posted
What’s significant about crosses circulating all the way to the Coast (see bellow) is that it shows influence from all over Africa could have also reached places like Spain and India. This is why I have been posting information about far reaching influence of African languages like Hausa or the far reaching influence of the Swahili language within the continent. It is to show the great many long distance connections that exist within the continent and with this remarkable long distance trade and exchange of ideas everything shouldn’t be seen as simply coming from Arabs or whatever. Why should so much be seen as coming from Yemen and other places when there was already so many cultural connections within the continent? Doesn’t it seem reasonable that these Africans from the Swahili Coast and other places traveled to the “Middle East” and other places even more, perhaps, than the other way around? With all the far reaching connections within the continent they would have influenced places outside of the continent too
It wasn’t just control of trade that gave the “Sudanese” a great advantage in the world but also knowledge of it just like with the king of Zafun whose knowledge in the art of kingship was important to the commander of the Muslims at Marrakesh and the world wide usefulness of “Sudanese” navigators and in some places “Sudanese” had a monopoly when it came to certain industries. And I have to ask if the commander of the Muslims was so dependant on the king of Zafun when it came to matters of government what did the Almoravids do in earlier times? Also impact on agriculture had to be very great in Spain and other places
There a problem with the general idea that "Sudanese" soldiers were simply "used" and were simply there following orders. Of course they were there being used but they could also manipulate things to their own advantage and their importance would definitely be a way in which the "Sudanese" had the upper hand
quote: Among the genuine tillers the whole life of the family is taken up in agriculture, and hence the months are by preference called after the operations which they demand. Constant clearings change forests to fields, and the ground is manured with the ashes of the burnt thicket. In the middle of the fields rise the light watch-towers, from which a watchman scares grain-eating birds and other thieves. An African cultivated landscape is incomplete without barns. The rapidity with which, when newly imported, the most various forms of cultivation spread in Africa says much for the attention which is devoted to this branch of economy. Industries, again, which may be called agricultural, like the preparation of meal from millet and other crops, also from cassava, the fabrication of fermented drinks from grain, or the manufacture of cotton, are widely known and sedulously fostered.
Page 89
quote:Livingstone (1871) passed thirty smelting houses in one journey, and Cameron came across bellows with valves, .. and tribes who used knives in eating. He found tribes which no Europeans had ever visited, who made ingots of copper in the form of the St. Andrew’s cross, which circulated even to the coast…. Wilson (1856) found natives in West Africa who could repair American watches. ….
….Caille found the Negroes in Bambana manufacturing gunpowder (1824-28), and the Hausa make soap; so, too, Negroes in Uganda and other parts have made guns after seeing European models.
page 91
quote:The Negro is a born trader. Lenz says, "our sharpest European merchants, even Jews and Armenians, can learn much of the cunning and trade of the Negroes". We know that the trade between Central Africa and Egypt was in the hands of Negroes for thousands of years, and in early days the cities of the Sudan and North Africa grew rich through Negro trade.
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Markellion that last post doesn't make sense. You haven't done anything but post random quotes that have no logical coherent flow and don't really say anything. The only trading these quotes reference is trade across Africa between African countries. But the evidence of trade within Africa among indigenous Africans is widespread and does not need to rely on various incoherent quotes for support.
but where is the "world wide" trade that you talked about? Come on dude. What ports were involved? What was traded, when and who was involved? Answering these types of questions means READING books, multiple books and multiple sources, not simply depending on one or two quotes. It isn't as if there isn't more information out there that can be used to support your argument. Therefore either posting these random quotes means that you don't want to take the time to actually go do some research or you don't know where to look or both.
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We know that all the great Muslim centers of learning were connected together and these existed in several places throughout Africa and we know that these "Sudanese" scholars traveled to different places in the Muslim world and taught. We also know that people from all over the Muslim world traveled to these centers of learning in Africa to both teach and learn. The reason I'm talking about trade within Africa was to emphasize that they were able to keep outsiders out while at the same time controlling important aspects of world trade like through the Sahara. The spread of ideas through Africa would also make it's way through the Muslim world.
We also know that these "Sudanese" mercenaries were of the highest importance since before Islam and we also know that "Sudanese" traveled all over the world including China and India because they had certain skills
quote:The Negro is a born trader. Lenz says, "our sharpest European merchants, even Jews and Armenians, can learn much of the cunning and trade of the Negroes". We know that the trade between Central Africa and Egypt was in the hands of Negroes for thousands of years, and in early days the cities of the Sudan and North Africa grew rich through Negro trade.
