quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ BS to you too. Ancient Egyptians generally looked like modern day Ethiopians
And I thought by now you would know that modern day Ethiopians vary in looks from the typical narrow features to broad features.
quote:Nubians looked like the stereotypical Black person. But thats the point - its a stereotype and not what Black people really look like - great diversity there.
'Nubians' are not a single group but consist of many ethnic entities that said, you can't stereotype any look about them!
correction -you mean different tribal groups not not ethnic, except the medja.the ones in the nile valley and those called hill nubians were one group but they were not called nubians in the past.the difference between a alwan and a kushite was tribal not ethnic.just like a bambara and mandinka.
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quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: Wow one thing just stuck me...LOL in the picture of the "Procession of the Kushites" from the tomb of Huy....The fourth Nubian from t the left doesn't have the "stereotypical features the Eurocentrics say the Nubians were depicted if im not mistaken the Artist shows that particular man with a pointy nose and little prothagism and with his brown skin he could easily pass as Egyptian.....This proves the closest ethnic group to Egyptians both modern and Ancient were the Nubians!!!
I wonder how that fourth man would look if he was facing us.REMEMBER EGYPTIAN ART IS BASCIALLY idealized.kushite art is less so and since we have descriptions of kushites and how they look i would bet that fourth kushite nose is really flat,but a flat nose from the side could look pointy from a side view even if it is not.
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I have to agree with alTakruri, Will Smith has the box office power to pull of such a film. He is the golden boy of the moment.
I see passions are high concerning who, what complextion, should really play the part of Taharqa. Like I have stated before with the state of the art makeup it should not pose a problem for Will Smith, they could make him black as night if that is what they feel will help protray Taharaqa as more historically accurate.
What to my mind is way more important, is who would be the Egyptologist & historical consultant on the film . The person in this postion will help shape the director point of view, as well as the script writng, along with a hoast of other important elements, that will bring a vision to the screen of this great period in history !
I hope Will Smith is fully invested as the producer, to surround himself with the very best people, that can help bring his vision to the screen ; as well as finally portraying black people of Africa as complex human beings full of majesty as well as pathos.
I personally would like to see someone such as Molefi Kete Asante, Basil Davidson, Bruce Williams, or Theophile Obenga as the historical consultant. Posts: 135 | From: Bay Area | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Nebsen: I have to agree with alTakruri, Will Smith has the box office power to pull of such a film. He is the golden boy of the moment.
I see passions are high concerning who, what complextion, should really play the part of Taharqa. Like I have stated before with the state of the art makeup it should not pose a problem for Will Smith, they could make him black as night if that is what they feel will help protray Taharaqa as more historically accurate.
What to my mind is way more important, is who would be the Egyptologist & historical consultant on the film . The person in this postion will help shape the director point of view, as well as the script writng, along with a hoast of other important elements, that will bring a vision to the screen of this great period in history !
I hope Will Smith is fully invested as the producer, to surround himself with the very best people, that can help bring his vision to the screen ; as well as finally portraying black people of Africa as complex human beings full of majesty as well as pathos.
I personally would like to see someone such as Molefi Kete Asante, Basil Davidson, Bruce Williams, or Theophile Obenga as the historical consultant.
posted
I wonder why Will didn't want to play Narmer/Menes? Why does he have to be the last pharaoh instead? This is something easily given to Will, since they(Euros) already consider Kush to be an indigenous black/African nation. If they were ready to admit Ancient Egypt's Africanism, they should have Will play Narmer to show the beginning of Ancient Egypt. This is also peculiar since they say this has been Will's dream for a long time to play Taharqa, but why Taharqa? Is it because this is the only Egyptian dynasty he knows to be black/African? I think so. Like I said before, pertaining towards the movie, I just hope they don't have Arabs playing the Egyptians.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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I've been following pieces of this thread; Will Smith's hue is not an anomaly in the African variation. Reading about it apparently does no good, as many non-Africans tend to get rigid idealized, incomplete perceptions and false impressions of continental Africa born out of social conditioning from their media; here's an idea: stepping foot in Africa would not hamper the advancement of one's knowledge about the peoples there. Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Agreed. Without his money Will Smith will fit in perfectly with many of the brothers I see in the streets of Philly. Many of them see no issues with their variation in hue. They all consider themselves . . . black. Seems the only reason we have an issue with Will and his hue is because he is popular and has money.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Yep it would be good to see a film that is at least somewhat accurate about Egypt. But I am not holding my breath.
Either way, Will Smith is still no doubt a very light black man looking to play the figure of someone very dark. In fact I would say he is lighter than the average modern Upper Egyptian or Nubian, let alone ancient Egyptian. But be that as it may, this doesn't mean he shouldn't make the movie or even star in it. As an actor I am sure he could pull it off and I am sure that he and everyone else involved are aware of the fact that Sudanese are relatively very dark.
