quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The fact that they and especially high classed "Moors" - a name for the the Hassaniyya and Trarza in Mauritania and elsewhere- are today "a shade lighter" than Mande and other black Africans speaks to the number of white slaves they have been trading between Morocco and Mauritania and Senegal until recently. But, it certainly says nothing of what they looked like in the Almoravid 12th century and before.
This is where the term "Sudan" comes in because the "Sudan" were a shade darker. "Veiled People" bellow is a translation of Morabites, who were the Almoravids and were probably a shade lighter than the Sudan. The king of Zafun here was probably Muslim but the kingdom later had a pagan king in the era that Ibn Sa'id wrote. Zafun influence was so great that the Almoravids showed a great deal of respect for their king and relied on him "in all matters of government". This might show there was influence from this Zafun kingdom in Moorish Spain but according to the author of this book this incident probably occurred during the decline of the Almoravids. The Tuaregs and Morabites later became an important part of the Mali empire which was also Sudan very black
I posted this several times but I wanted to show the importance. Also note that there are still many things in this book have been mistranslated to fit colonial bias. All books are mistranslated to fit colonial bias
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
quote: Page 40 quote from Yaqut (Probably referring to the 12th century)
The king of Zafun is stronger than the veiled people of the Maghreb and more versed in the art of kingship. The veiled people acknowledge his superiority over them, obey him and resort to him in all important matters of government. One year the king, on his way to the pilgrimage, came to the Maghreb to pay a visit to the commander of the Muslims, the veiled king of the Maghreb, of the tribe of Lamtuna. The Commander of the Muslims met him on foot, wheras the king of Zafun did not dismount for him. He was tall, of deep black complexion and veiled
page 45 From Ibn Sa'id 13th century
In the same latitude is Zafun, which belongs to pagan Sudan and whose ruler enjoys a good reputation among (other) kings of the Sudan
page 98 by Ibn Khaldun is talking about how Takedda and other cities were subject to the ruler of Mali of the "Sudan"
quote: In the year 1353, in the days of sultan Abul 'Inan [of Morocco], I went to Biskara on royal business and there encountered the ambassador of the ruler of Takedda at the residence of Yusof al-Muzani, emir of Biskara. He told me about the prosperous state of this city and the continual passage of wayfares and said: "This year there passed through out city on the way to Mali a caravan of merchants from the east containing 12,000 camels." Another [informant] has told me that this is a yearly even. his country is subject to the sultan of Mali of the Sudan as is the case at present with the rest of the desert regions known as [the land of] the veiled people
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Lets go back to the post Bass put up to start this thread. Since Bass misrepresentd what the post actally said we have to conclude thst the question has not been answered. What Bass should have done is find several historians who have written extensively on the history of the Almmoreavids and use thaier information to try to establish their origins.
Hammer, Stop it...I mean seriously just GIVE IT UP ALREADY!! The Almoravids have already been confirmed to be of African origin. They came from the Area of Sensegal. you have been on here from 5-7 yrs. Not once have you ever done anything but troll and bait. I honestly think you have a mental problem, you must be a Meth addicted Dope-fiend. While all the eroll always realize they heve been defeated and retreat to other blogs after trhowing racial slanders in fits of rage, you have constantly been here ignoring the truth. Why should Bass waste his time...We could give you sources to fill the Library at Alexandria and your Redneck Dope-fiend ass would still say the Almoravids were not black. You say were are nuts and crazy so Why in the HELL ARE YOU HERE. Go...save yourself another 5 yrs of not being the One Trick Pony of Egyptsearch...
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Almoravids were mainly Aulamidden (Lamtuna) Tuareg now centered in Niger. Lower caste Tuareg smiths to whom much of the craftmanship of the Moors was probably due are of Nilo-Saharan origin related to Teda Tibbu-Krit or Ikaradan groups.
I think this might have allot to do with European and especially French colonialism. I think the smith skills would give people an edge and thus make them more dominant not the other way around. I've been talking about this skills thing over and over but I was hoping people would incorporate it into their overall view of this history. Notice that these Africans conquered northward into the Sahara this is not just fun facts but something to incorporate into the overall view of history. This directly relates to Moors in Spain because as dana marniche pointed out these people are "to whom much of the craftmanship of the Moors was probably due". This does give good evidence of the power and influence of these "Sudanese" (very black) people
"The question of the Iron Age in Africa" This article talks about blacksmiths (Because you mentioned craftsmen above I thought this was interesting)
According to Ibn Sa’id the authority of the sultan of Kanim extended over Kawar and Fazzan, and the Berbers were slaves of the king of Kanim. He confirmed that during periods of strength Kanim expanded northward into the Sahara, rather than southward
page 44
From Ibn Sa'id directly (13th century)
"This sultan has authority there over kingdoms such as those of the Tajuwa, Kawar, and Fazzan. God has assisted him and he has many descendants and armies. His clothes are brought to him from the capital of Tunish. He has scholars around him..."
posted
Jari, First, I did not say they were not of african origin. I outlined the proper way to answer the question. Based on what we have seen here in this thread nobody would know they were of african origin. Stop trying , making a point to sound uneducated. You can do better.
