posted
Ali Sina has a question that I can't answer
Ali Sina:
My question is why is Allah so jealous if humans worship gods that do not exist? If my cat meows to the refrigerator because he thinks it is the refrigerator that feeds him and not me I will not punish him. A deity that will not forgive those who pray to imaginary gods is an insane god. Let us say a person likes to worship a stone (Actually Muslims do worship a stone) why this should be so offensive to God? Why he should burn people who want to worship trees, stones or animals? Does he feel jealous? Does he feel threatened?
Compare this sadistic attitude of God to what Krishna said. According to the Bhagavad-Gita, the god Krishna claims that it does not matter which god human beings worship; it is Krishna who answers their prayer.
If there are no other gods but Allah why is he so desperate and jealous? I can be jealous if my wife looks at men better looking than me. This would be sick but understandable. I may have low self esteem. However, if we live in an island where there are no men at all, and still I am jealous, I should be sent to a mental hospital at once. How can Allah be jealous of gods that do not exist?
Who said by virtue that God created us he has the right to torture us? Did he consult us before creating us? Did we agree to the deal that we would worship him if he creates us? I have no recollection of agreeing to such a deal or signing any covenant with my alleged creator. He created without my will and gave me feelings. He has no right to hurt my feelings or mistreat me.
Let us say that God created us for a purpose and we fail that purpose. Apart from the fact that this shows God is a sloppy creator because our imperfections are directly the result of his lack of skills in creating perfect humans, why he just does not return us to nothingness if he sees we do not serve his purpose? Why he tortures us in this excruciating way for eternity?
Assuming that something is wrong with us and we do not serve our creator's purpose, all he has to do is discard us. Why this much venom? Why this much vengeance?
Furthermore, if he is an all knowing god, why he created those whom he knew would disobey him? If I know a software or a machine that I am making is not going to work the way I want it to work, I will not make it. If Allah knew the future why he made those whom he knew would disobey? Isn't this sick to create disbelievers and then torture them for eternity? All he had to do was not create those whom he knew would become disbeliever.
Muhammad became the absolute potentate of Arabia. In Mecca he destroyed the wealth of his wife and when he escaped to Medina he was poor. In just ten years he owned the wealth of thousands of people that he raided, murdered or banished. What other proof you need to agree that he benefited immensely by fooling people? The Christians can say Jesus did not benefit materially and was killed for what he stood for. Muslims can’s say that about Muhammad because he benefited materially from his claim. He became the absolute rule and filled his harem with a bevy of young women. It is precisely because of this that we should question his motives.
The Quran says that Allah will forgive all sins except the sin of associating partners to him. (4:48) This is unjust. First of all how can he forgive mass murderers who brought so much pain to countless people and not forgive one who simply thinks Muhammad was a nutcase? Where is the justice here? Secondly, no human should be punished for disbelief. Why? Because we never agreed to believe in God and worship him when we were given life. As far as I know everyone cries when he comes to the world. We are here without our will. God cannot impose on us obligations that we never agreed to. This is like I drag you and force you into my house without your consent while you are crying, then demand gratitude and payment from you for staying in my home and torture you if you fail to pay. This is not justice. The Mullahs in Iran did just that. They imprisoned and then executed their detractors and made their families pay for the food they served them in jail and even bullets used to kill them. This is not justice and not befitting for a real God. Assuming this world is such a wonderful place to be, which many disagree, no one must thank God for being here because we have been forced to live in this prison called life. We did not ask for it and should not be required to thank anyone for what we did not want to begin with.
Thanking God should be an entirely personal matter. Those whose life is full of blessing and joy may choose to thank God and those who don’t want to thank him should not be punished for it because they never asked to be born in the first place. Therefore punishing people for disbelief is patent injustice. To add insult to injury, if you become fed up of your life and decide to end it, you will surely be sent to hell to burn for eternity. This is the maximum form of abuse.
Thanking must always be voluntary. If it becomes obligatory it is no longer heartfelt. A despot may enjoy seeing his subjects bow in front of him, but do they really love him? Love can never be forced on people. To say love me or I will torture you is sick. Is Allah a psychopath?
the god of Islam did not create the world out of love but out of need. Allah in the Quran says: “I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.” 51:56 Why Allah needs to be served if he is needless? It is very clear that Allah is a needy god. In fact his needs are so intense that if someone does not serve him he would punish that person for eternity in the cruelest way imaginable. This is the highest form of abuse. Humans are brought to this world without their will. Most of them suffer pains and sorrows most of their lives and on top of that they have to thank, worship and serve the one who is responsible for their miseries?
Justice dictates that punishment should be proportionate to the offence. It is not justice to torture a person for life for stealing an apple. Assuming that disbelief is a crime, which is absurd, why should such a trivial offence be punished in such a sever way? Why is Allah hurt so much if we do not worship him to the extent that he would heartlessly burn us in such a sadistic way for eternity? This punishment outweighs the crime infinitely. How can we call such a sadistic deity just?
I am much kinder to my cat than God is to me. I feed my cat, take care of him, take him to the vet if he gets sick, wash him and groom him and I never think of punishing him if he does not pay attention to me. As a matter of fact my cat thinks he owns the house and I am his servant. He owes his entire existence to me. Without my care and protection he will not survive. Despite that he never thanks me and I still love him. Let us say God created me. But he does not take care of me. I am left in this world to fend for myself. I have faced calamities that could have been avoided if God was looking over my shoulders. I would die of hunger if I do not earn my own bread. Tens of thousands of children die every day of hunger. Where is this loving god to come to their rescue? He is nowhere to be found when we are in need. Our prayers and supplications are never heard. I am by all means kinder to my cat than God is to me. And yet I can love my cat unconditionally without wanting him to worship me or thank me. God is incapable of loving his creation unconditionally. He put us in this world without consulting us. Here we have to face life with all its difficulties and pains on our own. He takes away our loved ones and fills our hearts with great sorrow. He shatters our hopes. He sends one calamity after another and kills innocent people by thousands and despite all that he wants us to worship him and serve him. Why should we thank such a god? What do we owe him?
The truth is that Allah is Muhammad’s own alter ego. He is everything the narcissist Muhammad wanted to be. He does what he pleases and he responds to no authority above him. He wants to be worshipped, obeyed and feared. This is the wet dream of all narcissists. One must be naïve to believe that the maker of this universe is this insane god described by Muhammad. Why would one who owns this magnificent universe care if a bunch of humans in this tiny plant worship him or not? Can we really hurt the feelings of the maker of this vast universe by simply disbelieving in him? There are many holes in the concept of god as defined by the illiterate self-proclaimed prophet of Arabia.
This is not to say that God does not exist. I am not a materialist. I believe God is the Principle underlying all things. God is a non-being and this non-being is the mother all beings. God is an immutable eternal law without which nothing can exist. All I want to prove is that Muhammad was indeed an ignorant man who had no understanding of God whatsoever. Attributing human qualities to God is utmost ignorance. To say God is just, merciful or compassionate is stupid. How can an indefinable and incomprehensible reality have human attributes? God is beyond good and bad. God is not a thing and as such It can have no attributes. Only things have attributes. Principles do not have attributes. God cannot be living because life is a function of beings. God is not a being. It is not made of anything - not of matter and not of spirit. It has no essence, no substance. God is HOW. How things are made, how the universe works, how life comes to be and how it ends. God is HOW and everything else is WHAT. That is all there is - HOW and WHAT.
Muhammad was an ignorant man. Allah was a Pagan deity, invented by very primitive people. These people thought that the highest expression of power is despotism. So the qualities that they attributed to their gods were those of a despot. Muhammad, being a narcissist, loved to impersonate this despot and become a god or his sole intermediary. Becoming godlike is the wet dream of every narcissist. That is why Muhammad’s Allah is capricious, arbitrary, willful and wanton. The concept of Allah is utterly stupid. It is not befitting for rational people in this day and age to believe in such a primitive deity.
It is a logical absurdity to say that God is the creator. God is the law that gives order to the universe and makes it run. God is manifest in every atom, in every minute particle forming this universe and wherever there is order. And yet It is nowhere to be found. God is not a person, not a being, not a thing. It is the Principle underlying all things. It is a reality, the ultimate Reality.
I cannot believe in a god that sends messengers, answers prayers, rewards or punishes. Because in the first case a god that possesses attributes, is being separated from his attributes. A being cannot be infinite unless you and I are part of it. And in the second case, a god that acts is limited in time and in space. What if we did not think of God as wise, but as wisdom? What if we did not view him as loving, but love? What if God was not compassionate but compassion? What if God was not a "being"? What if It was not a "thing", things have attributes. What if we thought of God as the Principle underlying the creation? What if God was the Reality? Reality is formless, eternal and unchanging. As the Reality, God would not have attributes. It would be the Principle behind the process of creation. It would be the Principle and the creation the process. The Principle does not act. It does not create, it does not send messengers. Being aware is an attribute. God has no attributes. Instead God is awareness itself. It is not knowing, but knowledge itself. It is not loving, but love itself.
Note that I did not use the pronoun "he" or "she" to speak of God, but "It"; because God is not a person. "It", is a Reality. "It", is the Ultimate Reality.
Posts: 156 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
I would also like to know. and i dont understand why no muslim on the forum answer these questions.
