quote:Originally posted by egyguy: It's a shame that we've not had the chance to grow up without the concept of God. Throughout times, it's always been there. Even today among the most atheist groups the mere awareness of God contaminates perception. It will probably take a deserted island atmosphere to test if God truly exists within the human spirit. That is of course provided that we have answers for all we see and experience around us. For the human mind is built to reason things ...
I hope you all understand what I mean.
if you were maroned in a forsaken island do you think you won't believe in god .. I wonder if you were born in a huge control rooom of a nuclear weapon, would you still wonder that it comes here out of no where .. ! no comment
5000 years from now, a man is brought up in a lab and - I think most likely - won't believe in God. My point is, there will be much more answers. Way more control and nothing left to question ....
My question was .. if you really agree that this will happen .. waking up in a nuclear room and believing it was a random process that produced it .. that actually doesn't remove that fact that the nuclear room wad for sure built by others !! wouldn't it .. if your limited mind wouldn't acknowledge this because simply you see it very sophisticated to understand .. and you simply wanna be at your ease .. then ok .. but anyone would just acknowledge it can't be here out of no where
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: I am fond of science .. I like it and I like everything about it .. but science for me is how things works .. not how things are and there is a big difference guys .. huge difference .. if one believe science is god .. he had to know that it is not constant and it is not valid .. and it is incomplete .. number theory is not complete .. what is valid is what we are in for me .. and there must be someone whom control all of this in his way .. all I know is that I have to acknowledge him ..
I agree with you of course that science of how things come to be/interact/work? It can never reach beyond that to the "profound meaning of things", to the "Why" and "What is the true nature of a thing". That is philosophy. Even modern philosophy have abandoned this quest for there is no answer. It still remains a matter of belief! Basically, you could be a quantum physics scientists who is supposed to believe that "The falling stars are hurled against evil Jins" ....
Anyway, the "there must be someone whom control all of this in his way" statement of yours is a clear example of how the human mind works. It's looking for a reason for things. And by a reason I mean not just a pure scientific explanation of how it works, but also how it became to be that way and why. That is philosophy. And that leads you nowhere my friend. For myself, I'm not asking these questions anymore!
you basiclly stopped thinking .. why do you want other to stop thinking .. as I have told you .. it is fine to have a brain and not using it .. but .. it is unbelievable to quest others to do the same .. it is just non-sense. for me it is this simple if for every cause a reason .. then there is a god .. "science leads to god" and if every thing is just a random process .. then still for you and me to discuss here and acknowledge our discussion for that it is happening ... this means that some arrangement happen for it and it can't be random .. other wise if you neither believe in both .. that we are talking or that there is some observation in the universe that is repetitive .. simply why do you wanna discuss it ?!!
You need to work on your debating manners. I have a 160 IQ. So you might want to throw the "Use your brain" sh1t at someone else.
I said it before and will say it again. I know it's hard for most to understand. Our brains (either by custom or construction) is wired to look for reason/"responsible entity" behind any event. Before we came to understand the mechanisms of rain fall, we used to pray for it. This debate can extend into creationism and evolution, big bang theory, chaos theory and so on. However, I really don't wish to go there. Your argument is very simplistic in nature and is no different from an argument that I get of a religious book or an uneducated person.
I hope I don't come across as being a snob. What I was really looking for was someone who has been through the same experience and somehow came on the other end a different person with a clear view of where he/she is heading.
Enough said. No big deal. God just lost an obedient sole Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: ----------------------------------- [QUOTE]If God was the CEO of this place, I would have fired him. He is just not doing his job.
The whole plot is ridiculuos and doesn't make any sense. God creates people to test them. If they fail he throws them in hell. Sweet, God has too much time on his hands I see
why u wrote this thread..,just to say this words???
No hesham, he wrote this because this is how he sees it, how many people see it. One doesnt have to believe in the creator in the confines of man-made religion. She is more than that, she is the infinite universe, she is the air you breathe and the grass you walk on. I think the man made books of religion do not do her justice.EgyGuy is seeking clarity and asking for help and he deserves a little bit more than this for his efforts, dont you think? Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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The infinity of God and of science is drifting away from us the more we learn and yet feeling closer all the time. We need to trust and believe. Surrender yourself to find out. We need both science and religion in our lives, facts purpose and meaning. At least some of us seem genetically disposed!:-)
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Trollin': It's scary, when you've believed forever in God, to sit and examine the universe and religion and realize you might come to the conclusion God doesn't exist
Religion and God are mutually exclusive
They have nothing to do with each other.