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Based on what we have seen here in this thread nobody would know they were of african origin.
The Tuaregs acted as the henchmen of "Sudanese" or "Sub-Saharan" (taken from thread title) African nations. With such a close relationship of course they were related. Isn't that obvious from the kind of relationship they had?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
The Almoravids were mainly Aulamidden (Lamtuna) Tuareg...
They would be reliant on "Sudanese" (very black Moors) for
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: smiths to whom much of the craftmanship of the Moors was probably due
quote:Originally posted by Hammered: Lets go back to the post Bass put up to start this thread. Since Bass misrepresentd what the post actally said we have to conclude thst the question has not been answered. What Bass should have done is find several historians who have written extensively on the history of the Almmoreavids and use thaier information to try to establish their origins.
First of all, the name of the dynasty is ALMORAVID. This was the name of the Moorish dynasty which ruled Iberia! Thus, the article Charles cited is more proof that Moors were far from 'non-black'.
Second, there is really no need to cite what historians say about the Almoravids' origins, since those of us educated posters here already know and have stated where the Almoravids originated, that is if you've been paying attention. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Hassaniyya claim descent from the Sulaym or Maqil the well known black Arabians who came across North Africa. The fact that they and especially high classed "Moors" - a name for the the Hassaniyya and Trarza in Mauritania and elsewhere- are today "a shade lighter" than Mande and other black Africans
This is what happened to those high ranking Moors
Morabite dynasty=Almoravids
“The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained” footnote at the bottom of page 72
quote: Respecting the Masufah, who were generally called el Takshif, that is, the scouts or couriers, and who appear to have occupied the whole road from Teghaza to Tomboktu, there is a passage in Ibn Khaldun (fol. 89) which, with a little abridgment, is worth transcribing.—" After the fall of the Morabite dynasty, the tribes of the Molaththemun returned to the desert, and now occupy the countries which they originally possessed in the vicinity of Negroland. But as we have already observed, the emigration of the Zenagah tribes was but partial: a few only of the Masfifah and Lumtunah obeyed the impulse, while the majority of the tribes remained behind, and keep in our days their old settlements in the Sahra, paying tribute to the Kings of Negroland, on whom they depend, and in whose armies they serve. The Goddalah are directly opposite to the DhawiHassan, a branch of the Moakel Arabs, settled in Siis el Aksa ; the Lumtunah are opposite to the Dhawi-Mansiir and Dhawi 'Obeidu-llah, branches of the same great tribe living in Maghrebu-l-Aksa. The Masufoh face the Zaghabah, an Arab tribe in Maghrebu-l-Ausat ; and the Lamtah adjoin the Benu Riyyah, who occupy Ez-Zab."—Thus it appears that the Masufah inhabiting the tract of desert between Sijilmesah and Tomboktu were in their old settlements, and, therefore, in the tract between Sijilmesah and Ghanah. (See page 17.) Leo (pt. I. c. 17-19) points out the situation of the various families of the Machil (Moakel) tribe of Arabs.
quote:Originally posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian: Charlie Bass I was thinking about you and I see you posted this. If your ancestors came from the Mississipi Delta area, then you have a likelyhood of being part Tuareg. I am learking fascinating thins about this group from French books on the subject containing stuff not in English.
You should look again at Wikipedia's entry. Of Course, you know some Tuaregs are descended from Moroccan Moors.
That's interesting. The French strike again. Too bad they know more about U.S. history than the Europeans in America.
The present celebrities that are know to descend in part from the Tuareg from dna studies include Morgan Freeman and one of the founders of the current black reparations movement in the U.S..
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Jari, First, I did not say they were not of african origin. I outlined the proper way to answer the question. Based on what we have seen here in this thread nobody would know they were of african origin. Stop trying , making a point to sound uneducated. You can do better.
Yes Jari. You can do better. Listen to the philosopher king - the Great Thor HAS SPOKEN. LOL. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Based on what we have seen here in this thread nobody would know they were of african origin.
The Tuaregs acted as the henchmen of "Sudanese" or "Sub-Saharan" (taken from thread title) African nations. With such a close relationship of course they were related. Isn't that obvious from the kind of relationship they had?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
The Almoravids were mainly Aulamidden (Lamtuna) Tuareg...
They would be reliant on "Sudanese" (very black Moors) for
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: smiths to whom much of the craftmanship of the Moors was probably due
As you wish Markellion. And whatever you meant. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
I'm saying these "Sudanese" were able to manipulate things to their advantage with their knowledge of trade and valuable skills
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posted
I want to make my sources clear because I don't think it amounts to much if I say "I read this and that" but yes we know that the Tuaregs acted as henchmen
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The fact that they and especially high classed "Moors" - a name for the the Hassaniyya and Trarza in Mauritania and elsewhere- are today "a shade lighter" than Mande and other black Africans speaks to the number of white slaves they have been trading between Morocco and Mauritania and Senegal until recently. But, it certainly says nothing of what they looked like in the Almoravid 12th century and before.
