quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
"The Berbers: Linguistic and genetic diversity" (PDF). ddl.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr. Retrieved 22 March 2015.
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"Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area". The American Journal of Human Genetics. 74 (5): 1023–34. doi:10.1086/386295. PMC 1181965. PMID 15069642.

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Alvarez, Luis; Santos, Cristina; Montiel, Rafael; Caeiro, Blazquez; Baali, Abdellatif; Dugoujona, Jean-Michel; Dugoujon, Jean-Michel; Aluja, Maria Pilar (2009-06-01). "Y-chromosome variation in South Iberia: insights into the North African contribution". American Journal of Human Biology: The Official Journal of the Human Biology Council. 21 (3): 407–409. doi:10.1002/ajhb.20888. ISSN 1520-6300. PMID 19213004.


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Cruciani et al. 2004, Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa.

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quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:
[s this looking specifically at black amazighs?

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The Amazigh groups on Morocco contain a variety of skin colors and hair types within each one so you are not going to find a study on "black amazighs".
The term Hartania (Haratin) is used for Southern Moroccan groups of the Tata region who are strongly mixed with black populations. Little is known about their origins.They are particularly found in Mauritania, Morocco and Western Sahara.
Their primary occupation has been as agriculture serfs, herdsmen and subservient workers, and they speak Hassaniya Arabic. They were owned in every town and farming centers before the time of Moroccan ruler Ismail Ibn Sharif.
The Haratins remain indispensable workers in modern oases societies, states Ensel, and continue to be mistreated in contrast to the upper strata called the "Shurfa".[19] According to Remco Ensel, Haratin along with Swasin in Morocco and other northern fringe societies of the Sahara, were a part of a social hierarchy that included the upper strata of nobles, religious specialists and literati, followed by freemen, nomadic pastoral strata and slaves. The Haratin were hierarchically higher than the `Abid (descendant of slaves) at the very bottom, but lower than Ahrar. This hierarchy, states Ensel, has been variously described as ethnic groups, estates, quasi-castes, castes or classes.[23][24]

The Haratins historically lived segregated from the main society, in a rural isolation.[24] Their subjugation was sometimes ideologically justified by nobles and some religious scholars, even though others disagreed.[25] The social stratification of Haratin and their inter-relationships with others members of the society varied by valley and oasis, but whether the Haratins were technically 'unfreed, semi-freed or freed' slaves, they were considered as "inferior" by other strata of the society.[26] The Haratin remain the marginalized population of Morocco, just like other similar groups around the world.[27


Buy this important book:

Black Morocco: A History of Slavery, Race, and Islam
By Chouki El Hamel

https://books.google.com/books?id=UwogAwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcove

read page 10 and then do further searches fro Haratin in the search field


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Amazigh groups in Morocco:

Drawa

Filala

Tekna

Mesgita

Zeri

Ghomara

Kabyle

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Sahrawi people

As with most Saharan peoples living in the Sahara, the Sahrawi culture is mixed. It shows mainly Berber-Tuareg characteristics, like the privileged position of women[10] identical to the neighboring Berber-speaking Tuaregs—and some additional Bedouin Arab and black African characteristics. Sahrawis are composed of many tribes and are largely speakers of the Hassaniya dialect of Arabic, and some of them still speak Berber in both of Morocco's disputed and non-disputed territories.

As described above, the Hassaniya speaking tribes are of Arabian Beni Hassan descent, who fused with the dominant Sanhaja Berber tribes, as well as black African and other indigenous populations (e.g. various indigenous Soninke speaking groups) migrants and captured in the south by the Berbers to sell to the Romans (black slaves in the ancient/Middle Ages trans-saharian route trade). Even though cultural arabization of the Berber people was thorough, some elements of Berber identity remain.

Some tribes, such as the large Reguibat, have a Berber background but have since been thoroughly arabized; others, such as the Oulad Delim, are considered descendants of the Beni Hassan, even though intermarriage with other tribes and former slaves have occurred; a few, such as the Tekna tribal confederation, have retained some Berber dialect of the area. Often, though not in the case of the Tekna, the Berber-Arab elements of a tribe's cultural heritage reflects social stratification. In traditional Moorish-Sahrawi society, Arab tribes of the Tekna confederation claimed a role as rulers and protectors of the disarmed weaker Berber tribes of the Takna confederation. Thus, the warrior tribes and nobility would be Arab.

However, most tribes, regardless of their mixed heritage, tend to claim some form of Arab ancestry, as this has been key to achieving social status. Many (the so-called chorfa tribes) will also claim descendancy from the Prophet Muhammad himself. In any case, no tribal identity is cut in stone, and over the centuries a great deal of intermarriage and tribal re-affiliation has occurred to blur former ethnic/cultural lines; groups have often seamlessly re-identified to higher status identities, after achieving the military or economic strength to defeat former rulers. This was, for example, the case of the largest of the Sahrawi tribes, the Reguibat. A Berber-descended zawiya (scholarly) tribe who in the 18th century took up camel nomadism and warrior traditions, they simultaneously took on more and more of an Arab identity, reflecting their new position alongside the traditional warrior castes of Arab Hassane origin, such as the Oulad Delim and the Arabic-speaking tribes of the Tekna confederation.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Any pictures to show what you mean?

There is no such thing as a modern day 'black Amazigh' as defined above. If you're talking about the people who brought the language family to the Maghreb a couple of millenia ago, as they existed back then, they don't exist anymore. You're probably talking about modern day Maghrebis with dark skin, but to say they're not hybrids... not sure if I buy into that..

The challenge is that dark skin in the Maghreb could either reflect mixtures native to North Africa (but still mixtures) and/or Maghrebis with SSA ancestry. For instance, the published Mozabite genomes include one or more outlier individuals with SSA admixture, which may be more recent than the SSA ancestry common to the entire sample. These outliers will undoubtedly have darker skin because they have up to ~75% SSA ancestry, while this percentage is lower in most of the rest of the sample.
 

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Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Any pictures to show what you mean?

There is no such thing as a modern day 'black Amazigh' as defined above. If you're talking about the people who brought the language family to the Maghreb a couple of millenia ago, as they existed back then, they don't exist anymore. You're probably talking about modern day Maghrebis with dark skin, but to say they're not hybrids... not sure if I buy into that..

The challenge is that dark skin in the Maghreb could either reflect mixtures native to North Africa (but still mixtures) and/or Maghrebis with SSA ancestry. For instance, the published Mozabite genomes include one or more outlier individuals with recent SSA admixture. Samples that conform to these two scenarios aren't rare.

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have you ever been to morocco?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 




Haratin/Saharawi People
"Young girl typically ornamented" Morocco Tata Tissint region, Morocco



Gnawas circa 1920s

http://www.afropop.org/9305/feature-gnawa-music-of-morocco/

Feature: Gnawa Music of Morocco

Dr. Chouki El Hamel received his doctorate from the University of Paris-Sorbonne in January 1993. His training in France at the Centre de Recherches Africaines was in precolonial African History. His interest has focused on the spread and the growth of Islamic culture and the evolution of Islamic institutions in Africa. His research is evidenced in his published articles and a book concerning intellectual life in precolonial Islamic West Africa. He taught courses in African History at North Carolina State University in Raleigh and at Duke University from 1994 to 2001. In 2001-2002 he was a scholar in residence at the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture in New York City and in 2002 he joined the History Department at Arizona State University. He is currently finishing his book, “Black Morocco: A History of Slavery, Race, and Islam” He contributed this essay to Afropop Worldwide for the program African Slaves in Islamic Lands.

Westerners who have visited Morocco have likely encountered Gnawa musicians. In the coastal Atlantic town of Essaouira, where an annual festival of Gnawa music takes place, and in Marrakesh, at its spectacular central square called Jamaa el-Fna. The colorful gowns and caps of Gnawa musicians, covered with cowry shells, coupled with the distinct sound of their instruments – metallic castanets, heavy drums and a three-stringed bass lute (guembri) – provide both visual and audio confirmation of the Gnawa presence.


Some of the best known genres of music to all Moroccans come from the classical Andalusian legacy, and reflect Morocco’s historic relationship with Spain. Andalusian music is recognized as a national music and is repeatedly featured on national audio-visual media. By contrast, the Sephardic music and folksongs from the Jewish communities in Morocco are unfortunately vanishing because Morocco lost its Jewish population to help create the state of Israel. Another important but often neglected genre of music is that of the Gnawa, who came from West Africa to Morocco by way of migration, both voluntary and forced. Although the Gnawa are now fully integrated in Moroccan society, the Gnawa still remain a cultural and a social distinctiveness.


The term Gnawa has three important meanings. First, it refers to black people who were enslaved in West Africa. It is commonly believed that Gnawa of Morocco were originally black slaves and who over time had become free under various historical circumstances. Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa – from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”


Second, it defines both a religious/spiritual order of a traditionally Black Muslim group. The Gnawa are traditionally a mystic order which marks their exclusiveness within Islam and the religious and spiritual components of Gnawa practice incorporates references to their origin and their enslavement.

Third, it denotes the style of music associated with this order. The ancestral memory (turath) of the displaced and enslaved people that were brought to Morocco is preserved mainly in their songs and dances.

Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role.

Etymologically speaking, the meaning of Gnawa likely derives from the Berber word aguinaw, which is connected with skin color. It means “black man” in contrast with the white Berber. This word could be itself the origin of the name Guinea because akal n-iguinamen in Berber means the “land of the black men” just like the Arabic term bilad as-sudan, which means, “land of the black people.” The term was also adopted by the Portuguese and appeared mainly as “Guinea” on European maps dating from the 14th century.

Arabic sources indicate that there was a steady flow of human trafficking across the Saharan desert from the 10th to the 19th centuries. Since the Almoravid dynasty in the 11th century, enslavement, conscription and trade brought people from West Africa (mainly from the area of present-day Mali, Burkina Fasso and Senegal) to the Maghreb (Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia). These enslaved groups were usually called `abid or sudan, both Arabic words, or else haratin or gnawa, Berber words. We can thus name among the ancestors of the black Moroccans of today the Soninke, the Bambara, the Mossi, the Fulani, and the Hausa. Archival sources indicate the use of blacks in the armies of the Makhzen, the central authority of Morocco, and in many cases, entire garrisons consisted solely of black soldiers. Many dynasties relied on black soldiers to maintain their power.

The first ruling dynasty in Morocco to use a large number of black slaves in the army during the Islamic era was the Almoravids (al-Murabitun). During the Almoravids, the ruler Yusuf Ibn Tashfin “bought a body of black slaves and sent them to al-Andalus.” With the additional troops provided through the slave trade, Almoravids defeated Alfonso VI of Castile in 1086 A.D. at the crucial battle of Zallaqa (near Badajoz). Arabic sources indicate that 4000 black soldiers participated in this famous battle. During the succeeding Almohad dynasty, the rulers had a private garrison of black soldiers, who also served as royal guards and during the rule of Muhammad an-Nasir, around 1200 A.D., their numbers reached 30,000. During this dynasty, the recruitment of enslaved blacks in the government became institutionalized, known as `Abid al-Makhzen, meaning “servants to the government.”

A third dynasty that used a large army of blacks was the Sa‘dis, who under the rule of Mawlay al-Mansur, invaded the Songhay Empire (in present day Mali) in 1591 A.D., which allowed them direct access to acquiring more black slaves for military purposes. In the late 17th century, Mawlay Isma`il gave orders to enslave all blacks including free black people to create his own army. Of course an act completely against the Islamic law, but he did it anyway.

In addition to the conscription of the blacks in the army, enslaved Black West Africans were assigned numerous occupations, including tasks in the home, farm, mines, oases, and ports. In many towns, slaves were primarily women who performed domestic labor or were concubines to the affluent class, while rural slaves were mainly male and worked in farming. Gradually, enslaved black people were freed either by manumission, by running away, or because their masters were forced to grant them freedom under different circumstances. After many generations, these freed black slaves eventually formed their own families and communities, such as those of the Gnawa mystic order.


Elements of pre-Islamic West African animism such as the belief in the spirit world are fundamental to the Gnawa order. For the Gnawa, the spirit world is inhabited by ancestral spirits who, among other spiritual creatures, can be used for either good or evil purposes. Ancestors are believed to act as intermediaries between the living and the supreme god, and the Gnawa communicate with their ancestors through prayer and sacrifice. The spirit world is also invoked through special ceremonies, constituted by drumming, clapping, the sound of the castanets, and dances, all designed to enlist the aid of ancestral saints to protect human beings from evil spirits and other predicaments, such as helping persons recover from an illness or a misfortune. These rites often involve spectacular trances through which contact with and appeal to ancestral spirits may be gained.

Even while adopting Islam, Gnawa did not totally abandon their animist traditions but rather continued to observe ritual possession. They combined Islamic tradition with pre-Islamic African traditions, whether local or sub-Saharan West African. After their conversion to Islam, while probably still in their country of origin, the Gnawa adopted Bilal as their ancestor and saint patron. Bilal was the first black person to convert to Islam and to become a companion of the Prophet Muhammad. Claiming Bilal as a patrilineal figure was not only to emphasize the nobility of belonging to Bilal but also an attempt to legitimize their identity in Islamic terms.


Historically, as a racial minority, the Gnawa suffered much discrimination and injustice at the hands of the Arab-Berber majority within the regions that the Gnawa inhabit. Conscious of their difference and their blackness, they chose Bilal a black man as agnate. Bilal was a special man. Originally from Ethiopia, he was born into slavery. He converted to Islam while still in captivity and was tortured for his conversion by his master Umayya b. Khalaf. When Abu Bakr as-Siddiq, a very close friend to the Prophet Muhammad, heard about the valor of Bilal, he bought him and set him free in the name of Islam. Bilal became the personal servant/assistant of the Prophet. He was also the first muezzin—meaning “caller to prayer”—of the newly established Islamic community in Medina. This special relationship with the Prophet brought Bilal a specialBaraka (a divine blessing). The Gnawa have constructed their Islamic identity by emphasizing a privileged status among Muslims – they converted to Islam even before Quraysh, the tribe to whom Muhammad belonged. Hence, it is not surprising to find the name of Bilal in many Gnawa songs. Additionally, to honor their spiritual and emotional link with Bilal and Islam, the Gnawa built a unique shrine in Essaouira dedicated to Bilal: the Zawiya Sidna Bilal, a place to celebrate their culture. Bilal is the symbol of the dialectic between Diaspora and homeland.

The Gnawa are a diasporic culture and one finds artistic and spiritual parallels between the Gnawa order and other spiritual black groups in Africa such as the bori in Nigeria and the stambouli in Tunisia, thesambani in Libya, the bilali in Algeria, and also outside Africa as in the case of the vodoun religion practiced in Caribbean countries (vodoun is a mix of Roman Catholic ritual elements and traditional rituals from Dahomey). The similarities in the artistic, spiritual and scriptural (e.g. related to Abrahamic written traditions) representations seem to reflect a shared experience of many African diasporic groups. The belief in possession and trance is crucial to Gnawa religious life. Music has served a patterned function in this belief and it is intrinsically linked to the Gnawa religious rituals and to their specific historic and cultural memories. It is their specific historic and cultural memories celebrated and invoked in songs, dances and musical chants that the Gnawa claim to provide access to the spiritual realm.

The Gnawa have influenced other Berber/Arab mystic orders or brotherhoods, as in the case of the Issawiya (16th century) and Hamdushiya (17th century). These brotherhoods added new elements to the usual sufi devotional rituals, such as trances and contacts with spirits, most likely influenced by contact with the Gnawa order. But these Zawaya and other sufi Berber or Arabic orders have been far more socially accepted within the regions where they are found than that of the Gnawa. The Gnawa, as a spiritual order within Moroccan Islamic society, was marginalized and is still marginal. Through their musical ceremonies and trances, they claim to cure insanity and free people from malign influences. They believe that God is too powerful for bi-lateral communication and direct manifestation and thus God can only be reached through spiritual manifestations in our world. Hence, the Gnawa are generally not considered a mystic order proper because they do not seek the conventional personal union with the divine but rather contact with the spirit world which acts as an intermediary through which contact with the divine may be accomplished.

The Gnawa have found legitimacy for their cultural distinctiveness within the regions and societies they inhabit even given their unusual and often marginalized religious rites, ceremonies, and musical practices. The images conveyed in their songs construct a coherent representation of displacement, dispossession, deprivation, misery and nostalgia for a land and a former life kept alive through their unique musical and ceremonial practices. The historical experience of the Gnawa sketched in this essay is very similar to those found in all forced diasporas. Through their ceremonies, their songs and gatherings, these people made restitution not of an “imagined community” but a real one to reconcile a fragmented past. The Gnawa provide a fascinating story of how they re/constructed their identity against a broken cultural continuity.

The Gnawa have, over many generations, productively negotiated their forced presence in Morocco to create acceptance and group solidarity. Unlike the conventional question in Black America, “Who are we?,” the Gnawa ask, “Who have we become?” Similar to the model of “creolization” – the integration of freed black slaves into the French cultural landscape of the American state of Louisiana , the Gnawa have created a model of their own creolization and integration into the Moroccan social landscape. This is one of the most crucial and striking differences between blacks in America and blacks in Morocco.

Over the past fifty years in North Africa, Gnawa music, like the blues in America, has spread and attracted practitioners from other ethnic groups, in this case Berber and Arab. Although most present-day Gnawa musicians are metisse and speak Arabic and Berber, some West African religious words and phrases do survive even though their meaning is lost. In Morocco, Gnawa music is found mainly where black people live in a relatively large number; large enough to form a distinctive community like the ones in Marrakech and Essaouira. These two cities are known historically to have had slave markets connected to the trans-Saharan slave trade.

Gnawa people have created a distinct space in Moroccan society. They play a social and spiritual role and in recent decades have become well-known public performers. Public, non-ceremonial performances outside the Gnawa mystic order is a recent development. In order to survive, the Gnawa have turned the mystical aspect of their music into a musical art. In the 1970’s, when the only popular music available was the Middle Eastern type, some Moroccan artists start to look into other Moroccan traditions. Some of the best examples are Nass al-Ghiwan who were inspired by the Gnawa mystic order to create an original Moroccan pop music. One of the members of the band was Abd er-Rahman Paco who was himself a Gnawa master musician from Essaouira. Gnawa music has engendered a popular style of pop music for mere entertainment such as Nass al-Ghiwan and Jil-Jilala. These two bands were the most listened to in Morocco in the 70’s and 80’s. In the 90’s, other groups emerged such as Nass Marrakech who blend traditional music with new songs that connect with contemporary themes and audiences. Yet, for the Gnawa, their music is primarily spiritual and used for healing purposes.


However, curiously, Gnawa music, similar to jazz in America, is not recognized as a national music. The national Moroccan music is the Andalusian music, which developed, in “Muslim” and came to with the expulsion of the Moors in 1502 A.D.. Gnawa music has inspired the development of popular Moroccan music in general and is analogically similar to the African-American spirituals, gospels, and eventually the genre known as “the blues,” also founded by former slaves. Gnawa music provides a perspective through which we may view the history of blacks in . It is a medium to discover and recover the African roots that still live on in Morocco.

Recently, Western musicians interested in African traditional music, have “discovered” the music of the Gnawa. As a result, many collaborations have ensued with famous jazz artists such as Randy Weston. The Gnawa are modernizing their style to make it more secular and with more commercial appeal. With these recent developments and their appeal to tourists, the Moroccan government in 1997established The Gnawa and World Music Festival in Essaouira.


Q&A with Banning Eyre

B.E: What do we know about slavery in Morocco before the Arabs came, even before the Romans came?

Chouki el Hamel: There was always slavery. Berbers were slaving blacks. Blacks were also enslaving other people. But before the coming of the Arabs, black West Africa was not perceived like a huge pool of slaves. It did not have great slave markets. That was a development that came with the Islamization of Africa. So with the Islamization of Africa there was an increase of the trans-Saharan trade. It is the conquest, actually, that stimulated this need for black soldiers. So there was a huge demand for enslaved people from West Africa. And why? It is because, legally, you can slave only people perceived to be “pagan.” And the area that was perceived to be “pagan” was the area of the Sudan and beyond that.
The race question came during the Crusades where Europe emerged as a strong power, and basically, the enslaved people who came from areas in Europe were diminishing. So the Arabs and Berbers dynasties that ruled North Africa turned, of course, south. And then slowly it became color slavery. So that is why I have said that in many dynasties, that ruled Morocco for instance, they relied on black soldiers. And during Mawlay Isma`il, it went even further because he enslaved all blacks, including the free ones, including the Muslims. That is an act that is actually outright illegal in Islam, but he did it. But the muftis, judges and scholars of Islam in Fez were against that. They went against the voices that had influence on the society, they were sometimes killed. We have evidence that one of them was killed. His name is Gassus. He was a very strong voice against the enslavement black Muslims.


B.E: How, ultimately, did slavery disappear from Morocco?


Chouki el Hamel: I don’t know of any text that formerly and officially abolished slavery. Slavery just went away with the coming of the colonization in 1912. Slowly, and gradually, slavery just died. It stopped existing because it was no longer needed. For instance, I’ll give you just one example. In the south of Morocco, until recently under colonialism, the black people, especially Haratin in the southern oases, in the area of Aqqa or Tata, blacks did not own land. The Berbers owned the land. Some were not slaves, but they worked as sharecroppers. And they were called khammasin. They worked as farmers on the land that belonged to the Berbers, and they got a fifth of the harvest. But they never owned the land. And it is through colonization, when the capitalist system was introduced, and cash was introduced, some of these black people who worked as sharecroppers went to Europe. They were able to have enough cash to buy the land. So it was through colonialism and the general capitalist system that these people who were marginalized, who were not entitled to own land, they suddenly had cash. And cash of course is power. So they bought land, and this has created a social mobility in the south of Morocco.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
@typeZeiss

I'm just reporting what the data says. If you have data supporting a different view, feel free to share it. This is the sample I was referring to a moment ago.

Quote:
"Different Mozabite individuals within our sample had different estimates of sub-Saharan African ancestry proportions, with a majority at close to 20%, but several individuals having a somewhat higher fraction. Exploration of the causes of this variation (Figure 7) revealed a systematic tendency for those individuals with higher proportions of sub-Saharan African ancestry to have large (tens of megabases) segments in their genome with an African origin. Such large segments are only consistent with admixture within the last 20–30 generations, showing the admixture process has continued into more recent times. In fact, the individual with the highest estimated proportion (75%) of sub-Saharan African ancestry had at least one inferred non-European chromosome throughout virtually their entire genome (Figure 7), consistent with admixture in the last generation, and demonstrating that the admixture process continues today in the Mozabite population."

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/artiid=10.1371/journal.pgen.1000519

The data shows that, today at least, it's not a good assumptation that dark skin in the Maghreb always correlates with Amazigh ancestry.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
@typeZeis

The original Amazigh either ARE, or were related to, these people. It makes the same migration from the eastern Sahara as Berber speakers and around the same time. It also has contact with the ancestors of West Africans and spills over into Europe via the strait of Gibraltar, so the parallels with the first Berber speakers are numerous.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25130626

This signal is extremely weak in modern day Berber speakers. It's almost completely replaced by Iberian, West/Central African and local Maghrebi haplogroup contributions. When you filter out the Eurasian mtDNA contributions of Maghrebis they cluster with West/Central Africans.

I've yet to see a single Maghrebi sample that doesn't conform to this general picture. Attributing all dark skin in the Maghreb to a pure Amazigh population therefore doesn't seem supported.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Xyyman a black amazigh means exactly what it sounds like. A amazigh that is black as opposed to a white or half caste one. Amazigh is no a monolithic group.


Anyone know of any studies that have looked soecorocly at black amazigh groups?

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quote:

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Haplogroup E


Haplogroup E is the most frequent haplogroup in Africa, but is also found in the Middle East, southern Europe and Asia (Cruciani et al., 2002; Semino et al., 2004; Karafet et al., 2008). Among its sub-clades, E-M81 and E-M78 seem to be of North African origin with Paleolithic and Neolithic expansions that reached surrounding areas (Arredi et al., 2004; Cruciani et al., 2007).

Firstly, E-M81 is the most common haplogroup in North Africa showing its highest concentrations in Northwestern Africa (76 % in Saharawis in Morocco (Arredi et al., 2004)) with cline frequencies decreasing eastward: Algeria (45 %), Libya (34 %) and Egypt (10 %) (Robino et al., 2008; Triki-Fendri et al., submitted; Arredi et al., 2004).


Besides, Ottoni et al., (2011) have reported that E-M81 appear to constitute a common paternal genetic matrix in the Tuareg populations where it was encountered at high frequency (89 %).

Hence, the distribution of this haplogroup in Africa closely matches the present area of Berber-speaking population’s allocation on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup-ethnic group parallelism (Bosch et al., 2001; Cruciani et al., 2002; 2004; Arredi et al., 2004; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., 2011; Bekada et al., 2013). However, knowing that the Berber dialects have been replaced by Arabic in North African populations, carriers of E-M81 haplogroup are currently Arab-speaking peoples whose ancestors were Berber-speaking.


Outside of Africa, E-M81 is almost absent in the Middle East and in Europe (with the exception of Iberia and Sicily). The presence of E-M81 in the Iberian Peninsula (12 % in southern Portugal) (Cruciani et al., 2004) has been attributed to trans-Mediterranean contacts linked to the Islamic influence, since it is typically Berber (Bosch et al., 2001; Semino et al., 2004; Beleza et al., 2006; Alvarez et al., 2009; Cruciani et al., 2007; Trombetta et al., 2011).

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quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Xyyman a black amazigh means exactly what it sounds like. A amazigh that is black as opposed to a white or half caste one. Amazigh is no a monolithic group.


Anyone know of any studies that have looked soecorocly at black amazigh groups?

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quote:

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"In particular, the Tuareg have 50% to 80% of their paternal lineages E1b1b1b-M81 [34], [35]. The Tuareg are seminomadic pastoralist groups that are mostly spread between Libya, Algeria, Mali, and Niger. They speak a Berber language and are believed to be the descendents of the Garamantes people of Fezzan, Libya (500 BC - 700 CE) [34]."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

The whole "slave claim" is a distortion of history and ethnography.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
When you filter out the Eurasian mtDNA contributions of Maghrebis they cluster with West/Central Africans.

I've yet to see a single Maghrebi sample that doesn't conform to this general picture.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
What do you mean "if you filter out Eurasian mtDNA you're left with E-M81"? Are you suggesting that they only have Eurasian mtDNAs?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Those L mtDNAs cluster them with West/Central Africans, not East Africans. So, in terms of mtDNAs, they are not the population they were when they migrated west. M81 also has no evidence of representating that westward migration ~7kya. It's cline is opposite of what we'd expect in that scenario. In fact, its cline is most similar to U6's cline and therefore much more consistent with Iberomaurusians than Berber speakers.

I personally think E-M78 (V65) tracks their movements in North Africa. I'm not completely ruling out that Berber speakers were also M81, but I think a much stronger case can be made for a much older presence in the Maghreb for that hg.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Nodnarb

Most of these L lineages do not look like they come from the east. They support West/Central African migration. Look at the nearest haplotypes and distribution patterns. These lineages have already been analyzed by many papers discussed over years. In some cases entire papers have been devoted to origin of a single North African L lineage and the verdict was south to north migration.

http://www.paris-iea.fr/en/publications/the-genetic-impact-of-the-lake-chad-basin-population-in-north-africa-as-documented-by-mitochondrial-diversity-and-internal-variation-of-the- l3e5-haplogroup-2

Of course, not all L lineages they have fit this pattern. But most do.

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Nodnarb

Everthing is possible. But how would you make that work given the data we have to work with?

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You said there was a south-to-north migration to the Maghreb, and that this movement's ancestry would have been closer to West/Central than Northeast Africans. We know that Afroasiatic would have ultimately come from a more southerly latitude in the African continent, and we also know that there are West African populations that have acquired Afroasiatic languages (the Chadic family). So if there was a movement of West Africans into the Maghreb around the same time Afroasiatic is supposed to have spread there (e.g. the Green Saharan period), don't you think there could be a chance those West Africans had earlier acquired an Afroasiatic language ancestral to Berber, in an analogous situation to the acquisition of Chadic by other West African groups?


 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Bro, I'm not entertaining thin air possibilities when I have tangible things like E-V264 as a clade that unites Berber E-V65 and 'Chadic' E-V259. I have Canary Island 'aDNA' showing me I'm on the right track given their substantial proportion of E-V65. I have nothing that even remotely points in the direction of the picture you're painting. I prefer to go with where the data takes me.

But if you feel that's worth pursuing, you can try to build a case with the data we have accumulated over the years.
 

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Posted by Nodnarb (Member # 3735) on :
 
^ Never mind then. I simply wanted to ask if you knew anything that would preclude my scenario.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Why not use data like Hirbo and Boattini et al 2013. We can't just hit the reset button and start from scratch when there is a whole literature to help you screen your ideas. Why don't you use those papers?
 

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Posted by Nodnarb (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Why not use data like Hirbo and Boattini et al 2013. We can't just hit the reset button and start from scratch when there is a whole literature to help you screen your ideas. Why don't you use those papers?

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

The whole "slave claim" is a distortion of history and ethnography.

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^ LIE

and no sources

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
What do you mean "if you filter out Eurasian mtDNA you're left with E-M81"? Are you suggesting that they only have Eurasian mtDNAs?

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you're right they have some L
but also lot of H
Looking at the paternal it's believed to have East origin

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Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.

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By 15,000 YBP the Mechtoïdes, also known as Ibero Maurisans, appear (Bedoui, 2002). This group had anatomical similarities with the European Cro Magnons who expanded in Iberia during the same period. Before 9,000 years ago, the Sahara went through a wet period (Aumassip et al., 1988) which allowed several mesolithic cultures to flourish. The local population in Tunisia at that time may have coexisted with and mixed with sub-Saharan migrants (Dutour et al., 1988). Around 8,000 YBP a proto-Mediterranean community known as Capsian (Camps, 1968, 1975; Camps 8208;Fabrer, 1989; Hachid, 2000) arrived and spread widely in what is now Tunisia. Many relics of this group are found in Gafsa, a town in southern Tunisia. The Capsians could have undergone admixture with preexisting populations or else replaced them. Since 4,000 YBP, Berbers have expanded through all of North Africa. The term Berber refers to a heterogeneous group of indigenous peoples of North Africa who vary ethnically and culturally (Collignon, 1886). In present day Tunisia, two main Berber tribes are distinguished–the Zenata and the Ketama–although in some areas other groups are more commonly found. For instance, the Accaras tribes, originally from the Western Sahara, live in southern Tunisia near Smar.'

'The southern part of Tunisia's population is genetically similar to the Libyan population since the two areas contain the same tribes. The Libyan population is primarily of Berber origin; the name is taken from a particular Berber tribe—the “Libou” which means free man. More than 20% of the population speaks an Amazigh language.

[...]

Even with such a rich and complex demographic history the human populations living north of the Sahara desert in Africa have received little attention in published population genetics studies. More specifically, numerous studies targeting particular genes, especially those suspected to be of clinical interest, have accumulated in the scientific literature on particular North African populations, but as yet few studies of North African populations incorporating large sets of DNA polymorphisms exist. One of two recent exceptions is the report by Henn et al. (2012) which does sample a large number of autosomal SNPs from seven locations in North Africa with about 18 individuals from each site; however, the study has a limited number of comparative population samples from nearby geographical regions. Their work supports the presence of indigenous genomic variation extending back 12 to 40 thousand years ago with ancient gene flow in different periods from south of the Sahara, Southwest Asia, and Europe. The study of Bekada et al. (2015) studied mtDNA, Y-chromosome, and autosomal DNA markers on several hundred individuals from four locations in Algeria.

[...]

In general, the North African populations have a higher average heterozygosity compared with the other major world regions (except for the South Central Asians which are comparable) for both the 299 and 90 marker datasets. The average F st of the SNPs is 0.28 for the 65 population analysis.

[...]

The eight Tunisian and Libyan population samples cluster together between the populations of sub Saharan Africa and Southwest Asia in each of the two dimensional views summarized by the PCA figures but they are closer to the Southwest Asians and the populations of the southern or Mediterranean part of Europe. The North Africans are closest to that part of the sub Saharan cluster containing the Ethiopian
Jews, African Americans, and some of the populations of East Africa and farthest from the West and Central African populations in the dataset.

[...]

Indeed, uniparental genetic data support the arrival of sub Saharans around 20,000 years ago according to Frigi et al. (2010). Other studies show that the introduction of sub Saharan mtDNA lineages in North Africa is older than 30,000 YBP (Soares et al., 2012). The mixture between Iberian and sub Saharan Saharan populations was described in papers such as Periera et al. (2010), but more studies are needed to substantiate that mixture.

[...]

Recent studies (Henn et al., 2012; Bekada et al., 2015) have already supported the role of migrations during pre‐history and more recent eras affecting the development of human populations in North Africa. Botigué et al. (2013) explored the evidence for gene flow from North Africa and its possible effect on genetic variation in southern Europe.

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:
[s this looking specifically at black amazighs?

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The Amazigh groups on Morocco contain a variety of skin colors and hair types within each one so you are not going to find a study on "black amazighs".
The term Hartania (Haratin) is used for Southern Moroccan groups of the Tata region who are strongly mixed with black populations. Little is known about their origins.

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The Berbers constitute the main genetic background of the North African population as a whole even though in historical times several substantial migrations occurred into the region from Middle Eastern populations and elsewhere. Migrations during the historical period enriched the North African populations rather than replaced them. For many markers analyzed, North African populations display intermediate frequencies between European and African populations, possibly reflecting ancient as well as known historical admixture along with genetic drift. During the thousands of years of development a variety of populations contributed at different levels not only to allelic diversity of North Africa but also to different amounts of linkage disequilibrium between markers that are physically close to one another. Recombination events over many human generations should have generated new haplotypes that should be specific to the North African region; see Supporting Information Figures S14, S15 for some examples.