God is beyond religion.
~Alistair
Well, we might no agree on who will be our next president , but I definitely am in 100% agreement with you on this!! Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: I am fond of science .. I like it and I like everything about it .. but science for me is how things works .. not how things are and there is a big difference guys .. huge difference .. if one believe science is god .. he had to know that it is not constant and it is not valid .. and it is incomplete .. number theory is not complete .. what is valid is what we are in for me .. and there must be someone whom control all of this in his way .. all I know is that I have to acknowledge him ..
I agree with you of course that science of how things come to be/interact/work? It can never reach beyond that to the "profound meaning of things", to the "Why" and "What is the true nature of a thing". That is philosophy. Even modern philosophy have abandoned this quest for there is no answer. It still remains a matter of belief! Basically, you could be a quantum physics scientists who is supposed to believe that "The falling stars are hurled against evil Jins" ....
Anyway, the "there must be someone whom control all of this in his way" statement of yours is a clear example of how the human mind works. It's looking for a reason for things. And by a reason I mean not just a pure scientific explanation of how it works, but also how it became to be that way and why. That is philosophy. And that leads you nowhere my friend. For myself, I'm not asking these questions anymore!
you basiclly stopped thinking .. why do you want other to stop thinking .. as I have told you .. it is fine to have a brain and not using it .. but .. it is unbelievable to quest others to do the same .. it is just non-sense. for me it is this simple if for every cause a reason .. then there is a god .. "science leads to god" and if every thing is just a random process .. then still for you and me to discuss here and acknowledge our discussion for that it is happening ... this means that some arrangement happen for it and it can't be random .. other wise if you neither believe in both .. that we are talking or that there is some observation in the universe that is repetitive .. simply why do you wanna discuss it ?!!
You need to work on your debating manners. I have a 160 IQ. So you might want to throw the "Use your brain" sh1t at someone else.
I said it before and will say it again. I know it's hard for most to understand. Our brains (either by custom or construction) is wired to look for reason/"responsible entity" behind any event. Before we came to understand the mechanisms of rain fall, we used to pray for it. This debate can extend into creationism and evolution, big bang theory, chaos theory and so on. However, I really don't wish to go there. Your argument is very simplistic in nature and is no different from an argument that I get of a religious book or an uneducated person.
I hope I don't come across as being a snob. What I was really looking for was someone who has been through the same experience and somehow came on the other end a different person with a clear view of where he/she is heading.
Enough said. No big deal. God just lost an obedient sole
First of all it is intuitive that the simple way is the most easy way to get into the problem .. this actually is most common with any scientest and practice actions .. complicating the issue just don't get into the solution and if you are dealing like this in your practicle life .. !! Anyway, it is intuitive also that anyone whom trying to prove an axiom can't prove it, however you didn't give us any other prove for your axioms that is consistent and not contraciting .. you are implying a universe that is can't prove the theories with first level logic unless you can introduce a new logic .. let me ask you a simple questions .. your whole universe is build upon what .. is it the random process, if so then the random process is of what? .. how was your whole universe build upon the axiom you are supposidely to say .. how r you handling the truth of your existance and the repetitive patterns of universe in your theory .. how r you handling the continium we all living at in the theory .. what is the thoery of conciousness you r adopting .. how are you handling the incompleteness in any system .. what is your first order logic .. if you r so bright elaborate more , let us see through your brain .. not just claiming without any logic .. your statement actually is void "I hoped someone has had my experience and gain my knowledge" .. it will never become truth .. if your talking about a random process no one will ever have your same experience except if our experience is stepping in function "decrete" which is not our experience is continous .. not that only and if the knowledge you claim you have adopted is basic with any believable axioms .. then it can be derieved and introduced with first level logic in some theory "one or more" .. and we will try to understand .. my argument is basic and easy .. now introduce yours let's see how bright you are
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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egyguy, Can I ask exactly what proof you would like or expect of God's existence? I mean specifically, what would it take to convince you?
Posts: 35 | From: Rising From The Ashes | Registered: Jul 2007
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I agree with Phoenix Rising. Also, what would patently *disprove* God's existence to you? Is there a way to do that? I haven't found it, but I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Trollin': I agree with Phoenix Rising. Also, what would patently *disprove* God's existence to you? Is there a way to do that? I haven't found it, but I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions.
It is impossible to ‘disprove’ Allah and empiricists who claim otherwise are contradicting science. Simply put can we deny the magnificence of the cosmos, its harmonious existence and continuance? Some are quick to glorify evolutionist theories but such mentalities are obviously subjective because evolution theories are in fact inconclusive and fall short of explaining an atom’s worth with regards to knowledge of the universe.
