quote:Originally posted by Prince of Nothing: I'd even go so far as to say that alot of the social unrest which plagues the Middle East could likely be traced to the sexual frustration in the populations.
~Alistair
Truer words never spoken.
Posts: 2404 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Eelaa’ is forbidden in Islam because it is a vow not to do something that is obligatory. It is in effect a vow not to have intercourse with one's wife, either never again or for a period that exceeds four months; or else it means vowing that if one’s wife does not do a certain obligatory action or does a certain haraam action, he will not have intercourse with her. The fuqahaa’ also said that the one who does not have intercourse with his wife for more than four months without swearing an oath, in order to harm her and without having a valid excuse, also comes under the category of eelaa’.
The ruling on this matter is: that if he has intercourse with his wife during that period, then he has “returned”, because “returning” in this context means intercourse and in this manner the woman has attained what she is entitled to from him. If he refuses to have intercourse after the stated time limit has expired, then the judge should order him to divorce her if his wife requests that. If he refuses to have intercourse and he refuses to divorce her, then the judge should issue a divorce and annul the marriage.
And Allaah knows best.
For more information refer to Zaad al-Ma’aad by Ibn al-Qayyim, vol. 5/344
If it is the case that the husband is sick, please see Question No 1859, 5684
While I can see why it might be helpful to argue from a religious point of view with some people, I personally find it bizarre to try to regulate the most intimate aspects of human relationships by laws and fatwas. Human beings differ considerably, so do their needs for physical or psychological intimacy. What works well for one couple might not work at all for the next, so establishing "rules" how often partners "have to" sleep with each other is unrealistic and inhumane. I've even read a fatwa once saying that if a husband and wife can't agree on how much sex each of them wants, a judge should determine the number of times they have to sleep with each other. That's insanely absurd and also very sad imo.
As for the legal aspect ... I'm just wondering about this passage that says the wife has the right to get divorced or have her marriage annulled if her husband "withholds himself" from her. But how many women would actually go to court because of such a thing? How many women would admit to wanting to have more sex, and how many husbands would admit to not being able to satisfy their wife – particularly in societies that implement some version of Shari'a? Very few, I assume ... And even if she did – how on earth would she prove this? According to the sheikh who issued the above fatwa, women's testimony is only worth half of a man. So if her husband denies the charges, what way would the woman have to get her right to a divorce?
I'm also wondering why he doesn't condemn men who don't sleep with their wifes as much as he condemns women who don't sleep with their husbands. Why doesn't he tell the husband who withdraws himself that the angels will curse him, that Allah's wrath will be upon him and that the he should be beware of incurring his wife's wrath? Why doesn't he tell the men that they are committing a huge sin, and that their wifes have the right to hit them if they don't sleep with them? Big double standard here.
The hadeeth also directs a wife to help her husband and seek his satisfaction, because a man is less patient than a woman when it comes to doing without intercourse. The most disturbing thing for a man is his sexual impulse, so Islam urges women to help their husbands in this regard. (...) Whether the husband wants to discipline his wife, or forgive her, or take another wife, or divorce her, this is all up to him to choose. Let the woman beware of incurring her husband’s wrath because this will lead to Allaah’s being angry with her.
It is obligatory on slave women and free women alike not to refuse their masters or husbands if they call them, so long as the woman who is called is not menstruating or sick in such a way that intercourse will be harmful to her, or observing an obligatory fast. If she refuses with no excuse, then she is cursed.
The Hanafis mentioned four situations in which a husband is permitted to discipline his wife by hitting her. These are: not adorning herself when he wants her to; not responding when he calls her to bed and she is taahirah (pure, i.e., not menstruating); not praying; and going out of the house without his permission.
posted
It seems that you can't do right for doing wrong!
I posted information from the Islamic perspective after waiting and seeing if anyone came up with anything positive to help ana uhibbuk in the first place from any other angle...none of the suggestions seemed to hit the nail on the head, so as she had mentioned previously that her husband had wanted to get married in a mosque to have an Islamic ceremony, it seemed worth looking at the situation from the Islamic point of view. I tried to find this information on another site that wouldn't arouse so much antagonism and get jumped on for its mere name, but I couldn't find anything in the time I had, so I posted it for informations sake.
This site is for answering questions, so maybe you found more questions about men complaining because more men write them....who knows! In the case of divorce, men and women's testimonies are considered equal, and if a woman feels strongly enough that she is unable to go for more that 4 months without having intercourse with her husband, this ruling permits her to take it to an Islamic court...whether or not a judge would rule fairly is another matter, and not what this question was addressing. It was addressing a right that Islam has given to women. It's too easy to knock Islam when it doesn't say what you agree with, but at least give it credit when it does something positive for women!
I still personally think that a lot of his behaviour, particularly his latest response is tied up with his green card/citizenship application, and that he thought he was on the home run and is now feeling that he might be losing his chance for it.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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This site is for answering questions, so maybe you found more questions about men complaining because more men write them....who knows!
Please don't insult my intelligence or your own!
The reason there are countless texts and fatwas out there dealing with men's supposed right to have intercourse whenever and how often they wish is not because men happen to be asking more questions about this. It's because the sheikhs who issue those fatwas see women as little more than domestic animals, supposed to supply their husbands with sex and service. It's because they want to make sure that men's sexual needs are catered to by all means, whereas they often see women's sexual needs as something negative, something that needs to be supressed. So they issue fatwa after fatwa, creating loopholes for men to satisfy their sexual appetite – be it polygamy, sex with slaves, or, as mentioned above, the supposed right to force their wifes to have sex with them.
IMHO a mufti who supports female circumcision and claims there's nothing wrong with marital rape can be hardly taken as an advocate for women's sexual rights!
It doesn't matter how you twist and turn it, it's a double standard that shows a lot of contempt for women and their sexuality.
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: It's too easy to knock Islam when it doesn't say what you agree with, but at least give it credit when it does something positive for women!
I am not "knocking Islam", I'm criticizing Mr Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid, his misogynist fatwas and his horrible views on women, which I've been doing for a long time.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: [QUOTE]I am not "knocking Islam", I'm criticizing Mr Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid, his misogynist fatwas and his horrible views on women, which I've been doing for a long time.
And its getting boring Dalia. As I said, I tried to look for this information (which is well-known among all the scholars and is relevant to the question posed on this thread) on many other sites deliberately in an attempt to avoid you doing just what you have done - i.e. divert the subject into an attack on the writer of the fatwa rather than looking at the information it contained - but I couldn't find anything else in the time I had. So I quoted this one, and sadly you couldn't look at the information on this occasion either.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: And its getting boring Dalia.
Pointing out injustice, hyprocrisy, misgoynism and double standars might be boring or unpleasant to some people. I fully understand this, but I reserve the right to find it necessary nevertheless.
quote: As I said, I tried to look for this information (which is well-known among all the scholars and is relevant to the question posed on this thread) on many other sites deliberately in an attempt to avoid you doing just what you have done - i.e. divert the subject into an attack on the writer of the fatwa rather than looking at the information it contained - but I couldn't find anything else in the time I had. So I quoted this one, and sadly you couldn't look at the information on this occasion either.
I think you haven't understood some of the points in my post. I have looked at the information contained in there, or rather, it's no news to me at all; and I understand your reason for mentioning this. But I layed out my reasons why I personally think establishing or enforcing rules is not a real solution imo. If I have to "force" my partner to sleep with me - by religious, legal or whatever rules – then there's something seriously wrong in the relationship that can only get worse, and not better, by applying compulsion.
You can regulate the legal aspects of a couple marrying or getting divorced, and that's fine. But trying to regulate their emotions, their sexual life, their behaviour and feelings towards each other by rules and regulations is bound to failure. If one of the partners does not want sex with the other, it's important to find out the reasons, to talk, to seek counselling, to try to understand the other. Forcing one of them will not solve anything, but create resentment or even hate and make matters worse.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Islam is a way of life; it’s as simple as that. And upon disputes especially those that infringe on the rights of one partner, the traditions of Prophet Muhammad (saw) should be examined to determine how he would have solved such a problem. He is the guide to Muslims, in every aspect of their lives; this is what many Muslims believe in.
Scholars that sincerely try to reconcile married couples are doing a service to Muslims. Some couples in western societies resort to sex therapists and I would imagine such professionals’ purpose is to help in this regard. The objective is nevertheless the same as the scholars and that is to facilitate sexual intercourse between a man and his wife. There is no such thing as ‘forcing’ because at the end of the day the man and his wife are the ones who have do deal with this dilemma. The scholars merely arbitrate from an Islamic point of view. This is for the betterment of Muslim women, for their own welfare because who are they to turn to in such a situation. The man if confronted from an Islamic point of view would fully know that he is transgressing if he is contradicting the actions of Prophet Muhammad(saw).
That is Islam and people might ignorantly think that women are too shy or embarrassed to speak out, but in fact they do. Many families actually have ‘sit-downs’ with sheiks over disputes like these. The sheik listens to both parties and then offers a solution in accordance with the traditions of the prophet (saw).
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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With the modern Muslim fixation on the evil of sexual permissiveness, it would be reasonable to assume that Islam frowns on sex. Prophet Muhammad, however, taught that sex within marriage is an act of worship.
Perhaps even more astonishing, he instructed Muslim men that they should not lay with their wives as though they were animals, but to begin with kisses and caressing, to ensure the woman's pleasure.
Thus, it's not just sex for procreation, or sex to relieve masculine needs, but sex as pleasure and intimacy between two human beings that can be holy.
This view of sex, pleasure, intimacy and love reflects Islam's understanding of human nature. The Qur'an affirms that everything in creation is made in pairs. Heaven and Earth. Salt water and fresh water. Male and Female. Having a mate is part and parcel of being a created creature. God alone is single. God alone is complete with no need of any partner. Sex, then, is the manifestation and fulfillment of the essence of humankind as created beings.
Further, the Qur'an tells us that God created mankind with certain innate qualities -- a yearning toward the Divine, the ability to recognize right and wrong, and the inclination toward virtue, including love and mercy which are two of God's greatest characteristics. Sex, as an expression of that love and mercy, is not only according to human nature, but a Godly act in as much as God is Loving and Merciful.
As for the Prophet's insistence that the woman's pleasure is as important as the man's, this again echoes the Qur'anic view of human beings. While many Muslims today talk about the different and complementary roles men and women play in society and in marriage, the Qur'an makes no such distinction. Indeed, it doesn't even have separate words for husband and wife; rather both are called "zauj." They are, quite literally, equal partners to one another. Small wonder, then, that the Prophet would teach that women's enjoyment deserves as much consideration as men's.
On a more personal level, I am struck that this affirmation of sex tells us something interesting about God as understood by Islam. On the one hand, the Prophet taught us that the highest achievement a believer can strive for is the constant awareness of God. And yet, at the same time, Islam frowns on monasticism, and on abstinence, and encourages this act which pretty much guarantees our focus will be somewhere else. God, then, is not petty, or jealous. Nor does God expect perfection, only a sincere attempt at goodness.
posted
How did this turn into a religious diaglogue? I expect this in the religion section. But back to what VB was saying, which IMO was extremely interesting, that the honor of the entire family lies between the legs of the girls. I couldn't agree more...I also do agree that Egyptian women receive such mixed signals. I absolutely LOVE the response to the idea: they are only copying the west (in reference to the overtly sexual behavior/dress/acts) was: why not adopt some good things then. Amen. As if everything in the West is bad, evil evil Devil-West, yes I guess we are all just a bunch of moral-less heathens who walk down the streets shaking our boobs and the men grabbing themselves. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: Prince of Nothing - maybe you are so conditioned to believe that if your not thinking about it, seeing it, doing it, feeling it every second of every day then there must be something wrong?
I'll be the first to admit that Western culture is "oversexed," but on the same token, you must be willing to admit that Arab culture is sexually repressed, and this has some dramatic effects upon the culture itself..
And what makes you think Arab people aren't thinking about it, seeing it and feeling it every second of the day?
According to Google trends, Egypt is the NUMBER ONE country which searches for "sex" on the internet, and Arabic is the number one language which most of these searches use.
So, it's quite obvious that Arab people are thinking about sex very much; even more than their Western counterparts if Google is to be believed.
quote:just because people dont go around advertising what they do in the bedroom doesn't mean they dont do the same things that the people in the west do.
This issue goes far beyond sex in the bedroom behind closed doors.
It also encompasses simple everyday male to female interaction.
For example, when I first visited Kuwait and I saw many grown men holding hands with each other in the street, rather than men holding hands with women, I found it indicative of the STATUS QUO in Arab countries.
The status quo being, that due to some blind religious crapola, heterosexuality itself is being PERSECUTED with varying intensity.
In Saudi Arabia for instance, you cannot even be seen with a member of the opposite sex in public unless you're married to, or related to them.
To do so without meeting the criteria is PUNISHABLE BY LAW.
Yet there are no stipulations against talking (or fraternizing) with other people of the same sex, and believe me, quite a bit of fraternization with the same sex goes on in countries like Saudi Arabia where normal healthy heterosexuality is persectuted.
Saudi Arabia is an extreme example, but the same approach can be seen in practically every Arab nation to some degree.
Like VanillaBullshit said, when he can't walk down a street holding hands with a girl without being scrutinzed, something is definitely wrong.
posted
My last year time was in vain. I hoped I could change something but seems there is no way.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: Prince of Nothing - maybe you are so conditioned to believe that if your not thinking about it, seeing it, doing it, feeling it every second of every day then there must be something wrong?
I'll be the first to admit that Western culture is "oversexed," but on the same token, you must be willing to admit that Arab culture is sexually repressed, and this has some dramatic effects upon the culture itself..
And what makes you think Arab people aren't thinking about it, seeing it and feeling it every second of the day?
According to Google trends, Egypt is the NUMBER ONE country which searches for "sex" on the internet, and Arabic is the number one language which most of these searches use.
So, it's quite obvious that Arab people are thinking about sex very much; even more than their Western counterparts if Google is to be believed.
quote:just because people dont go around advertising what they do in the bedroom doesn't mean they dont do the same things that the people in the west do.
This issue goes far beyond sex in the bedroom behind closed doors.
It also encompasses simple everyday male to female interaction.
For example, when I first visited Kuwait and I saw many grown men holding hands with each other in the street, rather than men holding hands with women, I found it indicative of the STATUS QUO in Arab countries.
The status quo being, that due to some blind religious crapola, heterosexuality itself is being PERSECUTED with varying intensity.
In Saudi Arabia for instance, you cannot even be seen with a member of the opposite sex in public unless you're married to, or related to them.
To do so without meeting the criteria is PUNISHABLE BY LAW.
Yet there are no stipulations against talking (or fraternizing) with other people of the same sex, and believe me, quite a bit of fraternization with the same sex goes on in countries like Saudi Arabia where normal healthy heterosexuality is persectuted.
Saudi Arabia is an extreme example, but the same approach can be seen in practically every Arab nation to some degree.
Like VanillaBullshit said, when he can't walk down a street holding hands with a girl without being scrutinzed, something is definitely wrong.
~Alistair
“For example, when I first visited Kuwait and I saw many grown men holding hands with each other in the street, rather than men holding hands with women, I found it indicative of the STATUS QUO in Arab countries.” -PON
This is fallacious assumption. Males holding hands is not the norm in the Levant(Jordan, Lebanon, Syria), nor in Babylon (Iraq), nor is it in Algeria and Tunisia. It’s not as prevalent in Egypt as it is in the Arabian Peninsula.
“Like VanillaBullshit said, when he can't walk down a street holding hands with a girl without being scrutinzed, something is definitely wrong.”- PON
I think ES suffers from exaggeration because thousands and thousands of men and women could be seen holding hands in Cairo. Simply ask the men and women living in Cairo and ask them to describe the scenes along the corniche.Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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I think ES suffers from exaggeration because thousands and thousands of men and women could be seen holding hands in Cairo. Simply ask the men and women living in Cairo and ask them to describe the scenes along the corniche.
quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: Prince of Nothing - maybe you are so conditioned to believe that if your not thinking about it, seeing it, doing it, feeling it every second of every day then there must be something wrong?
I'll be the first to admit that Western culture is "oversexed," but on the same token, you must be willing to admit that Arab culture is sexually repressed, and this has some dramatic effects upon the culture itself..
And what makes you think Arab people aren't thinking about it, seeing it and feeling it every second of the day?
According to Google trends, Egypt is the NUMBER ONE country which searches for "sex" on the internet, and Arabic is the number one language which most of these searches use.
So, it's quite obvious that Arab people are thinking about sex very much; even more than their Western counterparts if Google is to be believed.
quote:just because people dont go around advertising what they do in the bedroom doesn't mean they dont do the same things that the people in the west do.
This issue goes far beyond sex in the bedroom behind closed doors.
It also encompasses simple everyday male to female interaction.
For example, when I first visited Kuwait and I saw many grown men holding hands with each other in the street, rather than men holding hands with women, I found it indicative of the STATUS QUO in Arab countries.
The status quo being, that due to some blind religious crapola, heterosexuality itself is being PERSECUTED with varying intensity.
In Saudi Arabia for instance, you cannot even be seen with a member of the opposite sex in public unless you're married to, or related to them.
To do so without meeting the criteria is PUNISHABLE BY LAW.
Yet there are no stipulations against talking (or fraternizing) with other people of the same sex, and believe me, quite a bit of fraternization with the same sex goes on in countries like Saudi Arabia where normal healthy heterosexuality is persectuted.
Saudi Arabia is an extreme example, but the same approach can be seen in practically every Arab nation to some degree.
Like VanillaBullshit said, when he can't walk down a street holding hands with a girl without being scrutinzed, something is definitely wrong.
~Alistair
“According to Google trends, Egypt is the NUMBER ONE country which searches for "sex" on the internet, and Arabic is the number one language which most of these searches use.” PON
Well Alhamdulillah it is not ‘number one’ in homosexuality. The top 7 are reserved by:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: [QUOTE]You can regulate the legal aspects of a couple marrying or getting divorced, and that's fine. But trying to regulate their emotions, their sexual life, their behaviour and feelings towards each other by rules and regulations is bound to failure. If one of the partners does not want sex with the other, it's important to find out the reasons, to talk, to seek counselling, to try to understand the other. Forcing one of them will not solve anything, but create resentment or even hate and make matters worse.
As in any society and under any set of law, there are certain actions by one or the other partner that can be grounds for divorce, if the other partner wishes to pursue that course of action. If both partners come from the same society, they are usually acquainted with the laws of their country. ana uhibbuk's husband was saying that she was being unreasonable in her requests for intimacy, saying that her reaction was American and not Egyptian, and that it was up to him to decide when or if they would have sex. The point of the post was to let her know that the information he was giving her was incorrect even under Islam and to let her know what her rights were so she would know where she stands according to Islam.
Many Muslim men play that game and feed their wives incorrect information about Islam to deprive the women of their rights and give the men more than they are entitled to. I was just trying to even up the playing field a little, by giving ana some information that she may not have known.
It would no way force her husband to do anything he didn't want to do, but it would give her a fuller picture of the situation to work out how she wanted to proceed. As Sobriquet said, if the couple still cannot resolve the situation between them, the next stage Islamically would be to go for counselling and to try to resolve the problems and try to avoid divorce if an amicable solution can be found. Nobody is trying to force anyone to do anything, just pass on information.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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I think ES suffers from exaggeration because thousands and thousands of men and women could be seen holding hands in Cairo. Simply ask the men and women living in Cairo and ask them to describe the scenes along the corniche.
quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: This is fallacious assumption. Males holding hands is not the norm in the Levant(Jordan, Lebanon, Syria), nor in Babylon (Iraq), nor is it in Algeria and Tunisia. It’s not as prevalent in Egypt as it is in the Arabian Peninsula.
Well I never said it was the norm, and Kuwait is not in the Levant, but in the Gulf region as you well know.
I'm not even saying this has anything to do with homosexuality. I was just pointing out an observation that in Kuwait, men holding hands with other men was more common than men holding hands with women (or so it seemed to me) to expose the status quo; which is that male to female interaction is heavily scrutinized in the Arab World, and in some cases, even ILLEGAL.
quote:I think ES suffers from exaggeration because thousands and thousands of men and women could be seen holding hands in Cairo. Simply ask the men and women living in Cairo and ask them to describe the scenes along the corniche. [/qb]
I'll have to let VB handle this one, as he undoubtedly has greater experience with Egypt than I.
I've heard all sorts of stories about Egypt on this issue, but I can't say whether or not they're true or false.
I didn't find the link, it was Smuckers who first posted it.
Yes, the pics are great, they are so typical Cairo. Everyone suggesting men and women aren't holding hands in Egypt should take a close look at them. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Homosexuals are persecuted in the Arab World, so this doesn't surprise me. Egypt is famous for persecuting it's gay population.
But this entire debate isn't about whether homosexuality is more prevalent in the West or the Arab World.
In all likelihood, there is no significant difference. Typically, homosexuals comprise about 3 to 5% of the population, regardless of what region with the exception of places like Amsterdam and San Francisco where gays congregate, it probably spikes to 8 or 10%..
My point is really that male to female relationships are heavily scrutinized in the Arab World (and in some circumstances, even PERSECUTED), much moreso than male to male or female to female.
In the Islamic countries (I mean those which govern based on Islamic penal code), this is undisputable.
quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: This is fallacious assumption. Males holding hands is not the norm in the Levant(Jordan, Lebanon, Syria), nor in Babylon (Iraq), nor is it in Algeria and Tunisia. It’s not as prevalent in Egypt as it is in the Arabian Peninsula.
Well I never said it was the norm, and Kuwait is not in the Levant, but in the Gulf region as you well know.
I'm not even saying this has anything to do with homosexuality. I was just pointing out an observation that in Kuwait, men holding hands with other men was more common than men holding hands with women (or so it seemed to me) to expose the status quo; which is that male to female interaction is heavily scrutinized in the Arab World, and in some cases, even ILLEGAL.
quote:I think ES suffers from exaggeration because thousands and thousands of men and women could be seen holding hands in Cairo. Simply ask the men and women living in Cairo and ask them to describe the scenes along the corniche.
I'll have to let VB handle this one, as he undoubtedly has greater experience with Egypt than I.
I've heard all sorts of stories about Egypt on this issue, but I can't say whether or not they're true or false.
~Alistair [/QB]
The only nation where it is ‘illegal’ to hold hands (by unmarried couples) is Saudia Arabia. That is the only nation in the Arab World. Several provinces in Sudan also ban holding hands by unmarried couples. To stigmatize the entire Arab world is not only unfair but it is also misleading many members here.
You, VB or anyone else for that matter can misconstrue or exaggerate the situation. The fact does not change and I am confident that members like Dalia who live there will call out those exaggerating and spreading lies. It seems some members are disgruntled with Egyptian society and the Middle East and whatever they say is taken for fact by those who are already predisposed with bias.
This is actually problematic, because we have members here who haven’t lived in or visited Egypt and such misleading information could very well deceive them and affect their thoughts on Egypt.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: The only nation where it is ‘illegal’ to hold hands (by unmarried couples) is Saudia Arabia. That is the only nation in the Arab World. Several provinces in Sudan also ban holding hands by unmarried couples. To stigmatize the entire Arab world is not only unfair but it is also misleading many members here.
I'm not stigmatizing the entire Arab World. I already said, that there are many degrees of this phenomena, with Saudi Arabia being the most extreme.
In Egypt, it may manifest itself as single sex only modes of transportation for example.
In other words, the idea is to separate both sexes from each other, unless they are married or related.
This sort of reasoning seems to pervade the Arab World to some degree or another, and is undoubtedly connected to Islam.
quote:You, VB or anyone else for that matter can misconstrue or exaggerate the situation. The fact does not change and I am confident that members like Dalia who live there will call out those exaggerating and spreading lies. It seems some members are disgruntled with Egyptian society and the Middle East and whatever they say is taken for fact by those who are already predisposed with bias.
This is actually problematic, because we have members here who haven’t lived in or visited Egypt and such misleading information could very well deceive them and affect their thoughts on Egypt.
I rarely ever post specifics on Egypt, for the simple fact that I have only visited Egypt once (and only on layover) so I have practically no experience.
All of my experience in the Arab World was in the Gulf region.
Anyway, VB IS AN EGYPTIAN in case you didn't know, and he also lives in Egypt if I'm not mistaken.
So to simply cast aside his opinion as mere exaggeration born from discontent, is hardly being fair
quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: The only nation where it is ‘illegal’ to hold hands (by unmarried couples) is Saudia Arabia. That is the only nation in the Arab World. Several provinces in Sudan also ban holding hands by unmarried couples. To stigmatize the entire Arab world is not only unfair but it is also misleading many members here.
I'm not stigmatizing the entire Arab World. I already said, that there are many degrees of this phenomena, with Saudi Arabia being the most extreme.
In Egypt, it may manifest itself as single sex only modes of transportation for example.
In other words, the idea is to separate both sexes from each other, unless they are married or related.
This sort of reasoning seems to pervade the Arab World to some degree or another, and is undoubtedly connected to Islam.
quote:You, VB or anyone else for that matter can misconstrue or exaggerate the situation. The fact does not change and I am confident that members like Dalia who live there will call out those exaggerating and spreading lies. It seems some members are disgruntled with Egyptian society and the Middle East and whatever they say is taken for fact by those who are already predisposed with bias.
This is actually problematic, because we have members here who haven’t lived in or visited Egypt and such misleading information could very well deceive them and affect their thoughts on Egypt.
I rarely ever post specifics on Egypt, for the simple fact that I have only visited Egypt once (and only on layover) so I have practically no experience.
All of my experience in the Arab World was in the Gulf region.
Anyway, VB IS AN EGYPTIAN in case you didn't know, and he also lives in Egypt if I'm not mistaken.
So to simply cast aside his opinion as mere exaggeration born from discontent, is hardly being fair
~Alistair
Oh you didn’t get the memo?!
VB is disgruntled with everything Arabic, Egyptian and Islamic. It is his right and I don’t blame him in many regards. He’s funny so maybe he said it in jest. Let’s keep it real though holding hands in public is not a problem at all. Kissing on the other hand is. It’s all over, in the streets, in the malls, in universities.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: This is fallacious assumption. Males holding hands is not the norm in the Levant(Jordan, Lebanon, Syria), nor in Babylon (Iraq), nor is it in Algeria and Tunisia. It’s not as prevalent in Egypt as it is in the Arabian Peninsula.
Well I never said it was the norm, and Kuwait is not in the Levant, but in the Gulf region as you well know.
I'm not even saying this has anything to do with homosexuality. I was just pointing out an observation that in Kuwait, men holding hands with other men was more common than men holding hands with women (or so it seemed to me) to expose the status quo; which is that male to female interaction is heavily scrutinized in the Arab World, and in some cases, even ILLEGAL.
quote:I think ES suffers from exaggeration because thousands and thousands of men and women could be seen holding hands in Cairo. Simply ask the men and women living in Cairo and ask them to describe the scenes along the corniche.
I'll have to let VB handle this one, as he undoubtedly has greater experience with Egypt than I.
I've heard all sorts of stories about Egypt on this issue, but I can't say whether or not they're true or false.
~Alistair
The only nation where it is ‘illegal’ to hold hands (by unmarried couples) is Saudia Arabia. That is the only nation in the Arab World. Several provinces in Sudan also ban holding hands by unmarried couples. To stigmatize the entire Arab world is not only unfair but it is also misleading many members here.
You, VB or anyone else for that matter can misconstrue or exaggerate the situation. The fact does not change and I am confident that members like Dalia who live there will call out those exaggerating and spreading lies. It seems some members are disgruntled with Egyptian society and the Middle East and whatever they say is taken for fact by those who are already predisposed with bias.
This is actually problematic, because we have members here who haven’t lived in or visited Egypt and such misleading information could very well deceive them and affect their thoughts on Egypt. [/QB]
VB only said it was frowned upon and that you get lots of stares if you do it and in certain parts of Egypt that is SO TRUE, with exception to the corniche. ( ) He didn't say it never happens and VB also lives in Egypt, as he is Egyptian. True there are some 'disgruntled' with some things about Egypt or IMO frustrated by some things here but that doesn't make those things any less true. My two cents.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet:
quote:Originally posted by Prince of Nothing:
quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: This is fallacious assumption. Males holding hands is not the norm in the Levant(Jordan, Lebanon, Syria), nor in Babylon (Iraq), nor is it in Algeria and Tunisia. It’s not as prevalent in Egypt as it is in the Arabian Peninsula.
Well I never said it was the norm, and Kuwait is not in the Levant, but in the Gulf region as you well know.
I'm not even saying this has anything to do with homosexuality. I was just pointing out an observation that in Kuwait, men holding hands with other men was more common than men holding hands with women (or so it seemed to me) to expose the status quo; which is that male to female interaction is heavily scrutinized in the Arab World, and in some cases, even ILLEGAL.
quote:I think ES suffers from exaggeration because thousands and thousands of men and women could be seen holding hands in Cairo. Simply ask the men and women living in Cairo and ask them to describe the scenes along the corniche.
I'll have to let VB handle this one, as he undoubtedly has greater experience with Egypt than I.
I've heard all sorts of stories about Egypt on this issue, but I can't say whether or not they're true or false.
~Alistair
The only nation where it is ‘illegal’ to hold hands (by unmarried couples) is Saudia Arabia. That is the only nation in the Arab World. Several provinces in Sudan also ban holding hands by unmarried couples. To stigmatize the entire Arab world is not only unfair but it is also misleading many members here.
You, VB or anyone else for that matter can misconstrue or exaggerate the situation. The fact does not change and I am confident that members like Dalia who live there will call out those exaggerating and spreading lies. It seems some members are disgruntled with Egyptian society and the Middle East and whatever they say is taken for fact by those who are already predisposed with bias.
This is actually problematic, because we have members here who haven’t lived in or visited Egypt and such misleading information could very well deceive them and affect their thoughts on Egypt.
VB only said it was frowned upon and that you get lots of stares if you do it and in certain parts of Egypt that is SO TRUE, with exception to the corniche. ( ) He didn't say it never happens and VB also lives in Egypt, as he is Egyptian. True there are some 'disgruntled' with some things about Egypt or IMO frustrated by some things here but that doesn't make those things any less true. My two cents. [/QB]
You're trying to say the only exception is the corniche?
You ever lived in Maadi, Helipolis, Zamalek, etc?
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: Oh you didn’t get the memo?!
Batman?
quote:VB is disgruntled with everything Arabic, Egyptian and Islamic. It is his right and I don’t blame him in many regards. He’s funny so maybe he said it in jest. Let’s keep it real though holding hands in public is not a problem at all. Kissing on the other hand is. It’s all over, in the streets, in the malls, in universities.
VB isn't the only Egyptian or Arab I've heard express similar sentiment.
It would be interesting to hear an Egyptian woman's perspective on this.
quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: Oh you didn’t get the memo?!
Batman?
quote:VB is disgruntled with everything Arabic, Egyptian and Islamic. It is his right and I don’t blame him in many regards. He’s funny so maybe he said it in jest. Let’s keep it real though holding hands in public is not a problem at all. Kissing on the other hand is. It’s all over, in the streets, in the malls, in universities.
VB isn't the only Egyptian or Arab I've heard express similar sentiment.
It would be interesting to hear an Egyptian woman's perspective on this.
Like MK perhaps.
~Alistair
I don't get the 'batman' and i agree i wish people living in Egypt would share their opinions.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Oh!!! I get it, as in batman sending out the memo. Noooo it was a silly quib. You’ll have to excuse me I am a little slow today.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet:
quote:Originally posted by Prince of Nothing:
quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: This is fallacious assumption. Males holding hands is not the norm in the Levant(Jordan, Lebanon, Syria), nor in Babylon (Iraq), nor is it in Algeria and Tunisia. It’s not as prevalent in Egypt as it is in the Arabian Peninsula.
Well I never said it was the norm, and Kuwait is not in the Levant, but in the Gulf region as you well know.
I'm not even saying this has anything to do with homosexuality. I was just pointing out an observation that in Kuwait, men holding hands with other men was more common than men holding hands with women (or so it seemed to me) to expose the status quo; which is that male to female interaction is heavily scrutinized in the Arab World, and in some cases, even ILLEGAL.
quote:I think ES suffers from exaggeration because thousands and thousands of men and women could be seen holding hands in Cairo. Simply ask the men and women living in Cairo and ask them to describe the scenes along the corniche.
I'll have to let VB handle this one, as he undoubtedly has greater experience with Egypt than I.
I've heard all sorts of stories about Egypt on this issue, but I can't say whether or not they're true or false.
~Alistair
The only nation where it is ‘illegal’ to hold hands (by unmarried couples) is Saudia Arabia. That is the only nation in the Arab World. Several provinces in Sudan also ban holding hands by unmarried couples. To stigmatize the entire Arab world is not only unfair but it is also misleading many members here.
You, VB or anyone else for that matter can misconstrue or exaggerate the situation. The fact does not change and I am confident that members like Dalia who live there will call out those exaggerating and spreading lies. It seems some members are disgruntled with Egyptian society and the Middle East and whatever they say is taken for fact by those who are already predisposed with bias.
This is actually problematic, because we have members here who haven’t lived in or visited Egypt and such misleading information could very well deceive them and affect their thoughts on Egypt.
VB only said it was frowned upon and that you get lots of stares if you do it and in certain parts of Egypt that is SO TRUE, with exception to the corniche. ( ) He didn't say it never happens and VB also lives in Egypt, as he is Egyptian. True there are some 'disgruntled' with some things about Egypt or IMO frustrated by some things here but that doesn't make those things any less true. My two cents.
You're trying to say the only exception is the corniche?
You ever lived in Maadi, Helipolis, Zamalek, etc?
[/QB]
I never said only, let us not split hairs.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: Oh!!! I get it, as in batman sending out the memo. Noooo it was a silly quib. You’ll have to excuse me I am a little slow today.
Haha, actually I thought you were quoting the Batman Begins movie, where the CEO asks Morgan Freeman,"Didn't you get the memo?!"
posted
Sobriquet, what are you wearing today? Argyle socks, khaki shorts and leather sandals?
Who gives a rusty phuck?
That right there homes is what disgruntles me.
I have the balls to point out what everyone else pretends not to see, and the words to articulate it, you however seem only interested in describing your wardrobe.
If I'm too abrasive, don't let your browser window hit you in your fucking khaki shorts on the way out.
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: Sobriquet, what are you wearing today? Argyle socks, khaki shorts and leather sandals?
Who gives a rusty phuck?
That right there homes is what disgruntles me.
I have the balls to point out what everyone else pretends not to see, and the words to articulate it, you however seem only interested in describing your wardrobe.
If I'm too abrasive, don't let your browser window hit you in your fucking khaki shorts on the way out.
Lets get something straight! I never wear socks with my sandals.
Now with regards to the subject at hand when there is disagreement let the masses speak. It’s not about me and it is certainly not about you. Alhamdulillah we have several members who actually live in Egypt and they can offer their own opinions.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: Lets get something straight! I never wear socks with my sandals.
Now with regards to the subject at hand when there is disagreement let the masses speak. It’s not about me and it is certainly not about you. Alhamdulillah we have several members who actually live in Egypt and they can offer their own opinions.
How is relating my experiences synonymous to making it about me?
Yes, I live in egypt; if you had bothered to read my post rather to try to introduce a red herring into the argument & try to put words in my mouth, you would know that I lived more than half my life abroad, the other half was in egypt.
The fact that I have to explain that proves that you're a histrionic little fag that likes to jump to conclusions and doesn't read posts before trying to answer them.
Posts: 2404 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: Lets get something straight! I never wear socks with my sandals.
Now with regards to the subject at hand when there is disagreement let the masses speak. It’s not about me and it is certainly not about you. Alhamdulillah we have several members who actually live in Egypt and they can offer their own opinions.
How is relating my experiences synonymous to making it about me?
Yes, I live in egypt; if you had bothered to read my post rather to try to introduce a red herring into the argument & try to put words in my mouth, you would know that I lived more than half my life abroad, the other half was in egypt.
The fact that I have to explain that proves that you're a histrionic little fag that likes to jump to conclusions and doesn't read posts before trying to answer them.
I see someone is rabid. Excuse me for even mentioning such trash.
Lesson learned.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Prince of Nothing: I'd even go so far as to say that alot of the social unrest which plagues the Middle East could likely be traced to the sexual frustration in the populations.
~Alistair
Truer words never spoken.
social unrest does not exist elsewhere?
That statement btw in MY OPINION is as primative as a man telling a woman to walk around with a blanket over her because she is too much of a distraction.
Disclaimer:I did not call you primative, so please don't respond to this like I did.
Posts: 483 | From: cairo | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Prince of Nothing: I'd even go so far as to say that alot of the social unrest which plagues the Middle East could likely be traced to the sexual frustration in the populations.
~Alistair
Truer words never spoken.
social unrest does not exist elsewhere?
That statement btw in MY OPINION is as primative as a man telling a woman to walk around with a blanket over her because she is too much of a distraction.
Disclaimer:I did not call you primative, so please don't respond to this like I did.
I missed that completely “social unrest’. Where is the social unrest at?
Jordan Morocco Tunisia Libya Kuwait Oman Bahrain Qatar UAE Egypt Syria Saudia Arabia
The only nations where there is major social unrest is Iraq a country occupied by the USA.
The others are:
Yemen (Shia rebels vs Government forces in Sa3da and previously South yemen rebels) Sudan (southern Sudan vs North Sudan + darfur) Lebanon (Shia vs Sunni/maronite unity
P.O.N educate yourself you are stigmatizing again! Some of us actually live/lived in Egypt, some of us actually live in the Middle East. Some of us actually know a whole lot about the middle east beyond your typical biased newscast.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
CairoBug is right about it existing everywhere. What about Sri Lanka? You should travel to the Northern parts of Mexico and look at the social unrest going on there, what about the poverty ridden streets of Brazil and Honduras, there is social unrest going on with the gang wars there you couldn't believe. The social unrest from gang wars also exists in america herself in some parts of some cities. I don't think America has to be 'involved' to have the soceity in unrest...also the leaders of the mideast countries are just as much of chicken hawks as anyone else. I'm the last one to defend american policies in the mideast but the first to say when you point fingers there are 4 others pointing back at yourself.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet in khaki shorts & sandals: Some of us actually live/lived in Egypt, some of us actually live in the Middle East. Some of us actually know a whole lot about the middle east beyond your typical biased newscast.
The key to understanding any culture is a clear understanding & fluency in the language of said culture.
You are not fluent in arabic and yet you "know a whole lot" about the mid-east.....I don't think so, chief.
Posts: 2404 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Hello hitman,I have just seen your photos they are very funny!!lol I have recently been to egypt twice and I love it there!! I am already planning to go back. It is such a magical place.lol
Posts: 1 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet in khaki shorts & sandals: Some of us actually live/lived in Egypt, some of us actually live in the Middle East. Some of us actually know a whole lot about the middle east beyond your typical biased newscast.
The key to understanding any culture is a clear understanding & fluency in the language of said culture.
You are not fluent in arabic and yet you "know a whole lot" about the mid-east.....I don't think so, chief.
Vanilla Bullshit versus a huge, puffed up hairball by the new name of Sobriquet.
My money is on the smart Vanilla.
PS: Great arguments by Dalia and VB. There has been little else of interest here for a while.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by cairobug: social unrest does not exist elsewhere?
Um, where did I say this?
quote:That statement btw in MY OPINION is as primative as a man telling a woman to walk around with a blanket over her because she is too much of a distraction.
Disclaimer:I did not call you primative, so please don't respond to this like I did.
I don't even understand what you're getting at.
You claim I said something, which I never even said.
Please read carefully what I write, because I hate repeating myself.
quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: I missed that completely “social unrest’. Where is the social unrest at?
Jordan Morocco Tunisia Libya Kuwait Oman Bahrain Qatar UAE Egypt Syria Saudia Arabia
The only nations where there is major social unrest is Iraq a country occupied by the USA.
The others are:
Yemen (Shia rebels vs Government forces in Sa3da and previously South yemen rebels) Sudan (southern Sudan vs North Sudan + darfur) Lebanon (Shia vs Sunni/maronite unity
P.O.N educate yourself you are stigmatizing again! Some of us actually live/lived in Egypt, some of us actually live in the Middle East. Some of us actually know a whole lot about the middle east beyond your typical biased newscast.
Dunes, the term "Social unrest" is a very broad term which relates to social issues, rather than political..
And by social issues, I was mostly referring to the way in which women are treated in the Arab nations.
Now if you want to imply that women in Arab nations are generally treated well, similarly to how you attempt to imply that everything in the Middle East is all fine and dandy with the exception of a "few" nations, then go right ahead dude.
But anyone with sense knows the truth, and you DON'T need to live in the Middle East to form a valid opinion on this.
Certain things are simply undisputable due to overwhelming evidence.
Actually, despite the fact that you have alot of practical experience in the Arab nations, your opinion comes across as biased and uninformed.
It is clear that you're looking at the Arab World through the rose colored lenses of someone trying to discover part of his heritage, whereas Vanilla is just telling it like it is.
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: CairoBug is right about it existing everywhere.
How does this even relate to the discussion at hand?
This is what I don't get. We're talking about Egypt and the Middle East, so how the hell did social unrest ELSEWHERE enter the equation?
Did Cairobug think I meant that social unrest only occurs in the Middle East?
How could he/she come to such a notion after reading my statement:
quote:I'd even go so far as to say that alot of the social unrest which plagues the Middle East could likely be traced to the sexual frustration in the populations.
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: I think poverty can breed social unrest.
There are many factors that can cause social unrest, ie poverty, unemployment, racism, religious extremism etc..
Sexual frustration is another one, and this tends to occur in cultures where sex and normal gender relations are stigmatized.
~Alistair
I do understand your point and have even thought it myself. I cannot comprehend the frustration in staying a virgin till in your 30's. I just want to suggest that it could be a universal frustration brought on by various variables.
Look at ana, she is sexually frustrated in her marriage.
I feel sexually frustrated but not because it is not avaible but because I want something more than just a sexual encounter. To make it clear I have plenty who want something more with me but I don't feel anything in my heart for those I have met here. I don't find enjoyment in just using someone for sex. Well, not complete fullment and the little pleasure there is taken away by how it feels after.
What is the soloution?
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
You never know how sexist a man is until you are in a position that really tests this. I have personally experienced it from western as well as middle eastern men (and I'm not saying by any means I ran into 1 guy that was like this, I'm talking on average as a whole). The conclusion I have reached is that people have much more in common than they'd like to think. Men are men, they just express themselves in different ways around the world--but the problem still exists. To a more or less extent in the middle east? There are some things that don't seem to change, women have a long way to go AROUND (not just in this part of) the world.
I realize you mentioned the middle east, but if your saying that the cause of the social unrest may possibly be attributed to this sexual frustration; I was left to ask is this a possible underlying cause where it exists elsewhere? or are you implying that humans are so primative that they cannot seem to work past these urges? (In my opinion, the latter is the same excuse that 'extremists' use in favor of 'cover the women' we can't control ourselves).
I read your comment well, and just offered my take on the point you mentioned. You don't have to worry about my reading level, trust me on that--I apologize if I don't take this forum at times as seriously as some people post. I really just read it for anything related to Egypt (this is just junkfood for my brain), not to engage in a point for point debate.
On another note, everyone has their own experiences in what they encounter in Egypt and elsewhere. My experiences are no less important than yours, and vice versa. There is no absolute. We all present our views: peachy, horrible, etc.
-------------------- Disclaimer: My posts are not meant to personally offend anyone. If you find yourself reading my posts repeatedly, you are kindly asked to seek the help of a professional Posts: 483 | From: cairo | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by pseudovellum: I live in Egypt
It is NOT unusual to see couples holding hands be it male/male or male/female and not just the Corniche.
Cairo, Sharm, Alex, Port Said, Hurghada, Aswan, Luxor.
I am curious as to why the males are holding hands. It is quite unusual to see men holding hands here.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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