So basically a bunch of white women lived in a extreme cold European environment for thousands of years. Then when the ice broke down...they quickly moved to Hot Africa...to a place which was becoming a extreme hot desert zone...makes sense...huhmmm complete sense. lol
They also make movies like Tarzan the King of the Jungle. And many other weird claims.
The Tuareg have slaves and a caste system to this day and historically had been the link between slave trading from slave trading from Central Africa to the Mediterranean. Wake the hell up Niger is one of the world’s poorest countries. Its economy is based on agriculture and subsistence farming, and life is particularly hard in the Ader region, which is in the Sahel and suffers from droughts. Around 85% of the region’s population are illiterate. In the mid-1800s the area was conquered by Tuareg warriors, under whom the economy became increasingly reliant on slave labour. It is estimated that in pre-colonial times up to 30-40% of the population may have had slave or servile status.
I don't care who looks like what, the Tuareg are backward and they exploit other Africans ancient Timbuktu, has been closed to tourists this year (kidnappings) and is now on the verge of being seized by Tuareg rebels, but it goes beyond that. It's important to remember-- though the Western media doesn't ever report it-- that the Tuaregs who are now trying to carve out their own country there, only "gave up" widespread slavery a few years ago and only because of a catastrophic drought. To the Tuaregs this was a temporary imposition and they still hold tens of thousands of people in Mali, Niger, Mauritania and Burkina Faso in slavery. In Mali, the Bella are still slaves to the Tuareg in all but name. Keeping that in mind will help you understand why people are fleeing from the northern part of the country as the Tuaregs advance on cities like Kidal, Gao and Timbuktu. In the 1950s, many people in the southern Sahara, mostly Tuareg, did not want to be ruled by Blacks (sound familiar?). The racial divide was an old one, but the French colonizers had nurtured it, even doped it up just before independence. They promised to create a separate Saharan territory expressly for the Tuareg, one that would stay under French rule. When independence came in 1960, and much of the Sahara became Malian territory, many Tuareg considered this a betrayal — the ‘other’ Whites had left them to be ruled by the Blacks. Some have been in revolt, on and off, ever since. This history isn’t pretty, and the racism cuts both ways. The extreme violence with which Mali put down a Tuareg revolt in the early ’60s didn’t help. They might have killed a lot of people, but they didn’t kill the dream. Today’s claims for an independent ‘Azawad’ are based on an old racial rhetoric and a newer nationalist veneer.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: You people are bufoons.
The Tuareg have slaves and a caste system to this day and historically had been the link between slave trading from slave trading from Central Africa to the Mediterranean. Wake the hell up Niger is one of the world’s poorest countries. Its economy is based on agriculture and subsistence farming, and life is particularly hard in the Ader region, which is in the Sahel and suffers from droughts. Around 85% of the region’s population are illiterate. In the mid-1800s the area was conquered by Tuareg warriors, under whom the economy became increasingly reliant on slave labour. It is estimated that in pre-colonial times up to 30-40% of the population may have had slave or servile status.
I don't care who looks like what, the Tuareg are backward and they exploit other Africans ancient Timbuktu, has been closed to tourists this year (kidnappings) and is now on the verge of being seized by Tuareg rebels, but it goes beyond that. It's important to remember-- though the Western media doesn't ever report it-- that the Tuaregs who are now trying to carve out their own country there, only "gave up" widespread slavery a few years ago and only because of a catastrophic drought. To the Tuaregs this was a temporary imposition and they still hold tens of thousands of people in Mali, Niger, Mauritania and Burkina Faso in slavery. In Mali, the Bella are still slaves to the Tuareg in all but name. Keeping that in mind will help you understand why people are fleeing from the northern part of the country as the Tuaregs advance on cities like Kidal, Gao and Timbuktu. In the 1950s, many people in the southern Sahara, mostly Tuareg, did not want to be ruled by Blacks (sound familiar?). The racial divide was an old one, but the French colonizers had nurtured it, even doped it up just before independence. They promised to create a separate Saharan territory expressly for the Tuareg, one that would stay under French rule. When independence came in 1960, and much of the Sahara became Malian territory, many Tuareg considered this a betrayal — the ‘other’ Whites had left them to be ruled by the Blacks. Some have been in revolt, on and off, ever since. This history isn’t pretty, and the racism cuts both ways. The extreme violence with which Mali put down a Tuareg revolt in the early ’60s didn’t help. They might have killed a lot of people, but they didn’t kill the dream. Today’s claims for an independent ‘Azawad’ are based on an old racial rhetoric and a newer nationalist veneer.
No, you are the bufoon here.
From the start I stated slavery was and is everywhere. But your claim is that darker skinned Tuaregs are merely slaves or slave descendants. And lightskinned are orignal from Europe or Eurasia. This is the problem here, with you and your racist European cohorts (insinuations). It's very typical for western journalism to write and synthesize in a certain way with specific words. It's part of what is called propaganda.
Never will you white folks claim that one group of Europeans wasn't the original population, thou they enslaved another European (white) population. Slavery is still a big thing in Europe. Most from the region, as it was during the entire history. You know.
Now, can you explain why Tuaregs rebelled in Mali or better yet had to flee?
Your interpreting inner conflicts in a weird way, with misinformation.
Lastly, why is it those geneticists don't write in their papers about Saqaliba and Mamluks or colonialist descendants from Spain, Portuagal, Italy, Turkey....?
As if it never happend.lol
It's all totally un-objective.
We even had tens of thousands of Turkish descendants quickly moving out of Libya, fleeing the country going back to Turkey, shortly before the revolution started.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: From the start I stated slavery was and is everywhere. But your claim is that darker skinned Tuaregs are merely slaves or slave descendants. And lightskinned are orignal from Europe or Eurasia.
I never said anything as simplistic as " lightskinned are orignal from Europe".
The Tuaregs are nomadic and are compised of many ethnicties of various skin tones in NA. Ikelan and Bella slave classes derive from Tuareg going South into regions closer to the eqautor where people are darker and less admixted
Iklan (slaves) or former slaves descendants of the captives. The latter, known as Bella in Mali and Bouzou in Niger, are of black or half-cast origin. Today they form a sizeable part of the Tuareg society and, like their former masters, they speak Tamasheq. The lklan, however, are distinguished by a number of categories: The lderfen, often settled and freed for several generations; The lborroliten, half-cast born of marriage between lmrad and lklan. They are freed by their parents; The Iklan-n-Eguef (captives of the dunes), shepherds and cultivators of lmajeren; The tent Iklan, servants living with their masters.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: From the start I stated slavery was and is everywhere. But your claim is that darker skinned Tuaregs are merely slaves or slave descendants. And lightskinned are orignal from Europe or Eurasia.
I never said anything as simplistic as " lightskinned are orignal from Europe".
The Tuaregs are nomadic and are compised of many ethnicties of various skin tones in NA. Ikelan and Bella slave classes derive from Tuareg going South into regions closer to the eqautor wher peopel are darker
Iklan (slaves) or former slaves descendants of the captives. The latter, known as Bella in Mali and Bouzou in Niger, are of black or half-cast origin. Today they form a sizeable part of the Tuareg society and, like their former masters, they speak Tamasheq. The lklan, however, are distinguished by a number of categories: The lderfen, often settled and freed for several generations; The lborroliten, half-cast born of marriage between lmrad and lklan. They are freed by their parents; The Iklan-n-Eguef (captives of the dunes), shepherds and cultivators of lmajeren; The tent Iklan, servants living with their masters.
No, you did not. But the suggestion was in the citations and quotes. That is the problem here. These writers don't write objective. They write from a Eurocentric mindset. In other words propaganda. And we can see this everywhere around the world.
As you did it again, only you don't realize it, perhaps.
The asses of those Europeans was captured because of the bullsh*t they write and claim. They come off as a friend, but it's really subliminal.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Not that I know much about what is going on in this thread but I thought I should put in a bit of information that I thought might help, which is that these pictures of Tuareg rebels as they called, are no different looking that numerous Khoisan and some Cape Nguni folk (who are mixed with the Khoi of course): Tuareg man, Mali
Tuareg woman, Mali
Tureg man, Mali
Posts: 49 | From: South Africa | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mali's President Amadou Toumani Toure (seated in purple) meets representatives of the largest armed group of Tuareg coming back from Libya at the presidential palace in Bamako on December 3, 2011. Malian army coup
Note the differences
_________________________________________ Thousands of Tuareg soldiers in Gaddafi’s employ fled Libya as fast as they could, usually in convoys laden with money and weapons, many returning home to Mali. By the end of 2011, a new rebel group was born, fighting for the independence of “Azawad”, or northern Mali. This isn’t the first Tuareg-led rebellion in Mali or surrounding countries, and it won’t be the last.
The Tuareg rebels are delighted at the chaos in the capital, and have already announced their intention to take advantage. Given that the Malian army is in no state right now to offer any resistance, and that any international support for Mali will dry up in the wake of the coup, it seems the rebels will have the upper hand over the coup-plotters, for now.
