posted
^Indeed, 'Semitic' is a language group or affilitiation so it should not be taken as a reference to phenotype.
On the other hand it should be made clear that Syria has recieved influxes of immigrants even 'white' ones from Mitanni, peoples from the Caucasus, Europeans, etc.
This is why many peoples especially from northern Syria might even have light hair and eyes.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
It seems that Israel is justifying the "George Bush" candidacy based on "Indo-European" language family. Syrians are of course, not even Indo-European speakers.
-------------------- Truth - a liar penetrating device! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Not exactly. I am just saying that one "could" say that many Syrians are "white" people. I am not saying I agree with this, I am just stating my experience with dealing with some people from that culture. Remember that I said that Black people have been(and still are) a part of Syrian culture........
Hence, all I am saying is that it isn't necessarily inaccurate to portray George Bush as a representative of an ancient "Syriac" man, understand? I am open to the possibility of its accuracy(or inaccuracy). Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
Not exactly. I am just saying that one "could" say that many Syrians are "white" people. I am not saying I agree with this, I am just stating my experience with dealing with some people from that culture. Remember that I said that Black people have been(and still are) a part of Syrian culture........
Hence, all I am saying is that it isn't necessarily inaccurate to portray George Bush as a representative of an ancient "Syriac" man, understand? I am open to the possibility of its accuracy(or inaccuracy). Salaam
Well and good for this 'reassessment' or 'modification', which nonetheless has no bearings on my post, which assessed this 'original' post of yours:
Isreal wrote:
A friend of mine years back was Syrian. I couldn't help but think that if this dude wasn't Arab that he would be considered the same as any other white American...........
He claimed to be a descendent of Muhammad. Yet, one day he tried to claim he was white, and I told him that he wasn't white, that he was Semitic...........
I wouldn't say he was white, but in the Arabian context, he definitely would be. But I have another Arab friend who is almost the same(almost white looking) like my Syrian friend. But her father is a brown-colored Palestianian...........
What am I trying to say???...........Well, according to Diop, in Ramessess III depiction of the various races, one of them was Indo-European.
**If so**, then Bush would qualify to represent that light-skinned person, know what I mean?
If that artistic depiction was Syrian, well, there probably are some people of Indo-European descent in Syria(just like in India).
Hence, I am not against the equivalency of George Bush in comparison to the Indo-European above, even if it is Syrian......
BTW, there were, and are Syrians who are Black, just as the original populations of India are Black...........feel me? Salaam
You were indeed using "Indo-European" affiliation as a justification point. The Ancient Egyptians made no reference to "Indo-European" in their art, and so, this would be your personal assessment outside of independent historical verification.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Modern Syrians are indeed of varyng complexions but the ancient Syrians were classed among the non-white peoples by Greco-Latin writers, so much so that they saw it necessary to note the existance of Leuko-Syrians.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Diop was wrong. The people in BOG GTH vig. 30 he labels as Indo-European were Tamazight Imazighen, an African people who did form alliances with Aegeans many of whom no doubt were Indo-European. They are quite distinctively portrayed in AE art such that they could never be mistaken as eastern Libyans.
posted
^Correct, I should also make clear the mistake that I myself have fallen into and it is that the picture of Marc Washingtons' George Bush comparison was with an Assyrian which is different from modern day Syrian. The ancient Assyrians were a people that lived in the region of now northern Iraq and part of northeast Syria. Modern Syrians are not all necessarily descended from Assyrians.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Modern Syrians are indeed of varyng complexions but the ancient Syrians were classed among the non-white peoples by Greco-Latin writers, so much so that they saw it necessary to note the existance of Leuko-Syrians
Is there any possible way you could provide original quotes or Greek references to non-white Syrians and leuco-Syrians? I believe one reference is often made to Herodotus but I never seen a direct quote from this text?
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: Leucosyri, to distinguish them from the people from beyond Taurus, which bear also the name of Syrians, but who, compared to the cistauric populations, are to have the dye browned by the heat of the sun, while those do not have it, difference which gave place to the denomination of Leucosyri.
Strabo Geography 12:3:9
quote: ... the populations of the one and other Cappadoce, Cappadoce Taurique and Cappadoce Pontique, even nowadays, are often called Leucosyri or Syrian white, by opposition apparently to other Syrians known as Melanosyri or Black Syrians, who can be only the Syrians established across Taurus, and, when I say Taurus, I give to this name his greater extension, I prolong the chain until Amanus.[Antioch]."
Strabo Geography 16:1:2
quote: The Cha'ab Arabs, the present possessors of the more southern parts of Babylonia, are nearly black; and the "black Syrians," of whom Strabo speaks, seem intended to represent the Babylonians.