This is where the term "Sudan" comes in because the "Sudan" were a shade darker. [/b]
[/QUOTE]
Umm - the Tuareg and other Moors were also darker before the mixed with non-black people. I think most people know where the term Sudan comes from.
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posted
In the 12th century they were already lighter skinned than the "Sudan" thus the use of the word. However the slave trade would have a major impact but slaves were also brought to the Mali empire and places like that
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: I want to make my sources clear because I don't think it amounts to much if I say "I read this and that" but yes we know that the Tuaregs acted as henchmen
This statement in response to what I have been posting is irrelevant - as usual. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
I've heard things about fair skinned slaves in Mali but I have no idea know how many
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: As you wish Markellion. And whatever you meant
What I said was a response to you my point is that these African empires had a great amount of influence. I think you'd be useful if I can convert you to my side side so I'm going to keep trying
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: In the 12th century they were already lighter skinned than the "Sudan" thus the use of the word. However the slave trade would have a major impact but slaves were also brought to the Mali empire and places like that
Who is they and who says Markellion. And what the heck are you trying to say again. As I said above your thinking pattern leaves me stumped.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: I've heard things about fair skinned slaves in Mali but I have no idea know how many
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: As you wish Markellion. And whatever you meant
What I said was a response to you my point is that these African empires had a great amount of influence. I think you'd be useful if I can convert you to my side side so I'm going to keep trying
Convert me to what. The sad thing Markellion is that u can't even understand I am already on your side due to ur inferiority complex about Sudanic civilization which is more ancient than Tuareg nomads in sub-Saharan Africa. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: They is the Tuaregs and the Moors that were a shade lighter than the "Sudanese" Moors
The Moors became lighter after mixing with other people whether you like it or not. What sources do you have that say they were lighter in the 12th century.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Their use of the word "Sudan" (Yes Moors were very dark skinned Sudanese just means very black)
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Hassaniyya looking man sitting down in your picture is probably of predominantly Arab origin. Many Tuareg, Hassaniyya and Trarza of Mauritania are the same Moors who are described in the 18th century were dragging European blue eyed Christian slaves through the desert. Many other concubines came from the Ottoman Turkish (Balkan) world. They are thus more mixed therefore than other black Africans.
Hassaniyya claim descent from the Sulaym or Maqil the well known black Arabians who came across North Africa. The fact that they and especially high classed "Moors" - a name for the the Hassaniyya and Trarza in Mauritania and elsewhere- are today "a shade lighter" than Mande and other black Africans speaks to the number of white slaves they have been trading between Morocco and Mauritania and Senegal until recently. But, it certainly says nothing of what they looked like in the Almoravid 12th century and before.
This trade went on until the last century. See he 1902 book, The Moors: A Comprehensive Description by Budgett Meakin 1902 p. 138.
From the chapter entitled "Slavery among the Moors" which speaks of the white slave trade in Morocco - “Another way in which the Europeans have been frequently outwitted is by the importation of Circassian and other slaves and eunuchs from Turkey via braltar or Algiers in foreign vessels, usually entered as members of the family of their master. Notwithstanding the nominal prohibition of the trade in the Turkish Empire, there are houses on the Bosporus where young children are trained for the hareems by instruction in music and dancing, and even in English and French, as well as in the degrading arts by which the women of these lands endeavour to secure the favour of their lords...This is often the case with white concubines, who are in great demand, even if natives. Consequently white girls are frequently kidnapped, and in time of war openly sold, to be trained by dealers in this special article, but though, if report is to be credited, some do occasionally yield to the temptation to sell their own daughters by slave-mothers, such a proceeding is not only illegal, but in the highest degree abhorrent in native eyes.”
I guess this would explain European paintings such as these..
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ This reminds me... It's funny how Europeans and especially Eurocentric scholars are so loquacious about the black African presence in Europe or in the 'Western' world at large as slaves but always silent about white Europeans being the ones enslaved by blacks. Yet here below is an example of one of black African slave heritage who also happened to be a member of a powerful European elite during Medieval times. This gentleman was discussed many times before in this forum, as the veterans of the forum know.
Both of the objects highlighted here feature Alessandro de' Medici (1511-37), the first Duke of Florence. It is thought that Alessandro's mother was a Moorish slave.
The Medici, an Italian family of merchants, bankers, rulers, patrons and collectors, dominated the political and cultural life of Florence from the 15th century to the mid 18th century. They were expelled from Florence in 1494-1512 and 1527-30. In 1530, after a long and bitter siege, the army of the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V conquered the city and backed the installment of Alessandro de' Medici as the first Duke of Florence. Alessandro's reign ended in 1537, when he was assassinated by his cousin and rival Lorenzino de' Medici. As he had no children with his wife (Margaret of Austria, illegitimate daughter of the emperor Charles V), and his illegitimate son Giulio was only four years old, Alessandro was succeeded by a member of another branch of the Medici family, Cosimo I.
Officially, Alessandro was the illegitimate son of Lorenzo de' Medici, Duke of Urbino (1492-1519), but it was rumoured that Lorenzo's cousin Giulio (later Pope Clement VII), had fathered him. Alessandro's mother, Simonetta, was allegedly a Moorish slave who had worked in the household of Lorenzo and his parents during their exile in Rome.
