posted
I am speaking of the pre-dyanstic Egyptians and when the Sahara was not as dry as it is today. We find broad type Africans amongst the skeletal remains. In places like Egypt there are probably some overlap in terms of Afro-asiatic languages and Nilo-Saharan. Take the Hausa for instance they speak Afro-Asiatic but are generally broad Africans as opposed to narrow Africans like people from the Horn.
The Sahara and Nile Valley are basically zone of interaction for many different types of Africans. People need to consider this when analyzing ancient Egypt.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
pre-dynastic era could have been some thousands years with all kind of people interating in that region, and the dynastic era was also a very long time, so saying they were predominatly this or that just doesn't make sense, considering most of the ethnic groups of today were not even existent at that time as they are today, people migrate, meet, interact, form groups, disperse meet other groups, interact again and form further groups(tribes, ethnicity, clans etc.). So to say they were from the horn predominetly, sounds quite biased and simplistic imo.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
The Horn of AFrica is so diverse that the Broad type is all over from ERitrea Sudan Somalia not all horn of africans are straight noses i can show u millions without.
The same reason why u cant say all Saeedi's have broad noses is the same reason why u cant say all horn of africans have straight noses.
My Point is that the people of the horn do not all have straight noses and not all saeedi's have broad noses.
Broad nose does not make u less african and straight nose is not from Europe but indigenous to africa. I hope u all know that alot of African-Americans are mixed.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: pre-dynastic era could have been some thousands years with all kind of people interating in that region, and the dynastic era was also a very long time, so saying they were predominatly this or that just doesn't make sense, considering most of the ethnic groups of today were not even existent at that time as they are today, people migrate, meet, interact, form groups, disperse meet other groups, interact again and form further groups(tribes, ethnicity, clans etc.). So to say they were from the horn predominetly, sounds quite biased and simplistic imo.
That is true, but you have to remember that there was no globalisation in the past which is so prevalent today!
Ofcourse there was intermingling between different groups of the past. But the fact remains from Egyptians depicting themselves that they were a unique African group, like there are many African groups today.
I have some questions for Ausur.
Did the Bantu Expansion reach Egypt?
Why did the Egyptians depict themselves as being different to the nubians (ie Nilo saharans)?
Was not most of north east Africa inhabited by Cushetic type people, as southern part of Africa was inhabited by Khoisan types in the past?
What origin is proposed for the Nilotic or Nilo saharan speaking people?
(Ps. all this is to learn the truth, and not to be a clown, thats for the trigger happy troll spotters in here!!! )
Posts: 265 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Even many of the Sa3eedi people have some mixture. Ultimately, it depends what village and who settled there.
Remeber Sa3eed is a large place and most Sa3eedi live in places like Minya,Asyut and other parts of Middle Egypt. You have ''Almost Saeed'' and ''Deep Saeed'' which is Southern Upper Egypt. To most Cairene this is all the same but not to people in Saeed itself.
On average they have broader features than Somalis,Beja and people from the Horn of Africa. Also they tend to have more tightly curled hair.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
1. The Bantu expansion never was near Egypt and from most accounts I read it was mostly from southern Cameroon into Central Africa. Bantu people are not the only ones with broad phenotypes.
2. People like Nilo-Saharans,Shilluk and others are just as indigenous to North eastern Africa as are Somalis,Beja or any other group. The Nuba people of the Nuba mountains also inhabit northeastern Africa.
3. I think on the apperance of the ancient Egyptians its better to survey the various tombs depictions instead of the Book of Gates pictures. Uniformally it would appear the Egyptian males were reddish brown while females were yellowish but I think this does not reflect the phenotype of every Egyptian and variations existed. Also if we judge pictures of Nubians they are diverse themselves and sometimes in the case of a tribute scene in Rameses III tomb are shown in the exact reddish-brown as an Egyptian.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Ausar is it safe to say that Saharans Egyptians Nubians WEst africans South AFricans originated from the Horn of Africa True or False or did all africans Originate from the Sahara.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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the furthest north bantu expansion reached in East Africa was Kenya, and maybe also southern somali, but i think most of the bantus in southern somalia were brought there by persian settlers and arab slave traders such as the omanis from places like Mozambique, Tanzania and Zambia. Btw P.O.P did you know "Moqdishu" is a persian name, it means "the seat of the shah" Maq-da-shah? I recently learned this, LOL.
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quote:Originally posted by Prince_of_punt: [Obelisk_18:], Why you calling Djehuti babe?
Djehuti are you female?
Because if you are I was under the impression you were male.
Either that or Obelisk is female.
No I am not female, but male and Obelisk KNOWS that!
Apparently Obelisk is male also, as for why he calls me and other guys on this forum 'babe', I don't know. I thought the guy is gay, but he says he's not and is into females(?).
Moving back to the topic...
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Both Ausar and Yonis are correct in what they say. The populations of the Nile Valley going back to predynastic times was diverse. You cannot say one 'phenotype' was more predominant than another. Both broad features and narrow features were just as prevalent as the other.