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): Punt is where the Dynastic people claim to come from
^Meant to post a different photo I can't find - the above are ancient Egyptians and NOT Puntites.
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: Wow one thing just stuck me...LOL in the picture of the "Procession of the Kushites" from the tomb of Huy....The fourth Nubian from t the left doesn't have the "stereotypical features the Eurocentrics say the Nubians were depicted if im not mistaken the Artist shows that particular man with a pointy nose and little prothagism
Correct Jari.
In this depiction, the black skinned Egyptians (in white) and Southerners (in leopard spots) both have much less prognathism than some of their lighter skinned counterparts
Like other Africans to the South, Egyptians portrayed Puntites
(who were to the far South) in black, dark brown, red brown and even light/red- brown. There are pictures lighter than that even without the bad tint.
^Notice these Southerners that happen to be from the same place (Punt) Egyptians claim as their ancestral homeland wear white just like Egyptians.
Most Southerners wore spots, while Egyptians are in white. No matter what, Egyptians always seem to dress more like so-called 'Nubians' than anyone else (and they've even called upon them to save them from the 'dreaded Asiatic' rule). "Nubian" comes from a word that refers to gold and to a gold producing city of upper ancient Egypt anyway.
Again, a demonstration:
Now for Nehesy and Rmt (Egyptians) side by side in the top row of the same depiction:
posted
Agree with Ausarian and Nebsen's above posts.
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:Umm, ok. So is this to correlate Will Smith to the AE and Snipes to the Kushites? If not, I'll take it as a random example of yours to support your point, which is trivial.
An example of how I meant it from the beginning Will Smith is a lighter brown than most depictions of the Nubians, whereas most depictions of Egyptians show a more brown-reddish hue, like Will, both Ancient Egyptians/Nubians are still African 100%.
@ Knowledge & @ Sundiata just so ya know: My point in posting the art as I did was to enphasize that the black/brown divisions were overrated, and that it therefore doesn't matter that Will is playing.
There are for sure people his color from Nigeria to Sudan and the Horn, and in Central Africa. Just as there are people Djimon Honsou's color in the back streets of Iraq.
Knowledge, the picture you posted, which is of [ulr=http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gJDgFvcO9asN/340x.jpg]Paul Kagame[/url], is of a Central African.
The psychological skin-color apartheid-concept ideology nonchalantly propogated by Eurocentrism and those who passively accept it has no basis in either Kemetian iconography or literature or history.
(^Condensations - in each row, the first character is Egyptian, third is labeled Southerner)
posted
DOUG, just on observation, I noticed that the images of WILL, which you have chosen, tend to be very light. I guess this was done to support your stance on him being too light? Well, how about these pictures??
quote:Originally posted by SEEKING: DOUG, just on observation, I noticed that the images of WILL, which you have chosen, tend to be very light. I guess this was done to support your stance on him being too light? Well, how about these pictures??
niceeeee..... Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Come on guys while the Debate is Entertaining lets just conclude that Will Smith IS much Lighter Skinned than how most people including me would picture an ancient Kushite and would fit an Egytian better. The Egyptians made it VERY clear of the diversity of ancient African populations which they included themselves apart of. The Egyptians also made it very CLEAR that the Average Kushite was darker than the Average Egyptian....Does this mean Will would'nt fit the role of Taraqo....NO.
Even in the picture you posted Knowldege with Will and Dijimon Hosuen at the Bottom...BOTH Actors match the Skin color of the Kushites.
The real question is Who will play the Queen of Taraqo...MMMMM????????????
I PRAY its Nia Long or BETTER YET Gabrielle Union... Posts: 8808 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Black Africans come in VARIOUS shades of brown and that is the fact and nobody denies it. The point is again that Sudanese are among the DARKEST of Africans and therefore Will Smith is not necessarily the MOST REPRESENTATIVE of what an ancient Kushite would have looked like. For that matter he isn't REPRESENTATIVE of what all African Americans look like either. This goes to show that the black/brown dichotomy of Africa and the art of ancient Egypt is a reflection of the reality of the diversity of complexion among black populations, which goes back many thousands of years. Therefore, given that diversity and given that all Africans do not look the same, you cannot just claim that because an African is black that they are a perfect example of all African features because they aren't. But movies are about acting and of course even if Will Smith plays the role it is his acting that will make or break the movie more so than skin color. And like I said, such critiques of accuracy in historical flicks is nothing new. For example, why do so many movies on ancient Greece and Rome feature actors with distinct Scottish, Irish and British accents? Certainly the ancient Romans and Greeks were not Celtic.
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: osirion wrote:
--------------------------- Indigenous people of Egypt? And who are these people that are pure indigenous people of Egypt? ---------------------------
You can injece "pure" as a strawman all that you want. I'll leave that for the posters that match your lower level of intellect.