On the other hand there is our innate tendency, a belief instilled in our minds that there is something behind all of this. And that ladies and gentlemen is our struggle and it definitely will not be found unless we truly seek it and of course if it is meant to be. If you are looking for beams of lights to shine through your window or an Angel to visit you and allay your doubts then you are mistaken.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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I don't have to prove anything. It's the other way around. The claim has been for a few thousand years now that there is a God that is responsible for the creation and maintenance of this universe. I'm actually looking for proof. So, it's like, the joke is on you or something. Religious people have to prove that to me.
One has to appreciate what billions of years can produce. Our own lives and perceptions are so limited, it's virtually impossible to put this into comprehendible perspective. Even advanced mathematics has its limits (not that they're not expanding).
We're getting wiser about our universe everyday. The more we learn, the more we understand how minute we are. Some theories propose a countless number of parallel universes out there. Other universes with their own laws and dynamics. The big bang could have occurred a countless number of times producing a countless number of universes.
To continue to think that we're the focal point of this universe/universes, is absurd.
Again, I hope it's clear that I don't have to prove anything. I'm looking for proof. The fact that we "seem" to exist is no proof of intelligent creation. The fact that we're consciously aware of our being doesn't prove anything either. It only puts us in a state of inquiry and a never ending yearning to learn more. That instinct (if you want to call it that way) was satisfied initially by myths and legends due to our limited abilities. That should not be the case anymore.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: I don't have to prove anything. It's the other way around. The claim has been for a few thousand years now that there is a God that is responsible for the creation and maintenance of this universe. I'm actually looking for proof. So, it's like, the joke is on you or something. Religious people have to prove that to me.
One has to appreciate what billions of years can produce. Our own lives and perceptions are so limited, it's virtually impossible to put this into comprehendible perspective. Even advanced mathematics has its limits (not that they're not expanding).
We're getting wiser about our universe everyday. The more we learn, the more we understand how minute we are. Some theories propose a countless number of parallel universes out there. Other universes with their own laws and dynamics. The big bang could have occurred a countless number of times producing a countless number of universes.
To continue to think that we're the focal point of this universe/universes, is absurd.
Again, I hope it's clear that I don't have to prove anything. I'm looking for proof. The fact that we "seem" to exist is no proof of intelligent creation. The fact that we're consciously aware of our being doesn't prove anything either. It only puts us in a state of inquiry and a never ending yearning to learn more. That instinct (if you want to call it that way) was satisfied initially by myths and legends due to our limited abilities. That should not be the case anymore.
All that because your girlfriend dumped you Oh yeah and the Alcohol thingie too Posts: 194 | Registered: May 2007
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god hides where nobody can find him/her (actually transcendal)and where few people seek...within your Self. when you find a sacred cow...milk it for all it's worth
-------------------- when you see a sacred cow..milk it for all it's worth Posts: 72 | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: I don't have to prove anything. It's the other way around. The claim has been for a few thousand years now that there is a God that is responsible for the creation and maintenance of this universe. I'm actually looking for proof. So, it's like, the joke is on you or something. Religious people have to prove that to me.
One has to appreciate what billions of years can produce. Our own lives and perceptions are so limited, it's virtually impossible to put this into comprehendible perspective. Even advanced mathematics has its limits (not that they're not expanding).
We're getting wiser about our universe everyday. The more we learn, the more we understand how minute we are. Some theories propose a countless number of parallel universes out there. Other universes with their own laws and dynamics. The big bang could have occurred a countless number of times producing a countless number of universes.
To continue to think that we're the focal point of this universe/universes, is absurd.
Again, I hope it's clear that I don't have to prove anything. I'm looking for proof. The fact that we "seem" to exist is no proof of intelligent creation. The fact that we're consciously aware of our being doesn't prove anything either. It only puts us in a state of inquiry and a never ending yearning to learn more. That instinct (if you want to call it that way) was satisfied initially by myths and legends due to our limited abilities. That should not be the case anymore.
I actually did not ask you to prove anything, I simply inquired as to what proof you would require. It seemed like a simple question to me, I don't understand how you turned it into four paragraphs with no answer to my question. I am sincerely curious as to what would be "enough" for you. Forgot about your humble search for the answers for all of mankind, let's get specific, what would YOU need?