All this is bad news for the region as a whole. The government of Niger, especially, will be terrified that the success of a Tuareg rebellion in Mali will embolden the Tuaregs in Niger to do the same thing. The Americans will be worried that al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, already active in the region, will feed off the instability and emerge stronger than ever before. But most serious is the already dire humanitarian situation – the violence in the area, coupled with terrible crops, is creating conditions which could lead to famine if not urgently addressed. Already, hundreds of thousands of people have been displaced, but if the problems do spread to neighbouring countries then they will have nowhere else to go.
The coup in Mali – presuming it succeeds – will be a defining moment for the country and for the region as a whole, and not in a good way. It’s a massive step backwards which the people of the Sahel – already some of the poorest in the world – are in no position to afford.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I am sorry. I see no Malien Tuareg rebels. Please repost only the photo you say you posted of them. I am asking for one, and only one solo photo, that being the photo of Malien Tuareg rebels you claim to have already posted somewhere (in this thread?).
Yes you are right, I'm surprised dana didn't catch my error here.
Tha above are renegade Malian soldiers led by Amadou Haya Sanogo, not Tuareg rebels
The article's picture above is a little misleading, the title:
Malian Tuareg rebels seize key northern town of Timbuktu.
yet the photo below this headline shows renegade Malian soldiers led by Amadou Haya Sanogo who mounted a coup d’état out of anger at the government's inability to contain the two-month-old Tuareg rebellion in north of the country.
_______________________________________________
Here are some actual Tuareg rebels followed by a few Tuaregs (civilian)
Iddar Ag Ogazide is taking a break from digging and shovelling in 40C Malian Sahel heat. He is happy just to be working. "Today I am a free man, I am longer a slave. I am among men who are the same colour as me who consider me as a man. I earn 1,000 CFA ($2, £1) a day, and that covers my needs," he says
The idea of a salary is something Iddar is just getting used to, having dramatically escaped from his life in the hamlet of Intakabarte, outside Gao, in February this year. According to Iddar, his grandmother was bought as a slave by the Tuareg Ag Baye family, and from then on she was listed as taxable property on the Ag Baye's religious tax form. Iddar says he was inherited by his master, beaten several times, and never received pay or an education. The final straw for Iddar came when his three-year-old son Ahmed was taken away to work for a niece of the Ag Baye family. "I decided I would have to go and get him so I hatched a plan. I told my master that I needed to take Ahmed to his grandparents," he says. "I said we would both return the next day, but we never went back." Iddar was fortunate to find members of the Bamako-based human rights organisation Temedt to help him when he fled to Gao, about 1,200km north-east from the capital, Bamako. Harsh life According to Temedt, there may be thousands of people still living either in slavery or slavery-like conditions in modern Mali.
"The situation has not changed with the arrival of democracy," says Mohammed Ag Akeratane, the president of Temedt. Although the government formally ended slavery in the 1960s after independence, Temedt says it is still practised in the far north of the country between Berber-descended Tuareg nomads and darker-skinned Bella or Black Tamasheq people. It is also believed to exist in other groups such as Songhai and Peul. But many argue that the situation cannot truly be described as slavery. Life is harsh in the Sahara's hinterland - in towns such as Ansongo and Menaka much property and livestock remains in Tuareg hands. Some argue that with few jobs and opportunities, it may be easier for some Bella to live within what is regarded as the protection of a Tuareg family. "For example, I have an encampment and many people have come to live with us, seeking refuge from war and famine," says Mahmoud Ag Hattabo, the Tuareg mayor of Tinahamma near Gao. "They help us with rearing the animals and general work. "But this is not slavery like you would find in the Koran." 'Free to leave' The Malian authorities seem to agree "The Bella people are free to leave their masters if they wish," said a source, who asked not to be named, in Mali's Territorial Administration department. "If people came out to declare openly that they are slaves then of course the state would do something." But for Temedt, which means solidarity in the Tamasheq language of the north, it is time for Mali to face reality. "Slavery is taboo, no-one wants to talk about it," says Mr Ag Akeratane. "Particularly at the level of the authorities they will not accept that it persists." The case of Iddar Ag Ogazide, and several other escapees in Gao, is clear-cut for Anti-Slavery International, a London-based human rights organisation and campaign group which supports Temedt. "Like his parents before him, Iddar was born a slave, a status ascribed to him at birth, and grew up under the total control of a master who exacted labour from him for no remuneration", says Anti-Slavery International's Romana Cacchioli. "In my view Iddar's case is a clear case of slavery." Temedt has instructed a lawyer to work with Iddar to see if he has a case for compensation. But this is difficult because although Mali has signed international conventions against slavery and the nation's constitution states that all men are born equal, there is no domestic law banning the practice. "The difficulty of constructing a case for Iddar demonstrates the need for a law criminalising slavery in Mali," says Mr Cacchioli. former slave "Iddar Ag Ogazide" and wife
Not that I know much about what is going on in this thread but I thought I should put in a bit of information that I thought might help, which is that these pictures of Tuareg rebels as they called, are no different looking that numerous Khoisan and some Cape Nguni folk (who are mixed with the Khoi of course): Tuareg man, Mali
Posts: 49 | From: South Africa | Registered: Feb 2012
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Mali's President Amadou Toumani Toure (seated in purple) meets representatives of the largest armed group of Tuareg coming back from Libya at the presidential palace in Bamako on December 3, 2011. Malian army coup
Note the differences
_________________________________________ Thousands of Tuareg soldiers in Gaddafi’s employ fled Libya as fast as they could, usually in convoys laden with money and weapons, many returning home to Mali. By the end of 2011, a new rebel group was born, fighting for the independence of “Azawad”, or northern Mali. This isn’t the first Tuareg-led rebellion in Mali or surrounding countries, and it won’t be the last.
The Tuareg rebels are delighted at the chaos in the capital, and have already announced their intention to take advantage. Given that the Malian army is in no state right now to offer any resistance, and that any international support for Mali will dry up in the wake of the coup, it seems the rebels will have the upper hand over the coup-plotters, for now.
All this is bad news for the region as a whole. The government of Niger, especially, will be terrified that the success of a Tuareg rebellion in Mali will embolden the Tuaregs in Niger to do the same thing. The Americans will be worried that al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, already active in the region, will feed off the instability and emerge stronger than ever before. But most serious is the already dire humanitarian situation – the violence in the area, coupled with terrible crops, is creating conditions which could lead to famine if not urgently addressed. Already, hundreds of thousands of people have been displaced, but if the problems do spread to neighbouring countries then they will have nowhere else to go.
The coup in Mali – presuming it succeeds – will be a defining moment for the country and for the region as a whole, and not in a good way. It’s a massive step backwards which the people of the Sahel – already some of the poorest in the world – are in no position to afford.
Perhaps you don't know, but the Tuareg in Mali make up a small portion. They aren't in the position to enslave masses of people. They need to keep it on the down...hush hush....but yes, because of the historic events they are being disliked by many Africans, surrounding them.
Tuaregs had to flee from Mali. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
God this person is so stupid..LMAO. Do you even know who the other red skinned people are in your quote??
So now according to lioness Logic the Amharas and Tebou people are not black either...LMAO
We already know what the Noble Taureg look like.
The Songhai etc. who the Taureg are supposed to be lighter than and who they took slaves from Also held slaves, Im sure many POW from defeated Tauregs but I doubt Europeans such as yourself will mention that..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The Tuareg refer to themselves as "red-skinned," like most other Saharan peoples including the Maures, Tubu, and Amhara. Slaves were taken as prisoners of war as the Tuareg moved south beginning in the 11th century AD, and many slaves may have originated among Songhay, Djerma and Hausa communities, groups that also held slaves.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ausar Amen8: Not that I know much about what is going on in this thread but I thought I should put in a bit of information that I thought might help, which is that these pictures of Tuareg rebels as they called, are no different looking that numerous Khoisan and some Cape Nguni folk (who are mixed with the Khoi of course): Tuareg man, Mali
Tuareg woman, Mali
Tureg man, Mali
No one picture represents the nomadic Tuaregs they are comprised of a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds. However except for a relaitively light skin tone of SOME Turaegs they do not look like Khosians who typically have wide faces and eyes that can look similar to East Asians
One example of some Turaeg rebels: Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ausar Amen8: Not that I know much about what is going on in this thread but I thought I should put in a bit of information that I thought might help, which is that these pictures of Tuareg rebels as they called, are no different looking that numerous Khoisan and some Cape Nguni folk (who are mixed with the Khoi of course): Tuareg man, Mali
Tuareg woman, Mali
Tureg man, Mali
No one picture represents the nomadic Tuaregs they are comprised of a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds. However except for a relaitively light skin tone of SOME Turaegs they do not look like Khosians who typically have wide faces and eyes that can look similar to East Asians
One example of some Turaeg rebels:
Tuaregs cluster close with Beja type. More like Cushitic. Therefore are E-M81 genetic drifted.