>>>
The indigenous people of Egypt and the Sudanaese are who the ancient egyptians looked like. Not the Ethiopians that apparently you like to use to pleasure yourself.
-------------------------- Like Will Smith - idiot. --------------------------
I'm noticing that alot of these race loons tend to be these horny pathetic individuals who use "mixed" to further enhance their how shall we say it? Their self-pleasuring pleasure.
>>>
#1:
I did not inject pure it is implied by your statement. How can indigenous people not be pure indigenous people? I qualified your implication and nothing else.
-- What is stereotypical about Will Smith?
His phenotype is more typical of what is seen to be that of Black people. This is a stereotype since Blacks have very diverse features. To be specific, he has a low nasal root and a wide nasal index with tight curly hair.
No such thing as race. This forum is a place for people to give their opinions and in my opinion the AEs look most similar to Ethiopians of modern day and not the Arab influenced people that live in Egypt today. However, I have been to Egypt and there are certainly a good deal of people there that appear indigenous and do look like AEs; however, Ethiopians have experienced less foreign intrusion than Egypt and thus make a better example of what the Ancient East Africans looked like originally. However, I think your point about the Sudanese is exemplarary and I agree. Sudan is a better place to find people that are most similar to AE. I supposed I have never been to Sudan so I usually don't think of it. Also, Upper Egypt has a lot of poor farmers that still appear to look like AEs but then they also look alot like Ethiopians/Somalians as well. Not sure if the diet and climate is much different between AE and Ethiopia and so I expect the people to look the same. I will look further into the climatic and dietary differences between the people but I would imagine that they are roughly the same.
BTW - of course you are right but then I am not aware of the so called indigenous people of Egypt that have not mixed with non-Egyptians. How can we possibly know who is actually indigenous? I am just going based on statistical probability of mixture over time. So with that said - Sudan seems to be a more realistic place to look.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): Agree with Ausarian and Nebsen's above posts.
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:Umm, ok. So is this to correlate Will Smith to the AE and Snipes to the Kushites? If not, I'll take it as a random example of yours to support your point, which is trivial.
An example of how I meant it from the beginning Will Smith is a lighter brown than most depictions of the Nubians, whereas most depictions of Egyptians show a more brown-reddish hue, like Will, both Ancient Egyptians/Nubians are still African 100%.
@ Knowledge & @ Sundiata just so ya know: My point in posting the art as I did was to enphasize that the black/brown divisions were overrated, and that it therefore doesn't matter that Will is playing.
There are for sure people his color from Nigeria to Sudan and the Horn, and in Central Africa. Just as there are people Djimon Honsou's color in the back streets of Iraq.
Knowledge, the picture you posted, which is of [ulr=http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gJDgFvcO9asN/340x.jpg]Paul Kagame[/url], is of a Central African.
The psychological skin-color apartheid-concept ideology nonchalantly propogated by Eurocentrism and those who passively accept it has no basis in either Kemetian iconography or literature or history.
(^Condensations - in each row, the first character is Egyptian, third is labeled Southerner)
Actual photo from the walls:
Four "Rmt" ['Egyptians']
Four "Nhsy" [Southerners]
Thank you! Good post. Ausarian brought the point home as well that even as an outside observer, it is painfully obvious to me the misconceptions non-Africans hold about the continent while also never visiting there. Hence, some of the random picture spam that is overtly out of context. Such has more to do with the innate human disposition to discern and place exaggerated emphasis on nuance. Such simplifies what is otherwise more complex than they seek to approach it (there is much overlap as far as skin complexion and other features in NEAfrica). Simply, stating that a Black man (WIll Smith) isn't Black enough to play another Black man is almost a form of self-hating ignorance based on the propagation of Eurocentric conquer and divide strategy. They are unwillful puppets who play right into opposing hands.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Ignoring the ignorant and idiotic distractors of this thread...
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: Yea that's why I asked, aren't the studies on East Africans only done on certain tribes in certain countries I.e, not all East Africans are 40% West Asian, Just like not all African Americans are 30% European.
First of all, those aren't "tribes" but ethnicities. Second, the Eurocentrics duplicitly only use the Abyssinian sample to represent the entire country of Ethiopia but are not crazy enough to say it reflects all of East Africa. It is actually Dienekes and his slave-boy Debunked that make this claim! LOL
quote:Originally posted by osirion: As for Ethiopians - whenever I see Egyptian Art I am reminded of them.
Don't know if I have seen depictions of Egyptians with such curves though:
I have!-- seen my share of ancient Egyptian women with curves!
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Smith is the box office draw card. Let the movie succeed. Then see what else it spinsoff. It's not a documentary. More power to Will Smith!
As I said before, I have nothing against Will Smith. He's a great actor. I didn't like his last movie, but I'm hoping his future movies will be alot better. But again, I'm glad Hollyweird actually picked a black actor at all and not some 'of-black' actor like Vin Diesel or the Rock.