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
The king of Zafun is stronger than the veiled people of the Maghreb and more versed in the art of kingship. The veiled people acknowledge his superiority over them, obey him and resort to him in all important matters of government. One year the king, on his way to the pilgrimage, came to the Maghreb to pay a visit to the commander of the Muslims, the veiled king of the Maghreb, of the tribe of Lamtuna. The Commander of the Muslims met him on foot, wheras the king of Zafun did not dismount for him. He was tall, of deep black complexion and veiled
page 45 From Ibn Sa'id 13th century
In the same latitude is Zafun, which belongs to pagan Sudan and whose ruler enjoys a good reputation among (other) kings of the Sudan
posted
One thing that needs to be stressed is the knowledge of geography, which I pointed out before. There was a great amount of ignorance by outsiders when it came to the geography of most of Africa while on the other hand these Africans were extraordinarily well informed when it came to the goings on in the world. The ruler of Mali sent letters to distant people that suggested he was manipulating them and this emperor was very well informed concerning anything connected to Malian trading interests. This in itself is remarkable and is highly significant in regards of world trade. While people from many different places in the world came since the old Ghana empire to make money there was still a great deal of ignorance in geography, this would also mean it would be very hard to manipulate these "Sudanese" people because knowledge is power. These people came to make money but the ignorance concerning geography remained.
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The reason why I don't like to use black which is confusing becuase there are blacks and the Arabs especially Southern Arabs are a shade lighter than many so called Blacks...but the info I posted shows that Soildiers from the South of the desert as well as the North with Berber populations was used in Moorish Spain which means that as usual the Moors were a Mix of Blacks, Berbers, and Arabs also Native Iberians and Slavs were present..
Moors was a reference to "black Africans" in the Iberian peninsula. And the 'black' presence goes beyond mere foot soldiers, they were the leaders: The Almoravids, a genealogical subject of this thread before it drifted off, was led by "black" figures; with regards to Yusuf ibn Tashfin, we are told from translations:
“Brown in color, middle height, thin, little beard, soft voice, black eyes, straight nose, lock of Muhammad falling on top of his ear, eye brow joined, wooly hair” - Abd Allah, Roudh el-Kartas.
Chronicler Al-Fasi described him as "brown man with wooly hair", per Miriam DeCosta, The Portrayal of Blacks in a Spanish Medieval Manuscript.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
One question I have is why did these scientists attribute this mutation to Sub-Saharan origins but associate it with the Almoravids when if I recall, the Almoravids were of the Lamtuna clan of Tuareg which is native to areas of northern Mauritania, southern Morocco, and western Algeria?? Again this all shows the ridiculous false dichotomy of African populations into Sub-Saharan and North. Posts: 26320 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I've read accounts from one from Ivan Van Sertima that the first Moors in Spain were "Sudanese" (very black as opposed to brown). White meant brown or dark skinned versus black. Much of the technology example agriculture that was brought to Spain probably came from different parts of Africa
It was not just control of trade but knowledge that allowed for these empires like ancient Ghana to have an advantage and finance the conquest of Spain. It was this kind of thing that allowed for the financing of the Muslim conquests:
100 things that you did not know about Africa 26-50
quote:28. Cheques are not quite as new an invention as we were led to believe. In the tenth century, an Arab geographer, Ibn Haukal, visited a fringe region of Ancient Ghana. Writing in 951 AD, he told of a cheque for 42,000 golden dinars written to a merchant in the city of Audoghast by his partner in Sidjilmessa.
posted
^ "brown" in the Arabs' point of view could be dark-brown as in chocolate brown. You have to understand that many Arabs themselves were pretty dark and "brown" to Europeans already.
Posts: 26320 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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But concerning "blacks" ancient Ghana was sophisticated enough do you think it is possible that they and other "Sudanese" people were pulling the strings here and contributed greatly to the skills, technologies ect. in Spain? Some scholars actually claim that the Almoravids had much of their success because of the slaves and loot they supposedly took from invading the lands of the south. This is fascinating because it shows that soldiers and wealth from the south were essential. European colonialists would be especially keen in distorting this period of history by distorting and mistranslating the texts and everything Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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One question I have is why did these scientists attribute this mutation to Sub-Saharan origins but associate it with the Almoravids when if I recall, the Almoravids were of the Lamtuna clan of Tuareg which is native to areas of northern Mauritania, southern Morocco, and western Algeria?? Again this all shows the ridiculous false dichotomy of African populations into Sub-Saharan and North.