In any case I do not think that you would be satisfied with any proof, it is easy to rationalize away pretty much anything. Even visions or god speaking to you could clearly be put under the category of mental disease or delusions. So really did you just come here to expound on your ideas and theories? This is fine of course, but don't put it under the guise of looking for answers or "proof." It was already pretty clear you had made up your mind. In any case, I am still interested in the answer to my question if you would be willing to oblige me. Posts: 35 | From: Rising From The Ashes | Registered: Jul 2007
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Fair enough. How about you explain to me the purpose of a "God created life". Meaning, our lives, all beings, living and non living involved. What is the purpose of creation? Why are we here? Where do we come from? Where are we heading to? Bear in mind, that I'm very sensitive to any explanation that involves the hint, even mere hint, that "The existence of God" is essential to a sane, benevolent life. I hope you understand what I mean. I have to admit though, my mind is pretty much made up. So, yes, you're right. It will be hard to convince me otherwise. However, I thought that maybe others have been through a similar experience and sometimes a life changing answer can be just one word!
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: I don't have to prove anything. It's the other way around. The claim has been for a few thousand years now that there is a God that is responsible for the creation and maintenance of this universe. I'm actually looking for proof. So, it's like, the joke is on you or something. Religious people have to prove that to me.
One has to appreciate what billions of years can produce. Our own lives and perceptions are so limited, it's virtually impossible to put this into comprehendible perspective. Even advanced mathematics has its limits (not that they're not expanding).
We're getting wiser about our universe everyday. The more we learn, the more we understand how minute we are. Some theories propose a countless number of parallel universes out there. Other universes with their own laws and dynamics. The big bang could have occurred a countless number of times producing a countless number of universes.
To continue to think that we're the focal point of this universe/universes, is absurd.
Again, I hope it's clear that I don't have to prove anything. I'm looking for proof. The fact that we "seem" to exist is no proof of intelligent creation. The fact that we're consciously aware of our being doesn't prove anything either. It only puts us in a state of inquiry and a never ending yearning to learn more. That instinct (if you want to call it that way) was satisfied initially by myths and legends due to our limited abilities. That should not be the case anymore.
mathematics and science itself prove else wise .. mathematics simply says that it doesn't know anything .. Are we living in an ecludian space .. prove it for me .. prove for me that there is homogenity and that there is parallel lines in universe .. are we living in a convex universe prove it to me .. are we living in a homogenous universe prove it to me .. science knows nothing .. that simple .. any equation that is not proved with true life example is just as false as its whole prove .. that's what is called contradiction .. if it is proven that light can travel more than 300,000 km/s .. all of relativistic science will be thrown the next day. Now let me talk about parallel worlds, a parallel universe is an un proven idea brought by mathematics and falisified by mathematics itself .. it is well acknowledged that the universe is rather a one big-bang universe just read the strong censorship hypothesis, other singularities in current space-time coordinates doesn't contribute to a new big bang .. because simply it needs mass to happen .. anyway to be frank there are other thoeries out there that postulate the idea of "multiverses" (multi-universes) but not a parallel worlds!! .. the idea of a parallel word is still there but assuming that the other universes is exactly the same as this one "we living at" is some kind of fiction and mathimatically void .. zero prove for it .. still there might exist multi-universe actually a multi universes can exist within the existing adjacently .. for me simply its how souls interact with universe .. anyway all in all and as I had quoted before our conciousness is only the attachment of us "souls" with the continum space .. the interaction leads "for us humans" to what takes place in space and evolve history .. all of the above ideas simply are rather mathematical hypothesis .. what the universe is, is truely what the universe is .. and mathimatics knows this "very basic idea". Mathematics and physics doesn't define universe it just tries to make an imitatation example for it .. for instance a very basic mathematical argument is valid only by the homogenity or claimed homogenity of universe which can be as simple as (1+1=2) this is valid only in a homogenous universe its not valid in any unhomogenous space unless you are talking about a set of phi including another set of phi .. this idea by itself falisfy almost all of our known mathematics from its basic .. to note that the basic shapes are not existing and no one can prove the existing of plato's world of shapes .. there is one valid truth which is the universe simply can't be outcoming of any mathematical process .. it defines mathematics and propabilities .. how come a propability can define it's owner !!!!!! universe defines how things interacts not maths .. believe it or not how come mathematics can define universe if universe is what makes mathes ? so the universe is there and don't try to make me believe that we dunno nothin .. we know that it is there. otherwise we are simply dreaming, still for this to happen there is two delimma "the word we" and the other delimma of howcome we all in same dream and also we all defined the exact same set of rules for all of us to dream with .. still let me take you to the extereme and assume that this is true, that we are dreaming "which for me is not". Our rules of dreaming must be outcome of something "programming or other" .. if we can't control our world while sober .. we must have been developed by someone to do that "definite rules we are living with" .. all in all there must be a creator for the rules or the universe or whatever .. still in this hypothesis I am stuck with the other delimma which is "we" .. can I define this .. nop .. in way for me in either worlds I can't. Summing up, maths doesn't create what it simply try to define and for me simply the creator for all rules is god and believe it or not I have faith in him more than universe .. for his forgiveness or else there is no need for any goodness in the world ..I know I can't define god in shape or something like this, no one can .. but at the same time for me I can deny his existance it is ridiculus for anyone not to acknowledge God's existance and attribute that to something because he thinks he knows nothin .. "you know where you are" .. finally I know god does exist and may be the difference between me and you is I believe in his goodness and you don't .. or so I think .. may Allah forgive all. Salam
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: -----------------------------------
quote:If God was the CEO of this place, I would have fired him. He is just not doing his job.