Posts: 32 | From: hurghada | Registered: Sep 2007
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you highlighted many points worthy of discussion. I don't have answers to everything, but I can agree on some of the topics you put for discussion.
First of all muslims have never reached a consensus regarding GOD's nature and attributes, and surprisingly your view of GOD is very much similar to the Mutazili and Jaffari schools of theology. In fact if you read the 1st sermon of Imam Ali from Nahj al balagha you'll be surprised as it says in part of it...
"The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him"
I also agree that GOD is not a person, but in arabic language there's no "it" pronoun. It's either he or she, and that doesn't nessecarily confer gender or personality.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
I suggest reading GOD and his attributes by Sayyid Mujtaba Musavi Lari, it will give all readers a better understanding of what a large group of Muslims believe regarding that delicate matter.
-------------------- One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. Posts: 18 | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
Allah so jealous if humans worship gods that do not exist because God who will punish them at the end so he is trying to gives them chances as they are his children and because he loves them he wants them to follow him and feel rest.
God's word Jesus said: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Strangeways...good points. However i think ALL religions are illogical and primitive.
Posts: 142 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
There are only two types of religion on this eareth, true or false, one is under the control of Almighty God the other is of Satan The Devil, thus God is "jealous" for true religion!
Posts: 370 | From: England | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
As usual someone not understanding the bakcground of a word in its original language leads to a quesiton that doesn't really apply when one knows what is being said:-
JEHOVAH describes himself as “a jealous God.” You may wonder why, since the word “jealousy” has negative connotations. Of course, God’s dominant quality is love. (1 John 4:8) Any feelings of jealousy on his part must therefore be for mankind’s good. In fact, we shall see that God’s jealousy is vital to the peace and harmony of the universe.
The related Hebrew words for “jealousy” occur over 80 times in the Hebrew Scriptures. Almost half of these references are to Jehovah God. “When applied to God,” explains G. H. Livingston, “the concept of jealousy does not carry the connotation of a warped emotion, but, rather, of an insistence on the singleness of worship of Jehovah.” (The Pentateuch in Its Cultural Environment) Thus, the New World Translation sometimes renders the Hebrew noun “insistence on exclusive devotion.” (Ezekiel 5:13) Other appropriate renderings are “ardor” or “zeal.”—Psalm 79:5; Isaiah 9:7.
Man was created with the capacity to feel jealous, but mankind’s fall into sin has resulted in a distortion of jealousy. Nevertheless, human jealousy can be a force for good. It can move a person to protect a loved one from bad influences. Moreover, humans can properly show jealousy for Jehovah and his worship. (1 Kings 19:10) To convey the correct understanding of such jealousy for Jehovah, the Hebrew noun may be translated “toleration of no rivalry” toward him.—2 Kings 10:16.
Jehovah’s Jealousy. Jehovah describes himself as “a God exacting exclusive devotion.” (Ex 20:5, ftn; De 4:24; 5:9; 6:15) He also says: “Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God.” (Ex 34:14) Over what and with what kind of jealousy? Not with the envious, selfish jealousy of humans. It is a jealousy, a zeal or ardor for his holy name, concerning which he himself says: “I will show exclusive devotion for my holy name.”—Eze 39:25.
For his name. When one considers what God’s name stands for, the reason for his “insistence on exclusive devotion” becomes clear. (Eze 5:13) His name represents all that is right and righteous. He is holy, clean, upright, loyal in the superlative degree. (Isa 6:3; Re 4:8; 16:5) His sovereignty is necessary to the existence of the universe, and allegiance to his sovereignty and laws is essential to the order and peace of all creation. (Pr 29:2; 1Co 14:33) His jealousy is therefore a pure, clean jealousy and is altogether for the benefit of his creatures, as their devotion brings him—the Creator, Provider, and Giver of all good things—no profit. (Job 41:11; Ps 145:16; Ro 11:35; Jas 1:17; Re 4:11) But in his devotion to righteousness his heart is made glad with loving appreciation when his servants stand firm for righteousness and give exclusive devotion to him.—Pr 23:15, 16; 27:11.
Those serving God can rely on him to establish righteousness, being confident in his zeal for his name. He illustrated his zeal in his dealings with ancient Israel, and he tells us of the destruction of earthly governments and the establishment of the government of the Prince of Peace with justice and righteousness, saying: “The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.”—Isa 9:6, 7; Zep 3:8, 9.
quote:does not carry the connotation of a warped emotion, but, rather, of an insistence on the singleness of worship of Jehovah.”
“The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm.” -Nahum 1:2-8
“All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy.” -Zephaniah 3:6-10
"Because you have sinned against the LORD, I will make you as helpless as a blind man searching for a path. Your blood will be poured out into the dust, and your bodies will lie there rotting on the ground." Your silver and gold will be of no use to you on that day of the LORD's anger. For the whole land will be devoured by the fire of his jealousy. He will make a terrifying end of all the people on earth. -Zephaniah 1:7:18
Gotta admit, that is slightly warped.
“Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a God superior to themselves. Most Gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child”- Robert A. Heinlein
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
wow i actually wasted my time reading this whole page. who are you to say who god is. no one in this universe knows if god exists or not
Posts: 506 | From: Some where on the east coast | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:wow i actually wasted my time reading this whole page. who are you to say who god is. no one in this universe knows if god exists or not
You know, you will never know for certain whether of not the Easter bunny exists, as you cannot prove the negative. Also, you can never know for certain if hobbits, elves, talking snakes, invisible unicorns, santa, etc, do not exist, but I bet you have picked a side on all of those. So, so what if people pick a side with gods too- they look at the evidence provided, and come to a conclusion, just like we all did with Santa et el. Sometimes the conclusion is just on different sides.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Hi wkitty - must stop meeting like this :-)
jUST TAKING SIMPLE QUOTES WIHTOUT THIER CONTEXT IS A LITTLE UNFAIR DON'T YOU THINK-? opos caps lock - sorry...
Why does God take vengeance on his enemies - what are his enemies doing thatis so bad...?
Zeph 1:9 And I will give attention to everyone that is climbing upon the platform in that day, those who are filling the house of their masters with violence and deception
Zeph 3:3
Her princes in the midst of her were roaring lions. Her judges were evening wolves that did not gnaw [bones] till the morning. 4 Her prophets were insolent, were men of treachery. Her priests themselves profaned what was holy; they did violence to [the] law.
The Israelites had vowed to live by Jheovah's commandments - instead they were doing the exact opoosite..violence, treahcery, abuse of widows and orphans, wife beating and divorcing to marry younger women without any cause except to satisfy their lusts(see the other small books from Hosea to Malachi and you'll get the picture)
SO people complain that God DOESN"T do anything and then when he does they say OH why is God punishing these poor guys ....hmmm seems like its a bit of a lose -lose situation for GOd to me...?
Read the explanation of the word jealousy I gave above - in my opinion translations that use the word zeal convey the thought of the Hebrew word better.
God's zeal for what is right and for justice moves him to act in behalf of the innocent. That is why he promises ot do the same again in our time ..because guess what ?
The exact same things listed above and far worse are going on today - those words apply more now than ever ..rest assured that becasue of God's "jealousy" ..."To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this...(Isaiah 9:7) " Notice how the zeal (or jealousy ) of Jebovah is linked with righteousness and justice - that is ALWAYS the case when God brings judgment /punishment on those who WILLFULLY refuse to stop abusing their free will to the detriment of their fellow humans.
Sounds very unwarped and pretty amazing stuff to me ..no human government has ever /will ever do this.All they do is slap them on the wrist and let them go for them to repeat offend; in the main worse than before..
Murderers, rapists , paedophiles, wife batterers, terrorists that's the tip of the iceberg...hmmmm ...God -please bring it on I say. Before we end up destroying ourselves and the planet we live on.
Posts: 148 | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
If you look at the quotes I gave above, I did give the full passage numbers, the only reason why I didn't post the whole thing, was because I know people just skim long posts (so I apologise in advance, lol)
Do you believe god is omniscient (all knowing)- the bible states that he is. This means billions of years before he even created us, he knew exactly what was going to happen, every little detail. Despite knowing this, he still made the tree of knowledge, so it wasn't even a test before you play that card. We are not at fault here, we are just doing exactly what he knew we would. When a creation goes wrong, you blame the creator- and if God did decide: Hang on, this isn't right (like he did with the flood)- the way he kills is sick. All he has to do is snap his fingers and be rid of the evil... in fact, let’s look at the flood for a second: Only one family (lead by a man who later intoxicated himself, got naked, then cursed his innocent grandson) survived, and two of the dirty animals, seven of the clean. All other men, woman, children and animals drowned. I don't know if you have done much research into drowning, but lets just say it isn't a pleasant experience. Were the animals sinners too, the children? Clearly god isn't pro-life, because surely some of the women were pregnant. And what about those bears he sent on children who were taking the mick out of a bald guy (really, does the crime fit the punishment there?). Psalms tells people the smash little ones against rocks. And children who disobey parents should be killed (that coming about a page after "thou shall not murder"). In fact, Egyptians should be pretty annoyed at this god for what he done to their first born sons! Yeah, God is all for punishing the children for the sins of their parents- in fact, he is pretty into punishing future generations for the sins of their ancestors too. And before anyone says: Oh that’s the OT, Jesus came and etc etc etc... So what, that doesn't make ok for God to do such things. It has been calculated god killed two million people in the bible. Satan killed ten. (No, I'm not a Satanist, I don't believe in him either lol). Every generation for the last two thousand years have thought Jesus will come again in their time- we are still waiting, exactly how long are believers going to give that guy? Lets all go back to worshipping the sun! After all, Jesus is just a copy of the sun god Mithra (who predates the big J), and is the reason why we celebrate around easter time and Christmas… ahem, I mean Mithrasmas He has my vote- after Odin of course.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Jealousy, love, hate, etc.. All seem to be attributes of MAN. If you have an omniscient being with these attributes, what do you need a "Satan" for?