And as you can see one is dark complected and the other light complected. Side-by-side. Fighting for one cause as always has been the case.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: God this person is so stupid..LMAO. Do you even know who the other red skinned people are in your quote??
So now according to lioness Logic the Amharas and Tebou people are not black either...LMAO
We already know what the Noble Taureg look like.
The Songhai etc. who the Taureg are supposed to be lighter than and who they took slaves from Also held slaves, Im sure many POW from defeated Tauregs but I doubt Europeans such as yourself will mention that..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The Tuareg refer to themselves as "red-skinned," like most other Saharan peoples including the Maures, Tubu, and Amhara. Slaves were taken as prisoners of war as the Tuareg moved south beginning in the 11th century AD, and many slaves may have originated among Songhay, Djerma and Hausa communities, groups that also held slaves.
although many Tuaregs are dark mixed looking people, in Mali they often refer to themselves as "whites" see the film I have up, the other thread. I am not saying they are "white" as per American definitions I am reporting what they call themselves. Some look black African and others, often of higher caste look like non-African Arabs. This is a fact
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Look at the matrilinial genetic studies of Ottoni, the significant admixture is clear why are people arguing this?
>hardcore Salafists who want to impose sharia
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: God this person is so stupid..LMAO. Do you even know who the other red skinned people are in your quote??
So now according to lioness Logic the Amharas and Tebou people are not black either...LMAO
We already know what the Noble Taureg look like.
The Songhai etc. who the Taureg are supposed to be lighter than and who they took slaves from Also held slaves, Im sure many POW from defeated Tauregs but I doubt Europeans such as yourself will mention that..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The Tuareg refer to themselves as "red-skinned," like most other Saharan peoples including the Maures, Tubu, and Amhara. Slaves were taken as prisoners of war as the Tuareg moved south beginning in the 11th century AD, and many slaves may have originated among Songhay, Djerma and Hausa communities, groups that also held slaves.
although many Tuaregs are dark mixed looking people, in Mali they often refer to themselves as "whites" see the film I have up, the other thread. I am not saying they are "white" as per American definitions I am reporting what they call themselves. Some look black African and others, often of higher caste look like non-African Arabs. This is a fact
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Look at the matrilinial genetic studies of Ottoni, the significant admixture is clear why are people arguing this?
I don't think anyone is saying he has no admixture. It's more the correlation of historic events. What, when... how...
The survey of diagnostic markers 4313, 8966, 9148 and 14560 in 50 individuals characterized by the CRS-263 haplotype showed that all of these clustered within the two novel sub-clades H1v1 and H1w identified by initial sequencing of the eight entire mtDNAs characterized by the CRS-263 control-region motif.
Overall the 64 Libyan Tuareg mtDNAs belonging to H1 (Table S2) were mostly distributed between the clades H1v1 (38%) and H1w(53%), with a minor component (9%) belonging instead to clade H1x. Within H1v1, half of the Libyan Tuareg (i.e. 12 individuals, equal to 50%) were characterized by the transition at np 9148 (sub-clade H1v1a) and half by the transition at np 14560 (sub-clade H1v1b).
-It is worth noting the extensive village-specificity of the sub-clades.
Indeed H1v1b and H1w harbored frequencies of 22% and 63% in Al Awaynat, but were not found at all in Tahala, and 80% of the mtDNAs from the village of Tahala were members of H1v1a in contrast to the only four out of 54 (7%) from the village of Al Awaynat. Similar to H1v1a, haplogroup H1x was also shared between the two groups with two instances in Tahala and four in Al Awaynat.
To further evaluate the extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya relative to that of Moroccans, Tunisians and Sahelian Tuareg samples, HVS-I data from the four groups were employed to calculate the diversity indices reported in Table 2.
-The sharp homogeneity of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg, who show extremely low values of haplotype diversity (0.165), is straightforward...
-Moroccans, Tunisians and the Tuareg from Sahel were found to be much more diverse than the Libyan Tuareg, with haplotype diversities of 0.577, 0.633 and 0.595, respectively.
-Similarly, the values of nucleotide diversity and average number of nucleotide differences observed in Morocco (0.309 and 1.056), Tunisia (0.316 and 1.081) and among the Tuareg from Sahel (0.234 and 0.800) are all much higher than those of the Libyan Tuareg (0.098 and 0.335).
-This process of autochthonous differentiation continues in the Libyan Tuareg who, probably due to isolation and recent founder events, are characterized by village-specific maternal mtDNA lineages.
-Recently, an extremely high incidence of H1 (61%) has been reported in a Tuareg population from the Central Sahara, in Libya [29]
.
Ironically, >hardcore Salafists who want to impose sharia.
It's an Islamic country. Indonisia wants to impose sharia also.
quote:Originally posted by Ausar Amen8: Not that I know much about what is going on in this thread but I thought I should put in a bit of information that I thought might help, which is that these pictures of Tuareg rebels as they called, are no different looking that numerous Khoisan and some Cape Nguni folk (who are mixed with the Khoi of course): Tuareg man, Mali
You do Not know what you are talking about. The and the San vary in how they look. Some look like Ethiopians actually while the majority have epicanthic folds. And by the way, the Khoi and the San are quite distinct.
Tuareg woman, Mali
Tureg man, Mali
No one picture represents the nomadic Tuaregs they are comprised of a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds. However except for a relaitively light skin tone of SOME Turaegs they do not look like Khosians who typically have wide faces and eyes that can look similar to East Asians
One example of some Turaeg rebels:
Posts: 49 | From: South Africa | Registered: Feb 2012
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posted
You don't know much about Africans or Africa. The Taureg are black and have been seen as such for time-memorial. Its just a recent fad of the Europeans to make the Tauregs "Whites". The Tauregs are blacks, no matter what they call themselves. Same with the Amharas, Tebu, Sudanese, Fallahin etc who make the same claims.
Heck their The Ancestors of the Taureg, the Garamantes, were compared to Africans living in Modern Day Northern Sudan, probably the Beja clans who still today live in places like Aswan etc.
The closest relatives to the Taureg are the Beja another African people.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QB] although many Tuaregs are dark mixed looking people, in Mali they often refer to themselves as "whites" see the film I have up, the other thread. I am not saying they are "white" as per American definitions I am reporting what they call themselves.
Look at the matrilinial genetic studies of Ottoni, the significant admixture is clear why are people arguing this?
>hardcore Salafists who want to impose sharia [/QUOTE]
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Do not be jealous, Svenska.
You also had your veiled people in Circassia somewhere - probably in a harem.
Look you were even in Morocco not just brought into Timbuktu by the Tuareg - The Moors: A Comprehensive Description in the chapter "Slavery among the Moors" says “Another way in which the Europeans have been frequently outwitted is by the importation of Circassian and other slaves and eunuchs from Turkey via braltar or Algiers in foreign vessels, usually entered as members of the family of their master. Notwithstanding the nominal prohibition of the trade in the Turkish Empire, there are houses on the Bosporus where young children are trained for the hareems by instruction in music and dancing, and even in English and French, as well as in the degrading arts by which the women of these lands endeavour to secure the favour of their lords. These, too, are sometimes brought to Morocco, where they fetch high prices, if offered at all to the public ; as much, sometimes, as a couple of hundred pounds or more, of which they are very proud..."
Yes that description was regard to Morocco Svenska not Algeria.
Be proud Svenska - “These women are beautiful in the eyes of all nations; they are sought after in all parts of the world: they bear the sway in all the seraglios of Asia, Africa, and Europe, because they possess that union of pleasing features, that just proportion in all the parts of the body, that freshness, those brilliant colours,..." The Circassians, Miscellany [NJ], Jul 15, 1805: 23
Yup, and the Tuareg are central to trade and always have been traders within the Sahara/ Sahel region. With those surrounding them.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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''The Tuarags have Caucasoid features and are tall.. with heavy brow ridges.'' - Ethnological elements of Africa, Robert Gayre, 1966, p. 58
''The physical characteristics of the Tuareg are those of the Caucasian'' - The Tuareg of the Sahara. H. R. Palmer Journal of the Royal African Society Vol. 31, No. 123 (Apr., 1932), pp. 153-166
Though yes, they have some Negroid admixture through recent intermarriage...
''...the Tuareg - have a mixture of African and Caucasoid genes'' - The history and geography of human genes, Cavalli-Sforza, 1994, p. 194
The original Tuareg's however were Caucasoid Berbers.
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posted
lol at this ignorant retarded european Brit above, who doesn't no a damn thing about the analogy and traditions. Nor do those writers he quoted.
NBP supporter with a "being captured, kidnaping fetish" by Tuaregs. What can we expect?
Berbers aren't caucasiod and Tuaregs are certainly not!
Idiotic european nonsense!