The whole plot is ridiculuos and doesn't make any sense. God creates people to test them. If they fail he throws them in hell. Sweet, God has too much time on his hands I see
why u wrote this thread..,just to say this words???
No hesham, he wrote this because this is how he sees it, how many people see it. One doesnt have to believe in the creator in the confines of man-made religion. She is more than that, she is the infinite universe, she is the air you breathe and the grass you walk on. I think the man made books of religion do not do her justice.EgyGuy is seeking clarity and asking for help and he deserves a little bit more than this for his efforts, dont you think?
well Rumi..,first i must thank u lots for ur beautiful words about she..,coz i could say that for the girl whom i love..,she might find that so sweet..,as i found it too
about Egyguy..,i'll try to post for him my view for things..,my view which i dont impose it for anyone here..,
but its just so simple..,(FIRST)lot of times we seek for questions which we shouldnt ask them..,everyone on this earth have his private informations which he dont wanna share to others for some reasons..,u sure have some secrets which u hide them..,me have some secrets which i hide them..,ur friends have some secrets which they hide them..,ur perants will have some secrets which they wont wanna u to know them..,even thought they r ur perants and they maybe is the most closer persons for u in ur life who had grew u up...,ur love too have some secrets and she/he wont like to show them for u..,and at last we do all respect this privacy secrets about their own life...
so cant we be able to respect the secrets which GOD had hide from us..,he would tell the humans about the wisdom of making us suffer so lots in life if he wanted that..,he would tell us about how he looks like or if he is male or a female if he wanted that..,he would tell us about the wisdom of making relgions and put this certain rule by this way not by any other way if he wanted that(in case of there is rules u must ask about why it made by this way and u deserve the reasons too)..,he would tell us the logic and wisdom of making the prophets(who carried this relgions on earth) suffered more than anyone else.
we can respect the human secrets and we cant respect his secrets!!!!!!!!
GOD did it by so simple way..,he created the life & nature..,then from this life we should see the evidence that he is really here(WHO CAN MAKE A LITTILE FLY BY THIS COMPLICATED WAY THAN HE??!!!)..,then and after known that he is here there is so much ways to worship him by them..,this ways called relgions or called philossphy..,the relgions which people who believe in them is the knowlege from GOD for them to know the truth and worship him by it..,and the philossophy is the knowlege from humans to themsleves to know the truth and worship him by it..,so there is so many opinions about him..,and everyone can choose the way which can fit his mind and his thinking...
but the more u asking about secrets which he hide..,the more u get much more tired..,and the more u will going to believe moment by moment that this world i just a game??..,do u think really that all of this complicated life have been created for a game??!!!!!
(SECOND)...,GOD is not just the only creator in this world..,he is just the best of creators coz no any other creator can challenge him for what he created..,for example..,an artist who paint a portrait is a creator who created a peice of art..,the carpenter who make a chair is a creator who created a peice of furniture..,a writer who wrote a story is a creator who created a story(included persons and events working together inside this story)....
so did u ever heard about any portrait had been talk to his artist and asked him why u drew me by this way and colored me by pink not by orange???,..have u ever heard about wooden chair yelled at his carpenter and asked him what is the logic & wisdom of making me on classic style not on the modern style???,..have u ever heard about story chracters who told their writer why u make us sufferring in ur story..,and why u make us choose that and not choose that(in case of the examples is so diffrent coz GOD gives us the freedom to choose and gives us minds to think by them)...
he created us from the sand to be humans for some reasons we dont know..,he put us in test for some reasons we dont know..,he make us suffer for some reasons we dont know..,coz by so simple way if he wanted us to know he would tell us
1-the evidence that he is here is so clear..,and u can see it clearly in ur self..,or in complicated life..,in this complicated nature..,which cannot be here by luck..