What then is Satan's purpose?
If there is a such thing as Satan, one thing is for sure, he created religion. I can't think of any more atrocities in history done in the name of it.
Some people feel if you do wrong GOD punishes you. Most religous people feel everything that is wrong in their lives are attributed to the devil. What about looking at ourselves. I'm quite sure whatever is going wrong in your life can be pinpointed to your own faults.
Do you really need a religion to teach you right from wrong?
Do you really need a religion to get your life in perspective?
I'm not trying to be insensitve to anyone's belief. But i find religion, as a collective, to be extremely destructive in understanding ones neighbor. I see it as a tool to seperate and make one feel superior to believe his religion is better than another. On the outside looking in, i see them all as the same.
Posts: 142 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Shahrazat wants to know why Strangeways provokes people with the lead off topic.
I want to know why Shahrazat refuses to be stimulated by thought-provoking, yet old, ways of analyzing. I say old ways because it needs to be brought front and center aqain to make one see.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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""Do you believe god is omniscient (all knowing)- the bible states that he is""
Where does it state that?
God CAN foreknow anything he wishes of course but does he CHOOSE to do this. NO for the very reasons you gave..Scriptures CLEARLY show that God does not choose to know everything in advance - simlpe reason he doesn't need to - he can deal with any situation that arises..
e.g Genesis 18:20 Consequently Jehovah said: “The cry of complaint about Sod′om and Go·mor′rah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy. 21 I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it .”
God uses his foreknowledge selectivley otherwise as you rightly point out all the nonsense in the world would at one time have existed only in God's mind so to speak.
God clearly encourages us to follow his guidance and CHOOSE life.
the reaosn why the world is in such a mess is because God is not ruling it . Satan is the ruler of this world - this is a clear Bible teaching.. (1 John 5:19) We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.
Luk 4:5-7 5 So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; 6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it . 7 You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.”
2 Cor 4:3,4 3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
Regarding the flood everybody had ample warning ..God never brings about judgement without letting people have a chance to change.. If a parent follows a certian path knowing that his child will suffer - it's Gods fault is it? Why did God bring the flood (rememebr the Bible gives us edited highlights so to speak not always masses of description ) It succinctly says at Genesis 6;5,11,12
Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time 11 And the earth came to be ruined in the sight of the [true] God and the earth became filled with violence. 12 So God saw the earth and, look! it was ruined, because all flesh had ruined its way on the earth
In a nutshell complete and utter moral bankruptcy due to the angels coming down to earth, marrying women and giving rise to a hybrid generation of bullies - Gen 6:1 2.. then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves and verse 4 The Neph′i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame. ( by the way thats where Odin , Thor etc legends seem to come from ,along with Hindu gods with human tendencies and lusts )
Anyway so as not to make too long a post :-0
Final point the world was put on notice for 120 years that God was going to do this :
2 Peter 2:5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people;
Gneesis 6:3 After that Jehovah said: “My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years.”
So whose fault is it that the parents didn't listen and stop the badness , violence that was FILLING the earth? God's I suppose ????????
Who was responsible for the deaths of their own children? If you told an adult that there was a time bomb ticking unfer his house and he ignored you whose fault would it be when it went off and killed him and his family - yours??
You want to be a journalist I understand-? Please analyse the facts fully then make a decision. The Bible gives overwhelming evidence that it could not have been written by men - how do you explain that evidence especially the DETAILED prophecies? To dismiss it on the basis of a few verses when you are not looking at the overall message of the Bible doesn't make sense in my opinion.
Posts: 148 | Registered: Nov 2007
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and is the reason why we celebrate around easter time and Christmas… ahem, I mean Mithrasmas
Correct - that is why we don't celebrate Christmas or Easter - both are pagan festivals as you rightly point out...
Posts: 148 | Registered: Nov 2007
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If there is a such thing as Satan, one thing is for sure, he created religion. I can't think of any more atrocities in history done in the name of it.
You are almost right ;-)
Satan created all false religions - of which there are thousands - because he wants to deceive humans. .
1 John 3:8,10
8 He who carries on sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from [the] beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, namely, to break up the works of the Devil.
10.The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother.
The Bible shows that the end of all false religion is coming on apace
Rev 18:2 2 And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird! 3 For because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen [victim], and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury.” 4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.
Posts: 148 | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
This may seem like blasphamy and is not intended to offend. But curiously I'm asking..
If throughout scripture GOD favors one man over another or even one race of people over another....how can he truely be just?
If GOD posseses lower attributes of man, such as jealousy and hatred. Plus the whole book of Job is about a bet, which is a form of gambling. Would not all those be considered sins?
If this is the case....nothing in the universe or heavens is above sin.
quote:Originally posted by kalos: The Bible shows that the end of all false religion is coming on apace
What then is the correct religion? It's all speculative. I don't see false religions coming to an end. Not unless something is revealed. A "Divine" intervention. Which i don't see happening. Man has always felt a need to believe in something greater than himself. I understand that concept.
But really we need to just look at ourselves, use common sense on what's right and what's wrong, and respect our neighbors. It's pretty simple as that.
The Bible is not THE BOOK it is just A BOOK.
Posts: 142 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2008
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''God CAN foreknow anything he wishes of course but does he CHOOSE to do this. NO for the very reasons you gave..Scriptures CLEARLY show that God does not choose to know everything in advance - simlpe reason he doesn't need to - he can deal with any situation that arises.''
...then on Sodom and Gommorah:
e.g Genesis 18:21: Consequently Jehovah said: . 21 I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it .”
This is a clear admission that God doesn't know everything. It seems someone, an informant no doubt, has been talking to God such that He sees fit to intervene in this affair, thus giving rise to a not so omniscient God.
However, contrast the above seemingly lack of omniscience with:
Proverbs 15:3: The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.
Job 21:22: Can anyone teach God knowledge, since He judges those on high?
...and this:
Psalms 139 1-4: Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising; thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
I'm sure there are many other references to God's omniscience elsewhere in the book.
There are two ways of looking at this I think. First maybe man is the one ascribing these omniscient attributes to God since, presumably, he was in an undeveloped state and didn't or couldn't recognize omniscience when he saw it and, secondly, a fear of not recognizing omniscience is a telling factor in how man describes God. Considering how the fear factor is present throughout the Old Testament then it's no wonder many tacked on the label of omniscience. Same as being told how to follow instructions so future generations will toe the line.
Having said that, omniscience is misapplied when it comes to man's interpretation of the Deity. If one allows for this power then it follows that everything is determined before the inception of, well, anything. On the other hand if we can allow fallibility in God's maneuvering and, we can, then it makes sense to know that God isn't omniscient from the traditional Christian perspective, and, I'm sure, the Allah version too.
From my perspective this Deity doesn't operate outside the bounds of human understanding; otherwise why is it that opposing sides see this issue in very different ways. Seen another way, you see God, you see humans... or, you see humans, you see God. No apologetics need be applied in this understanding.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:""Do you believe god is omniscient (all knowing)- the bible states that he is""
Where does it state that?
(1 John 3:20) whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, AND HE KNOWS EVERYTHING.
(Isaiah 46:10) I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
(Psalm 147:4,5) He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
(Acts 15:18) Known to God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
(Psalm 33:13) The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
quote:Regarding the flood everybody had ample warning ..God never brings about judgement without letting people have a chance to change.. If a parent follows a certian path knowing that his child will suffer - it's Gods fault is it? Why did God bring the flood (rememebr the Bible gives us edited highlights so to speak not always masses of description ) It succinctly says at Genesis 6;5,11,12
How do you warn a baby, or an animal? The flood idea was sick, and no just god would have done it. Yes, it was very much gods fault- he could have snapped his fingers and made them good, he is meant to be omnipotent (do you want the passages for that too?) but instead he decided to flood the world, and thereby causing everyone (including babies, and animals) a torturous death.
quote:Gneesis 6:3 After that Jehovah said: “My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years.”
So whose fault is it that the parents didn't listen and stop the badness , violence that was FILLING the earth? God's I suppose ????????
Who was responsible for the deaths of their own children? If you told an adult that there was a time bomb ticking unfer his house and he ignored you whose fault would it be when it went off and killed him and his family - yours??
So children should be blamed for the faults of their parents? That's nuts (and morbid). You can't kill a newborn because their dad is a murderer, or rapist, etc. If a parent locked the kid out of the house, and the kid then got murdered- yes, the parent is partially to blame, but so is the murderer. God here is the murderer. As an omnipotent being, he would have had an unlimited ways to go about making the world better, it doesn't take a genius to think that perhaps a flood was a bit crude, pointless, and plain evil- sounds like just a silly story made up by man, not a godly fact. And if there is a god, and he would do something like that, then my word I would never worship him.
