quote:Why do we view Native Americans' alleged primitiveness more positively than that of Africans?
Because they're no longer a threat. In the mind of the European racist the only good (fill in a pejorative for a particular non white group) is a dead (restate pejorative for particular ethnic group).
It also explains why Malcolm X hats and Tees are popular now while excoriating Rev Wright for speaking the same truths..
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: dana marniche wrote:
Don't you mean how pathologically situated skin color or "race" is, argyle?
After all they weren't doing the same thing to Huguenot and Scottish immigrants.
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: While it is definitely not true that Africans were totally uncivilized, I cannot help but notice there is a double standard with regards to different types of "primitive" peoples. For instance, Native Americans are commonly viewed as "noble savages" living in harmony with nature, yet Africans are stereotyped as evil ooga-booga primitives, even though both Native Americans and Africans had similar technological gaps to their European conquerors. Why do we view Native Americans' alleged primitiveness more positively than that of Africans?
I personally think it had to do with a lot of the Westerns that were made and the fact that Africans in the media National Geographic and in American movies wre definitely portrayed in a certain naked "ooga booga" - (as you say) way until recently. Even the Roots series though well intended had an "ooga booga" quality about it rivaling some of the Tarzan movies in that respect. American Natives on the other hand are portrayed well in the late period of American movie making (although they usually didn't use real natives until recently either).
After all most Americans only think sub-Saharan Africans have never lived in anything but huts today if not in the forest without shelter - even when there are millions living in well made attractive stone houses they've been accustomed to for thousands of years or else in modern Western-style homes.
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Truthcentric wrote: ------------------------------ Why do we view Native Americans' alleged primitiveness more positively than that of Africans? ------------------------------
You're the white POS. You tell us.
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^Unlike Africa, native American nations were still largely, if not completely neolithic. Metals were not used for tools or weaponry but only for ornamentation. So technically Africa was not on the same level as the Americas.
Truthcentric's comments highlight how ideology runs European stereotypes of Africans, no matter how many facts to the contrary they know about. Powerful medieval African economies were in fact more economically advanced than Europeans of the same era and were integrated into dominant global trade-networks that eluded Europeans. It was only after the breakdown of African (Moors) stronghold in the Iberian peninsula, and the ensuing power struggle and infighting in western Africa, that early European imperialist from the Iberian peninsula saw and took an opportunity to shift the pre-existing trade-network apparatus to their own advantage. Eventual succumbing to economic-strangling by colonialism was actually by and large responsible for any so-called "technological gaps" between many African nations and western European colonial nations in the colonial and post-colonial era rather than any pre-colonial condition.
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You have to understand that the Eurocentric judges other cultures by European standards. All cultures that resemble Europe(Esp. during the enlightenment) are deemed as civilized. So despite Africans having advanced states and Empires duing the Middle Ages compared to North Western Europe because they don't have a "Al-hambra" or a "Forbidden City" etc, they are deemed on the same level as Native Americans.
As far as the Native American V. African thing its a rather recent fad for Americans to glamorize and uphold the Native Americans as a Noble Savage. Most 1st hand accounts by Europeans wo encountered the Native Americans did not glamorize them, but portrayed them as savages. Its now that the Native Americans are no longer a threat that they are being glamorized.
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quote:Originally posted by Apocalypse: T-Rex wrote
quote:Why do we view Native Americans' alleged primitiveness more positively than that of Africans?
Because they're no longer a threat. In the mind of the European racist the only good (fill in a pejorative for a particular non white group) is a dead (restate pejorative for particular ethnic group).
It also explains why Malcolm X hats and Tees are popular now while excoriating Rev Wright for speaking the same truths..
LOL, I did'nt read your comment but I said the same thing more or less, its because the Native Americans are an impoverished, unheard, unseen group and no longer a threat the Europeans suddly admire them, back when the Cherokee, Lakota etc. were scalping their domes, you can bet your bottom Dollar whites were not praising the Natives as Noble"
On a side note its funny how the White Conservatives broke their necks trying to defame and call Rev. White anti-american but they were REAL Silent on the crazed white Preacher who told his congregation to pray that the children and wife President of the U.S.A lose their father...Amazing at the Hypocrisy.
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1) The invader whites slaughtered off the vast majority of the indigenous Americans to leave all that land and resources free for them, so they could afford to partially glorify the people they murdered after death. The so-called "Indian Wars" based on the slogan "A good Injun is a dead Injun" also served as the backdrop for all those films about so-called "Indian bravery"--hence the names for the resisters was "Indian Brave". But the game was always won by murderous whites who always ended up being "heoric".
2) Africans were held captive in the U.S. at the time--and still are[psychologically] to certain extent--so there had to be constant justification of their servile status.
3)The so-called "Indians" were seen by the whites as being "closer" phenotypically to themselves than Africans. So there was a bit more identification. Cf.: Bartolomo de Las Casas and his recommendation that Africans replace the Indians as slaves--after 100 years of enslavement by the Spaniards.
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quote:Truthcentric's comments highlight how ideology runs European stereotypes of Africans, no matter how many facts to the contrary they know about. Powerful medieval African economies were in fact more economically advanced than Europeans of the same era and were integrated into dominant global trade-networks that eluded Europeans. It was only after the breakdown of African (Moors) stronghold in the Iberian peninsula, and the ensuing power struggle and infighting in western Africa, that early European imperialist from the Iberian peninsula saw and took an opportunity to shift the pre-existing trade-network apparatus to their own advantage. Eventual succumbing to economic-strangling by colonialism was actually by and large responsible for any so-called "technological gaps" between many African nations and western European colonial nations in the colonial and post-colonial era rather than any pre-colonial condition.
This is absolutely correct. The standard of living of the average African at the dawn of the colonial period was in all likelihood much higher than that of the typical European of the time.
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quote:White anti-american but they were REAL Silent on the crazed white Preacher who told his congregation to pray that the children and wife President of the U.S.A lose their father...Amazing at the Hypocrisy.
Wow! A "man of god" actually said this? I didn't know about this incident but it does not surprise me.
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quote:Originally posted by Apocalypse: Jari wrote:
quote:White anti-american but they were REAL Silent on the crazed white Preacher who told his congregation to pray that the children and wife President of the U.S.A lose their father...Amazing at the Hypocrisy.
Wow! A "man of god" actually said this? I didn't know about this incident but it does not surprise me.
Im suprised you never heard of it, but It goes to show you how the conservative media avoided the subject like the plague.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIW27p4BI_g ^^^^^ Crazed fool, no wonder people have a low opinion of Xtians.
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posted
Interesting that the comments from ausar and alTakuri were for people to ignore the historical truth that I posted.
ausar, alTakuri what are your thoughts on slavery from regions outside of "west" Africa? If you have none? Why?
Also fascinating is how Ish Gebor has disappeared once he could not openly cling to his racialist loonery without it being seen as obvious race fantasy.
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Interesting that the comments from ausar and alTakuri were for people to ignore the historical truth that I posted.
ausar, alTakuri what are your thoughts on slavery from regions outside of "west" Africa? If you have none?
Also fascinating is how Ish Gebor has disappeared once he could not openly cling to his racialist loonery without it being seen as obvious race fantasy.
arglye, I am curious; do you intentionally act like a buffoon? Or is this just who you are?
This has been an intellectual thrashing brought to you by ME
Antarah was born in Najd (the northern Arabian Peninsula) , He was the son of Shaddād, a well respected member of the Arabian tribe of Banu Abs, his mother was named Zabaibah, an Ethiopian woman, whom Shaddad had enslaved after a tribal war. The tribe neglected Antara at first, and he grew up in servitude. Although it was fairly obvious that Shaddad was his father, his dark skin made it easier to classify him among the slaves. However Antara claimed attention and respect for himself by his remarkable personal qualities and courage in battle, excelling as an accomplished poet and a mighty warrior. When the tribe needed his assistance to fend off another tribe in battle, Shaddād acknowledged Antara as his son, and granted him freedom.
Antarah fell in love with his cousin Abla, and sought to marry her despite his status as a slave. To secure allowance to marry, Antarah had to face challenges including getting a special kind of camel from the northern Arabian kingdom of al-No'man Ibn al-Munthir Ibn Ma' al-Sama'.
Antarah took part in the great war between the related tribes of Abs and Dhubyān, which began over a contest of horses and was named after them the war of Dāhis and Ghabrā. He died in a fight against the tribe of Tai.
POET, SOLDIER, AND GREAT CHIVALROUS FIGURE OF THE EAST (d. A.D. 615)
THE MOST RENOWNED WARRIOR among the Greeks was Achilles the greatest poet, Homer. Antar is the Achilles and the Homer the East combined. What Roland is to the French, what Siegfried is to the Germans, what St. George is to the English, that Antar is to 335,000,000 souls of the Mohammedan world. In the literature of the East he is known as "Abul Fouaris" (the Father of Heroes).
Gottheil says, "Even in the cities of the Orient today, loungers over their cups can never weary of following the of this black son of the desert, who in his person unites the virtues of his people, magnanimity and bravery with the gift poetic speech." Few started lower in life than Antar; few, if any, have higher in the esteem and affection of those who once them. He was born of a slave mother in the midst of one of proudest of all peoples--the Bedouins, horsemen and of the desert, who pride themselves to this day on the purity their descent from Ishmael, son of Abraham and Hagar, and their famous Arabian horses. Moreover Antar was extraordinarily ugly. He was bleary-eyed, harsh-featured, and had long, drooping ears." He was also hairlipped and black. But his eyes! Ah! From them flashed "sparks of fire." His father, wealthy Shaddad, chief of the Abs tribe, ignored him completely, while his mother hated him and sent him off to mind the cattle to get him out of her sight.
But, like David of the Scriptures, Antar was destined to flash into fame. One day, when he was only fifteen, war broke out between his tribe and a neighboring one over the possession of a famous mare named Jirwet. Antar entered the battle as a common soldier; he emerged from it the hero of the day. Thanks to his skill, the enemy was signally defeated. His father, proud of him now, set him free. He became the protector of his tribe, its mainstay and leader. When other tribes reproached the Abs because they had a Negro as their chief, Antar declared that he had a sword that was ready to prove that though he was lowly born his ancestry was as good as theirs. From this point onwards his life, like that of the Seven Champions of Christendom, is so much interwoven with chivalry and romance that it reads more like fable than fact.
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- He was an Arab born to an Arabian tribe in the Arabian Peninsula, not a black african. Though apparently his mother was an Ethiopian slave, at the most that would make him a half-caste, or mixed so this doesn't count.
Face the facts, why is it in every post you always look OUTSIDE your homeland? Never do you look at your real roots in sub-sahara africa, instead you try to steal the heritage of all other races...now the Arabs? So sad.
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Al-Jahiz was born in Basra in 776 CE to a poor family which is believed to be of Abyssinian descent. He was the author of Arabic literature, biology, zoology, Islamic philosophy and Mutazili theology. His father died when al-Jahiz was a few months old. Despite the family’s poverty, al-Jahiz’s mother was able to send her son through the local Quranic school. He received his nickname, Jahiz, (Jahiz: projected cornea) because he had a bulging eyes. Life in Basra provided al-Jahiz with many learning opportunities even after he left school. Basra was the home of Mu’talazite, a sect of Muslim school of thought, and al-Jahiz listened to scholars at the local mosque, informally learning from some of the greatest thinkers of the time. His mastery of the Arabic language and unusual intelligence won his admittance to Mutazili school of thinkers. Al-Jahiz achieved some fame and moved to Baghdad, where he continued to work as an advisor to the Khalifa. He suffered ill health in his later part of his life and moved to Basra where he died in December of 868 CE. al-jahiz-capture
Al-Jahiz was the author of many books; Kitab al-Hayawan (The book of Animals) is one of his famous work. It is an encyclopedia of seven volumes of poetic descriptions of varieties of animals. Though, it is by no means a book of zoology, but it has description of a very keen study of animals and insects. He was the first person who studied the influence of the environment on animals and developed an early theory of evolution. Al-Jahiz considered the effects of the environment on the likelihood of an animal to survive, and thus he became the first person to describe the struggle for existence. His idea on the struggle for existence is not very different from Darwin’s idea on this subject. In the Book of Animals he has summarized it like this; Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring.
The above statement is so close to Darwin’s theory of evolution, made more than a thousand years before Darwin. Indeed it seems that Darwin took al-Jahiz’s idea as a base and formulated his “theory of evolution” in a more scientific way in context of nineteenth century scientific knowledge.
Al-Jahiz gave the idea of the food chain, saying all life depend on each other, even the hunting animal can become the part of food chain which he argued keeps a balance in the nature and maintains a proper ratio between the animals. He made an attempt to classify the animals in a linear series and arranged them in groups having marked similarity and then subgroups. He thus sowed the seed of scientific classification of animals.
He was also an early adherent of environmental determinism and explained how the environment can affect the physical characteristics of the inhabitants of a certain area of the world. He used his theories on natural selection and environmental factor to explain the origins of different human skin colors, particularly black skin, which he believed to be the result of the heat and humidity.
Al Jahiz is considered to be one of the most renowned and stylish writers of the Arabic literature. He is credited for establishing the rule of Arabic prose writing by collecting previously written anecdotes and giving his own instruction on the proper use of language and the importance of eloquence. He was really a naturalist, a satirist, a humorist, a theologian and a philosopher. He is believed to have written 350 books during his life span from all walks of knowledge and wisdom of his time. Most of his books have been lost only thirty have survived. His book: Kitab al Bayan wa al Tabyin which literally means (eloquence and demonstration), is one of his famous works, in which he approached various subjects, such as epiphanies, rhetorical speeches, sectarian leaders, princes, as well as giving a sardonic treatment to foolish and crazy people.
Al-Jahiz was a great man who proved that being dirt poor is no hindrance to seek higher education, even more than twelve century ago. His book Kitab al Hayawan had great influence on Muslim and European scientists like Lamark and Darwin. for the dedications ... (100 of 348 words)
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posted
Do you consider Europeans born outside of Europe?? Antar WAS BLACK Son, No Arab will claim he was not black. Also if Im not mistaken Antar is considered along with other Black Poets as the "Black Crows" in Muslim Circles(If Im not mistaken).
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: - He was an Arab born to an Arabian tribe in the Arabian Peninsula, not a black african.
Antar was the result of Enslaved and Subjugated Rape. He was a slave and disgraced and not considered part of the Tribe. HE was not an Arab bor was respect as an Arab. He was nothing more than a Black man proving himself like the Millions of Mulatto blacks who You White Europeans Lynched, Castrated, and Harrassed.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: - Though apparently his mother was an Ethiopian slave, at the most that would make him a half-caste, or mixed so this doesn't count.
Face the facts, why is it in every post you always look OUTSIDE your homeland?
Antar is considered to be black. If Im not mistaken in Muslim Circles he along with other blacks are referred to as the "Black Crows"...again I might be mistaken.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: - Never do you look at your real roots in sub-sahara africa, instead you try to steal the heritage of all other races...now the Arabs? So sad.
Blacks are not just contained to One region in Africa. Non Sequitor. Once again Antar was the result of Rape. His father did not claim him nor did his tribe at first. Antar was not and I believe still not seen as "Arab" due to his Slave Statue and Rape origin.
You Lose, More to Come.
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Of the non royal population of Egypt, probably one man is known better than all others. So successful was Imhotep (Imhetep, Greek Imouthes) that he is one of the world's most famous ancients, and his name, if not his true identity, has been made even more famous by various mummy movies. Today, the world is probably much more familiar with his name than that of his principal king, Djoser. Imhotep, who's name means "the one that comes in peace". existed as a mythological figure in the minds of most scholars until the end of the nineteenth century when he was established as a real historical person.
He was the world's first named architect who built Egypt's first pyramid, is often recognized as the world's first doctor, a priest,. scribe, sage, poet, astrologer, and a vizier and chief minister, though this role is unclear, to Djoser (reigned 2630–2611 BC), the second king of Egypt's third dynasty. He may have lived under as many as four kings. An inscription on one of that kings statues gives us Imhotep's titles as the "chancellor of the king of lower Egypt", the "first one under the king", the "administrator of the great mansion", the "hereditary Noble", the "high priest of Heliopolis", the "chief sculptor", and finally the "chief carpenter".
Of the details of his life, very little has survived though numerous statues and statuettes of him have been found. Some show him as an ordinary man who is dressed in plain attire. Others show him as a sage who is seated on a chair with a roll of papyrus on his knees or under his arm. Later, his statuettes show him with a god like beard, standing, and carrying the ankh and a scepter.
Imhotep may have been born in Ankhtowë, a suburb of Memphis early in Egyptian history. However, other classical writers suggested that he was from the village of Gebelein, south of ancient Thebes. His father might have been an architect named Kanofer. His mother could have been Khreduonkh, who probably belonged to the province of Mendes, and he may have had a wife named Ronfrenofert but none of this is by any means certain. As a commoner at birth, he rose through the ranks quickly due to his genius, natural talents and dedication.
As the High Priest of Heliopolis, he would have been one of the chief priest of Lower (northern) Egypt. Even though Egypt's capital may have been located at Memphis, it is likely during this period that Heliopolis was recognized as the religious capital of Egypt.
As a builder, Imhotep is the first master architects who we know by name. He is not only credited as the first pyramid architect, who built Djoser's Step Pyramid complex at Saqqara, but he may have had a hand in the building of Sekhemkhet's unfinished pyramid, and also possibly with the establishment of the Edfu Temple, but that is not certain. The Step Pyramid remains today one of the most brilliant architecture wonders of the ancient world and is recognized as the first monumental stone structure.
Imhotep's best known writings were medical text. As a physician, Imhotep is believed to have been the author of the Edwin Smith Papyrus in which more than 90 anatomical terms and 48 injuries are described. He may have also founded a school of medicine in Memphis, a part of his cult center possibly known as "Asklepion, which remained famous for two thousand years. All of this occurred some 2,200 years before the Western Father of Medicine Hippocrates was born.
Sir William Osler tells us that Imhotep was the:
"..first figure of a physician to stand out clearly from the mists of antiquity." Imhotep diagnosed and treated over 200 diseases, 15 diseases of the abdomen, 11 of the bladder, 10 of the rectum, 29 of the eyes, and 18 of the skin, hair, nails and tongue. Imhotep treated tuberculosis, gallstones, appendicitis, gout and arthritis. He also performed surgery and practiced some dentistry. Imhotep extracted medicine from plants. He also knew the position and function of the vital organs and circulation of the blood system. The Encyclopedia Britannica says, "The evidence afforded by Egyptian and Greek texts support the view that Imhotep's reputation was very respected in early times. His prestige increased with the lapse of centuries and his temples in Greek times were the centers of medical teachings."
Along with medicine, he was also a patron of architects, knowledge and scribes. James Henry Breasted says of Imhotep:
"In priestly wisdom, in magic, in the formulation of wise proverbs; in medicine and architecture; this remarkable figure of Zoser's reign left so notable a reputation that his name was never forgotten. He was the patron spirit of the later scribes, to whom they regularly poured out a libation from the water-jug of their writing outfit before beginning their work.
Imhotep is one example of the "personality cult" of Kemet, whereby a learned sage or otherwise especially venerated person could be deified after death and become a special intercessor for the living, much as the saints of Roman Catholicism. About 100 years after his death, he was elevated as a medical demigod. In about 525, around 2,000 years after his death, he was elevated to a full god, and replaced Nefertum in the great triad at Memphis. In the Turin Canon, he was known as the "son of Ptah". Imhotep was, together with Amenhotep, the only mortal Egyptians that ever reached the position of full gods. He was also associated with Thoth, the god of wisdom, writing and learning, and with the Ibises, which was also associated with Thoth.
We are told that his main centers of worship were in the Ptolemaic temple to Hathor atf Dier el-Medina and at Karnak in Thebes, where he was worshipped in conjunction with Amenhotep-Son-of-Hapu, a sanctuary on the upper terrace of the temple at Deir el-Bahari, at Philae where a chapel of Imhotep stands immediately in front of the eastern pylon of the temple of Isis and of course, at Memphis in Lower (northern) Egypt, where a temple was erected to him near the Serapeum. At saqqara, we are told that people bought offerings to his cult center, including mummified Ibises and sometimes, clay models of diseased limbs and organs in the hope of being healed.
He was later even worshipped by the early Christians as one with Christ. The early Christians, it will be recalled, adapted to their use those pagan forms and persons whose influence through the ages had woven itself so powerfully into tradition that they could not omit them.
He was worshiped even in Greece where he was identified with their god of medicine, Aslepius. . He was honored by the Romans and the emperors Claudius and Tiberius had inscriptions praising Imhotep placed on the walls of their Egyptian temples. He even managed to find a place in Arab traditions, especially at Saqqara where his tomb is thought to be located.
Imhotep lived to a great age, apparently dying in the reign of King Huni, the last of the dynasty. His burial place has not been found but it has been speculated that it may indeed be at Saqqara, possibly in an unattested mastaba 3518.
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I guess then you consider someone who is half-white half-chinese to be white...
If you are mixed race, you are NO race. Hence on census forms across Europe, if you are mixed you have to tick the ''mixed'' box. You can't choose the race your parents are.
Antar was racially Arab/Black, which means his heritage was mixed. He was not Black.
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This is a small statue of Kha, architect to the 18-Dynasty Pharoah Amenhotep III Nebmaatre (ca. 1390-1352 B.C.E.). It is made of wood, and looks now substantially like it did in antiquity: the only coloring are traces of paint inside the glyphs down the center, but it originally wore a garland of flowers around its shoulders.
This statue shows Kha to be an honored servant, rather than a nobleman. He is standing with his left foot forward, a typical pose for officials, but is not carrying any of the tokens of office usually carried by officials; instead, he has his hands empty and palms facing back in a gesture of supplication. His wig is very fine, but his clothes are a simple kilt without the elaborate pleated overshirt favored by the nobility at this time.
The statue, maybe commissioned by the Pharaoh as a sign of respect for Kha, contains a pious wish for Kha's prosperity in the afterlife, in the strip of hieroglyphs down the center of the kilt. The text wishes for him prrt nbt Hr wdHw ny imn nsw nTrw n kA ny Hry st aA xa maA-xrw Everything which comes forth upon the offering table of Amun, King of the Gods, for the ka of Great Overseer of Places, Kha, true-of-voice (i.e. justified before Osiris).
Egyptian names were meaningful words (eg. Amenhotep = Amun is satisfied). Kha's name comes from the word to appear xai to rise (said of the Sun), to appear in glory (said of a king or god). In writing, at least, it becomes a name simply by replacing the scroll determinative with a "peron" determinative. In Kha's case, images/khatut/kha, the person is holding a flail, denoting authority.
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You're failed attempt to accept Antar as black is due to your racist assertion that because of his Arab blood he was a good poet. The Arabs at this time were mainly illiterate Nomads. Antar was a hated subjugated slave whose Dark Skin was a daily reminder of his Rape Origins and inferior birth.
Modern Day Muslims and Arabs consider Antar to be black. Antar overcame his status to become a great poet. Stop with the racist tendencies and get over yourself.
Al-Jahiz is enough to prove you wrong. While you're Tin Isle ancestors were throwing Sewage into your Drinking supply and while the Greatest building your Tin Isle Ancestors created was a strawhut, and the Greatest Literature contained to Irish Monks, Al Jahiz was developing "The Book of Animals" in the 9th century, which would later insipire "Origin of the Species".
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Mulattos = blacks?
I guess then you consider someone who is half-white half-chinese to be white...
If you are mixed race, you are NO race. Hence on census forms across Europe, if you are mixed you have to tick the ''mixed'' box. You can't choose the race your parents are.
Antar was racially Arab/Black, which means his heritage was mixed. He was not Black.
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quote:Originally posted by CastratedMentally: so typical.
The ancient egyptians were not black.
Then what do you call these Egyptian royals??
^ Are they white? LOL
quote:Stop mucking around, do you have anything or not?
Your thread topic question was answered on the VERY FIRST PAGE, you nitwit! The answer was YES Sub-Saharan Africans did have civilizations and lots of them for that matter. When are YOU going to stop mucking around and address this salient FACT for a change??
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I wonder if Alwaadberry can give any further info on the "Black crows" of Arab Poetry...
The Arab Crows (أغربة العرب)are the famous Arab poets of the past who were so dark-skinned that their color resembled the color of a crow. Some of the Arab Crows lived in Pre-Islamic times and others lived during the period between Pre-Islamic times and Islamic times. Ibn Mandhour says in his book Lisan Al-Arab that the Arab Crows are Antarah, Khafaf ibn Nadba from the tribe of Sulaym, Abu Umair ibn Al-Hubaab from the tribe of Sulaym, Sulaik ibn Sulaka, Hisham ibn Uqba ibn Abi Mu'eet, Abdellah ibn Khaazim from the tribe of Sulaym, Umair ibn Abu Umair ibn Al-Hubaab from the tribe of Sulaym, Hammaam ibn Mutarraf from the tribe of Taghlib, Muntashir ibn Wahb Al-Baahili, Matar ibn Awfaa Al-Mazini, Taabbata Sharra, and Al-Shanfara. Many people today make the mistake of assuming that since these "Arab Crows" are so black-skinned, they must be descended from "Africans". For example, read what was said about Khaffaf ibn Nadba from the tribe of Sulaym:
قال خفاف بن ندبة - وهي أمه، وكانت حبشية..." "...
"Khafaf the son of Nadba - and Nadba was an Ethiopian slave-girl - said..."
This is what they say about Khafaf's mother, but the reality is his mother was a pure Arab from the tribe of Bani Al-Harith ibn Ka'ab. Ibn Sa'ad says in his book Al-Tabaqaat:
خفاف بن عمير
ابن الحارث بن شريد واسمه عمرو بن رباح بن يقظة بن عصية بن خفاف بن امرئ القيس بن بهثة بن سليم وكان شاعرا وهو الذي يقال له خفاف بن ندبة وهي أمة بها يعرف وهى ابنة الشيطان بن قنان سبية من بني الحارث بن كعب ويقال إن ندية كانت سوداء وشهد خفاف فتح مكة مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وكان معه لواء بني سليم الأخر.
"Khafaf the son of Umair the son of Al-Harith the son of Amru (Shuraid) the son of Rabbah the son of Yaqidha the son of Asiyya the son of Khafaf the son of Imr Al-Qais the son of Bahtha the son of Sulaym. He was a poet and was called Khafaf the son of Nadba and Nadba is a slave-girl and Khafaf was known by her. She (Nadba) is the daughter of Al-Shaytan the son of Qanan and she was captured from the tribe of Bani Al-Harith ibn Ka'ab. It is said that Nadba was black-skinned. Khafaf was present with the Prophet (SAWS) during the conquest of Mecca and he carried the flag of the tribe of Sulaym."
Ibn Hajar says in his book Al-Isaaba Fi Tamyeez Al-Sahaaba:
خفاف بن عمير بن الحارث بن الشريد
بن رياح بن يقظة بن عصية بن خفاف بن امرئ القيس بن بهثة بن سليم وهو المعروف بابن ندبة بنون وهي أمه قال بن الكلبي شهد الفتح وكان معه لواء بني سليم وكان شاعرًا مشهورا وقال الأصمعي شهد حنينًا وثبت على إسلامه في الردة وبقي إلى زمن عمر وقال أبو عبيدة أغار الحارث بن الشريد يعني جد خفاف هذا على بني الحارث بن كعب فسبي ندبة فوهبها لابنه عمير فولدت له خفافا فنسب إليها قال المرزباني هي ندبة بنت أبان بن شيطان بن قنان بن سلمة.
Khafaf the son of Umair the son of Al-Harith the son of Shuraid the son of Rabbah the son of Yaqidha the son of Asiyya the son of Khafaf the son of Imr Al-Qais the son of Bahtha the son of Sulaym. He was a famous poet. Al-Asma'ee said that he was present at the battle of Hunain and that he remained a Muslim during period of apostasy and he was still alive during the reign of Umar. Abu Ubayda said that Al-Harith the son of Shuraid - the grandfather of Khafaf - raided the tribe of Bani Al-Harith ibn Ka'ab and captured Nadba and gave her to his son Umair and she gave birth to Khafaf through Umair and Khafaf was called the son of Nadba. Al-Mirzbaani says that she is Nadba the daughter of Abaan the son of Al-Shaytan the son of Qanan the son of Salama. Bani Al-Harith ibn Ka'ab is a large Arab tribe and Al-Harith ibn Ka'ab is the son of Amru the son of 'Illa the son of Khalid the son of Midhhaj.
Read what is said about another Arab Crow - Shanfara:
ويعني اسمه (غليظ الشفاه ) ، ويدل أن دماء حبشية كانت تجري فيه
"And his name means 'thick-lipped', which shows that Ethiopian blood ran through his veins."
Read what another person said is a reason that he hopes that Al-Shanfara is not from the Arab tribe of Shihr:
انه كان اسودا ونحن جميعا لآدم ولا فضل لاحد على احد الا بالتقوى ولكنه كان كافرا وفوق هذا من اصول افريقية اما من ناحية الاب او الام والعرب ليس فيهم السواد الوارد في الشنفرى
"...Because he (Al-Shanfara) was black-skinned - we are all from Adam and no one is any better than the next except according to piety - but he was an unbeliever and to make matters worse, he was of African origin either from his father or from his mother and the Arabs are not black-skinned like Al-Shanfara was described".
This is what they say about Al-Shanfara, but the truth of the matter is that his father was from the pure Arab tribe of Al-Azd and his mother was from the pure Arab tribe of Fahm. Read what Al-Shanfara said about himself:
"انا من خيار الحجر بيتاً ومنصباً ** وامي ابنة الاحرار لو تعرفينها"
"I am from the best of the clan of Hujr (a clan of the tribe of Al-Azd) in origin and status. And my mother is the daughter of the freemen - if you only knew her!"
There is also the Arab Crow Taabbata Sharra. His real name is Thaabi the son of Jaabir the son of Sufyan the son of 'Umaythil the son of 'Udayy the son of Ka'ab the son of Hazin the son of Tamim the son of Sa'ad the son of Fahm the son of Amru the son of Qais 'Ailan the son of Mudar the son of Nizaar. His mother - Umayma - was from the Bani Qain branch of the Arab tribe of Fahm the son of Amru the son of Qais 'Ailan the son of Mudar the son of Nizaar.
As you can see, Taabbata Sharra, too, was a pure Arab from the pure Arab tribe of Fahm.
Not all the Crows were Africans but does it matter, these people were Jet black In color, probably Darker than many Africans. I don't see how it matters if these people were Arabs or Africans??
In my opinion Arabs became Literate AFTER AFRICANS so its racist to assume that Arabs are somehow more civilized than Africans.
Seems Alwaad and Dana are onto something some of the "Crows" were pure Arabs.
Posts: 8809 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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I wonder if the "Crows of the Arabs" goes back to the time of early Hebrew literature. The `or*biym feeders of Eliyahu, were they birds or Jordanian Arabs as black as ravens? Note the Hebrew root עֹרֵבPosts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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^^^^ Good insight and considering that the crows predate the Prophet Muhammed, at least Antar, their legacy might go back further when Arabs were more Oral rather than literate.
Posts: 8809 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I wonder if the "Crows of the Arabs" goes back to the time of early Hebrew literature. The `or*biym feeders of Eliyahu, were they birds or Jordanian Arabs as black as ravens? Note the Hebrew root עֹרֵב
I was just going to mention that theory until you did. I first read about it in David Goldenberg's book The Curse of Ham, where he claims "crow" could have been a poetic euphemism for the black natives of area you speak of.
LOL This reminds me, if the Arab poet Antar was described and depicted as so black, how could he possibly be "mulatto"?? But I guess Castrated-Mind has scurried away from this thread like the roach he is and seek cover from (ignore) it. Posts: 26348 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^^^^ Ive wondered that too. He was Jet black so how was he a Mulatto. Then again when we in the west think of Mulatto's we think of a White and Black parent but I know many "Hispanic" Mulattos and they tend to be darker...LOL one of my friends is Half Hispanic and Black and I swear you can't tell. He is the same shade as me(My Dad is a Mulatto). So maybe an Arab Mulatto was similar to a Hispanic Mulatto, Antar's dad was probably Dark to Light brown like a Hispanic.
Posts: 8809 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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^ Or it's possible that his Arab ancestry is equally as black since again Arabia is right next door to Africa.
Posts: 26348 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Antar's tribe was northern Arab and he was discrinated because of his skin color.
Posts: 8809 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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The leader of one Arab invasion of Egypt/North Africa was black skinned. Neither of his parents were dark. The husband took his wife's birth of a black as evidence of adultery but she swore to knowing no other man. This is a case of atavism that I think Muhammed said, to save a marriage, shows up from time to time among non-black Arabs.