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''The genetic proximity observed between the Berbers and southern Europeans reveals that these groups shared a common ancestor'' - Coudray et al. 2008
''The Berber populations nearer the Mediterranean coast were probably Caucasoids. There is little doubt that they came from the Middle East, and they have occupied the region since the Neolithic or even earlier. Experienced sailors like other Neolithic peoples, they colonized the Canary Islands. When the Spaniards conquered these islands in the fifteenth century, they found a distinct population with some blond-haired and blue-eyed people -traits that are still evident among some Berbers in Morocco. They spoke Guanche, an Afroasiatic Berber language. By the time the Spanish arrived, they had lost the ability to sail.'' - Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Genes, Peoples and Languages, Penguin, 2001, p.122
''The third discrete racial element in Africa is the Caucasoid, which, as indicated earlier, first entered the continent in massive invasions about 15,000 years ago, certainly from Western Asia and possibly also from Europe. The descendants of those invaders who are still fully or essentially Caucasoid are the Berbers.'' - Carleton S. Coon, The Living Races of Man, New York: Alfred A Knopf, 1965, p.115
''After having achieved this immense work, an important scientific conclusion remains to be drawn: the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis of hair, carried out by four laboratories: Judiciary Medecine (Professor Ceccaldi), Société L'Oréal, Atomic Energy Commission, and Institut Textile de France showed that Ramses II was a 'leucoderm', that is a fair-skinned man, near to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterraneans, or briefly, of the Berbers of Africa.'' - Christiane Desroches Noblecourt, Colette Roubet, Lionel Balout, La Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à l'Égyptologie, Paris, Rech. sur les Civilisations, 1985, p. 383
''Caucasoid mtDNA (maternal) sequences, labeled L3E and U6, were detected at frequencies of 96% in Moroccan Berbers, 82% in Algerian Berbers and 78% in non-Berber Moroccans, compared with only 4% in a Senegalese population.'' - Rando et al. 1998.
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quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: Berbers are Caucasoid.
''The genetic proximity observed between the Berbers and southern Europeans reveals that these groups shared a common ancestor'' - Coudray et al. 2008
''The Berber populations nearer the Mediterranean coast were probably Caucasoids. There is little doubt that they came from the Middle East, and they have occupied the region since the Neolithic or even earlier. Experienced sailors like other Neolithic peoples, they colonized the Canary Islands. When the Spaniards conquered these islands in the fifteenth century, they found a distinct population with some blond-haired and blue-eyed people -traits that are still evident among some Berbers in Morocco. They spoke Guanche, an Afroasiatic Berber language. By the time the Spanish arrived, they had lost the ability to sail.'' - Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Genes, Peoples and Languages, Penguin, 2001, p.122
''The third discrete racial element in Africa is the Caucasoid, which, as indicated earlier, first entered the continent in massive invasions about 15,000 years ago, certainly from Western Asia and possibly also from Europe. The descendants of those invaders who are still fully or essentially Caucasoid are the Berbers.'' - Carleton S. Coon, The Living Races of Man, New York: Alfred A Knopf, 1965, p.115
''After having achieved this immense work, an important scientific conclusion remains to be drawn: the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis of hair, carried out by four laboratories: Judiciary Medecine (Professor Ceccaldi), Société L'Oréal, Atomic Energy Commission, and Institut Textile de France showed that Ramses II was a 'leucoderm', that is a fair-skinned man, near to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterraneans, or briefly, of the Berbers of Africa.'' - Christiane Desroches Noblecourt, Colette Roubet, Lionel Balout, La Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à l'Égyptologie, Paris, Rech. sur les Civilisations, 1985, p. 383
''Caucasoid mtDNA (maternal) sequences, labeled L3E and U6, were detected at frequencies of 96% in Moroccan Berbers, 82% in Algerian Berbers and 78% in non-Berber Moroccans, compared with only 4% in a Senegalese population.'' - Rando et al. 1998.
Berbers aren't cacasoid, THEY DO HAVE ADMIXTURE that of Eurasian females!
They are intermediate. Making up a multiethnic group of people. And also multi-diverse. The name Berber is simply a CLUSTER WORD for many tribes.
From the top of my head. U6 makes up the downstream, North African component: U6: 9.5 %. generally makes up in Berbers due to Moorish connections with Spain! Algeria had some populations with a pretty high frequency of this marker. But in general not!
The downstream and East African genetic drift, North African component: E1b1b (mainly E-M81) 50-90 %!
Depending on the population and region!
Caucasian
1807, from Caucasus Mountains, between the Black and Caspian seas; applied to the "white" race 1795 (in Ger.) by Ger. anthropologist Johann Blumenbach, because their supposed ancestral homeland lay there; since abandoned as a historical/anthropological term. Lit. meaning "resident or native of the Caucasus" is from 1843.
The mountain range name is from Gk. kaukhasis, said by Pliny ("Natural History," book six, chap. XVII) to be from a Scythian word similar to kroy-khasis, lit. "(the mountain) ice-shining, white with snow." But possibly from a Pelasgian root *kau- meaning "mountain."
Berbers are multiethnic and a multimixture!lol
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
A history of the Maghrib in the Islamic period
By Jamil M. Abun-Nasr
Cambridge University Press, 1987 - page 5.
..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures"
"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."
"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: You people are bufoons.
The Tuareg have slaves and a caste system to this day and historically had been the link between slave trading from slave trading from Central Africa to the Mediterranean. Wake the hell up Niger is one of the world’s poorest countries. Its economy is based on agriculture and subsistence farming, and life is particularly hard in the Ader region, which is in the Sahel and suffers from droughts. Around 85% of the region’s population are illiterate. In the mid-1800s the area was conquered by Tuareg warriors, under whom the economy became increasingly reliant on slave labour. It is estimated that in pre-colonial times up to 30-40% of the population may have had slave or servile status.
I don't care who looks like what, the Tuareg are backward and they exploit other Africans ancient Timbuktu, has been closed to tourists this year (kidnappings) and is now on the verge of being seized by Tuareg rebels, but it goes beyond that. It's important to remember-- though the Western media doesn't ever report it-- that the Tuaregs who are now trying to carve out their own country there, only "gave up" widespread slavery a few years ago and only because of a catastrophic drought. To the Tuaregs this was a temporary imposition and they still hold tens of thousands of people in Mali, Niger, Mauritania and Burkina Faso in slavery. In Mali, the Bella are still slaves to the Tuareg in all but name. Keeping that in mind will help you understand why people are fleeing from the northern part of the country as the Tuaregs advance on cities like Kidal, Gao and Timbuktu. In the 1950s, many people in the southern Sahara, mostly Tuareg, did not want to be ruled by Blacks (sound familiar?). The racial divide was an old one, but the French colonizers had nurtured it, even doped it up just before independence. They promised to create a separate Saharan territory expressly for the Tuareg, one that would stay under French rule. When independence came in 1960, and much of the Sahara became Malian territory, many Tuareg considered this a betrayal — the ‘other’ Whites had left them to be ruled by the Blacks. Some have been in revolt, on and off, ever since. This history isn’t pretty, and the racism cuts both ways. The extreme violence with which Mali put down a Tuareg revolt in the early ’60s didn’t help. They might have killed a lot of people, but they didn’t kill the dream. Today’s claims for an independent ‘Azawad’ are based on an old racial rhetoric and a newer nationalist veneer.
Romans enslaved other Europeans and exploited them to no end. Yet Rome is one of the pillars by which Western Society is based on. My point is, what's your point? Toureg are black people they have always been black. They enslaved Africans as well as Europeans (which is why some of them are white now).
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Good post bro, I love how eurocentric researches like to play dumb. MILLIONS of whites, both men and women were enslaved in North Africa hence the mongrelization of the population. Yet they want to attribute to some "ancient" influx of magical, mystical white people. Didn't happen. Whites were enslaves by the MILLIONS, changed the face of North Africa, end of story. Africans do not do things in half measures. We go ALL in and keep doing it until its all gone. So yeah, its only natural for Africans I mean, to have done what they did. It is also only natural for whites to have responded the way they did.
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You don't know much about Africans or Africa. The Taureg are black and have been seen as such for time-memorial. Its just a recent fad of the Europeans to make the Tauregs "Whites". The Tauregs are blacks, no matter what they call themselves. Same with the Amharas, Tebu, Sudanese, Fallahin etc who make the same claims.
Heck their The Ancestors of the Taureg, the Garamantes, were compared to Africans living in Modern Day Northern Sudan, probably the Beja clans who still today live in places like Aswan etc.
The closest relatives to the Taureg are the Beja another African people.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QB] although many Tuaregs are dark mixed looking people, in Mali they often refer to themselves as "whites" see the film I have up, the other thread. I am not saying they are "white" as per American definitions I am reporting what they call themselves.
Look at the matrilinial genetic studies of Ottoni, the significant admixture is clear why are people arguing this?
>hardcore Salafists who want to impose sharia
[/QUOTE] Man, the Europeans will still some ish, wont they? Liked Egypt, they stole that, like science, stole that from Africa. Liked history of the diaspora, stole and marginalized that as well. Your not careful, if you post to much good information on these boards, they might still you too.
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quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: @TrollPatrol
Good post bro, I love how eurocentric researches like to play dumb. MILLIONS of whites, both men and women were enslaved in North Africa hence the mongrelization of the population. Yet they want to attribute to some "ancient" influx of magical, mystical white people. Didn't happen. Whites were enslaves by the MILLIONS, changed the face of North Africa, end of story. Africans do not do things in half measures. We go ALL in and keep doing it until its all gone. So yeah, its only natural for Africans I mean, to have done what they did. It is also only natural for whites to have responded the way they did.
Yes, they are dishonest folks.
Even up till this and time Spain has occupied space in part of Morocco.
And the name Casablanca speaks volumes.
To claim Berbers as europeans/ whites/ cacasoid is just another crazy claim. Despite of all the admixture they still look like this.
They also had this little Saami theory...
Well check this out.
So now, Hg U* came from the Saami, Northern Europe?
Problematic is, how did these females end up in North Africa, shortly after the ice age? If they came from Finland. A place historically known for hunter gathering. U6 is not overall, and only makes up 9%, except for some places in North Africa where it reaches higher amounts.
The genetics of the Saami people and their language
(Paper read by Carl O. Nordling on the 9th International Finno-Ugrian Congress, Tartu 2000.)
Interesting to look at too is Saami historic relation as enslaved people by the Vikings.
I have not read this book for myself, yet. I just found out about it.
The Scandinavians from the Vendel period to the tenth century
And enslaved North Africans taken to Northern Europe.
Vikings raided North Africa in 861AD, taking slaves back to the north. The slaves become known as blue men, in reference to their dark skins. Enno is just such a slave. He's proud and bitter and disobedient, so he has been passed from master to master - desired for the novelty of his skin, but just as soon discarded for his recalcitrance. His latest master is Ohthere, a Viking explorer and trader loyal to Harald Fairhair and the sworn enemy of the pirate Sulke.
quote:Despite of all the admixture they still look like this
No they don't. You clearly know nothing on the racial makeup of Berbers.
The genetic composition of Berbers is as follows:
75% NW African Upper Paleolithic (H35, H36, and H38), 13% Neolithic (H58 and H71), 4% historic European gene flow (group IX, H50, H52), and 8% recent sub-Saharan African (H22 and H28).
Source: Am. J. Hum. Genet., 68:1019-1029, 2001.
So recent Negroid admixture is only 8%, and recent European gene flow as small as 4%.
The Berbers are majority of indigenous North African Caucasoid stock.
What the average Berber looks like -
Predominantly Caucasoid.
YES THEY DO!
HE IS ALGERIAN REMEMBER!!!!!!!
TELL, WHAT IS IS ETHIC BACKGROUND! WHICH BERBER SUBGROUP ? LOOOOOOL
Add he is from the North African COAST!!!
A region where a lot of invasions have taken place!
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
"And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
From: Procopius, History of the Wars, 7 vols., trans. H. B. Dewing (Cambridge, Mass., and London: Harvard University Press & Wm. Heinemann, 1914; reprint ed., 1953-54), II.23-73.
Scanned by: J. S. Arkenberg, Dept. of History, Cal. State Fullerton. Prof. Arkenberg has modernized the text. In 406 the Vandals advanced from Pannonia by way of Gaul, which they devastated terribly, into Spain, where they settled in 411. From 427 their king was Genseric (Gaiseric), who in 429 landed in North Africa with about 80,000 of his followers.
In this study we attempted to better elucidate the ancient African genetic background in the northwest African area, particularly in Tunisia. To this aim, we focused our study on Berber populations that are considered representative of the ancient North African populations that probably derived from Neolithic Capsians.
During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004).
At present, they are restricted to some isolates in the south who maintain the Berber language and to some populations in the north who lack an origin language.
Many genetic studies on Tunisian Berber populations demonstrate the heterogeneity of Berbers with respect to European and sub-Saharan African contributions and the mosaic structure of Tunisian Berber populations with an absence of ethnic, linguistic, and geographic effects (Cherni et al. 2010).
Pottery
I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond.
The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition.
So in conclusion , to suggest that the Vandals didn't reach the Atlas mountains of Morocco and considering this as impossible or as plausible is highly impeccable. Considering the fact that these groups moved into the mountains to remain secure, this is very well known, at the time of the Arab conquest. It was only 130 years later that the Arabs came in. The Vandals came in the 6th century the Arabs in the 7th. The root of these Germanic Vandal people is eventually at North Europe. There is where they can be traced back to. It also shows how the regions was already destabilized. This also explains the already indigenous Moroccan dark brown complected vs the enslaved Africans from the south into Morocco. Actually facilitated by the Byzantines, Vandal types.
Claiming there is was no trace of them any longer only after 130 years, is simply ridiculous. Knowing that they moved in 80.000 strong. Whiles have stayed there for 3 centuries, until the Arabs came in. Did they all disappear, all of a sudden???
*Also, one should take inconsideration the many converts to Islam by groups such as the Iberians, likely the descendants of the Vandals and others who came into North Africa over time remain there till this day.
Thus I propose; before the invasion by Islam as Moors, into South Europe, we should understand that North Africa was already invaded many times by groups from Europe, shifting the populations demographic and ethnographic physical appearance. Autosomal is evident of the many admixtures within several Berber tribes. Recorded history backs this up. So indeed the admixture makes it very complicated. Saying one berber is fake and the other is not is a bit off the radar. However, they are indigenous to Africa.
* The Northern part of the Atlas area is close to the Mediterranean sea, before one enters the rest of Morocco one needs to enter there first, known as the RIF. Everyone knowledgeable of history knows that the Vandals entered there. There is no discussion about that.
[IMG]http://tinyurl.com/c99m7bk [/IMG]
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The average Berber is only 8% Negroid and 92% Caucasoid. In certain regions, the Negroid admixture is far less. I do not consider anything below 10% admixture particularly significant, it doesn't much show in the phenotype. Berbers are predominantly Caucasoid, and largely descend from Palaeolithic North Africans...
Annals of Human Genetics Volume 62 - Issue 06 - November 1998
From Table 4, page 545
Caucasoid Sequences
Portugal 97% Moroccan Berbers 96%
Moroccan Berbers are only 4% Negroid on average, nearly the same as the southern Portugese who are 2.7 - 3% Negroid through the recent slave trade.
So Moroccan Berbers are as White/Caucasoid as the Portugese.
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quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: No Mike.
The average Berber is only 8% Negroid and 92% Caucasoid. In certain regions, the Negroid admixture is far less. I do not consider anything below 10% admixture particularly significant, it doesn't much show in the phenotype. Berbers are predominantly Caucasoid, and largely descend from Palaeolithic North Africans...
Annals of Human Genetics Volume 62 - Issue 06 - November 1998
From Table 4, page 545
Caucasoid Sequences
Portugal 97% Moroccan Berbers 96%
Moroccan Berbers are only 4% Negroid on average, nearly the same as the southern Portugese who are 2.7 - 3% Negroid through the recent slave trade.
So Moroccan Berbers are as White/Caucasoid as the Portugese.
IS THIS BOY DUMB OR WHAT????????
YOUR 8% EXAMPLE IS SUB SAHARAN FEMALE!! GO FIGURE, YOU DUMMY!
PAPA = PATERNAL Y-DNA IS EAST AFRICAN GENETIC DRIFT!!! (BLACK AFRICAN DUDES)
African female heritage in Iberia: a reassessment of mtDNA lineage distribution in present times.
Although for haplogroup U6 the documented event that is demographically compatible is the Islamic period (beginning of the 8th century to the end of the 15th century),
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
Hum Biol. 2005 Apr;77(2):213-29.
Pereira L, et al
African female heritage in Iberia: a reassessment of mtDNA lineage distribution in present times.
Although for haplogroup U6 the documented event that is demographically compatible is the Islamic period (beginning of the 8th century to the end of the 15th century), Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
LMFAO, So true man. I mean damn dude, saying the Taureg are white is like saying the Irish are Chinese or the Anglo Saxons are blacks. The Taureg have never been associated with Whites going back to the Greco-Roman eta their ancestors were classified with Africans and said to resemble folks from Northern Sudan.
Then we have all the info from the Islamic period where the Tauregs are all classified as belonging to Ham, Blacks, etc. We even have the words from the Tauregs themselves when they controlled Timbucktu, and had scholars there.
So I find it quite funny that White people are up in here trying to claim the Taureg...LMFAO. Then you notice that these same people claiming the Tauregs are the same folks talking about how Africans live in "Mud Huts" etc, when alot of the Mud Architecture in places like Mali etc. is influenced by the Tauregs and other Saharan Berbers.
If Lioness or Cassite had taken their white Asses to the Saharah prior to colonialism, they'd gotten their heads chopped off or been enslaved..Only to die of Sun Cancer...lol..Ive heard stories about the Dangers white people faced often passing off as Turks and Arabs for their safety.
Like I said we already know what the Noble Tauregs look like. The Leuko-Derm Tauregs are hardly ever Nobles. Even the Intermediate Tauregs resemble blacks, so its just funny to sit back and watch folks who claim to be proud of their white heritage scramble to claim a Bunch of black and Dark skinned Nomadic Africans..lol
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You don't know much about Africans or Africa. The Taureg are black and have been seen as such for time-memorial. Its just a recent fad of the Europeans to make the Tauregs "Whites". The Tauregs are blacks, no matter what they call themselves. Same with the Amharas, Tebu, Sudanese, Fallahin etc who make the same claims.
Heck their The Ancestors of the Taureg, the Garamantes, were compared to Africans living in Modern Day Northern Sudan, probably the Beja clans who still today live in places like Aswan etc.
The closest relatives to the Taureg are the Beja another African people.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QB] although many Tuaregs are dark mixed looking people, in Mali they often refer to themselves as "whites" see the film I have up, the other thread. I am not saying they are "white" as per American definitions I am reporting what they call themselves.
Look at the matrilinial genetic studies of Ottoni, the significant admixture is clear why are people arguing this?
>hardcore Salafists who want to impose sharia
Man, the Europeans will still some ish, wont they? Liked Egypt, they stole that, like science, stole that from Africa. Liked history of the diaspora, stole and marginalized that as well. Your not careful, if you post to much good information on these boards, they might still you too. [/QUOTE]
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Some Noble Tauregs and Moorish Elite in Mauritania(Descendants of the Sanhadja and Invader Arab Lueko-Derms)
Beautiful Moorish Bidane Singer...
Aziza brahim
Bautiful Mauritanian Moorish Woman and Singer
Dimi Mint Abba(R.I.P)
More Bidanes and Mauritanians
Golly-Gee where are all the White People at??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Adrar region..(these people are Tauregs I believe)
Oudane
Northern Mauritania
Coastal Mauritania
Adrar region
One of the men above is named "Keith" the other is a Taureg named Mohammed...Wonder who the Mauritanian/Taureg is and I wonder who "Keith" is..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:PAPA = PATERNAL Y-DNA IS EAST AFRIAN GENETIC DRIFT!!!
MOMA = MATERNAL mt-DNA IS PREDOMINANTLY EURASIAN!!!!
The E/E1b1b1 subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b1 (E-M81), known as the ''Berber marker''.
E1b1b1b (E-M81) originated in north africa 5,600 years ago, the parent clade E1b1b originated in East Africa.
These are Caucasoid markers.
European countries with the highest frequency of E are:
Albania 27% Cyprus 20% Greece 27% Macedonia 23% Serbia 20%
So 1/4 of most southern Europe is E, from the Neolithic agriculturalists. According Cruciani et al, 2007, E carriers to the Balkans settled between 4000 and 4700 year ago.
These Neolithic agricultiralists we know were Caucasoid.
If E was carried by Negroids, why Greeks, Serbs etc look WHITE? There is nothing mixed race about them, despite 1/4 or more being E.
quote:PAPA = PATERNAL Y-DNA IS EAST AFRIAN GENETIC DRIFT!!!
MOMA = MATERNAL mt-DNA IS PREDOMINANTLY EURASIAN!!!!
The E/E1b1b1 subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b1 (E-M81), known as the ''Berber marker''.
E1b1b1b (E-M81) originated in north africa 5,600 years ago, the parent clade E1b1b originated in East Africa.
These are Caucasoid markers.
European countries with the highest frequency of E are:
Albania 27% Cyprus 20% Greece 27% Macedonia 23% Serbia 20%
So 1/4 of most southern Europe is E, from the Neolithic agriculturalists. According Cruciani et al, 2007, E carriers to the Balkans settled between 4000 and 4700 year ago.
These Neolithic agricultiralists we know were Caucasoid.
If E was carried by Negroids, why Greeks, Serbs etc look WHITE? There is nothing mixed race about them, despite 1/4 or more being E.
Please do explain...
Serbians:
THIS is getting HILARIOUS!!!!
E-M81 is a MARKER GENETIC DRIFT FROM EAST AFRICAN BLACK MEN. (meaning they moved from one place to another, so the original marker mutated!)
You yourself are now ADMITTING IT'S MAX 6.000 old.
E1b1b1b (E-M81) originated in north africa 5,600 years ago, the parent clade E1b1b originated in East Africa.
In the MEANWHILE THE TUAREG MARKER IS OLDER BY THOUSANDS OF YEARS!!!!!
Europeans mostly carry E-V13 which is another marker and genetic drift. I have posted tis info one or two pages back!
"The TMRCA of the European E-V13 chromosomes turns out to be 4.0–4.7 ky (under 2 different demographic expansion scenarios, see Subjects and Methods; 95% CI 3.5–4.6 ky and 4.1–5.3 ky, respectively)."
"Trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky)"
"A single clade within E-M78 (E-V13) highlights a range expansion in the Bronze Age of southeastern Europe, which is also detected by haplogroup J-M12. "
"The Masalit possesses by far the highest frequency of the E-M78 and of the E-V32 haplogroup, suggesting either a recent bottleneck in the population or a proximity to the origin of the haplogroup. Both E-V13, which is believed to originate in western Asia with its low frequency in North Africa, and E-V65 of North African origin (Cruciani et al., 2007), were not found among Sudanese."
Subtyping of Y-chromosomal haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a) by SNP
Here, we describe a system for the molecular dissection of haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a), consisting of multiplex polymerase chain reaction and minisequencing of M78 and nine population-informative Y-SNPs (M148, M224, V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, V32, V65) in a single reaction.
E1b1b1a, subhaplogrouping for population-of-origin prediction, the distribution of E-M78 and its derived variants was determined in an Italian population sample (n = 326).
—PN2 clade (E3) bearers in the vicinity of the Sudanese-Central African Republic -Ugandan-Kenyan region give rise to E3a ~ between 21 and 18 ky ago [pending additional or new info]; E3b-M35* would have likely arose relatively earlier than E3a*[as evidenced by its near absence in some the populations that carry this], sometime prior to the Ogolian and the LGM period. At this time, it was likely the M78 derivative that came about ~ between 19 and 15 ky ago. It was also likely during this period, that some E3b-M35 variants spilled over to the "southwest Asia", which would be identified as E-M34. The E-M78* likely arose somewhere in the bidirectional-migration route between Northeast and sub-Saharan East Africa; this location was likely in the region straddling upper Egypt and Sudan of the eastern Sahara, amongst earlier E-M35 migrants from sub-Saharan East Africa. These M78 bearers were increasingly pressured to move further south due to progressive aridity, possibly as far as Uganda-Kenya and/or Tanzanian general region.
IT ALL CAME FROM N*GGER BLOOD!!
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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^ Neolithic East African's were not 'Black', they were Caucasoid. They looked like me...
And you failed to answer of course.
If E and its subclades was taken into Europe by these mythical ''black men'' and there was mass fucking with white woman (a sick fantasy of all black men) why are modern Europeans White? Why aren't we looking mixed race with afro's? After all, E is 1/4 or more of the genetic makeup of southern europeans.
So southern euro's are magically 1/4 or more black but look 100% white? lol.
Simple observation debunks your sick fantasy.
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You don't know much about Africans or Africa. The Taureg are black and have been seen as such for time-memorial. Its just a recent fad of the Europeans to make the Tauregs "Whites". The Tauregs are blacks,
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Toureg are black people they have always been black. They enslaved Africans as well as Europeans (which is why some of them are white now
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
They are intermediate.
Making up a multiethnic group of people. And also multi-diverse. The name Berber is simply a CLUSTER WORD for many tribes.
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: ^ Neolithic East African's were not 'Black', they were Caucasoid. They looked like me...
And you failed to answer of course.
If E and its subclades was taken into Europe by these mythical ''black men'' and there was mass fucking with white woman (a sick fantasy of all black men) why are modern Europeans White? Why aren't we looking mixed race with afro's? After all, E is 1/4 or more of the genetic makeup of southern europeans.
So southern euro's are magically 1/4 or more black but look 100% white? lol.
Simple observation debunks your sick fantasy.
YOU ARE TRULLY A PISS POT!!!
Open up I need to pie.
What happened to your brown complected Med types? LOL
I win you loose!
I am done, you can close again!
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I am done, you can close again! [/QB]
None in your photos are remotely European. The top one is Roma. Their ethinic origins are in India...
You basically completely failed in responding on topic, a clear admission of defeat.
You cling to a perverse fantasy which has no basis in fact.
The highest E carriers (20 - 30%) are Greeks, Macedonians and Serbians. So most southern euros are 1/4 or approaching a 1/3 E, as mostly introduced by Neolithic agriculturalists.
If the original E carriers to Europe were ''black men'' as you claim, then modern southern europeans should appear heavily Negroid (up to 1/3) in phenotype. However they don't...
Serbians (some typical Serbian models) -
Do these look black admixed?
Face it, you have lost. Common sense debunks your bullshit. If the e carriers into europe were ''black men'' then modern europeans where e appears the highest (southern europe) should looked mixed race. Yet they don't.
Those neolithic e carrier men who made babies with the indigenous white european females, were still WHITE. If they had been black men, then modern europeans such as the Serbs who are heavily genetically e should not look like the above.
All you have is a sick fantasy which has no basis in fact. You are dismissed.
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
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posted
Vikings raided North Africa in 861AD, taking slaves back to the north. The slaves become known as blue men, in reference to their dark skins. Enno is just such a slave. He's proud and bitter and disobedient, so he has been passed from master to master - desired for the novelty of his skin, but just as soon discarded for his recalcitrance. His latest master is Ohthere, a Viking explorer and trader loyal to Harald Fairhair and the sworn enemy of the pirate Sulke.
posted
E3b originated in East Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001).
E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by farmers, during the Neolithic expansion (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001).
E3B originated in northern East Africa, and is mostly affiliated with North African and Middle-Eastern Caucasoid populations.
It was taken into Southern Europe by a wave of neolithic farmers.
"From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that sub-Sabaran genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2001) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey (E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinniogclu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinniogelu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic.
Paragroup E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E*, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations.
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I am done, you can close again!
None in your photos are remotely European. The top one is Roma. Their ethinic origins are in India...
You basically completely failed in responding on topic, a clear admission of defeat.
You cling to a perverse fantasy which has no basis in fact.
The highest E carriers (20 - 30%) are Greeks, Macedonians and Serbians. So most southern euros are 1/4 or approaching a 1/3 E, as mostly introduced by Neolithic agriculturalists.
If the original E carriers to Europe were ''black men'' as you claim, then modern southern europeans should appear heavily Negroid (up to 1/3) in phenotype. However they don't...
Serbians (some typical Serbian models) -
Do these look black admixed?
Face it, you have lost. Common sense debunks your bullshit. If the e carriers into europe were ''black men'' then modern europeans where e appears the highest (southern europe) should looked mixed race. Yet they don't.
Those neolithic e carrier men who made babies with the indigenous white european females, were still WHITE. If they had been black men, then modern europeans such as the Serbs who are heavily genetically e should not look like the above.
All you have is a sick fantasy which has no basis in fact. You are dismissed. [/QB]
First of all you have no common sense, you don't posses that ability, you can show who ever you like. Even depigmented types. Cool!
Second, I did not show any European in my previous post. It said Roma, because athletic games were held in Rome, Italy. So there you have it. Again you subconsciously admitted. Or should I say: submitted. LOL
Third, what happened to your Brown Meds?
Fourth, South-East Europeans carry Hg E-V13 a downstream and genetic drift, off. (A different mutation in a different region, giving different appearances). With different Hg mixture and a different composition.
Northwest Africans carry E-M81, paternal, as you can see below.
posted
Up till about 50 years ago, the Tuareg did not see themselves as a unified people, they saw themselves as different families, tribes and clans – nomads from different parts of the desert who often fought against each other.
On a normal day when the conflict is in abeyance, how are relations between Malians and Tuaregs? They normally get on pretty well. Until recently, there were a lot of Tuaregs living in Bamako, the capital. They worked in the Malian administration in various jobs, working for NGOs, government bodies, teaching in the universities. That kind of social mixing was happening in other cities like Segou, Mopti, Timbuktu and Gao as well. But there is a historic enmity as well. Malians sometimes think that the Tuareg are fundamentally racist and possess this ‘slave owner’ mentality. Tuaregs often think that black southerners are racist towards them, calling them the ‘Red Skins’ and other pejorative names. So there is some social tension between them. Having said that, I think that many Tuaregs had made their peace with the idea that they were a part of Mali and that they were just going to have to get on with living in Mali.
Mali’s Tuareg Rebellion By Andy Morgan, March 27, 2012
This interview with Andy Morgan offers a detailed and fascinating look at the background to the Tuareg conflict in Mali. Tracing the unrest back over 50 years, he looks at the outside influences of Muammar Gaddafi, local Al Qaeda groups, Algeria and Mauritania. Could you give us the general picture of what is going on in Mali at the moment? The Tuaregs have been fighting an insurgency against the central power in Mali since the late 1950s but in terms of open fighting, since 1963. So this is a very old story. What we are seeing is the latest chapter, but a chapter with a great many differences. The Tuaregs this time are better equipped, better trained and better led than they ever have been before and as a result they have been able to clinch a series of military victories which have given them control of the northern half of Mali – bar the big cities, such as Timbuktu and Gao, which they haven’t attacked yet although I suspect now with all the confusion that is going on in Bamako they might take their chances in the next 48 hours and do just that.
This time people are referring to a Libyan knock-on effect, with Tuaregs returning from Libya, having fought with Gaddafi, now heavily armed and with a lot of money to spend. Is this a true picture? The answer is both yes and no. The relationship between Gaddafi and the Tuaregs goes back to the 1970s, when Gaddafi had a romantic vision of the Tuaregs as superlative warriors. Gaddafi himself, as everyone knows, had a vision of himself as a liberator of oppressed peoples throughout the world. He took it upon himself to bring the Tuaregs into his fold and he trained them up to be soldiers. This happened particularly in the 1980s. The relationship between them at that time was always very ambiguous, as on the one hand he said that he wanted to help the Tuareg people to win back their homeland, but on the other hand he seemed to do precious little to help make that happen in concrete terms – apart from giving a bunch of young Tuareg men some military training in Libya, who he then sent to fight wars in Chad and Lebanon but not back home in Mali or Niger. They have always had a complex relationship, which I like to compare to the Irish Republican movement and the USA. Libya was a source for money and support but no actual encouragement to reach their goals.
How did the Tuaregs end up working in Libya? The reason why a lot of Tuaregs ended up in Libya is that it is a very oil-rich nation which had a lack of manpower. Not only Tuaregs, but many sub-Saharan Africans ended up working in Libya. Some of those Tuaregs were actually a part of the Libyan army. The Malian press have accused the MNLA (National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad) of being Libyan mercenaries but in reality they weren’t mercenaries but actually regular members of the Libyan army and had been for 20 years. For example the leader of the MNLA, Mohamed Ag Najm, was a colonel in the Libyan army. The story goes, and I need to check some of this but, it appears that there was a very well known Tuareg rebel/freedom fighter/bandit depending on your point of view called Ibrahim Ag Bahanga who was a real thorn in the side of the Malian authorities from 2006 onwards until he was defeated militarily in 2008 and exiled to Libya. There, he started to make connections with all these Tuareg officers in the Libyan army, many of whom were in the same clan and the same tribal group as he was. When the Libyan uprising started in Benghazi and things started to go very wrong for Gaddafi, Ibrahim Ag Bahanga and others persuaded some Tuareg officers in the Libyan army to defect, raid the Libyan army arsenals and take the weaponry back to Mali. I have also heard a rumour, which I have not been able to confirm, that they actually had a meeting with the National Transitional Council, the anti-Gaddafi rebels, to get their blessing for this project.
This seems the perfect way to get them out of the way Yes, exactly, and weaken Gaddafi’s army. So this is what they did, and throughout the autumn and summer of 2011, they were ferrying arms back into Mali. During one of these trips, Ibrahim Ag Bahanga was killed, some people say in a car accident, although he had so many enemies that it seems incredible that he could have died in a mere car accident. So what you have is a group of very experienced Libyan Tuareg soldiers, who had been trained and employed in Libya, now in the north-east of Mali with a great deal of weaponry. From about October 2011 onwards, they basically started preparing the uprising, with long meetings out in the desert where they indulged in a great deal of soul searching about what had gone wrong in previous uprisings, so as to get it right this time. What happened is that they entered into an alliance with a much younger group of Tuaregs, you might say young intellectuals, very Internet savvy young Tuaregs, who set up the National Movement of Azawad, the MNA at the end of 2010. They eventually merged with the MNLA. This was an important move as one of the aspects that was deemed to be lacking in previous uprisings was good communications with the international media, and with the world at large. This alliance, this youth wing, if we can call it that, has been very active on the Internet since the uprising started, posting opinions, press releases and denunciations. This is a completely new development, which has led to there being a propaganda war between Mali and the MNLA, alongside the actual military operations.
When we talk about Tuaregs we are talking about many different tribes, spread over different countries. Some say the MNLA is just a small group of a few thousand fighters. What sort of support does the MNLA have from Tuaregs as a whole? There are roughly 1.5 million Tuaregs, although an accurate census does not exist. They are spread out over 5 countries: Mali, Algeria, Libya, Niger and Burkina Faso. They have a very complex clan and tribal structure, at the top of which you have 5 large confederations which are then broken down into tribes, then clans and families etc. It’s very complex. They don’t all see eye-to-eye and historically they have fought against each other, sometimes very bitterly. The idea of a Tuareg identity is a relatively recent phenomenon. Up till about 50 years ago, they did not see themselves as a unified people, they saw themselves as different families, tribes and clans – nomads from different parts of the desert who often fought against each other. So who are the MNLA? The MNLA are basically led by Tuaregs from the north-east of Mali, especially by two particular clans, called the Iforas and Idnan. The Iforas are the traditional rulers of north-eastern Mali. The Idnan are also a traditional warrior clan, bearing in mind that their society is very hierarchical and each clan had its different role. All of these old structures have been modified and deconstructed over the last one hundred years, but basically these two groups, the Iforas and the Idnan, are very much at the head of the MNLA. Support for the MNLA amongst Tuaregs is quite broad, partly as a result of the MNA’s propaganda and certainly before this latest conflict happened, I got the feeling from talking to various friends, that a lot of Tuaregs felt that at last they had a rebel organisation that was worthy of their cause. However they do not represent all Tuaregs by any means, and even less, all the people living in the north of Mali, where there are quite a number of different ethnicities apart from the Tuareg, including Arabs, Songhai and Peulh. All I can say is that it’s been along time since a rebel movement has enjoyed the level of support that the MNLA have, but this support is by no means universal.
Is there any internal opposition? There is one group that is seemingly opposed to the MNLA and they are called the Inghad. They are the former subordinate or ‘vassal’ class in the old hierarchical structure, subordinate to the more noble Idnan and Iforas Tuaregs. Many of the Inghad were in favour of the Tuareg lands becoming part of the Republic of Mali, as the socialist principles upon which the Malian Republic was built meant that they were freed from their subservient status in Tuareg society. One of the most frequently touted names in this conflict is a Tuareg military commander called Colonel al-Hajj Gamou. He has been the Malian army’s champion in the north-east for quite a number of years and he is an Inghad, from one of these vassal tribes. Ag Gamou has been built up as the defender of the Malian cause in the north. Apart from the Libyan Tuareg presence in the MNLA, there have also been a lot of desertions to the MNLA from the Malian army since December, as the Malian army did comprise a large number of Tuaregs. The actual number of people in the MNLA is difficult to gauge but I am sure that the numbers are growing. What are AQIM’s relations with the Tuaregs? Before this rebellion, the supreme leader of the Tuareg rebel movement was Iyad Ag Ghali, who is an Iforas Tuareg.
He led the rebellion in the early 1990s and was also involved in the 2006 rebellion. But he got religion in the late 1990s, thanks to Pakistani preachers who started visiting northern Mali with the aim of converting the Tuareg to the Salafist fundamentalist view of Islam. In most cases they were unsuccessful, but they did manage to convert Ag Ghali who has, apparently, over the last 10 years, become increasingly extremist. In the run up to this uprising, he went to see the MNLA and offered to be their leader, as he had been in the past, but this time his candidature was rejected. The MNLA have made it absolutely clear on many occasions that they are a secular and democratic revolutionary movement, with the emphasis on secular. Iyad was also apparently rejected as leader of the Iforas clan too. The Iforas are still being led by a very ancient man called Intala Ag Attaher, so despite an imminent succession crisis in the clan, he was turned down as the amenokal, as they call a leader in the Tuareg language. He declared that he wanted to bring shariah law to the Tuareg homelands and most Tuaregs do not want shariah. The role of women is relatively prominent, free and strong in Tuareg society. Tuareg society is not profligate or hedonistic, but it is religiously tolerant and people are free to express their own minds. It is a matriarchal society and very different from Saudi Arabian society, for example.
Was that the end of Iyad Ag Ghali? No, he went on to form a movement called Ansar Al Din, which means the “followers of the faithful”. There are reports that he got together a group of like-minded Tuaregs with similar tribal allegiances and they, it is said, are fighting alongside the MNLA as a semi-autonomous wing of the rebel movement. They were apparently very present in the Aguel’hoc and Tessalit battles. The problem is that their presence has allowed Mali to construct the theory that the MNLA are in cahoots with Al Qaeda. There is also the fact that the Tuareg, probably for monetary reasons, have done odd jobs, a bit of kidnapping, a bit of supplying, guiding and driving for Al Qaeda. It is important to understand that when Al Qaeda arrived in the area in 2007/2008, they destroyed the tourist industry, destroyed the NGO industry and destroyed any kind of outside involvement in the area, which catapulted it into a state of economic crisis. So if someone comes along and says: “I’ll give you $500 to drive this van” or whatever, you can imagine that the temptation is extraordinary.
Is unemployment a big issue in this conflict? What is the social background? The social context is that the north-east of Mali has been more or less forgotten in terms of the general development of the country. The first uprising was in 1963 and for the next 20 years, right up until the next uprising in the 1990s, the area was completely marginalized – it was a no-go area, you couldn’t even visit it. It was basically a military occupied zone. Then in 1991 there was a revolution of sorts in Mali and the dictator Moussa Traoré was thrown out. What is ironic is that the current President Touré came to power in that military coup in 1991 which came off the back of a Tuareg uprising. Since then there have been attempts to develop the north. Rather large sums of money have been thrown at the north, some of which, it has to be said, have been embezzled by unscrupulous Tuareg leaders. However what really angered many of the Tuaregs was that a large chunk of the fund called the PSPDN was being used to build military barracks, and to remilitarize the north. That is one of the reasons why the fighting broke out on 17 January this year. This made them feel it was either now or never, otherwise the military presence was going to become too well-established.
On a normal day when the conflict is in abeyance, how are relations between Malians and Tuaregs? They normally get on pretty well. Until recently, there were a lot of Tuaregs living in Bamako, the capital. They worked in the Malian administration in various jobs, working for NGOs, government bodies, teaching in the universities. That kind of social mixing was happening in other cities like Segou, Mopti, Timbuktu and Gao as well. But there is a historic enmity as well. Malians sometimes think that the Tuareg are fundamentally racist and possess this ‘slave owner’ mentality. Tuaregs often think that black southerners are racist towards them, calling them the ‘Red Skins’ and other pejorative names. So there is some social tension between them. Having said that, I think that many Tuaregs had made their peace with the idea that they were a part of Mali and that they were just going to have to get on with living in Mali.
And what about the neighbours, like Mauritania? Mali has accused Mauritania of actually interfering in Malian affairs by supporting the Tuareg. Is there any truth in these accusations? If you read the Malian press there are constant accusations against various outside entities and countries, such as Mauritania. That particular accusation is based on the fact that the MNLA’s political wing has basically set up shop in Nouakchott, the capital of Mauritania. So the political leaders are based there and there is a suspicion in Mali that there have been high level governmental links between Mauritania and the MNLA. The official statements from the Mauritanian President all say that Mauritania respects Malian territorial integrity and that conflicts must be resolved by peaceful means. Behind the scenes, who knows? That said, I don’t think any country wants to see an independent Azawad. It is too dangerous. They are also suspicious in Mali regarding Algeria, as Algeria considers north-eastern Mali to be its backyard, its own zone of influence. The Algerians have always manipulated Tuareg politics in that area. They did so especially to counteract the influence of Gaddafi when he was in power. So there was something of a fight between the Algerians and Gaddafi as to who was the real friend of the Tuaregs.
What about oil and gas? Is the area strategic in terms of its mineral resources? Yes, one thing that has been happening in the last 5 years is that northern Mali has been explored, and parcelled off as lots for oil drilling. Those lots have already been sold off – and I should say this is where things get very murky and where some serious investigative journalism needs to be done. Total, the French oil company, were involved in the exploration, as were the Qatar Petroleum Company. As we know, both Qatar and France were heavily involved in the overthrow of Gaddafi and many Malian commentators see a conspiracy theory in which France (remembering that France and the Tuaregs did try and set up a Tuareg state back in the ’50s prior to Malian independence which was quashed by the FLN in Algeria and the leaders of independent Mali) have always rued the fact that they lost all their colonies and access to the rich minerals in northern Mali. So many Malians see the Tuareg rebellion as being engineered by the French. In general, the Sahara is very fertile ground for conspiracy theories as it’s so hard to verify anything that goes on there. Even people who know a lot about Al Qaeda are convinced that Al Qaeda in Islamic Maghreb is a creation of the Algerian secret services. Others are convinced they were invited into northern Mali by the Malian government itself in order to be able to delegitimize any Tuareg insurgency. The Sahara plays on the mind. There are also rumours about drug trafficking and that the Malian government and army have had a role in that. Tuaregs too. The whole area is a dream for authors of crime and conspiracy novels.
If the situation deteriorates in Mali surely the French will not sit back and watch it happen? It is difficult to say, it depends what links they have with these young soldiers involved in the coup. It is not clear if the French have any control over them. I am inclined to think the French will try and re-install President Touré – presenting themselves as the defenders of democracy – and bring things back to the way they were. The French are also terrified of the Islamic threat. They have already lived through their Algerian experience so this is nothing new to them, but they will not want Mali to become an Islamic state. One thing that is not talked about very much is the creeping influence of Salafist fundamentalist ideology in southern Mali. This has been happening over the last three years. But as for the big picture, we will have to wait and see how this coup plays out.
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