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Author Topic: Edfu Text and Papyrus of Hunefer
rasol
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Anyone have information on these documents?

Supposedly the Papyrus of Hunefer is currently at the London Museum, and comments on the origins of the Kemetians:

"we came from the beginning of the Nile were God Hapi dwells, at the foothills of the Mountains of the Moon" [Great Lakes Region - central Africa]

Accurate translation?

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 20 January 2005).]


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Horemheb
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Is he tellin us that the Nile begins near the Moon? Now that has some real historical value.
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rasol
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No, the Horemheb isn't being sarcastic. He just doesn't know what Mountains of the Moon refers to. Sad isn't it?
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quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Anyone have information on these documents?

Supposedly the Papyrus of Hunefer is currently at the London Museum, and comments on the origins of the Kemetians:

"we came from the beginning of the Nile were God Hapi dwells, at the foothills of the Mountains of the Moon" [Great Lakes Region - central Africa]

Accurate translation?


Something definitely worth looking further into.


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Wally
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quote:

rasol writes:
Anyone have information on these documents?
Supposedly the Papyrus of Hunefer is currently at the London Museum, and comments on the origins of the Kemetians:
"we came from the beginning of the Nile were God Hapi dwells, at the foothills of the Mountains of the Moon" [Great Lakes Region - central Africa]
Accurate translation?

Are you talking about the Papyrus of Hunefer which is the same as that of Ani, or in other words the "Book of the Dead"?

In any case, it is consistent with every thing we know from the Mdu Nter. It may surprise a few, but Egyptology has always maintained the southern African origins of the Ancient Egyptians. (Which explains why a handful of latter-day racist mavericks concocted the 'Hamitic' myth)

Here is EW Budge's account of the origins of the Ancient Egyptian language, and consequently the Ancient Egyptians themselves:

quote:

It is impossible for me to believe that Egyptian is a Semitic language fundamentally. There are a very large number of words that are not Semitic and were never invented by a Semitic people. These words were invented by one of the oldest African people of the Nile valley of whose written language we have any remains. Their home lay far to the south, and all that we know of Predynastic Egypt suggests that it was in the neighborhood of the **Great Lakes.
EW Budge, Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Dover, 1920

It isn't just in the text of Hunefer, but in the vocabulary of the language when referring to these southern African regions as:
"Land of the beginning"
"Land of our beginnings"
"Land of the ancestors"
"Land of the founders"
"The Holy land"
etc., etc. --from the beginning to the end of Ancient Egyptian civilization.
...
**geographical location of the "Mountains of the Moon"

[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 20 January 2005).]


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Horemheb
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Wally, If you are interested in AE why are you always talking about race? Race or AE? Which is it?
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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
09 December 2004
It is human nature, quite simply, that whenever anyone does not want to examine critical evidence (in this case; the ethnicity of the Ancient Egyptians), it is out of fear that one's preconceived notions may have to be changed. They would much rather change the subject. You can do a case study of this phenomena on this site alone!


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Horemheb
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What a pile of crap Wally. WHY are you interested in the race of the ancient Egyptians? Be honest here.
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rasol
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quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
It isn't just in the text of Hunefer, but in the vocabulary of the language when referring to these southern African regions as:
"Land of the beginning"
"Land of our beginnings"
"Land of the ancestors"
"Land of the founders"
"The Holy land"
etc., etc. --from the beginning to the end of Ancient Egyptian civilization.
...
**geographical location of the "Mountains of the Moon"

I'm just wondering what specific passage is actually being translated: "we came from the beginning of the Nile were God Hapi dwells," etc.. Is that 'from' the Book of the Dead?


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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
I'm just wondering what specific passage is actually being translated: "we came from the beginning of the Nile were God Hapi dwells," etc.. Is that 'from' the Book of the Dead?

I'll look into it and let you know what I find...


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Horemheb
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You guys are really digging deep into the subject. You post a quote that could mean any number of things. Did the writer even know what the source of the Nile was? You don't know. Wha he being figerative or literal? You don't know. If you are going to do history do it right. Check with some of the religious studies people who work in the field.
I forgot, this is not about history anyway ...ita all about being black.

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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Anyone have information on these documents?

Supposedly the Papyrus of Hunefer is currently at the London Museum, and comments on the origins of the Kemetians:

"we came from the beginning of the Nile were God Hapi dwells, at the foothills of the Mountains of the Moon" [Great Lakes Region - central Africa]

Accurate translation?

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 20 January 2005).]



There is no such text as quoted. Nobody but one person has ever
claimed to have seen it and when called on it was unable to produce
it for others to view, hence being nonreplicable it has no scientific
value. When this anecdote first surfaced in 1986 the supposed
document was said to be in the library of
Syracuse University in
New York.

We must be exacting and critical of evidence demanding documentation
even from respected authorities not accepting anything just on their word.



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rasol
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

There is no such text as quoted. Nobody but one person has ever
claimed to have seen it and when called on it was unable to produce
it for others to view, hence being nonreplicable it has no scientific
value. When this anecdote first surfaced in 1986 the supposed
document was said to be in the library of
Syracuse University in
New York.

We must be exacting and critical of evidence demanding documentation
even from respected authorities not accepting anything just on their word.



Thanx!


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ausar
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The Edfu text is claimed to have been a real text about metal smiths coming from the south establishing a colony in Egypt. Some scholars have attested to this document being authenic;while others claim it was simply profaganda by Ptolemic era priests in Egypt over a land dispute around Aswan. I am not sure about the Papyrus of Hunefer,but I believe Dr. Ben quoted it.


alTakruri, what is your comment on Dr. Ben's quotation of the Papyrus of Hunefer in his book?


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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:

I am not sure about the Papyrus of Hunefer,but I believe Dr. Ben quoted it.


alTakruri, what is your comment on Dr. Ben's quotation of the Papyrus of Hunifer in his book?


I gave my opinion already.

Doc Ben has dozens of books which one and which page do you mean?
I think I remember this Mountains of the Moon "quote" from Black
Man of the Nile and his Family. Then again he uses it in a speech
before the Minority Ethnic Unit of the Greater London Council.

Has anyone but anyone ever properly cited the
quoted text under
question? The Papyrus of Hu-nefer (British Museum number 9901)
is written in hieroglyphic not hieratic. When researchers scour the
supposed source they can’t seem to find the questioned quote
which makes a collective historical statement concerning all Kmtyw
even though the scroll itself is an individualistic and very personal
afterlife religious text.

I used to rely on Doc Ben’s statement but now being older and
being able to apply critical analysis I cannot accept work that is
irreplicable no matter how honored its author may be.

If someone can supply the sheet and line number of a Papyrus
of Hunifer with the Mountains of the Moon quote I will gladly
revise my views. Until then I remain skeptical. My interest is in
history not ideaology.



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Wally
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I couldn't find anything either, but much of what we know of Ancient Egypt is generally from second hand evidence.

I think that the metal smiths which Ausar is referring to are the 'Mesnitu'(the blacksmiths) who were identified as the Shemsu Hor or "Horus's followers" - information on them are secondary, I have personally never seen the documents themselves.

The only conclusive document that is readily available is the Papyrus of Ani, which, despite the philosophical aspect, is predominantly a text on the Anu rule of Ancient Egypt.-- ie, Osiris, the Anu scribe...

Unlike my brother alTakruri, My primary interest is in ideology, the ideas which propels history.

[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 21 January 2005).]


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JOVE
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yes, thanks for the great post,
and welcome to иу

--------------------
Welcome to Yiwu,Yiwu Market

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Jacki Lopushonsky
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:


I am not sure about the Papyrus of Hunefer,but I believe Dr. Ben quoted it.


alTakruri, what is your comment on Dr. Ben's quotation of the Papyrus of Hunifer in his book?


I gave my opinion already.

