Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
If I wasn't clear before, the time period of habitation by moderns is on the Pleistocene - Holocene cusp.
Please refresh yourself with Ounjougou (near the Bandiagara cliffs) home to 11,400 year old pottery and the non-E-P2 nrY haplogroup E-M33 a W Afr deep ancestry specific marker.
Let's take this up in another thread where the title will let surfers know this is what's in it, OK?
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Late Niger-Kordofanian occupation is another lie. We have the archaeology. It shows by pottery, plant tendering and domestication, and metallurgy what people were there.
Climatology also indicates these West African Pleistocene folk moved north with the monsoons that greened the Sahara for the Holocene.
^^^This is false.
What is important for people to know is that modern West African people for the most part (like Niger-Kordofanian speakers) are relatively recent migrants to their current West African locations(regions). By recent, in this case, we mean after 10kya, thus during the Holocene.
Here's a quote from the book called The Origins of Modern Humans: Biology reconsidered (p23-24). Similar analysis can also be seen in other literature:
quote:Emergence of Distinctive Regional Groups in Africa
Curiously, although modern humans appeared very early in Africa, there was a very long delay until the appearance of individuals who can not be distinguished metrically and morphologically from the living inhabitants of each part of Africa . In fact, almost all Africa Late Pleistocene hominins [Edit:between 120kya and 10kya] are easily distinguished from living Africans (Anderson, 1968; Brothwell and Shaw, 1971; Gramly and Rightmire, 1973; Twiesselmann, 1991; Muteti et al., 2010; Angel et al., 1980; de Villiers and Fatti, 1982; Angel and Olsen Kelly, 1986; Habgood, 1989; Howells, 1989; Boaz et al., 1990; Allsworth-Jones et al., 2010), and it is not until the Holocene that this situation changes (Rightmire, 1975, 1978b, 1984b; de Villiers and Fatti, 1982; Bräuer, 1984b; Habgood, 1989).
So basically, modern West African people arrived at their current location AFTER the late pleistocene period (or at worst at the very end of it) during the Holocene thus after 10 000BC. This is also true for most other modern African population in their respective regions (Cushitic and Chadic speakers).
Originally those modern West African migrants lived in North-eastern Africa which is the geographic origin of the Niger-Kordofanian languages (discussed HERE) as well as the geographic origin of the E-P2/E1b1a haplogroup lineage (the lineage of over 90% of the modern West African populations).
Before the arrival of modern West Africans during the Holocene, West Africa was inhabited by small groups of humans which didn't leave any traces (like languages) and were thus probably absorbed by the Holocene migrants. Modern West Africans are physically distinct from Pleistocene Africans inhabiting that region as stated in the quote above.
Only in Eastern Africa, around the Sudan region, can we see continuity between Pleistocene and Holocene specimen (as discussed HERE).
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
. ... What do we discover from the material: 1) the Ottoman and Arabs, believe that Majid guided Da Gama to India, from Malindi; this is false it was a Gujurati pilot.
. .
Accounts of the legendary pilot differ.
* Gujerati (Indian black), * Xian, * Muslim.
Take your pick.
quote:Secondly, the first mention of Majid, according to your material was 50 years after his death by Ottoman historian Qutb al Din. There is no prior mention of Majid.
. .
How could the first mention of ibn Majid be 50 years after he died when he wrote all those 'books'?
quote:This suggest that the Ottomans and Arabs did not know about Majid , until after Da Gama made his way to India between 1497-98. It was probably after Da Gama reached India, that Arab and Ottoman sailors found out about Majid's Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id (Book of Useful Information on the Principles and Rules of Navigation), after this discovery they promptly send envoys to Majid in West Africa to get copies of his book. This is the most logical way the Arabs and Turks learned about the work of Majid, because it was not until after 1500 that this book became standard reading for Indian Ocean merchants.
. .
This is not a historical novel. You can't go around inventing whole scenarios for characters.
Ibn Majid's writings circled around the Swahili/Red Sea/ Arabian Sea/Persian Gulf world.
quote:In summary, their is nothing in the material you posted that proves that Da Gama did not get information about the Indian Ocean navigation from Majid in West Africa.
. .
There is no contemporaneous idea of ibn Majid being African. Stop refusing the details of his bio.
Da Gama had no idea how to get to India until he got it from the Swahili as explained above in post after post.