George Rawlinson The Seven Great Monarchies Of The Ancient Eastern World, Vol 4
quote: Sayce has identified the Hittites with the "White Syrians" of Strabo as contrasted with "the Black Syrians or Semitic Aramaeans, east of the Amanus"
Henry George Tomkins Remarks on Mr. Flinders Petrie's Collection of Ethnographic Types from the Monuments of Egypt The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 18.
quote: LEUCOSYRI, the ancient name of the Syrians inhabiting Cappadocia, by which they were distinguished from the more southern Syrians, who were of a darker complexion. (Herod. i.72, vii.72; Strabo, xvi. p.737; Pliny, H.N. vi.3; Eustath. ad Dionys. 772,970.)
A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, Volume II, Pages 171-172
quote: At the time of the appearance of the Greeks, the land between the rivers Halys and Iris belonged to the Leucosyrians, who were also called Cappadocians.
Lâtife Summerer University of Munich, Germany
quote: ... the term "Leucosyrian" (White-syrian) was not exclusive of Pontus, and so we could think that this word was used by the Greeks to name different autochtonous peoples of Anatolia. Furthermore, our sources do not make clear if those Leucosyrians can be identified with those peoples who are called Cappadocians in a general sense: in fact, Strabo describes the Cappadocians of Pontus as descendants from former Scythian migrations. Solinus, probably quoting Plinius, tells that the Eastern part of Cappadocia (I think that he is alluding to Pontic Cappadocia) is situated in Scythia. Strabo said also that the wall of Zela was built to defend the place from the Scythian invaders. And finally, in a general sense, we must regard that the Euxinus was consered as an Scythian sea.
Luis Ballesteros-Pastor (Universidad de Sevilla)
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
alTakruri, thanks alot for this information.
I am guessing the reference that Rawlinson made to southern Bagdad is southern Iraq? What is interesting is I have read quotes by 19th century travelers saying that the Harb tribe in Iraq is near black in color.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
^Indeed, I'm curious to know whether these black Iraqis are recent descendants of Africans or if they are direct descendants of indigenous black Asiatics related to if not descended from Elamites.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The "Greco" Melanosyri would predominantly be indigenous far NE Africans/"SW Asians."
Rawlinsons Cha'ab Arabs may be the same as the so-called Marsh Arabs. If so, they aren't particularly dark. The average Kuwaiti has a browner truly copper colour. (Cha'ab seems to be a confederation name and as such could be composed of any number of different types of Arabs. The Cha'ab confederacy territory lies from Fao to Basra astride the Shatt al Arab.) These too are a far NE African people of the J NRY variety. But note that enslaved Africans often enough sought refuge in the Iraqi marshlands.
I doubt either Melanosyri, Cha'ab, or Harb to be of primary Elamite descent. Southern Iraqis should maybe have such elements in some minute quantity within them. I think Elymais Iran is a far more likely candidate for any Elamite remnants. Then again, also perhaps to its east, like Fars, Kerman, and Makran or Baluchistan.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
^I'm somewhat confused by your answer Takruri.
You say "far" Northeast African/Southwest Asian. So which is it? You also say Northeast Africans of the J NRY variety. But isn't J indigenous to Southwest Asia?
Also you maybe right about Elamite remnants in Iran, since I've seen photos of women in the Baluchistan region who are black but you can only tell from their eyelids as they wear niqab with a mask over their eye opening.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
By definitions going back to Greco-Latin authors it's SW Asia.
By geology and certain Afrikan minded authors it's far NE Africa or the African extension or etc.
Me, I'm not into giving away any pieces of real estate from the original African tectonic plate to any other continent, since the Rift Valley in time will sever a good chunk of the rest of north eastern Africa from the continental base. Hence, for me, the entire expanse of the Rift Valley all the way from Mozambique to Syria is was and will always be a part of Africa.
So naturally if "SW Asia" (i.e., the Arabian tectonic plate, which isn't physically attached to Asia in any way shape or form) is actually far NE Africa then any haplotypes traceable in origin to there are African originating haplotypes.
Truly radical, as far as geo-politics goes, but true nonetheless and even Wells admits that "SW Asia" was African in the epoch of the OoA expansions leading to the peopling of "Indo-asia" and supra Taurean Eurasia.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^I'm somewhat confused by your answer Takruri.
You say "far" Northeast African/Southwest Asian. So which is it? You also say Northeast Africans of the J NRY variety. But isn't J indigenous to Southwest Asia?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^Very persuasive argument for far NE Africa al Tuk
I vote for far NE Africa, though might still use tge term south-west Asia.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
LOL I get what you mean now Takruri! Radical indeed, though not at all unjustified.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I wonder why the assumptions associated with Leuk Aethiopes are never put forward to explain Leuk Syrians as regards their complexion, cultural ethnicity, and race?
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
LOL I get what you mean now Takruri! Radical indeed, though not at all unjustified.
Printer-friendly view of this topic