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quote:Originally posted by weirdkitty: [QUOTE]Yes, it was very much gods fault- he could have snapped his fingers and made them good, he is meant to be omnipotent (do you want the passages for that too?) but instead he decided to flood the world, and thereby causing everyone (including babies, and animals) a torturous death.
He could, but he didn't. How can that be, with God having created it? Is He evil, that He wanted the world to be imperfect, or is He simply not mighty enough to create a perfect world?
Let us see what the Bible has to say on this subject. One of the reasons for men’s creation is that we might honour God by praising Him and doing His will - and I am sure the Koran will agree. If I am being praised, or people do my will, does that honour or dishonour me? It honours me.
Now suppose I pay someone to praise me, or I force him to do so, would it still be an honourable thing? Or if I had a tape recorder praising me all day, would that be honourable? No.
The praise would be devoid of sincerity. So clearly the praise per se is not enough in itself. The one praising must do so from his own free will and inclination.
Suppose I built a robot that could only do what I wanted it to do, and it would do my will and praise me, would that honour me? No, it wouldn’t, because it would not be free.
So if I want to be honoured by someone doing my will and praising me, I should give this person (or robot, or whatever) the possibility to go against my will, and to refrain from praising me, maybe even to curse me.
Along another track, which is better: a person who is free, or one who is not free to choose his own way?
in a perfect world, men would be free to choose between good and evil? suppose that for every choice you make, I already decide the outcome. So you may freely decide whether to go to Sévaré or to Douentza, but whichever you chose, I would make you end up in Sévaré. Would that be free? it definitely wouldn’t.
So in a perfect world, your choices would have real consequences. In particular, evil choices have evil consequences.
Well, then. The Bible teaches that God created a perfect world, inhabited by angels and men who had a free will, and that one of the angels, the devil, chose the evil way. After that, he seduced man into choosing against God as well. That made the devil perfectly evil, since he chose against God without any external cause, whereas man only sinned under the stress of seduction, so he is not fully and purely evil. http://www.answering-islam.org/Intro/discussion.pdf
quote:Originally posted by weirdkitty: [QUOTE]So children should be blamed for the faults of their parents? That's nuts (and morbid). You can't kill a newborn because their dad is a murderer, or rapist, etc. If a parent locked the kid out of the house, and the kid then got murdered- yes, the parent is partially to blame, but so is the murderer. God here is the murderer. As an omnipotent being, he would have had an unlimited ways to go about making the world better, it doesn't take a genius to think that perhaps a flood was a bit crude, pointless, and plain evil- sounds like just a silly story made up by man, not a godly fact. And if there is a god, and he would do something like that, then my word I would never worship him.
I like this illustration to explain original sin because it illustrates that original sin is always there, it’s not something that just “shows up” later.
Imagine you’re a farmer picking up rocks in your field and getting rid of them. At first it seems kind of easy, but the more you pick up the more there are to pick up. As you uncover more and more rocks in your field, you find some that are too heavy to pick up or too deeply rooted in the ground. Eventually if you keep digging up rocks and dirt you get to the point where you hit bedrock which you can neither pick up nor get rid of. Likewise, it’s easy to “get rid of” tiny sins, but the more you expel from your life the more there are. Some sins are so deeply rooted you can’t pick them up and throw them away, and eventually you will realize that despite your best efforts, original sin cannot be gotten rid of.
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1 John 3:20) whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, AND HE KNOWS EVERYTHING.
Look at the context and see what's being discussed and you have your answer- what are ALL the things that God knows - the self condemning thoughts we have !
God can choose to know anything he wants at any time to say he HAS to know EVERYTHING is imposing your imperfect standard of what/who he is ..if God is simply some number/fact crunching machine, according to you, he must then know how many tissues I filled today when I had a cold , how many cracks are in my garden paving and a literally never ending list of trivia..does that make sense IF God exists??
(Isaiah 46:10) I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
Notice the specifcs of this verse God foreknows things related to HIS purpose -
(Psalm 147:4,5) He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Of course his understanding is infinite , he understands us and all his creation ..this verse says NOTHING about his foreknowledge
(Acts 15:18) Known to God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Again, HIS works - NOT WHAT EVERYBODY WILL CHOOSE TO DO.. OTHERWISE (oops capslock ) he would already have judged them..
(Psalm 33:13) The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
Yes - exactly! To see what they will do ..if he already knew it why bother beholding them??
Sorry WKitty none of those verses remotely support your argument..and there are none that do ..I clearly dmonstarted to you from scripture and reason (I hope) that God chooses to know whatever he needs to - he is not obliged to know every tiny trivial matter going on ..that is ridiculous in the extreme...
God being Omniscient in the Bible means he can choose to know anything .
and thanks for offering to show me but I already know the Bible does show that God is omnipotent.
It also shows that man is a free moral agent and will reap what he sows...
With an understanding of these two basics the Bible accounts make a whole lot of sense.
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The world is irreformably violent and corrupt, murder and violent crime are as common as grass ..only 8 people out of hundreds of millions are doing what is right - at what point do you say OK ..the people on here are never going to reform ? And take action? Tough questions for sure and God is the ONLY one who can see all the facts , weigh them up acucrately and make the right decision. God gave them 120 years to mend their ways.
Please remember that God can read hearts (when he chooses to ;-)) and he knows when enough is enough . I trust his judgment..creation and the scriptures show He is a just God ..anyone who does not deserve to die/ deserves a second chance will be resurrected (Jesus being a case in point)..God is the final arbiter.
(Acts 24:15) 15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
Posts: 148 | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote: 1 John 3:20) whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, AND HE KNOWS EVERYTHING.
Look at the context and see what's being discussed and you have your answer- what are ALL the things that God knows - the self condemning thoughts we have
Does it, or does it not say everything? It is not limiting itself to thoughts, whatever. It says everything. If I said- God can knit, he can do everything. Now, the context is about knitting, but the choice of words clearly imply that I am including the knitting but as well as all other things. Everything means everything- and considering I have spoken to Christians who believe God does indeed know everything (the passages I gathered were from a Christian site about how God is omniscient), then don’t try to say I am just taking passages out of context, or that is not what they actually mean, etc- you just choose to see them differently, you have no idea if it is rightly too.
quote: WKitty regarding the flood..
So offer us your solution ...?
If I was omnipotent- Perhaps I’ll click my fingers, and have the world perfect. And don’t say: “But what about free will”- because it would be just as much freewill as god gave the babies and animals when he flooded them. Oh, and 8 people doing right- you can’t mean Noah? Any God with the slightest common sense would have known he was far from good- or need I remind you of his binge drinking, naked slumber, and then cursing his Innocent grandson. I know, lets do what god does- lets put all the criminals into a big chamber, and drown them. Hey, if it’s good enough for god… or would that be considered wicked? Evil perhaps? Rather reminiscent of concentration camps. But you give god moral subjectivism. That is to say that the morality of an action depends on who is doing the action. So what is immoral for humans to do is moral for God to do simply because he is God. That is nuts. God does one immoral thing after another in the bible (the flood is just the more commonly talked about)- I do not only not believe in him, but I don’t like the character either! Either way, the creator is blaming the creation, which is idiotic. If I was colouring, and went outside the line, I blame myself, not the picture. In the flood he would have murdered children, babies and animals too (as well as those still in the womb). But hey, the bible shows God is partial to baby/children killing- he puts characters like Sauron to shame!
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Strangeways says: ''Is He evil, that He wanted the world to be imperfect, or is He simply not mighty enough to create a perfect world?''
Well he obviously isn't mighty enough to create a perfect world, that is, in the traditional understanding of an all knowing creator. This in effect reduces him to nothing more but an ''advanced'' deity who seemingly has no understanding of just what it is he created. This is some of that pot and kettle syndrome.
On the evil part Isaiah 45:7 has him taking credit for evil too. By the way this verse is the King James version which isn't as watered down as some of the newer interpretations, e.g. ''I bring bad times'' as opposed to ''I create evil.''
"One of the reasons for men’s creation is that we might honour God by praising Him and doing His will - and I am sure the Koran will agree. If I am being praised, or people do my will, does that honour or dishonour me? It honours me."
If this would mean an adherence to God's will to do something against my conscience, which for purposes of conversation, is supposedly God-given anyway, then why would it be dishonorable if I see no reason to go against my conscience, which is God-given also. Yet my conscience tells me specifically not to accept too much of anything in the Old Testament when it comes to a seemingly all-powerful deity who has the power to create perfection from the beginning, yet doesn't.
Kalos gets around this by saying the Deity doesn't know everything. This avenue places man's misfortunes solely on his own doing while ignoring the creating aspect from God himself; which still is troublesome because we are led to believe we can somehow undo God's creation and invoke man's understanding of what he thinks A deity might want him to do.
''Now suppose I pay someone to praise me, or I force him to do so, would it still be an honourable thing?''
Actually He is paying someone to praise him simply because of the promise of everlasting life. And it also spills over into coercion because the alternative to not praising is fire and brimstone.