The Imazighen presence extended as far south as near Senegal. Is it any wonder where the term "Senegal" comes from? The attribution to Almoravids comes from the fact that the group had been involved as far south as ancient Ghana, and the fact that they ruled northwestern Africa, which was subsumed under the Almoravid empire, before heading to the Iberian peninsula. The mutation presumably has its greatest frequencies in regions below coastal northwestern African areas.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: But concerning "blacks" ancient Ghana was sophisticated enough do you think it is possible that they and other "Sudanese" people were pulling the strings here and contributed greatly to the skills, technologies ect. in Spain? Some scholars actually claim that the Almoravids had much of their success because of the slaves and loot they supposedly took from invading the lands of the south. This is fascinating because it shows that soldiers and wealth from the south were essential. European colonialists would be especially keen in distorting this period of history by distorting and mistranslating the texts and everything
Markellion, why are you saying the same thing over and over again? Nobody is debating you.
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I've read accounts from one from Ivan Van Sertima that the first Moors in Spain were "Sudanese" (very black as opposed to brown). White meant brown or dark skinned versus black. Much of the technology example agriculture that was brought to Spain probably came from different parts of Africa
It was not just control of trade but knowledge that allowed for these empires like ancient Ghana to have an advantage and finance the conquest of Spain. It was this kind of thing that allowed for the financing of the Muslim conquests:
100 things that you did not know about Africa 26-50
quote:28. Cheques are not quite as new an invention as we were led to believe. In the tenth century, an Arab geographer, Ibn Haukal, visited a fringe region of Ancient Ghana. Writing in 951 AD, he told of a cheque for 42,000 golden dinars written to a merchant in the city of Audoghast by his partner in Sidjilmessa.
There is no mystery about the Moors. The visual aids of the heads of the four princes makes no mistake about what it means. The description of the usherer of the Almoravid rule, Yusuf ibn Tashfin, makes no mistake about this either. I highly doubt Arabs would assume that "white folks" of Europe were "brown and wooly haired" as opposed to, well, "white". This is the confusion that some people of today create for themselves.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Markellion, why are you saying the same thing over and over again? Nobody is debating you.
It would be nice to have more accurate translations of the Arabic texts so we can read more about Ghana and Mali manipulating the Muslim world and funding/supporting their conquests
About Senegal I heard a random guy say it was a mispronunciation of a woloff word. This is from the Senegal site about the origins of the name:
quote:The name 'Sénégal' is said to come from the Wolof name of the dugout canoe, as it was mispronounced by visiting Portuguese sailors in the middle of the 15th century
posted
It is implicated to have come from the word "Zenega", which is associated with an Imazighen community. What is this word "canoe" that you are alluding to?
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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I don't know the guy made a big deal out of it and said that it meant "our dugout" and how colonialists mispronounced these words and including Algeria
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The word is reportedly "Sunugaal", meaning "our canoe".
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why someone deny the fact that couldn't be covered.i mean anything almoravids took and contributed to spain or all andalouse brought from africa since their movement began at the banks of river senegal.everything crafts, gold, ivory,irrigation technics came from african moravids.omar ibnu yahya amir of morabids is a saint well known in and around niger river,that part of west africa
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Markellion, why are you saying the same thing over and over again? Nobody is debating you.
It would be nice to have more accurate translations of the Arabic texts so we can read more about Ghana and Mali manipulating the Muslim world and funding/supporting their conquests
About Senegal I heard a random guy say it was a mispronunciation of a woloff word. This is from the Senegal site about the origins of the name:
quote:The name 'Sénégal' is said to come from the Wolof name of the dugout canoe, as it was mispronounced by visiting Portuguese sailors in the middle of the 15th century
The gold of Africa financed large parts of the Islamic and European world for a thousand years or more. And for a large part of that time it was the Africans who controlled the trade and grew wealthy off it, including ancient Ghana, the Almoravids and so forth. I don't recall any particular historian that disputes this.
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They certainly dispute the agency of empires like the ancient Ghana empire. Changing the meaning of a few words could dramatically change the meaning of the text and it would be important to have accurate translations
Edit: And I've found translations that came after 1841 to be worse. The 1841 translation of Ibn Khaldun said that the Almoravids took over ancient Ghana, later translations add descriptions about mass pillaging and senseless destruction (rather than simply conquering them)
"Not Quite Venus from the Waves: The Almoravid Conquest of Ghana in the Modern Historiography of Western Africa" by Pekka Masonen
quote:According to Leo Africanus, the Land of the Blacks, including Guechet and Cano [Ghana] was first opened up in AH 380/1012 AD, after the arrival in North Africa of a certain Muslim. The land of the Blacks was then “inhabited by people, who lived like brutes, without kings, lords, republics, government and any customs, and without knowing husbandry.”
"The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained" 1841
quote: The people of Ghanah declined in course of time, being overwhelmed or absorbed by the Molaththemun (or muffled people —that is, the Morabites), who, adjoining them on the north towards the Berber country, attacked them, and, taking possession of their territory, compelled them to embrace the Mohammedan religion.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The gold of Africa financed large parts of the Islamic and European world for a thousand years or more. And for a large part of that time it was the Africans who controlled the trade and grew wealthy off it, including ancient Ghana, the Almoravids and so forth. I don't recall any particular historian that disputes this.
It was not simply the gold it was also the knowledge of trade as I've pointed out and it would be empires like Ghana and Mali and others that could manipulate this trade. They also had knowledge of metallurgy and the working of iron. I've also shown that later the people who made up the Almoravid empire were subject or reliant on "Sudanese" nations. The emperor of the later Mali empire was encouraging and also manipulating merchants even those that weren't within his domains. Merchants came and took advantage of the wealth of these empires but in turn the merchants were also being manipulated
quote:The Negro is a born trader. Lenz says, "our sharpest European merchants, even Jews and Armenians, can learn much of the cunning and trade of the Negroes". We know that the trade between Central Africa and Egypt was in the hands of Negroes for thousands of years, and in early days the cities of the Sudan and North Africa grew rich through Negro trade.
100 things that you did not know about Africa 26-50
quote:28. Cheques are not quite as new an invention as we were led to believe. In the tenth century, an Arab geographer, Ibn Haukal, visited a fringe region of Ancient Ghana. Writing in 951 AD, he told of a cheque for 42,000 golden dinars written to a merchant in the city of Audoghast by his partner in Sidjilmessa.
posted
Whats significant about this Cheque is that the amount of the "debt of this amount was unheard of in the Eastern provinces of the Muslim world". The same article bellow also mentions the Maqqari brothers. One is easily given a false impression that north African merchants had the advantage but this is deceiving and I've read translations of texts about Audoghast and it's relations with the ancient Ghana empire that have made me suspicious for a long time.
posted
You morons find a study with a qualified conclusion. This means the people who did the study admitted by their qualifiers(might be, could indicate etc) that the study was not meant to be seen as concrete information. You take that study and just accept it as fact without a single alternative point of view to offer. This is why you folks come up with crazy points of view that will never be mainstream.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I thought it was explained to you before 'professor' that in science suppositions are based on probability which is further based on evidence. The more evidence the higher the probability until a general theory is arrived. Which is more than we can say about any findings that show Egyptian or Nile Valley civilization being the product of non-Africans or some "caucasians".
Okay, how's this for more definite?...
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC). The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
Getting more to the topic, do you know who the Almoravids are 'professor'?? You really should since you incessantly keep referring to their peoples.
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posted
About these translations there are many other translations that are very different for example Ibn Khaldun does not show any prejudice here. The author of "The Nubian Dam" showed translations that had a remarkable lack of bias and showed some evidence of Makuria intimidating and taking advantage of Egypt which is similar to the two accounts bellow
In case anyone missed the significance of the bellow the "Veiled People" is a translation of Morabites or Almoravids. The king of Zafun traveled to Marrakesh. Zafun was later incorporated into the Mali empire. Everything I've said here has revolved around this. I think that there exists different translations and some of them are tainted with racism and others aren't
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
quote: Page 40 quote from Yaqut Edit: This is said to have happened in the 2nd quarter of the 12th century:
The king of Zafun is stronger than the veiled people of the Maghreb and more versed in the art of kingship. The veiled people acknowledge his superiority over them, obey him and resort to him in all important matters of government. One year the king, on his way to the pilgrimage, came to the Maghreb to pay a visit to the commander of the Muslims, the veiled king of the Maghreb, of the tribe of Lamtuna. The Commander of the Muslims met him on foot, wheras the king of Zafun did not dismount for him. He was tall, of deep black complexion and veiled
page 45 From Ibn Sa'id 13th century
In the same latitude is Zafun, which belongs to pagan Sudan and whose ruler enjoys a good reputation among (other) kings of the Sudan
page 98 by Ibn Khaldun is talking about how Takedda and other cities were subject to the ruler of Mali of the "Sudan"
quote: In the year 1353, in the days of sultan Abul 'Inan [of Morocco], I went to Biskara on royal business and there encountered the ambassador of the ruler of Takedda at the residence of Yusof al-Muzani, emir of Biskara. He told me about the prosperous state of this city and the continual passage of wayfares and said: "This year there passed through out city on the way to Mali a caravan of merchants from the east containing 12,000 camels." Another [informant] has told me that this is a yearly even. his country is subject to the sultan of Mali of the Sudan as is the case at present with the rest of the desert regions known as [the land of] the veiled people
quote:Originally posted by Hammered: You give me six lines from a 1997 study and have the nerve to offer that as some kind of evidence. every time you post your IQ drops a point.
