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That being said, you have to admit the hoteps who take umbrage at White people wearing dreadlocks are fucking obnoxious too. Yes, it's not fair that Black people receive discrimination for wearing Afro hairstyles, but that doesn't justify any kind of policing people's hairstyles based on an ideology of cultural separatism. Let people of any ethnicity wear whatever hairstyles they want.
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Uh... Whats "hotep"(you're using the term incorrectly) about fairly calling about the hypocrisy of hairstyles being deemed as negative or positive when it comes to certain ethnic groups?
And sure people can wear whatever hairstyles they want(as long as they pay respect to where the original practice comes from), but the irony is that "African based" hairstyles are actually DAMAGING to non-4 type hair. This includes African styling of locs. So again people can "wear whatever they want" but good luck with the end results.
And lastly tbh Brandon its not even "hoteps" as you call them who do the fiercest policing of Black hairstyles but your average Black women.
Also edit: If you call this "cultural separation" you might as well also call Māori tattoos "cultural separation" considering the average Polynesian calls out what they feel is cultural appropriation.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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I'm just not a fan of people using the concept of "cultural appropriation" to enforce separatism by telling people they can't wear or do certain things associated with other cultures. It might be understandable if the cultural artifacts in question have some sort of special spiritual significance (e.g. kippahs, the Polynesian tattoos you mentioned, or certain Native American headdresses), but that wouldn't apply to mundane subjects like hairstyles or foodstuffs.
Furthermore, the concept has potential for weaponization. If you've ever seen a racist North African "Arab" accuse Black people of cultural appropriation for wearing ankhs or Berber tattoos, you should know what I mean.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: I'm just not a fan of people using the concept of "cultural appropriation" to enforce separatism by telling people they can't wear or do certain things associated with other cultures. It might be understandable if the cultural artifacts in question have some sort of special spiritual significance (e.g. kippahs, the Polynesian tattoos you mentioned, or certain Native American headdresses), but that wouldn't apply to mundane subjects like hairstyles or foodstuffs.
Furthermore, the concept has potential for weaponization. If you've ever seen a racist North African "Arab" accuse Black people of cultural appropriation for wearing ankhs or Berber tattoos, you should know what I mean.
Berber tattoos on an Afro american is Appropriation. And people who wear ankhs are typically hoteps (in the most literal sense) ...
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Berber tattoos on an Afro american is Appropriation. And people who wear ankhs are typically hoteps (in the most literal sense) ...
OK, those weren't the best examples. But you know what I'm referring to, right? You know about racist North Africans weaponizing the concept of cultural appropriation to attack Black people's claims on ancient North African history and cultures, don't you?
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As she also mentions in the video dreadlock like hairstyles have existed among Native Americans, in India and also in Europe. Braiding of different kinds have also existed all over the world. So it can be hard to lay claim to those hairstyles.
Tatoos, culture specific clothes, headgear or symbols is another matter.
And also some black people in USA are guilty of cultural appropriation when they use Native American dresses, symbols, headgear and sometimes even claim that they are the original Indigenous people of the Americas.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: [QB] I'm just not a fan of people using the concept of "cultural appropriation" to enforce separatism by telling people they can't wear or do certain things associated with other cultures.
No offense but do you know what "cultural appropriation" vs "separatism" is? The former is about protecting something that is SACRED, so that it doesn't not only get erased from the original culture but also its original purpose doesn't become obscure or worse a mockery.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: It might be understandable if the cultural artifacts in question have some sort of special spiritual significance (e.g. kippahs, the Polynesian tattoos you mentioned, or certain Native American headdresses), but that wouldn't apply to mundane subjects like hairstyles or foodstuffs.
Uh... Yes it can in fact apply to hairstyles. Especially when certain hairstyles are viewed as "sacred" in certain cultures. I know Black women(and no not "hoteps") for the most part view their hair as sacred. Especially certain braiding styles. It's viewed as "sacred" not just because of the discrimination Black women and Black hairstyles face but also the deep rooted tradition of braiding ones hair in Black cultures that's been passed down. Then you have locs in the Rasta culture which are spiritual... Like I said people can wear any hairstyle they want but "Black hairstyles" aren't even compatible with non-4 type hair. But more importantly it becomes appropriation especially when mainstream culture erases Black people from such traditions.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP:
Furthermore, the concept has potential for weaponization. If you've ever seen a racist North African "Arab" accuse Black people of cultural appropriation for wearing ankhs or Berber tattoos, you should know what I mean.
Like Elmaestro already said they ARE cultural appropriations especially if you just have them to be "cool" or worse claim that cultural tradition as yours. Now I have a Ethiopian Ge'ez tattoo. However, I have it because not only is my brother-in-law is Eithiopian but I have been to Ethiopia and studied ancient Ethiopian history. I also have a Tinifagh script tattoo, however that is not only because the Tuaregs are one of my favorite African ethnic groups but also I asked many, upon many North African Amazigns their personal opinions on the matter including some familiar faces, and they were okay with it because they were paying respect, and or studied the history. MOST people who take part in not just Black hairstyles or even Maori tattoos are NOT doing those but for the most part(not all) is just a cool "trend" or "costume" for them. It. You damn bet some North Africans will argue my Tifinagh tattoo is appropriation(don't blame them) but I feel I can comfortably explain why I got it. Unlike certain people who get Black hairstyles because its "trendy." Me? I don't see Eminem as "appropriate" because Eminem not only respects the culture but has done his HOMEWORK...