''Or if I had a tape recorder praising me all day, would that be honourable? No.''
Kalos (probably) would say this one wouldn't matter because God may or may not want to ''go down'' to find out what you really think. If God didn't want to go down to find out the truth then the tape recorder would be a legitimate way of praising him. I'm thinking Strangeways would say this would dishonor God because it is a recording and that this somehow makes null and void the expression of ''real'' intent, even though it could very well be real intent, just that it wouldn't be in the here and now kind; kind of like praising by proxy.
''The one praising must do so from his own free will and inclination.''
Which is also circular because the ''free will'' comes from God not man.
''Suppose I built a robot that could only do what I wanted it to do, and it would do my will and praise me, would that honour me? No, it wouldn’t, because it would not be free.''
It would have been a much more intelligent undertaking to create a robot because this approach would eliminate the need for free will and the apologetics that are necessarily attendent to the explanation of that free will.
''Along another track, which is better: a person who is free, or one who is not free to choose his own way?''
Once in heaven is this free will still going to be in operation or will it be 'robots' who are devoid of it. I'm putting my money on the human robots. This way there can be no dissension. I'm thinking the Deity may now realize this after the present fiasco.
I'm using my 'free will' to express myself. Am I dishonoring God by using thought processes He instilled in me.
''in a perfect world, men would be free to choose between good and evil?''
Even if this is rhetorical it would make no sense to have to choose between these opposing forces in a perfect world.
''suppose that for every choice you make, I already decide the outcome. So you may freely decide whether to go to Sévaré or to Douentza, but whichever you chose, I would make you end up in Sévaré. Would that be free? it definitely wouldn’t.''
As a creator the choice has already been determined; it has nothing to do with deciding to go one place or the other. The creator has seen to it at the creation which you will do.
''Well, then. The Bible teaches that God created a perfect world, inhabited by angels and men who had a free will, and that one of the angels, the devil, chose the evil way.''
I presume you mean earth when you say world? Or do you mean heaven in this particular case? If you do mean heaven then the plot thickens considerably—and menacingly.
''After that, he [the devil] seduced man into choosing against God as well. That made the devil perfectly evil, since he chose against God without any external cause, whereas man only sinned under the stress of seduction, so he is not fully and purely evil.''
Here Strangeways is limiting God so as to make Him incapable of discerning who his creation is, that is, the devil. We have an individual operating outside the bounds of God's creation and taking it upon himself to somehow interfere in a creation that was supposedly intact until the devil comes along, at his choosing, to override God's handling of his own creation.
What kind of concept is this ''perfectly evil'' concerning the devil. Kalos may not have trouble with this because he sees God as not all knowing, unless of course he wants him to be. In this view then God can be relieved of guilt in not knowing how the devil came to be who he is. Yet Strangeways seemingly won't limit God in this manner; he continually apologizes (for God) for difficult circumstances.
Finally what really is meant by ''no external cause''? Can this be construed to mean there actually can be external causes for the devil to become evil? If so then he did use this external cause because he ''wrecked'' the creation.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Let me repeat.God can choose to know anything He wants to - in advance if He wants to...If I have a radio do I have to have it swithced on permanently to prove I am it's owner?
I'm still waiting for someone to give me a more reasonable definition of his Omniscience..
and WKitty - yes i do know what is the right interpretation because i look at the WHOLE bIBLE AND DO NOT BUILD (oops) a Kingdom on one verse.
If I say in a book on knitting a stitch in time saves nine you could take that literally..if I later paraphrase it in another way to show I simly mean it saves time/ effort you would come to a not so literal conclusion wouldn't you?
Your interpretation lowers God to a sifter of trivia- and infinitely so..which is the more reasonable view if you accept for one second that God exists? Sorry - mine without a shadow of doubt.
Quoting form "Christian websites" will do you little good - these are probably the same guys that clebrate Mithrasmas, the worship of the goddess Astarte( Easter's goddess) and have the phallic symbol of the cross on their churches - when any decent Greek dictionary will show you that the word translated Cross by 99% of Bibles NEVER means anything other than a straightforward pole or stake.
Do yourself a favour and study the background and all the verses on a given subject and you'll come up with reasonable and logical conclusions every time ..
GRumman - no external forces needed ..the Devil made himself the Devil- originally he was a good and perfect angel :-
You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.”—John 8:44
James 1 :14,15 shows the process that evidently occurred:
But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death
and Ezekiel 28 seems to allude to Satans fall and wht led up to it:
Son of man, lift up a dirge concerning the king of Tyre, and you must say to him, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “‘“You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o·lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you . 16 “‘“Because of the abundance of your sales goods they filled the midst of you with violence, and you began to sin. And I shall put you as profane out of the mountain of God, and I shall destroy you, O cherub that is covering, from the midst of the fiery stones. 17 “‘“ Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You brought your wisdom to ruin on account of your beaming splendor. Onto the earth I will throw you. Before kings I will set you, [for them] to look upon you.
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WKitty - Noah - you cite 3 occassions he did something wrong - overall however he "walked with the true God..
Thank goodness you're not in a position to judge anyone.
As for criminals - irreformable , wicked , violent , sadistic criminals - let's get the right picture here... let them go free ..forget other peoples rights to live , maintian thier dignity and self respect ..let them all loose.
Even after 100 years or more of being warned repeatedly, over and over again that they would receive the death sentence if they didn't listen and stop it...
Really - moral relativism seems an apt decsription of what you picture as being right.
If there is a God he gave life - if it's used in a way that brings grief , trouble and heartache to everyone else then God has every right to take back what he gave -to cause justice to be done for the sufferers.
You forget (or maybe are unaware?) that the Nephilim were ripping people to shreds as a matter of course before the flood - but no problem there eh? Women being forced to marry and routinely being abused but of course none of them were pregnant surely..?
You seem pretty clued up on Norse mythology - as mentioned earlier that along with Hindu demi-gods and Greek heroes are echoes of what was happening before the flood - according to Genesis rebellious angels came to earth in human form and did all the aforementioned. Totally vile if you check.
Life is not something we have an absolute moral right to ..it's a gift to be used in the right way..
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quote: and WKitty - yes i do know what is the right interpretation because i look at the WHOLE bIBLE AND DO NOT BUILD (oops) a Kingdom on one verse.
No, you don’t know what is right, once again you just think your interpretation of it is. Like I have said, I have spoken to many Christian’s who believe God knows everything, and can do everything, you just choose to think he doesn’t choose to know it all, this isn’t a 100% Christian belief (considering how many sects there are in Christianity, thousands, nothing is 100% across the board, but let me guess, your sect is the one true one…).
quote: Quoting form "Christian websites" will do you little good - these are probably the same guys that clebrate Mithrasmas, the worship of the goddess Astarte( Easter's goddess) and have the phallic symbol of the cross on their churches - when any decent Greek dictionary will show you that the word translated Cross by 99% of Bibles NEVER means anything other than a straightforward pole or stake.
Erm, no- it was a site stating why god (the bible god) was all knowing and all powerful, it wasn’t a pagan site. Besides, Mithrasmas is my idea, no darn Christian will take it from me! And the only reason why I got it from a site, was because it is quicker, not because I do not know the bible. Hell, I’ve read that book more than Lord of the Rings!
quote: no external forces needed ..the Devil made himself the Devil- originally he was a good and perfect angel
First of all, where does Genesis say the serpent is the devil? In fact, it states it is just a more crafty wild animal. It is then cursed to crawl on its belly, and I’m pretty sure the devil doesn’t do this. Second of all, I thought God created everything, that means he created imperfectness too. Lets put it like this, goodness is white, evil black (cliché I know). Something all white (god) makes something all white (perfect world), please explain how it is then logic for that white thing, to then be able to create, or become blackness? If God made the devil perfect, then the devil would have had to stayed perfect, unless God also created evil. So, once again, all gods fault. But hey, without darkness, we wouldn’t have free will, we would be robots, why would God want that? Heaven is my idea of a nightmare, flaws make a person individual and beautiful, you might want to be a clone, but I do not.
quote: WKitty - Noah - you cite 3 occassions he did something wrong - overall however he "walked with the true God..
Thank goodness you're not in a position to judge anyone.
Genesis 9:20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said, "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers." 26 He also said, "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem.
Now then, what on earth did Canaan do in this picture? Nothing, he wasn’t even there. And you think Noah is a good guy? Clearly, I’m a better judge of character than god, but as I’ve said before, God is immoral anyway, so Noah is probably his kinda guy.
quote: As for criminals - irreformable , wicked , violent , sadistic criminals - let's get the right picture here... let them go free ..forget other peoples rights to live , maintian thier dignity and self respect ..let them all loose.
Don’t try and take my words out of context- did I say criminals should go free, no, I asked whether or not we should drown them, don’t try to sidestep the topic. Would it be immoral for us to drown criminals? (Oh, and by the way, I live in a country that doesn’t have the death penalty, so don’t try to tell me that is the only option with repeat offenders- also, if I was omnipotent, I would do ANYTHING that would mean avoiding killing people, no matter how bad they are, clearly I must be a nicer person than god. It takes less than a flick of the finger for him to turn them into good people, but nope, why bother when you can flood them, ay?) And I’m talking about the animals, children and babies who would have died in the flood, so stop saying they had warning. Just because their parents were guilty, doesn’t make them automatically so. But in the bible, it does, just like God still holding a grudge about the whole fruit issue, he needs to move on, he put the damn tree there, and it gives us free will to know both good and evil (yet we all know the reason why god kicked the people out of Eden was because he was scared they would eat from the garden of life, and become like gods). I can give you countless of examples where God has been immoral, I could write an essay just on Genesis! Killing a baby can never be justified, and sometimes in the bible, he actually targets them! It still amuses me that some people think atheists can’t have morals because we don’t follow the book about: "the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." (last part from chapter two of the God Delusion). Each to their own.
