posted
It appears that the Near East had considerable influence. But I don't believe the predynastic Egyptians were necessarily from the near East, even though it shows that they had a definite connection with those people.
What ancient evidence is there to suggest any kind of foreign influence?
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Well, they had cold adapted limbs, just like West Asians, but they adapted to the hot wheather of Egypt the second they entered it. Just like the birds in my study. So to answer your question, they were originally Kakazooids from the middle east, the negroids came later during the 25th dynasty.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^Exactly Look on page 34 where they say they refute peer reviewed research that shows that limb elongation occurs during prenatal stages of development in humans. They showed PC graphs that document that the uterus (womb) of the mother can be hot enough to produce limb elongation during the fetal stage, if the mother migrates to a hot environment. The uterus knows.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
We know limb elongation can be influenced by long term genetic adaption. But it can also be influenced to some degree by an in-situ adaption to surrounding temperatures in live individuals, as the study proves. And by your own sources, the ancient Egyptians showed to be nowhere near extremely heat-adapted as compared to even modern inhabitants of Egypt.
This is not what the thread is about, so quit side-stepping the issue and let's get on with it.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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^The difference between the most cold adapted, and the most tropically adapted babies. The first three embryos are excavated stillborn babies from dynastic Egypt, the last embryo dates to modern Egypt. You can see the differences in limb elongation, which corroborates what my study says about higher limb index values for modern Egyptians, compared to the Ancients.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Sometimes simple is good. Simple most often gets at the heart of the matter.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Khufu: Don't waste your time entertaining simple minded individuals.
Ah, this must mean you have nothing to offer.
I have plenty to offer but it gets real tiresome providing the same information and answers month after month, year after year on the same ol' lame subjects.
Posts: 98 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
During state formation, outside gene flow was confined to lower Egypt. While Upper Egyptian culture became dynastic civilization. Several scholars have noted that Sudanese were very influential, and given the evidence of Nilotic presence in early state formation, we know this to be probable. The only real Near Eastern connection would be certain agricultural techniques, but there was neither a mass presence of Near Easterners in Egypt nor a significan cultural presence. As a matter of fact, Egyptian cultural customs can be traced to the Sahara. Indeed, prehistoric populations moved into the Nile Valley from the Sahara, shortly after, the return of desert conditions coincided with the onset of Egyptian civilizations. We also have evidence for west African influence, as they also had a Saharan connection. For example, pottery from Mali is as old as the Nile Valley or older, and it may diffused northwards. Also, the Benin haplotype and M. Africanum have been found in predynastic remains, E-M2 found in Egypt at significant frequencies as well.
I won't bother to cite all of the sources referenced above until you wish to have an open-minded discussion and realize when you're wrong.
quote:Originally posted by A Simple Girl: It appears that the Near East had considerable influence. But I don't believe the predynastic Egyptians were necessarily from the near East, even though it shows that they had a definite connection with those people.
What ancient evidence is there to suggest any kind of foreign influence?
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz': E-M2 found in Egypt at significant frequencies as well.
Legacy of the slave trade, not an indigenous lineage to Egypt.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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posted
^Nope, not true. It reaches highest frequencies in upper Egypt where the slave trade had little presence. Keita (2005) also pointed out the problems with associating E-M2 with the Bantu expansion. Furthermore, it is not unlikely it is more ancient given the other evidence of west African influence.
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
E-M2 is not found in indigenous Sudanese nor Ethiopians.
All Egyptian E-M2 carriers are either descendants of slaves or recent West African immigrants (presumably Hausa).
What were the E-M2 sub-clades, those are telltale signs of recent western admixture.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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posted
^E-M2 can not be the result of the slave trade because of the aforementioned reason I gave you. Which is why it is never associated with the slave trade, but with the Bantu expansion. And you claim of it not being found amongst Sudanese is just as retarded:
Haplotype IV, designating the M2/PN1 subclade, as noted, is found in high frequency in west, central, and sub-equatorial Africa in speakers of Niger-Congo—which may have a special relationship with Nilosaharan—spoken by Nubians; together they might form a superphylum called Kongo-Saharan or Niger-Saharan (see Gregersen 1972, Blench 1995), but this is not fully supported. The spatial distribution of p49a,f TaqI haplotypes in the geographically-widespread speakers of Nilosaharan languages has not been fully characterized, but the notable presence of haplotype IV in Nubians speaking the Eastern Sudanic branch is interesting in that this subgroup is in the Sahelian branch of speakers, whose ancestors may have participated in the domestication of cattle in the eastern Sahara (Ehret 2000, Wendorf and Schild 2001). Sometimes haplotype IV (and the M2 lineage) is seen as being associated with the “Bantu expansion” (2000-3000 bp), but this does not mean that it is not much older, since expansion and origin times cannot be conflated. Haplotype IV has substantial frequencies in upper Egypt and Nubia, greater than VII and VIII, and even V. Bantu languages were never spoken in these regions or Senegal, where M2 is greater than 90 percent in some studies. — Keita, 2005.
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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Perahu mentioned slave trade, which doesn't automatically infer Bantu or Bantu expansion, at all, even on the Western side. The Arabs traded for and obtained slaves from the area comprising Ghana / Ouagadou, the Mali Empire, and Songhai. That doesn't always infer they were from there, but at various times due to misfortunate events even men of some status, such as intellectuals owning huge libraries ended up as slaves in either trade direction.
Now, given certain factors like the finding of pharaohs with Benin sickle cell (coastal West African variant) where you'd expect it to be the Iran-India variant and a number of studies agree with this -- I'd say E-M2 could've been there since ancient times.
Also a study finds that much of the "African" ancestry in Jews given the average age infers they got it in their genesis -- that means in ancient times. What makes Perahu definitely wrong (again) fo sho is that this study used a only a Nigerian sample to represent "Africa". This is nothing new, I've seen in the news a long time ago before where this white Jewish lady found out she had (an) African relative(s) living in the Western heart of Africa who shared with her great great etc. grandparents.
None of this answers the girl's question though, which I think is cultural. If she means from outside the nations borders I can think of plenty of Nile Valley and even possibly "Saharan" influences, but I think the question of Middle Eastern influences is an interesting one.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Hassan et al. 2008 sampled various Sudanese groups from all over the country and did not find any E-M2 in the indigenous samples, only a couple of Hausa (West African immigrants) were found to carry it.
Those E-M2 Nubians probably have recent West African admixture (slave trade), they are not indigenous. Their sub-clade of E-M2 would clearly show this.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Neither of you are correct.
Perahu mentioned slave trade, which doesn't automatically infer Bantu or Bantu expansion, at all, even on the Western side. The Arabs traded for and obtained slaves from the area comprising Ghana / Ouagadou, the Mali Empire, and Songhai. That doesn't always infer they were from there, but at various times due to misfortunate events even men of some status, such as intellectuals owning huge libraries ended up as slaves in either trade direction.
As ausar demonstrated to that Mao character previously, the slave trade was little to non existant in upper Egypt. So my point was that it isn't the result of the slave trade/it isn't solely the result of the slave trade. It is however associated with the Bantu expansion which is why I brought it up. As noted by Keita though, it could be much older than that.
quote:Now, given certain factors like the finding of pharaohs with Benin sickle cell (coastal West African variant) where you'd expect it to be the Iran-India variant and a number of studies agree with this -- I'd say E-M2 could've been there since ancient times.
I agree, that is what I was trying to clue Perahu in on.
quote:None of this answers the girl's question though, which I think is cultural. If she means from outside the nations borders I can think of plenty of Nile Valley and even possibly "Saharan" influences, but I think the question of Middle Eastern influences is an interesting one.
It started when Perahu responded to my post when I used it to reinforce the influences on Egypt.
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Hassan et al. 2008 sampled various Sudanese groups from all over the country and did not find any E-M2 in the indigenous samples, only a couple of Hausa (West African immigrants) were found to carry it.
Different studies give different result when they sample different people you know.
quote:Those E-M2 Nubians probably have recent West African admixture (slave trade), they are not indigenous. Their sub-clade of E-M2 would clearly show this.
If you had comprehended Keita's statement you would not be saying this
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:You can see the differences in limb elongation, which corroborates what my study says about higher limb index values for modern Egyptians, compared to the Ancients.
^Although it would be interesting to know which sites were used, common sense suggest that the sample cannot pertain to modern Egypt.
The intralimb values ares simply too high, even higher than some predynastic samples. It cannot be argued that this intralimb index value is caused by the Sudanese samples, because the Egyptian sample is slightly smaller than the Sudanese sample in specimen nrs, 70 and 73 respectively. Given the top charting intralimb indices of the combined sample, it is impossible that the combined mean of Egyptians and Sudanese is caused by the weight of the latter. We also see in the graphs documenting the entire body that the Egyptian sample consistently groups in between the two Sudanese samples (fig. 10, 9, 7, 6), and (most of the time) with pygmies before they cluster with Sudanese (fig. 10, 9, 7).
If people want to suggest that such positioning brings to mind the like of Mubarak and Qadafi, it might be better to leave the discussion alone, because it would mean that we're talking to people who are either pulling our leg, or people who simply do not have the mental capacity to perform basic reasoning.
Posts: 9 | From: Your mama | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
^That's a nice mention about black-topped pottery, but it doesn't say anything about older or contemporary examples from abroad. The example I gave is not from either Egypt or Nubia. It as at least as old if not older than anything found in either areas.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:but it doesn't say anything about older or contemporary examples from abroad.
Now I know your agenda. You just want to find some connection to Egypt from outside sources. I highly doubt you even care about the actual culture. You just want some non-African source for their civilization
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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As far as western African slavery in Egypt I have the following to contribute:
Most of the slaves that came into Egypt were primarily from southern Sudan. Certainly around Darfur to Asyut there was a small trickle of western African slaves but most of them were glided at various stations across Middle Egypt. This means most slaves white or black had their testes removed so its doubtful these slaves left much offspring.
The Nubians never really utilized western African slaves. If they had any slaves it was primarily southern Sudanese Dinka and Nuer groups.
Migration to Upper Egypt in the modern era is relatively rare except for a few bedouins from the western desert who intermingle with the local Sa'idi people. Upper Egypt is the poorest section of Egypt and very isolated. Most Sai'idi people don't like Sudanese or western Africans very much. Hausa immigrants are not numerous in Egypt except for a few in Cairo.
Be aware also that most black African female slaves in Egypt had low fertility rates. Arab writers during the middle ages commented upon their phenomenon. Why they had low fertility rates I donot know.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Calabooz': The only real Near Eastern connection would be certain agricultural techniques, but there was neither a mass presence of Near Easterners in Egypt nor a significan cultural presence.
posted
^That link you posted is saying the exact same thing I said- i.e., that certain agricultural techniques can be traced back to the Near East. Yet there was not demic diffusion of farming and Nile Valley inhabitants adopted said agricultural techniques into an indigenous foraging strategy. Not to mention northeast Africans with sub-Saharan morphological traits diffused into the Near East during the Mesolithic. So the Near Eastern farmers would have descended from Africans in my opinion
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote: Originally posted by Calabooz': The only real Near Eastern connection would be certain agricultural techniques, but there was neither a mass presence of Near Easterners in Egypt nor a significan cultural presence.
Indeed. QUOTE:
"..the early cultures of Merimde, the Fayum, Badari Naqada I and II are essentially African and early African social customs and religious beliefs were the root and foundation of the ancient Egyptian way of life." --(Source: Shaw, Thurston (1976) Changes in African Archaeology in the Last Forty Years in African Studies since 1945. p. 156-68. London.)
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Depending on the way the ceramics is burnt, it can be black or red.
Black ceramics originates in Dacia, being of great importance in the pre-Roman period. In order to obtain it, the paste is subjected to an incomplete burn. The pots are burnt in a conoid shaped pit, up to 1.5 meters deep. Next to this pit there�s another one, linked by a small canal where the fire is burning. The pots are put in the first pit. When they are well heated and become red, they are covered with a thick layer of moist clay, also used to fill the small canal. Thus, the burning process continues without oxygen and the pots become grey or black.
The black ceramics is still manufactured today in Romania and is also known as �Marginea pottery� (named after a village in the Suceava County).
Red ceramics, obtained by burning it in an oxidizing system, borrowed some elements from the Roman culture. To obtain this color, the pots are dipped after drying off into a coloring substance obtained from a special clay (called �huma�) mixed with water. Then the pots are hand-painted.
The red ceramics (enameled or not) can be found on 90% of the Romanian territory.
Much too young to be a precursor for ancient Sudanese red topped pottery.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Wishful girl introduces the pot in her post as Predynastic Egyptian, and then goes on to say in another post it is European. Where is the specific link and description of the photo Wishful girl?
Wishful girl, why should the reversed not be entertained, given the high levels of Egypto-Nubian E-M78 in Balkan territory, and the fact that black topped pottery evolved clearly from identical earlier pottery, that only lacks the black color?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Black-topped pottery continued into later cultures of southeastern Europe that were still contemporary or older than Egyptian black-topped ware.
___________________________________________ The surface of the vessels belonging to the fine pottery category are well burnished, some of them being black-topped fired. Black ware and black-topped ware have been found in significant quantities. The chromatic effect of the black-topped pottery is obtained as a result of controlled firing,
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
I do credit ancient supra-Alpine Europeans for the culture they did have and the fine pottery pieces of their manufacture.
While still researching for the exact provenance of the posted work I came across black-topped ware that dates to ~4000BCE in Alba Iulia
quote:The pottery fragments were mostly found in close complexes of the pit-houses, pits and dwelling surface type. Most vessels belong to the black and black-topped ware. The main shapes are biconical bowls and amphorae; the pedestals have cherryred slip. Painted decoration, applied on the vessels before firing, is made with red, on a reddish or orange background.
Simona Varvara et al. MULTI-DISCIPLINARY INVESTIGATION OF THE NEOLITHIC POTTERY FROM ALBA IULIA - LUMEA NOUA (ROMANIA) SETTLEMENT
I have no idea what Alba Iulia black-topped pottery looked like or that the posted work is from Alba Iulia.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I'm not saying there is a cultural link between southeastern Europe and Egypt based only upon black-topped ware. This is just one of many things the two have in common. I just thought I would start with the black-topped pottery.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: @ SimpleGirl
Why are you witholding the information given where you got the thimbsize version of the black-topped pottery that you posted.
Surely the exact provenance is cited there.
Actually I just lifted the image from there but it doesn't give much information. I can give you the link but it was real slow for me uploading the images. Click on it if you like. Maybe it will load better for you. Let me go find it.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
I don't care about any of the above. I would like to know the exact provenance of the piece you posted and wrote about as quoted below. Please provide it, thank you.
quote:Originally posted by A Simple Girl: The example I gave is not from either Egypt or Nubia. It as at least as old if not older than anything found in either areas.
It is from the time of the Starcevo culture of southeastern Europe.
posted
The Nile variety dates to 5500-3100 BCE while the Dneiper one dates to 4400-3600 BCE. So if any influence is involved it was from the former to the latter.
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: Wishful girl introduces the pot in her post as Predynastic Egyptian, and then goes on to say in another post it is European. Where is the specific link and description of the photo Wishful girl?
Wishful girl, why should the reversed not be entertained, given the high levels of Egypto-Nubian E-M78 in Balkan territory, and the fact that black topped pottery evolved clearly from identical earlier pottery, that only lacks the black color?
quote:Originally posted by A Simple Girl: The black-topped pottery of predynastic Egypt. Was it influenced from elsewhere?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
This bowl with feet is from predyastic Egypt. I don't believe the idea was unique only to Egypt. You can find other examples in the link I provided.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [QB] The Nile variety dates to 5500-3100 BCE while the Dneiper one dates to 4400-3600 BCE. So if any ifluence is involved it was from the former to the latter. [QUOTE]
I'm not sure you'll find any black-topped ware dated before 4000 BCE in Egypt. Black-topped ware was well in use before that time period in southeastern Europe.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
I actually have no interest in this thread, as this subject has been discussed before. But my interest was piqued by A Simple Girl's post; "Egypt's Earliest Agricultural Settlement Unearthed - 5,200 B.C. And the subsequent mentions of Mesopotamia.
This reminds me of the breathless exclamations of the Jews in Israel when they uncovered a 400,000 year old human tooth. "Modern man evolved in Israel."
It seems a simple notion to me, but it seems others have problems understanding it - so I will repeat it. "The earliest FOUND, has no necessary relationship with "THE FIRST" of THE EARLIEST".
That is why all available evidence must be combined, in order to have any hope of creating a reasonably accurate historical scenario.
Since the conversation revolves around possible cross-cultural influences; It would probably be good to know the distances between the relevant sites.
Cairo Egypt (ancient Memphis & Heliopolis) to Baghdad Iraq (ancient Sippar) 802 miles. Cairo Egypt to Ankara Turkey (ancient Hattusas) 698 miles. (Depending on urgency - humans can cover 30-50 miles a day). Average time between any of those cities - about 20 days. Point being - THERE WAS CONSTANT INTERCHANGE BETWEEN THEM - AND THE INDUS TOO!
As to their level of development:
Note this structure at Göbekli Tepe - 11,500 B.C. Which is a hilltop sanctuary built on the highest point of an elongated mountain ridge about 15km northeast of the town of Şanlıurfa (Urfa) in southeast Turkey.
Note the finely carved pillars to support the roof. Does it seem like Hunter Gatherer Nomads would have acquired the skills to do such work? What use would Hunter Gatherer Nomads have for such a structure? Hunter Gatherer Nomads do not store food, they move to find food, how would Hunter Gatherer Nomads feed themselves while building the site?
Calabooz' This is a cave painting from Anatolia. I don't know about you, but he sure looks African to me!
A final thought: Forget the White mans breathless Bullsh1t - think for yourselves.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Where in Europe was there black-topped red ware before the 6000±400 years ago Alba Iulia ones?
quote: The earliest Neolithic ceramics in Eastern and Southeastern Europe, belonging to the Starcevo culture, has all the characteristics of double firing in proper kilns. How is one, then, to understand the reason why all other potteries in this area, starting from the late Neolithic to the end of the Late Iron Age, are without exception grey or black - when we know that from Roman times onwards all ceramics has been red?
Aleksandar Durman Early Neolithic pottery vs. the rest of prehistoric pottery.
Which leads us back to question of the age of the supplied pottery piece. Are its characteristics of shape and design neolithic or Roman?
quote:Originally posted by A Simple Girl:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: [QB] The Nile variety dates to 5500-3100 BCE while the Dneiper one dates to 4400-3600 BCE. So if any influence is involved it was from the former to the latter.
I'm not sure you'll find any black-topped ware dated before 4000 BCE in Egypt. Black-topped ware was well in use before that time period in southeastern Europe.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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