Nope! It YOUR IQ that is below the retardation level if you can't comprehend what that relatively recent study says plain and simple. Also, it was you who claims we never present any valid scientific studies, yet the one I just posted is just one of hundreds while you have yet to present just ONE that supports your ridiculous assertions.
And how about you address the topic for once. Tell us who are the Almoravids and what significance do they have to world history, specifically European history??
Posts: 26320 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I thought it was explained to you before 'professor' that in science suppositions are based on probability which is further based on evidence. The more evidence the higher the probability until a general theory is arrived. Which is more than we can say about any findings that show Egyptian or Nile Valley civilization being the product of non-Africans or some "caucasians".
Okay, how's this for more definite?...
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC). The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
Getting more to the topic, do you know who the Almoravids are 'professor'?? You really should since you incessantly keep referring to their peoples.
Obviously The guy has no Idea where the Almoravids originated: The Almoravids are a Berber dynasty of Sahara, which lived between the current Senegal and south of the current Morocco.
The Lamtuna are a Berber tribe from the region of Mauritania-Western Sahara-Morocco-Algeria. They claim descent from Himyar, one of the South Arabian eponyms.[citation needed] The Almoravids, the founders of Marrakech in Morocco where they established their capital, originated from this tribe. [b]
The most powerful of the tribes of the Sahara near the Sénégal River was the Lamtuna, whose culture of origin was 'Wadi Noun' (Nul Lemta). They later came together as the upper leger River culture, which founded the city of Aoudaghost. They converted to Islam in the 9th century.
Modern day Southern Mauritaunians and Morroccans..
[b]The first manuscript known to have been written in Mauritania, according to Salem, is a collection of advice on how to apply the Almoravid law code, titled Al-Ishara fi Tadbir al-Imara, by Imam al-Hadrami, who died in 1097. It is now in the Abd al-Mu’min library in Tichi-So profesor can you explain why these Black West Africans possess a Manuscript on Almoravid Law, Does it anger you Porfessor that these Black West African had thousands of Libraries, established Architecture such as this:
While your Irish ancestors could barley master 50 Books. These Black West Africans were practicing Law, Astronomy, Surgery, Algebra, etc. While your Irish ancestors were living in dirt floor huts.
Does it anger you professor???
You make Texans look bad Professor....
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: The most powerful of the tribes of the Sahara near the Sénégal River was the Lamtuna, whose culture of origin was 'Wadi Noun' (Nul Lemta). They later came together as the upper leger River culture, which founded the city of Aoudaghost. They converted to Islam in the 9th century.
This is so confusing because didn't the cities of Walata and Aoudaghost have cultures similar to the Ghana and Mali empires? Or Walata did anyway. Both cities important trading centers on the southern part of the desert
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quote: Im not advocating that all the blacks were slave soldiers but it was highly likely I mean why pay an Army when you can use highly traind slaves at a time when Slave soldiers were the norm in Muslim Societies. If it helps alot of the White Soldiers such as the Slavs in Al-Andalus were slave soldiers.
Folks, look at how this boy continues his quest to perpetuate eurocentric falsehoods and race fantasy as actual facts. Your dick gets on hard off of this type of stuff doesn't it?
Just like most racialists and people who believe in a bogus racial hierarchy such as yourself.
And whats also funny is that he says:
"If it helps alot of the White Soldiers such as the Slavs in Al-Andalus were slave soldiers."
As if he is trying to throw anyone who will call him out for his tired pathetic race mythology. Its the same "well there white people that were slaves, but it was the Slavic people". Even in trying to deflect from their own craziness, they still reflect the dementia that is racialism. Notice how they will never claim that the English, French, or Germans were slaves. It violates their crazy lunatic race hierarchy beliefs.
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Jari-Ankhamun wrote: ------------------------------------- Included black slaves, Murabitun deserters, and elite Ghuzz Turkish archers (Nicolle, 1988). Almohads made even more use of war drums than the Murabitun. Almohad infantry formed similarly to the Murabitun: a front rank with long spears, a second with javelins and spears and a third of slingers. -------------------------------------
Your dismissed Jari-Ankhamun. Nobody is believing your white pseudohistory. Notice its the patented tactic of fictionalizing the "blacks" as the slaves.
It just goes to show just how pathetic the mind of Jari-Ankhamun is.
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quote: Im not advocating that all the blacks were slave soldiers but it was highly likely I mean why pay an Army when you can use highly traind slaves at a time when Slave soldiers were the norm in Muslim Societies. If it helps alot of the White Soldiers such as the Slavs in Al-Andalus were slave soldiers.
quote: Im not advocating that all the blacks were slave soldiers but it was highly likely I mean why pay an Army when you can use highly traind slaves at a time when Slave soldiers were the norm in Muslim Societies. If it helps alot of the White Soldiers such as the Slavs in Al-Andalus were slave soldiers.
posted
^^^^ Let me remove my ladder and adress this SWINE EATING TROLL. There were Black Slave Soldiers in Al-Andalus. Get over it and stop crying. First off Slave Soldeirs were not American Slaves, they had alot more rights and could achieve high positions in the society. Fatimid Egypt is a good example of this, if you knew anything you would know this you swine eating yellow tooth English peice of Dog ****.
If it helps alot of the White Soldiers such as the Slavs in Al-Andalus were slave soldiers."
As if he is trying to throw anyone who will call him out for his tired pathetic race mythology. Its the same "well there white people that were slaves, but it was the Slavic people". Even in trying to deflect from their own craziness, they still reflect the dementia that is racialism. Notice how they will never claim that the English, French, or Germans were slaves. It violates their crazy lunatic race hierarchy beliefs. Posts: 2119 | Registered: Jan 2008 | IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bitch swine eating rat, Did you not see what I posted that White Slaves were used in Al-Andalus.?? Does this make you sad, little bitch?? Also.. Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.
Im still waiting for Fawal to adress that and you can let it sink in too, Your Pink Swine eating Whore Women were enslaved in great numbers and you little pigs could do nothing but live in fear. You are nothing but Trash...Now Get off my mother fucking dick Punk ass BOI!! You been shooting shots my way for way too long old Bitch ass boi!!
Stop trying to cause diversions swine...
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
There were slave soldiers throughout the Islamic world some of whom were Turkish, Asian, European(slavic) and African. That has nothing to do with the fact that the primary invaders of Spain were made up of African blacks who were not slaves.
Posts: 8900 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: There were slave soldiers throughout the Islamic world some of whom were Turkish, Asian, European(slavic) and African. That has nothing to do with the fact that the primary invaders of Spain were made up of African blacks who were not slaves.
And where have I ever disagreed?? Argyle is just trying to get us to argue over something I never implied. I never said all the blacks were slaves in Al Andalus I said there was a large number of Slave Soldiers as compared to paid soldiers, and many of them were black, berber and slav. The Almoravids were not Slaves, the Berbers under Ibn Ziyad were not Slaves, The traders and intellectuals from Morocco, Mauritaunia, and Ghana were not Slaves. Why let a troll ruin this tread?
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Doug just wanted to say sh!t. He couldn't give up the opportunity to let us know he knows stuff. lol
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Jari-Ankhamun wrote: ----------------------------- The traders and intellectuals from Morocco, Mauritaunia, and Ghana were not Slaves. -----------------------------
You sick pile of garbage. So now you are trying to dichotomize back into your patented it was all the dumb "negroids" that were slaves. Why don't you just go ahead and be a man, and say it outright who you believe these black slaves were and where they came from.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doug M wrote: ---------------------------- There were slave soldiers throughout the Islamic world some of whom were Turkish, Asian, European(slavic) and African. That has nothing to do with the fact that the primary invaders of Spain were made up of African blacks who were not slaves. ----------------------------
Jari-Ankhamun has been doing this crap for years. Its amazing the difference between your post and Jari's. Jari is hellbent on making people whom he calls "negroes" as the world's slaves.
While your post shoots the eurocentric fantasy of negro slaves and non-negros as free down in flames.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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Here are the salient components of this thread, "Fawal". You should address the issues at hand, neurotic punk. As for being an "Afrocentrists" (substantiate that with my past posts), I'm as much as your ancestral mother, who was sucking African cock.
You can decide on whether he was some Samuel L Jackson-equivalent belonging to the middle ages, some post man, or an African slave. Either way, the ancestry is there and you can't deny that at all.
Oh and please don't try to debate. I crushed your illiterate ass last time and it will happen again. The "man", who cannot cite sources and fails to use appropriate sources. Historians describing and measuring human diversity, welders practicing thyroid surgery and what not.
PS: Why not attack Explorer, who maintains a very similar position as myself?
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: "believd to be" "could be" "or" ??????????
another supposition. This is why you guys get your facts screwed up all the time.
Science doesn't use absolute language, troll. Even economists understand that. I guess this lack of education deficiency plays a role.
I'll get the paper. Makes sense, though considering similar trends with sickle cell.
Samples:
quote: The population sample consisted of 80 unrelated patients selected from different regions of Morocco. The diagnosis of b-thalassemia was based on clinical presentation of thalassemic features, further supported by relevant hematological data, as well as raised HbA2 levels in heterozygous family members. Blood samples were collected from patients during their attendance for blood transfusion in six major hospitals located in the different cities of the country, namely Rabat, Casanblanca, Tangier, Larache, Al-Hoceima, and Oujda.
The _29 (A-G) mutation is believed to be of Sub-Saharan African origin and is specially frequent in Black Americans (Gonzalez-Redondo et al., 1991). Its presence in Morocco could be explained by migration during the Almoravid dynasty (1055–1130 AD) or through the caravan routes.
GENETIC TESTING Volume 12, Number 4, 2008 Molecular Basis of b-Thalassemia in Morocco: Possible Origins of the Molecular Heterogeneity
Naturally, as uniparental DNA [particularly mtDNA] shows that the west Sahelian Tamasheq (Tuareg) groups have more affinity with "sub-Saharan" west Africans than they do with coastal northwestern Imazighen groups; west Saharan Imazighen groups were found to be intermediate between coastal northern Imazighen and the non-Imazighen groups of the Sahel and "sub-Saharan" west Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: You give me six lines from a 1997 study and have the nerve to offer that as some kind of evidence. every time you post your IQ drops a point.
Err, I uploaded the study several times. The fact you lack the faculty to even read the study makes me question why you'd want me to cite it.
The irony is that your institution does not provide you access with these papers. You are a professor, are you not? I am provided access through many avenues, by the way.
XCOPY
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by fawal: [qb] @ Bob_01 [QUOTE][...].
[...].
quote:Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC).
The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
[...]
Dishonest American troll. Start learning how to go beyond mere googling.
quote:Skin sections showed particularly good tissue preservation, although cellular outlines were never distinct. Although much of the epidermis had already separated from the dermis, the remaining epidermis often was preserved well (Fig. 1). The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of ****Negroid origin.**** In the dermis, the hair follicles, hair, and sebaceous and sweat glands were readily apparent (Fig. 2). Blood vessels, but no red blood cells, and small peripheral nerves were identified unambiguously (Fig. 3). The subcutaneous layer showed loose connective tissue fibers attached to the dermis, and fat cell remnants were observed. To evaluate the influence of postmortum tissue decay by micro-organisms, the samples were tested for the presence of fungi using silver staining. Fungi were observed in some samples and were widespread in both epidermis and dermis. The molecular preservation of the antigen determinants, due to tissue preser- vation, determines the accuracy of the immunohis- tological stains. Depending on the rehydration
Dated approx 1550-1080BC (New kingdom) "All sections were prepared in the Pathological Institute of the Ludwig-Maximilians-Universitat, Munchen, Germany. "
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: No Bass, it does not prove anything at all. You can always tell a rookie. they get all excited over one piece of data and are unable to look at the exact meaning of words. In other words, it says what you want it to say.
So please to us what the passage means Mr Professor, since you say it means something different from what the Bass posted. The gene is of sub-Saharan origin.
Philosopher King Hammer didn't respond to the passage to this because he thought the passage was yours. I guess because it didn't have quotes around it - or something.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: You morons find a study with a qualified conclusion. This means the people who did the study admitted by their qualifiers(might be, could indicate etc) that the study was not meant to be seen as concrete information. You take that study and just accept it as fact without a single alternative point of view to offer. This is why you folks come up with crazy points of view that will never be mainstream.
Why not give us "6 lines" from any 1997 -2010 study showing the alternative point of view.
As if there are any.
If u'd stop pretending to be Philosopher King u'd perhaps discover that - No nothing! But one never knows with hammered people.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: But concerning "blacks" ancient Ghana was sophisticated enough do you think it is possible that they and other "Sudanese" people were pulling the strings here and contributed greatly to the skills, technologies ect. in Spain? Some scholars actually claim that the Almoravids had much of their success because of the slaves and loot they supposedly took from invading the lands of the south. This is fascinating because it shows that soldiers and wealth from the south were essential. European colonialists would be especially keen in distorting this period of history by distorting and mistranslating the texts and everything
Markellion, why are you saying the same thing over and over again? Nobody is debating you.
LOL. I've noticed Markellion does this on every site on the subject of Moors or Arabs.
This is the first time I've ever heard of the Almoravids being composed of "slaves" from south of Senegal. It is inappropriate to speak of Mande and other groups that took part in the Almoravid invasions as slaves first of all.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] I thought it was explained to you before 'professor' that in science suppositions are based on probability which is further based on evidence. The more evidence the higher the probability until a general theory is arrived. Which is more than we can say about any findings that show Egyptian or Nile Valley civilization being the product of non-Africans or some "caucasians".
Okay, how's this for more definite?...
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC). The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
Getting more to the topic, do you know who the Almoravids are 'professor'?? You really should since you incessantly keep referring to their peoples.
Hammered doesn't care who the Almoravids are. He is only trying to get a response from us and some respect.
The Almoravids were mainly Aulamidden (Lamtuna) Tuareg now centered in Niger. Lower caste Tuareg smiths to whom much of the craftmanship of the Moors was probably due are of Nilo-Saharan origin related to Teda Tibbu-Krit or Ikaradan groups.
The Hassaniyya looking man sitting down in your picture is probably of predominantly Arab origin. Many Tuareg, Hassaniyya and Trarza of Mauritania are the same Moors who are described in the 18th century were dragging European blue eyed Christian slaves through the desert. Many other concubines came from the Ottoman Turkish (Balkan) world. They are thus more mixed therefore than other black Africans.
Hassaniyya claim descent from the Sulaym or Maqil the well known black Arabians who came across North Africa. The fact that they and especially high classed "Moors" - a name for the the Hassaniyya and Trarza in Mauritania and elsewhere- are today "a shade lighter" than Mande and other black Africans speaks to the number of white slaves they have been trading between Morocco and Mauritania and Senegal until recently. But, it certainly says nothing of what they looked like in the Almoravid 12th century and before.
This trade went on until the last century. See he 1902 book, The Moors: A Comprehensive Description by Budgett Meakin 1902 p. 138.
From the chapter entitled "Slavery among the Moors" which speaks of the white slave trade in Morocco - “Another way in which the Europeans have been frequently outwitted is by the importation of Circassian and other slaves and eunuchs from Turkey via braltar or Algiers in foreign vessels, usually entered as members of the family of their master. Notwithstanding the nominal prohibition of the trade in the Turkish Empire, there are houses on the Bosporus where young children are trained for the hareems by instruction in music and dancing, and even in English and French, as well as in the degrading arts by which the women of these lands endeavour to secure the favour of their lords...This is often the case with white concubines, who are in great demand, even if natives. Consequently white girls are frequently kidnapped, and in time of war openly sold, to be trained by dealers in this special article, but though, if report is to be credited, some do occasionally yield to the temptation to sell their own daughters by slave-mothers, such a proceeding is not only illegal, but in the highest degree abhorrent in native eyes.”
Aulamidden (Lamtuna) originate from coastal North Africa like most of the Sanhadja and Ketama. They are the Ethiopians mentioned in old Greek sources thought to have come from Canaan, i.e. Phoenicia. They are later called Mauri.
“Ephorus says the Tartessians report that Ethiopians overran Libya as far as Dyris [the Atlas Mountains] and that some of them stayed in Dyris, while others occupied a great part of the sea-board.” Lacus Curtius Strabo book I Chapter 2
The Tuareg and all true Berbers claim to have fled from the Kenaana or southern Arabian area during the time of Joshua or Moses or over 3,200 years ago after which time they took over what came to be called Egypt and Syria/Palestine and finally advanced to the Maghreb.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Lets go back to the post Bass put up to start this thread. Since Bass misrepresentd what the post actally said we have to conclude thst the question has not been answered. What Bass should have done is find several historians who have written extensively on the history of the Almmoreavids and use thaier information to try to establish their origins.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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Markellion, why are you saying the same thing over and over again? Nobody is debating you.
But you said this later in another thread
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
But the record of Islam makes it a love/hate relationship for Africans. They love parts because they see themselves in it and they hate parts because they see hatred and racism.
To be honest to the history of Islam one should not over glorify the role of Africans because that would down play the hatred and racism that has also played a part in that history as well.
Were you saying there was a great deal of racism in the Islamic world against "Africans"? If this is so then you should show the error of the things I have been saying because I've been talking about the influence of these same people in the Islamic world. How could they be discriminated against and be influential at the same time? Or maybe I'm not getting what your saying
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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