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Kalos wrote: ''Let me repeat.God can choose to know anything He wants to - in advance if He wants to...If I have a radio do I have to have it swithced on permanently to prove I am it's owner?''
On the radio (proof of ownership), of course not. But you will have to explain its content to others once it is turned on.
''I'm still waiting for someone to give me a more reasonable definition of his Omniscience.''
As noted by the other poster Christians and I'm sure many other persuasions will attest to the omnipotence of God despite your protestations that he can choose to know if he wants too. Actually I agree with you on his lack of omniscience simply because in order for him to know he would actually have to come down and question someone as it regards the facts. Kind of like a policeman trying to sort out details in a crime; a God with human attributes.
''GRumman - no external forces needed ..the Devil made himself the Devil- originally he was a good and perfect angel.''
So evil is present in heaven. And God had nothing to do with it by being the all powerful creator of the universe? Is there another God or two or three that can lay claim to this troubling aspect of humanity; which reduces the current God to insignificance?
James 1 :14,15 shows the process that evidently occurred:
each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death
Nothing wrong with this one because humans do that. No mystery here.
In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o·lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. day of your being created they were made ready.
I know you said this: ''the Devil made himself the Devil- originally he was a good and perfect angel.''
But is this, bold type, an admission by God that he didn't make the devil? Is it someone else's doing?
15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you
So God really isn't omniscient after all because he would have known this.
More on the devil
Onto the earth I will throw you. Before kings I will set you, [for them] to look upon you.
Right smack dab in the middle of the garden—before the creation of Adam and Eve.
An oversight no doubt.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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I wish we'd all throw our books aside and think logically about the subject "GOD". Instead of using somebody elses thoughts, it must be possible to think about it ourselves. Indeed the creation GOD must have been made with a purpose: GOD is our own conscience. In case of Mohamed, it is his conscience, in case of JC, is was his'. It is not a co-incedence that all religion are having the most important points in similar, this are the necesarry rules to live in a society. As I don't need a book to tell me what's good and what's wrong, I think most f the people don't need one. We all know very well, what's allowed and what's not. We know, but we don't. And when we don't, our conscience starts to speak. I can imagine somebody would name this a GOD, but it is our own awareness about good and bad.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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The potential for evil existed once God started creating agents with free will.
He did not create evil though ,,the Devil did that himself..if God foreknew everything why bother creating anything - it would all be an action replay of what he'd already seen.
and God has explained how evil got started and his own exercise of his ability to foreknow and prophecy - it's there clearly in the Bible..basically it is the story of how God has been working to undo what the Devil started..hence Revelation concludes with a restored human family enjoying the blessings that were put before Adam and Eve which they forsook in order to decide "right and wrong " for themselves..
Regarding the Devil and knowing he would beocme such ..again you are imposing your human level of reasoning. you imply that God HAS to have done what you see fit ..that removes his omnipotence doesn't it??
The Devil chose his path..a family may bring up their child decently and honestly - if he chooses to become a drug-dealer is that the parents doing?? Likewise with God he ALONE has the right to set standards of what is right and wrong ..the angel who became the Devil rejected God's righteous ways and CHOSE to set himself up in opposition to God.. Also is God such a suspicious sort that he would jsut pry into everyones thinking? What do you call that ?? God is not a petty person to have to resort to such actions.Being ALMIGHTY he can and does deal with any sitaution that arises in the best possible way.
Also you said:
As noted by the other poster Christians and I'm sure many other persuasions will attest to the omnipotence of God despite your protestations
They attest without any scriptural backing - I base my beliefs on what the COMPLETE Bible says -not one verse.
Too, none of them including you have answered my very simple question ..What does their view actually imply ..that God HAS to know the number of toilet rolls used on the planet today..the length of my toenails etc ete etc ad infinitum - this is the stupidest thing I have ever heard ..God CAN CHOOSE to know things relevant to him..he is ALMIGHTY ..he does not need to know everything by virtue of his Wisdom and Almigthiness ..I repeat:- the God of the Bible can deal with any situation presented without breaking sweat - he doesnt sit there counting how many droplets are under everyones armpits...
again here's the polite challenge ..give me a more reasonable definition of Omniscience than the Biblical one I believe ..I won't hold my breath...
Posts: 148 | Registered: Nov 2007
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""Onto the earth I will throw you. Before kings I will set you, [for them] to look upon you.
Right smack dab in the middle of the garden—before the creation of Adam and Eve. An oversight no doubt""
The oversight is yours I'm afraid ..notice the future tense ..this was something yet future when Ezekiel wrote it over 3,OOO Years after Adam and Eve.
Notice the mention of Kings ..Adam and Eve had no Kings over them -they were the first humans as you know.. ..
Posts: 148 | Registered: Nov 2007
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Kalos says: ''The potential for evil existed once God started creating agents with free will.''
Correction. The evil was there before He started creating.
''He did not create evil though ,,the Devil did that himself.''
No. Isaiah 45:7 says God did create evil.
''if God foreknew everything why bother creating anything - it would all be an action replay of what he'd already seen.''
I agree but mainstream Christianity lays the blame entirely on humans and this character called the devil. You sound like a maverick Christian. Do your neighbors know you're talking this way.
''and God has explained how evil got started and his own exercise of his ability to foreknow and prophecy - it's there clearly in the Bible. basically it is the story of how God has been working to undo what the Devil started.''
So we can agree on this: God isn't omniscient; otherwise he would have known what the devil was up to at all times. So you excuse God at this point by saying he can be all knowing if it suits him so. Sort of like turning omniscience on and off. I say he isn't omniscient because he can't know. This will explain His puzzlement concerning why the devil did such and such. After detailed verses show where it is suggested God is that way you ignore what the Bible says about omniscience. Either he is omniscient or he isn't. Simple statement considering the evidence against omniscience.
''Regarding the Devil and knowing he would beocme such ..again you are imposing your human level of reasoning. you imply that God HAS to have done what you see fit ..that removes his omnipotence doesn't it??''
No, it doesn't remove his omnipotence, just the omniscient part. He carried a bigger stick back in those days.
''The Devil chose his path..a family may bring up their child decently and honestly - if he chooses to become a drug-dealer is that the parents doing??''
You are ignoring too much what's been said already. Context has nothing to do with rearing a family in 2008. The focus is on why humans are the way they are, not because of a quiet or boisterous living room setting. Human nature didn't start last week.
''Likewise with God he ALONE has the right to set standards of what is right and wrong.''
If God is omniscient then it doesn't matter what is right and wrong since it came from God. If God isn't omniscient then He wouldn't have a say in the matter since it, right and wrong, came with the package in the beginning. This way modern-day enthusiasts won't have to apologize for human behavior.
''the angel who became the Devil rejected God's righteous ways and CHOSE to set himself up in opposition to God.''
I'm sure the devil felt as though he was acting in his own best interests. Same as modern societies doing what's best in their national interests. This assumes of course that God didn't create the devil. If he didn't then he isn't omnipotent. So this means there are yet others running to and fro in the universe who may be calling the shots instead of God and the devil.
''Also is God such a suspicious sort that he would jsut pry into everyones thinking? What do you call that ?? God is not a petty person to have to resort to such actions.''
...and you tell me I resort to human reasoning. Is there another way?
If God is all knowing and seeing then he has to peek once in a while. The suspense would be to great to ignore; just like humans do.
Kalos added: ""Onto the earth I will throw you. Before kings I will set you, [for them] to look upon you.
I said: ''Right smack dab in the middle of the garden—before the creation of Adam and Eve. An oversight no doubt.''
Kalos responded: ''The oversight is yours I'm afraid ..notice the future tense ..this was something yet future when Ezekiel wrote it over 3,OOO Years after Adam and Eve.''
Of course we all know Ezekiel wasn't on the scene in the garden so he got the information from somewhere to write down even though 3,000 years later. I believe it was established this was the devil being cast down; Ezekiel just commented on it.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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I can not claim that I read all the topic, but from what I understood, it is very strange one. This topic is very good examle of how some people can misguide others. God is gealous!!!! how funny. Those people do not want to think in the big and clear issue; who created the universe? who is God; Jesus, Budha, Allah, krishna, the dieties of ancient Egypt, the cow of india or there is no God at all. And even they claim that there is God and only one, they say why he is gealous because we worship Jesus , Budha or a stone statue !!! it is the same. I give an example,; is it fair if sombody prepared a coplete flat for you with all things you need, who you have to thank and be grateful? ; the person who offered or just any person you meet in the street or if you thank his window??. Can any person claim that he created himself? if no, why if the God who created you gave you a catalogue of how you can pass this life safely, you refuse and say you are jealous because it doesn't matter who I worship??. This show how funny when the man deletes his mind and follow any silly blah blah blah.