Posts: 26348 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kenndo: correction -you mean different tribal groups not not ethnic, except the medja. The ones in the nile valley and those called hill nubians were one group but they were not called nubians in the past. The difference between a alwan and a kushite was tribal not ethnic. just like a bambara and mandinka.
Wait, hold up! To my knowledge the groups that the Egyptians described were ethnic. Tribal groups are divisions within each ethnicity. Of course Hill Nubians and Nile Nubians were only grouped together in recent times but such a grouping was based purely on linguistic reasons. The Nile Nubians and Hill Nubians are themselves comprised of different ethnic groups but all are classified together as 'Nubian' linguistically and culturally. The Bambara and the Mandinka are also not tribes but ethnic groups that comprise the larger Mande cultural group.
I think you are confusing the larger cultural group or family with 'ethnicity' and the actual ethnicity with 'tribe'.
Posts: 26348 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Paul Kagame, Central African, lighter than many North Africans even in Tunisia but certainly not an outlier in sub-Saharan Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: Come on guys while the Debate is Entertaining lets just conclude that Will Smith IS much Lighter Skinned than how most people including me would picture an ancient Kushite and would fit an Egytian better.
^^Better stated.
Just like how it was written that ancient Northern Indians would fit better in the Northern part of the Nile Valley than in the Southern part.
quote:The Egyptians made it VERY clear of the diversity of ancient African populations which they included themselves apart of.
Yes, even though they were fierce rivals, they even vied for a Southern ruler to 'save them from the Asiatics'. One time Kushites even defeated Kemet and decided to let it be. (I'll link later).
quote:The Egyptians also made it very CLEAR that the Average Kushite was darker than the Average Egyptian....Does this mean Will would'nt fit the role of Taraqo....NO.
I don't know about 'very CLEAR' (pending textual evidence) but I will buy the "average" part and that last part.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Getting back to the topic, I believe it was neo*geo that started a thread before on which actors would be good picks for a movie about Kush and Egypt.
I recall two more good actors that could possibly suit the part:
Taye Diggs
Omar Epps Posts: 26348 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Such has more to do with the innate human disposition to discern and place exaggerated emphasis on nuance. Such simplifies what is otherwise more complex than they seek to approach it (there is much overlap as far as skin complexion and other features in NEAfrica). Simply, stating that a Black man (WIll Smith) isn't Black enough to play another Black man is almost a form of self-hating ignorance based on the propagation of Eurocentric conquer and divide strategy. They are unwillful puppets who play right into opposing hands.
Truth, just a common human tendancy.
The colorism is totally and completely unnecissary.
I could understand if we were talking about the Greek Historians and their perspective on different folks though.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Are you just posting pics, do you know anything about acting and casting. Casting is very important part in making a movie sucessful. Stop posting pics of black people so you can pretend to side with Blacks. Diggs and Epps can't act to save their lives!! Taharqa is a RULER not another cute face. This is very important movie. Yes Will is good casting to play the General, so can Denzel, Sam Jackson (but too old-he carried Pulp Fiction not Travolta), Nigerian English dude etc.
This is someone you must love, fear and worship
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Getting back to the topic, I believe it was neo*geo that started a thread before on which actors would be good picks for a movie about Kush and Egypt.
I recall two more good actors that could possibly suit the part:
Taye Diggs
Omar Epps
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Reading some of the lines in this thread has convinced me that Eurocentric brainwashing is *still* truely a force to be reckoned with!
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Brainwashing like your belief in six millon Ashkenazi (your "Semitic" people LOL) holocaust? LOL
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by kenndo: correction -you mean different tribal groups not not ethnic, except the medja. The ones in the nile valley and those called hill nubians were one group but they were not called nubians in the past. The difference between a alwan and a kushite was tribal not ethnic. just like a bambara and mandinka.
Wait, hold up! To my knowledge the groups that the Egyptians described were ethnic. Tribal groups are divisions within each ethnicity. Of course Hill Nubians and Nile Nubians were only grouped together in recent times but such a grouping was based purely on linguistic reasons. The Nile Nubians and Hill Nubians are themselves comprised of different ethnic groups but all are classified together as 'Nubian' linguistically and culturally. The Bambara and the Mandinka are also not tribes but ethnic groups that comprise the larger Mande cultural group.
I think you are confusing the larger cultural group or family with 'ethnicity' and the actual ethnicity with 'tribe'.
I HAVE TO DISAGREE with you on that.MANDE IS A ETHNIC group with sub-groups like the bambara or mandinka.the cultures are closely related.
I AGREE WITH YOU that modern nubians did not call themselves nubians. scholars do not know yet the real name the kushites and noba for example were called but egyptians had names for them and the egyptians were really describing sub-groups or tribes not ethnic groups.Do not forget that the culture of the noba and kushites were basically the same.