2-the ways to worship him is so lots..,and u have the choice to choose from them which fits ur mind and ur soul..,there is relgions and there is philossophies..
3- u better ask him the questions which he hide when u meet him..,coz no one will be able to answer this questions..,about why he created us..,why he make us suffer even though we worship him???..how he looks like???..,if he wanted even to say for us he is male or female he would tell us..,but he didnt want...
thats how i keep my faith..,and thats how i find him take so much care of his own world..,and thats how i believe that its not just a game and he played and keep playing it..
at last i want to finish my words by qoute from Quran coz its what i follow..,and i respect all of other relgions and all of other views according to that ((Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. ))
i wish for u so goodluck in seeking for ur clarity..,
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: mathematics and science itself prove else wise .. mathematics simply says that it doesn't know anything .. Are we living in an ecludian space .. prove it for me .. prove for me that there is homogenity and that there is parallel lines in universe .. are we living in a convex universe prove it to me .. are we living in a homogenous universe prove it to me .. science knows nothing .. that simple .. any equation that is not proved with true life example is just as false as its whole prove .. that's what is called contradiction .. if it is proven that light can travel more than 300,000 km/s .. all of relativistic science will be thrown the next day. Now let me talk about parallel worlds, a parallel universe is an un proven idea brought by mathematics and falisified by mathematics itself .. it is well acknowledged that the universe is rather a one big-bang universe just read the strong censorship hypothesis, other singularities in current space-time coordinates doesn't contribute to a new big bang .. because simply it needs mass to happen .. anyway to be frank there are other thoeries out there that postulate the idea of "multiverses" (multi-universes) but not a parallel worlds!! .. the idea of a parallel word is still there but assuming that the other universes is exactly the same as this one "we living at" is some kind of fiction and mathimatically void .. zero prove for it .. still there might exist multi-universe actually a multi universes can exist within the existing adjacently .. for me simply its how souls interact with universe .. anyway all in all and as I had quoted before our conciousness is only the attachment of us "souls" with the continum space .. the interaction leads "for us humans" to what takes place in space and evolve history .. all of the above ideas simply are rather mathematical hypothesis .. what the universe is, is truely what the universe is .. and mathimatics knows this "very basic idea". Mathematics and physics doesn't define universe it just tries to make an imitatation example for it .. for instance a very basic mathematical argument is valid only by the homogenity or claimed homogenity of universe which can be as simple as (1+1=2) this is valid only in a homogenous universe its not valid in any unhomogenous space unless you are talking about a set of phi including another set of phi .. this idea by itself falisfy almost all of our known mathematics from its basic .. to note that the basic shapes are not existing and no one can prove the existing of plato's world of shapes .. there is one valid truth which is the universe simply can't be outcoming of any mathematical process .. it defines mathematics and propabilities .. how come a propability can define it's owner !!!!!! universe defines how things interacts not maths .. believe it or not how come mathematics can define universe if universe is what makes mathes ? so the universe is there and don't try to make me believe that we dunno nothin .. we know that it is there. otherwise we are simply dreaming, still for this to happen there is two delimma "the word we" and the other delimma of howcome we all in same dream and also we all defined the exact same set of rules for all of us to dream with .. still let me take you to the extereme and assume that this is true, that we are dreaming "which for me is not". Our rules of dreaming must be outcome of something "programming or other" .. if we can't control our world while sober .. we must have been developed by someone to do that "definite rules we are living with" .. all in all there must be a creator for the rules or the universe or whatever .. still in this hypothesis I am stuck with the other delimma which is "we" .. can I define this .. nop .. in way for me in either worlds I can't. Summing up, maths doesn't create what it simply try to define and for me simply the creator for all rules is god and believe it or not I have faith in him more than universe .. for his forgiveness or else there is no need for any goodness in the world ..I know I can't define god in shape or something like this, no one can .. but at the same time for me I can deny his existance it is ridiculus for anyone not to acknowledge God's existance and attribute that to something because he thinks he knows nothin .. "you know where you are" .. finally I know god does exist and may be the difference between me and you is I believe in his goodness and you don't .. or so I think .. may Allah forgive all. Salam
I'm sorry. I didn't understand most of what you said. I guess what you're trying to say is that science can describe the universe but it didn't create it. And that there must be an intelligent design behind it?
