This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
Troll Patrol is saying there were no Noth Africans, people went into from the South
but the topic is Kabyle, not green period hunter gatherers even though I have been following him into his side track that is not dealing with the dry period of the thread topic
so stop cheerleading and sighing and contributing no content
The topic is Kayble and has not been covered that much on ES-it is not a topic on North Africans general
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Really? So where is it?
See this is your problem. You’re unable to comprehend what’s laid out in front of your eyes, then when you miss it or misunderstand, you throw out ad hominems and insults. Read my posts again. What you’re asking about is mentioned in my initial post you quoted, then in my reply to you, then a Third time in this last post you quoted.
For the fourth time:
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg: Some may have a larger population of people having one phenotype, but that doesn’t make them the “real” or “original” people, just that their population had the chance to increase faster than others (historical, environmental factors).
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
"And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
......
Pathetic, so I am going to ask you again. Where is it. Where did you write it?
You keep saying that one is not original this that blah blah....it's just your very one opinion, we are speaking of where did the population origins lie in the first place of those who entered the Magreb during the Holocene mid-Holocene. You are speaking of a classic time period.
I will repeat it once more for you, in the South. The Sahara-Sahel, is where the Tamazight originated. Proto-Berber originated in central-Sahara. I posted this by showing actual data on anthropological sites.
And is known as Lybico-Berber. This was long before any Vandal or whom ever invaded, assimilated or integrated.
This is the problem, you can't grasp, comprehend and accept.
Even when it's right in front of your eyes you can't see it, hmmm you don't read it. You brush it off as spam. Yet, your personal opinion should matter.
GTFOH
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
Troll Patrol is saying there were no Noth Africans, people went into from the South
but the topic is Kabyle, not green period hunter gatherers even though I have been following him into his side track that is not dealing with the dry period of the thread topic
so stop cheerleading and sighing and contributing no content
The topic is Kayble and has not been covered that much on ES-it is not a topic on North Africans general
thanks, lioness
No, what he is saying is that you try to falsely history, and make it into that Africans never entered Northern Africa, this of course as I say again is a lie.
And again, the ancient population from the Magreb came from the South, from the Sahara-Sahel. These people became the first settlers of Northwest Africa. Northeast is a different story. Thou there is a common denominator eventually which can be traced back to the similar root. Yes, also from the South.
This too was posted several times.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
And is known as Lybico-Berber. This was long before any Vandal or whom ever invaded, assimilated or integrated.
you realize that Lybia is on the North of the continent ?
You do realize that Lybico-Berber. Is rooted at central Sahara? Not the Southern part nor the Northern part of the Sahara, but in the middle. Central!
quote:The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region.
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2012 Feb;147(2):280-92. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21645. Epub 2011 Dec 20.
Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade: Uhh... I'm a newbie on here and lioness is a troll. It's not a debate. Most people on here are not against a debate, but if you do post you gotta be able to back it up. This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
If you feel lioness is making some valid points, you should expound on it and put forth info. Second, you dismiss Troll Patrol's posts but is he lying? Does he have sound info?
Simply listening to one side of the debate is not going to help.
I see your point, and I mostly agree. My problem is that this thread in fact is mostly "North Africans were always black Africans" spiel which I believe is false. What I’m doing is exactly that: looking at two sides of a debate.
I’m on your side (and Troll Patrol’s too but he’s unable to understand that) and I know that black Africans were the early inhabitants of North Africa until they were pushed south later on. But when there have been light-skinned Berbers for hundreds of years, how fair is it to say they’re not true Berbers?
I’m a black Canadian, first generation, so am I wrong to say that I’m Canadian because my parents only lived here for 40 years? That’s not right.
All I’m saying is we should recognize the diversity of North Africa. I’m a newbie too but I’ve read old threads on the forum before I joined. And I don’t necessarily say lioness is always trolling. She does at times post things from another perspective that some members don’t want to see just because it possibly shows blacks were not always dominant in all regions of Africa.
Since my first post here, I see that some specific members fail to look at things critically, and ignore any research that goes against what they believe, calling this “Eurocentric lies” or trolls. Example: I was called a Eurocentric white troll here only because I asked a question about the head of King Narmer. The fact that I asked the question of why some ignorant people would label it a 25th century fraud (which I specifically said was false) and what the story was behind that lie, some members jumped on me, just for looking for evidence against the lie.