There were more migrations from the Sahara than there were from the Horn since the Sahara is right next to Egypt, actually Egypt is part of the Sahara. Even then, the peoples of both the Sahara region and the Horn region are diverse themselves with peoples of various phenotypes.
Egyptian
Ethiopian
Also, as Ausar said you cannot associate language with phenotype.
Afrasian speaker
Niger-Congo speaker
^^Both the Hausa and Wodaabe above have lived in the Sahara for millennia.
Also, there was no seperation between the Horn and the Sahara either, as the evidence for migrations from the Horn to the Sahara.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: I hope u all know that alot of African-Americans are mixed.
Evergreen Writes:
You are correct. To add on, I would say that most people around the globe are "mixed" depending on how one defines the term "mixed". Rather than looking for absolutes we should seek to understand the gradients that compose human biological diversity.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Prince_of_punt: [QUOTE]That is true, but you have to remember that there was no globalisation in the past which is so prevalent today!
Evergreen Writes:
P of P, the concept that Asians, Africans and New World people lacked agency prior to European global hegemony is suspect.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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the furthest north bantu expansion reached in East Africa was Kenya, and maybe also southern somali, but i think most of the bantus in southern somalia were brought there by persian settlers and arab slave traders such as the omanis from places like Mozambique, Tanzania and Zambia. Btw P.O.P did you know "Moqdishu" is a persian name, it means "the seat of the shah" Maq-da-shah? I recently learned this, LOL.
^I did not know that (about Moqdishu).
But as for the Bantu expansions, exactly what was the limit to their expansion?
Today, The furtherst Bantu presence north is southern Somalia, southern Ethiopia, Southern Sudan etc. And limited in Central Africa by the Ubangi river and of course there are still Bantu languages left in the Cameroon border where they originated.
What impeded further expansion? A similar question could be said about Afrasian which expanded into Asia only until Mespotamia but impeded by the Zagros mountains of Iran, the Caucasus and Turkey.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Are you sure she's Egyptian? i've never seen any Egyptian that looks like her, in any case her type must be very rare, i doubt she represents any significant group in that area.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:But as for the Bantu expansions, exactly what was the limit to their expansion?
What more limit did they need, they colonized a great chunk of africa, further north i think they met fierce nomads in places like the savannah of kenya, which they couldn't compete with, as they did against the poor pygmies in central africa, and khoisan in the namibia/south africa region.
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Are you sure she's Egyptian? i've never seen any Egyptian that looks like her,
It is in the details; clothes, settings et al. are things one should never overlook. BTW, have you ever been to Egypt? Your comment suggests that you haven't. You can always ask folks like Ausar, and even Pax, he dedicated a thread to his visit in the region, and was kind enough to share his experiences there.
quote:Yonis:
in any case her type must be very rare, i doubt she represents any significant group in that area.
What are you basing this on? It can't be from being in Egypt, as we can tell from the comment above; genetic, historic, or cultural evidence?
or is this something that can fit within...
quote:rasol:
1) Egypt is reassigned to the 'middle east'. 2) Africans [Blacks] are re-assigned to Nubia. 3) Anything "Nubian" of historical value is then re-assigned to Egypt [the middle east].
quote:Originally posted by Prince_of_punt: [QUOTE]That is true, but you have to remember that there was no globalisation in the past which is so prevalent today!
Evergreen Writes:
P of P, the concept that Asians, Africans and New World people lacked agency prior to European global hegemony is suspect.
Well that depends entirely on how you see globalisation and the modern world. As you and I are both aware that everyone has played a role in bringing about the modern world.
Technological advancements is the main reason: why people are able to travel to any parts of the world in short amounts of time, learn languages, interact with other cultures, and live next to other cultures in a mixed "ethnic diverse" society.
Was all of this commonplace in the past?
Posts: 265 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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[QUOTE]That is true, but you have to remember that there was no globalisation in the past which is so prevalent today!
Evergreen Writes:
P of P, the concept that Asians, Africans and New World people lacked agency prior to European global hegemony is suspect.
Well that depends entirely on how you see globalisation and the modern world. As you and I are both aware that everyone has played a role in bringing about the modern world.
Technological advancements is the main reason: why people are able to travel to any parts of the world in short amounts of time, learn languages, interact with other cultures, and live next to other cultures in a mixed "ethnic diverse" society.
Was all of this commonplace in the past?
I'm not sure how this addresses what you are responding to; of course, human migrations was a common place in the past. How do you think they came to populate the regions that they now do, prior to the coming about of modern day modes of transportation of aircraft, automobiles, motor-driven ships, et al.?
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quote:Supercar: BTW, have you ever been to Egypt? Your comment suggests that you haven't
I've been in Egypt twice, My aunt has lived in cairo since before I was even born, the last time I was there I was only 11 years old, but still that doesn't make me less knowlegable of how modern Egyptians look like, and i can tell you the woman above is very rare in the Egyptian population, there is no way around that.