OK. This is again a matter of belief. I just don't believe anymore. I truly don't. That's all. Thanks for the help anyway.
And yeah, one more note. To claim that science is good for nothing for it truly doesn't explain all that is to be explained in all depth of meaning??? How absurd?
Science never claimed this. But guess what? Science put us on the moon. Sent probes to Mars? and is making you live a better life than the sultans of ancient times - yes you do with your tv/pc/car/jet/air conditioning ... etc.
Simply put, science is science. I can re-produce an experiment conducted in Egypt again in China.
That's something I can put my faith in. I can touch, smell, see, understand and work with.
That aside.
I understand that most are horrified by the idea of a Godless world. However, humanity as a whole is maturing/getting smarter. Don't think so? Take a look at a tv show from the sixties and the first thing to come to mind is how naive/stupid/plain it's. So is human evolution. We're learning a great deal everyday. Getting more efficient and may I note "Less attached to God". It's the truth.
Everywhere!
The fact that most still say "yeah, I believe in God" but live their lives every day in a completely indifferent manner to the idea/concept of the holy continue to amuse me.
God has left the building long ago. We just don't want to believe it. Like children, we want to believe!
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: I'm done with this topic BTW.
Some people are going to come to the conclusion there is no God, perhaps you included. But from personal experience I think you will always continue to wonder about it. For some people, religion puts their mind at rest, and they don't have to think much about anything, other than doing what they are supposed to do. For others, religion or lack thereof will always demand questioning, they will never feel truly comfortable because they will never know the *concrete* evidence behind it all.
Since I was a very young child, the concept of heaven, to me, was that God would finally tell me all the answers. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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i hope that u just can answer me (Egyguy) this question..,coz im just an ignorant guy who need to know about that from science..,how the first seed of life started in this universe???
Posts: 712 | Registered: Sep 2006
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EgyGuy, many people go through phases in their lives of religious beliefs. We are all rarely always 100% faithful even in our beliefs. I think it is a sort of evolution. Perhaps that is the part of evolution of your faith you are in now. I do hope the best for you and would at least encourage you to keep an open mind as you age. Very often we change our perceptions and needs as we age and you might be surprised how much your belief in God could play a role in that. Best of luck.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: I'm sorry. I didn't understand most of what you said. I guess what you're trying to say is that science can describe the universe but it didn't create it. And that there must be an intelligent design behind it?
OK. This is again a matter of belief. I just don't believe anymore. I truly don't. That's all. Thanks for the help anyway.
And yeah, one more note. To claim that science is good for nothing for it truly doesn't explain all that is to be explained in all depth of meaning??? How absurd?
Science never claimed this. But guess what? Science put us on the moon. Sent probes to Mars? and is making you live a better life than the sultans of ancient times - yes you do with your tv/pc/car/jet/air conditioning ... etc.
Simply put, science is science. I can re-produce an experiment conducted in Egypt again in China.
That's something I can put my faith in. I can touch, smell, see, understand and work with.
That aside.
I understand that most are horrified by the idea of a Godless world. However, humanity as a whole is maturing/getting smarter. Don't think so? Take a look at a tv show from the sixties and the first thing to come to mind is how naive/stupid/plain it's. So is human evolution. We're learning a great deal everyday. Getting more efficient and may I note "Less attached to God". It's the truth.
Everywhere!
The fact that most still say "yeah, I believe in God" but live their lives every day in a completely indifferent manner to the idea/concept of the holy continue to amuse me.
God has left the building long ago. We just don't want to believe it. Like children, we want to believe!
I don't claim that science is good for nothin never did I said this, I only say that we take things for granted .. that simple if things repeats itself "so that experement in china is same as in Egypt as u claim" . it repeats itself for some reason and it is never the same .. science itself says this .. there is always an amount of uncertainity in every thing .. the issue here is that although things seems all organized it is not because science says this it is because it was meant to be organized this way otherwise we should be very confused and I quote here that "god doesn't play dice with the world" on the other hand he just add his own flavor to it for those whom truly wanna see it .. at least for me .. for me the repetative pattern of issues though might seem for your mind an intuitive but for me it is not .. for me simply the axioms of the universe are here without no reason but the reason for saying hey there is a creator .. I believe in science more than you ever do and I know what r the miracles of science more than you can imagine .. I never said and will never say that science is not a helper but I see science bit different than you. for me science is only exploration to magnifecient miraculus existance .. and by no means a definition for it .. I hope this is clear for you to understand
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: I'm done with this topic BTW.
