quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Maybe the woman in the OP also could make a video about white people and black people mimicking Native American hairstyles. Native American peoples hair has for a long time been discriminated against. Already in the days of the residential schools Native children were forced to cut their hair to look more "civilized". Hair was used as a weapon in the ethnocide against indigenous peoples. Still both whites and blacks are now and then sporting hairstyles which were originally used by Native Americans.
One such hairstyle is the so called Mohawk hairstyle. It is a hairstyle that has deep traditional roots among indigenous peoples in the eastern woodlands of America, The style has been usurped and mimicked by both White and Black people.
The Internet site Afroculture.Net for example promotes Mohawk hairstyles for black men.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: appropriation is a trigger warning for potential genocide.
you seem to be in agreement with Archeopteryx
I disagree. I think it's the opposite. It shows cultures intermixing White people doing rap music, black people singing opera, it's all good
It's racial separatists, black and white who are dangerous who are against all this
Anti-miscegenation laws in America and similar law in Nazi Germany are the types discouraging "race mixing" and culture is a part of that
I think some things many people call "cultural appropriation" are good signs of interaction between culture
I think it's bad when - done to mock OR - make a false claim that someone else's culture actually belongs to yours, that they are imposters
and bad when racial separatists try to tell people to stick to their own That doesn't work in the modern interconnected world
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^ ^ I agree that many hairstyles have been present along different peoples in different places during all times. So it can be hard to pinpoint the exact origin. In the case of the Mohawk the name itself gives away that those who use the name maybe know the origin. But similar styles have existed in Africa and Europe.
I saw that you also gave some European examples in this thread:
I also agree that it is worse when schools and workplaces forbid people (for example African Americans or Native Americans) to use their traditional hairstyles (or clothes or other traditional accessories).
I remember once the newspapers here wrote about an African man who were not let into a bar because he had traditional clothing. The bouncers told him that they did not let people in "pajamas" enter the bar.
quote:originally posted by the Lioness I think they are only bad when - done to mock OR - make a false claim that someone else's culture actually belongs to yours, that they are imposters
Also when some group uses another cultures (especially if it concerns an economically disadvantaged minority) specific clothes, jewelry, artwork and similar to earn money.
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Dane Calloway is an idiot but why worry over it? It's freedom of speech, let it pass, people on this continent can handle it. They can fight their own battles Europeans are the ones who displaced Native Americans and took over in the first place, so would they elect a European to chastise certain fringe black people for going overboard trying to be indigenous ?
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Your arguments this entire thread are just a bunch of deflections and projections. And there ARE Black admixed Native American groups like the "Black Seminoles" and yes they are a real group and not some "hotep" creation. They were runaway slaves/rebels absorbed by Natives.
And tbh American culture in general is creolized. You wouldn't know that since you don't live here. Again the issue is NOT non-Blacks taking part in Black culture such as hairstyles but the whole erasing the original people from it...
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The whole hair thing is silly. Dane Calloway and other "Abos" have a whole alternate history for black people and his channel has 41 million views
Askia, you ever seen this? This is way deeper (in the wrong way) then people messing with hairstyles
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Obviously there are people who also think that Black people participate in the erasure of Native American culture. Some black people are not content in only appropriating some hairstyle, they want to displace the whole Native American culture and claim they were in the America first and thus have the right to Native land and Native rights. That is a worse problem than some people mimicking locs.
Both pretendians (whereof many are White) and Wabos (mostly Black) worry Native Americans.
Here is a video about those groups, participating in indigenous erasure, and many also earning money on the erasure.
quote:In this video, I will briefly discuss the relevance of these two groups of people and the harm they can cause to Indigenous people.
And I do not talk about Black Seminoles and other admixed groups who has a real connection to Native culture and lands.
These questions are just some of all the questions that worry Native people, but they also have their importance. I know because I have direct contact with Native Americans.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The whole hair thing is silly. Dane Calloway and other "Abos" have a whole alternate history for black people and his channel has 41 million views
Askia, you ever seen this? This is way deeper (in the wrong way) then people messing with hairstyles
Fringe group. Umar Johnson gets even more views than Dane and he is still just a loud minority who many don't take serious. Lets see mainstream examples. I'm talking Howard university for example promoting this...
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Some black people are not content in only appropriating some hairstyle, they want to displace the whole Native American culture and claim they were in the America first and thus have the right to Native land and Native rights. That is a worse problem than some people mimicking locs.
Prove that such people have the power to do that or have made any significant advances toward that aim
Have you ever heard of British Israelism?
quote:belief that the people of Great Britain are "genetically, racially, and linguistically the direct descendants" of the Ten Lost Tribes of ancient Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism
why worry about these small fringe movements going nowhere? Why put so much energy into it?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The whole hair thing is silly. Dane Calloway and other "Abos" have a whole alternate history for black people and his channel has 41 million views
Askia, you ever seen this? This is way deeper (in the wrong way) then people messing with hairstyles
Fringe group. Umar Johnson gets even more views than Dane and he is still just a loud minority who many don't take serious. Lets see mainstream examples. I'm talking Howard university for example promoting this...
The thing is we are in a new internet world now people are being educated on the internet from youtube videos
Look in the "about" tab of a youtuber 4,000 views ? who cares?
But what if it's 400,000 or 4 million?
I think Dane Calloway, Mr Imhotep, Metatron are worth mentioning because they have influence, they get millions of views and many thousands of subscribers
>> although I only occasionally mention them, Archeopteryx seems to be on a mission
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quote:Originally posted by the Lioness why worry about these small fringe movements going nowhere? Why put so much energy into it?
Because my Native American friends worry about it.
It is not easy to prove how much power they can put in place to actually erase Native Americans for real. But some of the Natives I talked with think that some of these movements can influence politicians and other people in power, at least locally, which can have consequences for Native people.
Yes I heard about British Israelism and I heard about Mormons and others who also are spreading misinformation.
But maybe I will reason more about it in another thread. This thread was about locs.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: some of the Natives I talked with think that some of these movements can influence politicians and other people in power, at least locally, which can have consequences for Native people.
what consequences apart from noisy chatter?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The whole hair thing is silly. Dane Calloway and other "Abos" have a whole alternate history for black people and his channel has 41 million views
Askia, you ever seen this? This is way deeper (in the wrong way) then people messing with hairstyles
Fringe group. Umar Johnson gets even more views than Dane and he is still just a loud minority who many don't take serious. Lets see mainstream examples. I'm talking Howard university for example promoting this...
The thing is we are in a new internet world now people are being educated on the internet from youtube videos
Look in the "about" tab of a youtuber 4,000 views ? who cares?
But what if it's 400,000 or 4 million?
I think Dane Calloway, Mr Imhotep, Metatron are with mentioning because they have influence, they get millions of views and many thousands of subscribers
>> although I only occasionally mention them, Archeopteryx seems to be on a mission
Sure we are in the internet age. Agreed. Yet many Black people(and I mean those who don't frequent discussions like these just regular Blacks) I know don't even know who Dane Calloway or either of those ppl you listed are. Sure a naive Black person will come across their content and be like "DAMN!!!! I didn't know that!" But that's about it... Not just that the average person doesn't even care about history like that.
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quote:Originally posted by the Lioness why worry about these small fringe movements going nowhere? Why put so much energy into it?
Because my Native American friends worry about it.
It is not easy to prove how much power they can put in place to actually erase Native Americans for real. But some of the Natives I talked with think that some of these movements can influence politicians and other people in power, at least locally, which can have consequences for Native people.
Yes I heard about British Israelism and I heard about Mormons and others who also are spreading misinformation.
But maybe I will reason more about it in another thread. This thread was about locs.
Your "Native American friends" gotta be extremely paranoid to think that a bunch of fringe group minorities who are constantly ignored and mocked not just by mainstream academic but also Black ppl themselves(including those in academia) will influence politicians... Sounds like right-wing paranoia.