The groups you are talking about that may be different ethnically were most likely the groups next to egypt and the medja.BUT ON AVERAGE THE GROUPS THAT LIVE NEXT TO EGYPT ON AVERAGE LOOK MORE LIKE EGYPTIANS BUT THEIR CULTURE WAS MORE RELATED TO THE KUSHITES AND EVEN MORE SO WHEN KUSH TOOK OVER THE NORTH.YOU COULD SAY THEY BECAME MORE KUSHIZED.
I believe that the population however belong to one ethnic group with sub-groups. THE MEDJA YOU COULD SAFELY say were a different ethnic group of what scholars today call nubian.african scholars do believe that noba group thta took over kush were basically the same ethnic group the kushites belong to but we do not know the real name of that ethnic group. the tribal or sub-groups of that ethnic group were kushites,alwans,certain groups in the nuba hills and other areas.i scholar i spoke to made it clear to me they were the same ethnic group. even if they were different from the start in the end they basically became the same.
Just like the greeks and macedonians.scholars go back in forth and do not give a clear answer if the greeks were different than the macedonians.but in the end the macedonians did in fact became greek.
I believe that the THE KUSHITES and hill nubians and the noba did come from the same places and had basically the same culture from the start.In fact SOME noba and kushites intermarried.other kushites died off or just left the nile valley.KUSHITE NUBIANS WERE THE SAME ETHNIC GROUP AS THE NOBA AND HILL NUBIANS.THE REAL NAME OF THE ETHNIC GROUP IS UNKNOWN BUT THE MEDJA NUBIANS WERE A DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUP.
HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Mandé is an ethnic group of West Africa. Speakers of the Mande languages are found in Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Senegal, Mali, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Burkina Faso, Côte d'Ivoire and Northern Ghana. Linguistically, the Mande languages belong to a divergent branch of the Niger-Congo family. The Mande peoples are credited with the founding of the largest ancient West African empires. The Mandé are closely related to both West Atlantic-speakers (such as the Fulani and Wolof) and Nilo-Saharan -speakers (such as the Songhay), in terms of culture and ethnicity.
Some sources say that the Mandé are defined by culture and language rather than by ethnicity, since many different ethnic groups have adopted Mandé languages, names, and traditions.
NOW THE LATTER I DISAGREE WITH.THE FIRST SOURCE I AGREE.
THE MANDE IS A ETHNIC GROUP.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
For all those that want to support Will Smith in his role as Taharqa, he has a great website, so all can log on & leave him messages, & maybe tell him about Egyptsearch www.WillSmith.com
In the news on his site they tell us about his new role in "The Last Pharaoh" Posts: 135 | From: Bay Area | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Culture and language are two factors that delineate an ethnic group.
I know, but what I refer to are the larger linguisto-cultural groups that consist of individual ethnic groups. Like for example, the Mande peoples consisting of ethnies like the Malinka and Bambara or (modern) Nubian peoples consisting of the Darba from the hills region and the Mahas from the Nile valley. A European example would be the Germanic peoples who consist of the Deutch (Germans proper) as well as the Danes.
A 'tribe' is a small socio-political division usually within a single ethnicity.
Posts: 26348 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
yeah,i get your point to a point,but for modern ethnic nubians that the the larger linguisto-cultural group would be sudanic .
Same for the ancient nubians except the medja .
noba and kushites are basically one and belong to the same ethnic group.modern scholars called them nubians.egyptians had there own ethnic name for them.The NAME OF THESE sub-groups OF nubians for example were kushites and the noba and sub-groups in others areas in the sudan.sub-group would be a better term than tribe but both tribe and sub-group would be the same thing but i prefer the term sub-group.
For the mande the larger lingusto group would be mande.so it seems that it serves as both.it's a ethnic group with sub-groups within and a branch of niger-congo.every source i seem to read would say that mande is a ethnic group with subgroups within.
here is an example of the mande.notice below they use the term sub-group instead of tribe but we know it's the same thing.
------------------------ quote-
The group was first recognized in 1854 by Koelle in his Polyglotta Africana. He mentioned 13 languages under the heading North-Western High-Sudan Family, or Mandéga Family of Languages. In 1901 Maurice Delafosse made a distinction of two groups in his Essai de manuel pratique de la langue mandé ou mandingue. He speaks of a northern group mandé-tan and a southern group mandé-fu. This distinction was basically done only because the languages in the north use the expression tan for ten whereas the southern group use fu. In 1924 L. Tauxier notes that this distinction is not well founded and there is at least a third subgroup he called mandé-bu. It is not until 1950 when A. Prost supports this view and gives further details. In 1958 Welmers publishes an article The Mande Languages where he divides the languages into three subgroups - North-West, South and East. His conclusion was based on lexicostatistic research. Greenberg follows this distinction 1963 in The Languages of Africa. Long (1971) and G. Galtier (1980) follow the distinction into three groups but with notable differences. -------------------------------------- peace .