[...]

DISCUSSION

The PCA (Fig. ​(Fig.2),2), STRUCTURE (Fig. ​(Fig.3)3) and population tree (Fig. ​(Fig.6)6) results on 65 populations clearly show that the Tunisian and Libyan populations in North Africa represent a distinctive regional pattern of human genetic variation in the context of a broad sampling of human populations worldwide. Similar PCA and STRUCTURE analyses on a subset of 90 polymorphisms that add an additional seven populations from elsewhere in North Africa (Morocco to Egypt) generate comparable results (Supporting Information Figs. S3–S6). The more focused STRUCTURE results on 40 populations (Fig. ​(Fig.5)5) studied on 299 polymorphisms do not reveal any additional subclustering within the North African area for the genetic variation sampled by the 399 autosomal SNPs in this study. In the context of worldwide variation the Tunisian and Libyan groups appear to be very homogeneous. However, PCA analyses limited to North Africa and also North Africa with some SW Asian groups as outliers (Supporting Information Figs. S18–S21) reveal that even within the relatively small zone represented by Tunisia the local populations are different from one another. Including the seven North African populations from Henn et al. (2012) in similar restricted PCA analyses (based on 90 polymorphisms) also provides evidence of the diversity of the populations within the North African region (Supporting Information Figs. S22, S23), although no simple geographical patterns emerge.

A reasonable ancient settlement scenario for North Africa–based on various studies with different types of markers could be proposed as follows. Berbers arose from ancient events across North Africa with various sub‐regional differences. The autosomal SNPs analyzed here are not able to give a clear picture of what those pre‐historic events were. The Berbers constitute the main genetic background of the North African population as a whole even though in historical times several substantial migrations occurred into the region from Middle Eastern populations and elsewhere. Migrations during the historical period enriched the North African populations rather than replaced them. For many markers analyzed, North African populations display intermediate frequencies between European and African populations, possibly reflecting ancient as well as known historical admixture along with genetic drift. During the thousands of years of development a variety of populations contributed at different levels not only to allelic diversity of North Africa but also to different amounts of linkage disequilibrium between markers that are physically close to one another. Recombination events over many human generations should have generated new haplotypes that should be specific to the North African region; see Supporting Information Figures S14, S15 for some examples. Along with recombination, some specific and founder mutations, also described in the published literature, are in agreement with a common and ancient North African genetic background. All these demographicevents lead to the findings in the present study that North Africa constitutes a distinct population genetic entity.

Population migrations within and between the geographical regions during pre‐history and historical times have certainly made North Africa a cross‐road of change—culturally and genetically. The positioning of the North African groups studied near the core of the tree is consistent with this. The heterozygosity evidence is supportive of a complex history for North African populations. Divergent theories on the peopling of North Africa exist to explain the accumulated evidence from different research areas. There are those who say that a civilization radiated to North Africa 40,000 years ago built by the Aterian, after which North Africa was depopulated (see the introduction to Rando et al., 1998). Indeed, uniparental genetic data support the arrival of sub‐Saharans around 20,000 years ago according to Frigi et al. (2010). Other studies show that the introduction of sub‐Saharan mtDNA lineages in North Africa is older than 30,000 YBP (Soares et al., 2012). The mixture between Iberian and sub‐Saharan Saharan populations was described in papers such as Periera et al. (2010), but more studies are needed to substantiate that mixture.

The set of 399 autosomal SNPs studied here on 65 populations were not specifically selected to differentiate the Tunisian and Libyan populations representing North Africa from populations in other regions of the world. The DNA markers genotyped on the eight populations from North Africa had already been typed on the 57 reference populations. They are a subset of markers that had accumulated across a number of research projects and were originally selected for study most often because they had been shown to be highly heterozygous on average in most regions of the world or sometimes in a particular geographical region. The STRUCTURE analyses (Supporting Information Fig. S6) on 73 populations (with 15 populations sampled across North Africa) reinforce the idea that North Africa is not only genetically diverse but also a distinctive world region for human variation. More systematic studies—better, denser sampling of populations across North Africa as well as larger DNA marker sets—will likely be interesting and they will also make it easier to identify subsets of markers that differentiate North Africa from other world regions as well as markers that may show distinctive patterns within North Africa. Small, efficient sets of SNPs and other classes of DNA markers emerging from such efforts would be of benefit in a variety of areas such as anthropological research of normal human variation and ancestry, medical studies searching for common disease‐related mutations, and forensic applications identifying human remains in natural and man‐made disasters such as airline crashes, battle field casualties, and the victims and perpetrators of terrorist bombing events. Such work can also help fine tune studies that throw more light on the evolution of modern human populations. Recent studies (Henn et al., 2012; Bekada et al., 2015) have already supported the role of migrations during pre‐history and more recent eras affecting the development of human populations in North Africa. Botigué et al. (2013) explored the evidence for gene flow from North Africa and its possible effect on genetic variation in southern Europe. If, as some recent papers have suggested (Osborne et al., 2008; Balter, 2011), early human waves of migration out of Africa could have originated in part from North Africa before the formation of the Sahara desert, then the only way to help validate this is via empirical evidence that characterizes the autochthonous genome patterns still discernible in current day populations from across North Africa so that they can be compared to the descendant groups in other world regions. Broad‐based evidence is needed. Simple characterizations of groups and regions based on limited initial information is understandable, but will need to be updated and new perspectives obtained by additional analyses. For example, Sanchez‐Quinto et al. (2012) characterize the Tunisian population as homogeneous and inbred based on a small relatively inbred Tunisian sample reported by Henn et al. (2012); but that broad characterization is now untenable in the context of our more extensive sampling of populations in Tunisia which shows that the Henn et al. Tunisian sample is something of an outlier for Tunisia as a whole.

North Africa is certainly not the only world region deserving more intensive study by population genetics. The present study and other recent studies by Henn et al. (2012) and Fadhlaoui‐Zid et al. (2015) indicate that the effort has the potential to yield important new understanding of the genetic history of North Africa and adjacent regions.

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--Sabeh Frigi, Lotfi Cherni et al.

Genetic variation in Tunisia in the context of human diversity worldwide

AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 161:62–71 (2016)


One can only wonder who is truly mixed.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Repost

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Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup L2 originated in Western Africa but is nowadays spread across the entire continent.


MtDNA haplogroup L2 is the sister branch of the Eastern African L3′4′6 clade that contains all the OOA diversity within haplogroup L3. While L3′4′6 originated in Eastern Africa22, haplogroup L2 probably originated in Western Africa but is nowadays widespread across the continent; it is highly frequent in many regions, such as in Western/Central and Southeast Africa (probably associated with the Bantu expansion that occurred in the last few millennia) and in Northwest, most likely due to trans-Saharan slave trade18, 25.


Together with haplogroup L3, it represents ~70% of sub-Saharan mtDNA variation but despite its high frequency and wide distribution, L2 was not involved in the OOA 26, since most likely it was not yet arrived in Eastern Africa by that time.


The demographic history of L2 is not yet completely understood, especially concerning the age of the expansion into Eastern Africa, a region that might have acted as a refuge during some severe episodes of climate oscillations over the last hundred thousand years27. One possibility is that the expansion of L2 to the East, most likely as with the expansion to the South, was related with movements of Bantu-speaking populations. However, in the regions of highest frequency of L2 in Eastern Africa (over 30%, in the area of Sudan and Ethiopia)13 there are no records of Bantu groups. Furthermore, recent evidence from HVS-I13 suggests that this haplogroup might have first expanded to Eastern Africa much earlier, possibly due to the improvement of climate conditions during the early Holocene. This signal was also observed with Bayesian analysis of L2 (and L2a) complete sequences28. Moreover, particular clades of L2a and L2c suggest an expansion, possibly along the Sahel corridor, after the LGM18. Migrations at this time frame are also observed in branches of other African haplogroups, such as L0a, L1b and L3f2, 12, 18, 29.

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originally posted by Ish Gebor:
H has been suggested to be from local evolution, like M-E81. But still, most carry the L markers.

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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originally posted by Ish Gebor:
H has been suggested to be from local evolution, like M-E81. But still, most carry the L markers.

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"Most carry L lineages"? "H local evolution". Hmm interesting.

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Whereas inferred IBD sharing does not indicate directionality, the North African samples that have highest IBD sharing with Iberian populations also tend to have the lowest proportion of the European cluster in ADMIXTURE (Fig. 1), e.g., Saharawi, Tunisian Berbers, and South Moroccans. For example, the Andalucians share many IBD segments with the Tunisians (Fig. 3), who present extremely minimal levels of European ancestry. This suggests that gene flow occurred from Africa to Europe rather than the other way around.

[...]

Alternative models of gene flow: Migration(s) from the Near East likely have had an effect on genetic diversity between southern and northern Europe (discussed below), but do not appear to explain the gradients of African ancestry in Europe. A model of gene flow from the Near East into both Europe and North Africa, such as a strong demic wave during the Neolithic, could result in shared haplotypes between Europe and North Africa. However, we observe haplotype sharing between Europe and the Near East follows a southeast to southwest gradient, while sharing between Europe and the Maghreb follows the opposite pattern (Fig. 2); this suggests that gene flow from the Near East cannot account for the sharing with North Africa.

[...]

A model of gene flow from the Near East into both Europe and North Africa, such as a strong demic wave during the Neolithic, could result in shared haplotypes between Europe and North Africa. However, we observe haplotype sharing between Europe and the Near East follows a southeast to southwest gradient, while sharing between Europe and the Maghreb follows the opposite pattern (Fig. 2); this suggests that gene flow from the Near East cannot account for the sharing with North Africa.

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Haplogroup H dominates present-day Western European mitochondrial DNA variability (>40%), yet was less common (~19%) among Early Neolithic farmers (~5450 BC) and virtually absent in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.

Here we investigate this major component of the maternal population history of modern Europeans and sequence 39 complete haplogroup H mitochondrial genomes from ancient human remains. We then compare this 'real-time' genetic data with cultural changes taking place between the Early Neolithic (~5450 BC) and Bronze Age (~2200 BC) in Central Europe. Our results reveal that the current diversity and distribution of haplogroup H were largely established by the Mid Neolithic (~4000 BC), but with substantial genetic contributions from subsequent pan-European cultures such as the Bell Beakers expanding out of Iberia in the Late Neolithic (~2800 BC). Dated haplogroup H genomes allow us to reconstruct the recent evolutionary history of haplogroup H and reveal a mutation rate 45% higher than current estimates for human mitochondria.

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The Mesolithic–Neolithic transition in southern Iberia

Resumen: New data and a review of historiographic information from Neolithic sites of the Malaga and Algarve coasts (southern Iberian Peninsula) and from the Maghreb (North Africa) reveal the existence of a Neolithic settlement at least from 7.5 cal ka BP. The agricultural and pastoralist food producing economy of that population rapidly replaced the coastal economies of the Mesolithic populations. The timing of this population and economic turnover coincided withmajor changes in the continental and marine ecosystems, including upwelling intensity, sea-level changes and increased aridity in the Sahara and along the Iberian coast. These changes likely impacted the subsistence strategies of the Mesolithic populations along the Iberian seascapes and resulted in abandonments manifested as sedimentary hiatuses in some areas during the Mesolithic–Neolithic transition. The rapid expansion and area of dispersal of the early Neolithic traits suggest the use of marine technology. Different evidences for a Maghrebian origin for the first colonists have been summarized.


The recognition of an early North-African Neolithic influence in Southern Iberia and the Maghreb is vital for understanding the appearance and development of the Neolithic in Western Europe. Our review suggests links between climate change, resource allocation, and population turnover.

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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originally posted by Ish Gebor:
H has been suggested to be from local evolution, like M-E81. But still, most carry the L markers.

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"Most carry L lineages"? "H local evolution". Hmm interesting.

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The presence of sub-Saharan L-type mtDNA sequences in North Africa has traditionally been explained by the recent slave trade. However, gene flow between sub-Saharan and northern African populations would also have been made possible earlier through the greening of the Sahara resulting from Early Holocene climatic improvement. In this article, we examine human dispersals across the Sahara through the analysis of the sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroup L3e5, which is not only commonly found in the Lake Chad Basin (∼17%), but which also attains nonnegligible frequencies (∼10%) in some Northwestern African populations. Age estimates point to its origin ∼10 ka, probably directly in the Lake Chad Basin, where the clade occurs across linguistic boundaries. The virtual absence of this specific haplogroup in Daza from Northern Chad and all West African populations suggests that its migration took place elsewhere, perhaps through Northern Niger. Interestingly, independent confirmation of Early Holocene contacts between North Africa and the Lake Chad Basin have been provided by craniofacial data from Central Niger, supporting our suggestion that the Early Holocene offered a suitable climatic window for genetic exchanges between North and sub-Saharan Africa. In view of its younger founder age in North Africa, the discontinuous distribution of L3e5 was probably caused by the Middle Holocene re-expansion of the Sahara desert, disrupting the clade's original continuous spread.

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A total of 48% of the mtDNA haplotypes observed in the Tuareg populations could be ascribed to sub-Saharan haplogroups. Another 39%, however, were of West Eurasian ancestry (non-L types in Table 1), which is a substantial proportion considering the sub-Saharan geographical location. In fact, it has been observed that in typical North African populations there is a gradient of increasing frequency of West Eurasian lineages ranging from around 50–75% in the northernmost locations.34 The Tuareg's neighbours, however, have a markedly smaller proportion of West Eurasian haplotypes (22% in Western Chad Arabs, 8% in Shuwa Arabs from North-eastern Nigeria, 7% in the Buduma from South-eastern Niger and 6% in the Kanuri from North-eastern Nigeria).35 The remaining 13% of Tuareg haplotypes belong to the typical East African haplogroup M1.


The sub-Saharan mtDNA pool of the Tuareg is composed of various lineages from the major L-type haplogroups including: 2.3% of L0; 14.0% of L1; 58.1% of L2; 23.3% L3; and 2.3% of L4. We assayed to search for haplotype matches in an extensive database of 7211 individuals from all over Africa (Table 2). The most ancient lineages L0a1a and L1c, characteristic of east/southeast Africa13 and the Pygmies,39 respectively, were each observed in only one individual. The highly frequent African haplogroup L2, and specifically its dominant clade L2a, is also dominant in Tuareg – it is probable that some branches of L2a were involved in the Bantu expansion towards the African south13, 40 and many matches are observed for these haplotypes all over the continent. Curiously, the two L2a lineages having substitutions at positions 16 192 and 16 193, respectively, have no match in Africa. As far as the L3 macrohaplogroup is concerned, the two L3b haplotypes observed in the Tuareg are widespread throughout the continent, but one of the L3f1 haplotypes (T47 in Table 1) has no matches. Both are included in the L3f1 sub-haplogroup, which is quite frequent and widespread, and which very probably originated in East Africa. No L3f3, a typical marker of the Chadic migration,41 has been observed in the Tuareg.

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The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.

In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).

First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.

This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.


Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.

A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.

How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.

- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.

- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.

This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.

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Originally posted by Nodnarb:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Nodnarb

Most of these L lineages do not look like they come from the east. They support West/Central African migration. Look at the nearest haplotypes and distribution patterns. These lineages have already been analyzed by many papers discussed over years. In some cases entire papers have been devoted to origin of a single North African L lineage and the verdict was south to north migration.

http://www.paris-iea.fr/en/publications/the-genetic-impact-of-the-lake-chad-basin-population-in-north-africa-as-documented-by-mitochondrial-diversity-and-internal-variation-of-the- l3e5-haplogroup-2

Of course, not all L lineages they have fit this pattern. But most do.

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So given that, do you think my suggestion that Afrasan languages were spread to the Maghreb via West African-affiliated proxies is possible?

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Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa.

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quote:

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--Elena A.A. Garcea

Successes and failures of human dispersals from North Africa
(2011)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1040618211003612
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Amazigh berber mtDNA " Joining the Pillars of Hercules"

save this graphic for your records

Moroccan Berber mtDNA = column MB

Note L lineages very low,

Higher frequencies +
H
U

also T,V,K
_________________

Interestingly as per Morocco there are much higher
frequencies of L in Moroccan Arabs "MA"
than there are in Moroccan berbers "MB"according to this data
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Here is the mtDNA of Libyan Tuareg




First Genetic Insight into Libyan Tuaregs: A Maternal Perspective

Claudio Ottoni

_____________________

Heavily H1 with some much lower L frequencies

However the Tuareg population in Niger, Mali, Burkina Faso and Algeria, in this order
are all larger than in Libya and some of these places Tuaregs may have higher L frequencies
but I don't know of any articles pertaining to their mtDNA.
The Tuaregs are a much smaller population in Southern Morocco, numbering several thousand.
 

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Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
 
Tauri (Crimea oldest historical group) T + auri
Taurus (mtn. range) T + aurus
Oroan (India, Bhutan) Boar totem non-Hindu
Zoroaster (Persian) Z + oroa
Tuareg (Libya Amazigt) = Oran(ge)/Tangier(ine)
Oro (Spanish:golden)~aurat(Arab: glow/clothe/fur)
Abraham/Avrahm/Ibrahim/Oraham (Chaldean)

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2016/11/differences-in-early-neolithic-dairy.html?showComment=1480768214173#c1078802770702995754
butter/mentega/Manteca/ghee(India)/golden

http://phys.org/news/2016-12-polluted-river-bronze-age.html 7ka copper smelting in Jordan

note: butter = mother's udder/bottle/bos/umbo
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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originally posted by Ish Gebor:
H has been suggested to be from local evolution, like M-E81. But still, most carry the L markers.

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"Most carry L lineages"? "H local evolution". Hmm interesting.

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Basically they are saying that ancient pastoralists are recent slaves.

quote:

---

The presence of sub-Saharan L-type mtDNA sequences in North Africa has traditionally been explained by the recent slave trade. However, gene flow between sub-Saharan and northern African populations would also have been made possible earlier through the greening of the Sahara resulting from Early Holocene climatic improvement. In this article, we examine human dispersals across the Sahara through the analysis of the sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroup L3e5, which is not only commonly found in the Lake Chad Basin (∼17%), but which also attains nonnegligible frequencies (∼10%) in some Northwestern African populations. Age estimates point to its origin ∼10 ka, probably directly in the Lake Chad Basin, where the clade occurs across linguistic boundaries. The virtual absence of this specific haplogroup in Daza from Northern Chad and all West African populations suggests that its migration took place elsewhere, perhaps through Northern Niger. Interestingly, independent confirmation of Early Holocene contacts between North Africa and the Lake Chad Basin have been provided by craniofacial data from Central Niger, supporting our suggestion that the Early Holocene offered a suitable climatic window for genetic exchanges between North and sub-Saharan Africa. In view of its younger founder age in North Africa, the discontinuous distribution of L3e5 was probably caused by the Middle Holocene re-expansion of the Sahara desert, disrupting the clade's original continuous spread.

---

--Eliška Podgorná et al.

Annals of Human Genetics
Volume 77, Issue 6, pages 513–523, November 2013


The Genetic Impact of the Lake Chad Basin Population in North Africa as Documented by Mitochondrial Diversity and Internal Variation of the L3e5 Haplogroup

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ahg.12040/abstr

quote:

---

A total of 48% of the mtDNA haplotypes observed in the Tuareg populations could be ascribed to sub-Saharan haplogroups. Another 39%, however, were of West Eurasian ancestry (non-L types in Table 1), which is a substantial proportion considering the sub-Saharan geographical location. In fact, it has been observed that in typical North African populations there is a gradient of increasing frequency of West Eurasian lineages ranging from around 50–75% in the northernmost locations.34 The Tuareg's neighbours, however, have a markedly smaller proportion of West Eurasian haplotypes (22% in Western Chad Arabs, 8% in Shuwa Arabs from North-eastern Nigeria, 7% in the Buduma from South-eastern Niger and 6% in the Kanuri from North-eastern Nigeria).35 The remaining 13% of Tuareg haplotypes belong to the typical East African haplogroup M1.


The sub-Saharan mtDNA pool of the Tuareg is composed of various lineages from the major L-type haplogroups including: 2.3% of L0; 14.0% of L1; 58.1% of L2; 23.3% L3; and 2.3% of L4. We assayed to search for haplotype matches in an extensive database of 7211 individuals from all over Africa (Table 2). The most ancient lineages L0a1a and L1c, characteristic of east/southeast Africa13 and the Pygmies,39 respectively, were each observed in only one individual. The highly frequent African haplogroup L2, and specifically its dominant clade L2a, is also dominant in Tuareg – it is probable that some branches of L2a were involved in the Bantu expansion towards the African south13, 40 and many matches are observed for these haplotypes all over the continent. Curiously, the two L2a lineages having substitutions at positions 16 192 and 16 193, respectively, have no match in Africa. As far as the L3 macrohaplogroup is concerned, the two L3b haplotypes observed in the Tuareg are widespread throughout the continent, but one of the L3f1 haplotypes (T47 in Table 1) has no matches. Both are included in the L3f1 sub-haplogroup, which is quite frequent and widespread, and which very probably originated in East Africa. No L3f3, a typical marker of the Chadic migration,41 has been observed in the Tuareg.

---

--Luísa Pereira,1,2 Viktor Černý, et al.

Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987384/table/tbl1/

quote:

---

The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.

In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).

First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.

This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.


Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.

A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.

How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.

- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.

- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.

This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.

---

Gasse, F., 2002. Diatom-inferred salinity and carbonate oxygen isotopes in Holocene waterbodies of the western Sahara and Sahel (Africa). Quaternary Science Reviews: 717-767.

Jolly, D., Harrison S. P., Damnati B. and Bonnefille R. , 1998. Simulated climate and biomes of Africa during the late Quaternary : Comparison with pollen and lake status data. Quaternary Science Review 17: 629-657.

Jousse H., 2003. Impact des variations environnementales sur la structure des communautés mammaliennes et l'anthropisation des milieux: exemple des faunes holocènes du Sahara occidental. Thèse de l’Université Lyon 1, 405 p.

Jousse H, 2003. Using archaeological fauna to calibrate palaeovegetation: the Holocene Bovids of western Africa. Submit to Quaternary Science Reviews in november 2003, référence: QSR 03-333.

Lézine, A. M. and J. Casanova, 1989. Pollen and hydrological evidence for the interpretation of past climate in tropical West Africa during the Holocene. Quaternary Science Review 8: 45-55.

Riser, J., 1983. Les phases lacustres holocènes. Sahara ou Sahel ? Quaternaire récent du bassin de Taoudenni (Mali). Marseille: 65-86.

Date received: January 27, 2004


http://at.yorku.ca/c/a/m/u/27.htm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Key point here is that the "east african" haplogroup M1 is also "sub saharan" African. Nice wordplay there though on the part of the researchers. Meaning that the Tuaregs have a majority of Sub Saharan African lineages with some 'Eurasian' mixture and it is most likely that that M1 lineage would have to be further analyzed to see if it represents the earliest movements of Berber speakers from East Africa. Not to mention the earliest references to Berbers were in the areas of East Africa in documents like the Periplus of the Erythrean(Eritrean) sea. [/QB]

---

Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel

Luísa Pereira, 2010

In this study, we provide new mtDNA and Y chromosome data sets of three unrelated Tuareg groups from three different countries (Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso).

The weak Eastern African influence in Tuareg is further supported by the M1 haplotypes belonging to the lineages characteristic of the later Mediterranean expansion (M1b and M1a2a) and the presence of very few matches for sub-Saharan L haplotypes with East Africa. The main post-LGM Eurasian and M1a2a lineages found in the Tuareg favour North African origin with migration to its southern location in the Sahel between ∼9000 and ∼3000 years ago. The upper time limit is defined by the age of the M1a2a, (estimated here from the coding region diversity observed in the three Tuareg, two North and two south Mediterranean individuals at 8000±2400), and by the upper 95% confidence interval for the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16 234 (8800 years ago); the lower limit is defined by the age of the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16 234 (3600 years ago).
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
The Tuareg in Morocco, number several thousand.









 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Amazigh groups in Morocco:

Drawa

Filala

Tekna

Mesgita

Zeri

Ghomara

Kabyle

_________________

related:

Tuareg (several thousand in Morocco)
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Key point here is that the "east african" haplogroup M1 is also "sub saharan" African. Nice wordplay there though on the part of the researchers. Meaning that the Tuaregs have a majority of Sub Saharan African lineages with some 'Eurasian' mixture and it is most likely that that M1 lineage would have to be further analyzed to see if it represents the earliest movements of Berber speakers from East Africa. Not to mention the earliest references to Berbers were in the areas of East Africa in documents like the Periplus of the Erythrean(Eritrean) sea.

---

Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel

Luísa Pereira, 2010

In this study, we provide new mtDNA and Y chromosome data sets of three unrelated Tuareg groups from three different countries (Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso).

The weak Eastern African influence in Tuareg is further supported by the M1 haplotypes belonging to the lineages characteristic of the later Mediterranean expansion (M1b and M1a2a) and the presence of very few matches for sub-Saharan L haplotypes with East Africa. The main post-LGM Eurasian and M1a2a lineages found in the Tuareg favour North African origin with migration to its southern location in the Sahel between ∼9000 and ∼3000 years ago. The upper time limit is defined by the age of the M1a2a, (estimated here from the coding region diversity observed in the three Tuareg, two North and two south Mediterranean individuals at 8000±2400), and by the upper 95% confidence interval for the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16 234 (8800 years ago); the lower limit is defined by the age of the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16 234 (3600 years ago). [/QB]

---

quote:

---

More promising in ascertaining Eastern African origin is another haplotype observed in seven Tuareg individuals from Burkina Faso belonging to haplogroup M1a, which, though being considered dominant in East Africa42 also spread to the Mediterranean, and which has a total age of 28 800±4900 years.

---

quote:

---

... with an African origin (haplogroups M and N) were the progenitors ...

---

--Sarah A. Tishkoff*

Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages


http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2010_04_16_archive.html











Explain how come almost the entire south looks like the people above? The lengths you go to make a fool out of yourself is simply amusing.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Phylogeography

The mtDNA haplogroup make-up of Italy as observed in our samples fits well with expectations in a typical European population. Thus, most of the Italian mtDNAs (,89%) could be attributed to European haplogroups H (,40%), I (,3%), J (,9%), T (,11%), U (,20%; U minus U6), V (,3%), X (,2%) and W (,1%); Figure 1. There are however important differences in haplogroup frequencies when examining them by main geographical regions. Thus, for instance, haplogroup H is 59% in the North, 46% in the Center, and decays to ,33% in the South; moreover, these regional differences are statistically significant: North vs South (Pearson’s chi-square, unadjusted-P val- ue,0.00003), and Center vs South (Pearson’s chi-square, unadjusted-P value,0.03724).


Mitochondrial DNA haplotypes of African origin are mainly represented by haplogroups M1 (0.3%), U6 (0.8%) and L (1.2%); from here onwards, L will be used to refer to all mtDNA lineages, excluding the non-African branches N and M [60,61].


A total of 282 Y-chromosomes were analyzed for a set of Y- SNPs and were classified into 22 different haplogroups (Figure 3). Two haplogroups were not found, even though markers defining these clades were tested: N3 and R1a1. Five haplogroups represented 76.71% of the total chromosomes: R1b3, J2, I(xI1b2), E3b1 and G. The frequencies averaged across populations were 26%, 21.2%, 10.2%, 9.9% and 9.2%, respectively. The remaining haplogroups sum to 23.2% in the total sample, and never above 4% in single population samples.

R1b3 frequency was found to be higher in the northern part of the country, while the Y-chromosome haplogroups G and E3b1, J2 and I(xI1b2)frequencies were higher in the south and in the central part of the country, respectively (Figure 1).
Regional differences are substantially higher in the Y-chromo- some than in the mtDNA.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Amazigh groups in Morocco:

Drawa

Filala

Tekna

Mesgita

Zeri

Ghomara

Kabyle

_________________

related:

Tuareg (several thousand in Morocco)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:








Explain how come almost the entire south looks like the people above? The lengths you go to make a fool out of yourself is simply amusing. [/QB]

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A lot of them are mulattos, that is the explanation stupid
 

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Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
M81 also has no evidence of representating that westward migration ~7kya. It's cline is opposite of what we'd expect in that scenario. In fact, its cline is most similar to U6's cline and therefore much more consistent with Iberomaurusians than Berber speakers.

I personally think E-M78 (V65) tracks their movements in North Africa. I'm not completely ruling out that Berber speakers were also M81, but I think a much stronger case can be made for a much older presence in the Maghreb for that hg.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:








Explain how come almost the entire south looks like the people above? The lengths you go to make a fool out of yourself is simply amusing.

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A lot of them are mulattos, that is the explanation stupid

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LOL SMH You have severe mental health issues.

What happened to polytopicity?


Kiffian

Forensic reconstruction
Resin, University of Chicago and Project Exploration





http://www.staabstudios.com/galleries/arch-7.html


Tenerean

Forensic reconstruction
Resin, University of Chicago and Project Exploration



http://www.staabstudios.com/galleries/archaeology.html


Gobero People

Forensic reconstruction
Resin, University of Chicago and Project Exploration

quote:

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Más de cien años ha permanecido la momia guanche mejor conservada que existe en el Museo de Antropología y de allí salió ayer para llegar a su nueva casa, el Museo Arqueológico Nacional (MAN), donde será la estrella del nuevo espacio dedicado a la prehistoria canaria.

Con un poema guanche despidieron en el Museo Nacional de Antropología de Madrid a la momia del Barranco de Herques, hallada en 1776 en Tenerife, tras lo que se inició su traslado al Arqueológico con un estricto protocolo de seguridad para evitar su deterioro.

A su llegada al MAN, seis operarios de una empresa especializada en transporte de obras de arte, embutidos en monos de protección y mascarillas, realizaron el traspaso de la frágil momia de la caja en la que fue trasladada a una vitrina especialmente diseñada para mantener las condiciones de conservación idóneas.

Hace unos meses ya se había hecho un simulacro del traslado y colocación de la momia, según explicó a Efe la conservadora jefe del Museo, Teresa Gómez Espinosa, que relató cómo el proceso ha sido muy complejo porque la momia es muy delicada.

La vitrina que la albergará a partir de ahora ha sido especialmente diseñada para mantener las condiciones de conservación idóneas e incorpora complejos dispositivos para análisis y mediciones en su interior con el fin de evitar el riesgo de contaminación por compuestos orgánicos volátiles o por biodeterioro.





Los momentos en los que la sacaron de la vitrina y el de instalación en la nueva fueron los más críticos, indicó la conservadora jefe, que consideró un éxito la operación, en la que se siguió un preciso protocolo debido a la fragilidad de la momia, muy sensible a las alteraciones.

Un embalaje muy sofisticado, realizado con un molde específicamente para el traslado, protegió a la momia durante el proceso para evitar peligrosos cambios ambientales y de luz.

«Es un ejemplar único», indicó a Efe el director del MAN, Andrés Carretero, que explicó que la operación llevada a cabo ayer es «como trasladar Las Meninas o El Guernica, no puede haber un solo fallo porque puede suponer un daño irreparable para la pieza".

Por ello, señaló, se hizo con todas las garantías y el personal técnico necesario tras los análisis realizados por el personal del Instituto de Patrimonio Cultural y un ensayo de todo el proceso.

Carretero está convencido de que la momia será un atractivo para todo el público y especialmente para los niños pero destacó el interés del museo en completar así la muestra del desarrollo cultural de la actual España ya que Canarias era la única Comunidad Autónoma que no estaba representada.





Ruth Maicas, del departamento de Prehistoria del MAN, indicó que es muy difícil conocer la fecha de la que data la momia y consideró que queda mucho por investigar en la antropología e historia canaria.


Testimonio de cultura prehispánica

Esta momia, de un hombre adulto y que tras su hallazgo fue enviada al rey Carlos III para el Real Gabinete de Historia Natural por su excepcional estado de conservación, es testimonio de uno de los rasgos más llamativos de la cultura prehispánica en las islas de Tenerife, Gran Canaria y La Palma, que momificaban a miembros destacados de la sociedad y los enterraban en tumbas colectivas en cuevas de difícil acceso, recordó Maicas.

El cuerpo se cubría con pieles de cabra u oveja, y en Gran Canaria se empleaban también tejidos de junco de palma.

El sistema de momificación que se practicaba en las islas Canarias era diferente al de otras culturas y deja visibles más restos del fallecido.

El nuevo espacio dedicado a la arqueología canaria se completa con piezas cerámicas, textiles, ídolos, lascas y otros materiales, además de gráficas, mapas y un audiovisual, que acercan al visitante a la sociedad prehispánica insular.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
M81 also has no evidence of representating that westward migration ~7kya. It's cline is opposite of what we'd expect in that scenario. In fact, its cline is most similar to U6's cline and therefore much more consistent with Iberomaurusians than Berber speakers.

I personally think E-M78 (V65) tracks their movements in North Africa. I'm not completely ruling out that Berber speakers were also M81, but I think a much stronger case can be made for a much older presence in the Maghreb for that hg.

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I am waiting on ancient dna to put the origin of M81 further back in the North West.....but it dont know.

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The specimen is there, but is it well contained for genetic analysis?

PBS- Skeletons of the Sahara prt1of 5



 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
We can't ignore the historical aspect. During at least the Moorish period scholars(both European and Arab) did note very dark skinned Berber groups like the Masmuda Berbers. From what I understand the BULK of the Eurasian ancestry in Berbers came when European converts were expelled from Europe to North Africa. Also remember Northwest Africa for the most part was sparsely populated. Heck the Sanhaja Berbers even today are quite dark skin.