Posts: 130 | From: foggy bottom | Registered: Apr 2007
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Grumman: ""Isaiah 45:7 says God did create evil.""
Arrange this sentence in the correct order:
Kingdom scripture a Build one on.
and
knowledge Hebrew have no I of.
Evil- That which results in pain, sorrow, or distress. In order to convey the correct thought in English, the very comprehensive Hebrew word ra‛ is variously translated as “bad,” “gloomy,” “ugly,” “evil,” “calamitous,” “malignant,” “ungenerous,” and “envious,” depending upon the context. (Ge 2:9; 40:7; 41:3; Ex 33:4; De 6:22; 28:35; Pr 23:6; 28:22)
The Meaning of God's Bringing Evil. "" Rightly, Jehovah brought evil or calamity upon Adam for his disobedience. Hence, in the Scriptures, Jehovah is referred to as the Creator of evil or calamity. (Isa 45:7; compare KJ.) His enforcing of the penalty for sin, namely, death, has proved to be an evil, or a calamity , for mankind. So, then, evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing. Examples of evils or calamities created by Jehovah are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues visited upon Egypt. But these evils were not wrongs. Rather, the rightful administration of justice against wrongdoers was involved in both cases. However, at times Jehovah, in his mercy, has refrained from bringing the intended calamity or evil in execution of his righteous judgment because of the repentance on the part of those concerned.""
second:
Either he is omniscient or he isn't.
yaaaawnnnn - still waiting for your more reasonable - scripturally based- definition of omniscience than the one I believe in.
I agree that God is not Omniscient in the sense that he HAS to know everything in advance - a stance that is reasonable and scriptural and in harmony with God's qualiteis and personality.
True Omniscience is defined by God surely- not the Oxford pocket Dictionary
3rd:
Of course we all know Ezekiel wasn't on the scene in the garden so he got the information from somewhere to write down even though 3,000 years later. I believe it was established this was the devil being cast down; Ezekiel just commented on it.
Again you lack scriptural support for your view.
Book of Job shows Satan had free access to heaven long after Adam and Eve see Job ch 1 & 2
Revelation chapter 12 links this hurling down of Satan as being at the time when Jesus is to be enthroned as King during his second presence or "coming" as it's inaccurately translated in many Bibles. It says the Devil has been hurled down to you having great anger knowing he has a short period of time..Adam and Eve are not even hinted at when this happens.
Finally - all the prophets and Jesus early followers were viewed as mavericks ..Jesus said such would be the case..
“These things I command you, that you love one another. If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you .”—John 15:17-19.
If you wish to keep discussing please use Scriptural support /verses more . I'm not interested in too many personal opinions of other imperfect /sinful humans.
Posts: 148 | Registered: Nov 2007
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Kalos wrote: ''The Meaning of God's Bringing Evil. "" Rightly, Jehovah brought evil or calamity upon Adam for his disobedience.''
Presumably you are talking about God denying Adam eternal life. If Adam didn't know calamity how did God explain it to him? What reference point could be shown Adam to make him not sin, other than a simple don't do it. Isn't this the same as telling a kid in your household don't do that, that is, take your hand out of the cookie jar. What understanding did or could Adam have had of death to make him see death as a not so unreasonable approach to running his affairs? He ''sinned'' without too much of self- introspection. Does the fault lie with Adam? Are you certain you know the answer to this one?
''So, then, evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing. Examples of evils or calamities created by Jehovah are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues visited upon Egypt.''
That one has already been addressed above by Weirkitty; quite capably I might add.
further: ''But these evils were not wrongs. Rather, the rightful administration of justice against wrongdoers was involved in both cases.''
...punishing everyone for the sins of some is justice? And this is something I should admire in leadership qualities?
However, at times Jehovah, in his mercy, has refrained from bringing the intended calamity or evil in execution of his righteous judgment because of the repentance on the part of those concerned.""
More human-like attributes. Judges sitting on benches can show mercy once in awhile I guess. Instead of giving a death sentence make it life in prison.
''Either he is omniscient or he isn't.
yaaaawnnnn - still waiting for your more reasonable - scripturally based- definition of omniscience than the one I believe in.''
I've already established to my satisfaction God's lack of omniscience. You on the other hand have to come to grips with Christians and others who won't see how you can limit God to a ''yes I am, no I'm not stance.''
''True Omniscience is defined by God surely- not the Oxford pocket Dictionary.''
Actually there are 1,567 pages in my Random House Webster's College Dictionary.
So taking God out of the dictionary means you can define for God how you think he can or can't be omniscient; a word that has human meaning?
''Book of Job shows Satan had free access to heaven long after Adam and Eve see Job ch 1 & 2''
Yet there was no need to lock up Satan? Curious way of running affairs when you know a troublemaker is in the midst.
''If you wish to keep discussing please use Scriptural support /verses more.''
I'm not appealing to your understanding of verse, just common sense and compassion. Compassion not for murderers but those who couldn't get out of the way of God's wrath.
''I'm not interested in too many personal opinions of other imperfect/sinful humans.''
And what did you do with your mirror when you saw me coming? You broke it didn't you?
Final comment and question for you Kalos. If you have already finished cooking french fries then the grease is very hot isn't it. What if a 2 year old is in the kitchen with you and as kids do they reach for things, in their innocence. Do you tell the kid not to pull on the skillet handle and confidently walk away and assume this is okay or do you make the intelligent move and shove the skillet full of hot grease to the back burner so it can't be reached by that 2 year old?
purespring, what did you say?
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Boy oh boy- I just cannot get away from religious debates. I used to be an active member of sites: evilbible.com (brilliant site by the way, despite it's name), CV atheist, and yahoo answers, religion and spirituality section. However, when I met Sam, I decided to go cold turkey from those sites, because it seemed insulting going on pretty anti religious sites, when dating a Muslim (after all, I would be so offended if he went on anti atheist sites). However, some how, I've seemed to find myself once again getting into all this.
Anyway- Seriously, why are people still arguing about evil. God created it, I don't understand how that can be a disagreement. If God created a perfect world, without evil, then there would be no evil, UNLESS he done something wrong. If he done something wrong, then he is not perfect, and not omnipotent. Like I said above, if something all white, creates something all white, then it is illogical to think something black can come from it. God is the creator, yes, and everything is the creation. Fine- but the creation cannot do anything unless the creator has given it the tools to do so. We can go back to a robot example- if I program a robot, it can only do what I programmed it to do, unless I made a mistake somewhere.
God is the most evil character in the bible. He kills innocent people all the time. (“And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30) Etc)
If I missed this above, I'm sorry- but you still have not given me a good reason why God should kill children (and babies, and animals). He does it by a number of means, floods, bears, rocks, etc. Even if you can find me a logical reason why they had to die, then please find me a logical reason why they had to die like that? God is omnipotent, all powerful (that's if we are still using the dictionary for that definition). Being all-powerful means he would have had unlimited other options. He decided on murder. The bible doesn't give godly wisdom, it is just a book of its time, written by men- if god would really resort to such human characteristics, then he really isn’t worth worshipping.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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Grumman: What understanding did or could Adam have had of death to make him see death as a not so unreasonable approach to running his affairs
He ahd been cretaed - he realised surely when life was breathed in to him that he had not existed before..death = non existence.
""That one has already been addressed""
I'm still waitng for her solution to the fact that EVERY inclination of the heart of man(kind) was only bad all the time. Violent crime was pandemic. Everyone was warned for a century or so but no - the logical thing is to let poeple carry on indefinitely and then blame God for not taking action ...just like you question his way of doing things now without knowing all the fatcs - the Bible gives us precise summaries of many episodes - trusting God to judge fairly is something that only comes through looking at ALL his dealings with man...
Apart form WK saying she would forcibly take away everyones free will and change things for them irrespective. When humans do this they are termed despots /tyrants/dictators and if God forced people to do what he wants today I'm sure you and WK would be just as vocal against it as you she is now claiming she would have been for it .
""More human-like attributes""
Humans are made in God's image not the other way around - of course we only imperfectly display these qualities since mans deflection..
""So taking God out of the dictionary means you can define for God how you think he can or can't be omniscient; a word that has human meaning""
No. Having investigated and believed the Bible to be inspired of God I allow the Bible to show me how and in what way God uses his ability to foreknow. Human defintions are quite useless in this instance as they lead to ridiculous conclusions as I have repeatedly demonstrated.
""Yet there was no need to lock up Satan? Curious way of running affairs when you know a troublemaker is in the midst.""
The answer to this is quite lengthy I hope you'll bear with me :-
To find out why God allows suffering, we need to think back to the time when suffering began. When Satan led Adam and Eve into disobeying Jehovah, an important question was raised. Satan did not call into question Jehovah’s power. Even Satan knows that there is no limit to Jehovah’s power. Rather, Satan questioned Jehovah’s right to rule. By calling God a liar who withholds good from his subjects, Satan charged that Jehovah is a bad ruler. (Genesis 3:2-5) Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God’s rulership. This was an attack on Jehovah’s sovereignty, his right to rule.