Edit: I can also point out to a Amazigh on why I got the tattoo is because I am a traveler and feel like a nomad, and the Tuaregs are a rather popular nomadic group. The tattoo I got is "Amassakoul" in Tifinagh which translates to the "travel." Again another reason why I got the tattoo, and how I can explain myself. No different from a European who has a Polynesian tattoo because he/she did their research and also visited a Polynesian country.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: As she also mentions in the video dreadlock like hairstyles have existed among Native Americans, in India and also in Europe. Braiding of different kinds have also existed all over the world. So it can be hard to lay claim to those hairstyles.
Key phase: "Dreadlock like" The way Black people get locs is different from the way non-Black people do. And she even states there's hardly any solid evidence that they were locs. Point is we only really see African style versions of locs on non-Black people after the popularity of Bob Marley/Reggae.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
And also some black people in USA are guilty of cultural appropriation when they use Native American dresses, symbols, headgear and sometimes even claim that they are the original Indigenous people of the Americas. [/QB]
This is a HUGE reach and you even know this. Only a fringe group does/believes this in the Black American community. I can tell you probably don't live in America. A better example would be Black people mainly REAL hoteps rocking ankh jewerly or using the ankh symbol.
Edit: Also you can remove the silly "Olmecs were not African" from your signature as hardly anyone on this site besides a few radical folks like Clyde Winters and his ilk believe the Olmecs were "African."
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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I mean literally... Here in the USA we literally had to enforce new laws/bills like the "crown act" just show Black people can wear their natural hair/hairstyles from locs, afros, braids/cornrows, etc in the workforce(especially corporate) without being discriminated or worse terminated. This especially hits home for me because I work in corporate and growing out my hair.
So you have to understand Black people's frustration and bitterness. And it has crap to do with "cultural separation." And exaggerating claims of the vast majority of AAs claiming to be indignous to America is even stupider.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Key phase: "Dreadlock like" The way Black people get locs is different from the way non-Black people do. And she even states there's hardly any solid evidence that they were locs. Point is we only really see African style versions of locs on non-Black people after the popularity of Bob Marley/Reggae.
Well, some of the Indian, or Native hairstyles are more or less indistinguishable from some black peoples dreadlocks, and in some depictions of the polish plates they are at least very like. But I can agree that many of the whites having dreadlocks do perhaps not have polish plates in mind.
quote:This is a HUGE reach and you even know this. Only a fringe group does/believes this in the Black American community. I can tell you probably don't live in America. A better example would be Black people mainly REAL hoteps rocking ankh jewerly or using the ankh symbol.
That is not a reach, it is actually a problem that Native Americans themselves have adressed. The African Americans that try to appropriate Native American culture and history are maybe not overwhelmingly many but some of them are rather active, especially on social media. There have also been attempts to sneak in especially the African Olmec myth in academic contexts as for example Greg Wiggans et als paper that was later retracted.
So if Black Americans do not want whites to wear dreadlocks maybe they ought also adress those African Americans who continue trying to appropriate Native American culture in different ways. Fortunately some do, like Umar Johnson, Chief X and Richard Kittles to mention just a couple of them.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Key phase: "Dreadlock like" The way Black people get locs is different from the way non-Black people do. And she even states there's hardly any solid evidence that they were locs. Point is we only really see African style versions of locs on non-Black people after the popularity of Bob Marley/Reggae.
Well, some of the Indian, or Native hairstyles are more or less indistinguishable from some black peoples dreadlocks, and in some depictions of the polish plates they are at least very like. But I can agree that many of the whites having dreadlocks do perhaps not have polish plates in mind.
quote:This is a HUGE reach and you even know this. Only a fringe group does/believes this in the Black American community. I can tell you probably don't live in America. A better example would be Black people mainly REAL hoteps rocking ankh jewerly or using the ankh symbol.
That is not a reach, it is actually a problem that Native Americans themselves have adressed. The African Americans that try to appropriate Native American culture and history are maybe not overwhelmingly many but some of them are rather active, especially on social media. There have also been attempts to sneak in especially the African Olmec myth in academic contexts as for example Greg Wiggans et als paper that was later retracted. So if Black Americans do not want whites to wear dreadlocks maybe they ought also adress those African Americans who continue appropriate Native American culture in different ways. Fortunately some do, like Umar Johnson, Chief X and Richard Kittles to mention just a couple of them.
Touch grass.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Well, some of the Indian, or Native hairstyles are more or less indistinguishable from some black peoples dreadlocks, and in some depictions of the polish plates they are at least very like. But I can agree that many of the whites having dreadlocks do perhaps not have polish plates in mind.
The aesthetics maybe similar but how its done are not. People of African descent braid their hairs TIGHTER than people with non-4 type hair among many other factors. Each hair type has their advantages and disadvantages(I personally believe no hair type is superior over the other), but the advantage of type 4 hair is that it doesn't have to be washed all the time, however people with 4 type locs CAN wash their hair unlike people with non-4 type hair. So its a myth that you get locs(or at least the African version if it) via not washing. Hence the lady in the video even addressed.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: That is not a reach, it is actually a problem that Native Americans themselves have adressed. The African Americans that try to appropriate Native American culture and history are maybe not overwhelmingly many but some of them are rather active, especially on social media. There have also been attempts to sneak in especially the African Olmec myth in academic contexts as for example Greg Wiggans et als paper that was later retracted. So if Black Americans do not want whites to wear dreadlocks maybe they ought also adress those African Americans who continue appropriate Native American culture in different ways. Fortunately some do, like Umar Johnson, Chief X and Richard Kittles to mention just a couple of them.