And they were once the largest Berber Confederacy during the Moorish period.

In opinion I don't think we should contribute EVERY dark skinned Berber group to SSA ancestry especially Saharan Berbers like the Sanhaja... Just my opinion.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Keep in mind that I'm not denying the existence of modern Berbers with dark skin. My position is these modern Berbers didn't turn out to be what some people here (including me) thought they were before genome-wide studies become popular. Take, for instance, the Zenata Berbers. They have been sampled recently in Central Algeria and this what they look like genetically:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0138453

They are obviously a hybrid population. They have West African, Maghrebi and other, smaller, contributions. Many people here have considered these so-called 'black Berbers' an ancient and differentiated population associated primarily with E-M81. But their autosomal contributions don't support this because they don't form their own 'Amazigh' cluster (for instance, the Yoruba sample has its own gray cluster in this paper, while the Zenata Berbers belong to several different clusters assigned to neighboring populations).
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
still don't get it? Do you? What is "West African" ancestry.

There was NEVER any isolation. Therefore no ADMIXTURE?
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Oh no, gramps just debunked me again. Look at all that evidence in his post.


 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Stick to the armchair gobbledygook you know

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xyyman:
With my limited knowledge of the Amazigh.
(...)
These [are] Amazigh
(...)
He is not
(...)

---

 

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Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
Why does isolation have to be a factor for admixture to be a thing?I get that if there isn't a place to go and you have people coming in inhabited territory and you want access to resources then issues may arise,whites in the colonial era weren't really isolated but mixtures still occurred.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
There is a reason why 23andMe use the term "before itercontinental travel". Because they recognize that humans were never ISOLATED. Don't believe me? Check their website. Reason? Help him out Sweetness.

sigh!
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
How many times do we have to go through this. Look at the below mock up @ K2. Notice Khoi-San has waving lines vs maasai and sandawe. why? tic! tic!


All populations have “European/Eurasian” ancestry



Oh! Red mock up is mine!!! For the record
 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Keep in mind that I'm not denying the existence of modern Berbers with dark skin. My position is these modern Berbers didn't turn out to be what some people here (including me) thought they were before genome-wide studies become popular. Take, for instance, the Zenata Berbers. They have been sampled recently in Central Algeria and this what they look like genetically:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0138453

They are obviously a hybrid population. They have West African, Maghrebi and other, smaller, contributions. Many people here have considered these so-called 'black Berbers' an ancient and differentiated population associated primarily with E-M81. But their autosomal contributions don't support this because they don't form their own 'Amazigh' cluster (for instance, the Yoruba sample has its own gray cluster in this paper, while the Zenata Berbers belong to several different clusters assigned to neighboring populations).

---

Aye... Now I get what you're saying. Indeed I think I now agree that Modern Berbers today in general are VERY admixed. Whether they be light or dark. There are no "pure" Berbers. But the reason why I posted my post is due to reading scholars mostly mentioning darker skinned Berbers especially during the Moorish period. Of course dark skinned to them could be the same color as say a Beja and not a Yoruba. Anyways I read some lighter skinned Berbers like the kabylia were once darker than they were before. I'll try to find that one.

But overall I get what you're saying. To me it seems like Berbers are among the MOST complicated African groups to study in Africa!

You LITERALLY can not have a fixed opinion. My theories on them changed so much but I still consider them(especiay the proto Berbers) an African polulation.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Yep. I changed my views a little bit myself. Compared to the last time I spoke on this subject in 2014:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet in 2014:
Biological Structure
--The proto-Berbers, as a biological entity,
originate in East Africa and have gone extinct.
The available genetic literature shows that
modern day Berber speakers are an amalgam of at
least the following people: Ibero-Maurusians,
Chamla's proto-Mediterraneans (i.e. Iberians),
(Chadic) Wet Sahara Sub-Saharan Africans,
Neolithic Near Easterners, and, finally, Pastoral
Proto-Berbers, with the migrations happening in
that respective order (chronologically speaking).
The order of importance of the autosomal
contributions of these people to the modern day
Berber genepool is probably very similar to this
ordering.

Locus of expansion
The earliest evidence of Berber words exists in
Ancient Egyptian texts. These texts are much
older than the coalescent age of any modern
Berber language. This, therefore, completely
destroys any claim that the Berber language
expanded from the Maghreb or that it originates
from Vandal occupation:

quote:

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"In addition, Darnell and Manasssa mention the
so-called ‘Hound-Stela’ of the Eleventh Dynasty
ruler Antef II (2118-2069BC) where one of his
basenjis is named Abaikur “meaning ‘hound’ in
Berber, suggesting a southwestern origin for that
particular dog” (p. 81)."

---

link

On the other hand, modern day extant Berber
languages only coalesce to 2-3kya according to
glottochronological work:

quote:

---

"Several scholars have suggested that the level
of diversity inside Berber is similar to that
inside the Germanic or the Romance language
groups. If diversification and time depth were to
correlate in the same way in these European
language groups as in Berber, this would imply a
time depth of about 2000–2500 years only (Louali
and Philippson 2004)."

---

--Dugoujon et al. 2009

This indicates that the earliest Berber languages
to split off from the main stem were spoken in
regions adjacent to the Nile Valley, and that
modern day Berber languages split off later.


Kefi's Taforalt and Afalou samples



Not very much to say here. Slightly less than half
of the samples are identical to CRS. This condition
is diagnostic of mtDNA H lineages, but occasionally,
mtDNA U(xU6) samples are reported which are
identical to CRS in HVS-I. The rest of the
samples only differ from CRS in a couple of
places. This is highly inconsistent with mtDNA L
lineages (which are typically more divergent
from CRS in HVS-I) and this shows in the assigned
haplogroups. When these sampled Taforalt people
were alive 12kya, they themselves were immigrants
from Europe, or they were 2nd, 3rd etc. generation
immigrants in the Maghreb. Fu et al corrected
mtDNA mutation rates shows older estimates for
mtDNA V, which are well in line with the cal age of
the sampled Taforalt remains. While not specifically
tested in Fu et al 2013, it's very likely that
this new corrected mutation rate would stretch the
U5b1b, V, H1 and H3 lineages in modern Berbers
back a bit beyond the ~10kya ages which are
typically assigned to these lineages.

In 2013 Kefi obtained similar results with Afalou
aDNA. Just like the Taforalt HVI-I sequences, they
shifted towards Eurasians:

quote:

---

"Phylogenetic analysis based on mitochondrial
sequences from Mediterranean populations was
performed using Neighbor-Joining algorithm
implemented in MEGA program. mtDNA sequences from
Afalou and Taforalt were classified in Eurasiatic
and North African haplogroups. We noted the absence
of Sub-Saharan haplotypes. Phylogenetic tree
clustered Taforalt with European populations."

---

--Kefi et al 2013 [/QB]

---

quote:

---

E-V257* individuals in their samples who were E-V257, but not E-M81. A Borana from Kenya, a Marrakesh Berber, a Corsican, a Sardinian, a southern Spaniard and a Cantabrian. As mentioned above, Trombetta et al. 2011 propose that the absence of E-V257* in the Middle East makes a maritime movement from northern Africa to southern Europe the most plausible hypothesis so far to explain its distribution.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
(Chadic) Wet Sahara Sub-Saharan Africans

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
"Such a model, however, does not immediately explain the high prevalence of the I2a1a1
haplogroup in Sardinia given the predominantly Neolithic farmer ancestry of the population."

---

quote:

---

Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb (see cluster in Figure 6). The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).

[...]

Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.

---

quote:

---

Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb




Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.





Table 3. Nine human populations sampled for craniometric analysis ranging in age from the Late Pleistocene (ca. 80,000 BP, Aterian) to the mid-Holocene (ca. 4000 BP) and in geographic distribution across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara [18], [19], [26], [27], [54].
doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.t003

---

quote:

---

The Kingdom of Morocco
Sanhaja, Masmoda, and Zenata are the three tribes constituting the Berbers .

The Sanhaja, from which sprang the Almoravide dynasty (the founders of Marrakesh) were nomads who in the 11C conquered the desert and much of the region to the south of it for Islam; the Masmouda were quiet farming people who lived in the north and west and in the High and Anti Atlas mountains and it was they who gave rise (from out Tin Mal , S of Marrakesh to the Almohade Dynasty which displaced the Almoravides; the Zenata a sub-group of which the - Beni Marin- swept in from the empty region between the Tafilalet and Algeria to become the great Merinide dynasty, were tough, horse-riding nomads of the cold high plateaux of the interior. Joined to the Arabs only by Islam, the Berhers have always held themselves proudly separate in all other matters, especially in the rural and mountain areas. There is no standard form of Berber language since each tribal group has always used its own version, and there is no recognized Berber script or literature. Their strongest form of self-expression is music and dancing, which is rhythmic but with little harmony, compelling, loud and often quite intoxicating.

---

quote:

---

"In particular, the Tuareg have 50% to 80% of their paternal lineages E1b1b1b-M81 [34], [35]. The Tuareg are seminomadic pastoralist groups that are mostly spread between Libya, Algeria, Mali, and Niger. They speak a Berber language and are believed to be the descendents of the Garamantes people of Fezzan, Libya (500 BC - 700 CE) [34]."

---

quote:

---

The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan.

[...]

Carrying out biological or genetic investigations of the Tuareg has not always been easy because of their demanding lifestyle and their often negative attitude to the European colonists. Cavalli-Sforza et al,2 whose synthesized study of classical protein and serological markers is well known, noticed a genetic link between the Tuareg and Beja from Eastern Sudan. The fact that the genetic distances between the Tuareg and Berber/North-western Africans were larger than that between the Tuareg and Beja, provides a picture of a common origin and population separation at some point more than 5000 years ago. Interestingly, both people are also pastoralist and speak Afro-Asiatic languages, even if the Beja language (Bedawi), with its four dialects, belongs to the Cushitic branch, whereas Tamasheq belongs to the Berber branch. The fact that these two peoples today speak different languages might be explained either by the Tuareg having acquired the Berber language during their westwards migration, or possibly by the Beja coming under the influence of some Eastern African peoples as language shift is a relatively common phenomenon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
keep in mind according to xyymanian theory the forefathers of modern Europeans are berbers, they just got a higher dose of plasticity

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
The problem in north Africa since the saharan wet phase is that it has been sparsely populated. This makes it very easy for "outside" groups to have a bigger impact on local populations than if the area was originally more densely populated. Not only that, but you are talking about pockets of HIGHLY MOBILE populations spread over a very large area (the Sahara is larger than the continental United States). Therefore it it very difficult to say precisely what the dominant genetic signature was of any Africans migrating westward from the East bringing Berber languages with them. Distinguishing what genes they originally had starting in the East and then what genes they picked up as they moved west and interacted with other population remnants such as those of the central Sahara responsible for the black mummies there, followed by what other immigrants introduced during the Roman and Islamic era is difficult.

Well it is difficult if you rely on the biased sampling as found in modern day scholarship. The only way to get a better picture of this is to sample more of the scattered populations across the Sahara not simply those on the extreme coasts and certain populations Far away in "sub Saharan" Africa. All the various small population centers from Southern Tunisia into the Ahoggar mountains and regions into Northern Mali, Chad, Niger, Mauritania, Sudan and so forth would have to be Sampled. But that kind of sample data set has yet to be captured.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:
I specifically want to know about black amazigh populations in Morocco and what there DNA tells us. If we listen to the stories of the Z'nega which a lot of these people come from, then they would have come from Northern Senegal and Southern Mauritania originally. My question is, what does the DNA of these black Amazigh populations tell us? are there even such studies? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

The tawnie Moores are divided into five severall
People or Tribes : to wit, the Tribes called Zanhagi,
Musmudi, Zeneti, Hacari and Gumeri.

(13) What Pory translates "tawnie Moores", with deliberate
disregard of Leo's text, and Florianus " Subfusci", is, in the original,
"Affricani bianchi" (white Africans), and " I Bianchi dell* Affrica" (the
whites of Africa), that is, the Berbers, to distinguish them from the
Negroes. The word " Moor", as used by Pory and by all the writers
of his time, and, indeed, subsequently, in a very loose way, is almost
equivalent to Mohammedan. Leo never calls the Arabs "Africans",
they being immigrants from Arabia into Africa, though no doubt well
known as individual settlers and traders long before they invaded
Barbary in A.H. 27 (a.d. 647).

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by typeZeiss:
I specifically want to know about black amazigh populations in Morocco and what there DNA tells us. If we listen to the stories of the Z'nega which a lot of these people come from, then they would have come from Northern Senegal and Southern Mauritania originally. My question is, what does the DNA of these black Amazigh populations tell us? are there even such studies?

---

this is the best you will get

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00493.x/asset/j.1469-

The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
C. Coudray1∗ , A. Olivieri2, A. Achilli2,3, M. Pala2, M. Melhaoui4, M. Cherkaoui5, F. El-Chennawi6, M. Kossmann7, A. Torroni2 and J. M. Dugoujon1
2008





 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
http://www.embassyofmorocco.us/kingdom.htm

EMBASSY OF THE KINGDOM OF MOROCCO

BERBERS


History

Since the beginning of history there have been Berbers in North Africa end they were already well established when the Phoenicians made their first incursions in 1200 BC. Their origins are uncertain but thought to be Euro-Asiatic, The generic name Berbers, was imposed on them by the Arabs meaning those who were not Arabs.

Sanhaja, Masmoda, and Zenata are the three tribes constituting the Berbers .


The Sanhaja, from which sprang the Almoravide dynasty (the founders of Marrakesh) were nomads who in the 11C conquered the desert and much of the region to the south of it for Islam; the Masmouda were quiet farming people who lived in the north and west and in the High and Anti Atlas mountains and it was they who gave rise (from out Tin Mal , S of Marrakesh to the Almohade Dynasty which displaced the Almoravides; the Zenata a sub-group of which the - Beni Marin- swept in from the empty region between the Tafilalet and Algeria to become the great Merinide dynasty, were tough, horse-riding nomads of the cold high plateaux of the interior. Joined to the Arabs only by Islam, the Berhers have always held themselves proudly separate in all other matters, especially in the rural and mountain areas. There is no standard form of Berber language since each tribal group has always used its own version, and there is no recognized Berber script or literature. Their strongest form of self-expression is music and dancing, which is rhythmic but with little harmony, compelling, loud and often quite intoxicating.

The Phoenicians and Carthaginians:

The first invaders are believed to have been the Phoenicians, coming from the land known then as Caanan in the Eastern Mediterranean inthe 12C BC. Gradually they established trading posts along the north coast of Africa and traces at their occupation have been found at Lixus (Liks), which was probably the earliest, Tangier (Tangis)Mellilia (Russadir) Chellah part of Rahat and Tamuda (near Tetouan). These traces are usually in the form of fish-salting factories and are often heavily overlaid by Roman remains. The Phoenicians were essentially a maritime people, not interested in conquering or colonizing, and paying scant attention to he primitive berber tribes and poor agricultural land of the interior; therefore, their colonies were little more than enclaves along the coast, separated by great open spaces of wasteland which they did not need. Their main center of influence was Carthage (Tunisia). When Carthagebecame an independent state, the more civilized Carthaginians arrived and turned the north coast settlements into prosperous towns:they are known to have developed the fish salting and preserving into quite a major industry and their anchovy paste, called "garum" was widely exported. They also grew wheat and probably introduced the grape. The Carthaginians exercised a considerable cultural influence on the Berbers even long after the Sack of Carthage in 146 BC; indeed, it probably increased at that time as hundreds of Carthagians fled westwards and took refuge from the Romans in the friendly enclaves along the coast .

The Romans:

After they had taken Carthage, the Romans moved westwards into the Berber kingdoms of Mauritania and Numidia(Algeria now) which became part of the Roman Empire. In 13 BC the Emperor Octavius granted the kingdom of Mauritania to the young Berber prince, Juba, son of Juba I of Numidia who had committed suicide 13 years earlier after the defeat by the Romans at the battle of Thapsus. In 25 8(2 they added the whole of Numidia to his realm. Educated in Rome and married to the daughter of Mark Antony and Cleopatra, known as Cleopatra -Stlene, hts pedigree was unpeccabte dnd he ruled wisely, probably living in Volubilis. This had already become a h3erher town of sonic statiding betore the Rornans arrived, due in part to the natural fertility of the region surrounding it and in part to the te~ching of the Carthaginians enabling the Berbers to get the best out ol the land. The next 400 years formed Morocco ‘s Dark Age and very little is known about this period. The Vandals and Goths who were sweeping through Spain may have touched the northern tip of Morocco on their way eastwards to Carthage but there are no traces that they have stayed. The Berbers in the mountains and the desert continued life much as before. The Romnanised, part-Christian, Berber Mauritanians of the cities of Volubilis, Sala Colonia,(Chella) Tingis and others held on to their mixed cultural heritage and maintained a degree of civilization, as evidenced by one or two Latin inscriptions, found in several places, which date from as late as the mid 7C. But the weak and divided nature of the country was to prove no match at all for the next wave of invaders.

ISLAM

The Idrissides
By the 7C AD the Arabs were in full expansion. They were inspired primarily by their fierce desire to spread their own religion of Islam throughout the World. but they were doubtless particularly attracted to North Africa by the endless stretches of desert sand which were to them like home. It was in 670 that the first Arab invasions of the North African coastal plain took place under Oqba Ben Nafi, commander of the Umayed dynasty in Damascus. He is best known for having founded the city of Kairwan (S of Tunis) and for having built thefirst ever mosque in North Africa, He swept with his army into what is now Morocco in the year 683. Which he called this Maghreb al Aqsa or farthest West When a second Ummayed leader, Musa lbn Nouasser, arrived in 703,the Berbers were not unwilling to participate in the Islamic expansion into southern Spain and into the more southerly areas of Morocco, However, the progress of Islam remained patchy and small enclaves of Christians still existed in the interior though many fled to Spain). This lack of national unity persisted until the arrival of ldriss Ben Abdallah, a descendant of the prophet Mohammed, in 788. There are very few original Arab sources available for reference about this early period but that which is most frequently cited by historians is the Raoud El Kartas, a chronicle by the 13C writer from Fez, Ibn Abi-Zar-El-fasi: from this we learn that ldriss Ben Abdallah fled into Egypt from the Abbasides .He arrived by way of Kairwan, first in Tangier and then in the former Roman city of Volubilis where was received by Berbers already fully converted to Islam by the earlier Arab arrivals. The Berbers chief proclaimed Idriss King and pledged the support of his own and neighboring tribes. It seems that the arrival of an assured leader who would guide the country out of the spiritual uncertainties which had increased since the death of Oqba ben Nafi was welcome. Idriss II was born after his father’s death and was educated and prepared for his awesome task. He became King at the age of 12, in 804. He founded Fez which in his time was well prospered. In 818, 8000 Arab families arrived after being expelled by Christians from the Emirate of Cordoba in Spain. Seven years 2000 families came from Kairwan. These ‘refugies’ were welcomed and installed, respectively, on the right and left banks of the river which divides the town. It was very largely as a result of the of these people, with their refinements and skills, that Fez became a great spiritual and intellectual center whose influence very much reached to the far north of the country and, later, beyond. Idriss IIwho died in 828In Morocco came the next dynasty, from the south The Almoravides. They were camel-riding Berber of the Sanhaja group of tribes, to whom cultivation of the soil was unknown. For a century or more they Have been conquering and converting to Islam the black countries of the Sahara, inspired by their search for the source of gold which had been flowing into Morocco from somewhere in the region of the Niger river. The campaigns fought by the Almoravides were violent and successful and they soon controlled the whole of the south, under the leadership of Ibn Tachafine ( the founder of Marrakech in 1062, along with Al Koutoubia Mosque). Much of Spain became part of the Almoravide empire. A period of peace and prosperity followed, enriched by the refined culture of the Andalucian courts to which had been added a healthy dose of Berber virility and discipline.

The Almohades

A new power was emerging. The Almohades were Masmoda berbers from the high and the Atlas mountains .their leader, Mohamed Ibn Toumart, was a man of extarordinary power. The foundation of his doctorine was absolute unity with God, from which stemmed the name of Mouwahhidine, meaning unitarian. Yacoub Al Mansour was a great statesman. The whole country prospered at his reign: spiritually, intellectually, economically and architecturally. Marrakesh was still the capital. Fez flowered as never before, and the end of the 12C is generally regarded as an apogée in Morocco’s history.

The Merinides:
The Beni Marin were a tribe of Nomadic Zenata Berbers who came from an area between Taza and Algeria. The policy of the Merinides in running the affairs of Morocco was enlightened they the first Moroccans to introduce a simple form of civil service. They were also the first to introduce the Mellah, or Jewish quarters in all major tows, so that the Jewish could live secure and unmolested. The Merinides were also the first to introduce the concept of Medersa(originated from Baghdad and later on introduced to Egypt). Fez is liberally scattered with fine examples within easy walking distance of the Karawiyine. Sultan Abu Inan built the Bou Inania Medersa in Fez. The Merinide Soltans surrounded themselves with scholars who could lecture not only about Koran but also about science and law , poetry and geography. The well-known traveller Ibn Batuta( 1304-78) was an honored member of the court of Abou Inan who gave him a secretary to write down stories of his travels as in the black Sea and Tambouktoo. Ibn Khaldoun, the 14 C historian and a Spanish Muslim spent many years as adviser and close associate of Merinide Sultans. When the dynasty was feebled, Spain and Portugal were turning eyes towards Morocco .At that time, there was another ruler, Ibn Wattas, who came from Asilah to Fez. When he left Asilah, the Portugueuse invaded Asilah and took many family membersof Ibn Wattas and 5000 people as slaves, then Ibn Wattas signed a treaty with Portugal which allowed the portugueuse to invade Asilah, Tangier , Essaouira(Mogador)Mazagan (El Jadida) Zemmour, Safi and Agadir and Ceuta. So, for a time, almost the entire west coast of Morocco became a seperate Portugueuse colony.

The Saadians

Were decsendants from the prophet Mohamed. They originally came from Arabiain the 12C, and settled in the valley of the Draa in the South of Morocco. They moved to Fez and were easily given power by the Wattasides. In the 16 C, they rebuilt the town of Taroudant as their capital. During the Saadians’reign, the portugueuse had always dreamt of regaining power in the Moroccan territories. King Sebastian who was asked helped from one of the sultans nephews, landed in Asilah with a massive force of soldiers, there followed a memorable battle in 1578 at Ksar Kbir. The battle was known as the battle of the Three Kings, in which the portugueuse army was defeated, and in which King Sebastian, the Pretender and the Sultan Abd El Malik died. Glorious in their victory, the Saadians under the reign of Ahmed Saadi(1578-1603) settled down in Fez. The Badi Palace and the Ethereal Mausoleum ( les tombeux Saadians) in Marrakesh are proofs of the wealth of Saadians.

The Alaouites
They were also decsended from the prophet Mohamed. They had arrived from Arabia some three ceunturies earlier to settle near Rissani in the Tafilalet region in the south.( They are referred to as Filali). Unlike preceding dynasties they did not move and seize power but were formally invited by the people of Fez to come to the capital and take over the throne of Morocco. The first Alaouite ruler ,Moulay Rachid, reigned in 1666. He restored order with a firm hand, revived the life of all mosques and drove out all the pretenders. Under the reign of Moulay Ismael( 1672-1727) Morocco was made again a great country.He exchanged ambassadorts with many leading Powers. Meknes was chosen by Moulay Ismael as the imperial city which he made his capital. Today, the miles of ruined walls, palaces and stables bear witness to his energy and ambition and also to the scale of his success. In 1757, another wise and strong Alaouite ruler came to the throne. He was Mohamed ben Abdellah. Hebuilt the city of Essaouira and invited the English, the French, and the jewish people to settle and to trade there. Moulay el hassan acceded to the throne in 1873. He had the task of pacifying the tribes and was the first monarch to enter the wild Souss Area, where the tribes never acknowledged the authority of the state. During his reign, the European governments suggested ways of reforming administration , such as fixed salaries, civil servants and a more structured method tax collection. Attacks on foreigners were frequent and the tribes took power into their own hands. At that time, the French occupied Morocco, The Spaniards, for historical reasons, insisted on sharing the influence on Morocco. In 1906, the Conference of Algeciras( in which 30 nations were present) took place and had the effect of internationalizing the whole affair. Tangier was an international free port, and the whole country was under the protectorate of the French government. In 1912, Sultan Moulay Hafid signed the Treaty of FEZ . He was relieved from the power to govern. The country was under the controle of a French Resident- General called Lyauty.He aimed to pacify and to construct. He also built the ports of Casablanca and Kenitra, the new towns of Rabat, Fez, Meknes and Marrakech, while the old medina of theses cities remained untouched. A modern educational system was introduced, the administration was modernised and the legal system reformed. Still the tribes in the south of Morocco were very rebellious. By 1920, there was a more structured rebellionand resistance in the Rif Mountains, led by Abdelkarim Khattabi. The French began by driving a wedge between Berbers and Arabs. The Sultan, at that time, signed a beber decree in 1930, which on the contrary of what the French calculated, brought the two parties even closer. Then , a serious movement of national independance was born especially formed by young intellectuals from Rabat and Fez. In 1927, Moulay Youssef was succeded by his son Mohamed V, aged 17 years old. It was not until after World War II that the independence movement really gathered momentum. The troops Moroccans provided for the French army had conducted themselves with honor. At that time, an official independence party was formed called Istiqlal,whose first act was to send a memorundum to the sultan and the French authorities asking for independence and a democratic constitution. The immediate reaction to this request was the arrest of several Istiqlal leaders , whereas the sultan refused to sign any more decrees concerning his people. In August 1953 the royal family was deported to Corsica and Madagascar, and another person was designed by the French to sit on the throne. Violence towards the French officials was the reaction of the Moroccan people, who claimed the return of the king. In December 1956, The king was taken to France , where he signed a declaration promising that there would be a constitutional monarchy which would move towards ademocratic state. In March 1956, the French signed an agreement in which they granted full independence to Morocco. The Spanish did the same and Tangier lost its international status during the same year. The Sultan formed a government and French Officials were gradually replaced by Moroccans. After the death of King Mohamed V on 26 February 1961, Moulay Hassan formally acceded to the throne on 3 March 1961. At the beginning of his reign, the new king sought to consolidate independence and unify the country, removing all foreign military presence in 1962. The year 1965 saw the implementation of agrarian reform and in 1969 the province of Ifni was returned to the mother country. The Green March, which took place in November 1975 with a view to re-integrating Kingdom’s Saharan Provinces, rallied the entire Moroccan people behind the King leading to the end of the occupation of the southern regions. Following the death of His Majesty King Hassan II on July 23, 1999, a new Sovereign, born after Independence, was entrusted with the destiny of the Kingdom. His Majesty King Mohammed VI acceded to the throne on 30 July 1999.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by typeZeiss:
I specifically want to know about black amazigh populations in Morocco and what there DNA tells us. If we listen to the stories of the Z'nega which a lot of these people come from, then they would have come from Northern Senegal and Southern Mauritania originally. My question is, what does the DNA of these black Amazigh populations tell us? are there even such studies?

---

this is the best you will get

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00493.x/asset/j.1469-

The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
C. Coudray1∗ , A. Olivieri2, A. Achilli2,3, M. Pala2, M. Melhaoui4, M. Cherkaoui5, F. El-Chennawi6, M. Kossmann7, A. Torroni2 and J. M. Dugoujon1
2008

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb178/beyoku/SiwaY-dna.pn


https://i.imgbox.com/xk3mqSPA.jpg

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Doug?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
The problem in north Africa since the saharan wet phase is that it has been sparsely populated. This makes it very easy for "outside" groups to have a bigger impact on local populations than if the area was originally more densely populated. Not only that, but you are talking about pockets of HIGHLY MOBILE populations spread over a very large area (the Sahara is larger than the continental United States). Therefore it it very difficult to say precisely what the dominant genetic signature was of any Africans migrating westward from the East bringing Berber languages with them. Distinguishing what genes they originally had starting in the East and then what genes they picked up as they moved west and interacted with other population remnants such as those of the central Sahara responsible for the black mummies there, followed by what other immigrants introduced during the Roman and Islamic era is difficult.

Well it is difficult if you rely on the biased sampling as found in modern day scholarship. The only way to get a better picture of this is to sample more of the scattered populations across the Sahara not simply those on the extreme coasts and certain populations Far away in "sub Saharan" Africa. All the various small population centers from Southern Tunisia into the Ahoggar mountains and regions into Northern Mali, Chad, Niger, Mauritania, Sudan and so forth would have to be Sampled. But that kind of sample data set has yet to be captured.

---

I specifically want to know about black amazigh populations in Morocco and what there DNA tells us. If we listen to the stories of the Z'nega which a lot of these people come from, then they would have come from Northern Senegal and Southern Mauritania originally. My question is, what does the DNA of these black Amazigh populations tell us? are there even such studies?

---

There has never been a question of the relationship between black Moroccans and populations to the South. The issue that has often come up however has been whether they represent "original" Moroccan Berber populations or the result of slave trading. Not to mention the discussion of historic Berber groups like the Almoravids always includes Africans from the south. So we know the relationship is there but there are no DNA studies specific to black Moroccan Berbers that I know of.

My response pointed out my opinion on the issue of unraveling the 'black' ancestry of the original Berbers in general using DNA. This includes the genetic impact of various populations involved as the original Berber speaking populations moved East and determining which populations were involved and their ancestries ("Eurasian", "Saharan", "West African", "Sahelian","East African"). My personal opinion is that in the Sahel belt there have always been populations moving East and West across Africa, as the Peuhl, Fulani and other groups still do to this day. So we know that Africans have been highly mobile since the beginning and require no "Eurasian" immigrants to provide the impetus for such movements. Meaning even if you isolate and separate any "Eurasian" mixture, there is going to be an issue identifying the various lineages and what populations contributed over time among highly mobile populations moving both east to west and north to south in and just below the Sahara among pockets of populations left since the last wet phase.

Of course there will always be the Eurpeans who misinterperet, twist and distort the data, such as claiming populations similar to this Peuhl woman are "Caucasoid":


http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-photo-made-available-30-july-2005-of-amina-dogue-from-the-peuhl-96049842.html
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Anyone know of any DNA studies that have been done on black amazigh in Morocco? Im curious as to what other African populations they show similarities to

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Deja-vu. Do you know how many threads we have in this forum dedicated to DNA studies on Amazigh/Berber?? A lot! You can check out the archives. In the meanwhile I am unaware of studies being limited to Berber groups based on skin color. Like all studies, the groups are sampled are based on ethnicity and locality or region. I get weary when people try to interject skin color. Of course it becomes clear to anyone familiar with North Africans in general or even just Amazigh speakers specifically that there exists phenotypic diversity even within one group i.e. admixture.

Sahrawi













Unlike Lioness, I will not just cherry pick the whitish looking ones only or just the black ones. Any cursury google image search will show that by and large the Sahrawi like many Berber groups show an overall 'mixed' or so-called "mulatto" look.

If one wants to know how the original Amazigh speakers look like, then perhaps the best evidence would be skeletal remains of those alleged speakers or their DNA.

My guess is that the aboriginal North Africans (Oranian/Afalou) and perhaps even some of proto-Amazigh speakers who are their partial descendants were relatively light skinned compared to sub-Saharans with complexions akin to Khoisan but they certainly aren't the whitish type idealized by Lioness, her mistress Mathilda, and other Euronuts.

I think the E-M81 carriers who spoke pre-proto-Berber were darker in complexion and likely akin to the Beja. In fact I'm reminded of an old Sforza study showing strong autsomal affinities between Tuareg and Beja.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
"I think the E-M81 carriers who spoke pre-proto-Berber were darker in complexion and likely akin to the Beja. In fact I'm reminded of an old Sforza study showing strong autsomal affinities between Tuareg and Beja."


Yes, that is true.

Btw,

quote:

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As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits.

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quote:

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The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan.

---

--Luísa Pereira,1

Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel

Eur J Hum Genet. 2010 Aug; 18(8): 915–923.
Published online 2010 Mar 17. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.21
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
We must always keep in mind...

The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north....--Joseph O. Vogel (1997)

And from the Atlas Mountains of Morocco..



Thus any talk of Eurasians being founders of Berber populations or cultures instead of influencers of it is a joke.
 

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Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
We can't ignore the historical aspect. During at least the Moorish period scholars(both European and Arab) did note very dark skinned Berber groups like the Masmuda Berbers. From what I understand the BULK of the Eurasian ancestry in Berbers came when European converts were expelled from Europe to North Africa. Also remember Northwest Africa for the most part was sparsely populated. Heck the Sanhaja Berbers even today are quite dark skin.


And they were once the largest Berber Confederacy during the Moorish period.

In opinion I don't think we should contribute EVERY dark skinned Berber group to SSA ancestry especially Saharan Berbers like the Sanhaja... Just my opinion.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
The problem in north Africa since the saharan wet phase is that it has been sparsely populated. This makes it very easy for "outside" groups to have a bigger impact on local populations than if the area was originally more densely populated. Not only that, but you are talking about pockets of HIGHLY MOBILE populations spread over a very large area (the Sahara is larger than the continental United States). Therefore it it very difficult to say precisely what the dominant genetic signature was of any Africans migrating westward from the East bringing Berber languages with them. Distinguishing what genes they originally had starting in the East and then what genes they picked up as they moved west and interacted with other population remnants such as those of the central Sahara responsible for the black mummies there, followed by what other immigrants introduced during the Roman and Islamic era is difficult.

Well it is difficult if you rely on the biased sampling as found in modern day scholarship. The only way to get a better picture of this is to sample more of the scattered populations across the Sahara not simply those on the extreme coasts and certain populations Far away in "sub Saharan" Africa. All the various small population centers from Southern Tunisia into the Ahoggar mountains and regions into Northern Mali, Chad, Niger, Mauritania, Sudan and so forth would have to be Sampled. But that kind of sample data set has yet to be captured.