Ibn Majid and da Gama meeting each other would seem a Turk fabrication except that Arabs evidently accepted it. To the best of my meager research no writing by either man mentions the other.
Again, what is ibn Majid's full name?Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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The identification of the West African ibn Majid is depended on the translations of Bazan because I do not read Russian.
Here is my copy of the Bazan article: R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
Above is the portion of the Rafael Bazan article which mentions Ibn Majid
The first indented paragraph top of p 285 right top:
quote: Arab georgraphical information reached Vasco da Gama through his consultation with Ahamad b. Majid, whom he met on the West Coast of Africa.
So, Bazan says da Gama got Arab information from Ibn Majid.
He claims da Gama met Ibn Majid on the West Coast of Africa rather than the East Coast as claimed by the earliest primary source, though still about 50 years after Majid's death.
Nowhere does Bazan say Vasco da Gama or Ibn Majid were Africans. They mererly met there.
So why do you have a video up saying Ibn Majid was African when no primary source or modern source says Ibn Majid was African??
They were on the West Coast of Africa so I must assume that he was West African. There are no primary sources on Majid. The only sources we have are second hand sources written by Turks 50 years after Majid's death. Primary sources are sources written at the time an event took place.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Instead of doubling down on bad info just retract it and move on, there is no shame in that, great men of science do all the time,it's enough that Africans made use of the compass, astronomy was one of the courses taught at the university of Timbuktu,these people were among the greatest collectors and disseminators of information in the medieval world.
I don't see why it needs to be retracted until I see more evidence Majid was not a West Africans. Researchers have commented on the fact that the papers in the Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id appear to have been written at different times and may have been papers written by other people published in the Kitab al-Fawa’id.
The most important part of the story is that Vasco da Gama learned about the West Indies. This along with Africans trading along the American coast shows that West African nautical sciences was not as primitive as people assume.
Add the naval knowledge of West Africans, to the presence of West African placenames in India add considerable support to Majid being a West Africa, who could have had knowledge about the region because of the West Africans who lived in towns with West African names in the Indian Ocean region.
Researchers have ignored the naval technology and navigation sciences of the West Africans, it is time we debate this knowledge. The fact that the Arabs thought that Majid led Da Gama to India, makes it clear to me they did not know too much about Majid until after Da Gama made his way to India. If Majid was such an important figure in Indian Ocean navigation prior to Da Gama's voyage, and was living in Oman,, he would have been well known and they would not have mixed up the Gujurati pilot that guided Da Gama to India, with the great navigator Ahmad ibn Majid.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Outward and Return voyages of the Portuguese India Run (Carreira da Índia). The Outward route of the South Atlantic westerlies that Bartolomeu Dias discovered in 1487, followed and explored by Vasco da Gama in the open ocean, would be developed in subsequent years.
We have already established from the Portuguese sources that Majid did not guide Da Gama, and the Arabs claim that Majid did not drink liquor. So stop promoting the claim Majid guided Da Gama to India when he didn't.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: If I wasn't clear before, the time period of habitation by moderns is on the Pleistocene - Holocene cusp.
Ok. The point being modern West Africans for the most part are recent migrants to the region.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The point being W Afr was inhabited by E-M33 Africans in the Holocene - Pleistocene cusp and your precious Niger-Kordofanian speakers in W Afr have significant levels of E-M33 that westbound E Afrs did not give them. Monsoons 'pushed' some of them north into the Sahara others remained in W Afr throughout the Green Sahara period and became advanced enough to reduce iron when drying Saharans were still strictly stone age.
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. ... What do we discover from the material: 1) the Ottoman and Arabs, believe that Majid guided Da Gama to India, from Malindi; this is false it was a Gujurati pilot.
. .
Accounts of the legendary pilot differ.
* Gujerati (Indian black), * Xian, * Muslim.
Take your pick.
quote:Secondly, the first mention of Majid, according to your material was 50 years after his death by Ottoman historian Qutb al Din. There is no prior mention of Majid.
. .
How could the first mention of ibn Majid be 50 years after he died when he wrote all those 'books'?
quote:This suggest that the Ottomans and Arabs did not know about Majid , until after Da Gama made his way to India between 1497-98. It was probably after Da Gama reached India, that Arab and Ottoman sailors found out about Majid's Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id (Book of Useful Information on the Principles and Rules of Navigation), after this discovery they promptly send envoys to Majid in West Africa to get copies of his book. This is the most logical way the Arabs and Turks learned about the work of Majid, because it was not until after 1500 that this book became standard reading for Indian Ocean merchants.
. .
This is not a historical novel. You can't go around inventing whole scenarios for characters.
Ibn Majid's writings circled around the Swahili/Red Sea/ Arabian Sea/Persian Gulf world.
quote:In summary, their is nothing in the material you posted that proves that Da Gama did not get information about the Indian Ocean navigation from Majid in West Africa.
. .
There is no contemporaneous idea of ibn Majid being African. Stop refusing the details of his bio.
Da Gama had no idea how to get to India until he got it from the Swahili as explained above in post after post.
Ibn Majid and da Gama meeting each other would seem a Turk fabrication except that Arabs evidently accepted it. To the best of my meager research no writing by either man mentions the other.
Again, what is ibn Majid's full name?
The books of Majid were usually hand copied. I have not seen any Arab writers discussing Majid's work prior the first mention of Majid,by Qutb al Din. Researchers and your own material make it clear it was was written 50 years after his death by Ottoman historian Qutb al Din. There is no prior mention of Majid by other Arab authors that I know of at this moment. As a result, there are no contemporary writings about Majid. Mterial written by someone after a person's death is not contemporary.
The only information we learn is that Da Gama claims that he met Majid in Africa. If he met him in Africa Majid was probably West African.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The point being W Afr was inhabited by E-M33 Africans in the Holocene - Pleistocene cusp and your precious Niger-Kordofanian speakers in W Afr have significant levels of E-M33 that westbound E Afrs did not give them. Monsoons 'pushed' some of them north into the Sahara others remained in W Afr throughout the Green Sahara period and became advanced enough to reduce iron when drying Saharans were still strictly stone age.
This has nothing to do with this discussion.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I'm sorry.
Would you like all offtopic matter raised by ARtU & me deleted or what?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: They were on the West Coast of Africa so I must assume that he was West African. There are no primary sources on Majid. The only sources we have are second hand sources written by Turks 50 years after Majid's death. Primary sources are sources written at the time an event took place.
1) If there are no primary sources saying Ibn Majid was an African or that he was in West Africa then you cannot assume he was African or set foot in West Africa.
2) The the 15th century Ottoman historian Qutb al Din was the first to say that Vasco da Gama meet Ibn Majid. Despite being around 50 years after his death this can be considered the primary source of the claim that they met
3) Peruvian Professor, Rafael Guevara Bazan President of the Instituto Peruano de Alto Estudios Islámicos, Lima, Peru wrote in 1971 (or 67?) that Vasco da Gama met Ahamad b. Majid met on the West Coast of Africa but Islamic Scholars say it was in Malindi, Kenya. This is regardless of whether or not he piloted the ship
4) So Clyde, a Peruvian Professor wrote something in 1967 or 71. That is not a primary source So why are you saying Ibn Majid met Vasco da Gama in West Africa based on a source that is not primary?
5) why would you have to assume that if two people were travelers that because they met at a location that therefore one of the people is native? Rafael Bazan did not say in his unsourced claim that Ibn Majid met Vasco da Gama somewhere in West Africa that therefore one can assume Ibn Majid was a native West African.
So if you don't have primary sources then why do you have a video up saying that the two met in West Africa and that Ibn Majid was an African?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There are no primary sources on Majid. The only sources we have are second hand sources written by Turks 50 years after Majid's death. Primary sources are sources written at the time an event took place.
Right, so you can't assume "They were on the West Coast of Africa so I must assume that he was West African" Posts: 42934 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: They were on the West Coast of Africa so I must assume that he was West African. There are no primary sources on Majid. The only sources we have are second hand sources written by Turks 50 years after Majid's death. Primary sources are sources written at the time an event took place.
1) If there are no primary sources saying Ibn Majid was an African or that he was in West Africa then you cannot assume he was African or set foot in West Africa.
2) The the 15th century Ottoman historian Qutb al Din was the first to say that Vasco da Gama meet Ibn Majid. Despite being around 50 years after his death this can be considered the primary source of the claim that they met
3) Peruvian Professor, Rafael Guevara Bazan President of the Instituto Peruano de Alto Estudios Islámicos, Lima, Peru wrote in 1971 (or 67?) that Vasco da Gama met Ahamad b. Majid met on the West Coast of Africa but Islamic Scholars say it was in Malindi, Kenya. This is regardless of whether or not he piloted the ship
4) So Clyde, a Peruvian Professor wrote something in 1967 or 71. That is not a primary source So why are you saying Ibn Majid met Vasco da Gama in West Africa based on a source that is not primary?
5) why would you have to assume that if two people were travelers that because they met at a location that therefore one of the people is native? Rafael Bazan did not say in his unsourced claim that Ibn Majid met Vasco da Gama somewhere in West Africa that therefore one can assume Ibn Majid was a native West African.
So if you don't have primary sources then why do you have a video up saying that the two met in West Africa and that Ibn Majid was an African?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There are no primary sources on Majid. The only sources we have are second hand sources written by Turks 50 years after Majid's death. Primary sources are sources written at the time an event took place.
Right, so you can't assume "They were on the West Coast of Africa so I must assume that he was West African"
I never said they were primary sources that was your comment.
I said that Bazan claims Da Gama met ibn Majid in West Africa, and that Majid had written a book about navigation around the West Indies Islands.( We can infer that Da Gama knew about Brazil, because of what he learned from Majid the Portuguese King pushed for the Tordesillas line, and why when why when the Spanished reach Brazil, Portuguese were already there,)
I see these comments as valid and reliable statements because the Spanish mention West Africans sailing in the Caribbean and out in the Atlantic Ocean after they disccovered America.
Due to West African placenames in the Pacific, West Africans had earlier sailed the region so Majid would have been able to know about navigation of the Indian Ocean from west African who had sailed the region.
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I never said they were primary sources that was your comment.
I said that Bazan claims Da Gama met ibn Majid in West Africa, and that Majid had written a book about navigation around the West Indies Islands. We can infer that Da Gama knew about Brazil.
How do you know this obscure Peruvian professor's claims are true when all the other authors say they met in East Africa or never met at all?
Why if you have not cited quotes of the earliest Islamic or Portrugese sources to verify if bazan's claims are credible?
But more importantly why do you state as fact in a video that Ibn Majid was not an Arabian but he was West African based on an unverified claim of Bazan that did not say the man was African he only made an unsourced claim that they met in West Africa??
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The identification of the West African ibn Majid is depended on the translations of Bazan because I do not read Russian.
Here is my copy of the Bazan article: R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
( Rafael Guevara Bazan President of the Instituto Peruano de Alto Estudios Islámicos, Lima, Peru)
Tukuler, this author Bazan says about Ibn Majid (above, upper right ) >
quote: He is regarded as the author of a handbook on navigation on the Indian Ocean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, the sea of Southern China and the waters around the West Indies Islands ( Some West Africans consider him the inventor of the compass [5]
[5]See on Ibn Majid an interesting study of T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui, Moscow, 1957, and R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292. In G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes(, Paris,1928)
More super-obscure lost or fabricated references. " T.A. Shumusky"
This Muslim Peruvian professor reads Russian and that is his go to reference for Majid ?
Anway, the claim here is made that Ibn Majid wrote about places including "waters around the West Indies Islands"
What he wrote can be verified. Did he write anything about the "waters around the West Indies Islands" ?
It sounds dubious
As per the cliam that Ibn Majid was a native West African I have come across no author other than Clyde Winters who claims that
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: that westbound E Afrs did not give them.
^^^That's not true either, it's a baseless assumption on your part, because every E haplogroups originate in (North)Eastern Africa, so this scenario is possible too. Subsequent genetic drift and founder effect could explain the situation in modern time (after their arrival in West Africa), no population have only 1 haplogroup after all. You also don't present aDNA and nor any sources for your opinions, so I can only analyse your opinions as opinions without any data foundation to analyse.
Beside what I stated in this thread, I also already pointed out in another thread (discussed HERE) that modern West Africans from all E haplogroups are for the most part recent migrants from the Green Sahara carrying with them artifacts from the Green Sahara period in search for greener pasture when the Sahara became a desert.
In the link above we can read (from the Oxford source): The artefacts found at many early sites support a northern origin for SMA people in southern West Africa. Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Get real, eventually all haplogroups all over the world deep root in Africa. Before Tishkoff proposed SW Afr using genetics, archeo-anthropology pointed to E Afr. But on to the pertinent thing.
You keep ignoring Ounjougou. Why?
Because it shatters your doxa?
Is that why you clipped my quote so that it's dubious just what it is you're responding to?
Ounjougou near Bandiagara Dogon country, clearly in West Africa, with 11,400 year old pottery and TMRCA 11,684 - 26,171 year old E-M33. It is from there, when the moonsoon range moved north, that people also moved north having not a thing to do with Sahara bound East Africans and their later pottery style.
These are not assumptions nor are they my opinion. They reflect your 'study' is shallow and opinionated with personal bias in preference of your Niger-Congo E-P2 only doxa on West Africans.
I write that last paragraph because you don't know how to discuss a topic w/o injecting barbs at the person presenting it or just outright lying about what was presented.
That is very tiring because I for one don't have time to waste deflating our groundless reflection. Try to slow down and read and then ask me questions about what you don't get.
That way you may learn something you don't already know.
Me? Who are my teachers? All of them.
This topic needs its own thread. I will not hi-jack Clyde's thread with any more of it.
If you don't start a thread to discuss terminal Pleistocene to early and middle Holocene West Africa I will take it you aren't interested in learning anything outside your E Afr to Sahara pump doxa.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: These are not assumptions nor are they my opinion. They reflect your 'study' is shallow and opinionated with personal bias in preference of your Niger-Congo E-P2 only doxa on West Africans.
That's ridiculous. My analysis applies for all African E haplogroups in Africa and West Africa.
On this forum, I talk a lot about the P2/Pn2 bridge because it unites Niger-Kordofanian, Cushitic and Chadic speakers and it is the most widespread lineage in Africa but if it didn't exist I would talk about the E bridge (the E-M96 bridge).
The idea is that all A, B and E haplogroups are African haplogroups which appeared after the OOA migrations, so they represent the history of African people.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
This topic needs its own thread. I will not hi-jack Clyde's thread with any more of it.
If you don't start a thread to discuss terminal Pleistocene to early and middle Holocene West Africa I will take it you aren't interested in learning anything outside your E Afr to Sahara pump doxa.
Feel free to post in it if you got something to say especially if backed by sources and data. You can always start your own threads of course.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I've said what I had to say. It doesn't please you. I did not write in protest of any earlier thread you made.
I posted the below on p.1 of this thread and you reacted
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Late Niger-Kordofanian occupation is another lie. We have the archaeology. It shows by * pottery, * plant tendering and domestication, and * metallurgy what people were there.
Climatology also indicates these West African Pleistocene folk moved north with the monsoons that greened the Sahara for the Holocene.
As the Sahara re-desertified, some moved back to West Africa with their stone industry. But those who remained in W Afr during the greening had begun iron reduction already by then.
If you think you can refute the 'testimony' of Ounjougou or that Igbo Nigeria was into iron before Saharans retreated to the Sahel then YOU must broach a thread for it.
Everything else is ridiculous.
I will continue disputing the hollow assertion that W Afr had no non-Khoe non-Pygmy blacks before the Sahara dried out whereever it comes up no matter who posits it.
That concept comes from unsupportable doxa that pleases the ego.
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Notice how I provided sources and data for my assertions.
I've discussed Ounjougou many times on this forum. Since it happened around 10 000BC, I consider it late events in the history of West Africa. Either Holocene or at the very end of the Pleistocene (I agreed with you above when you said cusp). So the point still stand about modern West Africans being for the most part recent migrants to the region. They are migrants from Northeastern Africa (maybe around Sudan). Which happens to be the geographic location of the Niger-Kordofanian language and the E-P2 Y-DNA lineage.
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posted
Here's quote taken from Africa in History by Christopher Ehret (also see the 2014 book Africa's Development in Historical Perspective):
quote:The initial warming of climate in the Bølling-Allerød interstadial, 12,700-10,900 BCE, brought increased rainfall and warmer conditions in many African regions. Three sets of peoples, speaking languages of the three language families that predominate across the continent today, probably began their early expansions in this period. [...] Peoples of a second family, Niger-Kordofanian, spread across an emerging east-west belt of savanna vegetation from the eastern Sudan to the western Atlantic coast of Africa.
This relate the migration of Niger-Kordofanian speakers from Eastern Sudan toward the Atlantic coast at the beginning of the Holocene.
The same document also mention Ounjougou:
quote:In the tenth millennium in the savannas of modern-day Mali, communities speaking early daughter languages of proto-Niger-Congo, itself an offshoot of the Niger-Kordofanian family , began to intensively collect wild grains, among them probably fonio. Their Ounjougou culture is the earliest identified facies of the West African Microlithic,viii the archaeological complex associated with the early Niger-Congo peoples.ix Integral to their new subsistence system was their invention of the earliest ceramic technology in world history, between 10,000 and 9500 BCE. Rather than grinding whole grains into flour, the Ounjougou people apparently made the whole grains edible by cooking them in pots.
So here it associate the invention of ceramic to these Niger-Kordofanian migrants. Of course at that time they spoke an early daughter language of proto-Niger-Congo before the language differentions we know today.
This was all discussed before in the Green Sahara thread linked above as well as in this thread (CLICK HERE)
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posted
The Mandinga controlled the port of Elmina, when the Portuguese arrived in the area.
The Italians may have also known about Brazil. In the Andrea Map of 1448, they depict an Island 1500 miles from the Cape Verde Island. A notation on the Map says this Island is 1500 miles away. This is interesting because that is just about the distance from Cape Verde to Brazil.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Mandinga controlled the port of Elmina, when the Portuguese arrived in the area.
No the 'Mandinga' never controlled ElMina.
You're thinking about El Mina Castle. You do know that the port was already settled when the Portuguese arrived. In fact the Portuguese had to "compensate" the local people so they could build the fort. At this time, although most of the locals were Akan speakers, it was part of the Mali/Songhay Empire.
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Why were all the islands around Africa first settled or founded by Europeans (or Arabs) if Africans sailed all over the globe, reaching America in ancient times? Shouldn't they have settled the islands closest to them first if they were great sea-farers?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Clyde I already wrote about Euros having to appease Ghanaians to occupy the island which they had to lease and erect fort(s).
The coast of Ghana was never Mandinga.
Here on ES you will not get away with altering the facts of reality.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Mandinga controlled the port of Elmina, when the Portuguese arrived in the area.
No the 'Mandinga' never controlled ElMina.
You're thinking about El Mina Castle. You do know that the port was already settled when the Portuguese arrived. In fact the Portuguese had to "compensate" the local people so they could build the fort. At this time, although most of the locals were Akan speakers, it was part of the Mali/Songhay Empire.
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Why were all the islands around Africa first settled or founded by Europeans (or Arabs) if Africans sailed all over the globe, reaching America in ancient times? Shouldn't they have settled the islands closest to them first if they were great sea-farers?
These Islands are near East Africa. Also I think you need to check the archaeology for these places. The original inhabitants were not Europeans and Arabs. For a long time people had believed that Africans were not the first inhabitants of Madagascar, now we know they were.
Why were all the islands around Africa first settled or founded by Europeans (or Arabs) if Africans sailed all over the globe, reaching America in ancient times? Shouldn't they have settled the islands closest to them first if they were great sea-farers?
. .
Globe sailing ancient Africans is no part of authentic African history.
Nor do we find sea trade between say Atlantic speaking Africans and coastal Angola nor sea trade between Angola and Mozambique.
I don't know why but some blacks with a be-like complex feel bad unless they turn Africa(ns) into ebony reflections of Euros and their accomplishments.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Clyde I already wrote about Euros having to appease Ghanaians to occupy the island which they had to lease and erect fort(s).
The coast of Ghana was never Mandinga.
Here on ES you will not get away with altering the facts of reality.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Mandinga controlled the port of Elmina, when the Portuguese arrived in the area.
No the 'Mandinga' never controlled ElMina.
You're thinking about El Mina Castle. You do know that the port was already settled when the Portuguese arrived. In fact the Portuguese had to "compensate" the local people so they could build the fort. At this time, although most of the locals were Akan speakers, it was part of the Mali/Songhay Empire.
Akan claim they were part of the Mali Empire.
Are you sure they were not?
quote: History of Ghana Medieval Ghana (4th - 13th Century): The Republic of Ghana is named after the medieval Ghana Empire of West Africa. The actual name of the Empire was Wagadugu. Ghana was the title of the kings who ruled the kingdom. It was controlled by Sundiata in 1240 AD, and absorbed into the larger Mali Empire. (Mali Empire reached its peak of success under Mansa Musa around 1307.) Geographically, the old Ghana is 500 miles north of the present Ghana, and occupied the area between Rivers Senegal and Niger. Some inhabitants of present Ghana had ancestors linked with the medieval Ghana. This can be traced down to the Mande and Voltaic peoeple of Northern Ghana--Mamprussi, Dagomba and the Gonja. Anecdotal evidence connected the Akans to this great Empire. The evidence lies in names like Danso shared by the Akans of present Ghana and Mandikas of Senegal/Gambia who have strong links with the Empire. There is also the matrilineal connection. ...MORE http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/history/
Why were all the islands around Africa first settled or founded by Europeans (or Arabs) if Africans sailed all over the globe, reaching America in ancient times? Shouldn't they have settled the islands closest to them first if they were great sea-farers?
. .
Globe sailing ancient Africans is no part of authentic African history.
Nor do we find sea trade between say Atlantic speaking Africans and coastal Angola nor sea trade between Angola and Mozambique.
I don't know why but some blacks with a be-like complex feel bad unless they turn Africa(ns) into ebony reflections of Euros and their accomplishments.
You said:
quote: Globe sailing ancient Africans is no part of authentic African history.
This is a very broad statement. Don't you think that you should say it is not the history of Africa taught or written by Europeans. W.E.B. DuBois, J.A. Rogers and John Jackson, wrote about the various Africa civilizations established around the world.
They were especially consistent in writing that Africans had been in the Americas before Columbus.
So when you say "authentic history" aren't you talking about the history Europeans write?
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Sorry Clyde you'll have to do better than grandstanding on black sympathy. Readers of ES deserve better than 'a-black-man says-so-so-it's-right/a-white-man-said so-so-it's wrong.'
That's so funny it'd get you laughed out the classroom needless to say out of any collegial conference discussions too.
I stand by everything I said including no support for globe sailing ancient Africans. Medieval East Africans sailed the Indian Ocean as far as the East Indies. Imperial Age West Africans crossed the Atlantic to northern South America and the Caribbean.
Mandinga and Akan are entirely different languages and ethnies. Akan's may've once been within orbit of the multi- ethnic Mali empire but Mali has not a thing to do with leasing ElMina.
This is factual history, linguistics, and ethnography not historical fiction built off of logical suppositions that can hold true regardless of facts.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Mandinga and Akan are entirely different languages and ethnies. Akan's may've once been within orbit of the multi- ethnic Mali empire but Mali has not a thing to do with leasing ElMina.
This is factual history, linguistics, and ethnography not historical fiction built off of logical suppositions that can hold true regardless of facts.
I never said they leased El Mina from the Malians, I said the Portuguese paid the local people (Akan) compensation to build the Castle/Fort. How is an historical fact relating to relationship between the Akan and Protuguese historical fiction?
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Here we go with the peregrinations over what you said. You can't tie me up with the run around. I invite all readers to simply look at your posts and what you said about who the Portuguese dealt with regarding ElMina. My time is too precious for here we go round the mulberry bush antics.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Tukuler suffers from Eurocentrism on thr brain.
He simply cannot accept any evidence unless presented by Europeans or interpretations of evidemce unless blessed by Europeans.
He even refuses to use his own reasoning and commen sense to connect the dots...
Tukuler, this is why we are often so hard on certain Africans.
Your minds, though perfectly functional and even elite, have a tendency towards extreme inflexibility. Its as if the first idea that enters it, forever after pretedetermines whatever else is allowed to enter it.
Posts: 2818 | From: new york | Registered: Apr 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Your mind is impedded by hero worship and racial solidarity simplicities and unable to process data from various sources to synthesize independent analysis that can withstand the strictest of academic probing.
The proof is you simply cheerlead like a troll contributing not one sentence of information on the thread's topic or its spinoffs. DISMISSED!Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by kdolo: Tukuler suffers from Eurocentrism on thr brain.
He simply cannot accept any evidence unless presented by Europeans or interpretations of evidemce unless blessed by Europeans.
He even refuses to use his own reasoning and commen sense to connect the dots...
Tukuler, this is why we are often so hard on certain Africans.
Your minds, though perfectly functional and even elite, have a tendency towards extreme inflexibility. Its as if the first idea that enters it, forever after pretedetermines whatever else is allowed to enter it.
You might be on to something. Tukuler says writing about Black history in other lands, besides Africa is not authentic history when Afro-Americans like DuBois wrote GLOBAL HISTORY of Black and African people. This indicates aherence to Eurocentric history in relation to Africans. .
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Tukuler says writing about Black history in other lands, besides Africa is not authentic history
This is your second and last warning.
I'm not going to allow you to lie on me and call it freedom of speech.
I have and will continue to use Rogers, Hansberry, Jackson, DuBois, deGraft-Johnson, Chancellor Wms., Clegg, Lawrence, van Sertima, Rashidi, Marniche- Reynolds, or any other author and I will be critical of them where they are outdated.
This is not religion and I am not bound by your doxa.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Tukuler says writing about Black history in other lands, besides Africa is not authentic history
This is your second and last warning.
I'm not going to allow you to lie on me and call it freedom of speech.
I have and will continue to use Rogers, Hansberry, Jackson, DuBois, deGraft-Johnson, Chancellor Wms., or any other author and I will be critical of them where they are outdated.
This is not religion and I am not bound by your doxa.
Why were all the islands around Africa first settled or founded by Europeans (or Arabs) if Africans sailed all over the globe, reaching America in ancient times? Shouldn't they have settled the islands closest to them first if they were great sea-farers?
. .
Globe sailing ancient Africans is no part of authentic African history.
Nor do we find sea trade between say Atlantic speaking Africans and coastal Angola nor sea trade between Angola and Mozambique.
I don't know why but some blacks with a be-like complex feel bad unless they turn Africa(ns) into ebony reflections of Euros and their accomplishments.
posted
evident in Tukulers behavior, many suffer from extremely low self esteem and have internalized white supremacy to an extreme...he simply cannot fathom West Africans reaching the New World before Europeans even though the cumulative evidence is overwhelming.
EDIT: If you want to do psycho-analysis get a psych degree.
Also as explained earlier I have championed W Afrs in the Americas before 1500 here on ES for years.
You will not be allowed to dump on Africans the same way white and other racists do.
On the one hand you denigrate Africans as incapable of the simplest of things that all other peoples are capable of on the other hand in this instance you counter your own thesis and agree with me that W Afr made trans-Atlantic voyages.
This is nothing but trolling and will not be tolerated.
[ 23. April 2015, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: ausar ]
Posts: 2818 | From: new york | Registered: Apr 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The fact is that I have extensively referenced Black Scholars with actual quotes and full passages much more than you have here on ES. That's a fact.
I know of no ancient global voyaging by any continent's people.
Nor are there any writings or traditions of sea trade between those regional empires with continent spanning trade networks -- done by both riverine transport and overland porterage -- that I mentioned in reply to Dead.
Instead of immediately over reacting slow down and try to digest or at least ask me to explain what you don't understand.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
I will happily explain my point of view if you can ask the moderator to cease the censorship and stop altering my posts....
Posts: 2818 | From: new york | Registered: Apr 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
If you can write without trying to cut me down you won't be deleted.
You can't just say anything. Don't you know FREEDOM OF SPEECH tenders responsibilty on the part of the speaker? Tha's not censorship. That's putting out the trash, troll.
The days of sophmoric juvenile posting on ES is over.
No go make yourself cognizant of what I have actually posted these 10 long years.
You haven't been here long enough nor have you GOOGLE or internal searched my view on this or any other topic. You just troll a baseless character assassination.
That's not flying on ES anymore as long as I can help it. I don't read all posts but when something whack comes to my attention it will be gone (and all replies to it as well).
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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ARDO EDIT OK don't say I didn't give you a chance.
I'm putting out the trash stinking up the place.
Consider yourself banned along with Mike111 Any and all posts by you will be deleted as will all replies made to you before I could get around to deleting your original post.
Go migrate elsewhere ... now.
Your only alternative is to calm the **** down.
[ 23. April 2015, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: ausar ]
Posts: 2818 | From: new york | Registered: Apr 2014
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posted
All my posts have been saved along time.ago.....and will migrate to the new discussion space.....
Go ahead and ban me.
Very African dictator like....
peace out !
ARDO EDIT OK good now keep your word and go away already because you have nothing to contribute about Egyptian and/or African studies or disciplines backing up the responsible independent theses ESers post here.
[ 23. April 2015, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: ausar ]
Posts: 2818 | From: new york | Registered: Apr 2014
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