Some people are going to come to the conclusion there is no God, perhaps you included. But from personal experience I think you will always continue to wonder about it. For some people, religion puts their mind at rest, and they don't have to think much about anything, other than doing what they are supposed to do. For others, religion or lack thereof will always demand questioning, they will never feel truly comfortable because they will never know the *concrete* evidence behind it all.
Since I was a very young child, the concept of heaven, to me, was that God would finally tell me all the answers.
EXACTLY I can't agree more
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: I don't have to prove anything. It's the other way around. The claim has been for a few thousand years now that there is a God that is responsible for the creation and maintenance of this universe. I'm actually looking for proof. So, it's like, the joke is on you or something. Religious people have to prove that to me.
One has to appreciate what billions of years can produce. Our own lives and perceptions are so limited, it's virtually impossible to put this into comprehendible perspective. Even advanced mathematics has its limits (not that they're not expanding).
We're getting wiser about our universe everyday. The more we learn, the more we understand how minute we are. Some theories propose a countless number of parallel universes out there. Other universes with their own laws and dynamics. The big bang could have occurred a countless number of times producing a countless number of universes.
To continue to think that we're the focal point of this universe/universes, is absurd.
Again, I hope it's clear that I don't have to prove anything. I'm looking for proof. The fact that we "seem" to exist is no proof of intelligent creation. The fact that we're consciously aware of our being doesn't prove anything either. It only puts us in a state of inquiry and a never ending yearning to learn more. That instinct (if you want to call it that way) was satisfied initially by myths and legends due to our limited abilities. That should not be the case anymore.
well first Egyguy we have to agree on one point, which is maths is not reality .. meaning that what is real is what we are at, defnitely I can't prove existance with math , that's simple and clear to any scientest as the sun and to any rational thinking it is just a b c. What thousand of years can do doesn't define what thousand of years is .. years can do nothin if simply it doesn't exist .. I hope this is clear to your 160 IQ mind ..time means nothin if it is not coupled with exitance actually time itself is not that independent axis "vitually" to the other axis .. Our conciousness is defined with our existance, it is our mutual interaction with the space (time and place), which makes history and define what is science to others, is there rules for universe, well sure there is but defining these rules "science" doesn't actually define universe it simply, defines some repetitive pattern that seems to follow some defined structure .. why .. where .. when .. again if we are not living in a homogenous univerese there would have never been time because actually there wouldn't be a definite structure to define the second or minute same with the distances .. (that's a mathematical fact) .. we seem to live in a homogenous universe .. and that's what make minutes and seconds exist. If you can't understand this tell me. Again I have gone with u in the imagination that we are living in a dream and I have asked a specific question can u please answer it ? Actually if our life is virtual then it is more prove that there is a programmer for all of our dreams .. I don't blieve this I think that what we are at is just reality I hope I am right but I might be .. bottom line .. and it was said before Does god exist? Yes, deal with it
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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I dont think Egyguy WANTS to believe, he wants NOT to believe and there lies the difference.
Science does not have all the answers, neither does the human race, to think that it does is arrogance.
I'm not even going to attempt to try to convince someone who's mind is not open as he says. He's not on a quest to find truth, he's on a quest to prove it doesn't exist which he will never do.
if you want to find the answers in science and fact (sound familiar anyone?) then find the answers in science for all that is unexplained. Faith lies in the heart, not the mind, hence the word 'submission' trust without questioning, I feel you are looking in the wrong place.
good point by Trollin
"Since I was a very young child, the concept of heaven, to me, was that God would finally tell me all the answers."
And i do believe that he tells us the answers in this life too, If we stop to listen (through our heart, not our stethoscope )
Posts: 644 | Registered: Jul 2007
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How do I keep my faith? I don't. I don't have a faith.
God may exist, or he may not, at the momment there' nos sure way to know it. I certanly don't trust in the so called "Holly Books" simply because I have no reason to do so. As if people haven't invented such stories and the past and still do today... So even if a Supreme Being, a Creator, exist, I very much doubt anyone here knows what his will and intentions are.
Me? I go mostly by what I feel is right. And why do I feel something is right? It's what has been thaught to me, it's conclusions I have reached or simply something I feel. Yes, sketchy. But then I don't force people to have the same feelings as my self (that is, if left alone, so will I leave others alone), nor I think that my own are better than others. But since they mine, they are the ones who matter to me.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Aug 2007
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