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Are you sure she's Egyptian? i've never seen any Egyptian that looks like her, in any case her type must be very rare, i doubt she represents any significant group in that area.
Evergreen Writes:
The whole point is that typology is pseudoscience.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Prince_of_punt: [QUOTE]Well that depends entirely on how you see globalisation ...
Evergreen Writes:
Excellent point. One should allways define ones terms in order to communicate clearly. Since you brought up the issue of globalization, how do you define this term?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Supercar: BTW, have you ever been to Egypt? Your comment suggests that you haven't
I've been in Egypt twice, My aunt has lived in cairo since before I was even born, the last time I was there I was only 11 years old, but still that doesn't make me less knowlegable of how modern Egyptians look like, and i can tell you the woman above is very rare in the Egyptian population, there is no way around that.
Anyone can say that they've been to Egypt over the internet; what you don't seem to be answering, was:
On what basis are you making this assessment [highlighted]?
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posted
If you seriously believe this woman has a phenotype that makes a significant part of the Egyptian population, then that's up to you, whatever rocks your boat man.
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: If you seriously believe this woman has a phenotype that makes a significant part of the Egyptian population, then that's up to you, whatever rocks your boat man.
If you knew what "rocks my boat", you would have answered my question pertaining to the basis on which you made your 'bio-anthropological' assessment. "Answering questions, addressing specifics, and being objective, is what "rocks my boat".
The matter of objectivity is not up to me; it is a requirement of scholarly and civil discourse. What you or I "believe" is irrelevant; what you can substantiate, is what is. This is not the 'law of the jungle', you know. For example, it is certainly up to me to believe you, if you said that 'pigs can fly', but then just ask yourself, does that make it really true?
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Yonis i completely understand what u are saying and u are right the majority of Egyptians do not look like her i dont know why anyone would disagree with what u are saying. But there are a few egyptians with those features i can not tell u that there are none but u are right its a very small amount.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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Yonis i completely understand what u are saying and u are right the majority of Egyptians do not look like her i dont know why anyone would disagree with what u are saying.
What do the 'majority' of Egyptians look like; what is this 'homogenous' look that this 'majority' have?
quote:Hikuptah:
But there are a few egyptians with those features i can not tell u that there are none but u are right its a very small amount.
Can you quantify "small amount", and what you base it on; as you might be aware Yonis claims that Egyptians with that woman's phenotype are "rare", even though he is looking at an Egyptian as he says this. Maybe you'll rise to the occasion of being objective, and provide answers to the outstanding questions.
Also...
How does this "small amount", that you'll soon substantiate, make one an Egyptian or not an Egyptian. In fact, what phenotype is considered "Egyptian" and what isn't?
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I don't think Djehuti was using that women as the streotypical modern Egyptian but to point out that phenotype exists. She is actually a Nubian but technically she is Egyptian. I don't really consider the Nubians seperate from most southern Egyptians except they are slightly darker but sometimes even lighter than a southern Egyptian.
You have to resember that southern Egypt is only about %30 of the total population in Egypt and that most Egyptians live in the Delta region. You will still find some people that might have her features but just a lighter complexion in the Delta.
quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Yonis i completely understand what u are saying and u are right the majority of Egyptians do not look like her i dont know why anyone would disagree with what u are saying. But there are a few egyptians with those features i can not tell u that there are none but u are right its a very small amount.
Exactly thats why sometimes talking to people here seems like talking to programmed robots, who only accept a certian code and dismiss anything outside the realm of that code, regardless how rational it sounds.
quote:Supercar: you would have answered my question pertaining to the basis on which you made your 'bio-anthropological' assessment. "Answering questions, addressing specifics, and being objective, is what "rocks my boat".
You know i'm not an "anthropologist", "geneticist", "archeologist" or "statician", so why are you expecting me to deliver such answers to the questions you ask? You only do this because cowardly you try to give me a task you know i can't meet! I can tell you i don't know the percentage of the different phenotypes of Egypt or the distribution among the population when it comes to looks, be it brown, light brown, yellow or blue black people: And for facial morphology, i don't know how many egyptians have broad or narrow faces.
But what i know is that the lady above "does not represent a significant group in Egypt" she belongs to a minority, and i don't need a "peer reviewd" paper to understand that, that's just the way it is. Maybe you could take the difficult task to prove that this lady's looks does not belong to a non-significant group in Egypt.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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I don't think Djehuti was using that women as the streotypical modern Egyptian but to point out that phenotype exists. She is actually a Nubian but technically she is Egyptian.
Are you basing this on phenotype alone, or some other factors are at play here?
"Stereotypically" Egyptians are equated with "Arabs" from southwest Asia in the U.S. and perhaps Europe, and may well face the same reactive 'geopolitical' attitudes afforded to folks from those regions, but this doesn't necessarily reflect the scientific reality on the ground. Hence, it is necessary to rely on objectivity than such 'subjective' assessments. "Nubia" as a geopolitical construct has never actually existed in history or prehistory, save for that implanted in the Eurocentric mind.