Anyways this thread is about Black hairstyles and NOT some mythical erasure of Native culture by Blacks. We already gotten off topic. So it ends here.
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I know don't even know who Dane Calloway or either of those ppl you listed are. Sure a naive Black person will come across their content and be like "DAMN!!!! I didn't know that!" But that's about it... Not just that the average person doesn't even care about history like that.
There are people on youtube now like HomeTeam History, Dane Calloway , Mr Imhotep, who make videos using professional level documentary editing and narration and are getting millions of views. I recommend watching some of their videos just to see wants going on.
There are also people that start youtube channels now with no official credentials who comment on news and world events, some of them are on a competitive level of views and influence with actual news companies
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Those are individual Youtubers. Lets see larger platforms that can reach mass audiences when it comes to getting their views out. And I mean across MULTIPLE medias. The only good example would be that Queen Cleopatra documentary. Which also gathered all types of protests from Egyptians. We aren't seeing Native Americans or other non-Black groups protest Dane Calloway in mass. Now are we? And more importantly the average person doesn't even care about history to begin with.
Anyways, like I said we are getting off-topic.
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I had read a couple of things that there is some old writings describing Viking hairstyles (or some particular character) including "rope-like" or "snake-like" styles but didn't see a sourced quote (although I didn't not do deep research for the source). The remarks seemed vague as to what was being described
this in my judgment are real dreds I'm not sure how it was done though, if it was just by not combing or brushing or if some other method was used also
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Back to hairstyles: It is hard to take some patent on hairstyles, especially styles that existed in different cultures through millennia, like "cornrows". The name is rather late, and that hairstyle probably had many names in different languages through times.
quote: History
The oldest known depictions of hairstyles that appear to be cornrows or braids are the statues known as the Venus of Brassempouy and the Venus of Willendorf, which date to 25,000-30,000 years ago and were found in modern day France and Austria.
Depictions of women with cornrows have been found in Stone Age paintings in the Tassili Plateau of the Sahara, and have been dated as far back as 3000 B.C. As well as the cornrow style is seen in depictions of ancient Cushitic people of the horn of Africa wearing this style of braids as far back as 2000 B.C. The traditional hairstyle of Roman Vestal Virgins incorporated cornrows.
The tradition of female hairstyling in cornrows has remained popular throughout Africa, particularly in the Horn of Africa and West Africa and the rest of Africa as a whole. Historically, male hairstyling with cornrows can be traced as far back as the early 5th century BC within Ancient Greek sculpture and artwork, typically shown on warriors and heroes. Artwork and statues of different Middle Eastern and Mediterranean civilisations dating back to the 3rd and 4th century BC also suggest that such hairstyles were common amongst warrior cultures. More modern male depictions occur in the 19th century Ethiopia, where warriors and kings such as Tewodros II and Yohannes IV were depicted wearing cornrows.
The name also refers to either the corn fields or sugar cane fields in the Caribbean. It is most commonly held that this idea originated from Benkos Biohó during his time as a slave in Colombia.
Cornrow hairstyles in Africa also cover a wide social terrain: religion, kinship, status, age, racial diversity, and other attributes of identity can all be expressed in hairstyle. Just as important is the act of braiding, which passes on cultural values between generations, expresses bonds between friends, and establishes the role of professional practitioner.
Cornrows have made a comeback in the United States in the 1960s and 1970s, and returned again during the 1990s and 2000s. In the 2000s, some athletes wore cornrows, including NBA basketball players Allen Iverson, Rasheed Wallace, and Latrell Sprewell. Many female mixed martial artists who have more than jaw-length hair choose to wear cornrows for their fights as it prevents their hair from obscuring their vision as they move.
Bust of Aspasia, identified through an inscription. Marble, Roman copy after an Hellenistic original. From Torre della Chiarrucia (Castrum Novum) near Civitavecchia.
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Girl playing astragaloi (knucklebones), from Caelian Hill in Rome, 150 CE
one of six Roman copies with a similar theme. All versions depict a female sitting on the floor with her legs drawn up, supporting herself with her left hand and just throwing two knuckles ( astragales ) with her right hand. An Ancient Greek divination game from around 2,300 years ago, known as ‘astragaloi’ (meaning ‘ankles’) and made from bones Either five astragaloi (plural) were rolled at once or, otherwise, one astragalos (single) was rolled five consecutive times in order to obtain an oracle.
The gaming pieces were comprised of ankle or hock bones (hence the name of the game) from animals such as goats or sheep although imitations have previously been found in bronze or wood.
Discovered bones have inscriptions of ancient Greek gods
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: appropriation is a trigger warning for potential genocide.
you seem to be in agreement with Archeopteryx
I disagree. I think it's the opposite. It shows cultures intermixing White people doing rap music, black people singing opera, it's all good
It's racial separatists, black and white who are dangerous who are against all this
Anti-miscegenation laws in America and similar law in Nazi Germany are the types discouraging "race mixing" and culture is a part of that
I think some things many people call "cultural appropriation" are good signs of interaction between culture
I think it's bad when - done to mock OR - make a false claim that someone else's culture actually belongs to yours, that they are imposters
and bad when racial separatists try to tell people to stick to their own That doesn't work in the modern interconnected world
Cultural exchange is cultural exchange. Appropriation is appropriation. White people rapping is not appropriation.
If you believe I'm in agreement with that poster then you aren't paying attention. That poster is barely in agreement with herself.
Sticking to your own is fine, people shouldn't be crucified for wanting to be exclusive. & Also being progressive doesn't necessarily lead to progression. I'm not taking up a moral argument in this thread.
My point was very simple. Taking cultural practices from another group and insinuating that it has always been apart of your own group to justify not paying homage OR to sidestep it's cultural significance is a problem.
Have you heard variations of the phrase: Everybody wan't to be [you] but nobody likes when [you're] around." "People can like what [you] do do but not like [you]"
If such statements are in consensus with the greater social sphere, then by all means, we can eliminate [you].
Logically, judging by some of what you say you think is bad, you are in agreement with me.
@Askia See how predictable people like that poster is. Pay attention, it's no longer about hypocrisy lol. Caught pants down with the attempt to call the fro-hawk appropriation (which he/she might have has a point if they didn't contradict themselves about "similar practices") and now we're back to claiming cornrows were deeply embedded into European culture. Look at how pathetic it is ...
I've seen various online articles saying that Cecily Tyson wore cornrows in a 1962 TV episode of EastSide/Westside The series aired for one season (1963–1964), and was shown Monday nights on CBS. but I think that's incorrect.
This is what she did on East Side/West Side in 1963. It was her idea to cut her hair and go natural. Black women were not doing this on TV at the time. Her cornrows came later > as we see, 1972 but Nina Simone had done it before her in 1970 (maybe before also?) You might have to go back to the colonial era to find black women in America doing cornrows before 1970 (or maybe a few in the late 60s- I'm not sure if there is a photo to prove it)
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This girl wore "cornrows" hundreds of years before there even were any African Americans. Just arrogance that some African Americans suddenly claim that hairstyle as their own.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: @Elmaestro
Yea I stopped engaging it. lol.
Smart. Why have a conversation about hair culture with someone who doesn't even know the difference between flat twists and cornrows.
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Yes better I also let go of this discussion, why have a discussion with people who believe that African Americans, a rather new people that did not even exist as a group until a few centuries back, invented hairstyles that existed in different forms for thousands of years in other cultures?
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For those who are interested in the anthro side of things. Samson was already mentioned in the Snappy Dragon quote. Another one I can think of rn is Hindu deity Rudra.
त्र्यम्बकं यजामहे tryambakaṃ yajāmahe We worship the three eyed one RV 7.59.12 कपर्दिने kapardine Who has matted hair RV 1.114.1 हिरण्यम् इव रोचते hiraṇyam iva rocate Who shines like gold RV 1.43.5 शुक्र इव सूर्यो śukra iva sūryo Who shines like [the] Sun RV 1.43.5 स्थीरेभिरंगै sthīrebhiraṃgai Who is with firm limbs RV 2.33.9 पुरुरुप pururupa Who has multiforms RV 2.33.9 यजतं विश्वरुपम् yajataṃ viśvarupam Who is of the form of the universe RV 2.33.10 येभिः शिवः yebhiḥ śivaḥ Who is auspicious RV 10.92.9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudra
Nice artwork (makes me want to pick up my pencil again):
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Bumping this because there is one thing bugging me about ancient North African hairstyles.
If wavier hair textures are supposedly the indigenous North African hair texture, what's with all the ancient depictions of Egyptians, Libyans, and Numidians with what appear to be tight braids or dreadlocks? Aren't those the hairstyles supposed to be damaging to non-4C hair? Even allowing that many of the Egyptian self-representations show the subjects wearing wigs, I have a hard time believing they were importing all those braided or dreadlocked wigs from sub-Saharan sources.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: This girl wore "cornrows" hundreds of years before there even were any African Americans. Just arrogance that some African Americans suddenly claim that hairstyle as their own.
These are NOT EVEN CORNROWS, SMH!!!!
You don't even know the difference, but are tying to "School" Black Folks, about OUR HAIRSTYLES.
How ARROGANT!
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quote:Originally posted by TyDaniels ...trying to "School" Black Folks, about OUR HAIRSTYLES.
No one owns a hair style so it is not your hairstyles. To try to police other peoples about what hairstyle to wear is arrogant.
It is always hard to interpret ancient statuary. We do not exactly know how these hairstyles looked like in real life. Unfortunately we have no authentic hair preserved from that context. But that does not really matter. African Americans still have no patent on dreadlocs or corn rows. It is up to everyone to wear whatever hairstyle he or she wants.
Similar hairstyles existed in different cultures before African Americans even existed.
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
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quote:Originally posted by Ty Daniels: These are NOT EVEN CORNROWS, SMH!!!!
You don't even know the difference, but are tying to "School" Black Folks, about OUR HAIRSTYLES.
How ARROGANT!
Lmfao!!!!!!
But yeah arch, that is definitely not corn rows.
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quote:Originally posted by TyDaniels ...trying to "School" Black Folks, about OUR HAIRSTYLES.
No one owns a hair style so it is not your hairstyles. To try to police other peoples about what hairstyle to wear is arrogant.
It is always hard to interpret ancient statuary. We do not exactly know how these hairstyles looked like in real life. Unfortunately we have no authentic hair preserved from that context. But that does not really matter. African Americans still have no patent on dreadlocs or corn rows. It is up to everyone to wear whatever hairstyle he or she wants.
Similar hairstyles existed in different cultures before African Americans even existed.
NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, THOSE ARE NOT CORNROWS.
You FAIL!!!!!!
I've had Cornrows for over 10 Years, I have "4C" hair to accommodate ACTUAL CORNROWS.
I know, and anyone capable of getting REAL CORNROWS, knows those aren't Cornrows.
But instead of falling back, because you are CLUELESS, you DOUBLE DOWN.
Arrogance, Narcissism, FAILURE!!!!!
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About stealing and rebranding: Mohawk is a name of a Native American people, to call a hairstyle a "Frohawk" is nothing other then rebranding. Were there ever a people called Frohawks"?
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Are you an African? Many African Americans have never sat their foot in Africa so they can not automatically claim African ideas, just as I can not automatically claim Spanish or Greek cultural traditions just because I am an European.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: About stealing and rebranding: Mohawk is a name of a Native American people, to call a hairstyle a "Frohawk" is nothing other then rebranding. Were there ever a people called Frohawks"?
More White People, In America wear "Mohawks" than ANY BLACK PERSON WOULD EVER.
We CLOWN PEOPLE FOR Hairstyles Like that.
White People starting calling that hairstyle a "Mohawk" after the Native American Tribe, NOT BLACK PEOPLE.
But Naturally, you only give a SHYT About when Black People are doing something.
It's part of the RACIST "CONCERN TROLLING" that you do.
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That is the most sorry a** excuse I often hear: "White people did it first", or "white people did it worse". That is no excuse, everyone must take responsibility for their own actions. Not blame others because they also did it.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Are you an African? Many African Americans have never sat their foot in Africa so they can not automatically claim African ideas, just as I can not automatically claim Spanish or Greek cultural traditions just because I am an European.
My ANCESTORS where Braiding Hair, and Cornrowing, before the first one ever SET FOOT IN AMERICA.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????
We brought our cultural traditions FROM AFRICA.
YOU KNOW ZERO ABOUT BLACK AMERICANS, BUT ALWAYS HAVE OUR NAME IN YOUR MOUTH.
COME UP FOR AIR!!!
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Yes, but you live in America now not in Africa, or?
Seems that dreadlocs can as well have been inspired by Indians on Jamaica.
And if black people are proud of their African heritage then maybe school them not to straighten their hair or wear blond wigs. And they could rename the Frohaws and not twist a Native American name. If they want others to not appropriate their cultural traits then they should not appropriate others either.
I do not bother too much about African Americans, but some of them are rather good at borrowing hairstyles and similar too, so it is a bit hypocritical to scold white people for wearing locs and similar.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: That is the most sorry a** excuse I often hear: "White people did it first", or "white people did it worse". That is no excuse, everyone must take responsibility for their own actions. Not blame others because they also did it.
The fact that you are so CLUELESS that you don't know that Black Americans Make Fun of other Black Folks with "Fro Hawks", SMH!!!
We DON'T (AS A GROUP) WEAR "FRO HAWKS", they are considered LAME/CORNY/SWAGLESS.
And NO AMOUNT OF DEFLECTION about White People, STEALING THE "MOHAWK" from Native Americans Will Work.
I'll also add, it is YOUR PEOPLE WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE NATIVE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
No amount of Black People "Wearing Mohawks", WILL REMOVE THE BLOOD ON THE HANDS OF YOUR PEOPLE.
GO "CONCERN" TROLL THAT!!!!!!!
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Not all whites wear dreadlocs either. Many whites think it is rather silly if a blonde guy runs around with dreadlocs, at least if he has no religious reasons to do so.
I do not live there so my ancestors did not take any part in the genocide in USA.
But some Black people actually did, some Buffalo soldiers helped the whites to remove Native Americans from their land.
About hair, black people wear "white" wigs or bleach their hair or straighten it, and some also wear Native American hairstyle (or at least the names of them) so Black people also borrow from other cultures. So they have no cause scolding other people for borrowing hairstyles.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Not all whites wear dreadlocs either. Many whites think it is rather silly if a blond guy runs around with dreadlocs, at least if he has no religious reasons to do so.
I do not live there so my ancestors did not take any part in the genocide in USA.
But some Black people actually did, some Buffalo soldiers helped the whites to remove Native Americans from their land.
About hair, black people wear "white" wigs or bleach their hair or straighten it, and some also wear Native American hairstyle (or at least the names of them) so Black people also borrow from other cultures. So they have no cause scolding other people for borrowing hairstyles.
DON'T STRAWMAN ME. AND STOP THE DEFLECTIONS.
I DON'T CARE WHO WEARS WHAT HAIR STYLE.
You posted a photo claiming that it was Cornrows, WHEN IT WAS NOT.
It was part of your PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE, ANTI-BLACK RACISM.
Trying to "School" Black Folks, about some SHYT YOU WOULD NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS UNDERSTAND!
You were WRONG, BUT TOO NARCISSISTIC, AND ARROGANT TO ADMIT IT.
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