Yes, it is a reach and a terrible one at that. Like I said you can only point to FRINGE groups in the Black community like most people who want to project on Black people. Like I said, I doubt you live in the USA. The average Black American doesn't even know what the heck an Olmec is if you ask them. Moving on, no one in the Black community takes those three people seriously, especially Umar Johnson who is made fun of especially by Gen Z Black people. More importantly Umar is Afrocentric, he doesn't even adhere to that fringe "indigenous" movement. How about you fetch us MAINSTREAM Black American media or academics arguing that Black Americans are indigenous. And again NOT fringe groups/pseudo-intellectuals. Show me popular Black American celebrities wearing Native American dresses, headreases, etc. lol. There is actually MORE evidence of White Americans claiming a indigenous ancestry. Hence terms like "5 dollar Indian." Black Americans also aren't the ones who freaking named a sports team "Redskins" and had to have the name changed decades LATER due to protests. We also AREN'T the ones who exotified/commercialized their culture....
I gave you a better example with Ankhs or heck "Nubian queen" yet you didn't wanna compromise... *shrugs* I'm not saying Black people AREN'T innocent of appropriation, but like usually people who LOVE to criticize Black people always pick the most fringe group.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Typical sleight of hand tactics. Deflect and talk about instances of black Americans doing something bad to detract from the point which isn't getting addressed clearly. Pay attention to the fact that the person of which you're responding to doesn't truly have a point. It seems like: "Black people can't address their own culture potentially being appropriated until they address the black people that appropriate other cultures." Which is such an incredibly stupid idea that I don't believe they even believe it has any merit or legitimacy as a thought.
I see the point you're trying to make. But it's too sincere for the internet. The issues with appropriation will be hard to express online with certain audiences, particularly among people with hidden agendas, idealized philosophies and ego investments. Your Eminem example was good enough to explain what you mean but still someone felt the need to bring up Native american appropriation as if that isn't a layered multifaceted issue within itself.
Nonetheless. It isn't policing to point out what looks to be appropriation, it's calling a spade a spade.
While it is cool and true to say "We should let people wear any hairstyle they want" It is also true but sad that "In many cases such as that with Dreadlocks, the fashion has become so mainstream it was disassociated with the source culture and even re-branded as indigenous (as a practice) to many other cultures."
- I agree with both sentiments but the latter makes some people uncomfortable despite them not being victim to it. And for the thinking man it's clear to see why such a scenario will bother any group of people.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:The aesthetics maybe similar but how its done are not. People of African descent braid their hairs TIGHTER than people with non-4 type hair among many other factors. Each hair type has their advantages and disadvantages(I personally believe no hair type is superior over the other), but the advantage of type 4 hair is that it doesn't have to be washed all the time, however people with 4 type locs CAN wash their hair unlike people with non-4 type hair. So its a myth that you get locs(or at least the African version if it) via not washing. Hence the lady in the video even addressed.
Aestetically and visually the dreadlocks and similar locks are rather alike, so the original concept of that kind of hair is not only invented by black people. So it maybe hard to discern who have the right to have such hair. Should Indians accuse African Americans for stealing the idea? Many ideas from Indian culture have by the way been picked up by both white and black people here in the west, so most people borrow or sometimes steal from each other. When regarding hair styles it is hard to patent a hairstyle, especially one that have been used by several people.
But symbols, headgear, tatoos and similar are often more specific. Like ankhs, or Native pearl embroideries just to mention a couple.
quote: Yes, it is a reach and a terrible one at that. Like I said you can only point to FRINGE groups in the Black community like most people who want to project on Black people. Like I said, I doubt you live in the USA. The average Black American doesn't even know what the heck an Olmec is if you ask them. Moving on, no one in the Black community takes those three people seriously, especially Umar Johnson who is made fun of especially by Gen Z Black people. More importantly Umar is Afrocentric, he doesn't even adhere to that fringe "indigenous" movement. How about you fetch us MAINSTREAM Black American media or academics arguing that Black Americans are indigenous. And again NOT fringe groups/pseudo-intellectuals. Show me popular Black American celebrities wearing Native American dresses, headreases, etc. lol. There is actually MORE evidence of White Americans claiming a indigenous ancestry. Hence terms like "5 dollar Indian." Black Americans also aren't the ones who freaking named a sports team "Redskins" and had to have the name changed decades LATER due to protests. We also AREN'T the ones who exotified/commercialized their culture....https://qz.com/805704/columbus-day-cultural-appropriation-white-americans-need-to-stop-assuming-native-american-culture-belongs-to-them-too
Not a reach at all, as long as it bothers some Native Americans it is a problem. Those groups who conduct these forms of appropriation are rather active on social media so they have an influence, even if they are not so many. Some of them also try to spread their ideas through art work (as the hotly debated Olmec heads in murals about African American history) and in academia like in university courses about the Black presence in Mexico which also included the Olmecs.