As to the question of being Egyptians, the so-called Nubians too are and have been as Egyptian as any other, and perhaps even more so than many of the descendants of foreign immigrants in the northern portions of the country.
Don't know if it was Doug M. or Myra, who showed examples of early 20th century photos of folks in upper Egypt, who wouldn't be out of place, in terms of phenotype, with these persons in that pic.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Are you basing this on phenotype alone, or some other factors are at play here?
No, I am basing it upon where the supposed picture originates which is from a website about Nubians and the Aswan dam. She could very well be an Aswani because lots of Aswani Egyptians look like her. Her attire does look different than the typical dress worn throughout Egypt also.
Supercar wrote:
quote:"Stereotypically" Egyptians are equated with "Arabs" from southwest Asia in the U.S. and perhaps Europe, and may well face the same reactive 'geopolitical' attitudes afforded to folks from those regions, but this doesn't necessarily reflect the scientific reality on the ground.
I understand that but I don't really care what the Western world or U.S. thinks of modern Egyptians. As an Egyptian myself[a rural one at that] I choice to identify myself by my own means instead of Western perceptions.
Supercar wrote:
quote:Hence, it is necessary to rely on objectivity than such 'subjective' assessments. "Nubia" as a geopolitical construct has never actually existed in history or prehistory, save for that implanted in the Eurocentric mind
I realize this but I am using Nubian in the modern sense and as away to identify people south of Aswan in Egypt. Maybe I should be more specific and refer to ''Nubian'' groups as their ethnic designation.
Supercar wrote:
quote:As to the question of being Egyptians, the so-called Nubians too are and have been as Egyptian as any other, and perhaps even more so than many of the descendants of foreign immigrants in the northern portions of the country
I agree with this except most ''Nubians'' within Egypt see themselves as seperate culturally,linguistically and even socially from most Egyptians with the exception of some Sa3eedi. Nubians choice to intermarry and live amongst their own group and prefer to assimilate into modern Egyptian society but keep their own idenity seperate from most Egyptians. I am simply reflecting on how Nubians see themselves. Certainly they are Egyptians but would consider themselves unique from most Egyptians.
Nubians even take the trouble to send their children to special schools where Nubian languages are taught.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Supercar: you would have answered my question pertaining to the basis on which you made your 'bio-anthropological' assessment. "Answering questions, addressing specifics, and being objective, is what "rocks my boat".
You know i'm not an "anthropologist", "geneticist", "archeologist", "statician", so why are you expecting me to deliver such answers to the questions you ask?
If you are capable of reading, you would have realized that I've already given the reasoning for my question. You made a 'bio-anthropological' assessment, and you were called on it. So the real question is, why do you make such assessments, when you know you aren't qualified to do so or suited for the task of doing so?
quote:Yonis:
You only do this because cowardly you try to give me a task you know i can't meet!
You make a statement and you are asked to substantiate it, but you don't deliver, and you are questioning 'my' guts? You've got to be joking. It is the yellow bellies [as you exemplify] who cannot confront the actual issues on the table, but 'cowardly' divert attention away from their responsibilities of answering to questionable claims, by attacking folks at a safe distance behind their computer screens, as you are doing at this moment.
quote:Yonis:
I can tell you i don't know the percentage of the different phenotypes of Egypt or the distribution among the population when it comes to looks, be it brown, light brown, yellow or blue black people:
Then how do you know that the phenotype exemplified in the person of the aforementioned image, is 'rare', if you are clueless about the 'percentage of different phenotypes of Egypt or the distribution among the population'? Again, you are diving into an arena that you are not competent enough to engage in. But let me guess: my questioning you here, makes me a 'coward', but your 'running away' from answering them, makes you real gutsy.
quote:Yonis:
And for facial morphology, i don't know how many egyptians have broad or narrow faces.
Goes back to the question I just asked above; I forgot - according to your 'rationale', confronting something makes an individual a coward, while running away from it, like a frantic chicken, makes an individual real gutsy. Talk about a warped world.
quote:Yonis:
But what i know is that the lady above "does not represent a significant group in Egypt" she belongs to a minority, and i don't need a "peer reviewd" paper to understand that, that's just the way it is.
That is what you "know", but what you don't 'know', is what basis that you made it on. Quite intelligent of you, Yonis.
quote:Yonis:
Maybe you could take the difficult task to prove that this lady's look does not belong to a non-significant group in Egypt.
...like a scenario, whereby if you made the claim that 'pigs can fly', that I'm supposed to prove it wrong? Simple then; the individual in the posted picture is an Egyptian. What more proof do I need than that. However, feel free to become 'cowardly' enough to answer the outstanding questions anytime soon, if you will. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Are you basing this on phenotype alone, or some other factors are at play here?