Although Alessandro's paternity was disputed, contemporaries acknowledged his maternal ancestry, even nicknaming him 'Il Moro', the Moor. This term was (and is still) used in Italy to describe Africans and also Europeans with dark complexions or hair. But contemporary references to Alessandro's dark skin, curly hair, wide nose and thick lips, as well as visual evidence from surviving portraits, suggest that he was indeed of mixed heritage.
The slave status and possible African origin of Alessandro's mother are not surprising. Black Africans had been imported into Europe as slaves since 1440 onwards, when the Portuguese opened a new trade route between Mediterranean Europe and the west coast of sub-Saharan Africa. Many Italians, often from the maritime republics of Genoa and Venice, were involved in the trade, and in the 1460s there developed a fashion for using black African female slaves for domestic labour. These slaves were seen as symbols of status but also of the exotic new lands that were then being discovered.
Sometimes, there were sexual relations between female slaves and their masters or other freedmen. Florentine statutes of 1415 granted children born of such unions the free legal status of the father. However, Roman law, which applied across much of the Italian peninsula, stated that the legal status of a child followed that of its mother. Female slaves were therefore often freed by their masters so that their children would be free. After Alessandro's birth in Urbino, Simonetta was freed and moved to Colle Vecchio, near Rome, where she lived with her husband Lostensor (whose name may suggest that he was also of African descent) and their two children.
Like many freed Africans in Renaissance Italy, Simonetta lived in poverty. Letters that she wrote to Alessandro in the 1530s, asking for financial aid, reveal a stark contrast between her scanty means and the wealth of her son.
The cameo shown here, possibly made by Alessandro's court medallist and gem-engraver Domenico de' Vetri, bears a profile portrait of the duke, bearded and dressed in the style of a Roman emperor. The choice of green chalcedony may have been intended to represent Alessandro's dark skin and tightly curled hair. During the Renaissance, cameo portraits in the classical tradition were important as emblems of dynastic power. They were highly prized by collectors and were often presented as gifts.
The painting of Alessandro, in which his dark skin and hair is visible, follows an earlier half-length portrait by the Florentine painter Jacopo Pontormo (1494-1556), now in the Philadelphia Museum of Art. The Philadelphia portrait shows Alessandro dressed in mourning for the death of Clement VII and drawing the profile of a woman in silverpoint. It was commissioned in 1534 as a gift for Taddea Malaspina, the mother of two of his illegitimate children, probably in commemoration of the birth of their daughter Giulia.
Alessandro had many enemies among Florentine exiles. They regarded him as a tyrannical despot responsible for depriving republican Florence of its liberty. Seemingly unconcerned with the ethnicity of his mother, they mocked Alessandro for her peasant status, even accusing him of poisoning her to hide his lowly origins. This suggests that people of African or mixed heritage who held positions of power, such as ambassadors and dignitaries, were less likely to be subjected to racial stereotyping than their poor or enslaved counterparts.
As the first of the Medici to be installed as a hereditary ruler of Florence, Alessandro has received surprisingly little study. Historians have criticised his rule for its severity, but contemporaries were more favourable. They commented on his political skills, spontaneous generosity and concern for the poor, as well as his informal style of leadership. Like other members of the Medici dynasty, Alessandro was also a patron of the arts.
His ethnicity has usually been ignored, perhaps because historians were uncomfortable with the fact that Alessandro's descendants married into eminent houses all over Europe. Writers who did acknowledge his mixed heritage judged him harshly, claiming that he was an unprincipled, sexually voracious seducer of aristocratic women. Hopefully, the recent academic interest in Alessandro will lead to an unbiased reassessment of his character, reign and significance in European history.
^ The very last paragraph is no surprise there.
Alessandro de' Medici Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: As you wish Markellion. And whatever you meant.
This is what I mean. The "Sudanese" were the original Jews who manipulated trade and everything to dominate the world. Please read the article about African iron age it'll explain why I was referring to what you said about black smiths
quote:Originally posted by markellion:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Almoravids were mainly Aulamidden (Lamtuna) Tuareg now centered in Niger. Lower caste Tuareg smiths to whom much of the craftmanship of the Moors was probably due are of Nilo-Saharan origin related to Teda Tibbu-Krit or Ikaradan groups.
I think this might have allot to do with European and especially French colonialism. I think the smith skills would give people an edge and thus make them more dominant not the other way around. I've been talking about this skills thing over and over but I was hoping people would incorporate it into their overall view of this history. Notice that these Africans conquered northward into the Sahara this is not just fun facts but something to incorporate into the overall view of history. This directly relates to Moors in Spain because as dana marniche pointed out these people are "to whom much of the craftmanship of the Moors was probably due". This does give good evidence of the power and influence of these "Sudanese" (very black) people
"The question of the Iron Age in Africa" This article talks about blacksmiths (Because you mentioned craftsmen above I thought this was interesting)
According to Ibn Sa’id the authority of the sultan of Kanim extended over Kawar and Fazzan, and the Berbers were slaves of the king of Kanim. He confirmed that during periods of strength Kanim expanded northward into the Sahara, rather than southward
page 44
From Ibn Sa'id directly (13th century)
"This sultan has authority there over kingdoms such as those of the Tajuwa, Kawar, and Fazzan. God has assisted him and he has many descendants and armies. His clothes are brought to him from the capital of Tunish. He has scholars around him..."
quote:The Negro is a born trader. Lenz says, "our sharpest European merchants, even Jews and Armenians, can learn much of the cunning and trade of the Negroes". We know that the trade between Central Africa and Egypt was in the hands of Negroes for thousands of years, and in early days the cities of the Sudan and North Africa grew rich through Negro trade.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ This reminds me... It's funny how Europeans and especially Eurocentric scholars are so loquacious about the black African presence in Europe or in the 'Western' world at large as slaves but always silent about white Europeans being the ones enslaved by blacks. Yet here below is an example of one of black African slave heritage who also happened to be a member of a powerful European elite during Medieval times. This gentleman was discussed many times before in this forum, as the veterans of the forum know.
Both of the objects highlighted here feature Alessandro de' Medici (1511-37), the first Duke of Florence. It is thought that Alessandro's mother was a Moorish slave.
The Medici, an Italian family of merchants, bankers, rulers, patrons and collectors, dominated the political and cultural life of Florence from the 15th century to the mid 18th century. They were expelled from Florence in 1494-1512 and 1527-30. In 1530, after a long and bitter siege, the army of the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V conquered the city and backed the installment of Alessandro de' Medici as the first Duke of Florence. Alessandro's reign ended in 1537, when he was assassinated by his cousin and rival Lorenzino de' Medici. As he had no children with his wife (Margaret of Austria, illegitimate daughter of the emperor Charles V), and his illegitimate son Giulio was only four years old, Alessandro was succeeded by a member of another branch of the Medici family, Cosimo I.
Officially, Alessandro was the illegitimate son of Lorenzo de' Medici, Duke of Urbino (1492-1519), but it was rumoured that Lorenzo's cousin Giulio (later Pope Clement VII), had fathered him. Alessandro's mother, Simonetta, was allegedly a Moorish slave who had worked in the household of Lorenzo and his parents during their exile in Rome.
Although Alessandro's paternity was disputed, contemporaries acknowledged his maternal ancestry, even nicknaming him 'Il Moro', the Moor. This term was (and is still) used in Italy to describe Africans and also Europeans with dark complexions or hair. But contemporary references to Alessandro's dark skin, curly hair, wide nose and thick lips, as well as visual evidence from surviving portraits, suggest that he was indeed of mixed heritage.
The slave status and possible African origin of Alessandro's mother are not surprising. Black Africans had been imported into Europe as slaves since 1440 onwards, when the Portuguese opened a new trade route between Mediterranean Europe and the west coast of sub-Saharan Africa. Many Italians, often from the maritime republics of Genoa and Venice, were involved in the trade, and in the 1460s there developed a fashion for using black African female slaves for domestic labour. These slaves were seen as symbols of status but also of the exotic new lands that were then being discovered.
Sometimes, there were sexual relations between female slaves and their masters or other freedmen. Florentine statutes of 1415 granted children born of such unions the free legal status of the father. However, Roman law, which applied across much of the Italian peninsula, stated that the legal status of a child followed that of its mother. Female slaves were therefore often freed by their masters so that their children would be free. After Alessandro's birth in Urbino, Simonetta was freed and moved to Colle Vecchio, near Rome, where she lived with her husband Lostensor (whose name may suggest that he was also of African descent) and their two children.
Like many freed Africans in Renaissance Italy, Simonetta lived in poverty. Letters that she wrote to Alessandro in the 1530s, asking for financial aid, reveal a stark contrast between her scanty means and the wealth of her son.
The cameo shown here, possibly made by Alessandro's court medallist and gem-engraver Domenico de' Vetri, bears a profile portrait of the duke, bearded and dressed in the style of a Roman emperor. The choice of green chalcedony may have been intended to represent Alessandro's dark skin and tightly curled hair. During the Renaissance, cameo portraits in the classical tradition were important as emblems of dynastic power. They were highly prized by collectors and were often presented as gifts.
The painting of Alessandro, in which his dark skin and hair is visible, follows an earlier half-length portrait by the Florentine painter Jacopo Pontormo (1494-1556), now in the Philadelphia Museum of Art. The Philadelphia portrait shows Alessandro dressed in mourning for the death of Clement VII and drawing the profile of a woman in silverpoint. It was commissioned in 1534 as a gift for Taddea Malaspina, the mother of two of his illegitimate children, probably in commemoration of the birth of their daughter Giulia.
Alessandro had many enemies among Florentine exiles. They regarded him as a tyrannical despot responsible for depriving republican Florence of its liberty. Seemingly unconcerned with the ethnicity of his mother, they mocked Alessandro for her peasant status, even accusing him of poisoning her to hide his lowly origins. This suggests that people of African or mixed heritage who held positions of power, such as ambassadors and dignitaries, were less likely to be subjected to racial stereotyping than their poor or enslaved counterparts.
