
[...]
Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP).
[...]
The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) [data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How- ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re- flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers.
[...]
results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
quote: Whereas inferred IBD sharing does not indicate directionality, the North African samples that have highest IBD sharing with Iberian populations also tend to have the lowest proportion of the European cluster in ADMIXTURE (Fig. 1), e.g., Saharawi, Tunisian Berbers, and South Moroccans. For example, the Andalucians share many IBD segments with the Tunisians (Fig. 3), who present extremely minimal levels of European ancestry. This suggests that gene flow occurred from Africa to Europe rather than the other way around.
[...]
Alternative models of gene flow: Migration(s) from the Near East likely have had an effect on genetic diversity between southern and northern Europe (discussed below), but do not appear to explain the gradients of African ancestry in Europe. A model of gene flow from the Near East into both Europe and North Africa, such as a strong demic wave during the Neolithic, could result in shared haplotypes between Europe and North Africa. However, we observe haplotype sharing between Europe and the Near East follows a southeast to southwest gradient, while sharing between Europe and the Maghreb follows the opposite pattern (Fig. 2); this suggests that gene flow from the Near East cannot account for the sharing with North Africa.
--Laura R. Botiguéa,1, Brenna M. Henn et al
Gene flow from North Africa contributes to differential human genetic diversity in southern Europe (July 16, 2013)
Or this, lioness.
quote:Haplogroup H dominates present-day Western European mitochondrial DNA variability (>40%), yet was less common (~19%) among Early Neolithic farmers (~5450 BC) and virtually absent in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.
Here we investigate this major component of the maternal population history of modern Europeans and sequence 39 complete haplogroup H mitochondrial genomes from ancient human remains. We then compare this 'real-time' genetic data with cultural changes taking place between the Early Neolithic (~5450 BC) and Bronze Age (~2200 BC) in Central Europe. Our results reveal that the current diversity and distribution of haplogroup H were largely established by the Mid Neolithic (~4000 BC), but with substantial genetic contributions from subsequent pan-European cultures such as the Bell Beakers expanding out of Iberia in the Late Neolithic (~2800 BC). Dated haplogroup H genomes allow us to reconstruct the recent evolutionary history of haplogroup H and reveal a mutation rate 45% higher than current estimates for human mitochondria.
--Brotherton P1, Haak W, Templeton J,
Nat Commun. 2013;4:1764. doi: 10.1038/ncomms2656.
Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans.
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quote: Resumen: New data and a review of historiographic information from Neolithic sites of the Malaga and Algarve coasts (southern Iberian Peninsula) and from the Maghreb (North Africa) reveal the existence of a Neolithic settlement at least from 7.5 cal ka BP. The agricultural and pastoralist food producing economy of that population rapidly replaced the coastal economies of the Mesolithic populations. The timing of this population and economic turnover coincided withmajor changes in the continental and marine ecosystems, including upwelling intensity, sea-level changes and increased aridity in the Sahara and along the Iberian coast. These changes likely impacted the subsistence strategies of the Mesolithic populations along the Iberian seascapes and resulted in abandonments manifested as sedimentary hiatuses in some areas during the Mesolithic–Neolithic transition. The rapid expansion and area of dispersal of the early Neolithic traits suggest the use of marine technology. Different evidences for a Maghrebian origin for the first colonists have been summarized.
The recognition of an early North-African Neolithic influence in Southern Iberia and the Maghreb is vital for understanding the appearance and development of the Neolithic in Western Europe. Our review suggests links between climate change, resource allocation, and population turnover.
--Cortés-Sánchez, Miguel Et al.
The Mesolithic–Neolithic transition in southern Iberia
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