No, I am basing it upon where the supposed picture originates which is from a website about Nubians and the Aswan dam. She could very well be an Aswani because lots of Aswani Egyptians look like her. Her attire does look different than the typical dress worn throughout Egypt also.
Where was this picture "originally" posted? I know where "I" got it from, because I was the one who originally posted it here.
quote:ausar:
Supercar wrote:
quote:"Stereotypically" Egyptians are equated with "Arabs" from southwest Asia in the U.S. and perhaps Europe, and may well face the same reactive 'geopolitical' attitudes afforded to folks from those regions, but this doesn't necessarily reflect the scientific reality on the ground.
I understand that but I don't really care what the Western world or U.S. thinks of modern Egyptians. As an Egyptian myself[a rural one at that] I choice to identify myself by my own means instead of Western perceptions.
I was responding to your use of the term "stereotype", and making a point about it. I was hoping that the point would be apparent.
quote:ausar:
Supercar wrote:
quote:Hence, it is necessary to rely on objectivity than such 'subjective' assessments. "Nubia" as a geopolitical construct has never actually existed in history or prehistory, save for that implanted in the Eurocentric mind
I realize this but I am using Nubian in the modern sense and as away to identify people south of Aswan in Egypt. Maybe I should be more specific and refer to ''Nubian'' groups as their ethnic designation.
That would be welcome; it would enhance the understanding of folks like moi, who also have a cautious appraoch to the term "Nubian".
quote:ausar:
Supercar wrote:
quote:As to the question of being Egyptians, the so-called Nubians too are and have been as Egyptian as any other, and perhaps even more so than many of the descendants of foreign immigrants in the northern portions of the country
I agree with this except most ''Nubians'' within Egypt see themselves as seperate culturally,linguistically and even socially from most Egyptians with the exception of some Sa3eedi. Nubians choice to intermarry and live amongst their own group and prefer to assimilate into modern Egyptian society but keep their own idenity seperate from most Egyptians. I am simply reflecting on how Nubians see themselves. Certainly they are Egyptians but would consider themselves unique from most Egyptians.
So do the so-called "Afrangi" towards the "Fellahs". The self-indentified "Arab" elite populations of the northern regions of the country, don't exactly equate themselves with some groups from rural areas in Upper Egypt. In that respect, I think it is safe to suggest that they 'consider themselves unique' from those Egyptians.
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quote:Supercar: If you are capable of reading, you would have realized that I've already given the reasoning for my question. You made a 'bio-anthropological' assessment, and you were called on it. So the real question is, why do you make such assessments, when you know you aren't qualified to do so or suited for the task of doing so?
Seriously are you trying to tell me this woman represents a significant group in Egypt?
quote: ...like a scenario, whereby if you made the claim that 'pigs can fly', that I'm supposed to prove it wrong? Simple then; the individual in the posted picture is an Egyptian.
My claim is not such preposterous as "flyin pigs" but nice try though, I take it as a sign you can't challenge your own challenge. btw i never claimed the individual (above woman) was not Egyptian.
But please continue to protect your ego, despite the futility in this particular issue.
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quote:Supercar: If you are capable of reading, you would have realized that I've already given the reasoning for my question. You made a 'bio-anthropological' assessment, and you were called on it. So the real question is, why do you make such assessments, when you know you aren't qualified to do so or suited for the task of doing so?
Seriously are you trying to tell me this woman represents a significant group in Egypt?
Depends on what you mean by "significant"? But of course, you don't know this, because you admitted it earlier on, right? You simply use it illogically to divert the 'necessary' attention from your 'claims', to the 'unnecessary' attention of my need to answer something which doesn't pertain to anything I've said.
quote:Yonis:
quote: ...like a scenario, whereby if you made the claim that 'pigs can fly', that I'm supposed to prove it wrong? Simple then; the individual in the posted picture is an Egyptian.
My claim is not such preposterous as "flyin pigs" but nice try though
Thanks for the compliment, though there really wasn't much to 'try' about. It was simple enough, to show that your claim is that 'preposterous', because evidently, you have no idea what it is based on. To say that it is perhaps not even more preposterous than the "pigs can fly" claim, is an understatement.
quote:Yonis:
I take it as a sign you can't challenge your own challenge.
You mean the challenge to actually get you to answer the outstanding question, instead of driveling; yeap, it is proving to be a monumental one.
quote:Yonis:
btw i never claimed the individual (above woman) was not Egyptian.
Not that you'd say it anyway, for it doesn't help your claim about the "rarity" of her "penotype", which is funny, considering that you were looking at an Egyptian when making that very [unsubstantiated] claim.
quote:Yonis: But please continue to protect your ego, despite the futility in this particular issue.
Well yonis, this was about your "statement"; however, that you've chosen to make it about "me", by personally attacking me, speaks volumes about your mental stability. I suggest you seek to resolve that problem, before trying to see if you can "psycho-analyze" people from behind your computer screen.