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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But I agree as well that Will and other African Americans should also be looking at portraying other Egyptian dynasties before the 25th as well.
posted
All in all i would say that will CAN make or Break a movie. BUT he doesnt have to STAR in it. He could have directed it. I would also have been nice if it was spoken in a Nubian language - Think Apocalypto which was a GREAT movie that had how many super famous stars? ZERO!
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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A classic example of gene replacement are Black Americans (not represented in the tree of Fig. 3, which includes only aboriginal people), who notoriously have a lighter skin color than Black Africans, their ancestors. This is especially true in the northern States. Genetic analysis shows that African Americans have on average 30% of their gene pool from European (White American) genes (28). This partial replacement took place over about 300 years of contact, and it is calculated that, if it was constant in time, there must have been about 3% of mixed unions per generation. Laws assured that the child of mixed parentage would be considered Black. Only individuals with a very low proportion of Black ancestry (or of skin color) would be able to “pass” as White. With gene flow continuing at that same rate, only about 30% of the original gene constitution would remain on average after 1,000 years since the beginning, and about 9% after 2,000 years (1).
And this helps you out how? This is the same person that many of the keyboard faux scholars have claimed to be biased and racist in his writings and studies.
See people this is what happens when you're not really a scholar, but you try to play one on the EgyptSearch. LOL
You wind up arguing by the so called authorities. They don't even use your own commonsense. They have to wait for the white man to tell them something and unless it is a threat to Ancient Egypt (which they need for their self-esteem), then whatever white boy roy says is true.
Does anybody believe that white boys are going to admit that African Americans have ancesters from North Africa and the rest of Africa?
Of course not North Africans are supposed to be white. Ironically if you look at history it didn't do the North Africans any good since a great many of them died in conflicts with the Europeans.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: Well it is a matter of precision; whatever the study might be, that percentage must obvioulsy only reflect the sample size of the tested parties.
As for Eurocentrists making a mole hill out of misreading some study, they do so, because they know next to nothing about how population genetics studies work, and never set foot in Ethiopia.
The fake scholars show their minimal intellect when they quote from them.
They've been wailing and moaning about Euros stealing E3B, renaming different genes, using bogus skull and bone measurments, using the word Afro-Asiatic (shortening Africa so that it is not even prominent in the word) when only 1 language is Asiatic, using bogus pseudoscientific terms such as c-soid, m-loid, n-groid.
And this foolish armchair scholar Knowledgeiskey718 thinks that he can just post a link to one of the very scientist that many of these same clowns claim is racist and we're all just supposed to buy it.
With this type of thinking its no wonder these people are fake armchair scholars.
These people could have ordered blood samples from who knows what 3rd party? Who knows if they are even conducting actual tests? They could just be printing out results from there printer for all anyone knows.
Its not like someone can put them in jail for dishonesty since no one is physically getting hurt.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
The point I was making in response to the last lines of the post immediately above my reply is that Mande is not an ethnic group whereas say Soninke Malinke etc., subsets of Mande speakers, are ethnic groups because though each one is a Mande language the cultures differ.
I don't agree with the definition of tribe you supplied. Tribe can refer to a large entity that is equivalent to a nation. The Fulani are a prime example of that as are the Zulu and Jews.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Culture and language are two factors that delineate an ethnic group.
I know, but what I refer to are the larger linguisto-cultural groups that consist of individual ethnic groups. Like for example, the Mande peoples consisting of ethnies like the Malinka and Bambara or (modern) Nubian peoples consisting of the Darba from the hills region and the Mahas from the Nile valley. A European example would be the Germanic peoples who consist of the Deutch (Germans proper) as well as the Danes.
A 'tribe' is a small socio-political division usually within a single ethnicity.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Explorateur wrote:
quote: Well it is a matter of precision; whatever the study might be, that percentage must obvioulsy only reflect the sample size of the tested parties.
As for Eurocentrists making a mole hill out of misreading some study, they do so, because they know next to nothing about how population genetics studies work, and never set foot in Ethiopia.
The fake scholars show their minimal intellect when they quote from them.
They've been wailing and moaning about Euros stealing E3B, renaming different genes, using bogus skull and bone measurments, using the word Afro-Asiatic (shortening Africa so that it is not even prominent in the word) when only 1 language is Asiatic, using bogus pseudoscientific terms such as c-soid, m-loid, n-groid.
And this foolish armchair scholar Knowledgeiskey718 thinks that he can just post a link to one of the very scientist that many of these same clowns claim is racist and we're all just supposed to buy it.
With this type of thinking its no wonder these people are fake armchair scholars.