Doc Ben has dozens of books which one and which page do you mean?
I think I remember this Mountains of the Moon "quote" from Black
Man of the Nile and his Family. Then again he uses it in a speech
before the Minority Ethnic Unit of the Greater London Council.

Has anyone but anyone ever properly cited the
quoted text under
question? The Papyrus of Hu-nefer (British Museum number 9901)
is written in hieroglyphic not hieratic. When researchers scour the
supposed source they can’t seem to find the questioned quote
which makes a collective historical statement concerning all Kmtyw
even though the scroll itself is an individualistic and very personal
afterlife religious text.

I used to rely on Doc Ben’s statement but now being older and
being able to apply critical analysis I cannot accept work that is
irreplicable no matter how honored its author may be.

If someone can supply the sheet and line number of a Papyrus
of Hunifer with the Mountains of the Moon quote I will gladly
revise my views. Until then I remain skeptical. My interest is in
history not ideaology.

The "Mountains of the Moon" phrase was originally by Diogenes and Budge's "Great Lakes" phrase were combined into one fabricated quote by this self-proclaimed Ethiopian Falasha/Puerto Rican who advocated for 'White' Genocide:

 -

The full quote is in this book, "Nile Valley Civilization and the Spread of African Culture" by Yosef Ben Jochannan

Mountains of the Moon - Another Afrocentric Lie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQx0-bLnemg

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Brada-Anansi
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So you took our criticism of Dr Ben and made a Video claiming you debunked him!! if only Eurocentrist would be critical of their heroes such as Mathilda and others and not swallow every thing hook line and sinker..we would be on the right tract,its really too bad I can't post on that vid..because of P7's cowardliness but I do hope one of our members would tell his viewers exactly where he/u got the information from.. so called Afrocentrist themselves who think critically and double check folks they held in high esteem.
 -  -
You guys still don't have an answer to this and a ahellava lot more..
http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2008_11_15_archive.html
We are self correcting you are not!!just dealing in propaganda.

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rahotep101
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The Hunefer papyrus is a regular 'Book of the Dead', its text should be the same as most other books of the dead, and as far as I know ir does not contain anything about southern origins or 'mountains of the moon'. I have seen the original papyrus at the British Museum, where it was recently part of the Book of the Dead exhibition. The illustrations show the deceased Hunefer as reddy-brown skinned caucasoid, and his wife and female relations as light skinned. The gods, interestingly, are also mostly shown lighter skinned than Hunefer himself (apart from Osiris who is dark green), which counts against the notion that Egyptians ascribed Ethiopian origins to their gods.
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-Just Call Me Jari-
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^^^^
Which Gods are we talking about??? Khunum, Amun, Horus??

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
The Hunefer papyrus is a regular 'Book of the Dead', its text should be the same as most other books of the dead, and as far as I know ir does not contain anything about southern origins or 'mountains of the moon'. I have seen the original papyrus at the British Museum, where it was recently part of the Book of the Dead exhibition.

Read above by Al-Takruri, it has been established that the Mountains of the Moon quote was probably made up or fabricated by Ben Yocchnan. Nothing more nothing less.


quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
The illustrations show the deceased Hunefer as reddy-brown skinned caucasoid, and his wife and female relations as light skinned.

Caucasiod is a debunked descriptor based on Eye-ball anthropology and 19th century racists. It is alos the Crutch of Euroclowns who need to claim African Civilizations that was created and founded by Africans Further South.

quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
The gods, interestingly, are also mostly shown lighter skinned than Hunefer himself (apart from Osiris who is dark green), which counts against the notion that Egyptians ascribed Ethiopian origins to their gods.

Let me guess, it is Not Symbolic when you have so called Light skin but its symbolic when you have this huh..

 -

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Calabooz '
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Rahotep101 [Eek!]
quote:
Originally posted by Rahotep101:
...but there is no obvious symbolic reason for the generally lighter depiction of most Egyptian females

Thanks to Sundjata for bringing this article to my attention:

quote:
A survey of a number of scholars, most writing in response to Black Athena, reveals a similarly problematic approach to the African nature of Egypt. John Baines, professor of Egyptology at Oxford, in his attack on Black Athena II in the New York Times, is similarly a victim of the confused approach seen in Kelley. For Baines, ancient Egypt 'was an African society of diverse ethnic origins'. (38) He further seems to believe that Egyptians' representations of themselves in paintings as reddish-brown (men), yellow (women) and of the people to the south as black is of importance in determining their actual physical characteristics--surely one of the more astounding statements made recently on the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians.
---Kamugisha (2003)

Full Text

Or if preferred, I downloaded the PDF Here

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Calabooz '
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quote:
Women being inexplicably lighter skinned than their husbands is something still to be seen among modern Egyptians, so go figure. (By contrast, it's not something to be seen in Somalia, as a rule.) I'm no dermatologist but I suspect this has something to do with the sun, and the men spending more time out under it.
The whole "outdoor" argument has been discussed time and time again here. Most recently here. As seen by the citation of Kamugisha, the ancient Egyptians representations of themselves as yellow and red cannot be take to literal. You taking one image doesn't change that those colors didn't necessarily depict actual skin tones, unless you can offer evidence to the contrary?

--------------------
L Writes:

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rahotep101
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The women in the Hunefer papyrus are not 'yellow' but rather pink. One of the deities, moreover, appears to have auburn hair- although that could be a head cloth, to be fair (in the top corner of the montage image posted previously). The Egyptians on the photo I just posted (including their slightly blond child) are evidently of the same ethnicity as the people represented in the ancient papyri. Their colour and phenotype match. (This is a family who make their living on the Nile in Cairo, incidentally).
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Calabooz '
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quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
The women in the Hunefer papyrus are not 'yellow' but rather pink. One of the deities, moreover, appears to have auburn hair- although that could be a head cloth, to be fair (in the top corner of the montage image posted previously). The Egyptians on the photo I just posted (including their slightly blond child) are evidently of the same ethnicity as the people represented in the ancient papyri. Their colour and phenotype match. (This is a family who make their living on the Nile in Cairo, incidentally).

So, after your "yellow" argument has been done away with, you claim they were pink? They don't look "pink" LOL. Did you read the thread I hyperlinked? I think it would serve you better to post there, instead of this old thread.

Stop reiterating your old claims, you have never offered any evidence to support them.

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rahotep101
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Evidence? I put it to you that this colour here is pink:

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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I'm just pointing out something obvious to anyone who isn't colour-blind. Goddesses were sometimes yellow, Egyptian females, however, were often light natural flesh tone. This is indicated in the image from Nefertari's tomb, where she is painted next to goddesses...


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Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The queen is even given blishing cheeks and red lips, there is nothing 'yellow' about her, it seems to me.

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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
but there is no obvious symbolic reason for the generally lighter depiction of most Egyptian females.

I find it funny how you Eurocentrics love to talk about "Lighter" Females in A. Egyptian are as if this is even the Norm. If you examine majority of the Very Few Selected Papyrus art shown to the world alot of times the Females are not painted and thus left the color of the Papyru, However if you examine Tomb art it is another story...Also Funny is how the Tomb art rather than Papyrus Art is more reflective of Reality.

Here is a Good example, not notice the female is painted a Dark Brown but her Face is left unpainted which appears the same as the ususal images favored by Eurocentrics.

 -

BTW if the images of a few selected Papyrus art is all you have then its laughable at best.

Various Egyptian Women


quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
And if the Egyptians considered the gods to be Ethiopians, as some claim, then they would surely have erred on the dark side rather than making even the male gods lighter in colour than the Egyptian mortal man.

Once again what Gods are we talking about?? Osiris was depicted Darker, Anubis, Amun a God Linked to Gebel Barkel, Khanum the God of Elaphantine.

Khanum

 -

Again Im not understanding this cookie cotter, The Gods should look a certain way. LOL, How Ubsurd, In One Breath Ra-hotep will talking about some supposed Auburn Hair and light skin on the Gods YET IN THE SAME BREATH Claim the Black Skin on some of the Egyptian art is "Symbolic", What a double standard..


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-Just Call Me Jari-
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How Laughable. Why is it you Eurocentrics are always contained to one or two faded images and a few Papyrus Images..

More Egyptian Females

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quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
Egyptian females, however, were often light natural flesh tone.


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Calabooz '
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quote:
Evidence? I put it to you that this colour here is pink
I was asking for evidence that modern Egyptians are reflective of ancient Egyptians, a claim you fail to substantiate. Go here:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004409

quote:
Egyptian females, however, were often light natural flesh tone
And the characteristic light skin of Egyptian women is not supposed to be reflective of their actual skin tone. Nefertari image I'll say may be more reflective of her actual skin tone, which to me looks like a brownish color.

--------------------
L Writes:

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Comparing Ra-hotep's Photoshopped and Faded Images to authentic versions..


quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:

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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The queen is even given blishing cheeks and red lips, there is nothing 'yellow' about her, it seems to me.

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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Nefertari..

 -  -  -

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Calabooz '
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In the mean time, I'm waiting for Rahotep101 to respond to the challenge given to him on the other thread I made; failure to do so will establish him as a troll, meaning there is no reason to respond to him

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004409

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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^^^^^^
Rahotep has already taken a beating on his first responses. Have to give it to him at least he has the balls to come here and debate unlike Phonecian7's other Cheerleaders..LOL

Rahotep can't hide behind Phonecian7's distortions here!!

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rahotep101
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The first of those three darker images of Nefertari is a modern pastiche. The second is a minor image fromt the tomb, tucked in a corner and above eye level where it would hardly be seen. Does it trump the more prominent images? I think not. The artist evidently couldn't be bothered to mix the right tone to match the main images. Interestingly with said image, she is still not black, i.e. she is not dark brown, she is dark pink.


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The third I am unfamiliar with and can't comment.

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Calabooz '
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quote:
Interestingly with the second image where the queen is playing senet, she is still not black, i.e. she is not dark brown, she is dark pink.
You've got to be joking, are you joking? I knew you were naive, but come on.

I'm waiting:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004409

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L Writes:

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rahotep101
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Hold your horses! Here is the fake against the image it's based on, by the way.
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Calabooz '
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You said the following image looked what you deem "dark pink"

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Not sure why you think that she looks "pink" when she is obviously dark skinned. You admit that she has dark skin, right? Dark skinned in Africa = black person.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Yes, Notice Ra-hotep prefers the Faded depixalated image over a clearer and larger one...

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rahotep101
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The other image is still decidedly on the pink side, as opposed to brown. Far be it from me to use photoshop for anything beyond value checking.

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I must say it's a bit of a rich to nit picking about that when I've seen Afrocentrists showing this version...

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rahotep101
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@JustCallMeJari I was talking specifically about the Papyrus of Hunefer when I said most of the the gods were represented as light skinned, lighter than Hunefer himself, and this is fairly undeniable.

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By the way the images of the pale skinned Nefertari standing next to darker skinned gods in her tomb also gives the lie to the accusation that the images I showed were faded. I won't dignify the claim that they are photoshopped with an answer, suffice to say that if they were I'm sure this would be easily exposed (as easily as I have exposed Afrocentrist fakery), so what would be the point?

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Obviously there were many dark skinned Egyptian, male and female, especially in the south, but not I think darker than the present population, who are a mixed bunch. As I've said before and will again, if you're searching for the faces of ancient Egyptians, look at the living Copts. I don't believe in gods of any colour anyway, but if there are gods I'm sure they're as indifferent as they are invisible. Colour is not a property of deities.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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This is a strawman Fallacy, as no one here is using that Image, and the very image you use is Distorted and Smaller compared to ours or they are Faded versions.

Besides we have plenty of egyptian Women depicted WAY, WAY darker than Nefertari. How come Eurocentric like you Run and Scurry from these Images of Egyptians.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ericaschouten/4104889481/sizes/l/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/_lc/5511166729/sizes/l/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68581665@N00/1466610948/sizes/z/in/photostream/

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quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
The other image is still decidedly on the pink side, as opposed to brown. Far be it from me to use photoshop for anything beyond value checking.

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I must say it's a bit of a rich to nit picking about that when I've seen Afrocentrists showing this version...

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Calabooz '
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quote:
I must say it's a bit of a rich to nit picking about that when I've seen Afrocentrists showing this version...
Did you see us post that image? No, you didn't. That is what we call a Strawman argument


Seriously, dark-skinned anything in Africa equates to what we know as "black people". Ironically, I Googled the term Dark pink skinned people and the dark ones are black

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=557&q=Dark+pink+skinned+people&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

LMAO [Big Grin]

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L Writes:

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
@JustCallMeJari I was talking specifically about the Papyrus of Hunefer when I said most of the the gods were represented as light skinned, lighter than Hunefer himself, and this is fairly undeniable.

I have already addressed the Papyrus of Hunefer already as most of the Papyrus Art was left unpainted or the paint is faded. Look at the Image I used above.


quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
By the way the images of the pale skinned Nefertari standing next to darker skinned gods in her tomb also gives the lie to the accusation that the images I showed were faded.

Even the Image you are using has Faded considerably. You are in Denial if you believe those Images depict reality and are Not Faded..


quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
I won't dignify the claim that they are photoshopped with an answer, suffice to say that if they were I'm sure this would be easily exposed (as easily as I have exposed Afrocentrist fakery), so what would be the point?

It does'nt matter if you dignify it or not.

Here is a clearly Photoshopped Image...Obviously the Color and Saturation has been changed to make the image apprear more Yellow.

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As to why you keep bringing up "Afrocentics P.S Images" is baffling, as

1) Im am not an Afrocentrist.

2) I have not posted a Photoshopped Afrocentric Image.

quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
Obviously there were many dark skinned Egyptian, male and female, especially in the south, but not I think darker than the present population, who are a mixed bunch. As I've said before and will again, if you're searching for the faces of ancient Egyptians, look at the living Copts. I don't believe in gods of any colour anyway, but if there are gods I'm sure they're as indifferent as they are invisible. Colour is not a property of deities.

How Merciful of you..LOL.

Like a Typical Racist you claim the Native Population has "Darkened" compared to the A. Egyptians but Bitch and Whine about the Population Darkening. Despite the Hundrends of Years of Asiatics, so called Euroasians begining with the Persians, Greeks, Arabs, Turks, French etc. in Egypt somehow these populations mysteriously disappeared without a trace and managed to Darkern the Egyptians.

How Absurd.

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Chopper City
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What do y'all think of this?
http://www.bardo.org/ani/

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Are we going somewhere or are you going to keep annoying me with your boring lectures professor-warrior??

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rahotep101
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quote:
Originally posted by L':
quote:
I must say it's a bit of a rich to nit picking about that when I've seen Afrocentrists showing this version...
Did you see us post that image? No, you didn't. That is what we call a Strawman argument


Seriously, dark-skinned anything in Africa equates to what we know as "black people". Ironically, I Googled the term Dark pink skinned people and the dark ones are black

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=557&q=Dark+pink+skinned+people&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

LMAO [Big Grin]

Fancy that! Especially as the results coming up are mostly for 'dark skinned people' and the word pink must be somewhere else on the given websites.

Dark skinned people in Africa are not necessarily 'black'. Are the descendants of the Indians who moved to South Africa under the British Empire blacks? Is Gandhi's granddaugher, Ela Ghandi, a black African? Going back much further, it is a complete myth that there is one African race, any more than there is one Asian one.

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rahotep101
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quote:
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
[I have already addressed the Papyrus of Hunefer already as most of the Papyrus Art was left unpainted or the paint is faded. Look at the Image I used above.

I have seen the original papyrus, remember, and I can assure you it is fully painted, and is in excellent condition. If all the figurs were originally a dark colour, they would all be a pale colour now, and this is the case neiter with the papyrus (or others like it) or with Nefertari's tomb. Why is Nefertari's hand not the same colour as Horus'? Do try to be logical.

Obviously you can find images of women darker than Nefertari as she is painted in her tomb, and you can find men painted lighter shades. The simple reason for this is that there were such people in ancient Egypt.

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Calabooz '
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quote:
Fancy that! Especially as the results coming up are mostly for 'dark skinned people' and the word pink must be somewhere else on the given websites.
Definition of black = dark skinned. I really have no idea what the hell a dark skinned pink person is, that is pretty much something you link to hear, there really isn't such an actual color. I just posted that because that is what came up- dark skinned people.

quote:
Dark skinned people in Africa are not necessarily 'black'. Are the descendants of the Indians who moved to South Africa under the British Empire blacks? Is Gandhi's granddaugher, Ela Ghandi, a black African? Going back much further, it is a complete myth that there is one African race, any more than there is one Asian one.
Dark skinned people of African descent i.e., biologically African. Not recent immigrants.

You asking me if an Indian is an African should clue people in as to how you don't know what the F*ck you're talking about.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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I have no problem with the Papyrus art, nor do I have a problem saying such people were present in Egypt.

What I have a problem is with people using a select few Images to prove Egypt was "Caucasiod" while Ignoring other Images including other Papyrus art.

What I have a problem with is people putting up the Alexandrian and Carian Egyptians as the Decendants of the Ancients, and lableling the Darker Egyptians as the Result of the 25th dynasty and Slavery.

Thats what I have a problem with.


quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
quote:
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
[I have already addressed the Papyrus of Hunefer already as most of the Papyrus Art was left unpainted or the paint is faded. Look at the Image I used above.

I have seen the original papyrus, remember, and I can assure you it is fully painted, and is in excellent condition. If all the figurs were originally a dark colour, they would all be a pale colour now, and this is the case neiter with the papyrus (or others like it) or with Nefertari's tomb. Why is Nefertari's hand not the same colour as Horus'? Do try to be logical.

Obviously you can find images of women darker than Nefertari as she is painted in her tomb, and you can find men painted lighter shades. The simple reason for this is that there were such people in ancient Egypt.


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rahotep101
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I have the same problem with people who use selectivism to show a distorted picture the other way. I think the modern Alexandrians and Cairenes are also likely to have much Ancient Egyptian blood, for the given reason that foreigners- like Jews, Greeks and Armenians- tended to stick to their own communities (and the last of these were mostly kicked out in the 1950s). The north, and especially the Delta, always had a large Egyptian population. There are more than enough dynastic images of light skinned, 'Caucasoid' Egyptians going back to the Old Kindom to invalidate the claim that modern Egyptians with this look must descend from Greeks or Persians or any other 'invaders'. Equally there are enough dark ancient images to invalidate the claim that all darker-skinned modern Egyptians must descend from recent black migrations, or from the Arab slave trade, but that's no reason to ignore the fact that there has been considerable black African migration into Egypt. In short, as I believe Keita said, the diveristy present in modern Egypt, in terms of craniofacial structire, skin tone etc. is much the same as it was in the past.
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-Just Call Me Jari-
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The idea that Egypt was a Pure Black Civilization with no Light Skinned people is about as absurd as Greece being Pure white with no Dark Skinned people.

The idea that the Alexandrian and Cairene Egyptians have more A. Egyptian blood as opposed to the south is not grounded in fact. Like I said these so called Slaves were settled in the Delta Regions also the Southern Egyptians tend to keep to themselves and are closer to the old practices than Northern Egyptians.

I mean the Mind boggles at the Double Standard, So called "Black African" Migration should not be ignored but the Massive amounts of Foreign populations in Lower Egypt and the Delta from Euroasian Invaders had no impact on the populations there, how absurd.

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