Though not necessarily pertaining to you, this is the same sort of thing that a certain notorious e-coward does, playing the game of 'pycho-analyzing' others in his own image from sitting at a safe distance behind his crude computer screen, thinking that other people have the same state of mind, i.e. one of sheer gutlessness.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Supercar: Though not necessarily pertaining to you, this is the same sort of thing that a certain notorious e-coward does, playing the game of 'pycho-analyzing' others in his own image from sitting at a safe distance behind his crude computer screen, thinking that other people have the same state of mind, i.e. one of sheer gutlessness.
Are you OK?? Trust me i'm Yonis, there is no stalker behind my nick who tries to 'pycho-analyzing' you or anyone for that matter, through the internet. I'm starting to get worried about you Supercar. Please share with us, who is this "e-coward" you seem to worry about? Is someone stalking you??
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Supercar: Though not necessarily pertaining to you, this is the same sort of thing that a certain notorious e-coward does, playing the game of 'pycho-analyzing' others in his own image from sitting at a safe distance behind his crude computer screen, thinking that other people have the same state of mind, i.e. one of sheer gutlessness.
Are you OK??
Yes, thank you , but are you?
quote:Yonis:
Trust me i'm Yonis, there is no stalker behind my nick who tries to 'pycho-analyzing' you or anyone for that matter, through the internet. I'm starting to get worried about you Supercar. Please share with us, who is this "e-coward" you seem to worry about? Is someone stalking you??
Calm down man, can't you read? I've already made it known that it doesn't particularly pertain to you; I only mentioned it, because your behavior reminded me of some poster here...and if you are that person, then surely you'd know what I'm talking about. If you don't know, then no need to stress yourself over the remark, because then it doesn't pertain to you.
Now, let's get back to the point of you answering that simple question I asked earlier; how about it?! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Suffice to say, I understand what Supercar is trying to say. Egyptians are diverse and many Egyptians have phenotypes that look similar to that girls, even in complexion. Using modern Northern Egyptians in general as being the MORE indigenous to the Nile valley than the girl in the photo is NONSENSE.
Firstly, as has been said here by many on many occasions, the North was not always the center of population and culture in Egypt. Modern Egypt with its focus of culture, power and people is just the OPPOSITE of ancient Egypt. In ancient dynastic Egypt the centers of power, culture and population originated in the SOUTH and were focused there. It was only during the invasions of the Greeks and Romans that the North was made the imperial capital and the Arabs were to create Cairo for their capital city. All of which are purely foreign creations to serve the purpose of FOREIGN control over the native population. THEREFORE, the MODERN concept of Nubian in Egypt is akin to the difference between American Indians and other Americans. One group identifies with the ancient INDIGENOUS culture and people prior to the invasion of foreigners, the other identifies mainly with the modern foreign derived culture and population. Nubian in that sense is also a synonym for ancient Egyptian as the ABORIGINAL culture and population of the Nile prior to foreign conquest. Especially when you consider that Egyptian culture arose in what is now called the Nubian areas of Egypt. Therefore, the girl in the photo is MORE indigenous to the Nile than those partly descended from foreigners who migrated to Egypt within the last 2,000 years. Nevertheless, 2,000 years is a long time and allows even those who are derived from foreign migration to claim to be "indigenous". Compare that with American history, where European Americans can only claim 4-500 years of European presence in America and only 300 years of a European state. Yet in that SAME time frame the inigenous population of the Americas was almost COMPLETELY wiped out and replaced with a European derived population. So, are Indians LESS American than European Americans?
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Suffice to say, I understand what Supercar is trying to say. Egyptians are diverse and many Egyptians have phenotypes that look similar to that girls, even in complexion...
As a matter of fact, I am saying that.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
We all know that Egyptians are Diverse but the lady in the picture is a Nubian and as Ausar said Nubians separate themselves and dont really associate with Egyptians im From Aswan and there are alot of Nubians but they really dont mix with saeedi egyptians and tend to be separate from egyptians culturally socially & lingustically they are different.
Not all Egyptians are Nubians and Not all Egyptians are Beja & Nubians are not Saeedi and Saeedi are not Nubians.
Supercar why dont u say Saeedis and Beja are the same people when u know they are not Most Modern Egyptians look nothing like Beja or Nubians.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Today, The furtherst Bantu presence north is southern Somalia, southern Ethiopia, Southern Sudan etc. And limited in Central Africa by the Ubangi river and of course there are still Bantu languages left in the Cameroon border where they originated.
There are no Niger-Congo speakers in Ethiopia. There might be some refugees, but the only language branches represented in the 1994 census were Afrasian (99% - Mainly Semitic and Cushitic, and about 10% Omotic) and Nilo-Saharan (1%).
Some data from Grover Hudson (total population at the time 54 million):
quote:Where was this picture "originally" posted? I know where "I" got it from, because I was the one who originally posted it here
Yes, the picture is from an website you posted about Nubians and the Aswan dam. Understand, I understand your point about the picture of the women and agree that there are Egyptians that look like her. I also emphasized that I consider Nubians Egyptians also and we do have a shared culture but Nubians have a unique idenity of their own.
