quote:

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Originally posted by Artemi:
katrina and lisane,
Personally I don't think I would feel comfortable in a multiple marriage, but that's just me (and perhaps my western upbringing).
However, I have followed Akshar's story here and on other sites, and am also familiar with (more conventional?) people who have met her and her extended family. Your JUDGEMENTS appear narrowminded and catty.
Obviously, on this board, the second wife is exhibiting a better class of behavior.

[This message has been edited by Artemi (edited 25 March 2004).]

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Artemi

perhaps, no denial of sarcasm here. but please spare all of us from suggesting a similar lifestyle. there was one woman who posted her story and who was afraid she would not be able to have a child, Akshar suggested her to allow her husband to have a second wife. isn't this a narrow-minded advice as well as inconsiderate of that woman's feelings, beliefs, and fears?

But I guess Women's rights has a long way to go withing the Muslim world.

If my wife is muslim I would treat her with the respect she deserves as I would expect in return. The family is like a sacred stone.

I wish more people did research like you before they got involved with someone from another country and much heartbreak could be spared.

There is an excellent book by Muhammad Abdul-Rauf The Islamic View of Women and the Family which discusses this and many other issues which I am sure you would find fascinating. I certainly discussed many of the chapters with my husband before I got married making sure we had common ground on important issues like this.

A note to the more judgemental posters on this thread. This is a forum about Egypt and Brian asked a question about Islam. Your views while interesting were personal and had nothing to do with Islam. Why you should turn this on a personal attack on me is strange and demonstrates a pretty poor level of debate.

You read so many stories on these boards about heartbreak and hurt and a lot of these are from women who try and bring Western ideas into their relationship. If you want to make a success of living here then you will have to ditch a lot of your Western ideas, you have to accept things that are totally foreign to you. Could it be that I am happy here because I have accepted in Egypt I do it their way and do not try and impose my culture on them? Step out of the box and pursue the idea.

Certainly I would offer the suggestion that an older women who can not have children looks into the idea of second wife. If you are big enough to warm to it then it can be a ideal solution and also demonstrates your open mindness about many other aspects of living in Egypt. If you read about Islam then you will know that having children is a religious duty. So how could I make it a stipulation marry me and forget your obligations under Islam. As I have said I am not unique and it was after talking to other women in this situation and seeing their successes that I went for it myself. Of course I would wish to pass on that same chance of happiness to others. If it is not for them fine but if it is then I could be the encouragement they need.

.

quote:

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Originally posted by brian04:
Well guys thanks for all your posts. I have learned alot here from your reading your replies.

But I guess Women's rights has a long way to go withing the Muslim world.

If my wife is muslim I would treat her with the respect she deserves as I would expect in return. The family is like a sacred stone.

Salam,
Brian

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quote:

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Originally posted by akshar:
I am glad that we were able to help you learn. I think it is important that in any multi cultural relationship issues like this are out in the open, discussed and both parties know what they will do as a couple.

I wish more people did research like you before they got involved with someone from another country and much heartbreak could be spared.

There is an excellent book by Muhammad Abdul-Rauf The Islamic View of Women and the Family which discusses this and many other issues which I am sure you would find fascinating. I certainly discussed many of the chapters with my husband before I got married making sure we had common ground on important issues like this.

A note to the more judgemental posters on this thread. This is a forum about Egypt and Brian asked a question about Islam. Your views while interesting were personal and had nothing to do with Islam. Why you should turn this on a personal attack on me is strange and demonstrates a pretty poor level of debate.

You read so many stories on these boards about heartbreak and hurt and a lot of these are from women who try and bring Western ideas into their relationship. If you want to make a success of living here then you will have to ditch a lot of your Western ideas, you have to accept things that are totally foreign to you. Could it be that I am happy here because I have accepted in Egypt I do it their way and do not try and impose my culture on them? Step out of the box and pursue the idea.

Certainly I would offer the suggestion that an older women who can not have children looks into the idea of second wife. If you are big enough to warm to it then it can be a ideal solution and also demonstrates your open mindness about many other aspects of living in Egypt. If you read about Islam then you will know that having children is a religious duty. So how could I make it a stipulation marry me and forget your obligations under Islam. As I have said I am not unique and it was after talking to other women in this situation and seeing their successes that I went for it myself. Of course I would wish to pass on that same chance of happiness to others. If it is not for them fine but if it is then I could be the encouragement they need.

.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by brian04:
[b]Well guys thanks for all your posts. I have learned alot here from your reading your replies.

But I guess Women's rights has a long way to go withing the Muslim world.

If my wife is muslim I would treat her with the respect she deserves as I would expect in return. The family is like a sacred stone.

Salam,
Brian

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[/B][/QUOTE]
Well Akshar,
Thanks for your kind reply. I will definately be reading more on this subject. I agree with you that people who wanna move here (egypt)should do so and at the same time don't impose their western culture or imperalism on their egyptian friends. When in rome......

One more thing I am coming to Egypt in October and want to spend some time Luxor could you please tell more about your apartments.

Salam,
Brian

Salam,
Brian

quote:

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Originally posted by katrina:
[B]akshar
Regardless of all the happiness you describe which as you see we doubt very much even if your case is indeed a unique one....the question still remains, if your husband loves his first wife so much, why does he need to bring the second wife or you? He loves you, we do not need to be reminded of that, but how can he still love his first wife? Did she really have a choice or was she afraid of being dumped by her husband if she said no to his second marriage?

Also how would you feel if your husband brings a third wife to make it even "bigger" B]

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You're being extremely judgemental, and I bet you if someone said I am the first wife, and I agreed for my husband to take a 2nd wife...your arguements would be lost.

If you don't get it, and you want to learn...that's great. But you're just out to prove that you are right all along.

quote:

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Originally posted by ExptinCAI:

There is no right or wrong here. At the end of the day, we're all the same animal, driven by the same instincts.

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quote:

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Originally posted by akshar:

So having accepted that a man can love more than one woman you then have to resolve that need with a social solution that endures stability of the family. In Victorian times the wife turned a blind eye. This is no longer accpetable in the West so you have serial marriages with chidren being left aside as the man moves on to another love.

Islam acknowledges this need and allows the man to meet it but it puts on him heavy responsiblities. He had to make sure that all his wives are treated equally and fairly. I should think that a lot of men would like to do this but because the Prophet has made it conditional and they know they can't do it they don't.

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Ok Jane, I appologize for asking this before reading the rest of this thread, as you may have answered this somewhere in here, but I didn't want to loose this post of yours as it addresses the question I've always had about your marriage.

quote:

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Originally posted by katrina:
akshar

Regardless of all the happiness you describe which as you see we doubt very much even if your case is indeed a unique one....the question still remains, if your husband loves his first wife so much, why does he need to bring the second wife or you? He loves you, we do not need to be reminded of that, but how can he still love his first wife? Did she really have a choice or was she afraid of being dumped by her husband if she said no to his second marriage?

Also how would you feel if your husband brings a third wife to make it even "bigger" family so that you can be even more "happy"?

[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 24 March 2004).]

[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 24 March 2004).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Debbie:
Ok Jane, I appologize for asking this before reading the rest of this thread, as you may have answered this somewhere in here, but I didn't want to loose this post of yours as it addresses the question I've always had about your marriage.

My question is, What reason, as stated in the Koran, can you be married to Mahmoud as a second wife? There are certain qualifications required to allow a man to marry a second wife, no? Such as the first wife is unable to have children. I understand you are a widow, but you weren't exactly a widow about to be thrown out on the street for not being able to pay the rent, so I'm just curious, what passage in the Koran ligitimitizes your marriage? I wasn't aware that the mear fact of loving another was enough to justify a second marriage. Is it?

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All I have been able to glean for my reading of the Koran is when a man is contemplating a second marriage these are the rules and issues he should think about. I haven't found anything that said under what circumstances he is allowed to contemplate it.

BUT I am not a Muslim and nor a scholar of Islam so perphaps this would be better answered by them.

quote:

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Originally posted by EgyptianDoc77:

obviously an excellent question and by the way polygamy was not allowed in islam except under some cirucmstances and conditions.

Also, polygamy, as the verse suggests, can only be justified under particular circumstances.

..but the reason or justification was given only in some conditions, certain conditions where by life would be impossible to live with that wife

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Egytiandoc77- You made these commments in a previous post, so I'm going to assume you might be able to answer my question to Jane.
First, what are the conditions, stated in the Koran, under which it is OK to take on a second wife?
Two that I can think of are 1) if the first wife can't have children, and 2) if the second wife needs support in some fashion (ie:her husband died and she needs someone to take care of her)

Second, is "loving another woman" enough reason to allow taking on a 2nd wife?

I want to add to the ongoing discussion, that western women imagine this in their own society, and when they try to attribute all the rights Islam gives to Muslim men to the men in their own society, they imagine how much those men would misuse their rights to oppress and degrade women, and marry and divorce just for the fun of it. That is because their men don't fear God in the way believing Muslims do.

Muslims know that our life on the earth is a short limited test time span, and the results of our piety, believing, deeds, words, actions, intentions, treatment of others.. will determine in the end if we are to enter paradise or hell for eternity.

Life in the Muslim eyes is not fun, money, sex, drugs and rock'n roll. It is about responsibility, respect and love to God and all the creation of God.

Nobody can be forced to live in a marriage with more than one woman. Debbie, if a man in Europe after a long marriage falls in love with a younger woman, what will he do? a) divorce his wife to be free for the other one b) betray his wife, adultery. In an Islamic family the first wife has to know what is going on, and she has the choice to remain the first wife with all her rights, she is not being 'dumped' or degraded in her society, or she can ask for a divorce. Which sounds more fair to you?

Again, it is the responsibility of the man, to determine the reasons of why he would want to marry again, and if he does, how he will manage to maintain, love and cherish his wives equally (imagine,one present here, the same present there, one smile here, the same smile there...).

What people always tend to forget: that we are to justify our intentions and actions in front of Allah on the day of judgment. Who gets wronged in this life by his spouse (or anybody else), will demand and receive all his/her rights on this day. Every soul will earn what it deserves, not more, not less.

As far as I know the Quran does not specify the exact conditions of when it is allowed for a man to marry more than one, there is no: 1) only if the first wife can't have kids or 2) or at times of war... these could be reasons but don't have to.

Personally I think that mankind is always longing for the things they can not have, just like little children. Men are created weak when it comes to women, and if they'd be allowed to marry only one woman, they'd always be longing for the forbidden, for another woman. Since it is allowed for them within the framework of Islam to marry again, they have the power to refuse this idea with nobility and honor, saying: I could if I wanted to, but alhamdulillah, one is enough for me. Does this make sense?

Now for all of you who keep on picking on Askhar, she is in a lawful and recognized marriage, she is happy and so is all her family, what is anybody elses problem?

quote:

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Originally posted by homesick2:
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/w_islam/poly.htm

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That was fascinating especially this bit
It should be noted that in many Muslim societies today the practice of polygamy is rare since the gap between the numbers of both sexes is not huge. One can, safely, say that the rate of polygamous marriages in the Muslim world is much less than the rate of extramarital affairs in the West. In other words, men in the Muslim world today are far more strictly monogamous than men in the Western world.

Billy Graham, the eminent Christian evangelist has recognized this fact: "Christianity cannot compromise on the question of polygamy. If present-day Christianity cannot do so, it is to its own detriment. Islam has permitted polygamy as a solution to social ills and has allowed a certain degree of latitude to human nature but only within the strictly defined framework of the law. Christian countries make a great show of monogamy, but actually they practice polygamy. No one is unaware of the part mistresses play in Western society. In this respect Islam is a fundamentally honest religion, and permits a Muslim to marry a second wife if he must, but strictly forbids all clandestine amatory associations in order to safeguard the moral probity of the community."

I know maybe I way too late to join in this, but I am right behind you girlfriend. I don't know how these women can be so brainwashed into thinking this is ok!!

Most of you will hate or resent me for this, but I am glad the governement here restricts Muslim men from marrying more than once. I do NOT agree with this and it is just sickening how a woman can have her husband in her bed on "Mon" then he can go to his "2nd Wife" on Tuesday and then think he can return with the 1st one and jump right into her bed like nothing happened. I am sorry but ANY WOMAN that allows this does not deserve to call herself a woman.

If my husband did this, not only would I divorce him with a quickness, but take half or more of what he owns and NEVER allow him near my children. Sorry ladies, but I DON'T SHARE. You want help? Sure, I can give you money, I can give you shelter, I can give you food, but my help does not include my husband. So I reiterate, I am sooooooooo happy the government restricts this. And also some states have also enacted a law or ordinace not sure, that an IMAN cannot even marry a couple in the Masjid WITHOUT a marriage license from the state. I am also glad for this. If I am to be called a "Kafr" so be it, it doesn't matter to me.

Only Allah can judge me and I will be asked for this in the afterlife. But to all those ladies that DO NOT approve and are hurt by this, you don't have to put up with it girls, A LEGAL PRENUP is a good thing, such as I have done. In it you can stipulate if he breaks the agreemant of no "plural marriage" the penalty is imediate divorce, a monatary compensation ( A huge one), and reliquishing of parental rights. If he loves you, he will sign it. It is legal and binding. And trust me, he will THINK TWICE before he even contemplates insulting you with a second marriage. Now this is not a "marriage contract", this is an actual legal and binding document in the court of law. It is known that most men won't even adhere to whatever prohibitions you stipulate in this contract, so do the smart thing and protect yourself with a good pre-nup if at all possible. I did it, and I feel wonderful. But then again, I was very lucky to marry a very good man who understood my fears and accepts me the way I am. But hey, YOU NEVER KNOW.

I apologize in advance if my comments offend the men or even the ladies, but I feel the way I feel and it is a personal thing. When and if you want to insult me, just think before you post. ONLY ALLAH can judge me and condem me.

quote:

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Originally posted by synthia21:
Katrin,

I know maybe I way too late to join in this, but I am right behind you girlfriend. I don't know how these women can be so brainwashed into thinking this is ok!!

Most of you will hate or resent me for this, but I am glad the governement here restricts Muslim men from marrying more than once. I do NOT agree with this and it is just sickening how a woman can have her husband in her bed on "Mon" then he can go to his "2nd Wife" on Tuesday and then think he can return with the 1st one and jump right into her bed like nothing happened. I am sorry but ANY WOMAN that allows this does not deserve to call herself a woman.

If my husband did this, not only would I divorce him with a quickness, but take half or more of what he owns and NEVER allow him near my children. Sorry ladies, but I DON'T SHARE. You want help? Sure, I can give you money, I can give you shelter, I can give you food, but my help does not include my husband. So I reiterate, I am sooooooooo happy the government restricts this. And also some states have also enacted a law or ordinace not sure, that an IMAN cannot even marry a couple in the Masjid WITHOUT a marriage license from the state. I am also glad for this. If I am to be called a "Kafr" so be it, it doesn't matter to me.

Only Allah can judge me and I will be asked for this in the afterlife. But to all those ladies that DO NOT approve and are hurt by this, you don't have to put up with it girls, A LEGAL PRENUP is a good thing, such as I have done. In it you can stipulate if he breaks the agreemant of no "plural marriage" the penalty is imediate divorce, a monatary compensation ( A huge one), and reliquishing of parental rights. If he loves you, he will sign it. It is legal and binding. And trust me, he will THINK TWICE before he even contemplates insulting you with a second marriage. Now this is not a "marriage contract", this is an actual legal and binding document in the court of law. It is known that most men won't even adhere to whatever prohibitions you stipulate in this contract, so do the smart thing and protect yourself with a good pre-nup if at all possible. I did it, and I feel wonderful. But then again, I was very lucky to marry a very good man who understood my fears and accepts me the way I am. But hey, YOU NEVER KNOW.

I apologize in advance if my comments offend the men or even the ladies, but I feel the way I feel and it is a personal thing. When and if you want to insult me, just think before you post. ONLY ALLAH can judge me and condem me.

All these reasons that they give for allowing this is BS to me, sorry. These are just "excuses" clerverly disguised as reasons and luckily I can see right through them. Please don't urinate in my face and try to make me believe it is rain ok? No offense. If you love someone, you stick by them through the good and the bad equally. It's called LOVE. If the person is sick, you lay there next to them, if you cannot have children, you deal with it-TOGETHER. Becauase I can guarantee you this, if my husband couldn't have kids,was sick or whatever I would STAY WITH HIM and VICE VERSA. There is no excuse for this and it all BS to me, sorry to say. Because there is no way in hell that I would allow this, EVER. I would a million times would rather have a divorce or have him have a mistress, and not laugh at the sanctity of marriage by using it as a license to commit "legal adultery" because that is what it is, a "halal way" to have up to 4 women. So spare me the psychological manipulation becuase it doesn't work with me. As I said I was smart enough to safeguard myself from this and enacted not only a prohibition of this on the NIKAH Contract, but also in a US Court of Law Legal and Binding Prenuptial Agreement that prohibits this, and in the case he eeven tries it, there is a penalty, NO more kids, a large amount of money, half of his bussinesses, and an immediate non contested divorce.

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You judged and then said please don't judge me.
You pissed on people and asked them not to piss on you back.
You reatedly used God's name and doubted his wisdom.

quote:

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Originally posted by synthia21:
This has NOTHING to do with FAITH. So spare me. Judge me all you want, I really don't care.

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quote:

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Originally posted by synthia21:
I didn't mean to be hostile. I apologize. It is just that some things such as this, public stonings, etc.. make my blood boil. I guess I will call it a night. Gnite.

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I do not think you judged at all. neither were you hostile. I read your opinoin and I agree with you. Well said

quote:

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Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
You're being extremely judgemental, and I bet you if someone said I am the first wife, and I agreed for my husband to take a 2nd wife...your arguements would be lost.

If you don't get it, and you want to learn...that's great. But you're just out to prove that you are right all along.

There is no right or wrong here. At the end of the day, we're all the same animal, driven by the same instincts.

---

ExptinCAI

1. We are not talking about theories of relativity of time and space in here and apply these concepts to marriage and love. Let's not pretend to be Einsteins in here. There is a clear difference between right and wrong.

As an aside, prostitution is illegal in USA, so it is "wrong", while prostitution in Greece is legal, does it make it "right"? So, look at the number of brothels being built to make quick and dirty money during the upcoming Olympics. is it relative in your opinion? Does something legal equates "right"? Do norms dictate what "right " and "wrong" in a particular society? Does it make it right realtive to the norms of another society? Or simply there should be eternal truths concepts of right or wrong regardless of such norms and times? Think about that

2. Animals do not marry at all. So, should you then at the end of the day?

3. "extrememly"? How do you measure that?

4. Would the first wife accept willingly? Is the argument really lost?

quote:

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Originally posted by Artemi:
katrina,
I didn't read that particular post but from your description it doesn't sound so much narrow minded to me, as perhaps unrealistic (although well intentioned).

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How about adoption, surrogate mother, or simply love each other and share the grief of not having children together, find joy in children of your sisters and brothers, etc rather than subjecting the woman the man swears love to more suffering just because she may not have children. What if the man is the reason a couple cannot have children? Then what? Would a woman be allowed to have two husbands for reproduction purposes? What happens to more "modern" ways of handling such issues? Simple love and devotion. There is no need for a third person to share that with.

quote:

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Originally posted by katrina:
How about adoption, surrogate mother, or simply love each other and share the grief of not having children together, find joy in children of your sisters and brothers, etc rather than subjecting the woman the man swears love to more suffering just because she may not have children. What if the man is the reason a couple cannot have children? Then what? Would a woman be allowed to have two husbands for reproduction purposes? What happens to more "modern" ways of handling such issues? Simple love and devotion. There is no need for a third person to share that with.

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Because the law is the law.

We (Muslims) have our laws and we are supposed to try our best to abide by them. The Western form of adoption is haram (forbidden) to Muslims, as is surrogacy. And Islamic beliefs state that both men and women have the GOD GIVEN right to have their own children. And unlike other faiths, we don't change our laws in order to suit new founded "needs". Muslims may ignore or even reject the laws, but it doesn't change what the law itself says. So many of these "modern" methods people are using nowadays do not fit within the clear guidelines of our faith.

The Qur'an clearly states that polygamy is permissible when it comes to dealing with widows and orphans. As a Muslim woman, that's the position that I take on this issue. I can't speak for thing outside of what the Qur'an states (not being able to have kids, etc.) because I just don't have the knowledge. But if you are this interested in our scholars interpretations of polygamy in Islam (and there are many), I can help you find online materials you can view at your leisure.

Be assured that we are not brainwashed. Just because we don't go by purely western ideals, standards, and beliefs doesn't mean we are brainwashed. The Islamic faith says that polygamy is halal (permissible) under certain circumstances. If you have an issue with this, why are you taking it out people who participate in it? We didn’t make this rule up on our own. It’s in the Qur’an. And unlike other faiths, Islam puts a LIMIT the number of wives and mandates fair and equal treatment. A woman can put in her marriage contract that she doesn’t want to be in a plural marriage, so why people crying over something they can’t be forced into anyway?

To Synthia21: What faith do you follow? If you are Jewish, Christian or Muslim, how can you say all those things about polygamy when Abraham had 2 wives? Christians and Muslim both believe Abraham married Hagar so that he could have a child. Allah said told him to do it. So how can you say it’s sick and wrong when the father of the 3 monotheistic religions did just that?

I don’t love polygamy, but I do accept it’s permissible in the faith of Islam. If you don’t like it, then take it to the one told us it was ok. Stop beating up a woman who is choosing to do something her FAITH says she’s allowed to do. She’s not asking you to love it or participate in it.

can we not just agree that what works for one does not work for another??????

i would not share a man under any circumstances ( at the moment but maybe i could change - who knows)

but i understand akshar's comments and respect her very much for talking about what is a tabboo subject here in the west.

when i was married my husband had an affair - i was deeply hurt by his lies - if i had known what was going on i would have still been hurt but at least i could have made an informed choice - i would have left in this case but as i have got older i often wonder if the situation had been introduced in a different way if i may not have been more accepting - i dont realy know as we cant turn the clock back.

anyway what i really wanted to say before i started rambeling is that why cant some people just accept what other folk say - their lifestyle is different not wrong - the way i live would not suit others but i find it works for me

quote:

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Originally posted by LadyYuna:
Because the law is the law.

We (Muslims) have our laws and we are supposed to try our best to abide by them. The Western form of adoption is haram (forbidden) to Muslims, as is surrogacy. And Islamic beliefs state that both men and women have the GOD GIVEN right to have their own children. And unlike other faiths, we don't change our laws in order to suit new founded "needs". Muslims may ignore or even reject the laws, but it doesn't change what the law itself says. So many of these "modern" methods people are using nowadays do not fit within the clear guidelines of our faith.

The Qur'an clearly states that polygamy is permissible when it comes to dealing with widows and orphans. As a Muslim woman, that's the position that I take on this issue. I can't speak for thing outside of what the Qur'an states (not being able to have kids, etc.) because I just don't have the knowledge. But if you are this interested in our scholars interpretations of polygamy in Islam (and there are many), I can help you find online materials you can view at your leisure.

Be assured that we are not brainwashed. Just because we don't go by purely western ideals, standards, and beliefs doesn't mean we are brainwashed. The Islamic faith says that polygamy is halal (permissible) under certain circumstances. If you have an issue with this, why are you taking it out people who participate in it? We didn’t make this rule up on our own. It’s in the Qur’an. And unlike other faiths, Islam puts a LIMIT the number of wives and mandates fair and equal treatment. A woman can put in her marriage contract that she doesn’t want to be in a plural marriage, so why people crying over something they can’t be forced into anyway?

To Synthia21: What faith do you follow? If you are Jewish, Christian or Muslim, how can you say all those things about polygamy when Abraham had 2 wives? Christians and Muslim both believe Abraham married Hagar so that he could have a child. Allah said told him to do it. So how can you say it’s sick and wrong when the father of the 3 monotheistic religions did just that?

I don’t love polygamy, but I do accept it’s permissible in the faith of Islam. If you don’t like it, then take it to the one told us it was ok. Stop beating up a woman who is choosing to do something her FAITH says she’s allowed to do. She’s not asking you to love it or participate in it.

Yuna

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delete

quote:

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Originally posted by katrina:
ExptinCAI

1. There is a clear difference between right and wrong.

(edited 09 April 2004).]

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You are absolutely right....now who decides what is Right and Wrong.

quote:

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Originally posted by LadyYuna:
Because the law is the law.

We (Muslims) have our laws and we are supposed to try our best to abide by them. The Western form of adoption is haram (forbidden) to Muslims, as is surrogacy. And Islamic beliefs state that both men and women have the GOD GIVEN right to have their own children. And unlike other faiths, we don't change our laws in order to suit new founded "needs". Muslims may ignore or even reject the laws, but it doesn't change what the law itself says. So many of these "modern" methods people are using nowadays do not fit within the clear guidelines of our faith.

The Qur'an clearly states that polygamy is permissible when it comes to dealing with widows and orphans. As a Muslim woman, that's the position that I take on this issue. I can't speak for thing outside of what the Qur'an states (not being able to have kids, etc.) because I just don't have the knowledge. But if you are this interested in our scholars interpretations of polygamy in Islam (and there are many), I can help you find online materials you can view at your leisure.

Be assured that we are not brainwashed. Just because we don't go by purely western ideals, standards, and beliefs doesn't mean we are brainwashed. The Islamic faith says that polygamy is halal (permissible) under certain circumstances. If you have an issue with this, why are you taking it out people who participate in it? We didn’t make this rule up on our own. It’s in the Qur’an. And unlike other faiths, Islam puts a LIMIT the number of wives and mandates fair and equal treatment. A woman can put in her marriage contract that she doesn’t want to be in a plural marriage, so why people crying over something they can’t be forced into anyway?

To Synthia21: What faith do you follow? If you are Jewish, Christian or Muslim, how can you say all those things about polygamy when Abraham had 2 wives? Christians and Muslim both believe Abraham married Hagar so that he could have a child. Allah said told him to do it. So how can you say it’s sick and wrong when the father of the 3 monotheistic religions did just that?

I don’t love polygamy, but I do accept it’s permissible in the faith of Islam. If you don’t like it, then take it to the one told us it was ok. Stop beating up a woman who is choosing to do something her FAITH says she’s allowed to do. She’s not asking you to love it or participate in it.

Yuna

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Originally posted by katrina:
Homesick2, choose words wisely, please. She never did that

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It fascinates me how some people could be so blind

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Originally posted by homesick2:

It fascinates me how some people could be so blind

[This message has been edited by homesick2 (edited 09 April 2004).]

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Thanks to Jaguar and Katrina for your kind comments.

Homesick, I NEVER “pissed” on ANYONE. I condemn the ACT itself. NOT the person. I have a great love and respect for humanity thank you very much.

And OMG, to LadyYuna, you asked what religion I follow, well here is a shocker… I was raised Catholic and had embraced Islam years ago, but now I dearly regret it. This religion that caters mostly to men and men only. While throwing the women a few bones here and there. The women are brainwashed and not to mention the stoning and the unreasonable laws that just DO NOT make sense!!! I do have to admit there are some very beautiful things about it, but you guys just have to F**K it up with your messed up beliefs. And for a woman like me, I WOULD NEVER be subservient to ANY man. Synthia don’t play that habibty. Sorry but you asked. If you ask a question, expect the answer.

And to LISANE, I hope for YOUR SAKE you were not talking about ME in your post about “young men” “lust” etc.. If I misunderstood, I apologize, I didn’t, I will respond.

Blondy25-Well Said.

And TO EVERYONE:

As I said, if a man really wanted to help a woman from his heart as a “good deed”. Sure I am all for it. That is wonderful, we all need good deeds. Why not give the woman food, give her shelter, give her clothing, give her money, etc....but why in bloody hell does his "assistance" have to include his bed and his penis? There is no possible justification for this and Islam further attempts to justify and pathetically fails at it. I will repeat what I posted earlier, not only do ISLAM and these “men” laugh at the sanctity of marriage by enacting these so called “second” “third” “fourth” “MARRIAGES” as a licenses to commit "legal adultery" because that is what they are. Mistresses with a license, kind of like legalized prostitution. Just because it is legal it doesn’t mean they have stopped being whores. So just because these women have “marriage contracts”, they are still mistresses in my book. A "halal way" to have up to 4 women in the sack if you will.

When you try to explain the "logical reasons" for this, who are you all trying to convince? Us? Or yourselves? Deep inside these women are boiling inside when these men are with the other women and they KNOW IT whether they choose to admit it or not, it is just not natural for polygamous relationships as much as egotistical sex driven manipulative men try to make us believe. And I truly feel that GOD DID NOT intend it to be this way, but we are taught not to "doubt" anything written in the KORAN regardless of any minute doubt that any of us may have, because god forbid if we do, we have to be stoned to death remember?
All these justifications and reasoning for allowing this has been done by men and men alone. These are just "excuses" very skillfully camouflaged as reasons as I mentioned earlier.

There is no doubt in my mind that God will one day punish men for this and set things straight. The suffering and emotional turmoil women have suffered openly and deep inside inside secretly will one day be vindicated whether in this life or the next. And if I am wrong I am willing to burn in hell for this, but I doubt it. That is how strongly I feel about it. It doesn't make SENSE.

Example: Just like it never made sense to me as to WHY we had to "pay" for Adam and Eve's transgressions when I was Catholic. We were not even there !!! What just and merciful god would do that to us? So logically it makes sense that we are all born pure and we decide what we do with our lives and we have nothing to do with Adam & Eve's sins. DUH !!! It is all in what makes sense and It is inside of all of us.

In closing I reiterate that I have complete and utter disdain for this act and I hope the US government does more to crack down on this abuse just as it has done with terrorism by enacting the homeland security. I for one have started a crusade in my University to send message to MUSLIM WOMEN all over the world and hopefully I can get through to at LEAST ONE, who in turn will do the same and so on. I know the men will hate me for this and I will relish in that hate and I will enjoy the pleasure I get when at least ONE WOMAN stands up to their sorry asses.

Thank You.

I await your comments with my laptop on my lap, a bag of popcorn and a cold ass pina colada J/K I don’t drink. J

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Originally posted by karinfarid:

Nobody can be forced to live in a marriage with more than one woman. Debbie, if a man in Europe after a long marriage falls in love with a younger woman, what will he do? a) divorce his wife to be free for the other one b) betray his wife, adultery. In an Islamic family the first wife has to know what is going on, and she has the choice to remain the first wife with all her rights, she is not being 'dumped' or degraded in her society, or she can ask for a divorce. Which sounds more fair to you?

Karin - I am not saying adultery or affairs are right, however if the above scenerio were to be studied and evaluated, my personal choice would be A: divorce the first wife and be free for the other.

If you do think that I support adultery, please think again. I don't. Do you think that is why I was asking Jane about her marriage? Hmmm? I don't think I ever said adultery was better, or even eluded to it. I definately don't. But regardless of that..... I wanted a lesson, not a lecture.

All I wanted to know is what passage in the Koran justifies this marriage. That's all. If there is a passage in the Koran that justifies it, then cool. It really doesn't matter whether I agree with it or not, but I'm just curious. I mean you guys that are Muslim and justifying multiple marriages are doing so because you say it is written in the Koran and came from God. I just want to know where and what it says. I don't have time or the slightest interest in reading the whole Koran to find it myself, (or to find out that it isn't there). I'm just asking for someone to make it easy for me and tell me where it is and what it says.

Bottom line is you guys are going to do what ever you want to do, and we are going to do whatever we want to do. We do what we want because we feel it is right, and you do what you want to do because you think it is right.

As far as I know the Quran does not specify the exact conditions of when it is allowed for a man to marry more than one, there is no: 1) only if the first wife can't have kids or 2) or at times of war... these could be reasons but don't have to.

So, now it is left up to man to make these judgements? Hmmmm. Interesting.

Men are created weak when it comes to women, and if they'd be allowed to marry only one woman, they'd always be longing for the forbidden, for another woman.

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If God made men weak when it comes to women, to the point he had to give them an out for this weakness, are we to assume he made women stronger than men when it comes to the opposite sex? Or are we to assume women have less drive when it comes to this, or what? I don't get that?

Again Karin, this is NOT a personal attack on Jane, so please don't take it as that. It is questions only, and I'm looking for response from you, or anyone that knows the answers. I just happened to take your post and let it lead me to the questions.

Also, Welcome to our new member Synthia21. She's great. You may not agree with her, but she is an outspoken woman that seems to know her mind. Gotta like that.

Dear brian and everybody,

With respect, and in extension to jaguar's post, with your given permission jaguar, I'll try - to the best of my knowledge supported by the reference* stated below - to provide more information to this issue.

Although it is clear in the Qur'an that if the Muslim husband IS NOT capable of treating all wives with JUSTICE he should marry only one... that of course is 'lost' in 'lust' most of the time within the meaning or the process.

In reality, it is a known fact that a man can't be JUST to all wives...there is always a favourite at one point, even by a small degree, it is logical that at least - as a mere example - on the night of the second marriage, let's say, the husband 'prefers' the new wife to the first/etc...

Also notice that HE (the Prophet) was married to ONE woman only and that, until she died - his first wife for 25 years - he used to handle HER businesses. In today's words, He (The Prophet - may peace be upon Him) was the financial consultant, as well as the Operations director, of his wife's business. He did not use HER money and marry others, while she was alive.

[And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.] (Quran 4:3)

The Muslim husband has to 'provide' the same type of housing, and by PROVIDING it is meant with HIS OWN MONEY not with the second/etc wife's financial means, same food, spend his days equally to all of them, notice this issue: if a husband can't be with one of his wives 'intimately' - for any which reason - then automatically, he is not being JUST to her by being so, with the other the next day - he must provide the exact same thing to all.

So, basically Islam does NOT allow polygamy, but RESTRICTS it with a very precise - and almost unattainable condition, for most men: JUSTICE between wives. Before Islam by the way, there was no restriction on the number of wives.

Hope this helped a little.

Salam...
Monica
*For more readings and information on Islam, please refer to: 'The Koran' translated to English, from the original Holy Qu'ran -firstly in 1956, published by Penguin books. Last edition,1995. Check from page 60: Women ~ Al Nisà -
And for your info, the word 'Qur'an' in Arabic means 'THE RECITAL' -

BRIAN: are you converting to Islam just to marry a Muslim woman, or because you are convinced it is the religion you want to practice and be proud of?

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Originally posted by jaguar:
I am quoting the Quran and Arthur J. Arberry interpretation:
```(2)Give the orphans their property, and do not exchange the corrupt for the good;and devour not their property with your property; surely that is a great crime.(3)[b]And if you fear that you will not act justly towards the orphans, marry such womenas seem good to you, two, three, four...........```
Please notice the following: Marring more than one woman is only allowed under the circumstances mentioned in the Sura i.e 1-A widow with orphans 2-Fearing injustice towards the orphans.
Please check Suret Alnesaa. V2 and V3.
That goes to prove that a Moslem is only allowed to marry more than one
WIDOWED woman and NOT just a Woman
Please re-read the Aya and my comment and correct me if/when I am wrong.Wallaho A3lam.

[/B]

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Originally posted by synthia21:
Ok here we go..

I NEVER “pissed” on ANYONE. I condemn the ACT itself. NOT the person. I have a great love and respect for humanity thank you very much.

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Originally posted by synthia21:

This religion that caters mostly to men and men only

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Originally posted by synthia21:

The women are brainwashed

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Originally posted by synthia21:

but you guys just have to F**K it up with your messed up beliefs.

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..........

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Originally posted by synthia21:

and Islam further attempts to justify and
pathetically fails

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Originally posted by synthia21:

not only do ISLAM and these “men” laugh at the sanctity of marriage by enacting these so called “second” “third” “fourth” “MARRIAGES” as a licenses to commit "legal adultery" because that is what they are

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Originally posted by synthia21:

legalized prostitution. Just because it is legal it doesn’t mean they have stopped being whores.

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Originally posted by synthia21:

egotistical sex driven manipulative men try to make us believe.

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Originally posted by synthia21:

There is no doubt in my mind that God will one day punish men for this and set things straight.

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HATE

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Originally posted by synthia21:

And if I am wrong I am willing to burn in hell for this, but I doubt it. That is how strongly I feel about it. It doesn't make SENSE.

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HATE

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Originally posted by synthia21:

I know the men will hate me for this and I will relish in that hate and I will enjoy the pleasure I get when at least ONE WOMAN stands up to their sorry asses.

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Originally posted by homesick2:
and more HATE

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homesick2, why to start up a new fight? This is her opinion, based on her experience or understanding of the situation. So be it. Is it possible what she describes? perhaps. I would not know it, but we can not speak for all the people in the world. maybe not on a broad scale, but maybe in some cases. And we cannot argue about specific cases, as we cannot observe them. If she made a generalization, then you can bring it to attention, but let's not start any more hatred wars in here.

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Originally posted by synthia21:
I hope the US government does more to crack down ..........just as it has done with terrorism by enacting the homeland security.

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Originally posted by katrina:
homesick2, why to start up a new fight? This is her opinion, based on her experience or understanding of the situation. So be it. Is it possible what she describes? perhaps. maybe not on a broad scale, but maybe in some cases.

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The subject in and of itself does not interest me, i'm more interested in how people write without realizing what they are writing and others read without even try to understand what they've reading(assuming they read the post before replying).

Can you see the contradictions?

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Originally posted by synthia21:

I meant to say that the goverment is cracking down on foreigners and their "practices" to protect this country.

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Originally posted by shumza:
So what is the government doing about all of the American Muslims who practice polygamy? and the American Mormons in Utah who practice polygamy? and the American Christians who practice polygamy?

[This message has been edited by shumza (edited 11 April 2004).]

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