Adam and Eve rebelled against Jehovah. In effect, they said: “We do not need Jehovah as our Ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong.” How could Jehovah settle that issue? How could he teach all intelligent creatures that the rebels were wrong and that his way truly is best? Someone might say that God should simply have destroyed the rebels and made a fresh start. But Jehovah had stated his purpose to fill the earth with the offspring of Adam and Eve, and he wanted them to live in an earthly paradise. (Genesis 1:28) Jehovah always fulfills his purposes. (Isaiah 55:10, 11) Besides that, getting rid of the rebels in Eden would not have answered the question that had been raised regarding Jehovah’s right to rule.
Let us consider an illustration. Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever but rebellious student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. Implying that the teacher is not capable, this rebel insists that he knows a much better way to solve the problem. Some students think that he is right, and they also become rebellious. What should the teacher do? If he throws the rebels out of the class, what will be the effect on the other students? Will they not believe that their fellow student and those who joined him are right? All the other students in the class might lose respect for the teacher, thinking that he is afraid of being proved wrong. But suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem.
Jehovah has done something similar to what the teacher does. Remember that the rebels in Eden were not the only ones involved. Millions of angels were watching. (Job 38:7; Daniel 7:10) How Jehovah handled the rebellion would greatly affect all those angels and eventually all intelligent creation. So, what has Jehovah done? He has allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan’s guidance
Why, though, has Jehovah allowed suffering to go on for so long? And why does he not prevent bad things from happening? Well, consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do. First, he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case. Second, the teacher would not help the rebel to make his case. Similarly, consider two things that Jehovah has determined not to do. First, he has not stopped Satan and those who side with him from trying to prove that they are right. Allowing time to pass has thus been necessary. In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government. Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, crime, and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure.
Second, Jehovah has not helped Satan to rule this world. If God were to prevent horrible crimes, for instance, would he not, in effect, be supporting the case of the rebels? Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results? If Jehovah were to act in that way, he would become party to a lie. However, “it is impossible for God to lie.”—Hebrews 6:18.
What, though, about all the harm that has been done during the long rebellion against God? We do well to remember that Jehovah is almighty. Therefore, he can and will undo the effects of mankind’s suffering. As we have already learned, the ruining of our planet will be undone by the turning of the earth into Paradise. The effects of sin will be removed through faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, and the effects of death will be reversed by means of the resurrection. God will thus use Jesus “to break up the works of the Devil.” (1 John 3:8) Jehovah will bring all of this about at just the right time. We can be glad that he has not acted sooner, for his patience has given us the opportunity to learn the truth and to serve him. (2 Peter 3:9, 10) Meanwhile, God has been actively seeking sincere worshipers and helping them to endure any suffering that may come upon them in this troubled world.—John 4:23; 1 Corinthians 10:13.
Posts: 148 | Registered: Nov 2007
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In case anyone's wondering if the Bible really does teach that Satan currently rules this world:
(1 John 5:19) We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.
Luke 4:5 -7
5 So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; 6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it . 7 You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me
John 12:30,31
30 In answer Jesus said: “This voice has occurred, not for my sake, but for YOUR sakes. 31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
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The question is ; who is the true God who created everything? God who created us, who created heavens and earth, deserves to be worshipped and obeyed. Is he Jesus Christ, but Jesus himself has never said that he is a God. The only one who has claimed that he is the true God. is God or Allah in the Holy Bible and the Quran. Now is it fair to thank and worship another one instead?
Posts: 130 | From: foggy bottom | Registered: Apr 2007
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Anyway- Seriously, why are people still arguing about evil. God created it, I don't understand how that can be a disagreement. If God created a perfect world, without evil, then there would be no evil, UNLESS he done something wrong. If he done something wrong, then he is not perfect, and not omnipotent. Like I said above, if something all white, creates something all white, then it is illogical to think something black can come from it. God is the creator, yes, and everything is the creation. Fine- but the creation cannot do anything unless the creator has given it the tools to do so. We can go back to a robot example- if I program a robot, it can only do what I programmed it to do, unless I made a mistake somewhere.
God is the most evil character in the bible. He kills innocent people all the time. (“And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30) Etc)
If I missed this above, I'm sorry- but you still have not given me a good reason why God should kill children (and babies, and animals). He does it by a number of means, floods, bears, rocks, etc. Even if you can find me a logical reason why they had to die, then please find me a logical reason why they had to die like that? God is omnipotent, all powerful (that's if we are still using the dictionary for that definition). Being all-powerful means he would have had unlimited other options. He decided on murder. The bible doesn't give godly wisdom, it is just a book of its time, written by men- if god would really resort to such human characteristics, then he really isn’t worth worshipping.
Those verses in the Bible claiming that God kills the innocents for other's sins,those verses are fake.
Posts: 130 | From: foggy bottom | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Apart form WK saying she would forcibly take away everyones free will and change things for them irrespective. When humans do this they are termed despots /tyrants/dictators and if God forced people to do what he wants today I'm sure you and WK would be just as vocal against it as you she is now claiming she would have been for it .
You are right- because drowning people with a worldwide flood ensures their freewill is in tacked - Hey they can choose to drown easily, or gasping for breath. Seriously, if god can't come up with someway to do it without murder, he can't be omnipotent, or he is just plain evil.
quote:Those verses in the Bible claiming that God kills the innocents for other's sins,those verses are fake.
Riiight, the hundreds of evil bible quotes I have, are all fake, and all the happy good bits, that don't contradict each other, are all the real bits.
Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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I said this: ''What understanding did or could Adam have had of death to make him see death as a not so unreasonable approach to running his affairs.''
then Kalos offered: ''He ahd been cretaed - he realised surely when life was breathed in to him that he had not existed before..death = non existence.''
..and you think that answer is good enough to stifle debate? I'm not talking about some metaphysical concept Kalos. All I want to know is, on that point, how could Adam know what it was he was getting himself and Eve into since there was no death in the world; or so the story goes. What do you think God should have told him in advance(?) about the path he would take. Now I'm aware He told Adam that in the day you eat a particular tree you will die, but if Adam didn't know death and what it looked like and all the emotions and heartbreak that will accompany such calamity then how could Adam not 'sin.'?
Weirdkitty's point earlier in this discussion about this tree of life business has been duly noted because anyone who reads this story, even for the first time, will immediately pick up on why didn't Adam eat of the tree of life before sampling this 'good and evil' tree.
''Apart form WK saying she would forcibly take away everyones free will and change things for them irrespective. When humans do this they are termed despots /tyrants/dictators and if God forced people to do what he wants today I'm sure you and WK would be just as vocal against it as you she is now claiming she would have been for it.''
You are overlooking the fact we are still talking about the creator not what some humans do to each other.
This free will concept is bogus anyway. Every human on this planet has been endowed with some kind of disposition. The fact that you and others have seen fit to apologize for human behavior in the sense you can call it free will says nothing at all about this dispositon in the beginning. If God is the creator Kalos, wherein lies your free will? You have none, it's God's will.
''Humans are made in God's image not the other way around - of course we only imperfectly display these qualities since mans deflection.''
So you do agree with me God isn't perfect? Or is this some more of that well he can be perfect if he wants.
''Let us consider an illustration. Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever but rebellious student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. Implying that the teacher is not capable, this rebel insists that he knows a much better way to solve the problem. Some students think that he is right, and they also become rebellious. What should the teacher do? If he throws the rebels out of the class, what will be the effect on the other students? Will they not believe that their fellow student and those who joined him are right? All the other students in the class might lose respect for the teacher, thinking that he is afraid of being proved wrong. But suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem.''
That entire paragraph reduces God to nothing. And it isn't surprising you didn't pick up on it. Then again after you've relegated God to a sometimey position several times already I guess I can see where you're coming from. Looks like you're leaving yourself more room to maneuver.
''Remember that the rebels in Eden were not the only ones involved.''
Satan's buddies were in the garden too! I thought it was just him. What gives here.
''Millions of angels were watching. (Job 38:7; Daniel 7:10) How Jehovah handled the rebellion would greatly affect all those angels and eventually all intelligent creation.''
So then all those angels had created dispositions too long before Adam; otherwise how to explain dissension in the ranks. Are you sure you want to continue?
''God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan’s guidance.''
So here you are saying God decided that he couldn't do anything about what humans did after the ''the fall''.
Human rule has now been shown to be a failure.''
Unless Satan created the human species then who else is to blame for this predicament humans are in?
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
You have a good argument weirdkitty. I see your point. The first thing to decide is whether there is God or not. As an atheist, you have decided that there is no God. I would like to present this thought or idea to you.
I believe that God is bigger than religion. That man cannot comprehend God so religion brings it down to a simple level.
Think about this: Matter can neither be created or destroyed, it just changes its form. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it just changes its expression. We are matter and energy. Our flesh (the matter) turns back to dust. What happens to our spirit (the energy)?
You could use different terminology for the spirit, ie. vital force, electrical impulses, innate intelligence. What ever you want to call it, I am talking about the energy that animates our physical bodies. This has to live on and this is what I believe is our true self and is in the image of God.
Simply put, God is light, energy, life. The opposite of God is dark, or sin, death. So we are looking at the positive vs the negative.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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- Hey they can choose to drown easily, or gasping for breath. Seriously, if god can't come up with someway to do it without murder, he can't be omnipotent, or he is just plain evil.
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