As the first of the Medici to be installed as a hereditary ruler of Florence, Alessandro has received surprisingly little study. Historians have criticised his rule for its severity, but contemporaries were more favourable. They commented on his political skills, spontaneous generosity and concern for the poor, as well as his informal style of leadership. Like other members of the Medici dynasty, Alessandro was also a patron of the arts.
His ethnicity has usually been ignored, perhaps because historians were uncomfortable with the fact that Alessandro's descendants married into eminent houses all over Europe. Writers who did acknowledge his mixed heritage judged him harshly, claiming that he was an unprincipled, sexually voracious seducer of aristocratic women. Hopefully, the recent academic interest in Alessandro will lead to an unbiased reassessment of his character, reign and significance in European history.
^ The very last paragraph is no surprise there.
Alessandro de' Medici
I can see why this fellow's lips might be described thick amongst Euro observers, since many Euro-folks tend to have paper thin upper lips, but the nose? At least from the images presented in your post, the fellow's nose is anything but "wide" to me; his nose profile is a rather high bridged narrow nasal-width one from what I can see in those images.
quote:Originally posted by markellion:
They is the Tuaregs and the Moors that were a shade lighter than the "Sudanese" Moors
"Tuaregs" come in varying shades, from light brown to dark brown. Unlike sections of coastal northern Africans however, they are rarely ever outside the natural African continuum.
It would also be a mistake to assume that "Tuareg" is mutually exclusive of "sub-Saharan" African, not only geographically and politically speaking, but also biologically speaking.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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In the 12th century they were already lighter skinned than the "Sudan" thus the use of the word. However the slave trade would have a major impact but slaves were also brought to the Mali empire and places like that
Bilad al-Sudan in many Arabic literature of the Medieval period was from a general geographic context rather than skin color, even though -- yes, the basis of the term is one of reference to skin color. The "Maghreb" was on the other hand, a general reference to coastal northwestern Africa -- again, a geographic context. I highly question that from the use of those terms, especially in Eurocentric "translation" efforts, that you will be able to materially put forward that "Tuaregs" are either not "black Africans" or that they are mutually exclusive of "sub-Saharan" Africans.
As for the Almoravids; the group is said to have originated from around the Senegal River area. What does that mean to you?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Hassaniyya looking man sitting down in your picture is probably of predominantly Arab origin. Many Tuareg, Hassaniyya and Trarza of Mauritania are the same Moors who are described in the 18th century were dragging European blue eyed Christian slaves through the desert. Many other concubines came from the Ottoman Turkish (Balkan) world. They are thus more mixed therefore than other black Africans.
Hassaniyya claim descent from the Sulaym or Maqil the well known black Arabians who came across North Africa. The fact that they and especially high classed "Moors" - a name for the the Hassaniyya and Trarza in Mauritania and elsewhere- are today "a shade lighter" than Mande and other black Africans speaks to the number of white slaves they have been trading between Morocco and Mauritania and Senegal until recently. But, it certainly says nothing of what they looked like in the Almoravid 12th century and before.
This trade went on until the last century. See he 1902 book, The Moors: A Comprehensive Description by Budgett Meakin 1902 p. 138.
From the chapter entitled "Slavery among the Moors" which speaks of the white slave trade in Morocco - “Another way in which the Europeans have been frequently outwitted is by the importation of Circassian and other slaves and eunuchs from Turkey via braltar or Algiers in foreign vessels, usually entered as members of the family of their master. Notwithstanding the nominal prohibition of the trade in the Turkish Empire, there are houses on the Bosporus where young children are trained for the hareems by instruction in music and dancing, and even in English and French, as well as in the degrading arts by which the women of these lands endeavour to secure the favour of their lords...This is often the case with white concubines, who are in great demand, even if natives. Consequently white girls are frequently kidnapped, and in time of war openly sold, to be trained by dealers in this special article, but though, if report is to be credited, some do occasionally yield to the temptation to sell their own daughters by slave-mothers, such a proceeding is not only illegal, but in the highest degree abhorrent in native eyes.”
I guess this would explain European paintings such as these..
It largely explains the presence of fairer- skinned women represented in so many 18th century paintings.
But some of the fairer-skinned men were not necessarily related to the Moors or even Moorish Arabs. The Rustamite kingdom of Algeira was founded by Iranians in a place were the Lam or Aulammiden Tuareg used to be. There were also many merchants of Syria and Khorasan (Iran) and other places occupying the Maghreb even before the Turks came (who were of Central Asian and Slavic origin).
According to Bornu manuscripts the Tuareg mixed with "Turks and Tartars" mentioned by Palmer. Those of the Hoggar are descendants of the Ihaggaren, Hawara, Lamta Tuareg who have mixed with the Syrian and Khorasani merchants.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: How about your obsession with Arab and Arab mixed ruling classes?
Those are your words. Please don't project your ignorance and sense of inferiority onto me. I am trying to preserve black African history and explain to u what their own oral traditions mean of Yemenite and Canaanite origins. If you can not accept African traditions which stem from Sudan itself then you need to stop watcing so many Tarzan movies!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: As you wish Markellion. And whatever you meant.