These people could have ordered blood samples from who knows what 3rd party? Who knows if they are even conducting actual tests? They could just be printing out results from there printer for all anyone knows.
Its not like someone can put them in jail for dishonesty since no one is physically getting hurt.
Argyle funny, but how come you always respond to a question or anything for that matter, with your own question or opinion, instead of answer or a correction?
Do you have any idea of why Ethiopians and Somalis appear to lie inbetween West Africans and Non-Africans?
Meanwhile argyle you offer up absolutely nothing of relevance just your own insignificant opinion meanwhile, let's take a look at the 62% Ethiopian "Caucasian" claim as we can see below from Wilson Et al.
quote:"Notably, 62% of the Ethiopians fall in the first cluster, which encompasses the majority of the Jews, Norwegians and Armenians, indicating that placement of these individuals in a 'Black' cluster would be an inaccurate reflection of the genetic structure." -- Wilson et al. 2001
Now we can see below in a reply to Charlie Bass from Wilson et al. What he really meant with his above quote.
quote:Dear Mr. Rigaud,
Thank you for your email. I am interested to know more about your project. What are its aims? Where are you reading Anthropology? Who is supervising you?
The link you provided is broken, but I presume it related to Table 2 of my paper where the proportion of Ethiopian ancestry lying in cluster A is given as 62%.
I am sure that the origin of non-Africans in East Africa is part of the reason for this finding, but it is also likely that more recent (within the last 20,000 years) gene flow across the Bab el Mandeb will contribute to this situation. The degree to which the 'mixed' ancestry is due to recent vs ancient mixing/separation could be estimated with series of genealogical genetic systems such as the Y chromosome, but not with lots of unlinked loci each of which gives very little gene genealogical information. Unfortunately we are not at that stage yet and there are still a large number of unsolved multifurcations even in the Y tree which pertain directly to this question. And the Y is only one genetic locus. There are also hints from mtDNA of course. It should eventually be able to take the lineages that we see in E Africa and dissect out those that are due to what I am calling recent (back-)migration (as they would descend from lineages originating outside Africa), we could probably identify those that provide evidence that E Africa is the homeland of non-Africans (those which are the closest in the gene tree to the non-African lineages, closer than all the other African lineages, and perhaps not found outside E Africa, or at least with much lower diversity) and finally the aboriginal African lineages which are found across Africa. As E Africa may also be the place where our species arose, there may also be a fourth type of lineage which would also be more diverse in East Africa, the deepest lineages of all, the first branches in the gene tree. This is an idealised situation and not all gene trees would show it but given enough of them we should begin to pick out whether this scenario or another represents our history.
It is a great shame that the human genome diversity panel does not include any samples from the horn of Africa, as we would probably then have seen the same pattern in Noah Rosenberg's Science paper using Structure. There are a number of areas around the world in which admixture has occurred in pre-Colombian times between indigenous populations, eg Island South East Asia and Central Asia, the Malagasy etc. Then of course the colonial legacy has left millions of much more recently admixed populations in the Americas and all over. But the horn of Africa and around is unique in that non-Africans descend from populations in this area. This is what makes this particular case of admixture very interesting.
I certainly did not intend to give anyone the impression that Ethipians were 62% "Caucasian" or somehow 'not black'. The entire point of the paper is to show that labels such as Caucasian and black do not reflect the underlying genetics very well and it is the underlying genetic structure that matters for things like drug response and disease susceptibility.
I hope this clarifies things for you. Don't hesitate to get in touch if I can be of further assistance. All best wishes, Jim
Charles Rigaud wrote:
> Hello Dr. Wilson, my name is Charles Rigaud and I'm an > anthropology student. I have some questions pertaining > to one of your genetic studies, "Population genetic > structure of variable drug response"(Nature Genetics > 29, 265 - 269 (2001). Based on this chart published in > your study > http/img393.imageshack.us/img393/4908/ng761t27rx.gif , > were you giving readers the impression that Ethiopians > were 62% "Caucasian" or cluster with Caucasians[hence > not black]? Its well known from published studies that > non-Africans descend genetically from a subset of > Northeast Africans, could this be a reason for > Ethiopians having 62% of the cluster? I ask your > assistance and clarification on this issue. Thanks in > advance. > > > Best regards, > > > Charles Rigaud > > >
So basically as we already knew Ethiopians and Somalis lying inbetween West Africans and Non-Africans, it's NOT saying they're "Caucasian" but rather it's in reference to OOA in which all non-Africans descend from a small sub-set of East Africans. Because when we look at the Y and Mtdna of East Africans they have little to no West Asian uniparental haps, and this is how you genetically trace ancestry as noted below.
quote: The degree to which the 'mixed' ancestry is due to recent vs ancient mixing/separation could be estimated with series of genealogical genetic systems such as the Y chromosome, but not with lots of unlinked loci each of which gives very little gene genealogical information.--Wilson et al
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote: Do you have any idea of why Ethiopians and Somalis appear to lie inbetween West Africans and Non-Africans?