Abu Zeid, the black child of non-black parents, was the leader of the Yemini banu Hilal invasian.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
They have nothing to do with Hebrew or Yehudi folklore. The black Crows are Poets from pre-islamic to islamic periods telling by there names and the narratives in arabic.
Pre-islamic culture is the viod of color racism. Antar is a pre-islamic poet and in arabic they never use the term Ethiopian only habashi when they associate antars origins. According to Arabic sources Antar is considered to be of habashi origin.
Pre-Islamic arabia was totally about blackness. If u can read arabic and find some of the poetry of that time it was very pro-black.
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Isn't it funny how Afrocentric's look for every civilization out of Africa to prove their Achievements.
They claim almost every civilization under the sun to make up for their lack of it.
You are stereotyping afro-centrists. You are thinking of fringe afro-centrists, and their views are not supported by the majority of posters on this forum.
Other than that, you will have to take up your issues with people whom you disagree with
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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Ancient Egyptians are same as modern day Egyptians they certainly weren't Negroid Black its amazing how African Americans have such obsession with Egyptians when these ppl are originally from West Africa and have nothing to do with Egypt.
quote:Isn't it funny how Afrocentric's look for every civilization out of Africa to prove their Achievements.
They claim almost every civilization under the sun to make up for their lack of it.
You are stereotyping afro-centrists. You are thinking of fringe afro-centrists, and their views are not supported by the majority of posters on this forum.
Im really not just looking at the posts on here shows how Afrocentrics think.
They claim civilizations as far as China and Japan how silly is that? and label anything with dark skin as black race they look beyond africa to fill their insecurities.
In a way they feel that by labeling things black they have claim to someone else's civilization and culture that they were not part of.
Posts: 39 | Registered: Apr 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Crystal_Bullocks: Ancient Egyptians are same as modern day Egyptians...
Not according to historical records and bio-anthropology. You do realize that immigrants from Asia and Europe have altered Egypt's populations.
quote:..they certainly weren't Negroid Black...
"Negroid" is a racial construct based on stereotypes and nothing else factual. But yes as indigenous Africans the Egyptians were certainly black.
quote:..its amazing how African Americans have such obsession with Egyptians when these ppl are originally from West Africa and have nothing to do with Egypt...
Despite what you think, most African Americans don't give a damn about Egypt. What is known is that Egypt as an African culture had a lot more in common with West African culture than today's modern 'Arab' culture.
quote:
Yes. We all know how Nefertiti's bust looks like. What you fail to realize is that the features of this bust is no different from many East African women who live in northeast Africa today. Plus, it's likely the original paint that was her dark skin color has faded off.
And what of these portraits with their skin paint better preserved??
quote:Im really not just looking at the posts on here shows how Afrocentrics think.
Again, as Sundjata says you are stereotyping. Most Afrocentrics don't think or act like this. Their focus is on AFRICA, hence the name Afrocentric! Also Egypt is IN Africa and its ancient pharaonic culture is very much a part of it!
quote:They claim civilizations as far as China and Japan how silly is that? and label anything with dark skin as black race they look beyond africa to fill their insecurities.
In a way they feel that by labeling things black they have claim to someone else's civilization and culture that they were not part of.
What you fail to realize is centuries before there was any 'Afrocentrism' Western Europeans DID THE EXACT SAME THING-- they would claim every civilization outside of Europe as being due to some advanced "caucasoid" race! Look at all the past anthropological papers. Every advanced culture from Nigeria to the Polynesia and between was attributing to caucasians and Egypt especially!! So while there are only FRINGE Afrocentrics who do this today, you must realize that MAINSTREAM Western (Eurocentric) scholars have been doing this for nearly 200 years!!
Posts: 26348 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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And Eurocentrics claim all civilization as far away as China and Japan how silly is that? and label anything with light skin and pointy nosed as white race they look beyond europe to fill their insecurities.
In a way they feel that by labeling things white they have claim to someone else's civilization and culture that they were not part of.
Btw I take issue with labeling of Afrocentrist as insecure kooks an Afrocentrist is one who look at Africa from the inside who looks at African development and culture in Africa first and foremost,African migrations and settlements out side Africa may come into play from time to time,but that is a side issue, now claiming every dark skinned populous as black nah not really only when warranted such as those who self describe themselves as such and we know they are woolly haired,broad featured very dark-skinned people that exist out side the continent but are not Africans but we give em the dapp because they are black. http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pav&action=display&thread=633&page=1 Go here for more^
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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"When they [the first European navigators of the end of the Middle Ages] arrived in the Gulf of Guinea and landed at Vaida, the captains were astonished to find the streets well cared for, bordered for several leagues in length by two rows of trees; for many days they passed through a country of magnificent fields, a country inhabited by men clad in brilliant costumes, the stuff of which they had woven themselves! More to the South in the Kingdom of Congo, a swarming crowd dressed in silk and velvet; great states well ordered, and even to the smallest details, powerful sovereigns, rich industries, -- civilized to the marrow of their bones. And the condition of the countries on the eastern coasts -- Mozambique, for example -- was quite the same.
"What was revealed by the navigators of the fifteenth to the seventeenth centuries furnishes an absolute proof that Negro Africa, which extended south of the desert zone of the Sahara, was in full efflorescence which the European conquistadors annihilated as far as they progressed. For the new country of America needed slaves, and Africa had them to offer, hundreds, thousands, whole cargoes of slaves. However, the slave trade was never an affair which meant a perfectly easy conscience, and it exacted a justification; hence one made of the Negro a half-animal, an article of merchandise. And in the same way the notion of fetish (Portuguese feticeiro) was invented as a symbol of African religion. As for me, I have seen in no part of Africa the Negroes worshipping a fetish. The idea of the 'barbarous Negro' is a European invention which has consequently prevailed in Europe until the beginning of this century.
"What these old captains recounted, these chiefs of expeditions -- Delbes, Marchais, Pigafetta, and all the others, what they recounted is true. It can be verified. In the old Royal Kunstkammer of Dresden, in the Weydemann colection of Ulm, in many another 'cabinet of curiosities' of Europe, we still find West African collections dating from this epoch. Marvellous plush velvets of an extreme softness, made of the tenderest leaves of a certain kind of banana plant; stuffs soft and supple, brilliant and delicate, like silks, woven with the fiber of a raffia, well prepared; powerful javelins with points encrusted with copper in the most elegant fashion; bows so graceful in form and so beautifully ornamented that they would do honor to any museum of arms whatsoever; calabashes decorated with the greatest taste; sculpture in ivory and wood of which the work shows a very great deal of application and style.
"And all that came from cuntries of the African periphery, delivered over after that to slave merchants, . . .
"But when the pioneers of the last century pierced this zone of 'European civilization' and the wall of protection which had, for the time being raised behind it -- the wall of protection of the Negro still 'intact' -- they found everywhere the same marvels which the captains had found on the coast. to be continued . . . Posts: 7361 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006 | IP: Logged | alTakruri
"In 1906 when I penetrated into the territory of Kassai-Sankuru, I found still, villages of which the principle streets were bordered on each side, for leagues, with rows of palm trees, and of which the houses, decorated each one in charming fashion, were works of art as well.
"No man who did not carry sumptuous arms of iron or copper, with inlaid blades and handles covered with serpent skin. Everywhere velvets and silken stuffs. Each cup, each pipe, each spoon was an object of art perfectly worthy to be compared to the creations of the Roman European style. But all this was only the particularly tender and iridescent bloom which adorns a ripe and marvellous fruit; the gestures, the manners, the moral code of the entire people, from the little child to the old man, although they remained within absolutely natural limits, were imprinted with dignity and grace, in the families of the princes and the rich as in the vassals and slaves. I know of no northern people who can be compared with these primitives for unity of civilization. And the peaceful beauty was carried away by the floods.
"But many men had this experience: the explorers who left the savage and warrior plateau of the East and South and the North to descend into the plains of the Congo, of Lake Victoria, of the Ubangi: men such as Speke and Grant, Livingstone, Cameron, Stanley, Schweinfurth, Junker, de Brazza -- all of them -- made the same statements: they came from countries dominated by the rigid laws of the African Ares, and from then on they penetrated into the countries where peace reigned, and joy in adornment and in beauty; countries of old civilizations, of ancient styles, of harmonious styles.
"The revelations of fifteenth and seventeenth century navigators furnish us with certain proof that Negro Africa, which extended south of the Sahara desert zone, was still in full bloom, in the full brilliance of harmonious and well-formed civilizations. In the last century the superstition ruled that all high culture of Africa came from Islam. Since then we have learned much, and we know today that the beautiful turbans and clothes of the Sudanese folk were already used in Africa before Muhammed was even born or before Ethiopian culture reached inner Africa. Since then we have learned that the peculiar organization of the Sudanese states existed long before Islam and that all of the art of building and education, of city organization and handwork in Negro Africa, were thousands of years older than those of Middle Europe. to be concluded ... Posts: 7361 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006 | IP: Logged | alTakruri
Member Member # 10195
Rate Member posted 21 February, 2011 10:14 PM concluding.
quote: "Thus in the Sudan old real African warm-blooded culture existed and could be found in Equatorial Africa, where neither Ethiopian thought, Hamitic blood, or European civilization had drawn the pattern. Everywhere when we examine this ancient culture it bears the same impression. In the great museums -- Trocadero, British Museum, in Belgium, Italy, Holland, and Germany -- everywhere we see the same spirit, the same character, the same nature. All of these separate pieces unite themselves to the same expression and build a picture equally impressive as that of a collection of the art of Asia. The striking beauty of the cloth, the fantastic beauty of the drawing and the sculpture, the glory of the ivory weapons, the collection of fairy tales equal to the Thousand and One nights, the Chinese novels, and the Indian philosophy.
"In comparison with such spiritual accomplishments the impression of the African spirit is easily seen. It is stronger in its folds, simpler in its richness. Every weapon is simple and practical, not only in form but fantasy. Every line of carving is simple and strong. There is nothing that makes a clearer impression of strength, and all that streams out of the fire and the hut, the sweat and the grease- treated hides and the animal dung. Everything is practical, strong, workmanly. This is the character of the African style. When one approaches it with full understanding, one immediately realizes that this impression rules all Africa. It expresses itself in the activity of all Negro people even in their sculpture. It speaks out of their dances and their masks; out of the understanding of their religious life, just as out of the reality of their living, their state building, and their conception of fate. It lives in their fables, their fairy stories, their wise sayings and their myths.
"And once we are forced to this conclusion, then the Egyptian comes into the comparison. For this discovered culture form of Negro Africa has the same peculiarity."
Leo Frobenius Histoire de la Civilisation Africaine translated by Back and Ermoat Paris: Gallimard, 1936 6th edition page 56 http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004109;p=1 Followed by Jeri WhatBox Ausar myself Kenndo Ish Gabor Sundjata TruthAndRights but of course you by passed all of that info and still at 7 pages you asked for the same fking info, ignorance but with a willingness to learn I can deal with willful ignorance pisses me off to no end.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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