Supercar wrote:
quote:That would be welcome; it would enhance the understanding of folks like moi, who also have a cautious appraoch to the term "Nubian"
The problem is I don't know what ''Nubian'' ethnic group she belongs to wheater its Kenuzi,Nobiin,Dongolan,Fadija. Some of these words like Fadija is simply a Nubian word for farmer.
quote:So do the so-called "Afrangi" towards the "Fellahs". The self-indentified "Arab" elite populations of the northern regions of the country, don't exactly equate themselves with some groups from rural areas in Upper Egypt. In that respect, I think it is safe to suggest that they 'consider themselves unique' from those Egyptians
This is actually quite more complex than I intially stated because you also have Fallahin in both the Delta and in southern Egypt. Fallahin that migrate into the city live in certain sections people know as balady.
Lots of the Afrangi[an Arabic word meaning a Frank but generally applied to most Westeners] have Egyptian origins but have mixed heavily with Turkish or Westeners. Some are of completely Turkish origin. They look down on traditional ''baladi'',fellah,and Sa3eedi culture and love Western culture. Then again some Fallahin in the Delta have non-Egyptian ancestry mixed in but still identify with the traditional culture.
The traditional elite in Egypt do look down upon Fallahin,Baladi and Sa3eedis.
Just to note the singular is Fallah or plural Fallahin.
Know the Fallahin view their existence as their village and consider most people outside their villages to be foreign. Most would not understand this unless you are a Fallah yourself. They really are attached to their village existence.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Nope; not 'all' of us are aware of the diversity, which is why we get claims here like, so and so doesn't look like an 'Egyptian', so and so's phenotype is 'rare' in Egypt. This thread is proof of this.
quote:Hikuptah:
but the lady in the picture is a Nubian and as Ausar said Nubians separate themselves and dont really associate with Egyptians im From Aswan and there are alot of Nubians but they really dont mix with saeedi egyptians
So do the "Afrangi" groups, who tend to dissassociate themselves from the "Fellaheen", and perhaps the self-identified "Arabs" of the region in general, who don't equate themselves with the general 'darker skin' Egyptians either. So what is your point; that this disqualifies one's indigenousness as "Egyptian"?
quote:Hikuptah:
and tend to be separate from egyptians culturally socially & lingustically they are different.
See post above, and by the use of your term "egyptians" as a separate entity, are you on the record, prepared to say that the so-called "Nubians" of Egypt, aren't Egyptians?
quote:Hikuptah:
Not all Egyptians are Nubians and Not all Egyptians are Beja & Nubians are not Saeedi and Saeedi are not Nubians.
From the looks of things, it is you who is implying such, by making seem that there is this "homogenous" entity in Egypt, that is separate from the so-called "Nubians". Are you now prepared to back away from your earlier claim, if that was your premises?
quote:Hikuptah:
Supercar why dont u say Saeedis and Beja are the same people when u know they are not Most Modern Egyptians look nothing like Beja or Nubians.
Let me see...yeap, because it would be stupid to say so, and the question doesn't really have anything to do with what I've said. We call the behavior of placing 'non-existent' claims into the mouth of another, as way to produce a pseudo-argument so that it can then be knocked down, a 'strawman'. You should perhaps be asking yourself this question, because it is in your claims, that we come across what appears to be a homogenous "Egyptian" entity, and a separate [presumably "non-Egyptian"] pseudo-entity known as "Nubians".
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
Supercar wrote:
quote:Where was this picture "originally" posted? I know where "I" got it from, because I was the one who originally posted it here
Yes, the picture is from an website you posted about Nubians and the Aswan dam. Understand, I understand your point about the picture of the women and agree that there are Egyptians that look like her. I also emphasized that I consider Nubians Egyptians also and we do have a shared culture but Nubians have a unique idenity of their own.
So do the "Arab" Egyptians, and the various "fellaheen" across the nation, unless of course, you are prepared to say that everyone in the country identify as "Arabs".
quote:ausar:
Supercar wrote:
quote:That would be welcome; it would enhance the understanding of folks like moi, who also have a cautious appraoch to the term "Nubian"
The problem is I don't know what ''Nubian'' ethnic group she belongs to wheater its Kenuzi,Nobiin,Dongolan,Fadija. Some of these words like Fadija is simply a Nubian word for farmer.
Which is why I still see this term "Nubian" as a ruse, because I doubt that each of these ethnic groups actually call themselves "Nubians". Do these ethnic groups marry outside of their respective ethnic entity?
quote:ausar:
quote:So do the so-called "Afrangi" towards the "Fellahs". The self-indentified "Arab" elite populations of the northern regions of the country, don't exactly equate themselves with some groups from rural areas in Upper Egypt. In that respect, I think it is safe to suggest that they 'consider themselves unique' from those Egyptians
This is actually quite more complex than I intially stated because you also have Fallahin in both the Delta and in southern Egypt.
I was aware of this.
quote:ausar:
Fallahin that migrate into the city live in certain sections people know as balady.
Lots of the Afrangi[an Arabic word meaning a Frank but generally applied to most Westeners] have Egyptian origins but have mixed heavily with Turkish or Westeners. Some are of completely Turkish origin. They look down on traditional ''baladi'',fellah,and Sa3eedi culture and love Western culture.
Precisely, and hence, see themselves as 'unique' from the others. Does this make them any more "Egyptian" than any other group, who chose to be conservative, in terms of marriages along ethnic lines and socio-ethnic identity? Does this not shatter into pieces, the notion of the 'homogenous' Egyptian entity and a singular 'non-Egyptian' entity of Egypt called "Nubians", that some would have us believe here?
quote:ausar:
Then again some Fallahin in the Delta have non-Egyptian ancestry mixed in but still identify with the traditional culture.
The traditional elite in Egypt do look down upon Fallahin,Baladi and Sa3eedis.
Goes back to the point I just made. Please see post above.
quote:ausar:
Just to note the singular is Fallah or plural Fallahin.
It may seem subtle to you that I knew this, from the way I wrote "Fellah**s**". I would agree that this would perhaps be an awkward way of applying English grammar to a non-English term.
quote:ausar:
Know the Fallahin view their existence as their village and consider most people outside their villages to be foreign. Most would not understand this unless you are a Fallah yourself. They really are attached to their village existence.
In a nutshell, Ausar, this is a perfect example that it is ridiculous to apply a 'questionable' singular construct by the term "Nubians", as separate from a "homogenous" Egyptian entity, whereby there are no ethnic or class identity differences in the latter. And again, the so-called "Nubians" have always been in Egypt, but for some reason, as implied by some of the posts herein, these are the people who've come to be considered outsiders, even with respect to those who just recently or post-predynastic period had come to the region; why is that? Doug's question on this made sense, and interestingly enough, it was never answered. The region so-called "Nubia" and the inhabitants therein had "been" in that Nile Valley region, since both the pre-dynastic and post-dynastic era.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:On average they have broader features than Somalis,Beja and people from the Horn of Africa. Also they tend to have more tightly curled hair.
Really? Considering how often "Horners" are invoked to refute the claim that the fine features seen in some Egyptian art could only be associated with skin too fair to be called "black", I feel surprised that southern Egyptians had more "broad" characteristics than even these populations. I suppose it makes sense though, since Sudan, where the broad phenotype seems to predominate (keep in mind that I make this judgement from photos I've seen) is connected to southern Egypt via a certain river that connects sub-Saharan to North Africa.
posted
^^^ The nubian people in general have broader features as compared to Cushetics of the horn.
The Egyptians were most likely related to Cushetics, but also highly mixed with the nubians due to intermarriage through out the dynasty' as it has been proved on this thread time and time again.
-------------------- Hello! Posts: 265 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Prince_of_punt: The Egyptians were most likely related to Cushetics, but also highly mixed with the nubians due to intermarriage through out the dynasty' as it has been proved on this thread time and time again.
Evergreen Writes:
Actually this HAS NOT been proven. What HAS been poven is that the Ancient Egyptians derived from people from the Horn of Africa and the Sahara to a great extent. The people of the Sahara had affinities with other Africans with broader features. We should also bear in mind that the people from the Horn of Africa have diverse features from Somalians to those we see in the Omo Valley.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Prince_of_punt: ^^^ The nubian people in general have broader features as compared to Cushetics of the horn.
Cultural elements of dynastic Egypt like the royal regalia, and some burial customs have been found in so-called "Nubia" [which really also extended well into Egypt], while other customs, related to pottery elements and "mummification", have been correlated to the Sahara. Ancient Egytians had more in common with the so-called "Nubia" than the Horn of Africa.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Prince_of_punt: The Egyptians were most likely related to Cushetics, but also highly mixed with the nubians due to intermarriage through out the dynasty' as it has been proved on this thread time and time again.
Evergreen Writes:
Actually this HAS NOT been proven. What HAS been poven is that the Ancient Egyptians derived from people from the Horn of Africa and the Sahara to a great extent. The people of the Sahara had affinities with other Africans with broader features. We should also bear in mind that the people from the Horn of Africa have diverse features from Somalians to those we see in the Omo Valley.
Correct, the horn is inhabated by diverse African groups.
Ancient Egypt was most likely just a mixture of these groups which have been diluted by eurasion ancestory of recent (ie, Turkish, Arab etc etc)
Posts: 265 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Correct, the horn is inhabated by diverse African groups.
Ancient Egypt was most likely just a mixture of these groups which have been diluted by eurasion ancestory of recent (ie, Turkish, Arab etc etc)
I take it that your are not zoning out the fact that the ancient Nile Valley was a complex 'mixture' of both Saharan elements and populations who were living up the Nile. If you are, what is your evidence to the contrary?
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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