And I never said anything Troll Patrol posted was wrong, just that he copy and pastes endless articles that it’s more of spamming than actually debating. Not everyone here does that but him.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Pathetic, so I am going to ask you again. Where is it. Where did you write it?
You're even more of an idiot than I thought. Again, must I repeat myself for the 5th time? Read my friggin first post on the second page!!! Are you blind?
And you just totally disregarded the rest of my post where I repeated that I agree with you. And you ignored my response to your question on the books I own. I see that I'm wasting my time talking to you.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: And after Iberomaurusian and Capsian settlements and human remains evidence we had the the Garamantes
again, see location
quote: This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact.
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2012 Feb;147(2):280-92. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21645. Epub 2011 Dec 20.
Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.
Minor error, proto Berber is called Berber-Chadic.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Pathetic, so I am going to ask you again. Where is it. Where did you write it?
You're even more of an idiot than I thought. Again, must I repeat myself for the 5th time? Read my friggin first post on the second page!!! Are you blind?
And you just totally disregarded the rest of my post where I repeated that I agree with you. And you ignored my response to your question on the books I own. I see that I'm wasting my time talking to you.
You ask me if I'm blind? No I am not.
Are you?
Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb, mid-Holocene (ca. 4000 BP).
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
all this an attempt to steer the thread off Kabyle,, same PC map we've already seen him post 27 times before, spamming
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: all this an attempt to steer the thread off Kabyle
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Mid-Holocene (ca. 4000 BP) Africans vs Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE. And Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century.
No it's not an attempt, it's mere show and proof that the Tamazight are indigenous to Africa and the origin is in the South, Sahara-Sahel. That's all.
It also mere shows and proof that the demographic was a altered by foreign people which makes the modern day population segment of the Kabyle not as the ancient population.
The eventual goal is to understand who the ancient population was, isn't it? As I said before the Kabyle is just a subgroup.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
Troll Patrol is saying there were no Noth Africans, people went into from the South
but the topic is Kabyle, not green period hunter gatherers even though I have been following him into his side track that is not dealing with the dry period of the thread topic
so stop cheerleading and sighing and contributing no content
The topic is Kayble and has not been covered that much on ES-it is not a topic on North Africans general
thanks, lioness
It's better to post nothing at all, than to repeatedly post the wrong info/lies. Posts: 200 | From: Akahara | Registered: Aug 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
Troll Patrol is saying there were no Noth Africans, people went into from the South
but the topic is Kabyle, not green period hunter gatherers even though I have been following him into his side track that is not dealing with the dry period of the thread topic
so stop cheerleading and sighing and contributing no content
The topic is Kayble and has not been covered that much on ES-it is not a topic on North Africans general
thanks, lioness
No, what he is saying is that you try to falsely history, and make it into that Africans never entered Northern Africa, this of course as I say again is a lie.
And again, the ancient population from the Magreb came from the South, from the Sahara-Sahel. These people became the first settlers of Northwest Africa. Northeast is a different story. Thou there is a common denominator eventually which can be traced back to the similar root. Yes, also from the South.
This too was posted several times.
I'm a woman by the way Posts: 200 | From: Akahara | Registered: Aug 2012
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Mid-Holocene, see map, Capsian, Northern Algeria/Tunisia.
Then return to thread topic, Kayble, dry period Sahara
Yes, I have sen the map. Do tell, with whom do these cluster? See, you've answered your own question on the sudden skimming of the Neolithic Maghrebian population
Understand that the Fula and Tuareg are the ancient pastoralists of the Sahara region. In particular Northwest African repopulation.
quote: In the Sahara, population agglomeration is also evident in certain areas such as the Libyan Fezzan, which (albeit much later) also saw the emergence of an indigenous Saharan “civilization” in the form of the Garamantian Tribal Confederation, the development of which has been described explicitly in terms of adaptation to increased aridity (Brooks, 2006; di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003).
--Nick Brooks (2013): Beyond collapse: climate change and causality during the Middle Holocene Climatic Transition, 6400–5000 years before present, Geografisk Tidsskrift-Danish Journal of Geography, 112:2, 93-104
After the mid-Holocene we have sources from the Garamantes and such.
Garamantes are the suggested ancestors of the Tuareg.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
Troll Patrol is saying there were no Noth Africans, people went into from the South
but the topic is Kabyle, not green period hunter gatherers even though I have been following him into his side track that is not dealing with the dry period of the thread topic
so stop cheerleading and sighing and contributing no content
The topic is Kayble and has not been covered that much on ES-it is not a topic on North Africans general
thanks, lioness
No, what he is saying is that you try to falsely history, and make it into that Africans never entered Northern Africa, this of course as I say again is a lie.
And again, the ancient population from the Magreb came from the South, from the Sahara-Sahel. These people became the first settlers of Northwest Africa. Northeast is a different story. Thou there is a common denominator eventually which can be traced back to the similar root. Yes, also from the South.
This too was posted several times.
I'm a woman by the way
My bad, sorry. I looked at the avatar picture. And in rushing I took you for a male poster. Who is using the same image.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Garamantes are the suggested ancestors of the Tuareg. [/QB]
and we can see on the map they, like the Capsians, were Maghrebians and before both of them the Iberomaurusian even further North on the coast, now explain where the South fits in in that context
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon: I’m a black Canadian, first generation, so am I wrong to say that I’m Canadian because my parents only lived here for 40 years? That’s not right.
I see that you have the interlopers creed down pat. Clearly you feel that those Albinos in Ottawa are REAL Canadians, the defining authority that is.
Now lets turn that a bit, instead of asking that question of fellow interlopers, what say you go and find a native Canadian Indian and ask the question of them.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Garamantes are the suggested ancestors of the Tuareg.
and we can see they. like the Capsians were Maghrebians and both of them before them the Iberomaurusian even further North to the coast, now explain where the South fits in in that context [/QB]
As I have posted before, and will repeat for you again.
The Tuareg and Fula are well known pastoralists.
The South doesn't mean the Eastern part of the Sahara, but as well the Western part.
Hence the paper on Mauritania and West Sahara.
See, I don't like to repeat and explain the same thing over and over. This is why I simply cite and recite.
Because this seems more and more like a stupid joke, of acting ignorant and arrogant.
All the answers are and can be found in the anthropological papers I've posted. You claim to have read.
Remember this one?
quote: The ruins were discovered deep in the desert of Western Sahara The remains of a prehistoric town dating back 15,000 years have been discovered in the Moroccan-administered territory of Western Sahara. The Moroccan state media on Thursday said a team of scientists stumbled across the sand-covered ruins of the town Arghilas, deep in the desert of Western Sahara.
The remains of a place of worship, houses and a necropolis, as well as columns and rock engravings depicting animals, were found at the site near the northeastern town of Aousserd.
Significant find
The isolated area is known to be rich in prehistoric rock engravings, but experts said the discovery could be significant if proven that the ruins were of Berber origin as this civilisation is believed to date back only about 9000 years.
"It appears that scientists have come up with the 15,000-year estimate judging by the style of engravings and the theme of the drawings," Mustafa Ouachi, a Rabat-based Berber historian said.
Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa before Arabs came to spread Islam in the seventh century.
The population of Western Sahara, seized by Morocco in 1975 when former colonial power Spain pulled out, is mostly of Berber and Arab descent.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Pathetic, so I am going to ask you again. Where is it. Where did you write it?
You're even more of an idiot than I thought. Again, must I repeat myself for the 5th time? Read my friggin first post on the second page!!! Are you blind?
And you just totally disregarded the rest of my post where I repeated that I agree with you. And you ignored my response to your question on the books I own. I see that I'm wasting my time talking to you.
You ask me if I'm blind? No I am not.
Blind and dumb. You cherry-pick what you want to see and ignore the rest.
You're clearly incapable of reading what someone has to say or of conducting unbiased research.
I'm tired of arguing with an idiot over a topic I have no interest in. It's like talking to a child. I'm done.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Pathetic, so I am going to ask you again. Where is it. Where did you write it?
You're even more of an idiot than I thought. Again, must I repeat myself for the 5th time? Read my friggin first post on the second page!!! Are you blind?
And you just totally disregarded the rest of my post where I repeated that I agree with you. And you ignored my response to your question on the books I own. I see that I'm wasting my time talking to you.
You ask me if I'm blind? No I am not.
Blind and dumb. You cherry-pick what you want to see and ignore the rest.
You're clearly incapable of reading what someone has to say or of conducting unbiased research.
I'm tired of arguing with an idiot over a topic I have no interest in. It's like talking to a child. I'm done.
Hmmmm...what exactly did I cherry pic?
What exactly did I ignore?
Mid-Holocene (ca. 4000 BP) Africans vs Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE. And Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century?
You never had a solid argument in the first place. And no, you aren't wasting your time. Hence the screen name: Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor. And the lower bar: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM.
Bye,
Rif Tafarsit Ichebdanen Ibuqquyen Ait Wayagher Aith 'Ammarth Igzinnayen Themsaman Ait Tuzin Aith Sa'id Aith Wurishik Iqer3ayen. Ibdarsen Ait Bouyahyi Ait Tourish Iznassen Ayt Khaled Ayt Menquch Ayt Aâtiq Ayt Urimmech Chleuh Ait namann Ait Baha, Biougra, Bouzakern Tiznit Zimmur, Ait Ndhir, Ait Yusi, Ait Warayin, Iziyyan, Ait Imyill, Ait Mhand, Ait Massad, Ait Sukhman, Ihansalen, Ait Siddrat, Ait 'Atta, Ait Murghad, Ait Hadiddu, Ait Izdig, Ait 'Ayyash, Ait Saghrushshn Ihahan, Imtuggan, Iseksawen, Idemsiren, Igundafen, Igedmiwen, Imsfiwen, Iglawn, Ait Wawzgit, Id aw-Zaddagh, Ind aw-Zal, Id aw Zkri, Isaffen, Id aw-Kansus, Isuktan, Id aw-Tanan, Ashtuken, Malen, Id aw-Ltit, Ammeln, Ait 'Ali, Mjjat, l-Akhsas, Ait Ba 'Amran, Ait n-Nuss. Kabylie (Algeria) IFLISSEN OUM EL LIL MAATKA AÏT AÏSSI AÏT IRATEN AÏT MENGUELLAT AÏT BETHROUN AÏT SEDKA IGOUCHDAL IFLISSEN LEBHAR AÏT OUAGUENOUN AÏT DJENNAD AÏT IDJER Beni Ziyyat Beni Zejel Beni Selman Beni Bu Zra (ghomara tmazight speakers) Beni Mansur Beni Grir Beni Smih Beni Rzin Sinhaja die tmazight spreken en/of darija Aith seddat aith khannus zarqat ktama aith bshir taghzut beni bu shibt Sinhaja (darija speakers). Beni Gmil Terguist Mix Riffijns/Sinhaja aith mazdui Rif (darjia) Bni Bu Frah Mtiwa Aith Yittuft Bargwata Casa blanca/ rabat Tunisia Djerba Libya Nefousa Tuareg ( Sahara-general) Tamashek Tinariwen (Mali, Algiers en Mauritania) Siwa(Egypte) (Algiers) Chaouia (North East)(Aurès mountains), Chenoua (North central to the coast) Mozabites (North Sahara) (Tunisia) Matmata
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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as we can see, of the North not the South, and archaeological evidence supporting that
Hmmmm, this map is not about the origin of the people. It mere shows sites inhabited by Caspians and Iberomaurusian at the Magreb. And it's a from Wikipedia btw, unless you see this as peer reviewed scholarship?
I too find it ironic and a bit frustrating I have to repost the same again. And I truly wonder why it just can't sink into you?
quote: Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb
[...]
Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.”
--Paul C. Sereno Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
quote:
Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin,
[...]
At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
--Lawrence Barham The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade: Uhh... I'm a newbie on here and lioness is a troll. It's not a debate. Most people on here are not against a debate, but if you do post you gotta be able to back it up. This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
If you feel lioness is making some valid points, you should expound on it and put forth info. Second, you dismiss Troll Patrol's posts but is he lying? Does he have sound info?
Simply listening to one side of the debate is not going to help.
I see your point, and I mostly agree. My problem is that this thread in fact is mostly "North Africans were always black Africans" spiel which I believe is false. What I’m doing is exactly that: looking at two sides of a debate.
I’m on your side (and Troll Patrol’s too but he’s unable to understand that) and I know that black Africans were the early inhabitants of North Africa until they were pushed south later on. But when there have been light-skinned Berbers for hundreds of years, how fair is it to say they’re not true Berbers?
I’m a black Canadian, first generation, so am I wrong to say that I’m Canadian because my parents only lived here for 40 years? That’s not right.
All I’m saying is we should recognize the diversity of North Africa. I’m a newbie too but I’ve read old threads on the forum before I joined. And I don’t necessarily say lioness is always trolling. She does at times post things from another perspective that some members don’t want to see just because it possibly shows blacks were not always dominant in all regions of Africa.
Since my first post here, I see that some specific members fail to look at things critically, and ignore any research that goes against what they believe, calling this “Eurocentric lies” or trolls. Example: I was called a Eurocentric white troll here only because I asked a question about the head of King Narmer. The fact that I asked the question of why some ignorant people would label it a 25th century fraud (which I specifically said was false) and what the story was behind that lie, some members jumped on me, just for looking for evidence against the lie.
And I never said anything Troll Patrol posted was wrong, just that he copy and pastes endless articles that it’s more of spamming than actually debating. Not everyone here does that but him.
I have no beef with you but implying she posts things for different perspective is bull. Look through this site. She posts the same things inaccurate things over and over and gets debunked. Every Week. That's why nobody has patience or respect for her.
As for North Africans, can we all agree on these facts?
North Africa was filled with Indigenous Africans (as all of Africa was). The indigenous population was pushed south and/or intermixed with Non-Africans over centuries.
Which is melting pot we have now.
Fact.
As for Light skinned Berbers, that's possible because it is well within African diversity to produce it.
However posting the light skinned, admixed people of today is inaccurate.
Also the comparison of being Black Canadian is off the mark.
You are a Canadian, yes but you are of modern extraction. You are not of indigenous ancestry, correct?
I'm African American and my ancestors have been here for centuries but no matter how long I am here my people will never be indigenous and cannot be used to portray the indigenous people of this country.
Same goes for European Americans and anyone who is not Native- American.
That goes for you and everyone else in the North American/ South American countries and inbetween.
Modern Day Africa is diverse but when we are discussing the INDIGENOUS people, all the modern day non-Africans and their heavily mixed offspring are not included because they are not the original people/ nor represent them aesthetically.
North Africa was filled with Indigenous Africans (as all of Africa was). The indigenous population was pushed south and/or intermixed with Non-Africans over centuries.
Which is melting pot we have now.
Fact.
As for Light skinned Berbers, that's possible because it is well within African diversity to produce it.
However posting the light skinned, admixed people of today is inaccurate.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: HidayaAkade knows zero about the Kabyle
That makes 2 of us.
How would someone who knows nothing about the Kabyle know if someone else who posted about them knew nothing about the Kabyle, answer> dumbness
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
This too was posted several times.
Iberomaurusian green, Capsian blue
as we can see, of the North not the South, and archaeological evidence supporting that
Hmmmm, this map is not about the origin of the people. It mere shows sites inhabited by Caspians and Iberomaurusian at the Magreb. And it's a from Wikipedia btw, unless you see this as peer reviewed scholarship?
I too find it ironic and a bit frustrating I have to repost the same again. And I truly wonder why it just can't sink into you?
You love reposting, stop it.
You misread these articles
And if a map came from wikipedia and I use it to show that the Iberomaurusians settlements were along the coast of North Africa it is a waste of time to say that it is wrong because it came from wikipedia. Unless you are saying that Iberomaurusians did not come from coastal North Africa then dont bother attacking wikipedia unless you can prove the information wrong, thats ad hominem
CNET News Consumer services December 15, 2005 3:35 PM PST
Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers.
(the part you left out)
Iberomaurusians are not Kiffians and Tenerians are not Capsians Iberomaurusians lasted over 9,000 years in the Maghreb. -and their culture ended 9,000 years ago also. Sereno notes differeneces and similarities between the morpholgies of these cultures. But he does not say because of similarities that the Iberomaurusians were Sahelians
These early occupants abandon the area under arid conditions and, when humid conditions return ~4600 B.C.E., are replaced by a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including animal bone and ivory ornaments.
Population replacement after a harsh arid hiatus is the most likely explanation for the occupational sequence at Gobero.
Arid interruption. Early and mid-Holocene occupation phases 2 and 3 at Gobero are separated in time by a barren interval (6200–5200 B.C.E), which is associated with a period of severe aridification recorded across the Sahara.
Population replacement. Population replacement rather than gradual phenotypic evolution best explains the distinctive craniofacial morphology and funerary practices of the human occupants during phases 2 and 3 in the early and mid-Holocene, respectively, particularly considering the relatively short intervening occupational hiatus. ___________________________________________________
The origin of Iberomaurusiens in north- west Africa
Origins of the Iberomaurusian in NW Africa: New AMS radiocarbon dating of the Middle and Later Stone Age deposits at Taforalt Cave, Morocco 2013
.N.E. Barton et al.
This study showed that there is no cultural continuity between iberomaurusienne industry and the one before . Thus, in the northwest of Africa the transition between the Middle Paleolithic and Upper Paleolithic corresponds to the arrival of a lamellar industry around 22,000 years driven by population growth sub- clades of mitochondrial haplogroup U6 . Remains whether this event is related to the arrival of a new population in the Maghreb following the disappearance of Middle Paleolithic cultures or not, and if it is linked to climate change. ________________________________________________
you don't understand continuity and repalcement issues as well as ending points of these cultures
The topic is Kayble. If you can't tie these things to them you are straying from the topic.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Your post above is a mess, and inordinate.then you go grab a 2005 article from cnet? To prove what?
For this extreme dumb person, go and reread my post.
I cited as it says Gobero (Gob-e) not Gob-m.
I am speaking of:
Gobero (Gob-e)
Gobero (Gob-e)
Gobero (Gob-e)
Gobero (Gob-e)
Gobero (Gob-e)
Gobero (Gob-e)
Gobero (Gob-e)
Got it!
quote: "No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub-clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
--Erwan Pennarun et al. Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa, BMC Evolutionary Biology 2012, 12:234
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: see thread topic Kabyle not Gobero ( Kiffians.Tenerians)
Got it!
No I don't get it, the ancient Gobero population was inhabited by proto Tamazight, known as the ancestors of the Tuareg and till this day the Tuareg have settled this place.
The Tuareg are Tamazight pastoralists. Which is the key to all these questions.
The Kabyle are a YOUNG subgroup amongst the Tamazight.
Those who inhabited the Magreb originate at the South, what is now known as the Sahara and Sahel.
You are pathetic.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
U6 likely originated as a small pock somewhere at the Horn-East Africa. Even in Kenya. It's found there too.
There are no complications.
quote: "No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub-clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
--Erwan Pennarun et al. Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa, BMC Evolutionary Biology 2012, 12:234
quote:
Recent genetic studies based on the distribution of mtDNA of haplogroup U6 have led to subtly different theories regarding the arrival of modern human populations in North Africa.
One proposes that groups of the proto-U6 lineage spread from the Near East to North Africa around 40–45 ka (thousands of years ago), followed by some degree of regional continuity.
Another envisages a westward human migration from the Near East, followed by further demographic expansion at ∼22 ka centred on the Maghreb and associated with a microlithic bladelet culture known as the Iberomaurusian.
In evaluating these theories, we report on the results of new work on the Middle (MSA) and Later Stone (LSA) Age deposits at Taforalt Cave in Morocco.
We present 54 AMS radiocarbon dates on bone and charcoals from a sequence of late MSA and LSA occupation levels of the cave. Using Bayesian modelling we show that an MSA non-Levallois flake industry was present until ∼24.5 ka Cal BP (calibrated years before present), followed by a gap in occupation and the subsequent appearance of an LSA Iberomaurusian industry from at least 21,160 Cal BP.
The new dating offers fresh light on theories of continuity versus replacement of populations as presented by the genetic evidence.
We examine the implications of these data for interpreting the first appearance of the LSA in the Maghreb and providing comparisons with other dated early blade and bladelet industries in North Africa.
--R.N.E. Barton
Origins of the Iberomaurusian in NW Africa: New AMS radiocarbon dating of the Middle and Later Stone Age deposits at Taforalt Cave, Morocco
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: All this talk of the prehistoric presence of anatomically modern humans in North Africa and specifically the Maghreb remind me of certain populations in the area some of which are relatively isolated who exhibit robust cranio-facial features ...
If you can get the book Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women Margaret Courtney-Clarke; Geraldine Brooks New York: C. Potter, 1996
it's got at least one pic of an archaic admixed looking woman in the mountain fastnesses. I've never seen the type anywhere else in print or the 'net. It's either overlooked (intentionally ?) or it's very rare.
It's one of the books of my now lost personal library. I'll try and find it and scan the relevant pics.
Please people keep it on the Kabyle topic, not berber general, thanks
Wow, a lot of contradictory statements in a single post. Guess you don't know what you mean yourself. Since the woman is a Tamazight African of course she looks African, duh, you even compared her to another Tamazight as grandmother and grandchild.
Why yes I surmised the womans physical continuity with pre-Berber littoral and Atlas North Africans in the Modern Day North Africans who Exhibit 'Archaic' Features thread and in the very next post there I also gave out her residence. However she left her hometown elsewhere to marry an Ait Mgoun man. GOOGLing Ait Mgoun returns a map which can be unzoomed to see where it is in reference to Kabylie.
In the future if you want to find out about something I post ASK ME.
Swenet was sharp enough to notice that facial bone structure in a Levantine male skull presumably archaic -- epipaleolithic/Neolithic (?).
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
Prehistoric Levantine skull. Compare the tall maxilla and somewhat flaring zygomatic arches they have in common.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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you can tell an original Tamazight from a Sub Saharan who only integrated into Tamazight culture in recent times. An original Tamazight is light skinned with straight hair as we see above
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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you can tell an original Tamazight from a Sub Saharan who only integrated into Tamazight culture in recent times. An original Tamazight is light skinned with straight hair as we see above
Ha,ha,ha,ha:
Still trying to pass-off Mulattoes as original Africans I see.
He,he,he,he: No dear, there is no such a Race as Mulatto or Mediterranean.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: It would be important IMO to also have the Y-DNA analysis of those ancient Iberomaurusian remains, not just the MtDNA side. There's none as far as I know (if you have them, post them).
If we take into account the sex-biased genetic structuring and the heterogeneity of modern Berber, from the same region. It would be important to compare those with the Y-DNA analysis of those Iberomaurusian remains.
From what I recall, Ancient Iberomaurusian remains certainly seem to have some Eurasian genes in them from a very ancient time, including European ones (mtDNA) from the Iberian peninsula. Iberomaurusian culture seems to be restricted to the Maghreb/NorthWestern African region. Usually, as mentioned by archeological literature, any geographical regions are inhabited by various populations and lineages even in those times (late paleolithic, early Holocene). Iberomaurusian have been preceded by Aterian (of African origin) and succeed by Caspian (of unknown origin). As often mentioned those are rough/crude categorization, possibly hiding intra and inter population diversity and the lack of archeological research. It's still very speculative. In archeological literature, it's also not clear if there's continuity between those various ancient archeological culture and any modern descendant populations or population replacement. Although imo, Iberomaurusian seems to be related to many Berber populations.
We know Berber populations have a low nucleotide diversity and are example of sex-biased genetic structuring. Probably the (sex biased) interbreeding of groups from different geographical origin. At the very least, one basal Eurasian (MtDNA HUV) grouping, one basal African/East African (E-M215)/E-M81) grouping. Is it the same situation with the Iberomaurusian remains? It's hard to know without the Y-DNA counterpart.
(I'm also interested to know **when** did the high level of "genetic drift" happened. We know Berber populations have a low nucleotide diversity and are example of sex-biased genetic structuring. There's also a high level of heterogeneity between various Berber population from different regions. With a very high level of East African basal E-M215 and a relatively high level of Eurasian basal MtDNA (HUV). So at the very least, 2 groups from different ancient origin met and interbreed with each other. There was also a strong genetic drift/founding effect. So the genetic structuring/composition we have now, was probably different at one point in the past. A founder effect before their arrival in North Africa, could explain the lack of genetic diversity. A small group of people leaving a larger group with only a fraction of the genetic diversity of the larger group. The high level of "genetic drift" could also have happened after their arrival in the Maghreb (conflicts, famine, diseases, other selective pressure, random genetic drifting, all of the above, etc). I'm not sure which one is more plausible. So for me, it's not clear if Berber lost their genetic diversity before their arrival in North Africa or afterward )
If anything, the study of Iberomaurusian remains MtDNA in the Maghreb, seem to confirm a very ancient female biased Eurasian descendant presence (MtDNA HUV) in Africa (possibly alongside African Y-DNA presence, judging by the Berber). There was probably other related or unrelated groups in the regions which will be possibly clarified with further archeological studies. The lack of archeological ventures in Africa will always limit any big picture analysis of Ancient populations. Archeologists and historians speculate with the little they have, which must always be kept in mind when we try to speculate on a full picture. [/qb]
As for Light skinned Berbers, that's possible because it is well within African diversity to produce it.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuker:
Why yes I surmised.....
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Since the woman is a Tamazight African of course she looks African, duh
^^^ original white of Africa
.
^^^^ descendant
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE SHOW OR NAME ME A BLACK PEOPLE IN AFRICA WITH MOSTLY STRAIGHT HAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!BEFORE I GO CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol!
Most Khoisans have varying degrees of bantu admixture, nevertheless disregard anything Mike says, in retarded fashion he calls Khosians of the above complexion "mulatto"
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Most Khoisans have varying degrees of bantu admixture, nevertheless disregard anything Mike says, in retarded fashion he calls Khosians of the above complexion "mulatto"
Coloured
In the South African, Namibian, Zambian, Botswana and Zimbabwean context, the term Coloured (also known as Bruinmense, Kleurlinge or Bruin Afrikaners in Afrikaans) refers to a heterogeneous ethnic group who possess ancestry from Europe and various Khoisan and Bantu tribes of Southern Africa. Besides the extensive combining of these diverse heritages in the Western Cape — in which a distinctive Cape Coloured and affiliated Cape Malay culture developed — in other parts of Southern Africa, their development has usually been the result of the meeting of two distinct groups. Genetic studies suggest the group has the highest levels of mixed ancestry in the world. However, the maternal (female) contribution to the Coloured population, measured by mitochondrial DNA studies, was found to come mostly from the Khoisan population.
In KwaZulu-Natal, most Coloureds come from British and Zulu heritage,[citation needed] while Zimbabwean Coloureds come from Shona or Ndebele mixing with British and Afrikaner settlers. Griqua, on the other hand, are descendants of Khoisan and Afrikaner Trekboers. Despite these major differences, the fact that they draw parentage from more than one naturalised racial group means that they are coloured in the southern African context. Such people did not necessarily self-identify this way; some preferred to call themselves black or Khoisan or just South African. The history of racial segregation and labelling in South Africa and neighbouring countries has meant that the governments placed all such mixed race people in a certain relationship together. The imperial and apartheid governments categorized them as Coloureds. In addition, other ethnic groups also traditionally viewed them as a separate group.
During the apartheid era, in order to keep divisions and maintain a race-focused society, the government used the term Coloured to describe one of the four main racial groups identified by law: Blacks, Whites, Coloureds and Indians. (All four terms were capitalised in apartheid-era law.)
Many Griqua began to self-identify as Coloureds during the apartheid era. There were certain advantages in becoming classified as Coloured. For example, Coloureds did not have to carry a dompas (an identity document designed to limit the movements of the non-white populace), while the Griqua, who were seen as another indigenous African group, did.
Coloured people constitute a plurality of the population in the Western Cape (48.8%) and a large minority in the Northern Cape (40.3%) and Eastern Cape (8.3%) provinces. Most speak Afrikaans, while about twenty percent of Coloureds speak English as their mother tongue, mostly in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal. However, virtually all Cape Town Coloureds are bilingual. Some can comfortably codeswitch between Kaapse taal (a creolized dialect of Afrikaans spoken mostly in the Cape Flats) and suiwer Afrikaans (formal Afrikaans as taught at school), and English.
Lioness, I know that I'm beginning to sound like a broken record But......
Damn you're stupid!
KING please don't think me cruel, but come-on, she asks for it, nah, Begs for it!Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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