Some write children books or make children videos trying to spread the appropriation to young people.
It may be a minority who promotes those ideas but it still is a nuisance for Native Americans who already have lost land, lives, and also through the times been forbidden to express their own cultures (just like blacks have been).
So for Native Americans it is a nuisance that both white and black Americans are trying to steal or usurp their history.
When I mentioned Dr Umar I meant that he actually protested against black peoples pretending to be Native Americans, so he obviously does not adhere to that notion. Rickard Kittles have protested against black people claiming to be the Native Americans too. He is a geneticist.
An academic who has promoted the Black Olmec idea is Greg Wiggan who published an academic article who was later retracted, as I already linked too.
quote:I gave you a better example with Ankhs or heck "Nubian queen" yet you didn't wanna compromise... *shrugs* I'm not saying Black people AREN'T innocent of appropriation, but like usually people who LOVE to criticize Black people always pick the most fringe group.
I do not mean that Black people are alone appropriating Native culture, or other cultures, but whites are not alone either doing it. Both groups are guilty of such things, even if whites do it more and have a much bigger power base in spreading their kind of appropriation.
So maybe both groups ought to adress the worst sinners among them.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Archeopteryx, just an aside, you are aware there are Black people who actually have Native ancestors right? Or do you just automatically assume they are all pretendians trying to usurp Native history?
Edit:
Brandon I would also suggest really learning what the words you use mean and also get used to people saying things you don't like. Even when people do have the ancestries in question(and I can see some people pigeonholing Afam ancestry even in this thread),there are always going to be people who say they aren't enough of that ancestry and accuse them of appropriation. I'm sure Archeopteryx would say I was appropriating if I was wearing some type of Native American jewelry despite one of my great grandmothers being Native, because I don't look like he thinks I should. Deal with it or don't do it.
Askia made a good point when he explained how he dealt with his own choices and cultural appropriation. When you approach it respectfully and can actually articulate it you will have a lot easier time with it. Ofcourse there are people who will never be satisfied no matter what. I'm sure there's West Africans who'd be outraged seeing me wear Kente cloth or speak a West African language despite my substantial West African ancestry.
Oh well, either deal with it or don't.
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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square. Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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quote:Archeopteryx, just an aside, you are aware there are Black people who actually have Native ancestors right? Or do you just automatically assume they are all pretendians trying to usurp Native history?
Of course I am aware of that. But what I learned during the years I followed these debates are that most of the worst "pretendians" are not descendants of native Americans, or at least not more than the average black person, (or white person).
I was once invited by Native friends to a couple of social media chat groups for Native Americans who debunked all sorts claims from both Black and White cultural usurpers.
And some of the ideas that are promoted are also ideas that African people were in the Americas before Columbus, or even before todays Native Americans arrived. There have even been claims among the most fringe people that todays Native Americans are descendant of Chinese or Filipino slaves who were taken to the Americas to replace the "original blacks".
Among some Black Americans who propose these kinds of claims there are two main schools: Some claim that black people were the original Americans who are the ancestors of todays African Americans. Native Americans are later "imports" or "Siberian invaders", or other Asian intruders.
Then there is another school that claims that Africans came to the Americas in precolumbian times and influenced (some time the word "civilized" has even been used) Native American cultures, and some of them lived on and became ancestors to some African Americans. Some people also mix these schools together.
A third thought is that some African Americans have mixed with Native Americans from he 1500s and onwards. But among the majority of African Americans the Native American element is not especially high.
And most of African Americans have not grown up in a Native American context so they have no cultural continuity with any Native American people.
But of course there is a minority people of mixed Native/African descent, but those are not the ones I refer to.
It can be mentioned that similar ideas have been proposed by some White people too, that Europeans were the original inhabitants of the Americas, or that Europeans came before Columbus and influenced certain American civilisations like the Olmecs. Regarding the later there have also been claims that Chinese people came and influenced them and that the Olmec glyphs is a kind of ancient Chinese writing. Some Hindus have also proposed ideas about influences from India.
Seems that many want a part of the American cultural cake.
When I talked with Native American fiends about such claims they have sometimes interpreted it as a wish among some foreign peoples to relativize Native claims of land and sovereignty. If they can prove (or at least convince public opinion) that Native Americans were not first in the Americas then Native land claims and similar could be considered less legitimate. And that could get real life consequences.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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So, just to make sure we're on the same page, you guys aren't actually arguing it's always wrong for non-Black people to wear their hair in dreadlocks or African-style braids, are you?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Aestetically and visually the dreadlocks and similar locks are rather alike, so the original concept of that kind of hair is not only invented by black people.
Aesthetically doesn't mean anything, because once again the way African style locs is braided/done is NOT the same as East Indians or any other non-Black people. Plus East Indians have a more matted look anyways. So yea your bolded already fall flat. Watch the video again...
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Not a reach at all, as long as it bothers some Native Americans it is a problem. Those groups who conduct these forms of appropriation are rather active on social media so they have an influence, even if they are not so many. Some of them also try to spread their ideas through art work (as the hotly debated Olmec heads in murals about African American history) and in academia like in university courses about the Black presence in Mexico which also included the Olmecs.
Some write children books or make children videos trying to spread the appropriation to young people.
It may be a minority who promotes those ideas but it still is a nuisance for Native Americans who already have lost land, lives, and also through the times been forbidden to express their own cultures (just like blacks have been).
So for Native Americans it is a nuisance that both white and black Americans are trying to steal or usurp their history.
When I mentioned Dr Umar I meant that he actually protested against black peoples pretending to be Native Americans, so he obviously does not adhere to that notion. Rickard Kittles have protested against black people claiming to be the Native Americans too. He is a geneticist.
An academic who has promoted the Black Olmec idea is Greg Wiggan who published an academic article who was later retracted, as I already linked too.
]I do not mean that Black people are alone appropriating Native culture, or other cultures, but whites are not alone either doing it. Both groups are guilty of such things, even if whites do it more and have a much bigger power base in spreading their kind of appropriation.
So maybe both groups ought to adress the worst sinners among them.
Before I even continue, do you live in the USA or not? Because its very relevant.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: @ Askia, Elmaestro, and Punos_Rey
So, just to make sure we're on the same page, you guys aren't actually arguing it's always wrong for non-Black people to wear their hair in dreadlocks or African-style braids, are you?
I can only speak for myself. But refer to my Eminem, Tifinagh/Ge'ez tattoo example.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: @ Askia, Elmaestro, and Punos_Rey
So, just to make sure we're on the same page, you guys aren't actually arguing it's always wrong for non-Black people to wear their hair in dreadlocks or African-style braids, are you?
quote:While it is cool and true to say "We should let people wear any hairstyle they want" It is also true but sad that "In many cases such as that with Dreadlocks, the fashion has become so mainstream it was disassociated with the source culture and even re-branded as indigenous (as a practice) to many other cultures."
If the wearer like you are is calling it an African style the problem dissipates, don't you think?
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I'm glad this silly myth is getting debunked day by day, especially as a person who has started his hair journey and has been getting more and more into the "anthropology" or history of "Black hair." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCnacDWAOFc&ab_channel=SnappyDragon
Ugh, white people with "dreads". These delusionals are your white Rastas. Uh, they're big Marley fans, they think they're Black. Semi-political, but mostly-- Smoke a lot of weed? Don't even get me started on you too! I live in the Bay Area, which means every August (except the past two) half the population of my town gets all done up to go to some thing in the desert, and I end up seeing a lot of this.
My hair may be curly, but it’s not curly enough to truly loc. Similar-looking hairstyles on straight hair have a different structure because they don’t have the coil in their texture. They’re basically long, cylindrical tangles, which I refer to as “matts”.
Loc-like hairstyles do have long histories in certain non-Black cultures, especially ones with trade connections to Africa : they have an extremely long history in Hindu religion and may also have been worn by the ancient Hebrew Nazirites. Loc-like styles also have a history among some Tibetan Bhuddists, Indigenous North Americans, Indigenous Australians, and possibly the Aztecs. However . . . none of these people are white.
So, Viking-age Norse hairstyles. This is probably the one I hear most often, despite how contrary it Actual Viking hairstyles is to the historical record. Guessing that’s got something to do with the frequent appropriation of Viking-age Norse imagery by white supremacists.
come come now my white people, we must be prim and proper, none of this mischievousness and rambunction
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Aesthetically doesn't mean anything, because once again the way African style locs is braided/done is NOT the same as East Indians or any other non-Black people. Plus East Indians have a more matted look anyways. So yea your bolded already fall flat. Watch the video again...
So you mean if I were to wear polish plates or wear my hair in the same style as some gurus from India then it would be Ok? Evn if the locs were more or less indistinguishable for the untrained eye (most people are not professional hair experts). Then at least no black American could accuse me for stealing (even if I could get in trouble with some Indians or the polish)?
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great Aesthetically doesn't mean anything, because once again the way African style locs is braided/done is NOT the same as East Indians or any other non-Black people. Plus East Indians have a more matted look anyways. So yea your bolded already fall flat. Watch the video again...
So you mean if I were to wear polish plates or wear my hair in the same style as some gurus from India then it would be Ok? Even if the locs were more or less indistinguishable for the untrained eye (most people are not professional hair experts). Then at least no black American could accuse me for stealing (even if I could get in trouble with some Indians or the polish)?
quote:Before I even continue, do you live in the USA or not? Because its very relevant.
It is not relevant since the problems will be there whether I am there or not. Do you live in Egypt since you now and then write about Egypt? Most people here on ES write a lot about Egypt without actually living there. Some have a lot of opinions about people in different African countries (and other places too), without actually living there, or without even having sat their foot there
The main point I want to mediate is that it is hypocritical of African Americans to complain over some white people wearing dreadlocs while at the same time certain African Americans claim to be the true Native Americans or that Africans were in the Americas first and things like that. Even if they are few their presence on the net is noticeable. At least the whites who wear locs mostly do not claim they were first in Africa or that they are the true Africans. They do not question the whole existence of black people.
The people claiming and usurping Native American culture is seen as a problem among some Native Americans whether they are few and many. That is what matters. It goes deeper than some locs.
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@Askia Notice the bait and switch tactics again. We know specifically the popularized style referenced. We as well as the lady in the video addressed it's ubiquity. The concept is easy to understand but alas logic resonates with blacks. So guess what, now it's time for the patronizing.
"Well, some Africans have had tattoos too. It might be hard to tell apart Maori Tribal sleeves from theirs. No Maori should accuse a black man of stealing or appropriation?"
"They eye of horus and the ankh looks like sacred sigils of other cultures. So it isn't appropriation to rock those either. (to no credit of the cultural source)"
"They also wear bird feathers and white garb for ritual ceremony in Africa, it'll be very hard for the untrained to notice the difference from Native american customs, so Native americans should shut f* up about appropriation if black people are wearing similar things"
-retard logic. Don't take the bait.Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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posted
Borrowing of hair styles, certain clothes and similar exist among many peoples. But to complain that some others wear African American style locs while not complaining over African Americans claiming other cultures or dressing up like other people is just hypocritical.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: @ Askia, Elmaestro, and Punos_Rey
So, just to make sure we're on the same page, you guys aren't actually arguing it's always wrong for non-Black people to wear their hair in dreadlocks or African-style braids, are you?
Beware Brandon, soon someone may accuse you for appropriation since you draw a lot of black women.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Borrowing of hair styles, certain clothes and similar exist among many peoples. But to complain that some others wear African American style locs while not complaining over African Americans claiming other cultures or dressing up like other people is just hypocritical.
No one here was complaining about either, but if I would complain about one I'd complain about the other. You can do well as to ignore the Nuance being explained to Brandon and chalk it up as collective "complaining" as if black people are a hive minded species but I'll just continue to expose your brain dead logic. You have an odd habit of patronizing. Notice also now that the problem is with hypocrisy and no longer with censorship.
How about you premise all of your posts protecting the identity of whichever culture you choose that day by denouncing Scandinavian depictions with Locs, Tribal tattoos and Horned helmets. And do it every single time! Remember folks, You can't call it out if someone who identifies with your tribe has done it before. Regardless if it has anything to do with you personally.
--retard logic attempt #2Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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posted
Your post is unintelligible so I will ignore it. But I can tell as much as that I think it's a worse kind of appropriation when some Afrocentric and wabocentric[1] extremists claim to be the "real" Native Americans. They are not content with borrowing a hairstyle, they want to take an entire culture from another people. Maybe some African Americans could be more active in calling those people out than complaining over locs. --------------------------------- [1] Wabocentric after "Wabo" = Wannabee aboriginal --------------
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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So, Viking-age Norse hairstyles. This is probably the one I hear most often, despite how contrary it Actual Viking hairstyles is to the historical record. Guessing that’s got something to do with the frequent appropriation of Viking-age Norse imagery by white supremacists.
Seems many want a bit of the Viking glory
(The pic is in reality from the movie Black Panther)
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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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10 is a 1979 American romantic comedy film written, produced and directed by Blake Edwards and starring Dudley Moore, Julie Andrews, Robert Webber and Bo Derek. It was considered a trendsetting film at the time of its release and became one of the year's biggest box-office hits. The film follows a middle-aged man who becomes infatuated with a young woman whom he has never met, leading to a comic chase and an encounter in Mexico.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
First it was fighting again censorship "Black people shouldn't be able to dictate what others wear or style their hair" -simple answer: black people can't dictate how others decorate or ornament themselves however universally it's appropriation of the worst kind to disassociate cultural elements from the parent culture"
Then it became [b]"calling out hypocrisy" Black people can't call out appropriation because there's some other irrelevant black people I seen on the internet dressed like native Americans" -simple answer: Black people aren't a monolithic hivemind. Saying a black person is not allowed identify cultural appropriation because other black people might be appropriating other cultures is asinine. It's just as stupid as saying a Scandinavian can't call out appropriation because other Scandinavians are being depicted with cultural adornments not of their own.
Now it's simply mockery. " post is unintelligible, Afrocentrics and Wabocentrics ruined my marriage!"
Truth is, she probably likes the African dreads on her Vikings. She just can't stomach the fact that it's African. 😂
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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posted
So maybe if a white person want to wear locs he maybe better make them more like polish plaits or Indian (from Asia) locs or like the made up viking locs above, then maybe he will not be accused of cultural appropriation (if not any polish or Indian people will react).
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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And the "locs" you claim these people have aren't even locs but really matted hair. Like I said if they were to get "locs" the African technique it would mess up their hair and cause balding because fine hair is NOT MEANT for those types of styles. And its already been proven that the Vikings did NOT have that type of locs(even in the video) so not sure why you posted it.
Additionally more and more younger Africans on the continent are rocking locs. Locs in Africa(outside of the youth) are associated with more spiritual journey.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: @Askia Notice the bait and switch tactics again. We know specifically the popularized style referenced. We as well as the lady in the video addressed it's ubiquity. The concept is easy to understand but alas logic resonates with blacks. So guess what, now it's time for the patronizing.
"Well, some Africans have had tattoos too. It might be hard to tell apart Maori Tribal sleeves from theirs. No Maori should accuse a black man of stealing or appropriation?"
"They eye of horus and the ankh looks like sacred sigils of other cultures. So it isn't appropriation to rock those either. (to no credit of the cultural source)"
"They also wear bird feathers and white garb for ritual ceremony in Africa, it'll be very hard for the untrained to notice the difference from Native american customs, so Native americans should shut f* up about appropriation if black people are wearing similar things"
-retard logic. Don't take the bait.
Yea, I just find it entertaining how these types find get so vigilante when Black people want to put certain barriers around certain elements of our culture we consider sacred. Lmfaooo... Just look at how one particular poster is spamming this thread. But yea I stopped engaging that poster. He/she doesn't even live in the USA.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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And the "locs" you claim these people have aren't even locs but really matted hair. Like I said if they were to get "locs" the African technique it would mess up their hair and cause balding because fine hair is NOT MEANT for those types of styles. And its already been proven that the Vikings did NOT have that type of locs(even in the video) so not sure why you posted it.
Additionally more and more younger Africans on the continent are rocking locs. Locs in Africa(outside of the youth) are associated with more spiritual journey.
My remark, was a reply to Snappy Dragon (I have added her name) whose fight this is not is, she seems to be virtue signaling, no disrespect to you - and saying in the video, first that white people doing it are Bob Marley fans trying to look black but then later on >>
quote: "9:27 So, Viking-age Norse hairstyles. This is probably the one I hear most often, despite how contrary it is to the historical record. Guessing that’s got something to do with the frequent appropriation of Viking-age Norse imagery by white supremacists.
^^ This doesn't make too much sense, are we to believe that supposedly trying to evoke rastas, this is part of white supremacists cultural appropriation of Nordics? And the whole thing is kind of late to be complain about. Hippie-ish white people have been doing their hair like this for how long? a couple of decades? To me this is like black people straightening their hair and dying it blond .
.
these are braids !! not even locs then are these even usurping dreadlocks?
quote: And the "locs" you claim these people have aren't even locs but really matted hair
Yes, that is what I was saying, if it's not even dreadlocks then where's the "appropriation"?
This whole "cultural appropriation" issue is old. When were people talking about this, 2014?
These are dredlocks
If this is a problem Mary J Blige and Niki Minaj is a problem
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: And as a person who's been to Africa 6 fucking times(more than you) and plan on going back 2 times next year, yes the fuck locs are big in Africa especially among certain ethnic groups like the Mau Mau who the Rastas got it from.
Mau Mau is not even a traditional African group. It was apolitical movement 1952-60.
Martin_084 • 3 mo. ago Dreadlocks in Kenya is associated with gangs - and whatnot. You become a target of the police, especially for these young guys who stay in the ghetto.
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
^^ More common in America than Africa, for sure and these days the shorter dred styles even more And if you see people. So some people in Africa who do wear them are probably more influenced by AAs then Kenyans, from American rap videos etc ______________________________________
In Nigeria, dreadlocks are entangled with beliefs about danger Published: September 19, 2019
A grown man wearing his hair in dreadlocks is bound to attract attention in Nigeria. And it’s not always positive attention. Many Nigerians, regardless of their education and status, view dreadlocked men as dangerous. The hairstyle sometimes even gets a violent reaction.
A popular phrase used by Yoruba people to describe dreadlocks is “a crazy person’s hair”....
In the 1970s and 80s, other Nigerian musicians like Majek Fashek were inspired by the fame of Jamaican reggae artists to begin styling their hair the same way. From the 1990s, Nigerian footballers joined in by wearing cornrows and dreadlocks.
Barring these exceptions, adults with unkempt hair are judged deviant beings who have become conduits for evil. Since it is difficult to differentiate between adults wearing dreadlocks as fashion statement from those with “evil dreadlocks”, people either flee from them or attack them out of fear and self preservation.
Black student at Texas high school suspended over hairstyle
Barbers Hill Independent School District prohibits male students from having hair extending below the eyebrows, ear lobes or top of a T-shirt collar, according to the student handbook. Additionally, hair on all students must be clean, well-groomed, geometrical and not an unnatural color or variation. The school does not require uniforms.
George's mother, Darresha George, and the family's attorney deny the teenager's hairstyle violates the dress code. The family last month filed a formal complaint with the Texas Education Agency and a federal civil rights lawsuit against the state’s governor and attorney general, alleging they failed to enforce a new law outlawing discrimination based on hairstyles.
The family alleges George's suspension and subsequent discipline violate the state’s CROWN Act, which took effect Sept. 1. The law, an acronym for “Create a Respectful and Open World for Natural Hair,” is intended to prohibit race-based hair discrimination and bars employers and schools from penalizing people because of hair texture or protective hairstyles including Afros, braids, dreadlocks, twists or Bantu knots.
A federal version passed in the U.S. House last year, but was not successful in the Senate.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Black student at Texas high school suspended over hairstyle
this I think is relatively more concerning, I think
I do think rules and legislation against African-American hairstyles on Black people are racist and stupid. I suspect they're like the "literacy tests" meant to disenfranchise Black voters back in the 19th century. They appear on paper to be based on hairstyle rather than race, but in practice, they're meant to discriminate against the people most commonly associated with those hairstyles.
Non-Blacks don't NEED these hairstyles to really grow out their hair. People with 4 type of hair depend on these type of protective styles for their hair to grow due to 4 type hair being very vulnerable. But also the fact that when these hairstyles are on Black people they are deemed "inappropriate" but on non-Black people its "exotic" or trendy. Again this is why certain Black people are bitter. And why we needed a damn "crown act" to protect ourselves from crap like this.
But hey us angry Afrocentrics are being "unreasonable."
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: this I think is relatively more concerning, I think
Black student at Texas high school suspended over hairstyle
Barbers Hill Independent School District prohibits male students from having hair extending below the eyebrows, ear lobes or top of a T-shirt collar, according to the student handbook. Additionally, hair on all students must be clean, well-groomed, geometrical and not an unnatural color or variation. The school does not require uniforms.
George's mother, Darresha George, and the family's attorney deny the teenager's hairstyle violates the dress code. The family last month filed a formal complaint with the Texas Education Agency and a federal civil rights lawsuit against the state’s governor and attorney general, alleging they failed to enforce a new law outlawing discrimination based on hairstyles.
The family alleges George's suspension and subsequent discipline violate the state’s CROWN Act, which took effect Sept. 1. The law, an acronym for “Create a Respectful and Open World for Natural Hair,” is intended to prohibit race-based hair discrimination and bars employers and schools from penalizing people because of hair texture or protective hairstyles including Afros, braids, dreadlocks, twists or Bantu knots.
A federal version passed in the U.S. House last year, but was not successful in the Senate.
quote: Bieber’s latest 2016 hairstyle will definitely go in the books for one of his most shocking.
Justin shared a photo on IG of him rocking cornrows while on vacation in St. Barts with his rumored girlfriend Hailey Baldwin, who he says influenced him to get his hair braided.
"Hailey made me get corn rows like an absolute douche bag, these will be off tomorrow trust me Danny"
not shocking
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Non-Blacks don't NEED these hairstyles to really grow out their hair. People with 4 type of hair depend on these type of protective styles for their hair to grow due to 4 type hair being very vulnerable. But also the fact that when these hairstyles are on Black people they are deemed "inappropriate" but on non-Black people its "exotic" or trendy. Again this is why certain Black people are bitter. And why we needed a damn "crown act" to protect ourselves from crap like this.
But hey us angry Afrocentrics are being "unreasonable."
Our argument was never gatekeeping but protecting parts of our culture we believe are sacred from being erased. See my Eminem example again. No one is (besides extreme haters) is telling Eminem to stop rapping because he is White instead many Black people respect Eminem. Why? Because he respects the culture, gives credit where its due and doesn't see it as a costume.
Its the same thing with British Punk stars during the British Invasion giving credit to Black Rhythm and Blues artists. Again showing respect and not ERASING the original ppl from said culture.
The Justin Timberlake Biebers, Kardashians, etc of the world its a costume for them and they either unwillingly or even sometimes willingly erase the original group of that culture. And tbh the whole "Vikings had dreadlocks" was really a weak argument by those who WANT to WILLINGLY appropriate to erase.
Not telling non-Black ppl to NOT wear Black hairstyles is a whole different ball game. But like I said "fine hair"(which is scientifically proven) can be damaged by African braiding techniques. Heck the products ppl with kinky hair use are usually took "heavy" for ppl with non-kinky hair.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: @BrandonP
Our argument was never gatekeeping but protecting parts of our culture we believe are sacred from being erased. See my Eminem example again. No one is (besides extreme haters) is telling Eminem to stop rapping because he is White instead many Black people respect Eminem. Why? Because he respects the culture, gives credit where its due and doesn't see it as a costume.
Its the same thing with British Punk stars during the British Invasion giving credit to Black Rhythm and Blues artists. Again showing respect and not ERASING the original ppl from said culture.
The Justin Timberlake Biebers, Kardashians, etc of the world its a costume for them and they either unwillingly or even sometimes willingly erase the original group of that culture. And tbh the whole "Vikings had dreadlocks" was really a weak argument by those who WANT to WILLINGLY appropriate to erase.
Not telling non-Black ppl to NOT wear Black hairstyles is a whole different ball game. But like I said "fine hair"(which is scientifically proven) can be damaged by African braiding techniques. Heck the products ppl with kinky hair use are usually took "heavy" for ppl with non-kinky hair.
Well said. Only thing missing is to elaborate on how appropriation is a trigger warning for potential genocide. But I can predict how a deep conversation point of that type will go around here.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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posted
Maybe the woman in the OP also could make a video about white people and black people mimicking Native American hairstyles. Native American peoples hair has for a long time been discriminated against. Already in the days of the residential schools Native children were forced to cut their hair to look more "civilized". Hair was used as a weapon in the ethnocide against indigenous peoples. Still both whites and blacks are now and then sporting hairstyles which were originally used by Native Americans.
One such hairstyle is the so called Mohawk hairstyle. It is a hairstyle that has deep traditional roots among indigenous peoples in the eastern woodlands of America, The style has been usurped and mimicked by both White and Black people.
The Internet site Afroculture.Net for example promotes Mohawk hairstyles for black men.
Archeopteryx Now are Black men trying to rebrand or claim Mohawks as apart of Black culture? No. And that website even GIVES Natives credit for the Mohawk and even mentions how it was made more mainstream by WHITE punk artists. Black men aren't even the only ones nor the first non-Natives to rock Mohawks. I agree with Elmaestro that you really do need to touch grass. Your weird obsession on what Black people can do and not do is cringe when you live all the way in Sweden. No offense.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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posted
Well it is still as much theft as if a white persons wear locs. You complain over Whites appropriating Black culture, but when Blacks appropriating Native culture you are trying to diminish the problem.
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (Matthew 7:3)
But maybe the woman in the OP will adress the appropriation of Native hairstyles, clothes and other things by both whites and blacks too.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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