quote:Originally posted by the questioner: mike111 well then my statement remains true until proven other wise
So you can make any statement
And if you are too lazy to prove it
You can ask somebody else to disprove it
And your fauty logic is if they cannot disprove any statement that you make it is therefore true.
Even many people in this forum I don't agree with will first show evidence they say that supports their claims
So you coming around and saying anything you want and assuming it's true because nobody did research here to prove it is false is bogus and people in this forum are not going for it
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin
post a photo of one or a link to it so we know you're not bullshytting
(people please dont help him with this. I know you would like to show off all the nice pictures you have of Greek artifacts which portray people with curly hair and dark skin but let's see if the questioner can reference any of these so we know he's not fronting. Let's see if this guy has any research skills or he's just a lazy bum )
It was a mistake for me even to address the thread topic question without asking for examples that were the premise to the question.
let this be something to keep in mind when dealing with the questioner.
If he comes up with any question first ask him to give an example of the premise and assumption he makes before he even begins the question.
In other words before the questioner wants to know if the Greeks were "white" But he prefaced that with
" ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin"
^^^ You might agree with that. But do you know which artifacts he is referring to ?
No, he needs to list some, period
he want everybody to do research and give him examples
But where are his examples?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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in case you have amnesia go to the first page of this topic i posted three pictures of Greeks that fit my description
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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im aware that there is alot of fake Greek artifacts
classical Greek art looks fake to me it doesn't look like something that would exist during that time
for example
does this bronze statue really look like its 2300 years old? be honest The Marathon Youth, 4th-century BC bronze statue,
Antikythera Ephebe The Antikythera Ephebe is a bronze statue of a young man of languorous grace that was found in 1900 by sponge-divers in the area of the ancient Antikythera shipwreck off the island of Antikythera, Greece. It was the first of the series of Greek bronze sculptures that the Aegean and Mediterranean yielded up in the twentieth century which have fundamentally altered the modern view of Ancient Greek sculpture.[1] The wreck site, which is dated about 70–60 BC. The Ephebe, dated by its style to about 340 BC, is one of the most brilliant products of Peloponnesian bronze sculpture. The Ephebe, which measures 1.94 meters, slightly over lifesize, was retrieved in numerous fragments. Its first restoration was revised in the 1950s, under the direction of Christos Karouzos, changing the focus of the eyes, the configuration of the abdomen, the connection between the torso and the right upper thigh and the position of the right arm; the re-restoration is universally considered a success.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: the lioness this only proves that the minoans are maternally European
Above we have a realistic Greek sculpture and below cartoonish much less realistic Minoan paintng.s Yet potentially there is no ethnic discrepancy between the scuplture and the paintings. They found the sculpture in fragments and restorers put it back together again and probably removed a heavy layer of encrusted barnacles. The Minoan paintings are also heavily restored but that you ingnore. And you didn't know about any of this and say that the bronze looks fake because for some reason you don't like the way the sculpture looks. The reason you give is that a 2,300 year old bronze would not look like that. Your comment is entirely bogus You know nothing about bronze, or bronze of that age, bronze is metal and under the right conditions can last for thousands of years.
Then with zero knowledge of the DNA of the ancient Greeks (which varies in different periods) you look at the Minona paintings and say: " this only proves that the minoans are maternally European" and the implication is that the brown skinned males must not be European. Yet these paintings cannot determine these things and cannot be considered reliable data on the physical anthropology of the Minoans. The paintings show white skinned females and brown skinned males. To what extent are the colors artistically exaggerated? These questions are unkown. Could someone of primarily European ancestry have brown skin? To what extent are the males tanned? Do these paintings represent the general populaltion? Why should one assume that Minoans males were of a different ethnic group than Minaon females? What populaltion in the world is comprised of all dark males and all light females ? Obviously as soon as a child was born the child would be of a skin tone in the middle between the mother and father. So the scenario that the Minoans had males of one ethnicity and females of another ethnicity doesn't make sense.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: lets look at the Y-DNA of Minoans:
European Journal of Human Genetics (2007) 15, 485–493. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201769; published online 31 January 2007
Paleolithic Y-haplogroup heritage predominates in a Cretan highland plateau
Abstract
The island of Crete, credited by some historical scholars as a central crucible of western civilization, has been under continuous archeological investigation since the second half of the nineteenth century. In the present work, the geographic stratification of the contemporary Cretan Y-chromosome gene pool was assessed by high-resolution haplotyping to investigate the potential imprints of past colonization episodes and the population substructure. In addition to analyzing the possible geographic origins of Y-chromosome lineages in relatively accessible areas of the island, this study includes samples from the isolated interior of the Lasithi Plateau – a mountain plain located in eastern Crete. The potential significance of the results from the latter region is underscored by the possibility that this region was used as a Minoan refugium. Comparisons of Y-haplogroup frequencies among three Cretan populations as well as with published data from additional Mediterranean locations revealed significant differences in the frequency distributions of Y-chromosome haplogroups within the island. The most outstanding differences were observed in haplogroups J2 and R1, with the predominance of haplogroup R lineages in the Lasithi Plateau and of haplogroup J lineages in the more accessible regions of the island. Y-STR-based analyses demonstrated the close affinity that R1a1 chromosomes from the Lasithi Plateau shared with those from the Balkans, but not with those from lowland eastern Crete. In contrast, Cretan R1b microsatellite-defined haplotypes displayed more resemblance to those from Northeast Italy than to those from Turkey and the Balkans.
Haplogroup J2 is thought to have appeared somewhere in the Middle East towards the end of the last glaciation, between 15,000 and 22,000 years ago. Its present geographic distribution argue in favour of a Neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent. This expansion probably correlated with the diffusion of domesticated of cattle and goats (starting c. 8000-9000 BCE) from the Zagros mountains and northern Mesopotamia, rather than with the development of cereal agriculture in the Levant (which appears to be linked rather to haplogroups G2 and E1b1b). A second expansion of J2 could have occured with the advent of metallurgy, notably copper working (from the Lower Danube valley, central Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia), and the rise of some of the oldest civilisations.
Quite a few ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern civilisations flourished in territories where J2 lineages were preponderant. This is the case of the Hattians, the Hurrians, the Etruscans, the Minoans, the Greeks, the Phoenicians (and their Carthaginian offshoot), the Israelites, and to a lower extent also the Romans, the Assyrians and the Persians. All the great seafaring civilisations from the middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age were dominated by J2 men.
There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship. The oldest evidence of a cult of the bull can be traced back to Neolithic central Anatolia, notably at the sites of Çatalhöyük and Alaca Höyük. Bull depictions are omnipresent in Minoan frescos and ceramics in Crete. Bull-masked terracotta figurines and bull-horned stone altars have been found in Cyprus (dating back as far as the Neolithic, the first presumed expansion of J2 from West Asia). The Hattians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Canaaites, and Carthaginians all had bull deities (in contrast with Indo-European or East Asian religions). The sacred bull of Hinduism, Nandi, present in all temples dedicated to Shiva or Parvati, does not have an Indo-European origin, but can be traced back to Indus Valley civilisation. Minoan Crete, Hittite Anatolia, the Levant, Bactria and the Indus Valley also shared a tradition of bull leaping, the ritual of dodging the charge of a bull. It survives today in the traditional bullfighting of Andalusia in Spain and Provence in France, two regions with a high percentage of J2 lineages.
The world's highest frequency of J2 is found among the Ingush (88% of the male lineages) and Chechen (56%) people in the Northeast Caucasus. Both belong to the Nakh ethnic group, who have inhabited that territory since at least 3000 BCE. Their language is distantly related to Dagestanian languages, but not to any other linguistic group. However, Dagestani peoples (Dargins, Lezgins, Avars) belong predominantly to haplogroup J1 (84% among the Dargins) and almost completely lack J2 lineages. Other high incidence of haplogroup J2 are found in many other Caucasian populations, including the Azeri (30%), the Georgians (27%), the Kumyks (25%), and the Armenians (22%). Nevertheless, it is very unlikely that haplogroups J2 originated in the Caucasus because of the low genetic diversity in the region. Most Caucasian people belong to the same J2a4b (M67) subclade. The high local frequencies observed would rather be the result of founder effects, for instance the proliferation of chieftains and kings's lineages through a long tradition of polygamy, a practice that the Russians have tried to suppress since their conquest of the Caucasus in the 19th century.
Founder Effects:
In population genetics, the founder effect is the loss of genetic variation that occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals from a larger population. As a result of the loss of genetic variation, the new population may be distinctively different, both genotypically and phenotypically, from the parent population from which it is derived.
Outside the Caucasus, the highest frequencies of J2 are observed in Cyprus (37%), Crete (34%), northern Iraq (28%), Lebanon (26%), Turkey (24%, with peaks of 30% in the Marmara region and in central Anatolia), Greece (23%), Central Italy (23%), Sicily (23%), South Italy (21.5%), and Albania (19.5%), as well as among Jewish people (19 to 25%).
One fourth of the Vlach people (isolated communities of Romance language speakers in the Balkans) belong to J2, considerably more than the average of Macedonia and northern Greece where they live. This, combined to the fact that they speak a language descended from Latin, suggests that they could have a greater part of Roman (or at least Italian) ancestry than other ethnic groups in the Balkans.
Middle-Eastern and European J2a
J2a's strong presence in Italy is owed in great part to the migration of the Etruscans from western Anatolia to central and northern Italy, and to the Greek colonisation of southern Italy. Immigration from the eastern Mediterranean to Rome during the Roman Empire, then from Anatolia, Thrace and Greece during the Byzantine period (particularly in north-eastern Italy) further increased the incidence of J2 in the peninsula.
The Phoenicians, Jews, Greeks and Romans all contributed to the presence of J2a in Iberia. The particularly strong frequency of J2a and other Near Eastern haplogroups (J1, E1b1b, T) in the south of the Iberian peninsula, suggest that the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians played a more decisive role than other peoples. This makes sense considering that they were the first to arrive, founded the greatest number of cities (including Gadir/Cadiz, Iberia's oldest city), and their settlements match almost exactly the zone where J2 is found at a higher frequency in southern Andalusia.
The Romans probably helped spread haplogroup J2 within their borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%), which bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire (once concessions are made for the Germanic invasions that appear to have lowered the frequency of J2 between Belgium and Switzerland).
The highest concentrations of J2a in Europe are found in Crete (32% of the population) and Calabria (26%). J2a-M319, one of the principal J2 subclades in Greece, Italy and Western Europe, reaches is maximum frequency in Crete (6-9%).
Indian J2a
Within India, J2a is more common among the upper castes and decreases in frequency with the caste level. This can be explained by the assimilation of local J2a (and R2) people from Bactria and Pakistan by the R1a Indo-European warriors who descended from the Volga-Ural region of Russia (Sintashta culture) and established themselves for a few centuries in southern Central Asia, immediately north of the Hindu Kush (including the Oxus civilization) before moving on to conquer the Indian subcontinent. J2a would have reached Bactria with the expansion of Neolithic herders from the Middle East who then blended with the indigenous hunter-gatherers belonging chiefly to R2.
J2b: Neolithic Balkans and Indo-Europeans
J2b has a quite different distribution from J2a. J2b seems to have a stronger association with the Neolithic and Chalcolithic cultures of Southeast Europe. It is particularly common in the Balkans, Central Europe and Italy, which is roughly the extent of the European Copper Age culture. Its maximum frequency is achieved around Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro and Northwest Greece - the part of the Balkans which best resisted the Slavic invasions in the Early Middle Ages.
The vast majority of J2b lineages belong to J2b2 and its subclades. While J2b* and J2b1 lineages are mostly restricted to the Caucasus, Anatolia and the Balkans, J2b2 is also found in the Pontic Steppe, in Central Asia and in South Asia, particularly in India. Its very low frequency in the Middle East though suggests that, unlike other J2 lineages it was not disseminated by a demic diffusion of the Neolithic lifestyle.
In many ways the distribution of J2b2 and its subclades is strongly reminiscent of G2a3b1 and its subclades. The most likely hypothesis is that both haplogroups colonised the Pontic Steppe region during the Neolithic, either crossing the Caucasus from eastern Anatolia or, more probably, expanding east from the flourishing cultures of 'Old Europe' (Thessalian Neolithic). J2b2 and G2a3b1 would have integrated the local R1a population, and later been joined by a larger contingent of R1b lineages coming from the North Caucasus (see R1b history).
Nowadays J2b2 is found chiefly in south-east and Central Europe, but also in Russia and among the upper castes of India. All these elements reinforce the hypothesis that J2b2 and G2a3b1 were two minor lineages spread within an R1a-dominant population during the Indo-Aryan invasions of South Asia approximately 3,500 years ago.
Another conceivable possibility is that a minority of J2b2, G2a3b1 and R1b-M269 from the Caucasus region migrated to the Volga-Ural region in the early Bronze Age, propagating with them the Proto-Indo-European language and bronze technology to the Caspian steppe before the expansion of this new culture to Central and South Asia. The drawback of this hypothesis is that it doesn't explain why R1b lineages strongly outnumber J2b2 and G2a3b1 in Europe but not in South Asia.
Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Pontic steppes via the Balkans. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1b-L23 and/or R1a. The Thracians, who emerged as a blend of Indo-European R1a and Neolithic I2a1b, are also responsible for the higher density of I2a1b and R1a in northern Greece.
Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.
And yet the Minoans (2000 - 1400 BC ) are not the first or only Greeks.
The oldest evidence of inhabitants on Crete are preceramic Neolithic farming community remains that date to approximately 7000 BCE.[13] A comparative study of DNA haplogroups of modern Cretan men showed that a male founder group, from Anatolia or the Levant, is shared with the Greeks.
The Mycenaean conquest of the Minoans occurred in Late Minoan II period. The Mycenaeans were a military civilization. Using their functional navy and a well-equipped army they were capable of an invasion. Mycenaean weaponry has been found in burials on Crete.
Mycenaean Greece refers to the last phase of the Bronze Age in Ancient Greece (c. 1600–1100 BCE). It represents the first advanced civilization in mainland Greece, with its palatial states, urban organization, works of art and writing system.
Mycenaean Greece perished with the collapse of Bronze-Age culture in the eastern Mediterranean. Various theories have been proposed for the end of this civilization, among them the Dorian invasion or activities connected to the “Sea People”. Additional theories such as natural disasters and climatic changes have been also suggested. The Mycenaean period became the historical setting of much ancient Greek literature and mythology, including the Trojan Epic Cycle.
During this period, the Mycenaean centers witnessed increased contacts with the outside world and especially with the Cyclades and the Minoan centers in the island of Crete.[1][23] Mycenaean presence appears to be also depicted in a fresco at Akrotiri, on Thera island, which possibly displays many warriors in Boar's tusk helmets, a feature typical of Mycenaean warfare. Marching soldiers observed by a female figure, in a krater of c. 1200 BC in Mycenae.
Collapse (c. 1250–1100 BC)
In c. 1250 BC, the first wave of destruction has been witnessed in various centers of mainland Greece for reasons that cannot be identified by archaeologists. In Boeotia, Thebes was burnt to the ground, around that year or slightly later. Nearby Orchomenos shared the same fate, while the Boeotian fortifications of Gla were deserted.[54] In the Peloponnese, a number of buildings surrounding the citadel of Mycenae were attacked and burnt.
The reasons that lead to the collapse of the Mycenaean culture have been hotly debated among scholars. At present, there is no satisfactory explanation for the collapse of the Mycenaean palace systems. The two most common theories are population movement and internal conflict. The first attributes the destruction of Mycenaean sites to invaders.[63] The hypothesis of a Dorian invasion, known as such in Ancient Greek tradition, that led to the end of Mycenaean Greece, is supported by sporadic archaeological evidence such as new types of burials, in particular cist graves, and the use of a new dialect of Greek, the Doric one.
Despite nearly 200 years of investigation, the actuality of the Dorian invasion has never been established.
The first widespread use of the term "Dorian invasion" appears to date to the 1830s. A popular alternative was the "Dorian migration". 6th-century cup from Laconia, the very center of the classical Dorians, representing Nike, the goddess of victory, attending upon a Spartan warrior.
The Greek Dark Age or Ages and Geometric or Homeric Age (ca. 1100–800 BC) are terms that have regularly been used to refer to the period of Greek history from the presumed Dorian invasion and end of the Mycenaean palatial civilization around 1100 BC, to the first signs of the Greek poleis in the 9th century BC.
With the collapse of the palatial centres, no more monumental stone buildings were built and the practice of wall painting may have ceased; writing in the Linear B script ceased, vital trade links were lost, and towns and villages were abandoned. The population of Greece was reduced,[5] and the world of organized state armies, kings, officials, and redistributive systems disappeared. Most of the information about the period comes from burial sites and the grave goods contained within them.
However these small tribes began to form one of Greece's greatest political achievements: the 'polis', meaning the city-state, which is what the word 'politics' is derived from. From around 800 B.C. trade flourished between the communities as market places were built up in the villages, and they began working together to form defensive units and fortifications. In this way the Greek people developed to have strong city-states as their political centers.
The Archaic Period in Greece refers to the years between 750 and 480 B.C., more particularly from 620 to 480 B.C. The age is defined through the development of art at this time, specifically through the style of pottery and sculpture, showing the specific characteristics that would later be developed into the more naturalistic style of the Classical period. The Archaic is one of five periods that Ancient Greek history can be divided into; it was preceded by the Dark Ages and followed by the Classical period. The Archaic period saw advancements in political theory, especially the beginnings of democracy, as well as in culture and art. The knowledge and use of written language which was lost in the Dark Ages was re-established.
Classical Period (500-336 BC) - Classical period of ancient Greek history, is fixed between about 500 B. C., when the Greeks began to come into conflict with the kingdom of Persia to the east, and the death of the Macedonian king and conqueror Alexander the Great in 323 B.C. In this period Athens reached its greatest political and cultural heights: the full development of the democratic system of government under the Athenian statesman Pericles; the building of the Parthenon on the Acropolis; the creation of the tragedies of Sophocles, Aeschylus and Euripides; and the founding of the philosophical schools of Socrates and Plato.
Hellenistic Period (336-146 BC) - period between the conquest of the Persian Empire by Alexander the Great and the establishment of Roman supremacy, in which Greek culture and learning were pre-eminent in the Mediterranean and Asia Minor. It is called Hellenistic (Greek, Hellas, "Greece") to distinguish it from the Hellenic culture of classical Greece.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
the lioness my arguement was its realism not its race it looks too advance for that time
before we verify everything you posted
How do we know it was not sculpted in the renaissance?
ill admit im proud of you you actually are addressing my question instead of posting irrelevant pictures perhaps i need to hurt your feelings more often
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: the lioness my arguement was its realism not its race it looks too advance for that time
before we verify everything you posted
How do we know it was not sculpted in the renaissance?
ill admit im proud of you you actually are addressing my question instead of posting irrelevant pictures perhaps i need to hurt your feelings more often
Perhaps you should take classes in classical art?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
How on earth do these threads even exist? The Greeks were undeniably European - linguistically, genetically and culturally related to other Europeans before Africans. Why would anyone want to appropriate Greek history and heritage? We have our own history in the Nile Valley
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
ish gebor "Perhaps you should take classes in classical art?"
modern scholars base classical art off a theory the renaissance art work was similar to what they called "classical art"
how do we know "classical art" is even "classical?" the very word classical is dealing with class which is someones social status
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: ish gebor "Perhaps you should take classes in classical art?"
modern scholars base classical art off a theory the renaissance art work was similar to what they called "classical art"
how do we know "classical art" is even "classical?" the very word classical is dealing with class which is someones social status
Wow you solved a problem in 5 minutes, that otherwise takes 4 years of training. Which that set of skills you can easily become an art curator.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: How on earth do these threads even exist? The Greeks were undeniably European - linguistically, genetically and culturally related to other Europeans before Africans. Why would anyone want to appropriate Greek history and heritage? We have our own history in the Nile Valley
I have no idea? But these folks here defenitly cane from Asia minor.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: How on earth do these threads even exist? The Greeks were undeniably European - linguistically, genetically and culturally related to other Europeans before Africans. Why would anyone want to appropriate Greek history and heritage? We have our own history in the Nile Valley
He,he,he,he:
Another one?
sudaniya - Either you are an extremely ignorant Negro, or you are another silly Albino faking Black: like lioness, who has fooled us for years (wink,wink).
On the off chance that you are really a Negro, please read the linked material before posting again.
quote:Originally posted by Mindovermatter: ^^False, there is no record of the Ancient Greeks calling themselves White.
Infact when Whites showed up in Northern and Central Europe, the Greeks saw them as an entirely separate race.
Therefore the Ancient Greeks could not have been white!
The Project Gutenberg Etext of Anabasis by Xenophon Translation by H. G. Dakyns
Xenophon the Athenian was born 431 B.C. He was a pupil of Socrates. He marched with the Spartans, and was exiled from Athens. Sparta gave him land and property in Scillus, where he lived for many years before having to move once more, to settle in Corinth. He died in 354 B.C. The Anabasis is his story of the march to Persia to aid Cyrus, who enlisted Greek help to try and take the throne from Artaxerxes, and the ensuing return of the Greeks, in which Xenophon played a leading role. This occurred between 401 B.C. and March 399 B.C.
[3] I.e. "chestnuts."
The Hellenes (GREEKS) breakfasted and then started forward on their march, having first delivered the stronghold to their allies among the Mossynoecians. As for the other strongholds belonging to tribes allied with their foes, which they passed en route, the most accessible were either deserted by their inhabitants or gave in their adhesion 30 voluntarily. The following description will apply to the majority of them: the cities were on an average ten miles apart, some more, some less; but so elevated is the country and intersected by such deep clefts that if they chose to shout across to one another, their cries would be heard from one city to another. When, in the course of their march, they came upon a friendly population, these would entertain them with exhibitions of fatted children belonging to the wealthy classes, fed up on boiled chestnuts until they were as white as white can be, of skin plump and delicate, and very nearly as broad as they were long, with their backs variegated and their breasts tattooed with patterns of all sorts of flowers. They sought after the women in the Hellenic army, and would fain have laid with them openly in broad daylight, for that was their custom. The whole community, male and female alike, were fair-complexioned and white-skinned. It was agreed that this was the most barbaric and outlandish people that they had passed through on the whole expedition, and the furthest removed from the Hellenic customsPosts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Project Gutenberg Etext of Hellenica by Xenophon Translation by H. G. Dakyns
I.e. at Ephesus.
But contempt for one's enemy will infuse a kind of strength in battle. So the Spartan leader argued; and with a view to its production he ordered the quartermasters to put up the prisoners who had been captured by his foraging bands for auction, stripped naked; so that his Hellenic soldiery, as they looked at the white skins which had never been bared to sun and wind, the soft limbs unused to toil through constant riding in carriages, came to the conclusion that war with such adversaries would differ little from a fight with women. Dascylium (near modern day Ergili, Turkey)
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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