I don't give a damn about your race obsessed dichotomy of Africans. If you want to fantasize about "West Africans" and Ethiopians and Somalis that's your problem and a sad reflection about how your pathetic mind works.
People, ask yourself doesn't what he wrote remind you of all of the braindead dullards that you find on the amateur race loon sites? : )
Also, notice how people of Knowledgeiskey718's ilk act as Africa is only "West Africans" and Ethiopians and Somalis. No north Africans, no southern Africans. But again the boy gets his talking points from white scientists who want to claim 95% of Africa is theirs, so why expect better from this boy?
This guy seems to be sick in the head.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Actually, rather than pleading for sympathy from us you need to address what he posted. Seems to me the one making phony distinctions is you. Why are you calling out Southern Africans, Northern Africans or other Africans as distinct? Why are YOU bringing up East Africans and West Africans as distinct?
Again your are proving to be nothing but a troll and unable to address anything substantial as opposed to baiting and switching when confronted with the facts. Therefore, instead of addressing the facts you move the goalposts onto another topic.
The fact is that there is variation among black Africans and has ALWAYS been. It is not the AFRICANS fault that FOREIGNERS are the one who keep twisting this fact to suit their own agendas.
Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: Actually, rather than pleading for sympathy from us you need to address what he posted. Seems to me the one making phony distinctions is you. Why are you calling out Southern Africans, Northern Africans or other Africans as distinct? Why are YOU bringing up East Africans and West Africans as distinct?
Again your are proving to be nothing but a troll and unable to address anything substantial as opposed to baiting and switching when confronted with the facts. Therefore, instead of addressing the facts you move the goalposts onto another topic.
The fact is that there is variation among black Africans and has ALWAYS been. It is not the AFRICANS fault that FOREIGNERS are the one who keep twisting this fact to suit their own agendas.
Can anyone tell me what on earth this boy is talking about? Are you a man or a woman? It's about time someone says this. Your posts are like a woman who's reached that time of the month. LOL!
Look take this 5 and go to the corner store and by some Kotex so you'll calm down and stop hallucinating like a crack addict on 7th Ave.
Outside of stealing pictures from people on Flickr your posts have absolutely no value. Hell you even contradict yourself half the time when you do post those stolen pictures.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: The fact is that there is variation among black Africans and has ALWAYS been. It is not the AFRICANS fault that FOREIGNERS are the one who keep twisting this fact to suit their own agendas.
Folks do you believe this?
This supposedly grown man ass has been posting like a PMS female throughout this thread bitching and moaning about the skin complexions of other Africans incl. diaspora. So now he's trying to project his sickness onto someone else.
This boy has been hitting the pipe early this weekend. : )
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^ Indeed, gArgoyle is just a moronic troll who makes no contributions to this forum whatsoever and only insults or criticizes posters for some imagined transgression. Knowledge, just wasted his time responding to the fool when Rasol explained to him (chumped him) before that just because we cite a scholar whom we criticize does equate to hyporcisy. Scholarship is not a matter of a scholar being entirely right or entirely wrong. Just because Sforza was wrong on certain things does not mean he's wrong all the time. But the dumb gArgoyle can't get that into his damaged brain.
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: yeah, i get your point to a point, but for modern ethnic nubians that the larger linguisto-cultural group would be sudanic.
Well specifically, the Nubian languages make up Eastern Sudanic while other non-Nubian languages farther west from the Nuba Hills onward make up Western Sudanic. Both of which make up the Chari-Nile branch of Nilo-Saharan.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The point I was making in response to the last lines of the post immediately above my reply is that Mande is not an ethnic group whereas say Soninke Malinke etc., subsets of Mande speakers, are ethnic groups because though each one is a Mande language the cultures differ.
Which is what I said.
quote:I don't agree with the definition of tribe you supplied. Tribe can refer to a large entity that is equivalent to a nation. The Fulani are a prime example of that as are the Zulu and Jews.
Well wouldn't the larger socio-political divisions you just described be called 'nations' then?
Posts: 26348 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
right mande is not really a ethnic group,some mande however have more closely related cultures or basically the same cultures or civilization i think more so than other mande groups.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: I never said Will Smith was not black enough or "negro" enough to play Taharqa. I said the most likely reason for his lighter brown skin tone, is likely due to past admixture being that he is an African American, through 300 years, his ancestors might have mixed.
Are you saying that Africans do not have variations in skin complexions?
Is that what you are saying above?
Will Smith is an African American. Will Smith's ancestors come from Africa.
You seem to be saying that Will Smith's skin color does not come from Africa where his ancestors come from. Which anyone using logical reasoning, comes to the conclusion that you think Africans do not vary in skin color.
Again I repeat is that what you are saying?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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