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I specifically want to know about black amazigh populations in Morocco and what there DNA tells us. If we listen to the stories of the Z'nega which a lot of these people come from, then they would have come from Northern Senegal and Southern Mauritania originally. My question is, what does the DNA of these black Amazigh populations tell us? are there even such studies?

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There has never been a question of the relationship between black Moroccans and populations to the South. The issue that has often come up however has been whether they represent "original" Moroccan Berber populations or the result of slave trading. Not to mention the discussion of historic Berber groups like the Almoravids always includes Africans from the south. So we know the relationship is there but there are no DNA studies specific to black Moroccan Berbers that I know of.

My response pointed out my opinion on the issue of unraveling the 'black' ancestry of the original Berbers in general using DNA. This includes the genetic impact of various populations involved as the original Berber speaking populations moved East and determining which populations were involved and their ancestries ("Eurasian", "Saharan", "West African", "Sahelian","East African"). My personal opinion is that in the Sahel belt there have always been populations moving East and West across Africa, as the Peuhl, Fulani and other groups still do to this day. So we know that Africans have been highly mobile since the beginning and require no "Eurasian" immigrants to provide the impetus for such movements. Meaning even if you isolate and separate any "Eurasian" mixture, there is going to be an issue identifying the various lineages and what populations contributed over time among highly mobile populations moving both east to west and north to south in and just below the Sahara among pockets of populations left since the last wet phase.

Of course there will always be the Eurpeans who misinterperet, twist and distort the data, such as claiming populations similar to this Peuhl woman are "Caucasoid":


http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-photo-made-available-30-july-2005-of-amina-dogue-from-the-peuhl-96049842.html

---

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Hence I am very interested to know about their (Black Amazigh) DNA, and how it clusters with other African groups.

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Why are you still asking this. I and Ish Gebor have posted the DNA.
The distinctively berber Y DNA is E-M81 aka E3 aka E1b1b1b that is believed to have derived from E-M35, East Africa
The LIbyan Tuareg have the highest frequencies of mtDNA H in the world, 65% but at low diversity.
Haplogroup H is the most common mtDNA in Europe and is considered Near Eastern origin, possibly Anatolia but it was found in 12,000year old remains in Taforalt Morocco. However the Iberomaurusian population it was found in have very cold adapted limbs that are in the range of arctic people.


In antiquity, the Tuareg moved southward from the Tafilalt,the largest oasis in Morocco, into the Sahel under the Tuareg founding queen Tin Hinan, who is believed to have lived between the 4th and 5th century.The matriarch's 1,500 year old monumental tomb is located in the Sahara at Abalessa in the Hoggar Mountains of southern Algeria. Vestiges of an inscription in Tifinagh, the Tuareg's traditional Libyco-Berber writing script, have been found on one of the ancient sepulchre's walls


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_people#cite_note-Pereira2010-108

According to mtDNA analysis by Ottoni et al. (2010), the Tuareg inhabiting the Fezzan region in Libya predominantly carry the H1 haplogroup (61%). This is the highest global frequency found so far of the maternal clade. The haplogroup peaks among Berber populations, and is thought to have arrived from the Iberian Peninsula during the Holocene. The remaining Libyan Tuareg mainly belong to two other West Eurasian mtDNA lineages, M1 and V.[107] M1 is today most common among other Afro-Asiatic speakers inhabiting East Africa, and is believed to have arrived on the continent along with the U6 haplogroup around 40,000 years ago.[108]

Pereira et al. (2010) observed greater matrilineal heterogeneity among the Tuareg inhabiting more southerly areas in the Sahel. The Tuareg in the Gossi environs in Mali largely bear the H1 haplogroup (52%), with the M1 lineage (19%) and various Sub-Saharan L2 subclades (19%) next most common. Similarly, most of the Tuareg inhabiting Gorom-Gorom in Burkina Faso carry the H1 haplogroup (24%), followed by various L2 subclades (24%), the V lineage (21%), and haplogroup M1 (18%). The Tuareg in the vicinity of Tanout in Maradi Region and westward to villages of Loube and Djibale in Tahoua Region in Niger are different from the other Tuareg populations in that a majority carry Sub-Saharan mtDNA lineages. In fact, the name for these mixed blood Tuareg-Haussa people is "Djibalawaa" named after the village of Djibale in Bouza Department, Tahoua Region of Niger. This points to significant assimilation of local West African females into this community. The most common maternal haplogroups found among the Tanout Tuareg are various L2 subclades (39%), followed by L3 (26%), various L1 sublineages (13%), V (10%), H1 (3%), M1 (3%), U3a (3%), and L0a1a (3%)


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n8/full/ejhg201021a.html

Luísa Pereira; Viktor Černý; María Cerezo; Nuno M Silva; Martin Hájek; Alžběta Vašíková; Martina Kujanová; Radim Brdička; Antonio Salas (17 March 2010).
"Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel"


________________________________





we have gone over all the berber DNA studies there are in this forum
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Lol @ lioness. She keeps trying. Learn to read between the lines.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Lol @ lioness. She keeps trying. Learn to read between the lines.

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I have no idea what you are talking about.
Let us know as clearly explained as possible
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
This is interesting.


Niger Tuareg are various L2 subclades (39%), followed by L3 (26%),
more SSA ancestry than other Tuareg




^ However at the same time these Niger Tuareg like the Siwa of Egypt have a higher frequency of R1b than other berbers who are primarily E-M81

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n8/full/ejhg201021a.html

Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel

Luísa Pereira1,2,

quote:

---

Subjects

The biological samples (buccal swabs) were obtained from three different groups of self-identified Tuareg (90 unrelated individuals in total).

One population sample (n=38) was secured in Burkina Faso around the village Gorom-Gorom (further referred to as TGor).

The second sample (n=31) was taken in the Republic of Niger in the vicinity of Tanut (TTan).

The third sample (n=21) was collected in Mali near Gossi (TGos).


Y chromosome pool in Tuareg

From the 20 branches of the Y chromosome tree, which could be discriminated by the analyses performed, only 7 were observed in our Tuareg population sample (Supplementary Material SM7). Again, from this perspective of Y chromosome diversity, TTan is closer to sub-Saharan populations than the other two Tuareg populations, presenting 5.6% of the old AB lineages and 44.4% of E1b1a, whereas TGor and TGos have, respectively, 16.7 and 9.1% of E1b1a. Curiously, TTan also presents the highest frequency (33.3%) of West Eurasian R1b lineages whereas TGor presents only 5.6% of lineage K* (xO,P), and TGos presents none. There were no instances of the Eurasian J haplogroup in the Tuareg, which is otherwise frequent in North Africa (an average of 20%; see Arredi et al45), and attains the highest frequency in the Middle East (around 50%; see Semino et al)46.
The dominant haplogroup in TGor (77.8%) and TGos (81.8%) is E1b1b1b, which has a much lower frequency in TTan (11.1%). This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from 76% in Morocco to ~10% in Egypt.45 Arredi et al45 dated this haplogroup in North Africa from 2800 to 9800 YBP, associating its expansion with the Neolithic demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.

The weak Eastern African influence in Tuareg is further supported by the M1 haplotypes belonging to the lineages characteristic of the later Mediterranean expansion (M1b and M1a2a) and the presence of very few matches for sub-Saharan L haplotypes with East Africa. The main post-LGM Eurasian and M1a2a lineages found in the Tuareg favour North African origin with migration to its southern location in the Sahel between ~9000 and ~3000 years ago. The upper time limit is defined by the age of the M1a2a, (estimated here from the coding region diversity observed in the three Tuareg, two North and two south Mediterranean individuals at 8000±2400), and by the upper 95% confidence interval for the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16 234 (8800 years ago); the lower limit is defined by the age of the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16 234 (3600 years ago).

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quote:

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Originally posted by the Lioness:
However at the same time

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
[QB]

quote:

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Originally posted by the Lioness:
However at the same time

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Why are you juxtaposing R-V88 and a higher proportion of western L lineages in Tuareg from Niger

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quote:

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Originally posted by the Lioness:
I said R1b

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
[QB]

quote:

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Originally posted by the Lioness:
However at the same time

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Why are you juxtaposing R-V88 and a higher proportion of western L lineages in Tuareg from Niger

---

I said R1b
Do you have a source specifying that the clade is V88 ?


The fact they are npt primarily E3 is surprising to me. One can not make easy generalizations because the berbers, being nomadic have a lot of diverse mixture as per the various groups

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by the Lioness:
However at the same time

---

Why are you juxtaposing R-V88 and a higher proportion of western L lineages in Tuareg from Niger as if we haven't already established that R-V88 generally has a West/Central African affinity today?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Hence I am very interested to know about their (Black Amazigh) DNA, and how it clusters with other African groups.

---

...The LIbyan Tuareg have the highest frequencies of mtDNA H in the world, 65% but at low diversity.

Haplogroup H is the most common mtDNA in Europe and is considered Near Eastern origin, possibly Anatolia but it was found in 12,000year old remains in Taforalt Morocco. However the Iberomaurusian population it was found in have very cold adapted limbs that are in the range of arctic people.


we have gone over all the berber DNA studies there are in this forum

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quote:

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Whereas inferred IBD sharing does not indicate directionality, the North African samples that have highest IBD sharing with Iberian populations also tend to have the lowest proportion of the European cluster in ADMIXTURE (Fig. 1), e.g., Saharawi, Tunisian Berbers, and South Moroccans. For example, the Andalucians share many IBD segments with the Tunisians (Fig. 3), who present extremely minimal levels of European ancestry. This suggests that gene flow occurred from Africa to Europe rather than the other way around.

[...]

Alternative models of gene flow: Migration(s) from the Near East likely have had an effect on genetic diversity between southern and northern Europe (discussed below), but do not appear to explain the gradients of African ancestry in Europe. A model of gene flow from the Near East into both Europe and North Africa, such as a strong demic wave during the Neolithic, could result in shared haplotypes between Europe and North Africa. However, we observe haplotype sharing between Europe and the Near East follows a southeast to southwest gradient, while sharing between Europe and the Maghreb follows the opposite pattern (Fig. 2); this suggests that gene flow from the Near East cannot account for the sharing with North Africa.

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quote:

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Haplogroup H dominates present-day Western European mitochondrial DNA variability (>40%), yet was less common (~19%) among Early Neolithic farmers (~5450 BC) and virtually absent in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.

Here we investigate this major component of the maternal population history of modern Europeans and sequence 39 complete haplogroup H mitochondrial genomes from ancient human remains. We then compare this 'real-time' genetic data with cultural changes taking place between the Early Neolithic (~5450 BC) and Bronze Age (~2200 BC) in Central Europe. Our results reveal that the current diversity and distribution of haplogroup H were largely established by the Mid Neolithic (~4000 BC), but with substantial genetic contributions from subsequent pan-European cultures such as the Bell Beakers expanding out of Iberia in the Late Neolithic (~2800 BC). Dated haplogroup H genomes allow us to reconstruct the recent evolutionary history of haplogroup H and reveal a mutation rate 45% higher than current estimates for human mitochondria.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by the Lioness:
However at the same time

---

Why are you juxtaposing R-V88 and a higher proportion of western L lineages in Tuareg from Niger as if we haven't already established that R-V88 generally has a West/Central African affinity today?

---

So true.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Hence I am very interested to know about their (Black Amazigh) DNA, and how it clusters with other African groups.

---

The remaining Libyan Tuareg mainly belong to two other West Eurasian mtDNA lineages, M1 and V.[107] M1 is today most common among other Afro-Asiatic speakers inhabiting East Africa, and is believed to have arrived on the continent along with the U6 haplogroup around 40,000 years ago.[108]


we have gone over all the berber DNA studies there are in this forum

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Really?



 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the Lioness:
However at the same time

---

Why are you juxtaposing R-V88 and a higher proportion of western L lineages in Tuareg from Niger as if we haven't already established that R-V88 generally has a West/Central African affinity today?

---

So true.

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If that's true show us a source that says Tuareg from Niger have V88

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quote:

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The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than ∼9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago.

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--Luísa Pereira, et al.

Eur J Hum Genet. 2010 Aug; 18(8): 915–923.
Published online 2010 Mar 17. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.21

quote:

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When the linguistic affiliation of the populations from the central Sahel was also taken into account, a clear-cut divide was observed between those speaking Afroasiatic languages (including the Berber-speaking Tuareg, the Semitic Arab Shuwa, and Chadic-speaking populations from northern Cameroon) and the other populations (Mann–Whitney test P=1.4 × 10−3), with Chadic-speaking populations mostly contributing to this difference. It is worth noting that, if the finding of 20% R-V88 chromosomes among the Hausa (Table 1) is representative, this population, encompassing by far more people than all other Chadic speakers,44 also encompasses the highest absolute number of V88 carriers.

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quote:

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Haplogroup A1b. The P114 mutation, which defines hap- logroup A1b according to Karafet et al. [14], had been detected in central-western Africa at very low frequencies (in total, three chromosomes from Cameroon) [16,19].

[...]

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1). Six haplogroup C chromosomes (samples 34–39 in Table S1) were analyzed for the eleven haplogroup C- specific mutations [16] and for SNPs defining branches C1 to C6 in the tree by Karafet et al. [14] (Figure S1). Through this analysis we identified a chromosome from southern Europe as a new deep branch within haplogroup C (C-V20 or C7, Figure S1). Previously, only a few examples of C chromosomes (only defined by the marker RPS4Y711) had been found in southern Europe [32,33]. To improve our knowledge regarding the distribution of haplogroup C in Europe, we surveyed 1965 European subjects for the mutation RPS4Y711 and identified one additional haplogroup C chromosome from southern Europe, which has also been classified as C7 (data not shown). Further studies are needed to establish whether C7 chromosomes are the relics of an ancient European gene pool or the signal of a recent geographical spread from Asia. Two mutations, V248 and V87, which had never been previously described, were found to be specific to haplogroups C2 and C3, respectively (Figure S1). Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

[...]

Supporting Information

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).
(TIF)

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quote:

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To test the robustness of the backbone and the root of current Y chromosome phylogeny, we searched for SNPs that might be informative in this respect. To this aim, a resequencing analysis of a 205.9 kb MSY portion (183.5 kb in the X-degenerate and 22.4 kb in the X-transposed region) was performed for each of seven chromosomes that are representative of clade A (four chromosomes belonging to haplogroups A1a, A1b, A2, and A3), clade B, and clade CT (two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R) (Table S1 available online).

The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

According to Leo Africanus >


____________________________________________

quote:

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The tawnie Moores are divided into five severall
People or Tribes : to wit, the Tribes called Zanhagi,
Musmudi, Zeneti, Hacari and Gumeri.

(13) What Pory translates "tawnie Moores", with deliberate
disregard of Leo's text, and Florianus " Subfusci", is, in the original,
"Affricani bianchi" (white Africans), and " I Bianchi dell* Affrica" (the
whites of Africa), that is, the Berbers, to distinguish them from the
Negroes. The word " Moor", as used by Pory and by all the writers
of his time, and, indeed, subsequently, in a very loose way, is almost
equivalent to Mohammedan. Leo never calls the Arabs "Africans",
they being immigrants from Arabia into Africa, though no doubt well
known as individual settlers and traders long before they invaded
Barbary in A.H. 27 (a.d. 647).

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Yes, the earliest description of Berbers especially along the coast by Europeans is that they are of "tawny" color.

From dictionary.com:

[taw-nee]
Spell Syllables
Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective, tawnier, tawniest.
1.
of a dark yellowish or dull yellowish-brown color.
noun
2.
a shade of brown tinged with yellow; dull yellowish brown.

In other words they're no different in complexion from Khoisan people of southern Africa.



Kabyle Berbers of 'tawny' color






The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.-- from The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890

If one does not consider a tawny complexion as 'black' then so be it. There are some people such as white South Afrikaners who don't consider the Khoisan aboriginals to be 'black' either, but there is no denying that despite their lighter complexions the Khoisan like the aboriginal North Africans do share a close genetic relation to the 'blacks' of Africa.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Tawny Half European/Half African

note the features, note the DNA
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ And what pray-tell does President Obama's phenotype and genetic ancestry have to do with indigenous North Africans, let alone the original Berber speakers??
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Speaking of which, the tawny complexions, the occurrence of epicanthic eye folds as some have pointed out and even the occurrence of incipient steatopygia as pointed out by a few past experts like Louis Dupree, do give a rather Khoisan or "Capoid" expression to indigenous North Africans. This is no doubt why outdated scholars like Coon and their followers like Anglo-Idiot actually believe 'Capoids' were aboriginal to the region.







Although such a topic was covered in this forum on multiple occasions including most recently here.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Is there some point to posting these pictures?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ I made my points loud and clear. That you missed it is not my problem. Is there a point to your posting on President Barrack Obama?? LOL
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
what is the point to posting these pictures? what are you trying to say?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Either you're playing dumb or you really are dumb. The pictures I posted were accompanied with words which you can read for yourself.

Mathilda must not be paying you enough for your work.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:


If one does not consider a tawny complexion as 'black' then so be it. There are some people such as white South Afrikaners who don't consider the Khoisan aboriginals to be 'black' either, but there is no denying that despite their lighter complexions the Khoisan like the aboriginal North Africans do share a close genetic relation to the 'blacks' of Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ And what pray-tell does President Obama's phenotype and genetic ancestry have to do with indigenous North Africans, let alone the original Berber speakers??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Speaking of which, the tawny complexions, the occurrence of epicanthic eye folds as some have pointed out and even the occurrence of incipient steatopygia as pointed out by a few past experts like Louis Dupree, do give a rather Khoisan or "Capoid" expression to indigenous North Africans. This is no doubt why outdated scholars like Coon and their followers like Anglo-Idiot actually believe 'Capoids' were aboriginal to the region.







Although such a topic was covered in this forum on multiple occasions including most recently here.

---

Great post, this shows the obvious unique and local / regional features.

Logically loins ass, is completely irrelevant.






 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Either you're playing dumb or you really are dumb. The pictures I posted were accompanied with words which you can read for yourself.

Mathilda must not be paying you enough for your work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
If one does not consider a tawny complexion as 'black' then so be it. There are some people such as white South Afrikaners who don't consider the Khoisan aboriginals to be 'black' either, but there is no denying that despite their lighter complexions the Khoisan like the aboriginal North Africans do share a close genetic relation to the 'blacks' of Africa.

---

Consigned,





The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 88 Supplemental Data


A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal
Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal
Diversity in Africa


Fulvio Cruciani, Beniamino Trombetta, Andrea Massaia, Giovanni Destro-Bisol, Daniele Sellitto, and Rosaria Scozzari

See, Table S1. Haplogroup Affiliation of the Seven Chromosomes that Were Re-sequenced.

And; Table S5: Populations considered for the mutations defining major clades A1b, A1a and A2-T.


http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2024895359/2044579899/mmc1.pdf









Volume 300, 25 June 2013, Pages 153–170

The Middle Palaeolithic in the Desert

The Middle Stone Age of the Central Sahara: Biogeographical opportunities and technological strategies in later human evolution
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1040618212033848










Successes and failures of human dispersals from North Africa
(2011)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1040618211003612
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Are you trying to say that berbers have the same amount of deep rooted African ancestry that most other "black" Africans do?

Africans are highly diverse so some groups are not that closely related genetically.
E-M181 is sometimes called the berber clade. While it is part of the African E paragroup other Africans do not carry this clade.

Also the Libyan Tuareg have the highest frequencies of haplogroup H in the world and it is the most common haplogroup in most berbers and Europeans
-but is not common in other Africans so one could not say H carriers are closely related in mtDNA to most Africans

Do you think haplogroup H originated in Africa?

I think it's possible.
If so it would re-write the whole history of modern Europeans. They would then be regarded, at least maternally, as an African people, maternally of direct descent from Africans. A whole new migration pattern would have to be theorized, probably that the ancestors of modern Europeans were Africans who came across Gibraltar.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Yep. I changed my views a little bit myself. Compared to the last time I spoke on this subject in 2014:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet in 2014:
Biological Structure
--The proto-Berbers, as a biological entity,
originate in East Africa and have gone extinct.
The available genetic literature shows that
modern day Berber speakers are an amalgam of at
least the following people: Ibero-Maurusians,
Chamla's proto-Mediterraneans (i.e. Iberians),
(Chadic) Wet Sahara Sub-Saharan Africans,
Neolithic Near Easterners, and, finally, Pastoral
Proto-Berbers, with the migrations happening in
that respective order (chronologically speaking).
The order of importance of the autosomal
contributions of these people to the modern day
Berber genepool is probably very similar to this
ordering.

Locus of expansion
The earliest evidence of Berber words exists in
Ancient Egyptian texts. These texts are much
older than the coalescent age of any modern
Berber language. This, therefore, completely
destroys any claim that the Berber language
expanded from the Maghreb or that it originates
from Vandal occupation:

quote:

---

"In addition, Darnell and Manasssa mention the
so-called ‘Hound-Stela’ of the Eleventh Dynasty
ruler Antef II (2118-2069BC) where one of his
basenjis is named Abaikur “meaning ‘hound’ in
Berber, suggesting a southwestern origin for that
particular dog” (p. 81)."

---

link

On the other hand, modern day extant Berber
languages only coalesce to 2-3kya according to
glottochronological work:

quote:

---

"Several scholars have suggested that the level
of diversity inside Berber is similar to that
inside the Germanic or the Romance language
groups. If diversification and time depth were to
correlate in the same way in these European
language groups as in Berber, this would imply a
time depth of about 2000–2500 years only (Louali
and Philippson 2004)."

---

--Dugoujon et al. 2009

This indicates that the earliest Berber languages
to split off from the main stem were spoken in
regions adjacent to the Nile Valley, and that
modern day Berber languages split off later.


Kefi's Taforalt and Afalou samples



Not very much to say here. Slightly less than half
of the samples are identical to CRS. This condition
is diagnostic of mtDNA H lineages, but occasionally,
mtDNA U(xU6) samples are reported which are
identical to CRS in HVS-I. The rest of the
samples only differ from CRS in a couple of
places. This is highly inconsistent with mtDNA L
lineages (which are typically more divergent
from CRS in HVS-I) and this shows in the assigned
haplogroups. When these sampled Taforalt people
were alive 12kya, they themselves were immigrants
from Europe, or they were 2nd, 3rd etc. generation
immigrants in the Maghreb. Fu et al corrected
mtDNA mutation rates shows older estimates for
mtDNA V, which are well in line with the cal age of
the sampled Taforalt remains. While not specifically
tested in Fu et al 2013, it's very likely that
this new corrected mutation rate would stretch the
U5b1b, V, H1 and H3 lineages in modern Berbers
back a bit beyond the ~10kya ages which are
typically assigned to these lineages.

In 2013 Kefi obtained similar results with Afalou
aDNA. Just like the Taforalt HVI-I sequences, they
shifted towards Eurasians:

quote:

---

"Phylogenetic analysis based on mitochondrial
sequences from Mediterranean populations was
performed using Neighbor-Joining algorithm
implemented in MEGA program. mtDNA sequences from
Afalou and Taforalt were classified in Eurasiatic
and North African haplogroups. We noted the absence
of Sub-Saharan haplotypes. Phylogenetic tree
clustered Taforalt with European populations."

---

--Kefi et al 2013

---

I now think E-V257 (which contains M81) has an old (around the time of the LGM) presence in this region. I adopted this view based on certain clues in Trombetta et al 2015 and how this fits with other data.

Another slight alteration is that I now make a distinction between the widely studied Taforalt and Afalou samples vs their ancestors in the region. I still think these specific Taforalt and Afalou samples have a lot of Eurasian ancestry. But I also think their ancestors had that to a lesser degree, being more associated with E-V257, L3k, etc (as opposed to mtDNA H1, H3, V, U5, etc).

E-V257 has all the right features of being old in the Maghreb, as opposed to having just an early/mid holocene presence:

quote:

---

E-V257* individuals in their samples who were E-V257, but not E-M81. A Borana from Kenya, a Marrakesh Berber, a Corsican, a Sardinian, a southern Spaniard and a Cantabrian. As mentioned above, Trombetta et al. 2011 propose that the absence of E-V257* in the Middle East makes a maritime movement from northern Africa to southern Europe the most plausible hypothesis so far to explain its distribution.

---

^But it needs to be confirmed with aDNA from the Maghreb. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Berbers share the same deep rooted clades as Khoisan, I am saying they obviously share clades found in other so-called 'Sub-Saharans'. Which is why attempts to separate Berbers from Africans south of the Sahara are futile. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Berbers share the same deep rooted clades as Khoisan, I am saying they obviously share clades found in other so-called 'Sub-Saharans'. Which is why attempts to separate Berbers from Africans south of the Sahara are futile.

---

Th most common mtDNA of berbers is haplogroup H.

Do you think haplogroup H originated in Africa?

And if haplogroup H did originate in Africa wouldn't that re-write the whole history of modern Europeans? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Th most common mtDNA of berbers is haplogroup H.

Do you think haplogroup H originated in Africa?

And if haplogroup H did originate in Africa wouldn't that re-write the whole history of modern Europeans?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
No. My only point was that if one were to speculate what the aboriginal populations of the North African Maghreb looked like, they would have some features akin to Khoisan since they were African hunter-gatherers that adapted to a Mediterranean climate the same as the Khoisan hence, the tawny skin color. Though the best evidence should come from fossil remains. The Regueiro et al. study 'From Arabia to Iberia', that you posted here shows that modern Maghrebi populations only represent a very small fraction of the diversity that once existed in the Maghreb. Thus while modern Maghrebis may not best represent how their ancient ancestors let alone predecessors may have looked like, I personally think there are hints here and there.

And while I never implied that Berbers share the same deep rooted clades as Khoisan, I am saying they obviously share clades found in other so-called 'Sub-Saharans'. Which is why attempts to separate Berbers from Africans south of the Sahara are futile.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

And are you saying that ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Khoisan light pigmentation (for example) was no adaptation. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Africa is an environmentally heterogeneous continent. A number of the earliest movements of contemporary humans outside equatorial Africa were into southern Africa. The descendants of some of these early colonizers, the Khoisan (previously known as Hottentots), are still found in southern Africa and have significantly lighter skin than indigenous equatorial Africans do - a clear adaptation to the lower levels of UV radiation that prevail at the southern extremity of the continent.
Interestingly, however, human skin color in southern Africa is not uniform. Populations of Bantu-language speakers who live in southern Africa today are far darker than the Khoisan. We know from the history of this region that Bantu speakers migrated into this region recently-probably within the past 1,000 years-from parts of West Africa near the equator. The skin-color difference between the Khoisan and Bantu speakers such as the Zulu indicates that the length of time that a group has inhabited a particular region is important in understanding why they have the color they do.

---Nina G. Jablonski and George Chaplin, Scientific American

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Khoisan light pigmentation (for example) was no adaptation.

---

what is your reference source for making this claim about Khosians?

____________________

quote:

---

Africa is an environmentally heterogeneous continent. A number of the earliest movements of contemporary humans outside equatorial Africa were into southern Africa. The descendants of some of these early colonizers, the Khoisan (previously known as Hottentots), are still found in southern Africa and have significantly lighter skin than indigenous equatorial Africans do - a clear adaptation to the lower levels of UV radiation that prevail at the southern extremity of the continent.
Interestingly, however, human skin color in southern Africa is not uniform. Populations of Bantu-language speakers who live in southern Africa today are far darker than the Khoisan. We know from the history of this region that Bantu speakers migrated into this region recently-probably within the past 1,000 years-from parts of West Africa near the equator. The skin-color difference between the Khoisan and Bantu speakers such as the Zulu indicates that the length of time that a group has inhabited a particular region is important in understanding why they have the color they do.

---Nina G. Jablonski and George Chaplin, Scientific American

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Khoisan light pigmentation (for example) was no adaptation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Khoisan light pigmentation (for example) was no adaptation. [/qb]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

The most common mtDNA of berbers is haplogroup H.

Do you think haplogroup H originated in Africa?

And if haplogroup H did originate in Africa wouldn't that re-write the whole history of modern Europeans?

---

And the most common Y DNA haplogroup in the European Balkans is haplogroup E.

No. Unlike Xyzman or Winters, I am not in denial of the Eurasian origin of hg H or that Eurasians did have a genetic influence in the Maghreb at such an early time. This does not surprise me the least since migration works both ways i.e. Africans have crossed the Straits of Gibraltar hence the presence of hg L2 clade in the Iberian Peninsula. There was nothing to stop Europeans from crossing the Gibralter Straits into Africa.

LOL Is this the reason for your reference to President Obama??! That Obama is half-white through his mother and that most Berbers carry an alleged European maternal clade, you then presume that modern Berbers have the same phenotype as modern biracial people who are half-white through their mothers?! LMAO

Meanwhile, Obama does not answer the traits I pointed out not to mention the traits observed in fossils.

Lioness logic fails once again.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Yep. I changed my views a little bit myself. Compared to the last time I spoke on this subject in 2014:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet in 2014:
Biological Structure
--The proto-Berbers, as a biological entity,
originate in East Africa and have gone extinct.
The available genetic literature shows that
modern day Berber speakers are an amalgam of at
least the following people: Ibero-Maurusians,
Chamla's proto-Mediterraneans (i.e. Iberians),
(Chadic) Wet Sahara Sub-Saharan Africans,
Neolithic Near Easterners, and, finally, Pastoral
Proto-Berbers, with the migrations happening in
that respective order (chronologically speaking).
The order of importance of the autosomal
contributions of these people to the modern day
Berber genepool is probably very similar to this
ordering.

Locus of expansion
The earliest evidence of Berber words exists in
Ancient Egyptian texts. These texts are much
older than the coalescent age of any modern
Berber language. This, therefore, completely
destroys any claim that the Berber language
expanded from the Maghreb or that it originates
from Vandal occupation:

quote:

---

"In addition, Darnell and Manasssa mention the
so-called ‘Hound-Stela’ of the Eleventh Dynasty
ruler Antef II (2118-2069BC) where one of his
basenjis is named Abaikur “meaning ‘hound’ in
Berber, suggesting a southwestern origin for that
particular dog” (p. 81)."

---

link

On the other hand, modern day extant Berber
languages only coalesce to 2-3kya according to
glottochronological work:

quote:

---

"Several scholars have suggested that the level
of diversity inside Berber is similar to that
inside the Germanic or the Romance language
groups. If diversification and time depth were to
correlate in the same way in these European
language groups as in Berber, this would imply a
time depth of about 2000–2500 years only (Louali
and Philippson 2004)."

---

--Dugoujon et al. 2009

This indicates that the earliest Berber languages
to split off from the main stem were spoken in
regions adjacent to the Nile Valley, and that
modern day Berber languages split off later.


Kefi's Taforalt and Afalou samples



Not very much to say here. Slightly less than half
of the samples are identical to CRS. This condition
is diagnostic of mtDNA H lineages, but occasionally,
mtDNA U(xU6) samples are reported which are
identical to CRS in HVS-I. The rest of the
samples only differ from CRS in a couple of
places. This is highly inconsistent with mtDNA L
lineages (which are typically more divergent
from CRS in HVS-I) and this shows in the assigned
haplogroups. When these sampled Taforalt people
were alive 12kya, they themselves were immigrants
from Europe, or they were 2nd, 3rd etc. generation
immigrants in the Maghreb. Fu et al corrected
mtDNA mutation rates shows older estimates for
mtDNA V, which are well in line with the cal age of
the sampled Taforalt remains. While not specifically
tested in Fu et al 2013, it's very likely that
this new corrected mutation rate would stretch the
U5b1b, V, H1 and H3 lineages in modern Berbers
back a bit beyond the ~10kya ages which are
typically assigned to these lineages.

In 2013 Kefi obtained similar results with Afalou
aDNA. Just like the Taforalt HVI-I sequences, they
shifted towards Eurasians:

quote:

---

"Phylogenetic analysis based on mitochondrial
sequences from Mediterranean populations was
performed using Neighbor-Joining algorithm
implemented in MEGA program. mtDNA sequences from
Afalou and Taforalt were classified in Eurasiatic
and North African haplogroups. We noted the absence
of Sub-Saharan haplotypes. Phylogenetic tree
clustered Taforalt with European populations."

---

--Kefi et al 2013

---

I now think E-V257 (which contains M81) has an old (around the time of the LGM) presence in this region. I adopted this view based on certain clues in Trombetta et al 2015 and how this fits with other data.

Another slight alteration is that I now make a distinction between the widely studied Taforalt and Afalou samples vs their ancestors in the region. I still think these specific Taforalt and Afalou samples have a lot of Eurasian ancestry. But I also think their ancestors had that to a lesser degree, being more associated with E-V257, L3k, etc (as opposed to mtDNA H1, H3, V, U5, etc).

E-V257 has all the right features of being old in the Maghreb, as opposed to having just an early/mid holocene presence:

quote:

---

E-V257* individuals in their samples who were E-V257, but not E-M81. A Borana from Kenya, a Marrakesh Berber, a Corsican, a Sardinian, a southern Spaniard and a Cantabrian. As mentioned above, Trombetta et al. 2011 propose that the absence of E-V257* in the Middle East makes a maritime movement from northern Africa to southern Europe the most plausible hypothesis so far to explain its distribution.

---

^But it needs to be confirmed with aDNA from the Maghreb.

---

Aye... Sorry for the late reply Swenet. Been preparing for my trip to Ethiopia. Anyways I find it interesting you updated some of your views. I remember the first quote from this thread you created.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008868

And I thought your views would not change being as you used multiple studies to support your claims.

Anyways I find E-V257 VERY interesting and need to research on it. Do you personally believe it could have accompanied U6 during the iberomaurusian era? [/QB]

---

I too believe the Afalou and Marusian fossil samples contain specimens of European extraction. Hence, why some of the skeletal bodies show cold adaptation. The same can be said about some of the Natufian samples which show the same thing, however one cannot deny the unmistakable African traits also found in samples of both groups.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Obama does not answer the traits I pointed out not to mention the traits observed in fossils.

---

why would Obama's traits not resemble many berbers?
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Because first and foremost President Obama is NOT Berber and I'm sure has entirely different ancestry both paternally and maybe even maternally from Berbers. (Unless you can prove that he carries H from his mother)

Even if Obama does carry mtDNA H via his mother, that has nothing to do with a person's phenotype which is determined by autosomes. So unless you can prove Obama shares the same genes for phenotype as 'most Berbers' since Berbers themselves vary in phenotype.

So which Berber men does Obama resemble?

















http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uAQpyoFVFKQ/SNe1FjlJT8I/AAAAAAAAAOI/ini7_W1cHWI/s320/MoroccoMen2.jpg

You get the picture (pun intended) don't you? Or maybe not.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Aye... Sorry for the late reply Swenet. Been preparing for my trip to Ethiopia. Anyways I find it interesting you updated some of your views. I remember the first quote from this thread you created.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008868

And I thought your views would not change being as you used multiple studies to support your claims.

Anyways I find E-V257 VERY interesting and need to research on it. Do you personally believe it could have accompanied U6 during the iberomaurusian era? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
What happened was that aspects of Henn et al 2012, Kefi and others debunked some circulating claims about Berbers. Sometimes a debunk is so hard that you can mistake hardness for conclusiveness. In other words, you don't stop to think that the arguments used in the debunk might have to be tweaked as well because you only look at it in the context of the points of contention that dominated the discussion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
In this case, the debunk pertained to the notion that the Taforalt and Afalou samples, and their contributions to northwest Africans, were essentially African. This notion was debunked and it's still debunked. But built into this discussion was a low key assumption that the Taforalt and Afalou samples we had were the quintessential Iberomaurusians. This was assumed because they were treated as a type (the Mechta-Afalou type), suggesting they were a group in their own right with maybe some foreign elements. Since the discussions I was involved in didn't or rarely address this, it took time for it to even occur to me that something was wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
As far as E-V257 being a male companion of U6, we don't know. But we DO know that U6 is much older (more than 10ky older). We already inferred this with modern samples, but now we have aDNA of U6 in Romania. How it got there is interesting because it's relatively close to the African continent and the woman to me differs a bit from many UP Europeans. In my opinion she differs in the Aterian direction. But this could have happened without needing Aterian DNA, so I don't know what to make of this. I'm working on a blogpost but I need more data.

---

quote:

---

"The first modern humans to reach Europe arrived from Africa 35,000 to 40,000 years ago. By about 30,000 years ago, they were widespread throughout the area while their close cousins, the Neanderthals, disappeared. Hardly any of these early hunter-gatherers carried the H haplogroup in their DNA.

---

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130423-european-genetic-history-dna-archaeology-science/

As for your blog. How is it going? If you have time for PMs I have a suggestion I been wanting to tell you.
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
@DJ and Lioness

I can spam this thread with pics of MANY Northwest Africans I see on Instagram that straight up look biracial/black.

In my opinion early Northwest Africans(Berbers) on average to me would have looked like these Tuaregs.




Heck not only do their skin tone resembles the Khoisan but I believe the Romans themselves described the Berbers as "Ethiopian" but lighter than other Ethiopians...
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
^They were makers of the Iberomaurusian industry. But are they genetically the same as the first makers of this industry? That is a part of the discussion of their origins that we never really addressed.

The Taforalt and Afalou samples date to the last stage of the Iberomaurusian (they're just a bit older than the beginning of the Capsian). The first Iberomaurusians lithics are in the 25-20ky range (see Pennarun et al 2012's summary). That's at least 10.000 years when we have no large skeletal sample showing us who the first Iberomaurusians are. In those 10.000 years there could have been a lot of demic diffusion into the coastal areas they inhabited, for all we know. If that happened, we wouldn't even know because we don't have an early Iberomaurusian sample to compare the Afalou and Taforalt samples to.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BBH:
The common date I keep hearing for U6 is actually around 60,000 years ago during the Paleolithic and so it is definitely older than 10k. I'm not sure if E-V257 is even that old.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

The most common mtDNA of berbers is haplogroup H.

Do you think haplogroup H originated in Africa?

And if haplogroup H did originate in Africa wouldn't that re-write the whole history of modern Europeans?

---

And the most common Y DNA haplogroup in the European Balkans is haplogroup E.

No. Unlike Xyzman or Winters, I am not in denial of the Eurasian origin of hg H or that Eurasians did have a genetic influence in the Maghreb at such an early time. This does not surprise me the least since migration works both ways i.e. Africans have crossed the Straits of Gibraltar hence the presence of hg L2 clade in the Iberian Peninsula. There was nothing to stop Europeans from crossing the Gibralter Straits into Africa.

LOL Is this the reason for your reference to President Obama??! That Obama is half-white through his mother and that most Berbers carry an alleged European maternal clade, you then presume that modern Berbers have the same phenotype as modern biracial people who are half-white through their mothers?! LMAO

Meanwhile, Obama does not answer the traits I pointed out not to mention the traits observed in fossils.

Lioness logic fails once again.

---

Rita Ora, UK Balkan girl.





 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

"The first modern humans to reach Europe arrived from Africa 35,000 to 40,000 years ago. By about 30,000 years ago, they were widespread throughout the area while their close cousins, the Neanderthals, disappeared. Hardly any of these early hunter-gatherers carried the H haplogroup in their DNA.

---

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130423-european-genetic-history-dna-archaeology-science/

As for your blog. How is it going? If you have time for PMs I have a suggestion I been wanting to tell you.

---

quote:

---

The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) [data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How- ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re- flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers.

[...]

results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I too believe the Afalou and Marusian fossil samples contain specimens of European extraction. Hence, why some of the skeletal bodies show cold adaptation. The same can be said about some of the Natufian samples which show the same thing, however one cannot deny the unmistakable African traits also found in samples of both groups.

---

quote:

---

"we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.

[...]

A rare exception is the work by Abbé Roche at Contrebandiers Cave (Témara) and at Grotte des Pigeons (Taforalt) where a series of conventional 14C dates was obtained for Iberomaurusian layers (Roche 1976). Until now, his dates of 21,900±400 bp (Gif-2587) and 21,100±400 bp (Gif-2586) for Taforalt have stood as the oldest for Morocco and are broadly comparable to the lowermost Iberomaurusian layer at Tamar Hat, Algeria which produced an age of 20,600±500 bp (MC-822; Saxon et al. 1974).

[...]

In concluding this brief review it can be inferred on present evidence that microlithic bladelet industries of Iberomaurusian type made a fairly sudden appearance in this part of Africa soon after the LGM and not quite as early as previously asserted by Roche. However, it remains to be seen whether the technology originated in the Maghreb or outside this region, and whether its abrupt appearance can be linked to wider patterns of demic diffusion across areas north of the Sahara and/or in response to rapid climatic change (in this case to a rise in humidity following the LGM). We believe that in order to investigate this question more fully similar studies to the one outlined here will need to be conducted in adjacent areas of the Maghreb and in the Saharan south of Morocco."

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quote:

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The research agenda on North African prehistory is dominated by three major debates: (1) the timing and dispersal routes of modern humans into the region, and whether particular types of lithic assemblage are reliable indicators of their presence (Cremaschi et al., 1998, Mercier et al., 2007, Smith et al., 2007, Garcea, 2010a, Garcea, 2011, Pereira et al., 2010, Wengler, 2010, Hublin and McPherron, 2011 and Dibble et al., 2012); (2) how successfully, once established, modern human populations were able to adapt to the major climatic and environmental changes of the Late Pleistocene (Barton et al., 2005, Barton et al., 2007, Bouzouggar et al., 2008 and Garcea, 2010b); and (3) the timing and routes of dispersal of plant and animal domesticates in the Early Holocene and the contexts of their use (i.e., by the existing populations of hunter–gatherers and/or by immigrant agricultural populations) (Barker, 2006, Linstädter, 2008 and Dunne et al., 2012). The deep (∼14 m) sequence excavated by Charles McBurney in the 1950s in the Haua Fteah cave in Cyrenaica, northeast Libya (22°3′5″E/32°53′70″N; Fig. 1) has long been central to all three debates because it spanned the Middle and Late Stone Ages (or Middle and Upper Palaeolithic in European terminology), and the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods. In fact, the sequence remains unique for the whole of North Africa east of the Maghreb (McBurney, 1967). However, though in many respects the excavations and subsequent analyses of material were pioneering for their time, techniques in cave excavation, deep-time radiometric dating and archaeological science more generally have all been transformed in the ensuing sixty years; the context for the renewal of fieldwork at the site in 2007 (Barker et al., 2007, Barker et al., 2008, Barker et al., 2009, Barker et al., 2010 and Barker et al., 2012). Here we report the initial results of a comprehensive dating program of the geological and cultural sequences that has been one of the primary objectives of the new project.

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quote:

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"El Harhoura 2 and El Mnasra caves are located in the region of Témara, on the Atlantic coast of Morocco, which was occupied by human populations since the beginning of the Late Pleistocene (around 120 ka BP) until the Middle Holocene (around 6 ka BP). Recent excavations yielded human and faunal remains, as well as exceptional archaeological objects (Middle, Upper Palaeolithic and Neolithic industries; ceramics; ornaments in Nassarius sp. shells; bone tools; pigments) associated with anthropic structures. The continuous sedimentary sequence of these sites covers the last climatic cycle (from the Eemian interglacial to the present one), and is studied in a renewed context from several points of view: geology, stratigraphy, chronology, cultures, anthropology, palaeontology, taphonomy, and zooarchaeology. Today, there is no equivalent of such regional data for the whole Late Pleistocene in North Africa. The study of small and large faunal remains, associated with chronological data, allowed us to obtain significant data on palaeoenvironments and human/carnivore occupations of the Témara caves. These data are included in a broader view of human occupations and their environmental context throughout North Africa during the Late Pleistocene and Holocene."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
^They were makers of the Iberomaurusian industry. But are they genetically the same as the first makers of this industry? That is a part of the discussion of their origins that we never really addressed.

The Taforalt and Afalou samples date to the last stage of the Iberomaurusian (they're just a bit older than the beginning of the Capsian). The first Iberomaurusians lithics are in the 25-20ky range (see Pennarun et al 2012's summary). That's at least 10.000 years when we have no large skeletal sample showing us who the first Iberomaurusians are. In those 10.000 years there could have been a lot of demic diffusion into the coastal areas they inhabited, for all we know. If that happened, we wouldn't even know because we don't have an early Iberomaurusian sample to compare the Afalou and Taforalt samples to.

quote:

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Originally posted by BBH:
The common date I keep hearing for U6 is actually around 60,000 years ago during the Paleolithic and so it is definitely older than 10k. I'm not sure if E-V257 is even that old.

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E-M35 starts to break up into different branches after 25ky. One of these branches contains the E-V257 mutation. The U6 mutation in Romania, on the other hand, is ~33ky old. That's at least a 10ky old difference in between E-V257 and U6. They still could have been companions during the LGM in Africa, but in that case, something would have brought them together. MtDNA U and E aren't natural companions. So far, the pattern that has emerged from aDNA is that mtDNA U is associated with paternal F, R, I, C, IJK and others, while E is associated with L3.

I'm adding a blogpost in January. I'll let you know when it's done.

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quote:

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European connection? Some features, such as the molars, of these 40,000-year- old specimens from Romania resemble those of earlier North African hominins.

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"The makers of these assemblages can therefore be seen as (1) a group of Homo sapiens predating and/or contemporary to the out-of-Africa exodus of the species, and (2) geographically one of the (if not the) closest from the main gate to Eurasia at the northeastern corner of the African continent. Although Moroccan specimens have been discovered far away from this area, they may provide us with one of the best proxies of the African groups that expanded into Eurasia. Comparing them with the European and Near- Eastern human groups that immediately pre- and post-dated this exodus is therefore of crucial importance in order to elucidate the nature of the populations involved in it"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

The most common mtDNA of berbers is haplogroup H.

Do you think haplogroup H originated in Africa?

And if haplogroup H did originate in Africa wouldn't that re-write the whole history of modern Europeans?

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And the most common Y DNA haplogroup in the European Balkans is haplogroup E.

No. Unlike Xyzman or Winters, I am not in denial of the Eurasian origin of hg H or that Eurasians did have a genetic influence in the Maghreb at such an early time. This does not surprise me the least since migration works both ways i.e. Africans have crossed the Straits of Gibraltar hence the presence of hg L2 clade in the Iberian Peninsula. There was nothing to stop Europeans from crossing the Gibralter Straits into Africa.

LOL Is this the reason for your reference to President Obama??! That Obama is half-white through his mother and that most Berbers carry an alleged European maternal clade, you then presume that modern Berbers have the same phenotype as modern biracial people who are half-white through their mothers?! LMAO

Meanwhile, Obama does not answer the traits I pointed out not to mention the traits observed in fossils.

Lioness logic fails once again.

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Rita Ora, UK Balkan girl.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
@DJ and Lioness

I can spam this thread with pics of MANY Northwest Africans I see on Instagram that straight up look biracial/black.

In my opinion early Northwest Africans(Berbers) on average to me would have looked like these Tuaregs.




Heck not only do their skin tone resembles the Khoisan but I believe the Romans themselves described the Berbers as "Ethiopian" but lighter than other Ethiopians...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
^They were makers of the Iberomaurusian industry. But are they genetically the same as the first makers of this industry? That is a part of the discussion of their origins that we never really addressed.

The Taforalt and Afalou samples date to the last stage of the Iberomaurusian (they're just a bit older than the beginning of the Capsian). The first Iberomaurusians lithics are in the 25-20ky range (see Pennarun et al 2012's summary). That's at least 10.000 years when we have no large skeletal sample showing us who the first Iberomaurusians are. In those 10.000 years there could have been a lot of demic diffusion into the coastal areas they inhabited, for all we know. If that happened, we wouldn't even know because we don't have an early Iberomaurusian sample to compare the Afalou and Taforalt samples to.


E-M35 starts to break up into different branches after 25ky. One of these branches contains the E-V257 mutation. The U6 mutation in Romania, on the other hand, is ~33ky old. That's at least a 10ky old difference in between E-V257 and U6. They still could have been companions during the LGM in Africa, but in that case, something would have brought them together. MtDNA U and E aren't natural companions. So far, the pattern that has emerged from aDNA is that mtDNA U is associated with paternal F, R, I, C, IJK and others, while E is associated with L3.

I'm adding a blogpost in January. I'll let you know when it's done.

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:
There are Toureg in North and West Africa who are jet black. Picking pictures from google doesn't say much. Especially when people have not actually gone to these areas themselves and seen what the people actually look like.

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No offense but you clearly missed the ball for my post. I picked those pictures for a reason. Again I said imo the early Berbers in the Maghreb would have had skin tone similar to Khosian, because both the Khoisan and Berbers of the Maghreb live in Mediterranean climates which would allow the skin tones in the two pics to evolve...


I am clearly aware that there are jet black Tuaregs especially in Niger and Southern Libya.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
The Toubou in Libya are dark skinned and look like other Africans.
Tuareg are much more varied there, many medium dark skinned but partially Arab looking others looking more like other Africans. In antiquity, the Tuareg moved southward from the Tafilalt region in Southern Morocco into the Sahel under the Tuareg founding queen Tin Hinan, who is believed to have lived between the 4th and 5th century.
Tuareg live in 7 different countries and are estimated to have a population of 2.5 million.
The population number for Tuareg in Libya is uncertain wikipedia estimate in 1993 was 20,000.
Morocco only several thousand
However Niger has by far the largest Tuareg population at 2.5 million, Mali, second in line a half million.
Relative to most Libyan Tuareg the Niger Tuareg look more like other Africans, many quite dark, to the south and their maternal DNA reflects this

_______________________

Historically, Bella slaves always constituted the numerically dominant Tuareg ethnic population.

https://culanth.org/fieldsights/328-the-end-of-tuareg-apartheid-in-the-sahel

The End of Tuareg Apartheid in the Sahel
by Kassim Kone

This article is part of the series Mali, March 2012
For centuries, the Tuareg minority in Mali has applied violence or the threat of violence to get what they have wanted from their Black neighbors. French colonialism and independence did not change that. Successive Tuareg rebellions followed independence and each time, the Tuareg requested resources and recent governments have rewarded them. As one of the smallest minority groups, they received the most aid per capita and representation in parliament than any other ethnic group.

The Tuareg rebellion that started in January 2012 was the last straw that likely broke the camel’s back and put an end to Tuareg apartheid in the Sahel. The Tuareg constitute approximately 2% of the Northern Malian population, which in turn is only 10% of the Malian people. For some Tuareg rebels, their being white under a black government constitutes a basis for armed conflict. The current rebellion was different due to exactions that ensued and it served as a Trojan horse for bringing in Mali previously unknown forms of extremism from radical Muslim groups such AQIM, MUJAO, ANSAR DINE. The events the 2012 rebellion unleashed have awakened new consciousness that will change Tuareg-Black relationship forever.

Tuareg society is a highly complex hierarchy of noble warriors, free men, artisan castes and slaves. There never existed a Tuareg kingdom, but Tuareg managed everywhere to establish confederations and forms of Tuareg apartheid in which a minority of Tuareg brutally exploited a majority of Bella slaves. This rigid hierarchy made of an aristocratic warrior class, the imajeren, exploits other freeborn Tuareg, who in turn exploits vassal castes (imrad), the Bella slaves (iklan) being at the very bottom of this system. The only groups not subjected to this cruel exploitation are the Islamic cleric caste (Ineslemen). When the French colonial administration with their “Liberté, Fraternité, Egalité,” ideals attempted to end slavery and initiate the notion of equality in the early 20th century, the Tuareg reaction was that no fraternity could exist between lions, hyenas, jackals, cattle, donkeys, sheep and goats. (Mariko 1984: 36).

Tuareg economy traditionally relied on animal husbandry, enslavement and pillage. The Bella slaves were always integrated in Tuareg socio-economic systems to the point that the system would collapse without these slaves, and with it Tuareg cultural identity. Aristocrats lived outside law, oppressed, exploited and pillaged from other Tuaregs of lower castes. The Bella men took care of farms and animals while their wives worked as maids to their owners. Tuareg nobility raped the women and daughters of lower castes with total impunity (Mariko 1984: 17-18, 29). This institution continued throughout the colonial period and to some extent until the present (Pasteur Ag Infa 2013). Even when slavery became illegal, the black person of any background remains a slave in Tuareg imagination.

Historically, Bella slaves always constituted the numerically dominant Tuareg ethnic population. In 1946 letter to the Governor of the French Sudan in Bamako, the French administrator of Timbuktu informed the governor that the Bella population constituted ¾ of the total population of the Gourma region in the French Sudan (modern Mali). Extrapolating this in 2013 makes the [Tuareg] owners of slaves a slim minority before a peaceful Bella majority (Ag Intazoumé 2013). In the past, when slavery was openly allowed, Bella majority did not count, but in today’s world, it should matter.

Pillage through violence or the threat of violence has traditionally been a Tuareg way of life. Réné Caillé in “Voyage à Tombouctou’’ reports that by the threat of violence with weapons the Tuareg made tributary all their Negro neighbors and stole from them in the most terrible ways (Volume II, pp. 199-200) “They come to Timbuktu to snatch from the people that what they call presents, and that could be more accurately called forced contributions.” (ibid:228). The Tuareg led 2012 rebellion pillaged around 18 billion CFA francs from Northern Malian banks (Daou 2013), and invaluable resources from private people and government facilities.

At independence many Tuareg groups became citizens of Black majority nations in the wider Sahelian region. Tuareg rebellions soon started with claims of autonomy or independence. Amidst government repressions of these movements in Mali the Tuareg have received more government attention than their neighbors (Songhay, Fulani, Arab, Bella, Sorko). Tuareg violent uprisings of the 1990s, 2000s were rewarded with the Malian government’s bending backwards to cajole them. From the killing of government civil servants to the abduction of civilians and regular military personnel to the kidnapping of Europeans for ransom, the more things changed, the more they remained the same for the Tuareg. Not anymore. A leader of the 1990s rebellion once said: "We (Tuareg) are the only representatives of the white race still dominated by blacks" (Marion 1991). This was right before the release of Nelson Mandela and the subsequent true end of Apartheid. As in South Africa, the time for a minority to make claims through the use of violence on the majority as in South Africa should be a thing of the past.

Kassim Koné is Associate Professor of Sociology and Anthropology at State University of New York - Cortland.


Kassim Koné
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Also Tuareg,





http://www.rain4sahara.org/our-work/who-we-help/tuareg


Festival in the Desert - Featuring Traditional Tuareg culture & Samba Touré

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kAMFmHTQK8
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:
this is exactly why DNA does NOT tell the whole story, and why we MUST know history to interpret DNA. In the balkans, and places like Bosnia and even in parts of Russia, Africans had come in, as soldiers and traders with the Turks. I know personally of Bosnians who look like they have African ancestry somewhere way back. It is because of that early African presence. Same way in West Africa I know of Fulanis and other groups who have Europeans in them. Because Europeans had been enslaved in West Africa at one time. Especially in the 1600s and 1700s.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
"Could it be that the first people of the Iberomaurusian industry were those who descend from the Aterian culture?"

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However, as the original chronology of a 20-40 ka Aterian is no longer acceptable and the age of 40 ka indicates the end, not longer the beginning, of the Aterian, this industrial complex is much earlier and cannot be compared with the Sultrean. Furthermore, the natural conditions of the Strait of Gibraltar, with strong currents, must not have encouraged Aterian desert-adapted people to embark on seafaring adventures, as Erlandson (2001) has stated.

[...]

"The other unanswered question is where Aterian peoples and their technology came from. Increasingly evidence indicates that East Africa is like a region to consider for the origin of the Aterian. In fact, the Aterian biracial technology shows some affinities with the Lupemban of East and Central Africa."

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This paper provides a summary of all available numerical ages from contexts of the Moroccan Middle Palaeolithic to Epipalaeolithic and reviews some of the most important sites. Particular attention is paid to the so-called “Aterian”, albeit those so-labeled assemblages fail to show any geographical and chronological pattern. For this reason, this phenomenon should not be considered a distinct culture or techno-complex and is referred to hereinafter as Middle Palaeolithic of Aterian type. Whereas anatomical modern humans (AMH) are present in Northwest Africa from about 160 ka onwards, according to current research some Middle Palaeolithic inventories are more than 200 ka. This confirms that, for this period it is impossible to link human forms with artifact material. Perforated shell beads with traces of ochre documented from 80 ka onwards certainly suggest changes in human behavior.

The transition from Middle to Upper Palaeolithic, here termed Early Upper Palaeolithic – at between 30 and 20 ka – remains the most enigmatic era. However, the still scarce data from this period requires careful and fundamental revision in the frame of any future research. By integrating environmental data in reconstruction of population dynamics, clear correlations become obvious. High resolution data are lacking before 20 ka, and at some sites this period is characterized by the occurrence of sterile layers between Middle Palaeolithic deposits, possibly indicative of shifts in human population. After Heinrich Event 1, there is an enormous increase of data due to the prominent Late Iberomaurusian deposits that contrast strongly from the foregoing accumulations in terms of sedimentological features, fauna and artifact composition. The Younger Dryas shows a remarkable decline of data marking the end of the Palaeolithic. Environmental improvements in the Holocene are associated with an extensive Epipalaeolithic occupation.

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Recent investigations into the origins of symbolism indicate that personal ornaments in the form of perforated marine shell beads were used in the Near East, North Africa, and SubSaharan Africa at least 35 ka earlier than any personal ornaments in Europe.

[...]

The first argues that modern cognition is unique to our species and the consequence of a genetic mutation that took place 50 ka in Africa among anatomically modern humans (AMH) (1).

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quote:

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
^They were makers of the Iberomaurusian industry. But are they genetically the same as the first makers of this industry? That is a part of the discussion of their origins that we never really addressed.

The Taforalt and Afalou samples date to the last stage of the Iberomaurusian (they're just a bit older than the beginning of the Capsian). The first Iberomaurusians lithics are in the 25-20ky range (see Pennarun et al 2012's summary). That's at least 10.000 years when we have no large skeletal sample showing us who the first Iberomaurusians are. In those 10.000 years there could have been a lot of demic diffusion into the coastal areas they inhabited, for all we know. If that happened, we wouldn't even know because we don't have an early Iberomaurusian sample to compare the Afalou and Taforalt samples to.


E-M35 starts to break up into different branches after 25ky. One of these branches contains the E-V257 mutation. The U6 mutation in Romania, on the other hand, is ~33ky old. That's at least a 10ky old difference in between E-V257 and U6. They still could have been companions during the LGM in Africa, but in that case, something would have brought them together. MtDNA U and E aren't natural companions. So far, the pattern that has emerged from aDNA is that mtDNA U is associated with paternal F, R, I, C, IJK and others, while E is associated with L3.

I'm adding a blogpost in January. I'll let you know when it's done.

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Could it be that the first people of the Iberomaurusian industry were those who descend from the Aterian culture? Those people carried a now extinct mtDNA lineage. Around the Paleolithic they were absorbed by those migrating U6 and other Eurasian migrants, where their mtDNA soon disappeared... However their Y-DNA A haplogroups managed to survive but in small frequencies compared to the Eurasian F, R, I, C, IJK... Then according to Erwan Pennarun 2012 those dominate people of the Iberomaurusian were later absorbed by either E-M35 or E-M81 carrying proto-Berbers who were more larger in numbers and advanced. Which is why we see little of those early Eurasian paternal clades that you mentioned in the Maghreb/Northwest Africa. I believe something like this happened. Multiple migrations happening in Northwest Africa with each population replacing the next. In my opinion similar to what happened in Europe and even India.

And I too notice that Taforalt and Afalou samples date from later Iberomurasian era. If U6 is 30k then I personally believe those samples are too young. I don't know... All I know is that more remains need to be found and tested. Anthropology in Africa is lacking compared to Europe and the rest of the world.

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Either you're playing dumb or you really are dumb. The pictures I posted were accompanied with words which you can read for yourself.

Mathilda must not be paying you enough for your work.

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LOL So true, unless this is Mathilda himself. All this spinning around, going in circles method for years is just ridiculous. lol

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
LOL, is Mathida still a thing...? Is she still blogging?

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Either you're playing dumb or you really are dumb. The pictures I posted were accompanied with words which you can read for yourself.

Mathilda must not be paying you enough for your work.

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LOL So true, unless this is Mathilda himself. All this spinning around, going in circles method for years is just ridiculous. lol

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

I appreciate that you took the time to actually read the relevant parts of the paper. I mainly cited it for the dates it gives for the Iberomaurusian, but I see you read more than just that summary.

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Personally, I'm doubtful that E-M81 was brought to the Maghreb by Berber speakers. As I point out here and here, I think that E-M81 was already in the Maghreb before that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
In fact, the paternal line that carries the E-M81 mutation breaks away from E-M35 around the same time when the Iberomaurusian industry starts to spread in the coastal areas of the Maghreb (according to Trombetta et al, this paternal line emerged ~25ky ago). Just like this paternal line is connected to Red Sea coast E-M35, so are Iberomaurusian tools related to some Late Palaeolihtic Nile Valley tools. Also, E-M81 is older than brother clade E-M78. This is interesting because both come from the Nile Valley region, but only E-M78 is dominant there today. This argues against an early or mid-holocene arrival of E-M81 in the Maghreb with the Berber speakers. Because E-M81 is not an important lineage east of Libya (not even among Siwa Berbers), it suggests that the branch that carries the E-M81 mutation left the eastern Sahara early. So, these are some of the indications we have that the specifics of the FIRST Iberomaurusian cultures and the E-Z827/E-V257/E-M81 lineage line up nicely. We just can't prove it conclusively, yet. We need aDNA for this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
To answer your question: the Iberomaurusian has affinities with industries in the Nile Valley. There also is a 15-20ky gap between the Aterian and the Iberomaurusian. This makes an identification of the Iberomaurusians with the Aterians difficult. Although you're right to say that elements of the Aterians seem to have survived and passed some of their DNA to living northwest Africans and West/Central Africans.

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
To answer your question: the Iberomaurusian has affinities with industries in the Nile Valley.

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I never heard the bolded before.

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Also people always assume that the Siwa are not "true Berbers" because their men do not carry E-M81, but now it seems that Maghreb Berbers may not be the "true Berbers." Am I making sense? Have Siwa Berber men ever been detected of carrying E-M35? I know I am asking a complicated question.

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
I never heard the bolded before. Again VERY game changing for me... I always assumed the Nile Valley and Maghreb were always divorced from other another i.e Maghreb clades like U6 and E-M81 hardly being found in the Nile Valley. Anyways all in all are you saying the FIRST people of the Iberomaurusian industry had affinities with those from the Nile Valley, but they were soon absorbed by migrating Eurasians?

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Whilst a techno-typological shift occurred within the Dabban ~33 KYA [19], starker changes in the archaeological record occurred throughout North Africa and Southwest Asia ~23-20 KYA, represented by the widespread appearance of backed bladelet technologies. The appearance of these backed bladelet industries more or less coincides with the timing of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) (~23-18 KYA), including: ~21 KYA in Upper Egypt [20]; ~20 KYA at Haua Fteah with the Oranian [21]; the Iberomaurusian expansion in the Jebel Gharbi ~20 KYA [22]; and the first Iberomaurusian at Tamar Hat in Algeria ~20 KYA [23]. The earliest Iberomaurusian sites in Morocco appear to be only slightly younger ~18 KYA [24]. Whilst backed bladelet production is broadly shared across the different regions of North and East Africa, there was also a level of regional cultural diversity during this period, possibly mirroring a diversification of populations.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

^They were makers of the Iberomaurusian industry. But are they genetically the same as the first makers of this industry? That is a part of the discussion of their origins that we never really addressed.

The Taforalt and Afalou samples date to the last stage of the Iberomaurusian (they're just a bit older than the beginning of the Capsian). The first Iberomaurusians lithics are in the 25-20ky range (see Pennarun et al 2012's summary). That's at least 10.000 years when we have no large skeletal sample showing us who the first Iberomaurusians are. In those 10.000 years there could have been a lot of demic diffusion into the coastal areas they inhabited, for all we know. If that happened, we wouldn't even know because we don't have an early Iberomaurusian sample to compare the Afalou and Taforalt samples to.

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quote:

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quote:

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Originally posted by BBH:
The common date I keep hearing for U6 is actually around 60,000 years ago during the Paleolithic and so it is definitely older than 10k. I'm not sure if E-V257 is even that old.

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E-M35 starts to break up into different branches after 25ky. One of these branches contains the E-V257 mutation. The U6 mutation in Romania, on the other hand, is ~33ky old. That's at least a 10ky old difference in between E-V257 and U6. They still could have been companions during the LGM in Africa, but in that case, something would have brought them together. MtDNA U and E aren't natural companions. So far, the pattern that has emerged from aDNA is that mtDNA U is associated with paternal F, R, I, C, IJK and others, while E is associated with L3.

I'm adding a blogpost in January. I'll let you know when it's done.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

The most common mtDNA of berbers is haplogroup H.

Do you think haplogroup H originated in Africa?

And if haplogroup H did originate in Africa wouldn't that re-write the whole history of modern Europeans?

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And the most common Y DNA haplogroup in the European Balkans is haplogroup E.

No. Unlike Xyzman or Winters, I am not in denial of the Eurasian origin of hg H or that Eurasians did have a genetic influence in the Maghreb at such an early time. This does not surprise me the least since migration works both ways i.e. Africans have crossed the Straits of Gibraltar hence the presence of hg L2 clade in the Iberian Peninsula. There was nothing to stop Europeans from crossing the Gibralter Straits into Africa.

LOL Is this the reason for your reference to President Obama??! That Obama is half-white through his mother and that most Berbers carry an alleged European maternal clade, you then presume that modern Berbers have the same phenotype as modern biracial people who are half-white through their mothers?! LMAO

Meanwhile, Obama does not answer the traits I pointed out not to mention the traits observed in fossils.

Lioness logic fails once again.

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Rita Ora, UK Balkan girl.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I too believe the Afalou and Marusian fossil samples contain specimens of European extraction. Hence, why some of the skeletal bodies show cold adaptation. The same can be said about some of the Natufian samples which show the same thing, however one cannot deny the unmistakable African traits also found in samples of both groups.

---

Dj, what is your opinion on these sources?

quote:

---

"we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.

[...]

A rare exception is the work by Abbé Roche at Contrebandiers Cave (Témara) and at Grotte des Pigeons (Taforalt) where a series of conventional 14C dates was obtained for Iberomaurusian layers (Roche 1976). Until now, his dates of 21,900±400 bp (Gif-2587) and 21,100±400 bp (Gif-2586) for Taforalt have stood as the oldest for Morocco and are broadly comparable to the lowermost Iberomaurusian layer at Tamar Hat, Algeria which produced an age of 20,600±500 bp (MC-822; Saxon et al. 1974).

[...]

In concluding this brief review it can be inferred on present evidence that microlithic bladelet industries of Iberomaurusian type made a fairly sudden appearance in this part of Africa soon after the LGM and not quite as early as previously asserted by Roche. However, it remains to be seen whether the technology originated in the Maghreb or outside this region, and whether its abrupt appearance can be linked to wider patterns of demic diffusion across areas north of the Sahara and/or in response to rapid climatic change (in this case to a rise in humidity following the LGM). We believe that in order to investigate this question more fully similar studies to the one outlined here will need to be conducted in adjacent areas of the Maghreb and in the Saharan south of Morocco."

---

--A. Bouzouggar, et al.

Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
June 2008, Volume 25, Issue 1, pp 3–19

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-008-9023-3

quote:

---

The research agenda on North African prehistory is dominated by three major debates: (1) the timing and dispersal routes of modern humans into the region, and whether particular types of lithic assemblage are reliable indicators of their presence (Cremaschi et al., 1998, Mercier et al., 2007, Smith et al., 2007, Garcea, 2010a, Garcea, 2011, Pereira et al., 2010, Wengler, 2010, Hublin and McPherron, 2011 and Dibble et al., 2012); (2) how successfully, once established, modern human populations were able to adapt to the major climatic and environmental changes of the Late Pleistocene (Barton et al., 2005, Barton et al., 2007, Bouzouggar et al., 2008 and Garcea, 2010b); and (3) the timing and routes of dispersal of plant and animal domesticates in the Early Holocene and the contexts of their use (i.e., by the existing populations of hunter–gatherers and/or by immigrant agricultural populations) (Barker, 2006, Linstädter, 2008 and Dunne et al., 2012). The deep (∼14 m) sequence excavated by Charles McBurney in the 1950s in the Haua Fteah cave in Cyrenaica, northeast Libya (22°3′5″E/32°53′70″N; Fig. 1) has long been central to all three debates because it spanned the Middle and Late Stone Ages (or Middle and Upper Palaeolithic in European terminology), and the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods. In fact, the sequence remains unique for the whole of North Africa east of the Maghreb (McBurney, 1967). However, though in many respects the excavations and subsequent analyses of material were pioneering for their time, techniques in cave excavation, deep-time radiometric dating and archaeological science more generally have all been transformed in the ensuing sixty years; the context for the renewal of fieldwork at the site in 2007 (Barker et al., 2007, Barker et al., 2008, Barker et al., 2009, Barker et al., 2010 and Barker et al., 2012). Here we report the initial results of a comprehensive dating program of the geological and cultural sequences that has been one of the primary objectives of the new project.

---

--Katerina Douka et al.

The chronostratigraphy of the Haua Fteah cave (Cyrenaica, northeast Libya)

Journal of Human Evolution
January 2014, Vol.66:39–63, doi:10.1016/j.jhevol.2013.10.001

quote:

---

"El Harhoura 2 and El Mnasra caves are located in the region of Témara, on the Atlantic coast of Morocco, which was occupied by human populations since the beginning of the Late Pleistocene (around 120 ka BP) until the Middle Holocene (around 6 ka BP). Recent excavations yielded human and faunal remains, as well as exceptional archaeological objects (Middle, Upper Palaeolithic and Neolithic industries; ceramics; ornaments in Nassarius sp. shells; bone tools; pigments) associated with anthropic structures. The continuous sedimentary sequence of these sites covers the last climatic cycle (from the Eemian interglacial to the present one), and is studied in a renewed context from several points of view: geology, stratigraphy, chronology, cultures, anthropology, palaeontology, taphonomy, and zooarchaeology. Today, there is no equivalent of such regional data for the whole Late Pleistocene in North Africa. The study of small and large faunal remains, associated with chronological data, allowed us to obtain significant data on palaeoenvironments and human/carnivore occupations of the Témara caves. These data are included in a broader view of human occupations and their environmental context throughout North Africa during the Late Pleistocene and Holocene."

---

--Emmanuelle Stoetzel et al.

Context of modern human occupations in North Africa: Contribution of the Témara caves data

Quaternary International
23 January 2014, Vol.320:143–161, doi:10.1016/j.quaint.2013.05.017
Northwest African prehistory: Recent work, new results and interpretations

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
As I've always said, there is NOTHING to indicate that the Oranian/Iberomarusian culture originated from anywhere else but Africa

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:
There are Toureg in North and West Africa who are jet black. Picking pictures from google doesn't say much. Especially when people have not actually gone to these areas themselves and seen what the people actually look like.

---

No offense but you clearly missed the ball for my post. I picked those pictures for a reason. Again I said imo the early Berbers in the Maghreb would have had skin tone similar to Khosian, because both the Khoisan and Berbers of the Maghreb live in Mediterranean climates which would allow the skin tones in the two pics to evolve...


I am clearly aware that there are jet black Tuaregs especially in Niger and Southern Libya.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
As I've always said, there is NOTHING to indicate that the Oranian/Iberomarusian culture originated from anywhere else but Africa

---

What about the fact that their mtDNA was haplogroup H and limb proportions similar to arctic peoples?

---

Read my previous posts, you dolt. Just because individuals found in the late phases of the culture show European affinities does not make these individuals the founders of that culture! There are Natufians that show cold adapted traits with European like cranial features but that does not meany they are representative of the founders of the culture let alone represent all Natufians some of whom show tropically adapted African traits.

The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).

Turning to what can be learned about cultural practices and disease, the individuals from Taforalt, the largest sample by far, display little evidence of trauma, though they do suggest a high incidence of infant mortality, with evidence for dental caries, arthritis, and rheumatism among other degenerative conditions. Interestingly, Taforalt also provides one of the oldest known instances of the practice of trepanation, the surgical removal of a portion of the cranium; the patient evidently survived for some time, as there are signs of bone regrowth in the affected area. Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000).

--Lawrence Barham
The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)

I thought all of this was explained to you before, but of course you conveniently forget info that doesn't agree with your agenda.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Just because individuals found in the late phases of the culture show European affinities does not make these individuals the founders of that culture!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Actually all the skeletal remains showing European features i.e. not only cold adapted limbs but cranial traits that align with Europeans come from later phases of the culture. Do you have have any from 20k bp?? If so, please post it!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

The Toubou in Libya are dark skinned and look like other Africans.
Tuareg are much more varied there, many medium dark skinned but partially Arab looking others looking more like other Africans. In antiquity, the Tuareg moved southward from the Tafilalt region in Southern Morocco into the Sahel under the Tuareg founding queen Tin Hinan, who is believed to have lived between the 4th and 5th century.
Tuareg live in 7 different countries and are estimated to have a population of 2.5 million.
The population number for Tuareg in Libya is uncertain wikipedia estimate in 1993 was 20,000.
Morocco only several thousand
However Niger has by far the largest Tuareg population at 2.5 million, Mali, second in line a half million.
Relative to most Libyan Tuareg the Niger Tuareg look more like other Africans, many quite dark, to the south and their maternal DNA reflects this

_______________________

Historically, Bella slaves always constituted the numerically dominant Tuareg ethnic population.

https://culanth.org/fieldsights/328-the-end-of-tuareg-apartheid-in-the-sahel

The End of Tuareg Apartheid in the Sahel
by Kassim Kone

This article is part of the series Mali, March 2012
For centuries, the Tuareg minority in Mali has applied violence or the threat of violence to get what they have wanted from their Black neighbors. French colonialism and independence did not change that. Successive Tuareg rebellions followed independence and each time, the Tuareg requested resources and recent governments have rewarded them. As one of the smallest minority groups, they received the most aid per capita and representation in parliament than any other ethnic group.

The Tuareg rebellion that started in January 2012 was the last straw that likely broke the camel’s back and put an end to Tuareg apartheid in the Sahel. The Tuareg constitute approximately 2% of the Northern Malian population, which in turn is only 10% of the Malian people. For some Tuareg rebels, their being white under a black government constitutes a basis for armed conflict. The current rebellion was different due to exactions that ensued and it served as a Trojan horse for bringing in Mali previously unknown forms of extremism from radical Muslim groups such AQIM, MUJAO, ANSAR DINE. The events the 2012 rebellion unleashed have awakened new consciousness that will change Tuareg-Black relationship forever.

Tuareg society is a highly complex hierarchy of noble warriors, free men, artisan castes and slaves. There never existed a Tuareg kingdom, but Tuareg managed everywhere to establish confederations and forms of Tuareg apartheid in which a minority of Tuareg brutally exploited a majority of Bella slaves. This rigid hierarchy made of an aristocratic warrior class, the imajeren, exploits other freeborn Tuareg, who in turn exploits vassal castes (imrad), the Bella slaves (iklan) being at the very bottom of this system. The only groups not subjected to this cruel exploitation are the Islamic cleric caste (Ineslemen). When the French colonial administration with their “Liberté, Fraternité, Egalité,” ideals attempted to end slavery and initiate the notion of equality in the early 20th century, the Tuareg reaction was that no fraternity could exist between lions, hyenas, jackals, cattle, donkeys, sheep and goats. (Mariko 1984: 36).

Tuareg economy traditionally relied on animal husbandry, enslavement and pillage. The Bella slaves were always integrated in Tuareg socio-economic systems to the point that the system would collapse without these slaves, and with it Tuareg cultural identity. Aristocrats lived outside law, oppressed, exploited and pillaged from other Tuaregs of lower castes. The Bella men took care of farms and animals while their wives worked as maids to their owners. Tuareg nobility raped the women and daughters of lower castes with total impunity (Mariko 1984: 17-18, 29). This institution continued throughout the colonial period and to some extent until the present (Pasteur Ag Infa 2013). Even when slavery became illegal, the black person of any background remains a slave in Tuareg imagination.

Historically, Bella slaves always constituted the numerically dominant Tuareg ethnic population. In 1946 letter to the Governor of the French Sudan in Bamako, the French administrator of Timbuktu informed the governor that the Bella population constituted ¾ of the total population of the Gourma region in the French Sudan (modern Mali). Extrapolating this in 2013 makes the [Tuareg] owners of slaves a slim minority before a peaceful Bella majority (Ag Intazoumé 2013). In the past, when slavery was openly allowed, Bella majority did not count, but in today’s world, it should matter.

Pillage through violence or the threat of violence has traditionally been a Tuareg way of life. Réné Caillé in “Voyage à Tombouctou’’ reports that by the threat of violence with weapons the Tuareg made tributary all their Negro neighbors and stole from them in the most terrible ways (Volume II, pp. 199-200) “They come to Timbuktu to snatch from the people that what they call presents, and that could be more accurately called forced contributions.” (ibid:228). The Tuareg led 2012 rebellion pillaged around 18 billion CFA francs from Northern Malian banks (Daou 2013), and invaluable resources from private people and government facilities.

At independence many Tuareg groups became citizens of Black majority nations in the wider Sahelian region. Tuareg rebellions soon started with claims of autonomy or independence. Amidst government repressions of these movements in Mali the Tuareg have received more government attention than their neighbors (Songhay, Fulani, Arab, Bella, Sorko). Tuareg violent uprisings of the 1990s, 2000s were rewarded with the Malian government’s bending backwards to cajole them. From the killing of government civil servants to the abduction of civilians and regular military personnel to the kidnapping of Europeans for ransom, the more things changed, the more they remained the same for the Tuareg. Not anymore. A leader of the 1990s rebellion once said: "We (Tuareg) are the only representatives of the white race still dominated by blacks" (Marion 1991). This was right before the release of Nelson Mandela and the subsequent true end of Apartheid. As in South Africa, the time for a minority to make claims through the use of violence on the majority as in South Africa should be a thing of the past.

Kassim Koné is Associate Professor of Sociology and Anthropology at State University of New York - Cortland.


Kassim Koné

---

Yes, we veteran posters in this forum have long been aware that Tuareg society is a caste based one years before Mathilda first sent you to subvert this forum! Are you aware that such a caste system exists in other African nomadic societies including the Toubou as well as 'Sub-Saharan' ones like the Oromo and Somali??

You are correct that low or slave caste members should not be used to represent all Tuareg, however newsflash: the majority of pictures posted in this forum are of the upper kel or castes:









By the way, the high castes trace matrilineal descent.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Actually all the skeletal remains showing European features i.e. not only cold adapted limbs but cranial traits that align with Europeans come from later phases of the culture. Do you have have any from 20k bp?? If so, please post it!

---

I am aware of the cold adapted traits associated with Iberomarusian culture and the discontinuity it was with the earlier Aterian period and hiatus but I didn't know about a less cold adapted morphology with the earlier phase of Iberomarusian. Do you have a source on it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Actually all the skeletal remains showing European features i.e. not only cold adapted limbs but cranial traits that align with Europeans come from later phases of the culture. Do you have have any from 20k bp?? If so, please post it! [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Unlike Xyzman or Winters, I am not in denial of the Eurasian origin of hg H or that Eurasians did have a genetic influence in the Maghreb at such an early time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

[QUOTE]

Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990).

--Lawrence Barham
[i]The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)

---

You are using a quote which says that Mechta-Afalou was definitely African in origin and does not correspond to when you said you were " not in denial of the Eurasian origin of hg H or that Eurasians did have a genetic influence in the Maghreb at such an early time."

The Barham quote does not say any phase of the Iberomaurusian was Eurasian. It says they were robust but mentions no Eurasian input. This suggests their robustness was local African (and European looking features you mentioned)
So Barham corresponds to Clyde, xyyman and Ish Gebor but not you. You are using a quote which does not say what you said
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ If you don't understand the simple concept of the Mechta having an African origin while having Eurasian influence, and how one does not contradict the other then I'm sorry but I can't help you!

Your mistress Mathilda should have hired smarter agents if she expects to get anywhere near undermining this forum. LOL
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

The most common mtDNA of berbers is haplogroup H.

Do you think haplogroup H originated in Africa?

And if haplogroup H did originate in Africa wouldn't that re-write the whole history of modern Europeans?

---

And the most common Y DNA haplogroup in the European Balkans is haplogroup E.

No. Unlike Xyzman or Winters, I am not in denial of the Eurasian origin of hg H or that Eurasians did have a genetic influence in the Maghreb at such an early time. This does not surprise me the least since migration works both ways i.e. Africans have crossed the Straits of Gibraltar hence the presence of hg L2 clade in the Iberian Peninsula. There was nothing to stop Europeans from crossing the Gibralter Straits into Africa.

LOL Is this the reason for your reference to President Obama??! That Obama is half-white through his mother and that most Berbers carry an alleged European maternal clade, you then presume that modern Berbers have the same phenotype as modern biracial people who are half-white through their mothers?! LMAO

Meanwhile, Obama does not answer the traits I pointed out not to mention the traits observed in fossils.

Lioness logic fails once again.

---

Rita Ora, UK Balkan girl.

---

And what are you saying? That she looks mixed or "mulatta" also?! LOL One can easily cherry pick individuals who look ethnically ambiguous. There are many 'total' white looking Balkans with blonde hair and blue eyes as well as white Berbers with blonde hair and blue eyes, yet that shouldn't be taken as to exclude the possibility of African ancestry within these individuals.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ If you don't understand the simple concept of the Mechta having an African origin while having Eurasian influence, and how one does not contradict the other then I'm sorry but I can't help you!

Your mistress Mathilda should have hired smarter agents if she expects to get anywhere near undermining this forum. LOL

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

I did not say anything about mixed. But there are indeed many Balkans who do look like Rita Ora, it could be that her treats are actually old to the region that is what I am saying. (I have been there myself). For blonde, blue eyed Berbers, that is a rare phenomenon. You will find them, but on a rare occasion.

A few years back I spoke with a Berber girl, she told me that she has a girl friend with blue eyes and blond hair. She said it's weird she looks a bit Dutch. I didn't say anything in return.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I too believe the Afalou and Marusian fossil samples contain specimens of European extraction. Hence, why some of the skeletal bodies show cold adaptation. The same can be said about some of the Natufian samples which show the same thing, however one cannot deny the unmistakable African traits also found in samples of both groups.

---

Dj, what is your opinion on these sources?

quote:

---

"we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.

[...]

A rare exception is the work by Abbé Roche at Contrebandiers Cave (Témara) and at Grotte des Pigeons (Taforalt) where a series of conventional 14C dates was obtained for Iberomaurusian layers (Roche 1976). Until now, his dates of 21,900±400 bp (Gif-2587) and 21,100±400 bp (Gif-2586) for Taforalt have stood as the oldest for Morocco and are broadly comparable to the lowermost Iberomaurusian layer at Tamar Hat, Algeria which produced an age of 20,600±500 bp (MC-822; Saxon et al. 1974).

[...]

In concluding this brief review it can be inferred on present evidence that microlithic bladelet industries of Iberomaurusian type made a fairly sudden appearance in this part of Africa soon after the LGM and not quite as early as previously asserted by Roche. However, it remains to be seen whether the technology originated in the Maghreb or outside this region, and whether its abrupt appearance can be linked to wider patterns of demic diffusion across areas north of the Sahara and/or in response to rapid climatic change (in this case to a rise in humidity following the LGM). We believe that in order to investigate this question more fully similar studies to the one outlined here will need to be conducted in adjacent areas of the Maghreb and in the Saharan south of Morocco."

---

--A. Bouzouggar, et al.

Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
June 2008, Volume 25, Issue 1, pp 3–19

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-008-9023-3

quote:

---

The research agenda on North African prehistory is dominated by three major debates: (1) the timing and dispersal routes of modern humans into the region, and whether particular types of lithic assemblage are reliable indicators of their presence (Cremaschi et al., 1998, Mercier et al., 2007, Smith et al., 2007, Garcea, 2010a, Garcea, 2011, Pereira et al., 2010, Wengler, 2010, Hublin and McPherron, 2011 and Dibble et al., 2012); (2) how successfully, once established, modern human populations were able to adapt to the major climatic and environmental changes of the Late Pleistocene (Barton et al., 2005, Barton et al., 2007, Bouzouggar et al., 2008 and Garcea, 2010b); and (3) the timing and routes of dispersal of plant and animal domesticates in the Early Holocene and the contexts of their use (i.e., by the existing populations of hunter–gatherers and/or by immigrant agricultural populations) (Barker, 2006, Linstädter, 2008 and Dunne et al., 2012). The deep (∼14 m) sequence excavated by Charles McBurney in the 1950s in the Haua Fteah cave in Cyrenaica, northeast Libya (22°3′5″E/32°53′70″N; Fig. 1) has long been central to all three debates because it spanned the Middle and Late Stone Ages (or Middle and Upper Palaeolithic in European terminology), and the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods. In fact, the sequence remains unique for the whole of North Africa east of the Maghreb (McBurney, 1967). However, though in many respects the excavations and subsequent analyses of material were pioneering for their time, techniques in cave excavation, deep-time radiometric dating and archaeological science more generally have all been transformed in the ensuing sixty years; the context for the renewal of fieldwork at the site in 2007 (Barker et al., 2007, Barker et al., 2008, Barker et al., 2009, Barker et al., 2010 and Barker et al., 2012). Here we report the initial results of a comprehensive dating program of the geological and cultural sequences that has been one of the primary objectives of the new project.

---

--Katerina Douka et al.

The chronostratigraphy of the Haua Fteah cave (Cyrenaica, northeast Libya)

Journal of Human Evolution
January 2014, Vol.66:39–63, doi:10.1016/j.jhevol.2013.10.001

quote:

---

"El Harhoura 2 and El Mnasra caves are located in the region of Témara, on the Atlantic coast of Morocco, which was occupied by human populations since the beginning of the Late Pleistocene (around 120 ka BP) until the Middle Holocene (around 6 ka BP). Recent excavations yielded human and faunal remains, as well as exceptional archaeological objects (Middle, Upper Palaeolithic and Neolithic industries; ceramics; ornaments in Nassarius sp. shells; bone tools; pigments) associated with anthropic structures. The continuous sedimentary sequence of these sites covers the last climatic cycle (from the Eemian interglacial to the present one), and is studied in a renewed context from several points of view: geology, stratigraphy, chronology, cultures, anthropology, palaeontology, taphonomy, and zooarchaeology. Today, there is no equivalent of such regional data for the whole Late Pleistocene in North Africa. The study of small and large faunal remains, associated with chronological data, allowed us to obtain significant data on palaeoenvironments and human/carnivore occupations of the Témara caves. These data are included in a broader view of human occupations and their environmental context throughout North Africa during the Late Pleistocene and Holocene."

---

--Emmanuelle Stoetzel et al.

Context of modern human occupations in North Africa: Contribution of the Témara caves data

Quaternary International
23 January 2014, Vol.320:143–161, doi:10.1016/j.quaint.2013.05.017
Northwest African prehistory: Recent work, new results and interpretations

---

As I've always said, there is NOTHING to indicate that the Oranian/Iberomarusian culture originated from anywhere else but Africa, I merely think that there was some Eurasian genetic influnce via Iberia the same way African genetic influence from the Maghreb entered Iberia.

---

quote:

---

The Later Stone Age (or LSA) is a period in African prehistory that follows the Early Stone Age and Middle Stone Age. All three periods are often confused with the Lower Paleolithic, Middle Paleolithic, and Upper Paleolithic. In the 1920s, it became clear to archaeologists that the existing chronological system of Upper, Middle, and Lower Paleolithic was not a suitable correlate to the prehistoric past in Africa.

The terms Early, Middle, and Later Stone Age were developed to address this issue. Some scholars, however, still view these two chronologies as parallel, arguing that they both represent the development of behavioral modernity.[1] The Later Stone Age is associated with the advent of modern human behavior in Africa, although definitions of this concept and means of studying it are up for debate. The transition from the Middle Stone Age to the Later Stone Age is thought to have occurred first in eastern Africa between 50,000 and 39,000 years ago. It is also thought that Later Stone Age peoples and/or their technologies spread out of Africa over the next several thousand years.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I agree with this assessment as well, though I am curious as to the details of your blogpost.

---

I feel like I'm ahead of a lot of things that I want to record before someone else beats me to it. Then I like to sit back and watch the literature catch up.

I have more than one blogpost draft waiting to be published. But it takes time to put your own ideas down in an organized way along with sources. Sometimes you find more supporting evidence as you're writing things down.

I think you'll be interested in this one that's upcoming.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Right now I'm working on papers focused on the cultural aspects of Nile Valley civilization.
 

---

Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:
this is exactly why DNA does NOT tell the whole story, and why we MUST know history to interpret DNA. In the balkans, and places like Bosnia and even in parts of Russia, Africans had come in, as soldiers and traders with the Turks. I know personally of Bosnians who look like they have African ancestry somewhere way back. It is because of that early African presence. Same way in West Africa I know of Fulanis and other groups who have Europeans in them. Because Europeans had been enslaved in West Africa at one time. Especially in the 1600s and 1700s.

---

I have been to East Europe and Have seen people who look like they had African ancestry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:
There are Toureg in North and West Africa who are jet black. Picking pictures from google doesn't say much. Especially when people have not actually gone to these areas themselves and seen what the people actually look like.

---

No offense but you clearly missed the ball for my post. I picked those pictures for a reason. Again I said imo the early Berbers in the Maghreb would have had skin tone similar to Khosian, because both the Khoisan and Berbers of the Maghreb live in Mediterranean climates which would allow the skin tones in the two pics to evolve...


I am clearly aware that there are jet black Tuaregs especially in Niger and Southern Libya.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:

i have a good friend from Bosnia. He was the one who told me a LOT of Nubians had poured in there during Turkish campaigns in the area. Most were conscripted soldiers. He said a LOT of those dark Bosnians have Nubian ancestry.

---

That makes sense. I have heard of the reverse--both from our old moderator Ausar as well as real Egyptians--that Janissaries (Europeans mainly from the Balkans that were conscripted by the Ottomans) either intermarried or raped Egyptian and Nubian women in the Nile Valley which explains the presence of blonde hair and blue eyes which are even unusual traits in Turks and Arabs.

African Ottoman Soldier

 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I agree with this assessment as well, though I am curious as to the details of your blogpost.

---

I feel like I'm ahead of a lot of things that I want to record before someone else beats me to it. Then I like to sit back and watch the literature catch up.

I have more than one blogpost draft waiting to be published. But it takes time to put your own ideas down in an organized way along with sources. Sometimes you find more supporting evidence as you're writing things down.

I think you'll be interested in this one that's upcoming.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ It's likely those jet-black Tuareg belong to the serf and slave castes. But regardless, even the lighter-skinned ruling castes are not exactly the white or even off-white 'Caucasians' many Euronuts fantasize about. But you are correct that an untold thousands of Europeans especially women were imported into North Africa during the Ummayad Empire.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ It's likely those jet-black Tuareg belong to the serf and slave castes. But regardless, even the lighter-skinned ruling castes are not exactly the white or even off-white 'Caucasians' many Euronuts fantasize about. But you are correct that an untold thousands of Europeans especially women were imported into North Africa during the Ummayad Empire.

---

Depends on the Kel. If you look at the wars the French had with the Tuareg, they documented the various chiefs that they negotiated with and they are almost all very black. I posted some old images of these Tuareg Chiefs on this forum a few years back and don't feel like digging it up.

But here is a postcard from that era:


http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-sultan-of-the-tuareg-veiled-people-of-the-hoggar-mountains-algeria-105345472.html
 

---

Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I too believe the Afalou and Marusian fossil samples contain specimens of European extraction. Hence, why some of the skeletal bodies show cold adaptation. The same can be said about some of the Natufian samples which show the same thing, however one cannot deny the unmistakable African traits also found in samples of both groups.

---

Dj, what is your opinion on these sources?

quote:

---

"we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.

[...]

A rare exception is the work by Abbé Roche at Contrebandiers Cave (Témara) and at Grotte des Pigeons (Taforalt) where a series of conventional 14C dates was obtained for Iberomaurusian layers (Roche 1976). Until now, his dates of 21,900±400 bp (Gif-2587) and 21,100±400 bp (Gif-2586) for Taforalt have stood as the oldest for Morocco and are broadly comparable to the lowermost Iberomaurusian layer at Tamar Hat, Algeria which produced an age of 20,600±500 bp (MC-822; Saxon et al. 1974).

[...]

In concluding this brief review it can be inferred on present evidence that microlithic bladelet industries of Iberomaurusian type made a fairly sudden appearance in this part of Africa soon after the LGM and not quite as early as previously asserted by Roche. However, it remains to be seen whether the technology originated in the Maghreb or outside this region, and whether its abrupt appearance can be linked to wider patterns of demic diffusion across areas north of the Sahara and/or in response to rapid climatic change (in this case to a rise in humidity following the LGM). We believe that in order to investigate this question more fully similar studies to the one outlined here will need to be conducted in adjacent areas of the Maghreb and in the Saharan south of Morocco."

---

--A. Bouzouggar, et al.

Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
June 2008, Volume 25, Issue 1, pp 3–19

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-008-9023-3

quote:

---

The research agenda on North African prehistory is dominated by three major debates: (1) the timing and dispersal routes of modern humans into the region, and whether particular types of lithic assemblage are reliable indicators of their presence (Cremaschi et al., 1998, Mercier et al., 2007, Smith et al., 2007, Garcea, 2010a, Garcea, 2011, Pereira et al., 2010, Wengler, 2010, Hublin and McPherron, 2011 and Dibble et al., 2012); (2) how successfully, once established, modern human populations were able to adapt to the major climatic and environmental changes of the Late Pleistocene (Barton et al., 2005, Barton et al., 2007, Bouzouggar et al., 2008 and Garcea, 2010b); and (3) the timing and routes of dispersal of plant and animal domesticates in the Early Holocene and the contexts of their use (i.e., by the existing populations of hunter–gatherers and/or by immigrant agricultural populations) (Barker, 2006, Linstädter, 2008 and Dunne et al., 2012). The deep (∼14 m) sequence excavated by Charles McBurney in the 1950s in the Haua Fteah cave in Cyrenaica, northeast Libya (22°3′5″E/32°53′70″N; Fig. 1) has long been central to all three debates because it spanned the Middle and Late Stone Ages (or Middle and Upper Palaeolithic in European terminology), and the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods. In fact, the sequence remains unique for the whole of North Africa east of the Maghreb (McBurney, 1967). However, though in many respects the excavations and subsequent analyses of material were pioneering for their time, techniques in cave excavation, deep-time radiometric dating and archaeological science more generally have all been transformed in the ensuing sixty years; the context for the renewal of fieldwork at the site in 2007 (Barker et al., 2007, Barker et al., 2008, Barker et al., 2009, Barker et al., 2010 and Barker et al., 2012). Here we report the initial results of a comprehensive dating program of the geological and cultural sequences that has been one of the primary objectives of the new project.

---

--Katerina Douka et al.

The chronostratigraphy of the Haua Fteah cave (Cyrenaica, northeast Libya)

Journal of Human Evolution
January 2014, Vol.66:39–63, doi:10.1016/j.jhevol.2013.10.001

quote:

---

"El Harhoura 2 and El Mnasra caves are located in the region of Témara, on the Atlantic coast of Morocco, which was occupied by human populations since the beginning of the Late Pleistocene (around 120 ka BP) until the Middle Holocene (around 6 ka BP). Recent excavations yielded human and faunal remains, as well as exceptional archaeological objects (Middle, Upper Palaeolithic and Neolithic industries; ceramics; ornaments in Nassarius sp. shells; bone tools; pigments) associated with anthropic structures. The continuous sedimentary sequence of these sites covers the last climatic cycle (from the Eemian interglacial to the present one), and is studied in a renewed context from several points of view: geology, stratigraphy, chronology, cultures, anthropology, palaeontology, taphonomy, and zooarchaeology. Today, there is no equivalent of such regional data for the whole Late Pleistocene in North Africa. The study of small and large faunal remains, associated with chronological data, allowed us to obtain significant data on palaeoenvironments and human/carnivore occupations of the Témara caves. These data are included in a broader view of human occupations and their environmental context throughout North Africa during the Late Pleistocene and Holocene."

---

--Emmanuelle Stoetzel et al.

Context of modern human occupations in North Africa: Contribution of the Témara caves data

Quaternary International
23 January 2014, Vol.320:143–161, doi:10.1016/j.quaint.2013.05.017
Northwest African prehistory: Recent work, new results and interpretations

---

As I've always said, there is NOTHING to indicate that the Oranian/Iberomarusian culture originated from anywhere else but Africa, I merely think that there was some Eurasian genetic influnce via Iberia the same way African genetic influence from the Maghreb entered Iberia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ It's likely those jet-black Tuareg belong to the serf and slave castes. But regardless, even the lighter-skinned ruling castes are not exactly the white or even off-white 'Caucasians' many Euronuts fantasize about. But you are correct that an untold thousands of Europeans especially women were imported into North Africa during the Ummayad Empire.

---

nope, I personally know black Kel tamashek who are nobles. But this is the difference between actually going to or living in Africa and relying in second hand sources. Now it is a fact a lot of white and tan tamashek are lower class and slaves. Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.i personally know descendants of slave fulani of white ancestry

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.

---

I would like to see a picture of a white Fulani. I didn't know they existed

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I agree with this assessment as well, though I am curious as to the details of your blogpost.

---

I feel like I'm ahead of a lot of things that I want to record before someone else beats me to it. Then I like to sit back and watch the literature catch up.

I have more than one blogpost draft waiting to be published. But it takes time to put your own ideas down in an organized way along with sources. Sometimes you find more supporting evidence as you're writing things down.

I think you'll be interested in this one that's upcoming.

---

You are basically writing books, and that does take time.

Why not truly publish in e-pub?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ It's likely those jet-black Tuareg belong to the serf and slave castes. But regardless, even the lighter-skinned ruling castes are not exactly the white or even off-white 'Caucasians' many Euronuts fantasize about. But you are correct that an untold thousands of Europeans especially women were imported into North Africa during the Ummayad Empire.

---

nope, I personally know black Kel tamashek who are nobles. But this is the difference between actually going to or living in Africa and relying in second hand sources. Now it is a fact a lot of white and tan tamashek are lower class and slaves. Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.i personally know descendants of slave fulani of white ancestry

---

How can we arranged for them to get Genetic testing?
I will work toward providing the kits if you can give me countries of origin.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.

---

I would like to see a picture of a white Fulani. I didn't know they existed

---

Yes, they do. But, again they descend from european slaves.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
So, in North Africa, anything 'white' descends from European slaves, anything 'black' never has any recent admixture from Sub-Saharan Africa and is always indigenous? But when someone offers to test you not only cop out, but refer to genetics papers that debunk you? But then you still want to latch onto unsubstantiated claims (see above) that aren't supported by your own 'sources'.

Is this some kind of joke?
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
No more "I heard", "my friends tell me" and "I've visited Africa, you didn't". We want to see data that doesn't require anyone to take someone else's word for it.

Just like no one has to take my word for it when I post data showing that "pure modern day Maghrebi 'blacks'" is a myth:



Please stop spreading this "light skin is European slaves but dark skin is pure blacks" myth here. It's not going to work.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I agree with this assessment as well, though I am curious as to the details of your blogpost.

---

I feel like I'm ahead of a lot of things that I want to record before someone else beats me to it. Then I like to sit back and watch the literature catch up.

I have more than one blogpost draft waiting to be published. But it takes time to put your own ideas down in an organized way along with sources. Sometimes you find more supporting evidence as you're writing things down.

I think you'll be interested in this one that's upcoming.

---

You are basically writing books, and that does take time.

Why not truly publish in e-pub?

---

Thanks.

Is epub a publishing platform? I always thought it was a file format, like .pdf or .docx.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.

---

I would like to see a picture of a white Fulani. I didn't know they existed

---

Yes, they do. But, again they descend from european slaves.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
No more "I heard", "my friends tell me" and "I've visited Africa, you didn't". We want to see data that doesn't require anyone to take someone else's word for it.

Just like no one has to take my word for it when I post data showing that "pure modern day Maghrebi 'blacks'" is a myth:



Please stop spreading this "light skin is European slaves but dark skin is pure blacks" myth here. It's not going to work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
It is indeed a file format, but it read easy like a book, in ebook platforms.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
How do Yorubas represent other African populations from the Sahel, Sahara or even sub Sahara in distance?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
How do Yorubas represent other African populations from the Sahel, Sahara or even sub Sahara in distance?

---

What about that treemix graph makes you object that Yorubas didn't cause that admixure by themselves? The graph doesn't say that.

---

quote:

---

We use a Bantu-speaking population from Kenya as a source population for this migration, as North African individuals with sub-Saharan ancestry appeared to be closer to the Luhya than the Nigerian Yoruba (Figure 1, Figure 2 and Figure S2). However, there are likely other western African populations genetically similar to Kenyan Bantu-speakers. We do not interpret this association as an explicit migration from Kenya to southern Morocco.

---

—Henn et al 2012
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
The point is they should sample populations in West Africa closer to the Sahara and Sahel who have known historic links via trade and travel with Northern Afrca. Why no samples from Senegal, Mali, Southern Mauritania,Chad, Niger and so forth? Obviously there has always been migration beck and forth between the Sahara and areas to the South.

However, like I mentioned previously, without comprehensive DNA samples across all the populations within the Sahel and to the South you won't get an accurate picture. The populations in the Sahara are too small and scattered and have always been to rely on 'stand in' populations from far off places who have no known historic connection to said populations.

Case in point, what is the relationship between Saharan Tuareg DNA and folks like the Hausa who are well known traders with the Tuareg (the indigo turbans worn by the Tuareg came from Kano)? Not to mention the historical boundaries of the Hausa and Kanem empires straddle the Sahara, Sahel and areas to the south into West Africa.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nigeria-dyers-idUSL2668533920070426

In fact the Chad basin has historically been a key bridge between the Sahara, East Africa, West Africa and Central Africa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CentralEastAfrica1750.png

Chad basin map:


Recall the infamous Henn paper from 2012 "Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations" where they skipped over the Chad area and Sahel region and focused on samples along the coast and then thousands of miles away in Nigeria. This is intentional. They don't want to sample these intermediate populations since the Chad basin is an ancient refuge for populations during the drying Sahara period and a nexus for populations moving into other parts of Africa.


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Genetic_studies_on_Hausa


Tuareg man:


Hausa Durbar:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasho
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
That's like Euronuts saying "we can prove Basal Eurasian is native to Europe if we 'get lucky' and sample some previously unsampled population in southern Europe". That's some open-ended wishful Euronut thinking that can't be falsified and is scientifically useless.

There is no "hidden population" waiting to be discovered among the African groups you mentioned, either, since we already understand these folks' history and genetic composition. In this case, more of the same is not necessarily better. It may be better in terms of fine-tuning, but not in terms of upsetting the entire narrative we have. Of course, if you're talking about people who are extinct today or linguistic isolates and poorly studied, you have a point.

But the Hausa, like all Chadic speakers, mainly have varying proportions of Nilo-Saharan, West African and 'Afroasiatic' affinities. Any deviation from this will simply be due to admixture from a surrounding population. If you're waiting for a Hausa sample with mysterious affinities that can't be explained by admixture you're wasting your time. That's not how this works.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Including new Sahelian samples with known affinities you get, well.. known affinities.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009537

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716304487

quote:

---

excerpts:

Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations

Marc Haber1, , , Massimo Mezzavilla1, 2, Anders Bergström1, Javier Prado-Martinez1, Pille Hallast1, 3, Riyadh Saif-Ali4, Molham Al-Habori4, George Dedoussis5, Eleftheria Zeggini1, Jason Blue-Smith6, 10, R. Spencer Wells7, Yali Xue1, Pierre A. Zalloua8, 9, Chris Tyler-Smith1, ,
Show more
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ajhg.2016.10.012


Understanding human genetic diversity in Africa is important for interpreting the evolution of all humans, yet vast regions in Africa, such as Chad, remain genetically poorly investigated. Here, we use genotype data from 480 samples from Chad, the Near East, and southern Europe, as well as whole-genome sequencing from 19 of them, to show that many populations today derive their genomes from ancient African-Eurasian admixtures. We found evidence of early Eurasian backflow to Africa in people speaking the unclassified isolate Laal language in southern Chad and estimate from linkage-disequilibrium decay that this occurred 4,750–7,200 years ago. It brought to Africa a Y chromosome lineage [R1b-V88] whose closest relatives are widespread in present-day Eurasia; we estimate from sequence data that the Chad R1b-V88 Y chromosomes coalesced 5,700–7,300 years ago. This migration could thus have originated among Near Eastern farmers during the African Humid Period. We also found that the previously documented Eurasian backflow into Africa, which occurred ∼3,000 years ago and was thought to be mostly limited to East Africa, had a more westward impact affecting populations in northern Chad, such as the Toubou, who have 20%–30% Eurasian ancestry today. We observed a decline in heterozygosity in admixed Africans and found that the Eurasian admixture can bias inferences on their coalescent history and confound genetic signals from adaptation and archaic introgression.

________

We detected the earliest Eurasian migrations to Africa in the Laal-speaking people, an isolated language group of fewer than 800 speakers who inhabit southern Chad. We estimate that mixture occurred 4,750–7,200 ya, thus after the Neolithic transition in the Near East, a period characterized by exponential growth in human population size.

_________

The closest related Y chromosome groups today are widespread in Eurasia and have been previously associated with human expansions to Europe.39 and 40 We estimate that the Eurasian R1b lineages initially diverged 7,300–9,400 ya, at the time of the Neolithic expansions. However, we found that the African and Eurasian R1b lineages diverged 17,900–23,000 ya, suggesting that genetic structure was already established between the groups who expanded to Europe and Africa. R1b-V88 was previously found in Central and West Africa and was associated with a mid-Holocene migration of Afro-asiatic speakers through the central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin.8 In the populations we examined, we found R1b in the Toubou and Sara, who speak Nilo-Saharan languages, and also in the Laal people, who speak an unclassified language. This suggests that R1b penetrated Africa independently of the Afro-asiatic language spread or passed to other groups through admixture.

_____________


In addition to the early Eurasian migration to Africa ∼6,000 ya, a second migration ∼3,000 ya affected the Toubou population in northern Chad but had no detectable genetic impact on other Chadian populations. This migration appears to be associated with the previously reported Eurasian backflow into East Africa, given that the source populations and dates of mixture are similar. Occurring at the start of the Iron Age, these migrations could have been facilitated by advances in warfare and transportation technology in the Near East. It is uncertain why the impact of this migration in Chad affected only the Toubou.

---

---

This 20-30% Eurasian ancestry of the Toubou is similar in percentage to African Americans but from different sources and time periods. Numbering about 0.5 million over four countries they are not berbers They speak the Tebu languages, in the Saharan branch of the Nilo-Saharan language family.

As per the Tuareg:




^ The lowest estimate is 2000 in Tunisia, 1987

The population of Tuareg in Chad is lower than that and didn't make it to this chart. In Southern Libya where the Tuareg and Toubou are in military conflict as we can see in the videos in the thread

Libya's Quiet War: The Tuareg of South Libya

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009550

We can see comparatively that the Turaeg look part Eurasian while the Toubou look virtually entirely African.
The two groups have different DNA. The Turaeg have E-M81 and high frequencies of mtDNA Haplogroup H but which has higher diversity outside of Africa and is believed to have originated in Anatolia or Near East and is the most common mtDNA haplgroup in Europe.
The Toubou on the other hand carry mtDNA L. They have a reverse situation. Their Y DNA is R1b.
Often one can predict the phenotype to an extent corresponding to phenotype.
However this branch of R1b called V88 or R1b1c is peculiar in that R1b is all over Europe yet the Africans of the R1b1c clade aka V88 don't resemble Europeans at all.
Perhaps several thousand years ago when a Eurasian back flow of R1b is believed to have occurred they did look more like the mixed looking Libyan Tuareg but since then now look entirely Africa.
The Tuareg are nomadic and thus look more varied. The lower caste Bella are in fact the largest part of the Tuareg population.
The ancestry in the region is very complex and varied.
The most African looking Tuareg are in Niger, the country with by far the largest Tuareg population. If one is looking for "black amazigh" that is a good place to start
 

---

Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.

---

I would like to see a picture of a white Fulani. I didn't know they existed

---

Yes, they do. But, again they descend from european slaves.

---

At what region do they reside?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
No more "I heard", "my friends tell me" and "I've visited Africa, you didn't". We want to see data that doesn't require anyone to take someone else's word for it.

Just like no one has to take my word for it when I post data showing that "pure modern day Maghrebi 'blacks'" is a myth:



Please stop spreading this "light skin is European slaves but dark skin is pure blacks" myth here. It's not going to work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DD'Eden:
we present the genomic analysis of two human individuals from a cave site in the area of present-day Morocco which were directly dated to the Medieval period. The samples were processed in a designated ancient DNA lab and the genomic data obtained shows standard patterns of authentic ancient DNA with low levels of contamination. Both individuals – which represent the first ancient genome sequence data from North Africa – do not exhibit particular genetic affinities to modern North Africans or any other present-day population in published genotype data sets despite relatively extensive data has been produced from many areas of Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Now it is a fact a lot of white and tan tamashek are lower class and slaves. Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.i personally know descendants of slave fulani of white ancestry [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Including new Sahelian samples with known affinities you get, well.. known affinities.

---

quote:

---

Population |# |Dataset
Luhya Kenya |25|HapMap
Yoruba Nigeria |25|HapMap
Morocco North |18|Henn et al. 2012
Morocco South |16|Henn et al. 2012
Moroccan Berbers,
Errachidia |14|Current study
Moroccan Berbers,
Tiznit |14|Current study
Occidental Sahara |18|Henn et al. 2012
Algerian, Alger |19|Henn et al. 2012
Algerian Berbers
Timimoun |20|Current study
Algerian Mozabites |29|HGDP
Tunisia Berbers Chenini |18|Henn et al. 2012
Tunisian Berbers, Sened |17|Current study
Libya |17|Henn et al. 2012
Egypt |19|Henn et al. 2012
Bedouin, Jordan |25|HGDP
Druze, Israel |25|HGDP
Palestinian |25|HGDP
Qatar |25|Hunter-Zinck et al. 2010
Lebanon |24|Haber et al. 2012
Syria |19|Current study
Canary Islands |17|Botigué et al. 2013
Andalusian, Spain |17|Botigué et al. 2013
Galician, Spain |17|Botigué et al. 2013
Basque, Spain |20|Henn et al. 2012
Tuscan, Italy |25|HapMap
European in Utah |25|HapMap

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Case in point, if you sample all the populations in Libya from the coasts all the way down to the Southern regions, you will see a lot more genetic diversity than what is implied by the current sample sets, which tries to fit all Libyans into one population cluster genetically. The problem is all the populations in Libya DON'T fit into the same population cluster. The populations nearer to the coast have more Eurasian ancestry as would be expected and the ones in the South have more African ancestry

---

Doug makes a lot of claims but he never has the genetics data from articles to back it up.




^^ this is the population density of Africa.

Let's look at Brazil for comparison. Native Brazilians comprise less than a half of one percent of the population. Somebody might say " well what about the people deep in the Amazon rainforest, why didn't they include them in the sample?"
You can include them in the sample.
But if talk about the average in Brazil they comprise less than one percent. So it doesn't matter how many remote region you go to and take samples, that population is tiny compared to Europeans and Africans.

People seem to not understand demographics. You can sample every group in all the remote regions of a country, that does not change the compound genetic averages for the country or region.

And
if we look at the YDNA of the berbers in the Maghreb, North Africa it is largely E-M81 and that is not common in Sub Saharan Africa, neither is the most common berber mtDNA, haplogroup H. So there is a notable genetic difference in most berbers.
Are there some berbers who have more SSA lineage, yes. But they are not enough in number to say that North Africans are no different genetically from SSA Africans
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
@Doug

The way I see it, is that there is affinity due to admixture and affinity due to phylogenetic relatedness. The former involves plain admixture, the latter has to do with how long ago ancestral populations split off.

The affinity you're talking about between the Sahel and the Maghreb is affinity due to admixture. The affinity between, say, Afro-Caribbeans and African Americans is phylogenetic affinity. African Americans and Afro Caribbeans don't need admixture to be closely related. They are already closely related whether they intermix or not.

The same doesn't apply to Sahelian populations and Maghrebis. While Sahelian populations like the Tibbou may be related to Berbers, the two genetic components in their genome (mostly 'Nilo-Saharan-like' and 'Berber-like') have no close relationship. The source populations they're made up of are structurally different (i.e. they have completely different allele frequencies and certain patterns in their genomes).

This is why scholars use proxies when they want to understand Berber populations. They're not interested in sampling the entire Sahara. They just want to sample the source populations that can model populations in the Sahara.

You want them to go the extra mile and also sample admixed population in the Sahel that carry ancestry from the source populations. That's just redundant. Why would they want to do that? It would be nice if they did from our point of view, but it's not a requirement for what they set out to do.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ North Africa just like Arabia has gone through periods of wet phases as well as dry phases with populations retreating and returning with the respective phases. Some of the retreating populations were to find refugia in the eastern part of North Africa it was the Nile Valley while in the Maghreb it was moister mountain valleys and coasts. Obviously bottlenecks with founder effect events is what happened as well as later admixture. This is why the best DNA samples should come from ancient remains moreso than modern populations who only represent a fraction of the ancient genome.

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

So? Some of those same Arab authors said Egyptian Cops were 'black'. Presumably, these Copts were more consistently light brown back then, making it easier for Al-Jahiz to generalize this entire community as lighter skinned 'blacks'. Such a description obviously doesn't apply anymore to Copts in general. Can we say based on this description that any dark skinned man in modern Egypt owes his dark skin to those medieval Copts? Of course not. There have been all sort of darker skinned communities in Egypt since then, including recently migrated Nubians. It's no different in the Maghreb.

Those descriptions of medieval and Greek authors don't have a straightforward relevancy to all dark skin in the Maghreb today as modern day Berbers aren't straight forward descendants of the ancient people in the Maghreb.

Someone you describe as a 'black Berber' could have some ancestors with no ties to North Africa. And if you read the same Pliny and other texts you're mentioning, you would know that light skin is more ancient in the Maghreb than Barbary pirates.

So how can you make two convenient checkboxes of 'hybrid partial descendants of European slaves' and 'non hybrid black Berber'?

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
With the exception of the Siwa... the Tuaregs, Zenata and Sanhaja reside in the Maghreb and so I assume that they are sampled in these studies just as much as the Coastal Berbers.

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The Sanhaja/Zenatta are from the Middle Atlas a little bit East of Oazzane, Morocco




^ That is around the orange Saharan labeled area to the right of the light purple Tamazight speakers. They are quite far from the main Tuareg region in blue. Notably the Tuareg are not this huge group in comparison to other berbers but their territories are much more spread out

Comparatively Algeria is also coastal but extends further south and into the interior where the Tuareg are. There are some Zenata there at the oasis town Timimoun, a little closer to the Northern reaches of the Tuareg region

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The inhabitants of Timimoun have varied ancestry and include Zenata Berbers, Haratine Berbers, Cha'amba Arabs and Black Africans, the latter who were brought here with the slave trade that flourished between the 16th and 19th century. Zenata Berbers have an ancient history and were the founders of a number of Berber kingdoms, empires and princedoms in the North African countries of Algeria, Morocco, Libya and Tunisia. 14th century North African historian Ibn Khaldun asserts that the Zenata, Senhaja and Masmuda were the three main branches of Berbers from medieval times. Concentrated in the area he referred to as 'Middle Maghreb' Zenata tribes were both nomadic and sedentary, with the latter building towns and cities where they settled. The Cha'amba, a Sulaymi Arab tribe from Algeria's northern Sahara, were traditionally nomads, but over the past century or so have settled in oasis towns such as Timimoun.

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ZENATA

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0138453

Genetic Heterogeneity in Algerian Human Populations

Asmahan Bekada , Lara R. Arauna , Tahria Deba, Francesc Calafell, Soraya Benhamamouch, David Comas

Published: September 24, 2015


Abstract

The demographic history of human populations in North Africa has been characterized by complex processes of admixture and isolation that have modeled its current gene pool. Diverse genetic ancestral components with different origins (autochthonous, European, Middle Eastern, and sub-Saharan) and genetic heterogeneity in the region have been described. In this complex genetic landscape, Algeria, the largest country in Africa, has been poorly covered, with most of the studies using a single Algerian sample. In order to evaluate the genetic heterogeneity of Algeria, Y-chromosome, mtDNA and autosomal genome-wide makers have been analyzed in several Berber- and Arab-speaking groups. Our results show that the genetic heterogeneity found in Algeria is not correlated with geography or linguistics, challenging the idea of Berber groups being genetically isolated and Arab groups open to gene flow. In addition, we have found that external sources of gene flow into North Africa have been carried more often by females than males, while the North African autochthonous component is more frequent in paternally transmitted genome regions. Our results highlight the different demographic history revealed by different markers and urge to be cautious when deriving general conclusions from partial genomic information or from single samples as representatives of the total population of a region.


The Zenata population, also called Zenet or Iznaten, is an ethnic Berber group in North Africa that is spread from Libya to Morocco. They speak a Berber dialect called Zenet or Zetani, which have some similitude with other Berber dialects. The Zenata individuals sampled are residents in the city of Timimoun, a little oasis village in Adrar Province, in the Gourara region (West Algerian Sahara).

Some sub-Saharan lineages, such as E1b1a-M2, are present at non-negligible frequencies in some samples, such as the Zenata (~23%), whereas some European lineages such as R1-M173 are non-uniformly represented in the present sample set (standard deviation = 16.306). Haplogroup diversity in the Reguibate and the Mozabite was the lowest compared to the other Algerian samples (S2 Table). It is noteworthy that the lowest haplogroup diversity is not related to the current ethnolinguistic affiliation, with some Berber groups such as the Zenata presenting high haplogroup diversities whereas some non-Berber groups such as the Reguibate showing low haplogroup diversity.


Mitochondrial DNA Analysis.

An admixture of Eurasian, North African, and sub-Saharan African mtDNA lineages is found in all Algerian samples (S4 Table and S5 Table) as shown in other North African populations [15]. Sub-Saharan lineages were remarkably frequent in the Zenata (L lineages represent ~65%) compared to the rest of the Algerian samples. In particular, West African lineages (such as L1b, L2a, L2b, L2c1, L3b, L3d) add up to over 40% in the Zenata population, but the East African haplogroups (such as L0, L4b2) do not exceed 3.5% in the Zenata or in any of the other Algerian samples. It is also worth to note that the North African mtDNA haplogroup U6 is absent from the Algiers sample and it is only present in one Zenata individual, while it reaches 8.3–28.2% in other Algerian samples. Finally, M1, another North African lineage, is not found in the Zenata sample.


The Mozabites show the highest North African ancestry, as expected from its position in the PCA, and also contain very low admixture with Middle Eastern, European or sub-Saharan ancestral populations. In contrast, the Zenata individuals present high variation due to differential sub-Saharan admixture, in agreement with the results shown in the PCA. The North African component in this Zenata sample is not as frequent as in the Mozabites (the mean frequencies in the populations are 0.348 and 0.823 respectively), and the former also contain more admixture from the Middle East.


The absence of the maternal North African component in these groups, especially the Zenata Berbers, might be explained by extensive genetic drift and the remarkable high frequency of sub-Saharan lineages (~23% for the Y-chromosome E-M2 haplogroup and ~ 65% of mtDNA L lineages) in the Zenata sample. Our autosomal analysis also shows the close position of the Zenata group to the sub-Saharan populations, and the high variance in this sub-Saharan ancestry suggest that this group has experienced recent gene flow.


Our results demonstrate that Berber groups are not systematically isolated and closed, such as the Zenata who show a different genetic profile compared to the Mozabites, already known to be an isolated Berber group [18]. Their different genetic profiles reflect probably the notion of an open versus close lifestyle towards the outsiders in their so-called isolated populations. Although the Mozabites are descendants of the Zenata Berber group in North Africa, nowadays, the majority of the Mozabites form an isolated Ibadi Muslim group in Algeria. The Ibadi form of Islam evolved from the 7th century Islamic group known as the Kharijites in Irak. They reached Algeria and found a refuge within the isolated group of the Mozabites [51,52]. Although both Zenata and Mozabite Berber groups are geographically close, their different genetic profiles suggest that Mozabites have been more isolated and received less gene flow than the Zenata, who show more admixture not only with sub-Saharan but also with Middle Eastern populations when analyzing autosomal markers. Although the Zenata was the major Berber group in North Africa, their presence in Algeria in present days is restricted to the city of Timimoun, which has been known by its slave population called the Haratines, dark-skinned people, who lived with the Zenata in the ksours of the Gourara (Timimoun region) and learned from them the Berber language and became freed Muslims [53]. On the other hand, Arab groups can be isolated, such as the present example of the Reguibate that shows the lowest paternal haplogroup diversity with the Mozabites. The Reguibate population might have experienced some genetic drift or a genetic founder effect that altered its unilinear lineage frequencies. Indeed, the Reguibate show the highest frequency of the North African component for both Y chromosome (E-M81) and mtDNA (U6a), after the Mozabite.


The overall ancestral proportion of admixture components within populations considering mitochondrial and Y-chromosome haplogroups and autosomal markers reflects a similar history of gene flow at the population level. However, the comparison of the different genetic markers at individual level reflects differences as a result of the difference inheritance models of each marker. This discrepancy can be seen in present example of the Zenata sample where these markers were tested in each individual (S2 Fig). It is clearly shown that there is no correlation between the ancestral component origin of the mitochondrial and the Y-chromosome haplogroup in each individual. For example, some individuals show a typical sub-Saharan maternal haplogroup and a North African paternal one. Autosomal analysis can also provide different distribution of ancestral components that is not related to the origin of the uniparental haplogroups. The analysis of different regions of our genome might provide different insides in the population history of the samples under study, thus allowing a wider combining vision of the ancestral histories stored in each marker.
 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
Aye.. Sorry AGAIN Swenet for this VERY late reply. I'm in Ethiopia right now and as you may have heard wife/internet is banned and so I have to hop from bar to bar to use wife.

Anyways...

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Yes. E-M81 didn't exist yet during the first Iberomaurusian migrations; only its precursors (E-Z827 and E-V257) would have existed. If this paternal line is indeed associated with the first Iberomaurusians, E-M81 has to emerge in the Maghreb. This is because the Iberomaurusian industry is confined to the Maghrebi 'coast' unlike the Aterian and Capsian.

quote:

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Also people always assume that the Siwa are not "true Berbers" because their men do not carry E-M81, but now it seems that Maghreb Berbers may not be the "true Berbers." Am I making sense? Have Siwa Berber men ever been detected of carrying E-M35? I know I am asking a complicated question.

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Yes, they're not like the first Berbers biologically. Ideally, we should make a distinction between Berbers in a biological sense and Berbers in a linguistic sense. Just like we should make a distinction between the first Iberomaurusians and the much later Afalou and Taforalt samples.

The Siwa Berbers have E-M35. For instance, the 2nd highest frequency of E-M35 they have is E-V65. As I've said earlier, this is, in my view, an important marker of the first Berber speakers.

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
I never heard the bolded before. Again VERY game changing for me... I always assumed the Nile Valley and Maghreb were always divorced from other another i.e Maghreb clades like U6 and E-M81 hardly being found in the Nile Valley. Anyways all in all are you saying the FIRST people of the Iberomaurusian industry had affinities with those from the Nile Valley, but they were soon absorbed by migrating Eurasians?

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Pennarun talks about the close relationship between the Iberomaurusian and certain Nile Valley industries in the part of the paper I brought up earlier. I think you may have missed the fact that Egypt is in the list. Note also that they list Upper Egypt first, meaning, the oldest, in their list of dates.

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Whilst a techno-typological shift occurred within the Dabban ~33 KYA [19], starker changes in the archaeological record occurred throughout North Africa and Southwest Asia ~23-20 KYA, represented by the widespread appearance of backed bladelet technologies. The appearance of these backed bladelet industries more or less coincides with the timing of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) (~23-18 KYA), including: ~21 KYA in Upper Egypt [20]; ~20 KYA at Haua Fteah with the Oranian [21]; the Iberomaurusian expansion in the Jebel Gharbi ~20 KYA [22]; and the first Iberomaurusian at Tamar Hat in Algeria ~20 KYA [23]. The earliest Iberomaurusian sites in Morocco appear to be only slightly younger ~18 KYA [24]. Whilst backed bladelet production is broadly shared across the different regions of North and East Africa, there was also a level of regional cultural diversity during this period, possibly mirroring a diversification of populations.

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--Pennarun et al 2012

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.

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I would like to see a picture of a white Fulani. I didn't know they existed

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Yes, they do. But, again they descend from european slaves.

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At what region do they reside?

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Burkina Faso

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Doug

The way I see it, is that there is affinity due to admixture and affinity due to phylogenetic relatedness. The former involves plain admixture, the latter has to do with how long ago ancestral populations split off.

The affinity you're talking about between the Sahel and the Maghreb is affinity due to admixture. The affinity between, say, Afro-Caribbeans and African Americans is phylogenetic affinity. African Americans and Afro Caribbeans don't need admixture to be closely related. They are already closely related whether they intermix or not.

The same doesn't apply to Sahelian populations and Maghrebis. While Sahelian populations like the Tibbou may be related to Berbers, the two genetic components in their genome (mostly 'Nilo-Saharan-like' and 'Berber-like') have no close relationship. The source populations they're made up of are structurally different (i.e. they have completely different allele frequencies and certain patterns in their genomes).

This is why scholars use proxies when they want to understand Berber populations. They're not interested in sampling the entire Sahara. They just want to sample the source populations that can model populations in the Sahara.

You want them to go the extra mile and also sample admixed population in the Sahel that carry ancestry from the source populations. That's just redundant. Why would they want to do that? It would be nice if they did from our point of view, but it's not a requirement for what they set out to do.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:


I've said it before and I'll say it again... the Tuaregs share a common origin with the Beja of my country, and it is from here that the Berber language and people originate from -- meaning that the black Berbers are the original Berbers. The paternal DNA of the non- black Berbers is apparently predominately African but their maternal DNA is Eurasian, so they are derivatives of the original East Africans [paternally] and their maternal ancestors that came to Africa through the Iberian Peninsula.

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Here is a Beja man. Is he 100% African or is he 20% (or more )percent Eurasian like the average African American? We don't know because there are no DNA studies of the Beja. Regardless by looks he is considered black


The Beja aren't the original berbers because they don't speak aberber language.

If someone were to propose that the original berber speakers looked like Beja they could then also argue people who do not look like Beja are not berbers.
What is a berber? There is no hard definition. One might say a berber is a person of mixed African and Eurasian ancestry and who speaks a berber language.
Somebody else might say the original berber speakers were African with no Eurasian admixture but one cannot prove either theory.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987384/

Published online 2010 Mar 17. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.21
PMCID: PMC2987384
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel

Luísa Pereira, 2010

Abstract
The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than ∼9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago. Some of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Tuareg population were involved in the post-Last Glacial Maximum human expansion from Iberian refugia towards both Europe and North Africa. Interestingly, no Near Eastern mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion have been observed in our population sample. On the other hand, the Y chromosome SNPs data show that the paternal lineages can very probably be traced to the Near Eastern Neolithic demic expansion towards North Africa, a period that is otherwise concordant with the above-mentioned mtDNA expansion. The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening ∼10 000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at ∼6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area.


Carrying out biological or genetic investigations of the Tuareg has not always been easy because of their demanding lifestyle and their often negative attitude to the European colonists. Cavalli-Sforza et al,2 whose synthesized study of classical protein and serological markers is well known, noticed a genetic link between the Tuareg and Beja from Eastern Sudan. The fact that the genetic distances between the Tuareg and Berber/North-western Africans were larger than that between the Tuareg and Beja, provides a picture of a common origin and population separation at some point more than 5000 years ago. Interestingly, both people are also pastoralist and speak Afro-Asiatic languages, even if the Beja language (Bedawi), with its four dialects, belongs to the Cushitic branch, whereas Tamasheq belongs to the Berber branch. The fact that these two peoples today speak different languages might be explained either by the Tuareg having acquired the Berber language during their westwards migration, or possibly by the Beja coming under the influence of some Eastern African peoples as language shift is a relatively common phenomenon.


Among the first African mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences were those from data sets3, 4 obtained mostly from Tuareg living in Niger and Nigeria, and which revealed a rather sub-Saharan affinity of their population. More recently, however, a study based on 129 Tuareg samples from two villages of the Libyan Fezzan, stressed a high frequency but concomitant low diversity of the West Eurasian component, bearing only haplogroups H1, V and M1. The sub-Saharan component of the Libyan Tuareg was more diversified but predominantly represented by only two haplogroups (L2a1 and L0a1a). The Tuareg population from Libya was homogenous with very low estimates of haplotype diversity suggesting high genetic drift.5

The above-mentioned studies have thus revealed a dual influence in the genetic make-up of this African people. In this study, we provide new mtDNA and Y chromosome data sets of three unrelated Tuareg groups from three different countries (Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso). At the same time, we try to unravel the questions of their genetic origin, the mutual relationships among their sub-populations as well as possible links to neighbouring populations. The genetic heritage of the Tuareg population is analysed within the context of the West Eurasian versus sub-Saharan contributions to their gene pool.


Relationships with the peoples of Eastern Sudan (the Beja) as pointed to by the study of classical genetic markers2 cannot yet be disregarded here as there is still no mtDNA of the Beja people available for study. However, according to historical reports, the origin of the Beja is more likely to be traceable to the Arabian Peninsula [52] and the West Eurasian mtDNA lineages seen in the Tuareg have a rather Iberian affiliation in the post-LGM, and probably expanded to North Africa first.30, 31 The weak Eastern African influence in Tuareg is further supported by the M1 haplotypes belonging to the lineages characteristic of the later Mediterranean expansion (M1b and M1a2a) and the presence of very few matches for sub-Saharan L haplotypes with East Africa. The main post-LGM Eurasian and M1a2a lineages found in the Tuareg favour North African origin with migration to its southern location in the Sahel between ∼9000 and ∼3000 years ago. The upper time limit is defined by the age of the M1a2a, (estimated here from the coding region diversity observed in the three Tuareg, two North and two south Mediterranean individuals at 8000±2400), and by the upper 95% confidence interval for the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16 234 (8800 years ago); the lower limit is defined by the age of the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16 234 (3600 years ago).

[52] Paul A. A History of the Beja Tribes of the Sudan. London: F. Cass; 1971.


https://books.google.com/books?id=hI_wYwpGahEC&pg=PA149&dq=A+Hist

A History of the Beja Tribes of the Sudan
By A. Paul, 1971

_______________________________________________________

^^^ Looking at this text we see Pereira cites in his article we see has not been accurate to what A. Paul said in his book, A History of the Beja Tribes of the Sudan

He did not say "the origin of the Beja is more likely to be traceable to the Arabian Peninsula"



^ A racist remark here about 'superior culture' yes, however he is saying the Beja of Africa were infiltrated by Arabs and not in great proportions he does not say "the origin of the Beja is Arabia" (paraphrase)
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

The point being that North Africa has always been populated by indigenous African groups, carrying various lineages and therefore, the key is identifying these ancient African populations and then distinguishing those from the immigrants, in this case Eurasians.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Doug

The way I see it, is that there is affinity due to admixture and affinity due to phylogenetic relatedness. The former involves plain admixture, the latter has to do with how long ago ancestral populations split off.

The affinity you're talking about between the Sahel and the Maghreb is affinity due to admixture. The affinity between, say, Afro-Caribbeans and African Americans is phylogenetic affinity. African Americans and Afro Caribbeans don't need admixture to be closely related. They are already closely related whether they intermix or not.

The same doesn't apply to Sahelian populations and Maghrebis. While Sahelian populations like the Tibbou may be related to Berbers, the two genetic components in their genome (mostly 'Nilo-Saharan-like' and 'Berber-like') have no close relationship. The source populations they're made up of are structurally different (i.e. they have completely different allele frequencies and certain patterns in their genomes).

This is why scholars use proxies when they want to understand Berber populations. They're not interested in sampling the entire Sahara. They just want to sample the source populations that can model populations in the Sahara.

You want them to go the extra mile and also sample admixed population in the Sahel that carry ancestry from the source populations. That's just redundant. Why would they want to do that? It would be nice if they did from our point of view, but it's not a requirement for what they set out to do.

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That wasn't my point at all. What I am saying is that if you are going to claim 'mixture' as the basis of modern populations in North Africa, then you should sample ALL the relevant populations to see all the different forms of admixture that exist. The point being that North Africa has always been populated by indigenous African groups, carrying various lineages and therefore, the key is identifying these ancient African populations and then distinguishing those from the immigrants, in this case Eurasians. My using these proxies they always give more weight to those populations with higher amounts of Eurasian admixture which they then go on to conclude has always been a primary component of admixture in ALL North Africans which is absolutely false. And then on top of that they try and extrapolate the ancestry of all other North Africans based on this biased sample set which is again flawed. There is no way you are going to come up with an accurate population history with such flawed sample sets. But that is assuming that the goal is an accurate population history. My argument is they don't want an accurate population history, they just want to promote the idea that North Africans have always been separated from other Africans by Eurasian admixture and by proposing that the founding lineages in North Africa came from Eurasia, which is all false.

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Please give a point by point analysis of how all these newly sequenced Sahelian, Saharan and coastal genomes have improved our understanding of the region in ways that couldn't be done with Henn et al's limited sample set of source populations.

I'm really confused by some of the things you say. For some reason, you seem to think you can squeeze more genetic information out of the various mixtures in the Sahara than the genetic information that is in the source populations. Is it really that hard for you to understand that the ancestry that is in the mixed populations of the Sahara, is the same ancestry that can be found in a handful of strategically picked source populations?


 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Yeah, from what I am hearing from you know it makes sense that E-M81 originated in the Maghreb. It makes too much sense as we(like you even said) don't see a important east to west migration with it. And hell before you informed me I noticed a extreme lack of E-M81 in the Nile Valley which SHOULD have given me clues but I ignored it for some reasons.

And I don't know why I did not see Egypt listed. When get back I'll have more time to discuss with you guys in this thread. [/qb]

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For me, what made me look into this was trombetta et al 2015. They put the age of all E-M35 branches at 25kya with reliable next generation sequencing of E Y chromosomes. I was already looking into the topic of North African lithics for years so I noticed the correspondence in dates immediately.

And there is no need to rush your replies. Take your time and enjoy your vacation.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ North Africa just like Arabia has gone through periods of wet phases as well as dry phases with populations retreating and returning with the respective phases. Some of the retreating populations were to find refugia in the eastern part of North Africa it was the Nile Valley while in the Maghreb it was moister mountain valleys and coasts. Obviously bottlenecks with founder effect events is what happened as well as later admixture. This is why the best DNA samples should come from ancient remains moreso than modern populations who only represent a fraction of the ancient genome.

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

So? Some of those same Arab authors said Egyptian Cops were 'black'. Presumably, these Copts were more consistently light brown back then, making it easier for Al-Jahiz to generalize this entire community as lighter skinned 'blacks'. Such a description obviously doesn't apply anymore to Copts in general. Can we say based on this description that any dark skinned man in modern Egypt owes his dark skin to those medieval Copts? Of course not. There have been all sort of darker skinned communities in Egypt since then, including recently migrated Nubians. It's no different in the Maghreb.

Those descriptions of medieval and Greek authors don't have a straightforward relevancy to all dark skin in the Maghreb today as modern day Berbers aren't straight forward descendants of the ancient people in the Maghreb.

Someone you describe as a 'black Berber' could have some ancestors with no ties to North Africa. And if you read the same Pliny and other texts you're mentioning, you would know that light skin is more ancient in the Maghreb than Barbary pirates.

So how can you make two convenient checkboxes of 'hybrid partial descendants of European slaves' and 'non hybrid black Berber'?

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Precisely the point of my initial post in this thread. How the hell can you tell which populations let alone individuals best represent the original population by 'dark skin' alone.

My point about the Khoisan peoples is that a similar complexion was probably held by the aboriginal peoples of the Maghreb, though we can't say unless DNA for skin color is sequenced. We know from skeletal remains that on average the Oranian/Iberomarusians were similar in appearance to Cromagnon except that they had greater interorbital width, larger nasal openings, and more prognathous. Such features are typically associated with so-called "negroids" but they differed in other measurements from modern day Sub-Saharans which group them closer to upper paleolithic Eurasians like Cromagnon. My guess is that they represent an early split from OOA ancestors like Hofmeyer in Southern Africa.

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Originally posted by beyoku:
Their cold adapted limbs tell a different story.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008558

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As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits.

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
With the exception of the Siwa... the Tuaregs, Zenata and Sanhaja reside in the Maghreb and so I assume that they are sampled in these studies just as much as the Coastal Berbers.

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The Sanhaja/Zenatta are from the Middle Atlas a little bit East of Oazzane, Morocco

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The Kingdom of Morocco

"Sanhaja, Masmoda, and Zenata are the three tribes constituting the Berbers ..."

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Zenata (Berber: Ijenaden) are a major old Berber ethnic group of North Africa. They were an umbrella-group encompassing probably hundreds of large linguistically or genealogically related Berber tribes in the north, center and east of Berber North Africa (excluding the Nile valley of Egypt). Zenata Berbers were the founders of several Berber empires, kingdoms and princedoms in North Africa.

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" ...in the old sources the terms Berber, Sanhaja, Massufa, Lamtuna and Tuareg are often used interchangeably"

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--Marq de Villiers and Sheila Hirtle ( 2009). Timbuktu: The Sahara's Fabled city of Gold, p. 271.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.”

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:


I've said it before and I'll say it again... the Tuaregs share a common origin with the Beja of my country, and it is from here that the Berber language and people originate from -- meaning that the black Berbers are the original Berbers. The paternal DNA of the non- black Berbers is apparently predominately African but their maternal DNA is Eurasian, so they are derivatives of the original East Africans [paternally] and their maternal ancestors that came to Africa through the Iberian Peninsula.

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Here is a Beja man. Is he 100% African or is he 20% (or more )percent Eurasian like the average African American? We don't know because there are no DNA studies of the Beja. Regardless by looks he is considered black


The Beja aren't the original berbers because they don't speak aberber language.

If someone were to propose that the original berber speakers looked like Beja they could then also argue people who do not look like Beja are not berbers.
What is a berber? There is no hard definition. One might say a berber is a person of mixed African and Eurasian ancestry and who speaks a berber language.
Somebody else might say the original berber speakers were African with no Eurasian admixture but one cannot prove either theory.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,: Somebody else might say the original berber speakers were African with no Eurasian admixture but one cannot prove either theory.

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SMH

quote:

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The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan.

[...]


The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening ∼10 000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at ∼6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area.

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
Why does it matter if certain light skin populations have resided in the Maghreb for thousands of years? The insistence that there were no Eurasian genetic input on the North African Coast is laughable as is the insistence that all light-skin Berbers are descendants of white slaves during the Barbary period even though 'white' Libyans were portrayed in ancient Egyptian reliefs. This is almost just as inane as the groundless assertion that all black North Africans are descendants of 'sub-Saharan' slaves.

Berbers are a linguistic group - not an ethnic group and it is the language that we should be focused on in regards to culture.

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What those depictions show at times is indeed light complexion, but "white" no.





Description: Part of a polychrome glazed composition tile bearing a relief representation of the head and upper body of a Libyan prisoner with a pointed beard, side-lock and bound hands (one lost).
British Museum




http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=993027001&objectId=128201&partId=1
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
Their cold adapted limbs tell a different story.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008558 [/qb]

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quote:

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As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits.

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--T. W. HOLLIDAY

Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence [/qb]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
Their cold adapted limbs tell a different story.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008558

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quote:

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As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits.

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--T. W. HOLLIDAY

Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence [/qb]

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Full quote? It doesn't say whether this is about Nile Valley samples or the Afalou sample. [/QB]

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quote:

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Three Jebel Sahaba individuals (117-19, 117-22 and 117-39) fall below the recent sub-Saharan African OLS line, but all the Jebel Sahaba sample fall above the recent North African OLS line.

Note that the Afalou specimens (the grey circles) all fall below the recent sub-Saharan African OLS line, with one individual (no. 28) falling below the recent European regression line and directly on the circumpolar line. Ain Dokhara 1 (the black circle), an early Holocene, Capsian-associated skeleton from Algeria (Balout 1955b), falls just above the recent sub-Saharan African OLS line. All five of the Natufian individuals from El Wad, Israel (the open squares), fall below the recent North African OLS line, and three of the five fall below the recent European regression line.

A similar, if less marked, clinal pattern is evident in the scatter plot of tibial length on femoral head size (Figure 2). Once again, the recent humans show a clinal pattern, with sub-Saharan Africans on average having the longest tibiae and circumpolar individuals possessing the shortest. As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits. As a group, the Jebel Sahaba sample (the stars) tend to have longer tibiae for any given femoral head size than do the other fossil groups. Four of the eight Jebel Sahaba individuals (117-1, 117-6, 117-10 and 117-26) fall above the recent sub-Saharan African OLS line, with a fifth individual (117-19) falling directly on it. Three Jebel Sahaba individuals (117-18, 117-28 and 117-39) fall below the sub-Saharan OLS line. Of these, 117-28 lies above the recent North African OLS line, 117-39 falls directly on it and 117-18 falls just below it. In contrast, none of the Afalou skeletons (the grey circles) falls above the sub-Saharan African line; rather, they tend to cluster about the North African and European lines. Afalou 28 actually falls below the recent circumpolar human regression line for the tibial length: femoral head size relationship. Ain Dokhara 1 (the black circle) falls just above the North African and just below the sub-Saharan African OLS lines.

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
I know now what it's talking about. It's talking about certain variables, not their bodyplan as a whole. I didn't recall their bodyplan as a whole being intermediate, so I had to ask.

Thought I was getting rusty like gramps.


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Swenet what is this guy Marouane Fellaini?
His parents are Moroccan
 

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Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
Lioness

Which populations in Europe are 100% European? Are the Greeks, Spaniards, Italians, Portuguese and all others 100% European? There are no pure populations, so stop pretending that this is a requirement for any African population.

PS: I never argued that the Beja are Berbers; I argued that [according to experts] the Berber language originates in Northeast Africa and that the Tuaregs and Beja share a common origin.
 

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Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
I typed in Jebel Sahaba and these absurd articles came out.

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/saharan-remains-may-be-evidence-of-first-race-war-13000-years-ago-9603632.html

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/worlds-first-race-war-revealed-13000-year-old-skeletons-1456584

Since when are people in North Sudan "Sub-Saharan"? And since when were the people in Southern Egypt "Levantine/European"?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
: I never argued that the Beja are Berbers; I argued that [according to experts] the Berber language originates in Northeast Africa and that the Tuaregs and Beja share a common origin.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:


I've said it before and I'll say it again... the Tuaregs share a common origin with the Beja of my country, and it is from here that the Berber language and people originate from -- meaning that the black Berbers are the original Berbers.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:


Now, answer my earlier question? Which group of Europeans are 100% European?

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
I typed in Jebel Sahaba and these absurd articles came out.

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/saharan-remains-may-be-evidence-of-first-race-war-13000-years-ago-9603632.html

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/worlds-first-race-war-revealed-13000-year-old-skeletons-1456584

Since when are people in North Sudan "Sub-Saharan"? And since when were the people in Southern Egypt "Levantine/European"?

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quote:

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"I suspect there was no outside enemy, these were tribes mounting regular and ferocious raids amongst themselves for scarce resources," curator Renee Friedman said. "Nobody was spared: there were many women and children among the dead, a very unusual composition for any cemetery, and almost half bore the marks of violent death. Many more may have died of flesh wounds which left no marks."

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
: I never argued that the Beja are Berbers; I argued that [according to experts] the Berber language originates in Northeast Africa and that the Tuaregs and Beja share a common origin.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:


I've said it before and I'll say it again... the Tuaregs share a common origin with the Beja of my country, and it is from here that the Berber language and people originate from -- meaning that the black Berbers are the original Berbers.

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where is your evidence that berber language originates in sudan?

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The proto of the phylum arose at the Sudan.




 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


Swenet what is this guy Marouane Fellaini?
His parents are Moroccan

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He is a Moroccan Berber with origins at Tangier. And why you had to show his ex girlfriend Lara Binet subliminally, is beyond me.



 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
Lioness

You really have to learn to read what others are saying instead of engaging in distortion, in your usual style. Did I say that the Berber language specifically originated in Sudan? I said that "the Berber language originates in Northeast Africa". That's what I said. I also said that the Tuareg and Beja share a common origin -- a position held by experts.

Now, answer my earlier question? Which group of Europeans are 100% European?

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:


Now, answer my earlier question? Which group of Europeans are 100% European?

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I haven't studied the cracker that deep so I don't know where his purest folk reside, probably some blond haired niggas in Norway

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
Lioness


Now, answer my earlier question? Which group of Europeans are 100% European?

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It was a typical knee jerk response.

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:


Now, answer my earlier question? Which group of Europeans are 100% European?

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I haven't studied the cracker that deep so I don't know where his purest folk reside, probably some blond haired niggas in Norway

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Typical stupid sarcastic response when lacking knowledge.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

Swenet what is this guy Marouane Fellaini?
His parents are Moroccan

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He is a Moroccan Berber with origins at Tangier. And why you had to show his ex girlfriend Lara Binet subliminally, is beyond me.

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This is a good frontal view of him, no silly expression. His complexion here is nearly of the girl here, a tiny bit darker.
You said he wasn't white. Why is he not white? Is it the hair?
He probably does have some African in him though.
I dont go by that one drop makes you black thing.
Look at this guy. He's whiter than the white Fulani of Burkina Faso. No doubt Africans would call this guy white
 

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Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/figure/10.1080/24701394.2016.1258406?scroll=top&needAccess=true


Let's see how y'all clowns are going to duck and dodge these results. This is what happens when you ignore data in favor of ideology.


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
[QB] http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/figure/10.1080/24701394.2016.1258406?scroll=top&needAccess=true

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^abstract from above link:

On the origin of Iberomaurusians: new data based on ancient mitochondrial DNA and phylogenetic analysis of Afalou and Taforalt populations
Rym Kefi, Meriem Hechmi, Chokri Naouali, Haifa Jmel, Sana Hsouna, Eric Bouzaid, show all
Pages 1-11 | Received 17 Sep 2016, Accepted 04 Nov 2016, Published online: 30 Dec 2016

Abstract

The Western North African population was characterized by the presence of Iberomaurusian civilization at the Epiplaeolithic period (around 20,000 years before present (YBP) to 10,000 YBP). The origin of this population is still not clear: they may come from Europe, Near East, sub-Saharan Africa or they could have evolved in situ in North Africa. With the aim to contribute to a better knowledge of the settlement of North Africa we analysed the mitochondrial DNA extracted from Iberomaurusian skeletons exhumed from the archaeological site of Afalou (AFA) (15,000–11,000 YBP) in Algeria and from the archaeological site of Taforalt (TAF) (23,000–10,800 YBP) in Morocco. Then, we carried out a phylogenetic analysis relating these Iberomaurusians to 61 current Mediterranean populations.

The genetic structure of TAF and AFA specimens contains only North African and Eurasian maternal lineages. These finding demonstrate the presence of these haplotypes in North Africa from at least 20,000 YBP. The very low contribution of a Sub-Saharan African haplotype in the Iberomaurusian samples is confirmed. We also highlighted the existence of genetic flows between Southern and Northern coast of the Mediterranean.

_______________________________

This means
Afalou (15,000–11,000 YBP) in Algeria and
Taforalt (23,000–10,800 YBP)

are indeed very different, genetically (and in limb proportions)
to Sub Saharan Africans

If you want to look at a population that is more gracile look at the Capsian between about 9000 and 5000 BC in Tunisia, that came after the Iberomaurusian
However I am not aware of any DNA analysis.

Again, populations have come and gone in the Maghreb
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Well damn! At least use some vaseline. Lol!
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
It's raining nukes today. First Ronda Rousey, now this.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Doug

The way I see it, is that there is affinity due to admixture and affinity due to phylogenetic relatedness. The former involves plain admixture, the latter has to do with how long ago ancestral populations split off.

The affinity you're talking about between the Sahel and the Maghreb is affinity due to admixture. The affinity between, say, Afro-Caribbeans and African Americans is phylogenetic affinity. African Americans and Afro Caribbeans don't need admixture to be closely related. They are already closely related whether they intermix or not.

The same doesn't apply to Sahelian populations and Maghrebis. While Sahelian populations like the Tibbou may be related to Berbers, the two genetic components in their genome (mostly 'Nilo-Saharan-like' and 'Berber-like') have no close relationship. The source populations they're made up of are structurally different (i.e. they have completely different allele frequencies and certain patterns in their genomes).

This is why scholars use proxies when they want to understand Berber populations. They're not interested in sampling the entire Sahara. They just want to sample the source populations that can model populations in the Sahara.

You want them to go the extra mile and also sample admixed population in the Sahel that carry ancestry from the source populations. That's just redundant. Why would they want to do that? It would be nice if they did from our point of view, but it's not a requirement for what they set out to do.

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That wasn't my point at all. What I am saying is that if you are going to claim 'mixture' as the basis of modern populations in North Africa, then you should sample ALL the relevant populations to see all the different forms of admixture that exist. The point being that North Africa has always been populated by indigenous African groups, carrying various lineages and therefore, the key is identifying these ancient African populations and then distinguishing those from the immigrants, in this case Eurasians. My using these proxies they always give more weight to those populations with higher amounts of Eurasian admixture which they then go on to conclude has always been a primary component of admixture in ALL North Africans which is absolutely false. And then on top of that they try and extrapolate the ancestry of all other North Africans based on this biased sample set which is again flawed. There is no way you are going to come up with an accurate population history with such flawed sample sets. But that is assuming that the goal is an accurate population history. My argument is they don't want an accurate population history, they just want to promote the idea that North Africans have always been separated from other Africans by Eurasian admixture and by proposing that the founding lineages in North Africa came from Eurasia, which is all false.

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Please give a point by point analysis of how all these newly sequenced Sahelian, Saharan and coastal genomes have improved our understanding of the region in ways that couldn't be done with Henn et al's limited sample set of source populations.

I'm really confused by some of the things you say. For some reason, you seem to think you can squeeze more genetic information out of the various mixtures in the Sahara than the genetic information that is in the source populations. Is it really that hard for you to understand that the ancestry that is in the mixed populations of the Sahara, is the same ancestry that can be found in a handful of strategically picked source populations?

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quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/figure/10.1080/24701394.2016.1258406?scroll=top&needAccess=true


Let's see how y'all clowns are going to duck and dodge these results. This is what happens when you ignore data in favor of ideology.

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Actually we have been over this multiple times.

Like here:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000939;p=1

Here is a map:


Based on the proximity of said sites to Europe the results do make sense. But do they reflect the populations of ALL of North Africa? Of course not. Notwithstanding that the people at this time most likely looked similar to this Ethiopian type:


Than this:

quote:

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Caption: Mechta-Afalou model research. Researcher with a reconstruction of a Mechta-Afalou head based on fossils found at Afalou in Algeria (1967). These fossils date from 25,000 to 8,000 years ago. The Mechta-Afalou people were a form of early humans (Homo sapiens) that inhabited northern Africa. Reconstruction by the Daynes Studio, Paris, France.

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http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/481370/view

Again the implication here being that ALL North Africans derive from or looked like Eurasians.
The Iberomaurisian is one tiny sliver of North Africa right next to Europe. That is less than 5% of the complete expanse of "North Africa". But again, they will skew this to imply that ALL North Africans are basically the same as this population or any other population in later times by skewing the data towards coastal areas. Again, as I have said many times before the Sahara itself is bigger than the continental US and the Iberomaurisian is something like Rhode Island and Maine.

The problem here is these folks are implying that settlement of the Sahara was from the North migrating south, which again reinforces the belief that North Africa was "distinct" from the rest of Africa because of various Eurasian migrations going back 20,000 years ago.

I would argue that were other settlement sites in other parts of the Sahara, most likely around lakes or oases that they haven't found which would give a better picture. But here again, we are running up on the fact that when you start dealing with any time period over 15,000 years ago, there is a distinct LACK of archaeological findings in Africa. Right now the Sahara stone age sites around Gobero date from 10,000 years ago. https://news.uchicago.edu/article/2008/08/14/stone-age-graveyard-reveals-lifestyles-green-sahara-two-successive-cultures-thriv
But there is not much data from 40,000 KYA to 20,000 kya in North Africa proper, or much less anywhere else in Africa outside of Southern Africa. The only contemporaneous stone tool culture from this period in North Africa is the Khormusan:

http://ehrafarchaeology.yale.edu/ehrafa/citation.do?method=citation&forward=browseAuthorsFullContext&id=mr45-005

And this finding makes sense because of the Nile. But surely there is a big gap in the archaeological record.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Sabeh FrigiLotfi CherniKarima Fadhlaoui-zidAmel Benammar-Elgaaied
Human Biology, Volume 82, Number 4, August 2010,


n the present work, mtDNA data show a diversified distribution of African haplogroups. However, a question remains concerning the date of the sub-Saharan African inputs. Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b). The most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced from eastern sub-Saharan populations to North Africa about 20,000 years ago. The Siwa oasis sample studied by Coudray et al. (2009) contains sub-Saharan haplogroups L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2, which are different from our Tunisian samples, in agreement with the heterogeneity of Berbers already shown in Tunisia.Stevanovitch et al. (2004) suggested that the Gurna population in Egypt has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population characterized by a high haplogroup M1 frequency. This haplogroup is also present in three Berber populations (Kesra, Matmata, and Sned) with vari-able frequencies. In each of these populations, haplogroup L3* is also present. The association of both eastern African haplogroups in the Berber populations is a strong argument in favor of eastern African gene flow in Berbers. Other genetic and archaeological studies confirmed the crucial idea that an ancient population in East Africa constituted the basis of the ancestors of all African Upper Paleolithic populations—and their subsequent present-day descendants (Bengtson 2008; Keita 2004; Relethford 2000; Zakrzewski 2003, 2007)

Moreover, Berber languages spoken exclusively by North African popula-tions belong to the Afro-Asiatic language. Diakonoff (1998) showed an exclusively African origin (Diakonoff, 1981, 1988) for the family. He explicitly described proto-Afro-Asiatic vocabulary as consistent with non-food-producing vocabulary and linked it to pre-Neolithic cultures in the Levant and in Africa south of Egypt. Moreover, Ehret (2003) suggested that early Afro-Asiatic languages were spread by Mesolithic foragers from Africa into the Levant. On the contrary, Diamond and Bellwood (2003) suggested that food production and the Afro- Asiatic lan-guage family were brought simultaneously from the Near East to Africa by demic diffusion—in other words, by a migration of food-producing peoples. The evi-dence presented by Wetterstrom (1993) does not support this latter suggestion, however, and indicates that early African farmers in the Fayum initially incorpo-rated Near Eastern domesticates into an existing indigenous foraging strategy and only over time developed a dependence on horticulture. In conclusion, the crucial linguistic finding is that the three deepest clades of the Afro-Asiatic family are localized in Eritrea and Ethiopia. All the other lan-guages of the family outside that region belong to subclades of just one of those deep clades. This kind of cladistic distribution is a basic criterion of the genetic argument for the genetic lineage origins well understood by geneticists. It applies to linguistic history as well. Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to north-ern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP). It seems likely that an expansion would have taken place in the Sahel zone starting about the time of a gradual climatic return to wetter conditions, when the Senegal River cut through the dunes (Burke et al. 1971). For subhaplogroup L2a1 (data not shown) we found some haplotypes that the Tunisian Berbers shared with Mauritanians and western sub-Saharan popula-tions speaking a Niger-Congo language (studied by Salas et al. 2002). This sug-gests that the people who brought these markers to the Berber populations most likely came from West African populations that spoke languages belonging to the Niger-Congo family when the Sahara became drier. However, this contribution of West African haplotypes and of other haplotypes, such as those belonging to haplogroup L1b1, could have been introduced to North Africa more recently.Indeed, this West African contribution was difficult to date, because few haplotypes belonging to western African haplogroups have been observed, most of them being divergent. This result can be interpreted in different ways. Ancient western African mtDNA contributions could have disappeared from North Africa as a result of recent flows, or the situation observed now could be the result of a strong drift effect on ancient western African lineages, particularly those belong-ing to haplogroups L2a and L3b. A strong Iberian gene flow may have contrib-uted to the decrease in African haplogroups. Indeed, most of the older hypotheses about North African population settlement used to suppose an Iberian or an east-ern origin. The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How-ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re-flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autoso-mal and Y-chromosome markers.Since the end of the extreme Saharan desiccation, lasting from before 25,000 years ago up to about 15,000 years ago, the Sahara has had post- and pre-Holocene cyclical climatic changes (Street and Grove 1976), and corresponding
increases and decreases in population are probable. Wetter phases with better hab-itats perhaps allowed for increased colonization and gene and cultural exchange. Desiccation would have encouraged the emigration and segmentation of popu-lations, with resultant genetic consequences secondary to drift producing more variation. During the last glacial period, the Sahara was even bigger than it is today, extending south beyond its current boundaries (Ehret 2002). About 13,000 years ago, large parts of the Sahara were as dry as the desert is now (White and Mattingly 2006). The end of the glacial period brought more rain to the Sahara, especially from about 8500 to 6000 BC (Fezzan Project 2006). By around 3400 BC, the monsoon retreated south to approximately where it is today, leading to the gradual desertification of the region (Kröpelin 2008). Thus the Sahara, through its cyclical environmental changes, might be seen as a microevolutionary “proces-sor” and/or “pump” of African people that “ejected” groups to the circum-Saharan regions in times of increasing aridity. Indeed, it must be noted that the high frequencies of cDe, P, and V antigens
and low frequencies of FY antigens in some Berber-speaking groups (Chamla
1980; Mourant et al. 1976) indicate affinities with tropical Africans. These data may indicate recent or ancient gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa, a common im-mediate pre-Holocene ancestral group, or chance resemblance. Our findings are in accordance with other studies on Y-chromosome mark-ers that have shown that the predominant Y-chromosome lineage in Berber com-munities is the subhaplogroup E1b1b1b (E-M81), which emerged in Africa, is specific to North African populations, and is almost absent in Europe, except in Iberia (Spain and Portugal) and Sicily. Molecular studies on the Y chromosome in North Africa are interpreted as indicating that the southern part of Africa, namely, the Horn/East Africa, was a major source of population in the Nile Valley and northwest Africa after the Last Glacial Maximum, with some migration into the Near East and southern Europe (Bosch et al. 2001; Underhill et al. 2001). Hence, contrary to the suggestion that mtDNA haplogroups were intro-duced mostly from Iberia, it seems that Y-chromosome markers have an eastern African origin with an ancient local evolution in North Africa. These observa-tions are in agreement with the proposal that the ancient communities ancestral in language to more recent Berber communities absorbed a lot of females from the existing pre-Holocene populations. This would indicate that the North Afri-can populations arose from admixture rather than from local evolution, leading to an intermediate genetic structure between eastern sub-Saharan Africans and Eurasians. Rock paintings in North Africa that show people of different pheno-types living together are a strong argument for our hypothesis (Hachid 1982, 1992, 1998).In conclusion, our findings parallel the more recent findings of both archae-ology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present study suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex pop-ulation processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern hu-mans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic
root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa




_______________________________

KESRA


Kesra is a Berber village of the center-west, the highest of Tunisia with 1100 meters of altitude, famous for its megalithic monuments, its cascade of water and its stairs carved in the rock
At a distance of 160 kms from Tunis and 120 kms from Kairouan, it is attached to the governorate of Siliana. It has about 2500 inhabitants.
Kesra is the only ancient settlement in the area to survive. Historically, it played an important role.
Exceptional architecture

The stepped streets, the emblem of the village, date from Roman times, and it is not uncommon
To find Punic and Latin inscriptions on the stones of the walls of the houses.
The village contains megalithic monuments, some of which have retained their cover in large slabs, as well as tombs dug in the rock.
The other Byzantine monuments were built with ancient materials, such as a quadrangular fortress of the Justinian period, ramparts and a tower.
Also worth seeing is the zaouia of Sidi Ameur which is accessed by stairs cut in the rock.
The Heritage Museum
Kesra has a magnificent museum with three main themes:
. Popular traditions and female artisan work (pottery, weaving)


VIDEO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFBi7TPd0IY&t=48s
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
I am suggesting that sampling bias is skewing the data and that therefore you won't get as accurate results. For example, Tuaregs are spread across at least 4 countries in Africa. So when they sample "the Tuareg" which groups are they sampling? This goes for every other linguistic or ethnic group. And separate from that there is how you slice and dice the data, which more often than not is to try and reinforce historic beliefs which are not validated by the data: ie. North Africa as primarily derived from Eurasia, as opposed to North Africa primarily African with some Eurasian mixture. [/qb]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
I am suggesting that sampling bias is skewing the data and that therefore you won't get as accurate results. For example, Tuaregs are spread across at least 4 countries in Africa. So when they sample "the Tuareg" which groups are they sampling? This goes for every other linguistic or ethnic group. And separate from that there is how you slice and dice the data, which more often than not is to try and reinforce historic beliefs which are not validated by the data: ie. North Africa as primarily derived from Eurasia, as opposed to North Africa primarily African with some Eurasian mixture.

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I agree on the Tuareg example.

But that's not what we're talking about. You started out saying that it would have been a drastically different result in the treemix analysis if a 'better' SSA sample was used and that any conclusion is invalid unless geneticists scour the entire Sahara to find the best reference population for the African ancestry in the Maghreb.

Based on what? How do you know that would drastically improve results? It seems like you're just venting without having any proof. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Sabeh FrigiLotfi CherniKarima Fadhlaoui-zidAmel Benammar-Elgaaied
Human Biology, Volume 82, Number 4, August 2010,

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/figure/10.1080/24701394.2016.1258406?scroll=top&needAccess=true

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^abstract from above link:

On the origin of Iberomaurusians: new data based on ancient mitochondrial DNA and phylogenetic analysis of Afalou and Taforalt populations
Rym Kefi, Meriem Hechmi, Chokri Naouali, Haifa Jmel, Sana Hsouna, Eric Bouzaid, show all
Pages 1-11 | Received 17 Sep 2016, Accepted 04 Nov 2016, Published online: 30 Dec 2016

Abstract

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or they could have evolved in situ in North Africa. With the aim to contribute to a better knowledge of the settlement of North Africa we analysed the mitochondrial DNA extracted from Iberomaurusian skeletons exhumed from the archaeological site of Afalou (AFA) (15,000–11,000 YBP) in Algeria and from the archaeological site of Taforalt (TAF) (23,000–10,800 YBP) in Morocco.


Nice posts.

I stick with situ.





 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
Lioness


Now, answer my earlier question? Which group of Europeans are 100% European?

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It was a typical knee jerk response.

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:


Now, answer my earlier question? Which group of Europeans are 100% European?

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I haven't studied the cracker that deep so I don't know where his purest folk reside, probably some blond haired niggas in Norway

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Typical stupid sarcastic response when lacking knowledge.

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Help us out, where are the purest Europeans at? I lack the knowledge on this one

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

Swenet what is this guy Marouane Fellaini?
His parents are Moroccan

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He is a Moroccan Berber with origins at Tangier. And why you had to show his ex girlfriend Lara Binet subliminally, is beyond me.

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This is a good frontal view of him, no silly expression. His complexion here is nearly of the girl here, a tiny bit darker.
You said he wasn't white. Why is he not white? Is it the hair?
He probably does have some African in him though.
I dont go by that one drop makes you black thing.
Look at this guy. He's whiter than the white Fulani of Burkina Faso. No doubt Africans would call this guy white

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Yes, he is a bit darker than the girl, indeed. I said nothing about black or white. But he is the fairest you'll get in African populations.

I have no idea why a white Fulani of Burkina Faso is supposed to look like.




However, according to many of your descriptive posts on complexion, he fits the swarthy complexion.
 

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Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 
@DougM. I don't really care how they LOOKED. Their osteological affinity hinted that their genetic affinity would be with Eurasia. Some folks was ignoring it. Their facial features are pretty generalized and probably similar to many surrounding contemporary remains REGARDLESS of their affinity. See Kiffian.....better yet, see Hofmeyr.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Kiffian

Forensic reconstruction
Resin, University of Chicago and Project Exploration



 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:




yes, he is a bit darker than the girl, indeed. I said nothing about black or white. But he is the fairest you'll get in African populations.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
[qb] Why does it matter if certain light skin populations have resided in the Maghreb for thousands of years? The insistence that there were no Eurasian genetic input on the North African Coast is laughable as is the insistence that all light-skin Berbers are descendants of white slaves during the Barbary period even though 'white' Libyans were portrayed in ancient Egyptian reliefs. This is almost just as inane as the groundless assertion that all black North Africans are descendants of 'sub-Saharan' slaves.

Berbers are a linguistic group - not an ethnic group and it is the language that we should be focused on in regards to culture.

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What those depictions show at times is indeed light complexion, but "white" no.

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you did say something about black or white

you said this guy is not white



so anybody as dark as he is ^^ cannot be considered white




cheek samples of each person in the photo above it
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
The point is they should sample populations in West Africa closer to the Sahara and Sahel who have known historic links via trade and travel with Northern Afrca. Why no samples from Senegal, Mali, Southern Mauritania,Chad, Niger and so forth? Obviously there has always been migration beck and forth between the Sahara and areas to the South. ....

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:



cheek samples of each person in the photo above it

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There is something in photography called ISO and aperture. Look it up.

You pick and choose whatever you like.


The man is light brown complexioned. (I believe in America you call it redbone)


Here are more "white" soccer players, from his team.



 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ I remember a Spanish study Swenet sent me a couple years ago by I believe Gonzalez et al. which stated that even the alleged 'Eurasian' mitochondrial clades of U6 and M1 are not restricted to the Maghreb but are also found farther south in West Africa indicating that there was continuity between Northwest Africa and West Africa farther south.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 





who is more berber?
 

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Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
Is the top guy Indian?as I've seen a similar looking Berber.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Thereal:
Is the top guy Indian?as I've seen a similar looking Berber.

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watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X-ps7QyBjI
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
https://archive.org/details/upenn-f16-0057_1951_7_French_Morocco
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

looks like this Puerto Rican man I used to know
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Evoking and discussing slavery is an unnecessary distraction because we don't know any individuals' history. All we know is there is ongoing admixture and that this is not mutually exclusive with a long presence of SSA ancestry in the region.

For instance, here is Tuareg (MNLA) leadership pictured with Malians(?) of other ethnic groups (distinguishable by attire):



^These are not 'normal' levels of variation in pigmentation within a population. This is a population in which siblings', neighbors' and family members' skin colors can be all over the place. This high level of variation in skin color reduces and eventually disappears over time and so you know this scene right here is not a snapshot of variations thousands of years ago. There would have been a time when their Central Saharan ancestors had levels of skin pigmentation more or loss the same throughout the entire population. You only see this in groups that have had ongoing and recent admixture, like Brazilians, Cape Verdeans and African Americans.

But leave it to some people like the OP and they'll tell you they're all 'black Berbers' with no recent input from non Berbers to the south.

 

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Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 
Y'all still spamming pictures but avoiding that data though. Kiffians and that white Berber soccer player with the Afro will not save you. LOL.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Tell that to Lioness, the queen of picture spamming and cherry-picking.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
You try too hard, it's not a good look

lioness, 2017
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :