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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
Well, does age really matter in a relationship?

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Not in my opinion it doesnt. It all depends on the individuals concerned whether they are compatible with each other. Age is a number and a state of mind. Most of the people i have as close friends are around 12-20 years younger than me. My last bf was 15 years younger than me and although it didnt work in the end (not due to age) we were very close to the point we knew what the other was thinking most of the time. I would happily do that again. You will find that its other people will put strain on the relationship, mostly if the man is younger, but if he is the older of the relationship thats all seen as fine and acceptable, even if hes 30+ years older! As I say, all down to the individuals concerned.

I don't see what the problem is !!!

For example if the man is 50 at the start of the relationship and the woman is 35, this means that when the man is 70 the woman will only be 55.

The age gap would become more apparent then.

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Originally posted by El Sphinx:
May I just add that age can become a problem in later years of the relationship.

For example if the man is 50 at the start of the relationship and the woman is 35, this means that when the man is 70 the woman will only be 55.

The age gap would become more apparent then.

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Exactly, I also believe that there is a generation gap in what two would enjoy, different interests, etc on average. There are exceptions, but I believe those are rare.

I think the big problem with large age gaps comes when one party wants children and the other party either cannot or does not want a family at that stage of life. This an even greater problem in Egypt if the woman is older as most men will want to have children, so she may have to be open to accepting a second younger wife.

As for the Sharm and Hurgadah older 'supermarket' ladies...(20 to 30+ years older) don't get me started on that one!!

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Originally posted by katrina:
Exactly, I also believe that there is a generation gap in what two would enjoy, different interests, etc on average. There are exceptions, but I believe those are rare.

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UM..UM...The problems usually dont start at the beginning ....but when one gets a bit older and the arthiritis,gout,liverspots etc. starts to kick in...well dont expect cabanaboy to hang around.A woman is usually at her peak from 35-45(might differ from woman to woman) and yeah she needs that young horsy that she can ride until kingdom comes ...But at the end you are as old as you feel...just a pity nature has a way of convincing us of reality.If you feel that you are Vivian Westwood and you can keep it up...go ahead!If you dont feel imbarresed if the cashier at the till asks you if he/she is your son/daughter...go ahead!If it doesnt bother you at all...GO AHEAD!Who gives a damn what people think...they dont live your life...when you lock your doors and close your windows...they dont have to sleep next to grandpa or grandma.....or cabanagirl or boy ...Gees I'd rather have a nice guy next to me then an old wrinkled liver spotted old man!....oh sorry Im not even thirty yet so I guess a younger guy for me would be what???....12 years old

You should talk to more women in their 50's and you will find that a lot of them feel that this time is their peak. You would be surprised the awakening that happens when you don't have to worry about getting pregnant anymore and the kids are on their own. You should ask our husbands. They aren't complaining.

I didn't take it the wrong way. When I was your age I thought that life ended at forty and I couldn't even comprehend, oh my God, people having sex in their fifties and sixites. Now I know that life just starts at fifty. I was your age when my favorite boss who was fifty at that time told me that. She was a very attractive woman and had any number of men interested in her. She was definitely right. Some things do get MUCH better with age, love, and a genuine desire borne out of a shared history to make each other happy. This may come as a surprise to many but not all women that are fifty are ugly, dried up old prunes. Many women are like a fine wine, they definitely get better with age.

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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
How interesting that the replies are from women.Now that I am fifty I find I am more confident which possibly makes me more atractive,I do not worry,I do not nag am content with life and take whatever comes in my stride.I like younger people they are refreshing and motivating.I find the problem with so many men my age is they are very much pipe and slippers.When you have so much energy for new projects and travel and new cultures you have to have a partner that has the same goals.Although my ex husband was 20 years older than me he was very young in his outlook and good fun and I never noticed the age difference. Some people are born old and some people are forever young in their outlook.Personally I have a real zest for life and look forward to every day especially with my younger man.I have only heard one comment made about us which incidently was from an english man.On walking past our table in a restaurant I heard him say she must be at least 10 years older than him,how kind I thought, 20 actually!!!!!

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Please read stories around here and make sure you are nto one of them. Really. Before it hits you harder. I really do not see a strong motivation for a 30-year old man to be with a 50-year old woman, especially in Egypt. I am not saying it to hurt you.

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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
Katrina I do not know what you mean by a strong motivation to be with a 50 year old especially in Egypt? Why so different from anywhere else.If I was a 50 year old man and he was a 30 year old woman would that be OK.I suspect it would be because that is acceptable.Maybe he wants me for my money,no we can rule that one out he has enough of his own,maybe he cannot find a girl his own age because he is unattractive and has no personality he has both.He is not one of your sharm or hurghada giggilos. He has a wonderful supportive family and great friends. Why does he love me, I dont know.I read a story recently of a famouse reporter in England who met and married a south african reporter 25 years his junior,he said he could not understand why she wanted to spend the rest of her life with a drooling wrinkly old fool like him, she said, quite simply, she loved him.Maybe quite simply he loves me for what I am wrinkles (not to many) included.I am not a fool Katrina I know when someone is insincere.. But I will heed your advice and be very open minded and not expect to much and then I will not be disapointed.

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As bad and double standard as it sounds, I admit and I believe it is bad, but it has been this way: old guy/young woman--all the time, not the other way around. Time to change? Probably yes probably no. You apply your own culture to this situation, and Egypt is a different place.

Honestly, I do not even see such cases of an older woman/young man in the so called liberal West. So yes, money is perhaps the motivation. I hope not so. I am not trying to redicule you. I feel sorry for you if your case is typical case we read about plenty here on ES. That is all.

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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
I think I will follow my heart.And not listen to all the bitter stories on this forum.Life is for living.If I believed everything I read here I dont think I would set foot in Egypt again.There does appear to be many very bitter and twisted opinions posted here/People seem to be so full of venom.So you make a mistake move on forget it life is to short.That is the only way you find out in life,you make mistakes.We have all made them.If my man wants childeren fine he will find himself a younger woman and I will leave,he knows that I would not tolerate another woman.And yes I would be hurt,but, I would get over it and no I would not be bitter.I would put it down to experience.

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Good luck. There is a great value though in learning from other people's mistakes. Whoever posted these stories (which believe me are shocking to all of us), are not simply making up stuff.

Following your heart is a road to increase chances of breaking it pretty badly later if you dive in with your heart 100%. One does need to use one's mind as well. The pain experienced later may not be worth the time you have in your Lala land. Personally, I do not understand people completely when they burn and then say they would do it all over again knowing the outcome later. It can cost you more than simply learning a lesson. Actually whether you believe these stories or not, you seem to go into with a perspective of your own culture. I do understand that. You may face different things you are not that ready for. Good luck to you.

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Originally posted by katrina:

Following your heart is a road to increase chances of breaking it pretty badly later if you dive in with your heart 100%. One does need to use one's mind as well. The pain experienced later may not be worth the time you have in your Lala land.

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Well I would rather be part of the 'I tried it and it didn't work' group than the 'What if' group. life is much richer and interesting. sometimes it works, I would rather know. For myself Inshahallah so far it has, next year who knows but I have had a year and a half of joy. Worth it, you better believe it.

And what if it is the fairy tale, well **** you lot i was right and you were wrong. Jealous, I know you are lol

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Originally posted by akshar:

Well I would rather be part of the 'I tried it and it didn't work' group than the 'What if' group. life is much richer and interesting. sometimes it works, I would rather know. For myself Inshahallah so far it has, next year who knows but I have had a year and a half of joy. Worth it, you better believe it.

And what if it is the fairy tale, well **** you lot i was right and you were wrong. Jealous, I know you are lol

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When you make a well-balanced choice with your head present, there is no "WHAT IF"!!!!!

Katrina, come on, be easy on Akshar and her family. No personal insults like that.

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Originally posted by Lukoshko:
I gess not the age itself is so important, but the person's life experience, compatability, way of thinking and so on. Some people stay young (some - childish) till their 70s, some people become old at 20.

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Amen.

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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
Wow I have just read your reply to Jane you are certainly very motivated Katrina.Are you Egyptian no I think not.No Egyptian man or woman would be so venomous.How could a simple question about age turn into an attack on someone who is doing what they think is right for them.Harsh words, maybe you should think about why you wrote them.Everyone just does there best in life,please do not be so hurtful to others.I wish I had never asked the question.

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Originally posted by Tigerlily:

Katrina, come on, be easy on Akshar and her family. No personal insults like that.

GeGe, many stories here posted on ES are not just "bitter" expressions of women which relationship with an Egyptian man ended in a mess or it was even doomed from the beginning. Of course you are free to to whatever you want in your life. But do not forget that things look much brighter when you are in love..... and I guess somehow you know. Again, good luck in everything what you are deciding to do!

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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
Katrina, I would like to ask you if you have ever been in love,somehow I doubt it.Because if you had you would know that it is most certainly better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.I agree with Jane I could end my relationship and wonder what if.

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Ge Ge

Have I even been in love? Your intuition is right. No. not really. I know one thing it is better not to love than to love an asshole. It is really not worth it. There is no lesson to it, other than you did love an asshole. You are not going to be a better person as a result. As I said before when you make the right choice well calculated, you do not have thoughts of "what if". The price you pay for the bad path may outweigh all the temporary glimses of that joy you are talking about. Simply not worth it. Heart may lead you to no good. It could be a classic case of a butterfly flying to light and burning pretty badly. If you do use your head, you will avoid it. I personally never regreted one decision based on careful thinking, while when heart was involved it led to errors and extra work to reverse the mistakes. I can make tough choices and never look back. So "what if" part does not bother me. It is when you realize you made a mistake, you would wonder "what if" you did not make this error, what it would have been like. The problem of hindsight. In some people's cases those errors can be irrevocable. What for, shall I ask? You use your head first and then let the heart rule when you are absolutely sure.

As for Jane, her husband is muslim, he can have up to 4 wives if he so wishes and Jane knew and accepted this when she married him. Why does it rile you so much that she is happy??

I too was married to an a**hole for 21 years, a British asshole too. Then I fell in love with an Egyptian.......who also now is called a**hole too, but the time I had with my Egyptian a**hole I would live again, it was the best time of my life. If you love hard it can hurt hard when it ends, but believe me its worth it!!

The best lessons are those we learn oursleves, not from other peoples experiences.

It is better to have loved and lost an asshole than never to have loved an asshole at all.

LOL that will keep me smiling for the day!
Have a good weekend all

glad to make you smile though

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Originally posted by Ayisha:
Advice on love from someone who has never been in love is a bit like advice on how to raise children from someone thats never had any. Love does not follow logic. When it happens its not a planned and thought about thing. Its not a case of 'deciding'with your head to allow your heart to feel, it just happens!

As for Jane, her husband is muslim, he can have up to 4 wives if he so wishes and Jane knew and accepted this when she married him. Why does it rile you so much that she is happy??

I too was married to an a**hole for 21 years, a British asshole too. Then I fell in love with an Egyptian.......who also now is called a**hole too, but the time I had with my Egyptian a**hole I would live again, it was the best time of my life. If you love hard it can hurt hard when it ends, but believe me its worth it!!

The best lessons are those we learn oursleves, not from other peoples experiences.

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If you read Amina's story, do you think it was worth? Yes, poor girl did not know. She will make the best of her life going forward. But do you think it was worth it? You cannot look back now, but I am sure there were warning signs about that absolute asshole that could have stopped her tying the knot with him a few years ago. She could have spoken to his first wife and known enough about the asshole to realize what she realized now: he is an asshole! Look, she had plenty to say after the fact. I bet if Amina listened to her before getting married to such an asshole, she would have known that he cheated left and right in his first marriage, that he was a pathetic man. She would have used her head not heart, and would not have used her heart to fall over heals with this asshole. Amina was not the only one who could not see it through. her family could not see it either. But data was out there. It is a matter of how much we "dig" before we dive in with our hearts and what is important. I bet a doctor does not mean " a decent man".

It is like in any decision, you do collect data and analyze it before making the cut. Trust me not 'what if" regrets would have been necessary! This man is not even worth her.

If she did, by now she could have had a different man who could have been a better husband and father, and she would not have had to go through this hell. What lesson is learned here? That he is an asshole!? She was too good to learn that kind of lesson. Even if she met someone else not wonderful enough, had she not chosen the path with this asshole, I bet it would not have been any worse. If situation had been evaluated very critically, this nightmare could have been prevented, because people do not change. This asshole has not become asshole over night, HE HAS BEEN AN ASSHOLE ALL THE TIME.

Sorry, dear Amina, to use your story as an example.

Hey, ladies, at my 27, I do know that one's main objective is to avoid loving an asshole. That is not life worth living. There are beatiful places to see, beatiful people to meet, time is precious, and life is short and yes it is worth living, but not waste it on assholes. Your love is not worth assholes. Love for the sake of love is not worth it either. It is truly a waste. Life is short, choose wisely with whom you spend and how you spend it with, and thus whom you love. Learn from other people's mistakes not your own. There is a great margin for error even then.

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Originally posted by Shareen:
100% agreement here. I was with my english husband for 24 years, yes I loved him once, no I dont love him now. He wasnt an asshole but he was no longer for me. Yes, I was an "orfi" wife, he was only a minor asshole and I am no longer with him. One was much older than I, and the other much younger.
But I have loved, and I would never ever change my times with either of them. They both gave me what I needed at the right time. And I am a better person for having known them both. I followed my heart and I only gained from it.
At least I can hold my head up and say I tried, rather than looking into a future of bleakness saying "what if".
As for the egyptian gigolo..... go for it, but as I have said so many many times on these forums..... go for it, but keep your eyes wide open and your hand firmly on your wallet.
Life is for living!

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Shareen, what kind of advice is this suggesting getting involved with a gigolo? What is that you gained from being with a gigolo?

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Originally posted by katrina:
To all who love or loved assholes regardless of age difference!

If you read Amina's story, do you think it was worth? Yes, poor girl did not know. She will make the best of her life going forward. But do you think it was worth it? You cannot look back now, but I am sure there were warning signs about that absolute asshole that could have stopped her tying the knot with him a few years ago. She could have spoken to his first wife and known enough about the asshole to realize what she realized now: he is an asshole! Look, she had plenty to say after te fact. I bet if Amina listened to her before getting married to such an asshole, she would have known that he cheated left and right in his first marriage, that he was a pathetic man. She would have used her head not heart, and would not have used her heart to fall over heals with this asshole. It is like in any decision, you do collect data and analyze it before making the cut. Trust me not 'what if" regrets would have been necessary! This man is not even worth her.

If she did, by now she could have had a different man who could have been a better husband and father, and she would not have had to go through this hell. What lesson is learned here? That he is an asshole!? She was too good to learn that kind of lesson. Even if she met someone else not wonderful enough, had she not chosen the path with this asshole, I bet it would not have been any worse. If situation had been evaluated very critically, this nightmare could have been prevented, because people do not change. This asshole has not become asshole over night, HE HAS BEEN AN ASSHOLE ALL THE TIME.

Sorry, dear Amina, to use your story as an example. Hey, ladies, at my 27, I do know that one's main objective is to avoid loving an asshole. That is not life worth living. There are beatiful places to see, beatiful people to meet, time is precious, and life is short and yes it is worth living, but not waste it on assholes. Your love is not worth assholes. Love for the sake of love is not worth it either.

[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 21 August 2004).]

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She has a wonderful daughter so I think she wouldn't anything to change otherwise she wouldn't have had her.

Pain is one of lifes rich experiences. How do you know happiness withou knowing sadness. How can you know joy without depair.

You are so young Katrina and so dogmatic; as you get older and go through lifes experiences you will also find that people change and do become arseholes. That love can blind you to all sorts of faults, literally, research has shown that 'being in love' does affect our critical faculties. That a few moments happiness can be worth the later pain.

What I have gone through has made me what I am today and I wouldn't change a single thing.

I hope that your logic does prevent you having a failed relationship and suffering that pain but I wouldn't guarantee it.

And I will tell you something else, if this does happen to you and you are hurt and in pain please come to me. I promise I will be there for you. For you it will be so hard because you thought you had protected yourself. I also swear I will never say 'I told you so'

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Originally posted by akshar:
She has a wonderful daughter so I think she wouldn't anything to change otherwise she wouldn't have had her.

Pain is one of lifes rich experiences. How do you know happiness withou knowing sadness. How can you know joy without depair.

You are so young Katrina and so dogmatic; as you get older and go through lifes experiences you will also find that people change and do become arseholes. That love can blind you to all sorts of faults, literally, research has shown that 'being in love' does affect our critical faculties. That a few moments happiness can be worth the later pain.

What I have gone through has made me what I am today and I wouldn't change a single thing.

I hope that your logic does prevent you having a failed relationship and suffering that pain but I wouldn't guarantee it.

And I will tell you something else, if this does happen to you and you are hurt and in pain please come to me. I promise I will be there for you. For you it will be so hard because you thought you had protected yourself. I also swear I will never say 'I told you so'

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Thank you Jane. Seriously it is very thoughtful of you. Honestly, very touching. I apologize for being harsh and straighforward with you. I do wish you all the best regardless of my skeptisism.

Jane, no I do not think that my analytical mindset can prevent me from making a mistake. The goal is to minimize the margin of error. I understand that analysis has its own limitations and you can never eliminate uncertainty and risk 100% as risk is an inherent factor present in life. What I know is the benefits of the analysis which help you to understand this:

1. bad decision/good execution - successful outcome
2. bad decision/bad execution - unsuccessful outcome
3. good decision/bad execution - unsuccessful outcome
4. good decision/good execution - successful outcome.

Inherently you have 50/50 chance with 1) being likely to be subject to "luck" which cannot be repeated consistently, so it shifts the scale to 50-75% chance failure with a solid 25% chance of success.

I have experienced all 4 in different situations in life. What I know is that case 2 had always had signs before if you are willing to read them. I really do not believe misreading and denial would be worth it.

Another limitation of my mindset I am keenly aware of is over-confidence. First, realizing it is the first step to curb it among many more.

Yet in conclusion, analysing does help you to think clearly before you are ready to dive in with your head down. it is better be an excellent dive and refreshing swim rather than falling into abyss that could have been prevented if you just stepped aside for a bit and examined the terrain and height of your own flight.

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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
I am so sad for you Katrina.Do you analyse and produce statistics for a living. Life is just not like that.But I think it proves a point.You used very harsh words about Jane and her reply to you,I will be there for you if you are ever hurt.And do you know why she said that Katrina.Because her life is so full of love and lifes experiences that she can forgive and understand when someone else speaks without her knowledge.My daughter is your age and a nurse she is the sweetest person you could ever meet,she was very hurt
earlier this year by her fiancee,but she is not at all bitter or sceptical on the contrary she has put it down to experience and moved on.That is life. That is what makes us the person we are,ups and downs,making mistakes and please remember life would not be as sweet without the sour.

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Ge Ge, I am not bitter. I am a very sweet person. It does not have to come across in everything I write on public boards. Do not be sad for me as to each its own, I think that is what you all are trying to say. I feel happy when I make good decisions based on a solid analysis. It makes me happy to prevent things rather than go through them, because I do have positive experiences to enjoy instead. I do not believe in a great value of a heartache, I honetly do not believe it, although I did experience it. I do not come from a theoretical base only. I do not believe an experience with an asshole can make me a better person, because if I try my very hard to avoid it, I may just make the most wonderful person the happiest man and he can do the same. Again, there is no value in wasting your life on assholes. None. I have made mistakes in life, and yes Ge Ge I can make tough choices and decisions over night given I have all the data avaialable. I am not afraid of looking at hard facts with an honest look and move on. I believe there are plenty of other mistakes in life you can make to improve myself as a person than to give the best of myself to an asshole who was not worth one bit of me. That is a true waste. If you cannot prevent it, you'd better realize it as soon as possible, move on, and no way say it was worth it. It was simply a chance and a mistake.

Don't degrade anyone - not even your ex-husbands - like that; if you stayed with them in long marriages like 20 years and more than these men couldn't be that bad after all I am wondering .......

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Originally posted by Tigerlily:

Hey, Girls, why are that *ASSHOLE* thing here on that thread, on this forum?

Don't degrade anyone - not even your ex-husbands - like that; if you stayed with them in long marriages like 20 years and more than these men couldn't be that bad after all I am wondering .......

[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 21 August 2004).]

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Tigerlilly, I would not degrade a husband as I have never been married. But cheats, liars, and those who take advantage of somebody else's trust and love, are assholes. plainly assholes. no degrdation there? It is like calling milk "milk".

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Originally posted by katrina:
Shareen, what kind of advice is this suggesting getting involved with a gigolo? What is that you gained from being with a gigolo?

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Read my words again Katrina. I did not advise to get involved with a gigolo. I simply said "follow your heart" and "life is for living" etc etc.
May I also add that I categorically stated my ex husband was NOT an asshole, and that my Orfi husband was only a minor asshole. And dont you think it is kind of sad if we have to analyse everyone we meet just in case they turn out to be assholes in the future? We can try to protect ourselves from heartache, but in reality we can never truely know someone until we have lived with them for a number of years. Life is all about taking risks, not holding back just in case the risk is too great.

And I have always advocated that if anyone is in a relationship with a potential gigolo, then that is fine, as long as that person is fully aware of the risks and is prepared to take those risks for the sake of happiness, but who will also know when to walk away and not have any regrets.

Like I said, I had my Orfi, he never had my money and I only gained from the it. I am not prepared to discuss either of my relationships on a public forum. The details will remain private.

As for Jane, have you met her husband? Or her daughter? Or her co-wife? No? Well may I suggest that you cease telling her how her life is and what mistakes she is making. I do know Jane, from before she left here to live in Egypt. She knows the risks..... fully..... she left here and took the risk, and so far, it is working for her and for her daughter. Maybe one day it wont work, who knows? None of us know what our future will be. But at least both Jane and her daughter have experienced a full and rewarding life.

My husband has been part of my life for more than 40 years. He is not an a*hole but for a while I was bored and wanted something different. The next one was an a*hole and still is. My income is for life. If I chose to spend my life with him he will dote on me until the day I die. I choose not to. If I had chosen that route would my relationship have been classed as a success?

Jane and GeGe's relationships are still far too new to be classed as either success or failures. I think that almost every orfi wife was happy at the beginning and was still happy a few years later. I know I was. Where marriage is concerned success or failure is usually measured in longevity. I wish Jane and GeGe every luck. They know the odds. GeGe can cocme back in fifteen years and repost her story then as a success.

It is the balance of what is gained and lost from the relationship that perhaps counts more than age itself. I lost part of my savings but I gained a love of Egypt. My income is safe and large enough for me to live without any financial concerns. But, even though I would do it again - I would not do it twice. I will never get involved again with a man that is so much younger than me.

If Gege can live her life, keep her purse closed and not build the flats, buy the car and start the business until all her money is gone then she will be OK. Then if it all goes wrong she still has choices. Those that are bitter are the women who have lost everything and unfortunately although they do not post on any forums, they are the majority. GeGe keep enough to one side to make sure that your future is secure and then you can take all the risks without any bitterness later .

Penny was right to smile at the better to have love an a*hole and lost than not to have loved an a*hole at all - it was priceless.

Sorry dear, but love is not something you can turn on and off like a light switch. It doesn't work like that in the real world.

But I understand the point you're trying to make, and Shareen summed it up well. Know the RISK involved, and even if it does not succeed, you knew what you were getting yourself into.

This is why I don't have sympathy for women that get involved in risky orfi marriages gone bad, because I believe they knew they were taking a risk, and they got something out of it as well. It's like feeling sorry for a woman that had the best one night stand in her life, and gets sad because the guy didn't call her the next morning.

I look at some of those relationships like a long term one night stand, enjoy it while it lasting, and don't come whining to anyone when it's over, because you are smart enough to know what you were getting yourself into. And I will NOT say I told you so, because I think you already knew yourself.

I heard a Blues singer once sing a song to a lady "If it feels this good being used, just keep on using me, until you use me up"

Then he ended the song with "Because I sure am using you too"

I know from reading back through the posts that you say you will not accept another wife but when it comes to the crunch - you will.

You are right ANM. The whole thing is a business deal. It's a balance between what you get and what you lose. Keep enough back to ensure your security and enjoy it for what it is.

Swap the words positive and negative for success or failure and there is still a time element. If you are still together after fifteen years you can post a positive story that everyone will believe. If it falls apart, get on with your life.

My partner would have 'loved' me all the way to the bank for the rest of my life. It was a business deal. I bought him. I have no illusions about that.

Katrina is a bit too analytical where love is concerned as love is completely blind, but she does speak some sense.