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Author Topic: Pregnant and Unmarried In Egypt
Dubai Girl
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I was back in the British Embassy in Cairo this morning waiting to collect my notice of marriage. A Young Couple in their early twenties came in, he was scottish she was egyptian. At first I assumed she was Christian as her hair wasn't covered. she looked to be about 6 months pregnant.
They went to the counter together and said they wanted to get married and he needed to apply for a notice of marriage. The woman at the counter then said he needed to have converted to Islam, to which he confirmed he had after that they filled out their forms and left hand in hand.

My father in law who is Egyptian was with me and he was quite shocked that she was obviously pregnant and they were unmarried, to me coming from a western culture this is fairly normal and didn't faze me, although I know Egypt views this differently and is a very conservative community. It got me thinking as to whether attitudes here are changing. Obviously unmarried pregnancies do happen in Egypt, my soon to be husband who is 31 can remember a girl from his school getting pregnant, but it was very much hushed up and she was sent away as he remembers, a bit like they used to do to unmarried mothers in England up until the mid 70s. This is not the case at all any more and you are no longer looked upon any differently (in my opinion) if you are unmarried and have a child.

Do you think people here's attitudes are changing
?I would be interested to know your views on this?

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Usually, when a girl gets pregnant, there are two possibilities: She marries the father or someone else who wants to do that (for whatever reason that might be) or she gets an abortion.
Thats when she has a family behind. Thought it happens that girls, out of reach for their families, are getting pregnant, and have no place to go. They are preys for bad willing men.
I never heard about girls who are visable pregant without being married, because her family would not allow this.
Maybe you saw the exception on the rule...

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Clear and QSY
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I was 20 and unmarried when I became pregnant with my son in 1988 (in USA). My strict Irish-Catholic family promptly disowned me and still to this day has not spoken a word to me. I remember travelling for the first time to Egypt and Jordan a few years ago. I struck up a conversation with a houseguest of the family I was staying with. I mentioned I had a son and the woman asked me where my husband was. I told her I was not married and she lectured me for the next half hour about how inappropriate this was. I should have just told her I was divorced apparently that would have been more culturally acceptable - she would have just looked at me and felt pity.

It's an interesting question really. It would be nice to think the attitudes are changing, but I think it's too much to hope for right now. This culture still considers a divorced woman taboo. I don't think it is ready to accept single parents.

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I fell pregnant right to this day exactly 11 years ago and had just started working for a wellknown advertising agency in Cairo. I had to quit even if my boss (female and divorced which I found quite interesting) insisted I should stay. I said to Heba: "Look I am pregnant and not married, how long it's gonna take that people here will talk about it - even that I am a foreigner??"
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stayingput
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Most unusual.

Most unusual indeed.

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Clear and QSY
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quote:
Originally posted by ?????:
Usually, when a girl gets pregnant, there are two possibilities: She marries the father or someone else who wants to do that (for whatever reason that might be) or she gets an abortion.


Which raises an entirely different topic...where exactly would a girl go to get an abortion in Egypt? I'm sure there are plenty of illegal back-alley places, but how does she find out about them? Surely there are not too many people she can confide in to help her.
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Slewth
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Or places that would be safe to do so. Think of the women who died during the procedure due to unclean, unskilled practicioners preying on the desperate women.
Used to be like that in the USA years ago, then along came Roe vs. Wade and now women are free to make the choice, and have to answer to only God.

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bob the dog
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I have a Russian friend who went to a doctor in Cairo for an abortion.
She was surprised by the cleanliness and professionalism at the place..... but it was very expensive.

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Culture Club
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I never heard and see pregnant and unmarried girls walk outdoors freely, I though her family and friends will recognize her, sah?. Maybe some of them, but they hide inside home and not to go out or sent to other places far away from home.

It is good that the western boyfriend of her will marry her even a lot of requirements needed.

I think there is no marriage for pregnant and unmarried girl. He must wait till she delivers the baby. Correct me if I am wrong.

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quote:
Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:
quote:
Originally posted by ?????:
Usually, when a girl gets pregnant, there are two possibilities: She marries the father or someone else who wants to do that (for whatever reason that might be) or she gets an abortion.


Which raises an entirely different topic...where exactly would a girl go to get an abortion in Egypt? I'm sure there are plenty of illegal back-alley places, but how does she find out about them? Surely there are not too many people she can confide in to help her.
That's a male task. Ask around, informing by friends who are trustworthy. Of course when something is supposed to be a secret, they have to be very carefull in this. But there is no other solution...
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Clear and QSY
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quote:
Originally posted by Slewth:
Or places that would be safe to do so. Think of the women who died during the procedure due to unclean, unskilled practicioners preying on the desperate women.
Used to be like that in the USA years ago, then along came Roe vs. Wade and now women are free to make the choice, and have to answer to only God.

Well that is exactly what I was thinking...that these would be unsafe procedures. Just like it used to be in the States and many, many women died. I know some people who work in the healthcare field in Cairo and they both say that Egypt's mainstream healthcare is so "primative" and so far behind the times. I can only imagine it would be worse for a procedure like an abortion that is not sanctioned. No doctor can advertise that he has the "state of the art equipment". No Planned Parenthood to give girls referrals. And I would assume, if the girl died during the procedure, there would be no accountability because the cause of death would most likely be altered.

It would be interesting to study this subject more in depth, but virtually impossible. Every girl that is has ever happened to would be forbidden to speak about it.

On the flip side - I think it is very easy to get birth control pills in Egypt. Maybe even easier than the States. The pharmacist won't sell birth control pills to an unmarried Egyptian woman without a prescription, but she can easily have someone else go buy the pills for her. I have also heard that Egyptian doctors prescribe birth control pills easily for "clearing up acne" and "regulating periods".

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Cheekyferret
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Birth control methods are widely available in the major parts of the country but less prevalent in rural.

My part of the arguement is what about the poor women who have been told childbirth could kill them or women who fall pregant due to rape.

It won't be long before there is an Abortion Boat like this:

http://archive.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/06/14/abortion_boat/index.html

It will be filled with many women being carried out in to international waters where laws are different and they will be able to carry out abortions within the law.

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Once I've heard about an unmarried girl, poor,pregnant,from the south, who ran away to Cairo, trying to make a living there. Her pregnancy at that moment wasn't that much visable, so she managed to get a job as a cleaner in a house. The Mrs. of the house thought there was something strange about the girl, asked a bit further, and the girl admitted she was pregnant.
The people had to send her away, because they feared for a lot of troubles when the girl should get birth to a baby while living in their house. Anything could happen: Revengeous families from the south, unreal accusations concerning the pregnancy, and of course the scandal in their house...
So, no, I don't think attitudes have changed.
The only strange ting about such cases is that absolutely nobody offers help to such a girl.
She probably is forced to give birth to the baby somewhere out on the streets, she will be extremely vulnerable to bad willing men (and as I understood there are a lot of men willing to make abusement of such cases) and the child will have to face the same problems, when it's a girl.
It is my biggest objection against people who ALL declare their religion as very important.
That pushing away from women in need...nobody who will offer help, while it is obviously a woman in need...
Not only in pregnancies, also in traumatised women, who have had bad sexual expierences.
I think humanity should also be a part of practising any religion, while this is totally excluded, and is going into religious norms and values.
I've heard about a small number of such cases, and I never heard that somebody offered practical help.
Isn't that strange?

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weirdkitty
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quote:
Which raises an entirely different topic...where exactly would a girl go to get an abortion in Egypt?
When I found out I was pregnant in Cairo, getting the abortion pill wasn't going to be a problem. It was mentioned to the doctor, and he gave some info on it, etc, didn't seem hard to come by at all. (Thank god I knew from day one I didn't want an abortion, and didn't go through with it *phew*).
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Abortion-pill???? I didn't even know they existed...
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cairocks
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[Roll Eyes] ????? didn't even know men and women in Egypt can talk to each other, so no surprise there from Mrs Stupid.
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Dubai Girl
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The abortion pill has been around for about 10 years that i know of, i remember a girl I knew at Uni took it. As far as I'm aware you can only take it in the very early stages of pregnancy
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Mrs. Rejected... [Frown]
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Dubai Girl
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Cairocks you seem to be quite the antagonist....do you have a grudge against Amr? You seem to have posted a lot about him today. Not that I care, I just noticed is all.....
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stayingput
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quote:
Originally posted by Dubai Girl:
I was back in the British Embassy in Cairo this morning waiting to collect my notice of marriage.

Not to drag this too far off topic, but what's a "notice of marriage"?
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quote:
Originally posted by Dubai Girl:
The abortion pill has been around for about 10 years that i know of, i remember a girl I knew at Uni took it. As far as I'm aware you can only take it in the very early stages of pregnancy

Yeah, I looked it up. Untill 7 weeks, so only 3 weeks usable. Strange that I didn't hear about it. Doctors don't advice it here, to much risk on heavy bleedings. Women are not allowed to be alone, and they have to stay in the near of a telephone. So, thats a pretty big risk.
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Dubai Girl
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Well that was my other topic I posted the other day...It's just a piece of paper you get stamped at the embassy which means you are free to be married at the MOJ and also the Church in my case...actually on the form its called "statutory declaration"
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cairocks
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For someone who claims to enjoy sarcasm, ????? ought to learn how to use it effectively, just once. Last time I looked, she had ran from the forum, as her mostly ignorant, racist and moronic views were so mocked by most. Let's exclude a few idiots like 'Pillar'ied' - who changes names every time it is declared she is universally stupid or she makes yet another enemy.

The saddest thing about ????? is she doesn't even have a clue how out of touch most of her views are with reality.


quote:
Originally posted by ?????:
Mrs. Rejected... [Frown]


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*Dalia*
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quote:
Originally posted by ?????:
That's a male task. Ask around, informing by friends who are trustworthy.

That's what happens if the guy is not a jerk who just disappears. And ideally, he should also pay for it.

quote:
Originally posted by ?????:
Of course when something is supposed to be a secret, they have to be very carefull in this.

Recommendations for abortion clinics etc. are not exactly being kept a secret here.
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Amr, Misho, Pillar, Alchemist, me, starts to be a real list! And all that people seem to keep you pretty busy, at least, when they haven't ban identity number that much.
I have no idea who you are, but you seem to have an opinion about all of them. Go ahead, Mrs. Rejected, get angry untill your bloodpressure is rising that high that it will be fatal. One monster less.

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I would say that "Maria" is on the loose again!! [Big Grin] [Big Grin]
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Abortion for financial reasons is permissible, says Azhar Sheikh


By Yasmine Saleh
First Published: November 25, 2007


CAIRO: A mother of three, 35-year-old Maha (not her real name) was shocked when she found out she was three months pregnant. Poor and desperate, she knew that her only way out of this crisis was an abortion.

“I begged a relative of mine to help me have an abortion,” she told Daily News Egypt.

A few weeks later, her relative books her a room in one of Egypt’s top private hospitals, where she was falsely admitted for surgery to have her appendix removed, but actually had the abortion.

That was 10 years ago, and despite the fact that Maha’s financial situation has improved tremendously since her husband got a job in Dubai, she doesn’t regret the abortion and believes that if she were to go back in time, she would make the same decision.

Although abortion is illegal in Egypt according to the Penal Code section 260 — which prohibits it under any circumstances — the procedure is often undertaken in big hospitals illegally.

According to Sheikh Mahmoud Ashour, member of the Islamic Research Center, “abortion is not permissible according to Islam, except in emergency cases.”

Ashour told Daily News Egypt abortion is permitted if the pregnancy is a threat to the mother’s life, or if there is strong medical evidence indicating that the baby could be physically or mentally disabled.

When asked if dire financial circumstances are considered an emergency, Ashour said that it was, “as long as the family suffers economic burdens and will not be able to provide for the newborn.”

If the baby will make the family suffer in any way, he added, then having an abortion is acceptable as long as it is done during the first 120 days of pregnancy.

Last week, Daily News Egypt reported that MP Mohamed Khalil Kwaitah filed a motion to the PA requesting legalizing abortion for rape victims who are no more than four months pregnant.

Ashour agrees with Kwaitah’s request, emphasizing that rape is one of the top cases where exceptions to the general rule must be accommodated.

However Dr. Abdel Rahman Shahin, media spokesman at the Ministry of Health, told Daily News Egypt that the Ministry of Health was not aware of Kwaitah’s request.

“As far as I know abortion under any circumstances is banned by Egyptian law, but exceptions to the rule should be granted by religious scholars not by any other authority,” Shahin said.


http://64.34.254.246/article.aspx?ArticleID=10484


See also:

MP requests legalizing abortion for rape victims

By Yasmine Saleh
First Published: November 19, 2007


http://www.thedailynewsegypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=10381

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cloudberry
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I learned that they give birth control pills for free in places were vaccines for babies are given. They were handing out those and hubby said they're free. Is this true?
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weirdkitty
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quote:
Yeah, I looked it up. Untill 7 weeks, so only 3 weeks usable. Strange that I didn't hear about it. Doctors don't advice it here, to much risk on heavy bleedings. Women are not allowed to be alone, and they have to stay in the near of a telephone. So, thats a pretty big risk.
Yeah, I think in England you have to stay at the clinic, after all, it is making you have a miscarriage, so you have to pass the baby. I didn't speak directly to the Egyptian doctor, but I don't think there was any mention of me staying in a hospital, more that I would be given the pill, and then sent on my way! Argh.
But then, the doctor I went to was primitive. I would have only been three weeks pregnant and he gave me a scan. Any doc should know that he wouldn’t have seen anything, instead it just made me worry that nothing was there. Told me NOT to take folic acid!!!! Said I was in fine health- although didn’t check anything (and considering I’m overweight, it was a rather bad medical assumption). He was just a guy in an office, in an unfurnished building.

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Think about what should happen when such a bleeding was to big...you simply would bleed to death while lying in your bed!
Did the doctor give any reasons why he adviced to take NO folic aid?

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weirdkitty
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quote:
Did the doctor give any reasons why he adviced to take NO folic aid?
He said not to take any chemicals when I asked about any tablets I should be talking.
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of_gold
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Kitty, You must take folic acid. It is not a chemical it is a B vitamin and I understand that not having it can increase the odds of the baby having a clef palate.
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Desertgirl
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quote:
Originally posted by ?????:
Yeah, I looked it up. Untill 7 weeks, so only 3 weeks usable. Strange that I didn't hear about it. Doctors don't advice it here, too much risk on heavy bleedings. Women are not allowed to be alone, and they have to stay in the near of a telephone. So, thats a pretty big risk.

About abortion-pills... I think you can take them up till 12 weeks of pregnancy. Heavy bleedings?? It depends on the person. In Belgium you have specialised centre where you can go to. You can go home the same day.


Strange what I read about acid foil here... Lots of doctors advise it to even take it before you are actually pregnant. Here we have vitamins called Omnibionta. It has acid foil in it and is highly recommended to pregnant girls/ladies.

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weirdkitty
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quote:
Kitty, You must take folic acid. It is not a chemical it is a B vitamin and I understand that not having it can increase the odds of the baby having a clef palate.
Don't worry, as soon as I got back from Egypt I took it. I'm no longer on it now though, as its pointless after 12 weeks.

I thought the benefits of folic acid would have been known globally by doctors. Any one been pregnant in Egypt and the doctor did tell them to have it? Maybe I just saw a bad doctor lol.

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cloudberry
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quote:
Originally posted by weirdkitty:
quote:
Kitty, You must take folic acid. It is not a chemical it is a B vitamin and I understand that not having it can increase the odds of the baby having a clef palate.
Don't worry, as soon as I got back from Egypt I took it. I'm no longer on it now though, as its pointless after 12 weeks.

I thought the benefits of folic acid would have been known globally by doctors. Any one been pregnant in Egypt and the doctor did tell them to have it? Maybe I just saw a bad doctor lol.

I think it was just a bad doc! I can't remember the details anymore and one reason is also that in the beginning most doctors mainly talked in Arabic to hubby and only something to me in English (until we found a god doctor). BUT ALL of them did give prescription for vitamins (even in Luxor), and all these included folic acid.

You do not need to take extra folic acid pills IF you eat things that have it a lot. I'm quite particular about my eatings and especially so during pregnancy. BUT I can guess that most people (especially Egyptian) do not eat very healthy.

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Momma_Dukes
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quote:
Originally posted by Dubai Girl:
I was back in the British Embassy in Cairo this morning waiting to collect my notice of marriage. A Young Couple in their early twenties came in, he was scottish she was egyptian. At first I assumed she was Christian as her hair wasn't covered. she looked to be about 6 months pregnant.
They went to the counter together and said they wanted to get married and he needed to apply for a notice of marriage. The woman at the counter then said he needed to have converted to Islam, to which he confirmed he had after that they filled out their forms and left hand in hand.

My father in law who is Egyptian was with me and he was quite shocked that she was obviously pregnant and they were unmarried, to me coming from a western culture this is fairly normal and didn't faze me, although I know Egypt views this differently and is a very conservative community. It got me thinking as to whether attitudes here are changing. Obviously unmarried pregnancies do happen in Egypt, my soon to be husband who is 31 can remember a girl from his school getting pregnant, but it was very much hushed up and she was sent away as he remembers, a bit like they used to do to unmarried mothers in England up until the mid 70s. This is not the case at all any more and you are no longer looked upon any differently (in my opinion) if you are unmarried and have a child.

Do you think people here's attitudes are changing
?I would be interested to know your views on this?

thats so BS that they need him to convert to islam. like wtf is it their business what he believes in and shouldnt a person convert to islam because they want to instead of have too?

my god, egypt is retarded.

its a shame over there. there are many unmarried pregnant girls, especially the street ones who are like 12 who are forced to give birth in alleys and stuff.

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weirdkitty
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quote:
I think it was just a bad doc! I can't remember the details anymore and one reason is also that in the beginning most doctors mainly talked in Arabic to hubby and only something to me in English (until we found a god doctor). BUT ALL of them did give prescription for vitamins (even in Luxor), and all these included folic acid.
Argh yes, he done that too. I knew he spoke English, but he spent most of the time speaking in arabic to sam. I was getting so angry, it is my first pregnancy, I had no idea what to do or what to expect. In the end, I done my research in an internet cafe lol.
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tina m
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i was pregnant and unmarried at 17 and i wouldnt change the past for nothin.. my son is my most prized joy... and my twins ofcourse..
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Slewth
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Also, folic acid helps with preventing spinal bfida as well.
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Questionmarks
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quote:
Originally posted by desertgirl:
quote:
Originally posted by ?????:
Yeah, I looked it up. Untill 7 weeks, so only 3 weeks usable. Strange that I didn't hear about it. Doctors don't advice it here, too much risk on heavy bleedings. Women are not allowed to be alone, and they have to stay in the near of a telephone. So, thats a pretty big risk.

About abortion-pills... I think you can take them up till 12 weeks of pregnancy. Heavy bleedings?? It depends on the person. In Belgium you have specialised centre where you can go to. You can go home the same day.


Strange what I read about acid foil here... Lots of doctors advise it to even take it before you are actually pregnant. Here we have vitamins called Omnibionta. It has acid foil in it and is highly recommended to pregnant girls/ladies.

It makes it sound like going to the supermarket and buy coffee. In my believes, abortion, by pills or by treatment, is a very serious decision. Not like hopping in a centre, get a small treatment and go on with life like before.
It is taking away a life! Maybe its the catholic background... [Razz]

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Slewth
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Also the folic acid helps with brain development in the embryo in the first stages of development.
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cloudberry
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quote:
Originally posted by desertgirl:
Strange what I read about acid foil here... Lots of doctors advise it to even take it before you are actually pregnant.

This is true. If you are trying to get pregnant it's adviced to take folic acid.
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Cheekyferret
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Girl I know had an abortion in the UK last year and she took the abortion pills at home. No big deal nowadays. It is more an expense than an inconvenience.
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pablo_7777
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hi every body.
hi WK.

i think that i ahve translated every thing have been told by the doctor.

and i told u that the doctor said u have astable pregnancey no need for any chimicals also said dont ever have that junk food from mccdonalds or KFC also he said u look strong so no need to be worried .

didnt i said every thing or what?

that doctor was not bad doctor.
and that all what he has said.

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quote:
Originally posted by pablo_7777:
dont ever have that junk food from mccdonalds or KFC

You'd be surprised to hear what women munching down during pregnancy and they deliver perfectly healthy babies!! [Wink]

For example with my first son it had to be Chinese food for several months. I'd send hubby to get me spring rolls and fried noodles with vegetables all the time. [Big Grin]

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*Dalia*
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quote:
Originally posted by pablo_7777:

and i told u that the doctor said u have astable pregnancey no need for any chimicals

Folic acid is not a chemical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folate

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pablo_7777
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and i think all of u ultrasound tests u had claimd and ensured what the doctor said.

have anice day from egypt [Wink]

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*Dalia*
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quote:
Originally posted by pablo_7777:
and i think all of u ultrasound tests u had claimd and ensured what the doctor said.

WK is right, it is highly unusual to have an ultrasound during the third week of pregnancy. Usually the first one is done at about nine to twelve weeks.

So it sounds as if the doctor you took her to was not really that professional.

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Questionmarks
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Maybe he wanted to make some extra money. Foreign woman stands for extra money...
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Supercalafragalistic
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I had an ultrasound in sharm when iw as 7weeks pregs..... I also ate my own body weight of chocolate in the later part of my pregnancy and Ameria is fine and dandy... enjoyed eating Mo'men when i was in Cairo too.

I saw one good doctor in egypt, the others gave me pills that pregnant women can't have (thank god i checked the leaflet). One doctor said i didn't to have a nose operation... when i only had an ear injection! I never trusted the doctors when i was there, but that was just my experience.

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