This is what I mean. The "Sudanese" were the original Jews who manipulated trade and everything to dominate the world. Please read the article about African iron age it'll explain why I was referring to what you said about black smiths
quote:Originally posted by markellion:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Almoravids were mainly Aulamidden (Lamtuna) Tuareg now centered in Niger. Lower caste Tuareg smiths to whom much of the craftmanship of the Moors was probably due are of Nilo-Saharan origin related to Teda Tibbu-Krit or Ikaradan groups.
I think this might have allot to do with European and especially French colonialism. I think the smith skills would give people an edge and thus make them more dominant not the other way around. I've been talking about this skills thing over and over but I was hoping people would incorporate it into their overall view of this history. Notice that these Africans conquered northward into the Sahara this is not just fun facts but something to incorporate into the overall view of history. This directly relates to Moors in Spain because as dana marniche pointed out these people are "to whom much of the craftmanship of the Moors was probably due". This does give good evidence of the power and influence of these "Sudanese" (very black) people
"The question of the Iron Age in Africa" This article talks about blacksmiths (Because you mentioned craftsmen above I thought this was interesting)
quote:The Negro is a born trader. Lenz says, "our sharpest European merchants, even Jews and Armenians, can learn much of the cunning and trade of the Negroes". We know that the trade between Central Africa and Egypt was in the hands of Negroes for thousands of years, and in early days the cities of the Sudan and North Africa grew rich through Negro trade.
Exactly Markellion and the fact they came from Yemen and Hejaz in Arabia where THEY CLAIM TO HAVE COME FROM and where Jews originated doesn't make them any less black. Get it ?! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: How about your obsession with Arab and Arab mixed ruling classes?
Those are your words. Please don't project your ignorance and sense of inferiority onto me. I am trying to preserve black African history and explain to u what their own oral traditions mean of Yemenite and Canaanite origins. If you can not accept African traditions which stem from Sudan itself then you need to stop watcing so many Tarzan movies!
In the 12th century they were already lighter skinned than the "Sudan" thus the use of the word. However the slave trade would have a major impact but slaves were also brought to the Mali empire and places like that
Bilad al-Sudan in many Arabic literature of the Medieval period was from a general geographic context rather than skin color, even though -- yes, the basis of the term is one of reference to skin color. The "Maghreb" was on the other hand, a general reference to coastal northwestern Africa -- again, a geographic context. I highly question that from the use of those terms, especially in Eurocentric "translation" efforts, that you will be able to materially put forward that "Tuaregs" are either not "black Africans" or that they are mutually exclusive of "sub-Saharan" Africans.
As for the Almoravids; the group is said to have originated from around the Senegal River area. What does that mean to you?
Thank you, Explorer, and I have been trying to tell Markellion the name Sudan also early on included the Arabian peninsula among Arabic speaking non-Arabs.
Also, Sudan originally referred to a group of people that came from the tribe of Kenaana in their land south of Medina in the Asir.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
The Sudan is not defined originally as "black" Markellion. THe word Sudan, like Nabit, Egyptian, Kanaani, Kush, Nigritae became words for black people because of their black color. Sorry to bust your bubble.
Thus, the true Arab Ibn abd-al Hakam born in the 9th century a member of a prominent Arab family who had settled in Egypt wrote "Canaan is the father of the Sudan and the Abyssinians." Hakam was of Arabian stock and not just an Arabic speaker. He had no problem in saying that "the Sudan" and "Abyssinians" were of the same origin as his own people - the Kenaana tribal area in southwest Arabia. I tried to tell you previously Sudan, Kenaana and Kush were very ancient names of peoples of southern Arabia. But u are not getting it.
The Akhbar al Zaman attributed to Masudi 9th c. of Baghdad also refers to "Sudan as the son of Canaan"
Ibn Qutaybah quotes Wah ibn Munabbih as saying "the races of Sudan" were "the Nuba (Nobatae), Zanj, Qaran, ...and Berber." As I have told you the Beriberi and the Sudan were originally the same people.
These Iraqi historians also say the Sudan were cursed and BLACK. All of them!
Thus your assessment of what was originally meant by "the Sudan" is fundamentally off course.
Kush, Sudan, Kenaana, Habeshat, Nabit were originally tribal names that became geographical designations and then finally color designations, and not vice versa.
The Akhbar es Zaman also says that "Nabit was a child of Canaan" and that "the word Nabit means black".
See the Curse of Ham: Race and Slavery in early Judaism Christianity and Islam p. 352
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Bilad al-Sudan in many Arabic literature of the Medieval period was from a general geographic context rather than skin color, even though -- yes, the basis of the term is one of reference to skin color. The "Maghreb" was on the other hand, a general reference to coastal northwestern Africa -- again, a geographic context. I highly question that from the use of those terms, especially in Eurocentric "translation" efforts, that you will be able to materially put forward that "Tuaregs" are either not "black Africans" or that they are mutually exclusive of "sub-Saharan" Africans.
As for the Almoravids; the group is said to have originated from around the Senegal River area. What does that mean to you?
Thank you this helps put it in context for me about the word "Bilad al-Sudan". I was referring specifically to another comment and I've shown the close relationship that existed so there aren't strict barriers between people
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: How about your obsession with Arab and Arab mixed ruling classes?
Those are your words. Please don't project your ignorance and sense of inferiority onto me. I am trying to preserve black African history and explain to u what their own oral traditions mean of Yemenite and Canaanite origins. If you can not accept African traditions which stem from Sudan itself then you need to stop watcing so many Tarzan movies!
LOL
Most of this is a result of European colonialism. Why would all these people be descended from Yemen and Canaanites
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
Veiled people is not a translation of Morabites. Veiled people is a translation of mulathimun. Morabites is a translation of al~Murabitun. Al~Murabitun are those who are members of a ribat.
posted
It doesn't matter so much what one thinks as what the facts are on the ground. In Africa, for complex reasons, there are despised endogenous smith "castes."
They have a negative mystique surrounding them because of the nature of transforming ore into metal by fire and then hammering out finished products.
Unfortunately the genral African concept of metallurgy, whether stigmatized or lauded, is the main reason others outstripped Africa in metals technology in terms of sheer output.
quote:Originally posted by markellion:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Almoravids were mainly Aulamidden (Lamtuna) Tuareg now centered in Niger. Lower caste Tuareg smiths to whom much of the craftmanship of the Moors was probably due are of Nilo-Saharan origin related to Teda Tibbu-Krit or Ikaradan groups.
I think this might have allot to do with European and especially French colonialism. I think the smith skills would give people an edge and thus make them more dominant not the other way around.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Thanks for the information alTakruri I have allot of reading to do
But when talking about the craftsmanship of the "Moors" they would have to be reliant on the people with the relevant knowledge. The people with the knowledge would then in fact have an edge and this would be trading partners in Bilad al-Sudan
posted
The portolan image of a mulathimun never used in popular presentations. The veiled camel rider (may as well be Yusuf ibn Tashifin himself) is more than "a shade" darker than the enthroned potentate.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: with regards to Yusuf ibn Tashfin, we are told from translations:
“Brown in color, middle height, thin, little beard, soft voice, black eyes, straight nose, lock of Muhammad falling on top of his ear, eye brow joined, wooly hair” - Abd Allah, Roudh el-Kartas.
Chronicler Al-Fasi described him as "brown man with wooly hair", per Miriam DeCosta, The Portrayal of Blacks in a Spanish Medieval Manuscript.
In the part from me you quoted you left out the part about the conquests going northward into the Sahara. Concerning Moorish Spain in particular it would not have been a good idea to discriminate against people with such valuable skills
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The portolan image of a mulathimun never used in popular presentations. The veiled camel rider (may as well be Yusuf ibn Tashifin himself) is more than "a shade" darker than the enthroned potentate.
You know, despite all your Jew sh!t, I really do miss your contributions Great Jew. Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
The seated man is reportedly Mansa Musa. It is an Italian sourced painting made sometime in the 14th century; I have made note of this here before.
I stand corrected here, per metmuseum site, which reports that it is of Spanish origin. They note: Facsimilie of a map drawn in Spain and dated to 1375, showing the king of Mali holding a gold nugget. Image courtesy of the British Library. The original is held by the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris.Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
So they are both Mansa Musa..so who or why did the Camel rider got darker or liter depending on which was made first?.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Either both are repros, or one of them is a repro. The original is in the possession of "Bibliotheque Nationale" based in Paris, as noted above. My guess is that the top one is the repro.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: "Golden age of the Moor" By Ivan Van Sertima page 37 according to him Ibn Hawkal (950) said that the Tuaregs originally came from the "Sudan"
They did come from the Sudan originally Markellion. The veiled "Beriberi" were thought by ibn Khaldfun to have spread from the Riff region of Abyssinia in remote times. Even in the 11th century some people of Nubia and Zeila in Somalia wore the veil as did nobles of Ghana and Kaukau and the merchants of Takrur according to Idrisi. And of course they claimed to have arrived there in East Africa from the Arabia.
Khaldun said, "Having multiplied in these parts (the riff) they formed several tribes such as Goddala, the Lamtuna, the Masufa, Targa, Zaghawa and Lamta."
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Though I am loathe to research and report here anymore due to the decline of scholarship on these forums you're a good guy Bru so here's for you.
The top map is a copy of Abraham Cresque the Jew of Palma's Mappamundi originally made in 1375 and the bottom map is a copy/version of the Mappamundi delivered by request to a French king decades later.
The text near the potentate roughly reads:
quote:This Black lord is called Musa Mali, Lord of the Blacks of Guinea. So abundant is the gold which is found in his country that he is the richest and most noble king in all the land.
This map, a Jewish product, was a fresh breath of air in comparison with earlier maps breaking away from conventions that populated Africa with beasts of myth and nature placing "elephants where should be towns."
Without Aragonese tolerance of Jews we'd not have the Mappamundi and its testament image of a "black as a pot" mulithamun of Saharan Kel taGelmust.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: AlTakruri you have been holding out on us Bru this is suppose to be the same as this depicting Mansa Musa or another monarch at another time..?
"WOW" thanks man,so when were these maps made and is one older than the other..
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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