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Originally posted by Djehuti:
I know first hand from my college days how anthropology departments house many ideologues, some of whom have ideologies that are not much different from the Nazi Ahnenerbe! For example, I even had a professor who was a Solutreanist who believed Kennewick Man to be a lost Nordic ancestor! LOL The old guy even wore his hair long in Native American style even though he claims to be of pure Scandinavian descent.

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Posts: 7072 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Posted by Djehuti
I don't disagree with your assessment above. By "authorities" I don't mean the owners of the museums or even private collectors themselves per say. Perhaps it is due to the problem of funding since it seems a lot more is done to document and digitize ancient Egyptian artwork than those of ancient Aegean. I've seen more Aegean fresco pictures in books than I have on the internet though I do have my suspicions. As I've said many times before, the only place where I've seen the extensive murals of Knossos are in the waiting halls of the 'Poseidon's Fury' ride in Universal Studios theme park in Florida. It was an exact duplicate of the one in Crete! So if they could do that in a theme park I don't know why they can't make those murals available in the internet.

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Originally posted by Brandon

That being said, I do think the topic attracts a lot of amateurs with questionable opinions and agendas. We all know how Eurocentric a lot of the armchair anthropologists you find online (both in forums and on social media) tend to be. In fact, that's often the case with fandoms built around the sciences (e.g. you won't believe how toxic the paleontology fandom can be, although that's off topic for this thread). Academics are far from perfect, of course, but amateur science nerds can be absolutely nuts sometimes.

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Originally posted by Askia_The_Great

I always found it crazy how ancient writers who would've lived during that time and would've seen Egyptians are boldly dismissed even in academia. Its to the point that historians like Herodotus are not just seen as "afrocentric" but are flat out vilified!

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
And here is an interesting passage from Aeschylus's play 'The Suppliant Maidens' that Tukukler first cited..

A native of Argos, Greece makes this descriptive remark about the Libyan Dainades:

O stranger maids, I may not trust this word,
That ye have share in this our Argive race.
No likeness of our country do ye bear,
But semblance as of Libyan womankind.
Even such a stock by Nilus' banks might grow;
Yea, and the Cyprian stamp, in female forms,
Shows, to the life, what males impressed the same.
And, furthermore, of roving Indian maids
Whose camping-grounds by Aethiopia lie,
And camels burdened even as mules, and bearing
Riders, as horses bear, mine ears have heard;
And tales of flesh-devouring mateless maids
Called Amazons: to these, if bows ye bare,
I most had deemed you like. Speak further yet,
That of your Argive birth the truth I learn.

Note all the peoples the Argive listed who match the dark/black appearance of the Dainades!

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
I know first hand from my college days how anthropology departments house many ideologues, some of whom have ideologies that are not much different from the Nazi Ahnenerbe! For example, I even had a professor who was a Solutreanist who believed Kennewick Man to be a lost Nordic ancestor! LOL The old guy even wore his hair long in Native American style even though he claims to be of pure Scandinavian descent.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Swenet:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
And here is an interesting passage from Aeschylus's play 'The Suppliant Maidens' that Tukukler first cited..

A native of Argos, Greece makes this descriptive remark about the Libyan Dainades:

O stranger maids, I may not trust this word,
That ye have share in this our Argive race.
No likeness of our country do ye bear,
But semblance as of Libyan womankind.
Even such a stock by Nilus' banks might grow;
Yea, and the Cyprian stamp, in female forms,
Shows, to the life, what males impressed the same.
And, furthermore, of roving Indian maids
Whose camping-grounds by Aethiopia lie,
And camels burdened even as mules, and bearing
Riders, as horses bear, mine ears have heard;
And tales of flesh-devouring mateless maids
Called Amazons: to these, if bows ye bare,
I most had deemed you like. Speak further yet,
That of your Argive birth the truth I learn.

Note all the peoples the Argive listed who match the dark/black appearance of the Dainades!

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Thanks for that text. Did you notice that post-Minoan - Sedment cluster? It only happens in the male dendrogram (making it stand out, all the more). I'd have to look into it more closely to really form an opinion on what that cluster is about, but based on the the date ('post-Minoan') it could possibly relate to the Hellenic memory of Danaos as a patriarch of African settlers in the Aegean.

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Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Yeah, that's the thing when Eurocentrism is not as "aggressive" or overt like a Nazi or something, it tends to get ignored. During my time as an undergrad student in the anthropology department I was well aware of the Solutrean Hypothesis and the type of mentality it entailed while other students were totally oblivious. I try to be as objective as I can about the situation and imagine how people would react if a black professor started dressing as a Meso-American person due to the Afro-Olmec Hypothesis. Suffice to say I have NEVER heard of the latter situation only the Pro-Solutrean professors.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
That's the thing. We never hear about what the actual situation was in the Aegean whether Neolithic or Bronze Age. When it comes to legends, we only hear about the Homeric Iliad and Odyssey but never about the 'Suppliant Maidens' or the lost epic Aethiopica. Speaking of which note how in the description of the Danaide, reference is made not only to Libyans and Nilotes, but Cyprians of Cyprus and Indians and Aethiopians, the latter are said to reside next to Indians which suggests this is NOT African Ethiopia but somewhere close to India whose people ride camels, mules, and horses. This sounds like Arabia. Not to mention the cannibalistic Amazons of Tritonis (the Maghreb).

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Dr. Sally Ann-Ashton of the Fitzwilliam Museum whom Ausar-Imhotep interviewed whose specialty was 'Classics' (Greco-Roman period) always said that there was a disconnect between her sub-field and the rest of Egyptology. I mean from what I can tell it was always a given the "black" identity of the Egyptians according to the Greeks and Romans yet there seems to be little to no talk about it. Dr. Ashton says that she and her peers were taught to never make a big deal about it which is strange considering that outside of her department "race" has always been an issue when it comes to the Egyptians.

To be honest I get sick and tired of the racial issue myself but it seems the Eurasiocentrics are hellbent on white-washing all of the Nile Valley not just Egypt.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Thereal:

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Antalas wrote:
Sally Ann-Ashton is driven by political motives and is far from being impartial. She describes her own blog as " African Centred Egyptology ". Literally 3/4 of her articles if not more revolve around the topics of race and skin color. She appears to have a rather unusual fixation on blacks

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Is that "pot calling the kettle Black?" Oops! I mean Afrocentric, I mean Black washing. Damn! I mean something Sub Sahara African.🙄🙄🙄

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Right! So whites classifying Africans as "caucasoid" or "white" for decades is no issue but when a few whites dare to say that's wrong, they were blacks then they have an "unusual fixation on blacks". LMAO

And what of all the evidence that Swenet and I have brought up that not only were indigenous North Africans "black" but that they spilled out into Europe and Southwest Asia. Is that an unhealthy fixation with blacks too?? I take it Hebrew authors of the Bible and Greek authors like Aeschylus were "fixated on blacks" too since they described black people in neighboring regions. GTFOH

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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Caphtor

CAPHTOR.The region whence the Philistines came to Palestine (Amo 9:7, Jer 47:4). Hence in Deu 2:23 Caphtorim means the Philistines. In Gen 10:14 Caphtorim is used of the country itself in place of Caphtor; it should be placed in the text immediately after Casluhim. Many identifications of Caphtor have been attempted. The favourite theory has been that it means the island of Crete (cf. Cherethites). Next in favour is the view that Caphtor was the coast of the Egyptian Delta. It has also been identified with Cyprus. The correct theory is suggested by inscriptions of Ramses III. of Egypt (c [Note: circa, about.] . b.c. 1200), who tells of his having repelled a great invasion by enemies who had entered Syria and Palestine from the north. The leaders of these barbarians were called Purusati, which (Egyp. r being Sem. l) is equivalent to the Heh. Pelisht. Connecting these facts with the circumstance that the southern coast of Asia Minor, more especially Cilicia, was called Kefto or Kafto in the Egyptian inscriptions, it appears very probable that this Kafto and Caphtor are identical. The further conjecture might be hazarded that the writing of the Hebrew waw as a vowel-letter in an original Kafto gave rise to the additional rsh. Compare the similar case Ashkenaz.

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The migration of the Philistines is mentioned or alluded to in all the passages speaking of Caphtor or the Caphtorim. It thus appears to have been an event of great importance, and this supposition receives support from the statement in Amos. In the lists of Genesis and Chronicles, as the text now stands, the Philistines are said to have come forth from the Casluhim ‘the Casluhim, whence came forth the Philistines and the Caphtorim’ where the Hebrews forbids us to suppose that the Philistines and Caphtorim both came from the Casluhim. Here there seems to have been a transposition, for the other passages are as explicit, or more so, and their form does not admit of this explanation. The period of the migration must have been very remote, since the Philistines were already established in Palestine in Abraham’s time (Gen 21:32; Gen 21:34).

The evidence of the Egyptian monuments, which is indirect tends to the same conclusion, but takes us yet farther back in time. It leads us to suppose that the Philistines and kindred nations were cognate to the Egyptians, but so different from them in manners that they must have separated before the character and institutions of the latter had attained that development in which they continued throughout the period to which their monuments belong. We find from the sculptures of Rameses III at Medinet Ab that the Egyptians, about 1200 B.C., were at war with the Philistines, the Tok-karu, and the Shayratana of the Sea, and that other Shayratana served them as mercenaries.: The Philistines and Tok-karu were physically cognate, and had the same distinctive dress; the Tokkaru and Shayratana were also physically cognate, and fought together in the same ships. There is reason to believe that the Tok-karu are the Carians, and the Shayratana have been held to be the Cherethim of the Bible and the earlier Cretans of the Greeks, inhabiting Crete, and probably the coast of Palestine also (Encyclop. Brit. s.v. Egypt, p. 462). All bear a greater resemblance to the Egyptians than does any other group of foreign peoples represented in their sculptures. This evidence points, therefore, to the spread of a seafaring race cognate to the Egyptians at a very remote time. Their origin is not alone spoken of in the record of the migration of the Philistines, but in the tradition of the Phoenicians that they came from the Erythraean Sea, SEE ARABIA, and we must look for the primeval seat of the whole race on the coasts of Arabia and Africa, where all ancient authorities lead us mainly to place the Cushites and the Ethiopians. SEE CUSH.

The difference of the Philistines from the Egyptians in dress and manners is, as we have seen, evident on the Egyptian monuments. From the Bible we learn that their laws and religion were likewise different from those of Egypt, and we may therefore consider our previous supposition as to the time of the separation of the peoples to which they belong to be positively true in their particular case. It is probable that they left Caphtor not long after the first arrival of the Mizraite tribes, while they had not yet attained that attachment to the soil that afterward so eminently characterized the descendants of those which formed the Egyptian nation. The words of the prophet Amos (9:7) seem to indicate a deliverance of the Philistines from bondage. The mention of the Ethiopians there is worthy of note: they are perhaps spoken of as a degraded people. The intention appears to be to show that Israel was not the only nation which had been providentially led from one country to another where it might settle, and the interposition would seem to imply oppression preceding the migration. It may be remarked that Manetho speaks of a revolt and return to allegiance of the Libyans, probably the Lehalim, or Lubim, from whose name Libya, etc., certainly came, in the reign of the first king of the third dynasty, Necherphs or Necherchis, in the earliest age of Egyptian history, B.C. cir. 2600 (Cory, Anc. Frao. 2d ed. p. 100, 101).” SEE PHILISTINE.

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This article provides an overview of the first results from the archaeological fieldwork ­conducted at Tell el-Samara by a joint IFAO and Egyptian Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities mission. Located in the eastern Nile Delta, Tell el-Samara was a settlement inhabited from the late 5h millennium BCE to the end of the Early Dynastic period. The renewed archaeological investigations on the tell have uncovered the remains of one of the most ancient villages known so far in Egypt—providing detailed insights into the onset of Neolithic economy and sedentary village life in Lower Egypt. They have also revealed a continuous occupation sequence from the Neolithic period to the advent of the 1st Dynasty, which provides relevant data on the emergence and further development of a regional culture in the Nile Delta prior to the rise of a monarchy and the political unification of Egypt at the turn of the fourth and 3rd millennium BCE.

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Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Here is a comparison between an ancient Egyptian painting and a modern farmer from outside Cairo. Not very different. So the idea that the ancient Egyptians just disappeared and was replaced by "white" invaders do not hold up. There have occurred mixing with immigrating and invading peoples but there are still people who seem to correspond with the ancient ones.

Also one could caution about making too many claims about todays North African populations and their phenotypes without having visited any of those countries. It is something one see a lot on the internet among people who in a confident tone tell us how North Africans look like. It can be hard to get a good overview based only on books or information from the net.

I have myself seen a lot of claims on the net that do not correspond at all with what I have seen in different countries. One claim I remember is that the Terracotta Warriors in Xían, China should depict black people and originally been painted black. I have seen them, some of them in close up and have them explained by Chinese archaeologists so those crazy claims on the net can only come from people who never visited China or saw those statues (or people who did but choose to lie about it).

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Posts: 2498 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Tazarah:

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Here is a comparison between an ancient Egyptian painting and a modern farmer from outside Cairo. Not very different. So the idea that the ancient Egyptians just disappeared and was replaced by "white" invaders do not hold up. There have occurred mixing with immigrating and invading peoples but there are still people who seem to correspond with the ancient ones.

Also one could caution about making too many claims about todays North African populations and their phenotypes without having visited any of those countries. It is something one see a lot on the internet among people who in a confident tone tell us how North Africans look like. It can be hard to get a good overview based only on books or information from the net.

I have myself seen a lot of claims on the net that do not correspond at all with what I have seen in different countries. One claim I remember is that the Terracotta Warriors in Xían, China should depict black people and originally been painted black. I have seen them, some of them in close up and have them explained by Chinese archaeologists so those crazy claims on the net can only come from people who never visited China or saw those statues (or people who did but choose to lie about it).

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The man on the right has completely different facial features than what is shown in the painting.

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Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Colorlines in Classical North Africa

Anyway, Dr. Futo like many other Classicists make it clear that the so-called 'colorline' separating 'white' from 'black' did not begin "south of the Sahara" as many Euronuts would have everyone believe but began in the Mediterranean Sea.

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Merriam-Webster Dictionary

color line
noun
variants US color line or British colour line
pluralcolor lines
: a set of societal or legal barriers that segregates people of color from white people (as by restricting social interaction or requiring separate facilities) and prevents people of color from exercising the same rights and accessing the same opportunities as white people —usually used with the

His father … had grown up in California with Jackie Robinson, who broke the color line in Major League Baseball.
—Maureen O'Donnell

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Posts: 42923 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Tazarah:

The man on the right has completely different facial features than what is shown in the painting.

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:

In a future where more extensive comparative genetic studies can be conducted in Egypt, we may find out more details about different ancestry and different groups relatedness to each other. For example which differences could one see in the genetics of people in upper Egypt and people in the Delta? There is work being done in the Delta where Neolithic sites are found and excavated. Also skeletons are found. But it seems no genetic studies have been done yet. We will see if Egyptian authorities will allow such studies in the future.

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This article provides an overview of the first results from the archaeological fieldwork ­conducted at Tell el-Samara by a joint IFAO and Egyptian Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities mission. Located in the eastern Nile Delta, Tell el-Samara was a settlement inhabited from the late 5h millennium BCE to the end of the Early Dynastic period. The renewed archaeological investigations on the tell have uncovered the remains of one of the most ancient villages known so far in Egypt—providing detailed insights into the onset of Neolithic economy and sedentary village life in Lower Egypt. They have also revealed a continuous occupation sequence from the Neolithic period to the advent of the 1st Dynasty, which provides relevant data on the emergence and further development of a regional culture in the Nile Delta prior to the rise of a monarchy and the political unification of Egypt at the turn of the fourth and 3rd millennium BCE.

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Investigating the Nile Delta’s First Settlements: Excavations at Tell el-Samara 2016-2019 BIFAO 2022

Oldest Neolithic village in Egypt’s Nile Delta uncovered - Egypt Independent 2018

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That's a 3D interactive PCA (Principal Component Analysis) based on autosomal SNPs made by David Wesolowski who authors the Eurogenes genome blog and ancestry project. What's particularly interesting to me about it are the PCA positions of the Natufians and the Neolithic Levantines... With the *former group pulling southwards toward African populations such as North, East & West-Central Africans.*

Eurogenes ANE K7

ENF: 77%
WHG-UHG: 16%
East African: 8%


Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer

Middle Eastern Herder: 64%
Mediterranean Farmer: 30%
East African Pastoralist: 7%


Eurogenes K12b

Southwest Asian: 54%
Mediterranean: 38%
East African: 8%

That pull along with the above ADMIXTURE results (via Gedmatch) of one Natufian seem to contradict what Lazaridis et al. was saying about the Natufians lacking African admixture but I would caution against using modern PCA positions (like those of Bedouins) and, of course, modern ADMIXTURE runs (with modern clusters based on modern genetic diversity) to gauge how "African" or "Eurasian/Out-of-Africa" an ~11,000-14,000 year old population was.

I.e. These Natufians are, of course, not "Southwest Asian" + "Mediterranean" but, instead, they're just showing the greatest affinity for these modern clusters. As in, populations probably quite like them to some degree; contributed to the formation of clusters like Southwest Asian & Mediterranean. But, it's still strange that they'd show such an affinity for an African cluster like the East African one.

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Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

The man on the right has completely different facial features than what is shown in the painting. So what?! They're both 'black' people by today's standards. If you're hung up on something as trivial as facial features then you're going to lose to the Euronut warriors.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: The skeletal remains of the Delta have already been classified as African.

..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans.
[Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation". (2005) Routledge. p.52-60]

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The Merimde specimens were tall, with a mean femur length in males of 47.1 cms, compared to 43.6cm at Maadi and 44.7 cm at Byblos (Fig 6.2). They also had long narrow crania, moderately long faces and narrow noses. The last two features distinguish them from Predynastic populations and align them more closely both with later Dynastic populations and with the southern Levant (fig. 6.3). Beck and Klug (1990) described the Maadi and Wadi Digla samples as showing long narrow crania and short faces similar to those of other Predynastic sites in Egypt, but resembling some sites in the Levant in nasal and orbital characteristics.

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Limb length proportions in males from Maadi and Merimde group them with African rather than European populations. [...] reinforcing the impression of an african rather than a levantine affinity.

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The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat . Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature-namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “superCarpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid.

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Morphologically, both groups belong to a relatively robust type.…Differences between the Maadi and Wadi Digla series in regard to metric features could not be statistically proven. The results of the supraregional population comparison pointed to similarities with the Palestinian area [Gaza, Israel, the West Bank] in regard to several metric variables …though a clear relationship with Egyptian comparison groups was demonstratable.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: As far as genetics is concerned, uniparentals show them to be overwhelmingly African (Y-DNA E-M35 & mt M1 and L2). The only thing left is autosomal DNA which is the only thing left in debate and for obvious reasons. The autosomal DNA shows Natufian/Neolithic Levantine affiliations which many identify as "Eurasian".

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However, nearly all of the remains excavated in the Northern part of the continent belong to Eurasian mtDNA lineages [63,67,74,89,90]. [74]). In fact, of the 114 mtDNA genomes now available from northern African ancient human remains, only one belongs to an African lineage (L3 observed in a skeleton from Abusir el-Meleq The deep presence of Eurasian mtDNA lineages in Northern Africa has, therefore, been clearly established with these recent reports and offers further support for the authenticity of the Eurasian mtDNA sequence observed in the Djehutynakht mummy

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We now focus on widening the geographic scope to give a general overview of the population genetic background, focusing on mitochondrial haplogroups present among the whole Egyptian Nile River Valley. We collected 81 tooth, hair, bone, and soft tissue samples from 14 mummies and 17 skeletal remains. The samples span approximately 4000 years of Egyptian history and originate from six different excavation sites covering the whole length of the Egyptian Nile River Valley. NGS based ancient DNA 8 were applied to reconstruct 18 high-quality mitochondrial genomes from 10 different individuals. The determined mitochondrial haplogroups match the results from our Abusir el-Meleq study . Our results indicate very low rates of modern DNA contamination independent of the tissue type.

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The proposed sibling relationship between Tutankhamun’s parents, KV55 (Akhenaten) and KV35YL, is further supported. The royal lineage is composed of the Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b and the mitochondrial haplogroup K. Population genetics point to a common origin at ca. 14. 000–28. 000 years before present locating to the Near East.

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The great-grandfather of Tutankhamun, Yuya, carries a Y-chromosomal signature that could be assigned to the haplogroup G2a. Haplogroup G is an F-affiliated clade (Luis et al. 2004, 532–544; Wood et al. 2005, 867–876), and it is defined by the mutation M201 (Cinnioǧlu et al. 2004, 127–148; Luis et al. 2004, 532–544; Wood et al. 2005, 867–876; Karafet et al. 2008, 830–838). This clade is not globally abundant, and its prevalence is mainly in the Middle East (highest in Druze), the Mediterranean basin and Caucasus Mountains where it exhibits its maximum frequency (Cinnioǧlu et al. 2004, 127–148; Karafet et al. 2008, 830–838; Balanovsky et al. 2011, 18255–18259; Lacan et al. 2011, 2905–2920). The pattern of this haplogroup distribution in the Caucasus suggests a Near Eastern origin (Cinnioǧlu et al. 2004, 127–148; Balanovsky et al. 2011, 18255–18259). The genetic share of the F-affiliated groups (G, H, I, J) is around 40% of the modern Egyptians, with G-M201 representing approximately 9% of the population (Luis et al. 2004, 532–544).

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Yet as Ethio-Helix has pointed out:

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That's a 3D interactive PCA (Principal Component Analysis) based on autosomal SNPs made by David Wesolowski who authors the Eurogenes genome blog and ancestry project. What's particularly interesting to me about it are the PCA positions of the Natufians and the Neolithic Levantines... With the *former group pulling southwards toward African populations such as North, East & West-Central Africans.*

Eurogenes ANE K7

ENF: 77%
WHG-UHG: 16%
East African: 8%


Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer

Middle Eastern Herder: 64%
Mediterranean Farmer: 30%
East African Pastoralist: 7%


Eurogenes K12b

Southwest Asian: 54%
Mediterranean: 38%
East African: 8%

That pull along with the above ADMIXTURE results (via Gedmatch) of one Natufian seem to contradict what Lazaridis et al. was saying about the Natufians lacking African admixture but I would caution against using modern PCA positions (like those of Bedouins) and, of course, modern ADMIXTURE runs (with modern clusters based on modern genetic diversity) to gauge how "African" or "Eurasian/Out-of-Africa" an ~11,000-14,000 year old population was.

I.e. These Natufians are, of course, not "Southwest Asian" + "Mediterranean" but, instead, they're just showing the greatest affinity for these modern clusters. As in, populations probably quite like them to some degree; contributed to the formation of clusters like Southwest Asian & Mediterranean. But, it's still strange that they'd show such an affinity for an African cluster like the East African one.

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It's not strange at all if one remembers that there was greater genetic diversity among human populations before the Holocene than today and such was likely the case as it pertains to African populations.

Remember that ANA (Ancestral North African) was originally mistaken to be "Eurasian" as well. LOL It's only going to be a matter of time that this Natufain/Levantine Neolithic as the only hope left of "Hamitic Hypothesis" fails. [/QB]

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Lmao what you posted literally shows that their african admixture was extremely low ...Modern North Africans literally have more XD


Natufian ancestry peaks in modern day arabs and Natufians didn't cluster with any SSA population :

Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:

Lmao what you posted literally shows that their african admixture was extremely low ...Modern North Africans literally have more XD

Natufian ancestry peaks in modern day arabs and Natufians didn't cluster with any SSA population :

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Antalas, nobody with moderate intelligence is falling for the the "SSA" a.k.a. IBD Yoruban strawman.

By your logic then, northeast Siberians (and their Eskimo cousins across the straits) have no East Asian ancestry as well if that is to be identified with Chinese.





LMAO indeed! It seems the only one you're fooling is yourself!

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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Djehuti

The question of Egyptian self-identity is in my view a complex subject that has a lot of loose ends that would benefit from the excavation of more texts. And even then there may be no guarantee they are going to reflect anthropological reality. For instance, if the phrase T3 Ntr has literal anthro value, parts of Syria (and southern lands on both sides of the Red Sea) could potentially have been considered by AE as ancestral land at some point in their history, by some members of Egyptian society. In that case one would find a self-identity that has drifted from anthropological reality possibly due religious reasons (e.g. they procrured sacred timber and incense from Lebanon). Then there is the unique social organization of Egyptian society around nomes, where different nomes may have had self-identities and myths and legends co-existing even though being in contradiction.

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Posts: 7072 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by BrandonP:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Djehuti

The question of Egyptian self-identity is in my view a complex subject that has a lot of loose ends that would benefit from the excavation of more texts. And even then there may be no guarantee they are going to reflect anthropological reality. For instance, if the phrase T3 Ntr has literal anthro value, parts of Syria (and southern lands on both sides of the Red Sea) could potentially have been considered by AE as ancestral land at some point in their history, by some members of Egyptian society. In that case one would find a self-identity that has drifted from anthropological reality possibly due religious reasons (e.g. they procrured sacred timber and incense from Lebanon). Then there is the unique social organization of Egyptian society around nomes, where different nomes may have had self-identities and myths and legends co-existing even though being in contradiction.

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This is a good point you raise here. Myths and legends can sometimes refer to real phenomena, but they shouldn’t always be taken at face value. A vocal number of Native Americans in the US don’t like the idea that their ancestors came from anywhere outside the Americas since that contradicts certain creation myths of theirs. Now, while I can understand why indigenous people might not like condescending White anthropologists contradicting them on their own past, you have to admit Natives had to have come from somewhere outside the Americas if they are human like the rest of us.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Antalas, nobody with moderate intelligence is falling for the the "SSA" a.k.a. IBD Yoruban strawman.

By your logic then, northeast Siberians (and their Eskimo cousins across the straits) have no East Asian ancestry as well if that is to be identified with Chinese.


LMAO indeed! It seems the only one you're fooling is yourself!

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Or Ust Ishim possibly having the blue eye mutation at 45ky ago, according to the recent Russian article, which is dangerously close to the 55ky OOA date, indicating it did not originate with WHG and that we may need introgression to explain this trait if that remaining 10ky time window keeps shortening. Etc.

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Posts: 7072 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by BrandonP:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Or Ust Ishim possibly having the blue eye mutation at 45ky ago, according to the recent Russian article, which is dangerously close to the 55ky OOA date, indicating it did not originate with WHG and that we may need introgression to explain this trait if that remaining 10ky time window keeps shortening. Etc.

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I once drew an Aurignacian person with blue eyes, and a criticism I got was that blue eyes in modern humans would have evolved much more recently in the Black Sea area. Finding out that there were blue eyes among UP Eurasians that far back feels vindicating for me. Would be nice to see if its presence in modern Europeans is the result of admixture with another hominin population (Neanderthals, perhaps?).

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Anyway nobody has denied that Natufians had some "African" admixture. As usual you're employing a straw man argument here. As I mentioned before, their African ancestry is actually quite minimal, even lower than mine XD. They cluster more closely with modern Middle Easterners and even Europeans than SSAs. Yet, you persist in portraying them as if they were more closely related to the latter.

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This suggests Natufians were around 50% of African (male side) ancestry genetically

Posts: 42923 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
More evidence that so-called "colorlines" were in the Mediterranean itself.

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Posts: 42923 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:

What are you even talking about? It's quite interesting how you seem to be overlooking all the evidence I've presented. Anyway nobody has denied that Natufians had some "African" admixture. As usual you're employing a straw man argument here. As I mentioned before, their African ancestry is actually quite minimal, even lower than mine XD. They cluster more closely with modern Middle Easterners and even Europeans than SSAs. Yet, you persist in portraying them as if they were more closely related to the latter.

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That you don't know what I mean by the post I made on Asian genetic diversity shows that either you are just dumb OR suffering from severe denial. Your pigeonholing African genetic diversity is the same as one claiming that Evenks and Inuit are not Asian because autosomally they are totally different from Chinese. Nobody uses Chinese as representative of East Asian the way Yoruba IDB is used for all Sub-Saharans let alone Africans in general.



^ Note the wide autosomal distance between black Australasians and black Andamanese despite the close geographic distance. And of course the samples labeled "Africans" on the left corner are actually South Africans with West African between the former and North Africans. So just give up. You lost when you began posting in this forum! LOL

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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
That you don't know what I mean by the post I made on Asian genetic diversity shows that either you are just dumb OR suffering from severe denial. Your pigeonholing African genetic diversity is the same as one claiming that Evenks and Inuit are not Asian because autosomally they are totally different from Chinese. Nobody uses Chinese as representative of East Asian the way Yoruba IDB is used for all Sub-Saharans let alone Africans in general.



^ Note the wide autosomal distance between black Australasians and black Andamanese despite the close geographic distance. And of course the samples labeled "Africans" on the left corner are actually South Africans with West African between the former and North Africans. So just give up. You lost when you began posting in this forum! LOL [/QB]

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What does Yoruba have anything to do with this ? Why do you bring south/west african clusters ? This was by no means the focus of my post. It's important to recognize that if two populations are genetically distant, they are indeed genetically differentiated, regardless of their physical resemblances or geographical proximity.


Returning to the topic and my main point, as we can observe, Natufians are notably distant from any African population. Even modern North Africans, including myself, exhibit a closer genetic affinity with SSAs than Natufians :





Now, go fetch those African figs found in the Middle East and the 6% omotic ancestry...

Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ "Natufians are notably distant from any African populations." Any?? So now the Moroccan Iberomaurusian and Moroccan EN in your map are not Africans either?!



I suggest you stop posting in this blog or any blog for that matter and seek psychiatric help.

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Yes natufians are notably distant from my iberomaurusian ancestors too :

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Although, ADMIXTURE analysis pointed to some relationship between IAM and Levantine aDNA samples, especially the Natufians, this is not supported by FST distances .

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:

Yes Natufians are notably distant from my Iberomaurusian ancestors too:

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Yet they are still much closer to each other than West African Yoruba and Bantu speaking Himba of South Africa!



But you have no problem putting both Yoruba and Himba together into a monolithic "Sub-Saharan" grouping!

I thought it was made clear to you before but here it is again from Ethio-helix's article Human Genetic Diversity ≠ Discrete or Pure Races:

Nevertheless, I suppose one could argue that certain populations are genuinely "discrete" in that they have not shared certain ancestries in well over 35,000 years. For instance, this can be said about West-Central Africans when compared to East Asians but here things do get a bit dicey as well since, while you can assume they're discrete from one another, they themselves are probably not, to some great extent, "pure" or mostly pure entities.

By that I mean... They too are probably, in some part, the result of admixture rather than mostly or entirely being linear developments from a singular ancestral population which is how the old racialist model might paint things.

For example, the quite diverse mtDNA profiles (simply based on their non-M&N lineages) of groups like Omotic speaking Southwestern Ethiopians, Niger-Congo speaking West-Central Africans and Nilo-Saharan speaking Southern Sudanese people tend to imply that they are probably the result of admixture between distinct pre-historic populations within Africa itself. [note]

Some of these ancestral populations were possibly even as distinct from each other as the San are from modern West-Central Africans (time divergence appears greater than the time-divergence between West-Central Africans and the Han-Chinese, and genetic drift (based on Fst) is comparable to the drift between the Han-Chinese and the English).

**Groups that would count as "Negroids" within Africa should also not be seen as some sort of genetic monolith. They're not**... And even the old racialist model didn't truly imply as much. There's often a West-Central African cluster ("Niger-Congo" above) and an East African-cluster ("Nilo-Saharan" above) in ADMIXTURE runs, for instance. The Fst between these two clusters, as an example, is a little over 1/2 the Fst between the East Asian and European clusters above.

Also, based on Haplotypic data, the time divergence between some of these "African" ancestries (i.e. the African elements in Somalis and the African elements in Yorubas) implies they possibly haven't shared ancestry in over 30,000-40,000 years or so which is comparable to the, so far, supposed time-divergence between ENAs and the ancestors of European Hunter-Gatherers.

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Iberomaurusians appear closer to Natufians primarily due to shared ancestry and their non-African ancestry. You're totally humiliated once again and you can't deny the genetic distinction between Natufians and Africans is undeniable. You won't manipulate and Africanize/blackwash our ancestors to fit your narrative, attempting to appropriate them and dismiss all the genetic and anthropological evidence.

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Again you presume "non-African" ancestry when such has yet to be substantiated unless you disagree with the growing consensus that Basal Eurasian is African. You say there is a distinction between Natufians and Africans yet forget the fact that Egyptians share much of the Natufians' ancestry. But of course Egyptians aren't really African either and neither are the Nubians who also share the same ancestry! LMAO

So no I don't have to "manipulate" anything the way you desperately attempt to distort the findings. No need for me to "Africanize" what is already African and again with that absurd oxymoronic term of "blackwash". You can't wash something "black" but WHITE which is what you are constantly doing. The accurate phrase is 'paint black'. Which I don't have to do because the genetics also show the populations you speak of to be highly melanated.

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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged |